Is genetics that relevant when talking about phenotypes?

[Oliver109]

I was thinking the other day about how people who are genetically similar can look radically different, you can for example have a gracile med and alpine blend from southern France or Italy who is closer to a very blonde Dane or Dutch with CM influence than they would be to someone who looks very similar to them from say Lebanon or Iran, that makes me think that genetics only tells a bit of the story.

[lei.talk]

you are correct:


the social media genetics typically shared on-line
is designed to emphasise genetic similarity of groups
and encourage individuals to purchase a test
and participate in the discussion



which lures more persons to purchase tests
and share in the discussion.

remember what preceded this solution:
a lengthy debate regarding the legality
of requiring this testing


and to what use the results could be applied.



now, persons voluntarily finance the research
and surrender all rights to the information.

to answer your question: genetics tell the entire story
and is completely consistent with the taxonomy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy) of humans.


the specific genetic material that dictates unique human taxonomical attributes
is not usually included in the social media genetic test results
(because it is the group/genus which is of interest
not the uniqueness/differentia).

https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png


https://i.imgur.com/oNKUcs2.gif

[Smeagol]

Physical anthropology is much more useful because only a small amount of genes actually determine phenotype.

[Oliver109]

Physical anthropology is much more useful because only a small amount of genes actually determine phenotype.

That's true because some phenotypes can adapt or remain unchanged over a long period.

[Tooting Carmen]

Only up to a point. After all, even genetically close-to-identical siblings can look very different from one another.

[true_southron]

I was thinking the other day about how people who are genetically similar can look radically different, you can for example have a gracile med and alpine blend from southern France or Italy who is closer to a very blonde Dane or Dutch with CM influence than they would be to someone who looks very similar to them from say Lebanon or Iran, that makes me think that genetics only tells a bit of the story.

Other extreme is also possible. You can have someone with light skin, eyes, hair, but autosomally falls more to the south.

[Creoda]

pheno·type
[ˈfiːnə(ʊ)tʌɪp]
NOUN
BIOLOGY
the set of observable characteristics of an individual resulting from the interaction of its genotype with the environment.

Yes, totally.

[Oliver109]

Other extreme is also possible. You can have someone with light skin, eyes, hair, but autosomally falls more to the south.

Indeed like some of the Afghans posted here.

[Oliver109]

Only up to a point. After all, even genetically close-to-identical siblings can look very different from one another.

You see it in Wales especially, i was surprised how Nordid some Welsh can look while others would pass unnoticed in Syria.

[Tooting Carmen]

You see it in Wales especially, i was surprised how Nordid some Welsh can look while others would pass unnoticed in Syria.

Isn't it the opposite: given Wales is in Northern Europe, shouldn't the more Med-looking ones be the more 'surprising'?

[rothaer]

[Is genetics that relevant when talking about phenotypes?] I was thinking the other day about how people who are genetically similar can look radically different, you can for example have a gracile med and alpine blend from southern France or Italy who is closer to a very blonde Dane or Dutch with CM influence than they would be to someone who looks very similar to them from say Lebanon or Iran, that makes me think that genetics only tells a bit of the story.

It's exactly the other way around: The look is based on the genetics and tells only a bit of the story (the whole genetics).

(The question would then be: Is phenotype (in looks) that relevant when talking about genetics?
And the answer is no.)

[Oliver109]

Isn't it the opposite: given Wales is in Northern Europe, shouldn't the more Med-looking ones be the more 'surprising'?

Not really because France is close and the main source of blondeness is quite a long way over in northern Holland, Denmark, Norway while considerably brunet populations are found as far north as the Loire Valley in France.

[Tooting Carmen]

It's exactly the other way around: The look is based on the genetics and tells just a (tiny) bit of the story (the whole genetics).

The question would then be: Is phenotype (in looks) that relevant when talking about genetics?

And the answer is no.

I kind of agree with that. Here are two fully Jewish men:
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D090/production/_86929335_shapps_bbc.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Official_portrait_of_Rt_Hon_Edward_Miliband_MP_cro p_2.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

Not really because France is close and the main source of blondeness is quite a long way over in northern Holland, Denmark, Norway while considerably brunet populations are found as far north as the Loire Valley in France.

Since when did you start darkwashing the French? In the past you used to say how different they are to Spaniards, now it seems the opposite. (The truth is somewhere in between).

[Oliver109]

I kind of agree with that. Here are two fully Jewish men:
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D090/production/_86929335_shapps_bbc.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Official_portrait_of_Rt_Hon_Edward_Miliband_MP_cro p_2.jpg

Some populations express more variety in phenotypes than others, Afghans seem much more diverse than most Pakistanis, Tajiks much more diverse than Kyrgiz.

[rothaer]

I kind of agree with that. Here are two fully Jewish men:
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/D090/production/_86929335_shapps_bbc.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Official_portrait_of_Rt_Hon_Edward_Miliband_MP_cro p_2.jpg

In particular the experience shows that they will genetically score very similarly.

[Tooting Carmen]

In particular the experience shows that they will genetically score very similarly.

Exactly.

[Oliver109]

Since when did you start darkwashing the French? In the past you used to say how different they are to Spaniards, now it seems the opposite. (The truth is somewhere in between).

I think i have always darkwashed the French and i still hold that they are generally considerably lighter than Spaniards without the more Kurdish passing types, even in Lyon i saw probably more blondes than in London let alone Madrid.

[rothaer]

Exactly.

Nobody really knew this before the era of DNA sequencing.

