How would you redraw the European borders?

[Stars Down To Earth]

As we all know, the map of Europe has changed a lot in the last 100 years, with the rise of nation-states and all that.

What changes in borders and alignments would my fellow Apricians like to see in Europe and surrounding areas, to solve past injustices and create a true and lasting peace?

(This thread is meant to be mainly focused on Europe, but you're free to do hypothetical border changes all around the world if you feel like it. :tongue)

[Gamera]

Ever since I studied about the Byzantine Empire at high school, I've though Constantinople should be given back to Europe. As for internal European borders, I'm not the one to judge. ;)

[Sikeliot]

I like Europe exactly as is.

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/europe-political-map.jpg

[Argyll]

I, obviously, would like to see more countries in the British Isles. But other than that, I like it the way it is :)

[Joe McCarthy]

Any border changes should be made peacefully or not at all, and that is an unlikely scenario so they'll probably stay the way they are, however imperfect they are.

It's impossible to devise a settlement that'll make everyone happy. Currently the status quo is maintained and malcontent, wannabe aggressors contained by the threat of NATO air power. Hope that continues.

[Stars Down To Earth]

Don't be a bore, Joey.

Of course, any border changes in Europe or the rest of the planet will send political shockwaves and possibly cause wars.

But we're talking ideally. If you could change any national borders at will, and have enough power to make those changes, what would they be?

[Logan]

I like Europe exactly as is.

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/europe-political-map.jpg

It has worked well with little trouble for some time now.:cool:

I would rather see Ireland part of the United Kingdom. It was ballsed up as was the union with the North American Colonies. Seems the pattern continues to this day. :rolleyes:

I'd also have Scandinavia controled from either Denmark or Sweden.:D

Germany ought to have some land returned, least of all Prussia.:wink

The rest I'll best leave to those who know a bit more than I.:)

[Joe McCarthy]

Don't be a bore, Joey.

Of course, any border changes in Europe or the rest of the planet will send political shockwaves and possibly cause wars.

But we're talking ideally. If you could change any national borders at will, and have enough power to make those changes, what would they be?

I'm afraid the question doesn't particularly interest me. The thing that comes to mind when discussing European border changes is the bad ol' days of European warfare.

[Laudanum]

Many Dutch people would like to see Flanders join the Netherlands.

I don't really care, though.:P I think the borders are pretty much fine as they are right now, but I wouldn't mind if Flanders would join the Netherlands.

[Joe McCarthy]

Many Dutch people would like to see Flanders join the Netherlands.

I don't really care, though.:P I think the borders are pretty much fine as they are right now, but I wouldn't mind if Flanders would join the Netherlands.

That is one change that could probably come about peacefully through negotiations and a vote. I know Wilders favors it

[Laudanum]

That is one change that could probably come about peacefully through negotiations and a vote. I know Wilders favors it

Yes. Most people in Flanders would like to join The Netherlands as well. There is quite a lot of tension between the Dutch and the French speaking sides of the country.

[Breedingvariety]

Switzerland: divided among Germany, France and Italy.
Belgium: divided between France and Netherlands.
Germany: gains Austria, part of Switzerland, Netherlands (+Flanders), Luxembourg, Alsac- Lorraine, South Tyrol, Northern Schleswig, 1871-1914 Eastern Lands (except Katowice).
Poland gains lands in current Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, Eastern Lithuania.
Russia gains remaining Eastern Belarus and remaining most of Ukraine.
Romania gains Moldavia.
Sweden gains Aland Islands.
Finland gains Karelia.

[Unurautare]

Romania united with Rep.Moldova.

[Joe McCarthy]

Switzerland: divided among Germany, France and Italy.
Belgium: divided between France and Netherlands.
Germany: gains Austria, part of Switzerland, Netherlands (+Flanders), Luxembourg, Alsac- Lorraine, South Tyrol, Northern Schleswig, 1871-1914 Eastern Lands (except Katowice).
Poland gains lands in current Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, Eastern Lithuania.
Russia gains remaining Eastern Belarus and remaining most of Ukraine.
Romania gains Moldavia.
Sweden gains Aland Islands.
Finland gains Karelia.