[Tooting Carmen]

I think i have always darkwashed the French and i still hold that they are generally considerably lighter than Spaniards without the more Kurdish passing types, even in Lyon i saw probably more blondes than in London let alone Madrid.

Possibly because London is only slightly over 50% White?

[Oliver109]

Possibly because London is only slightly over 50% White?

Indeed but that shows that even in Frances biggest cities the population still seems mainly native while in central London especially you have to go to the financial district to see even 30% of native Brits.

[Tooting Carmen]

Indeed but that shows that even in Frances biggest cities the population still seems mainly native while in central London especially you have to go to the financial district to see even 30% of native Brits.

Well the City of London and Canary Wharf are full of rich (albeit predominantly White) foreigners too. From what I understand, the most White British boroughs of London are: Richmond, Kingston, Sutton, Bromley, Bexley and Havering. Possibly Merton too.

[Oliver109]

Well the City of London and Canary Wharf are full of rich (albeit predominantly White) foreigners too. From what I understand, the most White British boroughs of London are: Richmond, Kingston, Sutton, Bromley, Bexley and Havering. Possibly Merton too.

Employees in the City might be 50% fully white British, anyway in most of central London Brits are very much in a minority on the streets.

[Bat_]

Doesn't matter since phenotype classification is pseudoscience.

[Tooting Carmen]

Here are two Spanish women, who chances are would be genetically very close to one another:
https://static.infofamouspeople.com/avatar/bn2o4biet7gmomnou6n0_headshots_esther-canadas-2.jpghttps://media.gettyimages.com/photos/rocio-munoz-morales-attends-the-65th-taormina-film-fest-2019-ceremony-picture-id1159280086?s=612x612

[Immanenz]

No not really, genetics has like 1 percent correlation at most, for example beakers or bronze age isle people were genetically closest to scandanvia yet looked absolutely nothing like them

Actually when you take Irish most common phenotypes: Keltic N., North Atlantid and those various Cm types which are basically Bell Beakers and survivors of preceding cultures- you find a few similarities which are not coincidences.

This supposed dark Welsh type looks almost like a Hallstatt Nordid Swede bar he is a bit smaller and graciler:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/PSM_V52_D180_Brunette_welsh_type.jpg

[rothaer]

No not really, genetics has like 1 percent correlation at most, for example beakers or bronze age isle people were genetically closest to scandanvia yet looked absolutely nothing like them

Well, the look is 100% determined by the genetics, isn't it? I think that depency can not seriously be questioned. So the correlation between the look and the genetics responisble for that look will be essentially 100%.

But the correlation to all other genetics will be close to zero because the traits are passed down independently of each other.

The crucial point is that the DNA (the passed down segments over generations) is fine grained. If it would have been rough grained, say, chromosomes would habe no crossing-over, then the reality would be more in line with earlier imaginations that you have kind of fixated trait combinations in looks, mentality etc. You still have this regarding populations that have been isolated from each others but not regarding different athropological types within the same population.

[Immanenz]

Well, the look is 100% determined by the genetics, isn't it? I think that depency can not seriously be questoned. So the correlation between the look and the genetics responisble for that look will be essentially 100%.

But the correlation to all other genetics will be close to zero because the traits are passed down independently of each other.



I think people arent critical enough here what creates actually a phenotype- not very long time ago "Caucasians" looked very similar to each other and than they seperated and created greater diversity.

[ecptr]

Is it possible to isolate DNA responsible for physical appearance from the rest of DNA for the use in Gedmatch?

[Tooting Carmen]

I think people arent critical enough here what creates actually a phenotype- not very long time ago "Caucasians" looked very similar to each other and than they seperated and created greater diversity.

Is it more that people in West Asia, North Africa and to an extent Southern Europe got darker over time due to other admixtures, or that Northern Europeans in particular got lighter over time due to climate adaptation?

[rothaer]

Is it more that people in West Asia, North Africa and to an extent Southern Europe got darker over time due to other admixtures, or that Northern Europeans in particular got lighter over time due to climate adaptation?

Both and it went somewhat forth and back. F. i. the current far going depigmentation of Scandinavians is a somewhat late development and went on after the Viking Age even. But I actually see no climate adaption in that. You get no climate adaption by blue eyes.

[rothaer]

Is it possible to isolate DNA responsible for physical appearance from the rest of DNA for the use in Gedmatch?

A good question. A number of alleles have multiple functions (hence also some phenotypical traits might be co-selected by completely other functions like immunology etc.). But you could restrict a SNP collection to such alleles, yes.

Is an allel giving you appetite and thus making you statistically fatter also DNA responsible for physical appearance in the sense of what you have in mind? If so, it will be hard to draw a limiting line for such DNA.

[nittionia]

You get no climate adaption by blue eyes.

This is very secretive information that only blue eyed people can talk about

[lei.talk]

what do they have in common? Nothing



https://i.imgur.com/GtRZZrQ.png (https://www.ostarapublications.com/product/race-and-racial-differences/)

Chapter One: An Introduction to Race

A summary of the history of racial differentiation and the development of the science of DNA, with the latter definitively proving the link between biology and race, including physical appearance.


· Racial Descriptions from the Ancient World


· The Development of Scientific Race Classification


· Race-Denial Emerges after 1945


· Emergence of Genetic Science Undercuts Race-Denial Theory


· History of the Science of DNA


· DNA Testing Companies Divide Globe into Seven “Major Populations”


· Law Enforcement uses DNA to Identify Race and Create Identikits


· Genetics Makes a Final Definition of Race Possible: A Group with Common DNA.

Chapter 2: The Structure of Human DNA

A comprehensive but easily understandable overview human genetics, and of how racial differences are generated by specific genes.


· Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA): Nucleobases, Nucleotides, and Polynucleotides


· Haplotypes: X, Y, and mtDNA and Autosomal DNA (atDNA)


· Chromosomes, Genes, Alleles, and Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs)


· Race is the Product of Variations in Alleles and SNPS

Chapter Three: Race Defined by Y And mtDNA Haplotype Groups

An overview of the world’s major Y and mtDNA Haplogroups—which are passed paternally and maternally in a never-changing line—and how they separate mankind into seven geographical regions.


· Y-Chromosome Family Trees by Geographic Origin


· Y-DNA Haplogroups (and subclades)


· Y-DNA Haplogroups Divide Humans into Seven Major Geographical Categories


· mtDNA-Chromosome Family Trees by Geographic Origin


· mtDNA Haplogroups (and subclades)


· mtDNA Haplogroups Divide Humans into Seven Major Geographical Categories

Chapter Four: Race Defined by Autosomal DNA

The exact process whereby Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) create physical and psychological differences which manifest themselves as seven major racial groups.


· The Role of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) in Shaping Racial Differences


· SNP Analysis Divides World’s Population into Seven Distinct Categories


· SNP Analysis Links Geography to Racial Delineation

Chapter Five: Race and Racial Differences Created at the Gene and SNP Level

An explanation of how the different geographic distribution levels of certain genes and Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) create the physical and psychological differences which manifest themselves as racial groups.


· List of Defining Racial Characteristics: Skin color, eye color, hair color, hair texture, skull shape, skeletal structure, psychological differences, and intelligence.


· Race Created through Different Geographical Concentration of SNPs and Genes

Chapter Six: The Genes Which Determine Racial Differences in Skin, Eye, and Hair Color; Hair Texture and Shape

A complete listing of the exact genes and SNPS which cause racial differences in hair texture, skin, eye, and hair color, broken down by racial category.


· Skin Color: The Genetics of Melanin Production


· Different SNPs Create Different Skin Tones in Europeans, Mongoloids, Sub-Saharan Africans, and San (“Bushmen”)


· The Genetics of Hair Color: The Genes which Cause Black, Brown, Blond and Red Hair


· The Genetics of Hair Texture: The Genes which Cause “Round” European Hair, “Oval” Asian Hair, and “Flat” African Hair


· The Genes Which Cause Blue, Brown, and Black Eyes—and the Ranges In Between

Chapter Seven: The Genes Which Determine Racial Differences in Skull Structure and Facial Features

An analysis of racial differences in skull shape and all facial structure, along with a complete list of the SNPs and genes responsible for these physical differences.


· Differences in Skull Shapes are used by Forensic Anthropologists to Determine Race


· The Genes which are Responsible for Different Racial Skull Shapes


· The Genes Which Determine Face Shape, Nose Shape, Eye Position, and All Other Facial Features


· The Genes Which Cause Epicanthic Folds in Certain Asian Racial Subgroups

Chapter Eight: The Genes Which Determine Racial Differences in Skeletal Structure

A complete overview of the major differences in skeletal structure, bone density, height, and other forensically known attributes used to determine race, and the individual genes responsible for these differences.


· The Limit of Environment Upon Skeletal Development


· Average Height by Race


· The Genes Which Determine Height


· Racial Differences in Height Caused by Specific Gene Differences


· Physical Differences in Skeletal Structure as Used by Forensic Specialists and Anthropologists to Determine Race


· Racial Skeletal Physical Differences Include Limb to Torso Ratios, Bone Density and Strength

Chapter Nine: The Genes Which Determine Racial Differences in Intelligence

An analysis of IQ scores by racial group, with a complete listing of the specific SNPs and gene locations responsible for intelligence—and how these SNPs are unequally distributed among the races.


· Intelligence Quotient (IQ) Scores and Environment


· IQ Scores by Race from Around the World


· Advances in Genetics Explain Racial IQ Differences


· The Genes which Determine Brain Size and Function


· The SNPs which Determine Intelligence


· Racial Differences in Genetics Linked to Racial Differences in Intelligence


· List of the Most Important SNPs Affecting Intelligence—and Their Unequal Distribution among the Races

Chapter Ten: The Genes Which Determine Racial Differences in Psychology

An overview of two of the most important differences in psychology which affect the functioning of society: the mental illness of schizophrenia, and the levels of violent criminality. The specific genes link to schizophrenia and violent criminality are identified, and their unequal distribution by race detailed.


· The Genes which Determine Schizophrenia


· Genetic Link between Schizophrenia, Low Intelligence, and Criminal Activity


· The Specific Genetic Basis of Schizophrenia


· Racial Differences in Schizophrenia Rates


· MAOA: The “Aggression” Gene


· Genetics Reveals MAOA Gene More Prevalent in Africans

Chapter Eleven: The Seven Major Races Named

The division by genetics of mankind into seven major categories allows these seven groups to be named according to their geographic territories or language families. Each of these major racial groups have subgroups within them, but all share genetic commonality.


· Region: Europe. Racial group name: “Europid.”


· Region: Africa (sub-Saharan). Racial group name: “Negroid.”


· Region: East Asia. Racial group name: “Mongoloid.”


· Region: Central Asia. Racial group name: “Indo-Iranoid.”


· Region: Middle East. Racial group name: “Semitic.”


· Region: Oceania. Racial group name: “Australoid.”


· Region: Americas. Racial group name: “Amerindians.”

Chapter Twelve: The Seven Major Races—A Typological Overview

A comprehensive and illustrated overview of the seven major races of the world and their subgroups. Includes physical descriptions, IQ levels, and geographic locations.


· The Cephalic Index as a Measure of Race


· Facial Features as a Measure of Race


· 1. Europid. Subraces: Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean


· 2. Negroid. Subraces: Bantu, San or Khoi


· 3. Semitic. Subrace: Jews:


· 4. Indo-Iranoids. Subraces: Dravidian, Pre-Dravidian, Iranoid


· 5. Mongoloid. Subraces: Han Chinese, Mongols, Yayoi, Far North Asiatic


· 6. Australoid. Subraces: Negrito, Aborigine, Bornean, Maori, Polynesian


· 7. Amerindian. Subraces: Far North Amerind, Northern Amerind, Central Amerind, Southern Amerind, Far South Amerind

Chapter Thirteen: Five Common Racial Myths Debunked

The five most used racial myths spread by race deniers, analyzed and rebutted with data and statistics.


· “All humans are 99 percent genetically the same, so there is no genetic difference.”


· “Race has no basis in biology.”


· “Race is a social construct.”


· “Race is only skin deep.”


· “Racial differences in intelligence are explained by socio-economic factors.”
https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png


https://i.imgur.com/JU55Mid.png (https://youtu.be/Vic_-wDuk3c)https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png

[Hektor12]

that makes me think that genetics only tells a bit of the story.

In my country we have a lot of full siblings, one looking Blond Scandinavian the other looking local etc. Genetics tell you thefull story and full story is very clear=

*Phenotypes are lottery
*You can only win something which is in the basket

[ecptr]

A good question. A number of alleles have multiple functions (hence also some phenotypical traits might be co-selected by completely other functions like immunology etc.). But you could restrict a SNP collection to such alleles, yes.

Is an allel giving you appetite and thus making you statistically fatter also DNA responsible for physical appearance in the sense of what you have in mind? If so, it will be hard to draw a limiting line for such DNA.

When looking at the whole genome, a Norwegian is closer to an Irishman than to a German. But if the parts of DNA responsible for physical appearance will be isolated from the rest of DNA, in theory a Norwegian can end up closer to a German than to an Irishman.

[rothaer]

This is very secretive information that only blue eyed people can talk about

Maybe those with only one OCA2 gene can become admitted to an intermediate state of enlightment, considering that they, however, with some luck can breed full illuminates? :halo:

[rothaer]

This is very secretive information that only blue eyed people can talk about

Btw. I just realised that you also directly answered the thread question ("Is genetics that relevant when talking about phenotypes?").

[nittionia]

Btw. I just realised that you also directly answered the thread question ("Is genetics that relevant when talking about phenotypes?").

Who's the real lawyer here? :coffee:

[Touijer]

I'm 99% confident haplogroup plays a part in phenotype, autosomal does play a huge part in the skin color, eye color and physical traits but haplogroup plays a part in phenotype

[Abti]

I'm 99% confident haplogroup plays a part in phenotype, autosomal does play a huge part in the skin color, eye color and physical traits but haplogroup plays a part in phenotype

Hmm. Examples that haplogroups play a part in phenotype?

[Touijer]

Hmm. Examples that haplogroups play a part in phenotype?

Simple exemple.

A mix between a Male Lion and a Female Tiger is called the Liger

A mix between a Male Tiger and a Female Lion is called a Tigon

They're both animals with the same set of parents, Lion and Tiger and we know animals also have XY Chromosomes. Normally, they should look the same but that's not the case.

This is the Liger who's father is the Lion

123899

If you look at his head you will see that he looks very similar to a lion. We also know that Lions are taller then Tiger so let's look at his length and size

Wikipedia says:
Males reach a total length of 3 to 3.6 m (9.8 to 11.8 ft) Ligerworld.com says:
A Male Liger usually weighs around 900 to 1000 pounds

This is one of the tallest animals. Now let's take a look at the Tigon who's father is a Tiger

https://www.ligerworld.com/tigons/tigon-hybrid-tiger-lioness.jpg

Looks very similar to a Tiger

Let's take a look at his length and size

Study.com says:
Tigons range between 4-9 feet long and weigh between 200-500 pounds

Much smaller then the liger

You can draw your own conclusions

[ToySoldierEnthusiast]

People underestimate how genes can effect your phenotype

Do people honestly believe a nigerian+german admixture is going to look more european then a italian+german mix?

[Katarzyna]

I'm 99% confident haplogroup plays a part in phenotype, autosomal does play a huge part in the skin color, eye color and physical traits but haplogroup plays a part in phenotype

Well, haplogroups indeed play a role because most people belong to one of the haplogroups (and Subclade) associated with their ethnicity. For example we oftentimes have an idea of how a G1,G2,J1,J2 person looks like compared to a European R1a,R1b,I1 and I2. But it doesn't always have to be the case. There are for example many Mediterraneans who can be either R1a or R1b people but looking similar to their G2 or J2 counterparts. And for example half of Finnish people are haplogroup N, same as some mongoloid north Asians, and yet they look overall European, because that's what over 97% of their autosomal DNA is. So autosomal DNA plays a more important role.

[Touijer]

Well, haplogroups indeed play a role because most people belong to one of the haplogroups (and Subclade) associated with their ethnicity. For example we oftentimes have an idea of how a G1,G2,J1,J2 person looks like compared to a European R1a,R1b,I1 and I2. But it doesn't always have to be the case. There are for example many Mediterraneans who can be either R1a or R1b people but looking similar to their G2 or J2 counterparts. And for example half of Finnish people are haplogroup N, same as some mongoloid north Asians, and yet they look overall European, because that's what over 97% of their autosomal DNA is. So autosomal DNA plays a more important role.

Yes I don't disagree autosomal plays an important role in defining physical traits, like skin color, eye and etc.. However Y dna with 50million genomes that differentiate men from women has a part too. With some haplogroups with less mutations it can be subtle, and others with many mutations it can be noticeable

How come that most French, Portuguese, Welsh, Irish who are considered very white and have r1b majority don't have blonde hair (real not the ones from the shop), but have darker hair or red in case of the irish or even bashkirs but R1a and I1 like Slavs and Scandinavians have a lot of blondes, they have dark hair too in Scandinavia but there's around 30% of R1b there aswell, and that's only hair color.

[Abti]

I can tell the difference between R1 and I/J peoples for sure. R1 fore they look like Asians if not predominantly make up for it in their attitude which is full-of themselves or down right incelic behavior. I-J are innovators borne in West Eurasia looking to survive and it has latched on to their dna.

I’ll let you guess which one out of these Italians are J2-M172 and R1-M173.

https://i.imgur.com/YoFscfh.jpg

[Katarzyna]

I can tell the difference between R1 and I/J peoples for sure. R1 fore they look like Asians if not predominantly make up for it in their attitude which is full-of themselves or down right incelic behavior. I-J are innovators borne in West Eurasia looking to survive and it has latched on to their dna.

I’ll let you guess which one of our if these Italians are J2-M172 and R1-M173.

https://i.imgur.com/YoFscfh.jpg

I can't tell the difference by just looking at them but if they climbed to my bed at night, then I could clearly tell R1a apart from J. But we can't go for that experiment anymore cause I'm married now to a sexy G (my favourites).

[vader]

Phenotype are various in its nature. They have multiple, random variables that can lead to certain looks, coloring, etc. WHEREAS autosomal dna is a motionless picture of your entire being. So I'll side with no, phenotypes arent really that relevant at all. In some populations certain, very particular looks are present because of endogamy... and I mean that's all. Most populations are going away from endogamy over the last century, and more. And so most people in certain areas of the globe will have the same autosomal % as those endogamous communities, so having the same ancestral claim to their land, while possessing various phenotypes.

[Abti]

I can't tell the difference by just looking at them but if they climbed to my bed at night, then I could clearly tell R1a apart from J. But we can't go for that experiment anymore cause I'm married now to a sexy G (my favourites).

You can tell that R1a men have small penises? xD because it’s true the closer you are to Africa = the bigger the penises are.

[vader]

In my country we have a lot of full siblings, one looking Blond Scandinavian the other looking local etc. Genetics tell you thefull story and full story is very clear=

*Phenotypes are lottery
*You can only win something which is in the basket

Agreed, and the same is true in my family.

[Etelfrido]

I can tell the difference between R1 and I/J peoples for sure. R1 fore they look like Asians if not predominantly make up for it in their attitude which is full-of themselves or down right incelic behavior. I-J are innovators borne in West Eurasia looking to survive and it has latched on to their dna.

I’ll let you guess which one out of these Italians are J2-M172 and R1-M173.

https://i.imgur.com/YoFscfh.jpg

Isn't the one on the right partly Japanese?

[DomitiusAurelian]

My sister looks mongoloid, I look caucasoid. She would blend in easily in Central Asia, I would blend in easily in the Balkans or maybe Eastern Europe. Phenotypes can be deceiving especially if you're mixed.

[Abti]

Isn't the one on the right partly Japanese?

Nope just his R1ness.

[Automata]

Isn't the one on the right partly Japanese?

He doesn't look Japanese to me.

[Etelfrido]

I can't tell the difference by just looking at them but if they climbed to my bed at night, then I could clearly tell R1a apart from J. But we can't go for that experiment anymore cause I'm married now to a sexy G (my favourites).
Would you be so kind as to give explanations? :)

[Etelfrido]

Nope just his R1ness.
:scratch:


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AzWe-lQbJ7g

[ToySoldierEnthusiast]

He doesn't look Japanese to me.

In the west , people would see him as full japanese. If you dont look completely white, then you are 100% your mixture.

Which is why transracials get brave, because they see these non-asian looking people being called asian in the west.

[Automata]

In the west , people would see him as full japanese. If you dont look completely white, then you are 100% your mixture.

Which is why transracials get brave, because they see these non-asian looking people being called asian in the west.

By Western logic slanted eyes=Japanese or Chinese anyway.

[ToySoldierEnthusiast]

By Western logic slanted eyes=Japanese or Chinese anyway.

Did you see the brazilian guy who got surgery to look japanese??
He ended up looking like a freak
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/this-brazilian-man-had-10-plastic-surgeries-so-he-could-look

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3636374.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/Gaucho-Xiahn-Main.png

[Automata]

Did you see the brazilian guy who got surgery to look japanese??
He ended up looking like a freak
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/this-brazilian-man-had-10-plastic-surgeries-so-he-could-look

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3636374.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/Gaucho-Xiahn-Main.png

Some weebs take it too far, I guess. In terms of freakiness, the guy who spent £20,000 on Surgery to Look Like David Beckham is far worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzlCdPxlYM

[ToySoldierEnthusiast]

Some weebs take it too far, I guess. In terms of freakiness, the guy who spent £20,000 on Surgery to Look Like David Beckham is far worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzlCdPxlYM

Lol the guy in that video still looks human, lol he got scammed though

[lei.talk]

...phenotype classification is pseudoscience.
if you have a moment,

could you explain why the practical science of taxonomy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy)
is valid for all things

:icon1: except humans :icon1:

[Token]

Yes, as long as people don't confuse genetics with their results in crap online calculators vaguely based on the analysis of a small subset of their genome partly filled up by allele-prediction algorithms used by genetic testing companies.

[Demirkazık]

If we are going to talk purely by phenotypes, I would be of different race compared to my sister.

[Septentrion]

I’m tallish ( 197cm ), redhead, burly or big-boned. My father is tallish ( 188 cm ), clearly brown-haired & blue-eyed, athletic build and my mother’s medium in height, blond-haired & green-eyed, medium build. See genotype is much deeper than the phenotype. The reason why I used the term “tallish” despite the fact my height is 197cm barefooted is because in Belgium the average adult man height is already 182 cm. Thus, I’d call only a person who is 20 cm above average as tall. Although everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Most people say that I’m very tall but I don’t think so.

[PaganPoet]

I’m tallish ( 197cm ), redhead, burly or big-boned. My father is tallish ( 188 cm ), clearly brown-haired & blue-eyed, athletic build and my mother’s medium in height, blond-haired & green-eyed, medium build. See genotype is much deeper than the phenotype. The reason why I used the term “tallish” despite the fact my height is 197cm barefooted is because in Belgium the average adult man height is already 182 cm. Thus, I’d call only a person who is 20 cm above average as tall. Although everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Most people say that I’m very tall but I don’t think so.

Belgian males are 178cm-179cm on average.

[Septentrion]

Belgian males are 178cm-179cm on average.

Non, tu as tors. D’après une étude crédible scientifique qui a durée cent ans. La Belgique viens en deuxième place après les Pays Bas au monde, pour la taille moyenne des hommes. Ha!ha!ha!ha! Tu te calmes, voici l’étude.
https://focusonbelgium.be/en/facts/did-you-know-belgian-men-are-second-tallest-world#:~:text=At%20an%20average%20height%20of,had% 20quite%20a%20growth%20spurt.

For those who didn’t understand a thing. I said to PaganPoet that he was wrong. The figure I gave is based on a much more credible study, a hundred year long one. Which shows that concerning the average height for males, Belgium comes second in the world after the Netherlands at 182 cm.

[PaganPoet]

Non, tu as tors. D’après une étude crédible scientifique qui a durée cent ans. La Belgique viens en deuxième place après les Pays Bas au monde, pour la taille moyenne des hommes. Ha!ha!ha!ha! Tu te calmes, voici l’étude.
https://focusonbelgium.be/en/facts/did-you-know-belgian-men-are-second-tallest-world#:~:text=At%20an%20average%20height%20of,had% 20quite%20a%20growth%20spurt.

For those who didn’t understand a thing. I said to PaganPoet that he was wrong. The figure I gave is based on a much more credible study, a hundred year long one. Which shows that concerning the average height for males, Belgium comes second in the world after the Netherlands at 182 cm.

Says the one who copy pastes from Wikipedia.
And using French doesn't make people believe you are Belgian.

[Abaddon]

Both PaganPoet and Septentrion are nemesis of each other, thats entertainament for me :laugh:

[Ugo]

Both PaganPoet and Septentrion are nemesis of each other, thats entertainament for me :laugh:
I understood what you said to me personally. Alas. there's only one leader here, and it's not you. But I will support you.

[PaganPoet]

Both PaganPoet and Septentrion are nemesis of each other, thats entertainament for me :laugh:

We would be if he were actually Belgian. Which he probably is not, he imagines it as a place with mostly people like Kevin de Bruyne and Annelien Coorevits, etc... He imagines being a part of it as well.

[Abaddon]

I understood what you said to me personally. Alas. there's only one leader here, and it's not you. But I will support you.
:thumb001:

[Touijer]

I can tell the difference between R1 and I/J peoples for sure. R1 fore they look like Asians if not predominantly make up for it in their attitude which is full-of themselves or down right incelic behavior. I-J are innovators borne in West Eurasia looking to survive and it has latched on to their dna.

I’ll let you guess which one out of these Italians are J2-M172 and R1-M173.

https://i.imgur.com/YoFscfh.jpg

Right is R1, left is j2

- I saw you posted answer so I was right, I didn’t see the notification for your post

[Abti]

Right is R1, left is j2

- I saw you posted answer so I was right, I didn’t see the notification for your post

I really don’t know it’s a joke lol.

[Septentrion]

Says the one who copy pastes from Wikipedia.
And using French doesn't make people believe you are Belgian.

Oh please! Hush! No one is trying to prove anything. Nothing was pasted, genius !

[Septentrion]

We would be if he were actually Belgian. Which he probably is not, he imagines it as a place with mostly people like Kevin de Bruyne and Annelien Coorevits, etc... He imagines being a part of it as well.

STP, tu la fermes!! Tu ne fais que raconter des conneries. J’en ai marre des sottises que tu ne fais que raconter. Je n’imagine rien c’est toi qui est un rêveur croyant que la Belgique est la Chine Populaire! Ha!ha!ha!ha!ha! T’est vraiment marrant.

[PaganPoet]

STP, tu la fermes!! Tu ne fais que raconter des conneries. J’en ai marre des sottises que tu ne fais que raconter. Je n’imagine rien c’est toi qui est un rêveur croyant que la Belgique est la Chine Populaire! Ha!ha!ha!ha!ha! T’est vraiment marrant.

Lame.

[Septentrion]

Lame.

C’est que tu es réellement c’est ça :

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-527191268-copy.jpg

Ha!ha!ha!

[PaganPoet]

C’est que tu es réellement c’est ça :

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-527191268-copy.jpg

Ha!ha!ha!
:zzz

[Septentrion]

I was thinking the other day about how people who are genetically similar can look radically different, you can for example have a gracile med and alpine blend from southern France or Italy who is closer to a very blonde Dane or Dutch with CM influence than they would be to someone who looks very similar to them from say Lebanon or Iran, that makes me think that genetics only tells a bit of the story.

I wouldn’t call Iranians close to the Southern French in particular and the Italians. Some Lebanese with European admixture might pass in Southern Italy only not France. Europeans in general look very different in comparison to Middle-Easterners.

[ToySoldierEnthusiast]

I wouldn’t call Iranians close to the Southern French in particular and the Italians. Some Lebanese with European admixture might pass in Southern Italy only not France. Europeans in general look very different in comparison to Middle-Easterners.

Many european-middle easterm mixes could pass in europe
https://i.ibb.co/gtxc8x3/1372671-368156859.jpg (https://ibb.co/wpf2qfR)
.
Like a lebanese-european mix is more likely to pass then an nigerian-european mix would

[Septentrion]

I was thinking the other day about how people who are genetically similar can look radically different, you can for example have a gracile med and alpine blend from southern France or Italy who is closer to a very blonde Dane or Dutch with CM influence than they would be to someone who looks very similar to them from say Lebanon or Iran, that makes me think that genetics only tells a bit of the story.

Iranians are predominantly Orientalid in race.

[Septentrion]

Many european-middle easterm mixes could pass in europe
https://i.ibb.co/gtxc8x3/1372671-368156859.jpg (https://ibb.co/wpf2qfR)
.
Like a lebanese-european mix is more likely to pass then an nigerian-european mix would

You said she’s a Lebanese-European mix, right? It is due to the fact that in comparison to Nigerian and other Sub-Saharan African, the genetical distance between them and Euros, is greater than that between Lebanese and Euros. This doesn’t mean that Lebanese are Europeans. They are not.

[lei.talk]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Septentrion (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?6795-Septentrion&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377880-Olive-skin-does-it-really-exist-or-is-it-a-way-for-brown-people-to-feel-a-bit-whiter&p=7821371&viewfull=1#post7821371) 4] It generally refers to moderate or lighter tan or brownish skin, and it is often described as having tan, brown, cream, greenish, yellowish, or golden undertones

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.pngPaganPoet (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?32842-PaganPoet&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377880-Olive-skin-does-it-really-exist-or-is-it-a-way-for-brown-people-to-feel-a-bit-whiter&p=7821376&viewfull=1#post7821376) You copy pasted this from Wikipedia.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Septentrion (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?6795-Septentrion&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7822851&viewfull=1#post7822851) No one is trying to prove anything. Nothing was pasted, genius !


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_skin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_skin)


https://i.imgur.com/HCAAuJb.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7635442&viewfull=1#post7635442)https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png

[lei.talk]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Septentrion (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?6795-Septentrion&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7822424&viewfull=1#post7822424) ...in Belgium the average adult man height is already 182 cm.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.pngPaganPoet (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?32842-PaganPoet&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7822442&viewfull=1#post7822442) Belgian males are 178cm-179cm on average.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Septentrion (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?6795-Septentrion&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7822586&viewfull=1#post7822586) The figure I gave is based on a much more credible study, a hundred year long one.





http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif "What a joke!!!!...Do you know what you are saying? I guess you don’t." (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7598260&viewfull=1#post7598260)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.png congratulations on an impressive effort! is this the first time you have posted a source? (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7598927&viewfull=1#post7598927)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.png sharing information is more productive than personal attacks (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7607964&viewfull=1#post7607964)



https://i.imgur.com/HCAAuJb.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7635442&viewfull=1#post7635442)https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png

[ToySoldierEnthusiast]

You said she’s a Lebanese-European mix, right? It is due to the fact that in comparison to Nigerian and other Sub-Saharan African, the genetical distance between them and Euros, is greater than that between Lebanese and Euros. This doesn’t mean that Lebanese are Europeans. They are not.

Geographically they are not euros, but they are the same race as euros. And the closest people outside of europe to europeans.

[Septentrion]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Septentrion (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?6795-Septentrion&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377880-Olive-skin-does-it-really-exist-or-is-it-a-way-for-brown-people-to-feel-a-bit-whiter&p=7821371&viewfull=1#post7821371) 4] It generally refers to moderate or lighter tan or brownish skin, and it is often described as having tan, brown, cream, greenish, yellowish, or golden undertones

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.pngPaganPoet (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?32842-PaganPoet&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377880-Olive-skin-does-it-really-exist-or-is-it-a-way-for-brown-people-to-feel-a-bit-whiter&p=7821376&viewfull=1#post7821376) You copy pasted this from Wikipedia.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Septentrion (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?6795-Septentrion&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7822851&viewfull=1#post7822851) No one is trying to prove anything. Nothing was pasted, genius !


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_skin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_skin)


https://i.imgur.com/HCAAuJb.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7635442&viewfull=1#post7635442)https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png

Stop with the idiocy! I said that I did not take anything from Wikipedia concerning the average height of Belgians. Do you like acting like a knucklehead ?
I can post sources if I want too.

[Septentrion]

We would be if he were actually Belgian. Which he probably is not, he imagines it as a place with mostly people like Kevin de Bruyne and Annelien Coorevits, etc... He imagines being a part of it as well.

You might hate K. de Bruyne and A. Coorevits or the way they look. It’s OK. I’m Belgian and I don’t look like them. I never said most Belgians are identical to them either. Most ( not all !!!!! ) ethnic Belgians ( Flemish or Walloon) fit in with the people of North - Western Europe. That’s all. They don’t look like some Chinamen out there.

[Septentrion]

Geographically they are not euros, but they are the same race as euros. And the closest people outside of europe to europeans.

I would say they are the closest race to Europeans. Geographically and genetically they are not Europeans. As a group, Europeans ( whether Belgians or Italians or Swedes, etc…) have differentiated from Middle-Easterners.

[PaganPoet]

You might hate K. de Bruyne and A. Coorevits or the way they look. It’s OK. I’m Belgian and I don’t look like them. I never said most Belgians are identical to them either. Most ( not all !!!!! ) ethnic Belgians ( Flemish or Walloon) fit in with the people of North - Western Europe. That’s all. They don’t look like some Chinamen out there.

I don't hate them and I never said Asiatic admixture makes people look Chinese.
Nobody here takes your attempt to ridicule my claims seriously.

[PaganPoet]

Stop with the idiocy! I said that I did not take anything from Wikipedia concerning the average height of Belgians. Do you like acting like a knucklehead ?
I can post sources if I want too.

When I am in southern Netherlands people look significantly taller. Even the locals, so the difference must be higher than in your source. Since you are not here, you are not able to tell.

[lei.talk]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.pngPaganPoet (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?32842-PaganPoet&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7823281&viewfull=1#post7823281) Since you are not here, you are not able to tell.




¿ Ex septentrione lux ?

https://i.imgur.com/sKMcErP.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?184752-I-dedicate-this-song-to-(The-gifts-we-members-could-give-each-other)&p=7671037&viewfull=1#post7671037)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.pngRusski (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?22409-Russki&tab=aboutme#aboutme) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?369559-Do-Belgians-pass-better-in-Spain-or-Sweden&p=7655147&viewfull=1#post7655147) I actually believe that Tchek is a genuine Belgian (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?369559-Do-Belgians-pass-better-in-Spain-or-Sweden&p=7652921&viewfull=1#post7652921),
whereas you are probably a larping Amerimutt (http://www.city-data.com/forum/genealogy/1955767-ethnic-heritage-21st-century-americans-12.html#post31783531) with identity crisis.


as your sole claim to authority on this topic (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7645979#post7645979)
is your imaginary flemish citizenship,


perhaps you will post an audio-recording (https://youtu.be/IqXDqmfv46M)
of you addressing your challengers by name
in your native flemish tongue?


the truly belgian members of the apricity
may judge your accent as authentic or not.

use your smart-phone to post an image
of you holding a local flemish newspaper over your face
as you pose in front of a recognise-able google street-view location (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View)
in your native flanders.

[Septentrion]

This is based on a 100 year long study of collecting data. It doesn’t get more credible than this. Belgian men not women are placed second tallest in terms of average height. Belgium wasn’t only compared to the Netherlands but to other countries as well. I’m already tall, so my judgment would be different. This is why studies come into play. Read for yourself in English or Dutch.

https://belgium.euresidence.me/residence-permit-eu/belgian-men-are-second-tallest-in-the-world/

https://www.expatica.com/be/general/flanders-belgian-males-worlds-second-tallest-56380/

https://focusonbelgium.be/en/facts/did-you-know-belgian-men-are-second-tallest-world

https://www.knack.be/nieuws/wetenschap/belgische-mannen-zijn-de-tweede-langste-ter-wereld/

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2016/07/26/belgische_mannenbijnagrootsteterwereldnatussenspur t-1-2722559/

[Septentrion]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.pngPaganPoet (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?32842-PaganPoet&tab=activitystream&type=user) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377810-Is-genetics-that-relevant-when-talking-about-phenotypes&p=7823281&viewfull=1#post7823281) Since you are not here, you are not able to tell.

You got no balls! Shut up weirdo!

[lei.talk]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif "What a joke!!!!...Do you know what you are saying? I guess you don’t." (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7598260&viewfull=1#post7598260)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.png congratulations on an impressive effort! is this the first time you have posted a source? (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7598927&viewfull=1#post7598927)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.png sharing information is more productive than personal attacks (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7607964&viewfull=1#post7607964)



https://i.imgur.com/HCAAuJb.png (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?366742-Are-Belgians-Nordic&p=7635442&viewfull=1#post7635442)https://i.imgur.com/u7leimb.png


This is based on a 100 year long study of collecting data. It doesn’t get more credible than this. Belgian men not women are placed second tallest in terms of average height. Belgium wasn’t only compared to the Netherlands but to other countries as well. I’m already tall, so my judgment would be different. This is why studies come into play. Read for yourself in English or Dutch.

https://belgium.euresidence.me/residence-permit-eu/belgian-men-are-second-tallest-in-the-world/

https://www.expatica.com/be/general/flanders-belgian-males-worlds-second-tallest-56380/

https://focusonbelgium.be/en/facts/did-you-know-belgian-men-are-second-tallest-world

https://www.knack.be/nieuws/wetenschap/belgische-mannen-zijn-de-tweede-langste-ter-wereld/

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2016/07/26/belgische_mannenbijnagrootsteterwereldnatussenspur t-1-2722559/

[PaganPoet]

You got no balls! Shut up weirdo!

Yes I do and they're big.

[Septentrion]

Yes I do and they're big.

Actually that wasn’t directed at you. Kleine jongen!

[Melkiirs]

Actually that wasn’t directed at you. Kleine jongen!

Since you upvoted lei.talk does that mean you now agree with his position?

[PaganPoet]

Actually that wasn’t directed at you. Kleine jongen!

Bommabeffer.