Sieg Heil.

[Stars Down To Earth]

Romania united with Rep.Moldova.
But then Romania won't get those 12 extra points in every Eurovision contest... :puppy_dp:

[Caeruleus]

what do you think of my little drawing !? :)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17934&d=1323298244

[Joe McCarthy]

what do you think of my little drawing !? :)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17934&d=1323298244

Only if North America is included. Otherwise, major threat to national security here.

[Caeruleus]

Only if North America is included. Otherwise, major threat to national security here.

Ohh you mean the US must have a say in all this matter !? In my world there is no place for 'merika :D USA Raus :laugh2: Come on its just a drawing Joe :) But I do think that there are too many countries in Europe.

[Stars Down To Earth]

I mostly agree with Caeruleus' map. I'd make these basic border changes:

- Germany annexes Austria, whose people are ethnic Germans anyway. They also get East Prussia back, if they want the AIDS-infested shithole.
- Belgium, being a non-country, just stops existing. The Flemish part joins the Netherlands, and Wallonia to France.
- Greece gets back Constantinople and the European part of Turkey, burning all bridges on the Bosporus and shutting the Turks out of Europe.
- Serbia and Croatia get to partition the Balkans between themselves (except Slovenia, they can stay as they are). The non-country Macedonia will be split between Greece and Bulgaria, and the other abomination, Kosovo, will cease existing. The Muslim Kosovars can be deported to their spiritual homeland in the Middle-East.


Only if North America is included. Otherwise, major threat to national security here.
Joey, are you contribute to this thread at all? You know, I usually like your posts, but now you're just being a wanker for the sake of it.

[Hess]

The non-country Macedonia will be split between Greece and Bulgaria

what about the millions of macedonians with a strong national identity?

[Laudanum]

Germany: gains Austria, part of Switzerland, Netherlands (+Flanders),

No way.

[Caeruleus]

I mostly agree with Caeruleus' map. I'd make these basic border changes:

- Germany annexes Austria, whose people are ethnic Germans anyway. They also get East Prussia back, if they want the AIDS-infested shithole.
- Belgium, being a non-country, just stops existing. The Flemish part joins the Netherlands, and Wallonia to France.
- Greece gets back Constantinople and the European part of Turkey, burning all bridges on the Bosporus and shutting the Turks out of Europe.
- Serbia and Croatia get to partition the Balkans between themselves (except Slovenia, they can stay as they are). The non-country Macedonia will be split between Greece and Bulgaria, and the other abomination, Kosovo, will cease existing. The Muslim Kosovars can be deported to their spiritual homeland in the Middle-East.


Joey, are you contribute to this thread at all? You know, I usually like your posts, but now you're just being a wanker for the sake of it.

I would also reunite Czech Republic and Slovakia but only if they want to (because ethnically and culturally they are very close to each other) :)

[BiałaZemsta]

It has worked well with little trouble for some time now.:cool:

I would rather see Ireland part of the United Kingdom. It was ballsed up as was the union with the North American Colonies. Seems the pattern continues to this day. :rolleyes:

I'd also have Scandinavia controled from either Denmark or Sweden.:D

Germany ought to have some land returned, least of all Prussia.:wink

The rest I'll best leave to those who know a bit more than I.:)

Germany is lucky to even exist today considering all the trouble they cause when they are left alone. Today Prussia is not German, it is a well established part of Poland, realistically, and historically. Germany does not need Prussia, or deserve it. It belongs to Poland and thats how it should stay.

[Laudanum]

Germany is lucky to even exist today considering all the trouble they cause when they are left alone. Today Prussia is not German, it is a well established part of Poland, realistically, and historically. Germany does not need Prussia, or deserve it. It belongs to Poland and thats how it should stay.

Good old Germany vs. Poland arguments. I love discussions like this.:P

[Joe McCarthy]

Ohh you mean the US must have a say in all this matter !? In my world there is no place for 'merika :D USA Raus :laugh2: Come on its just a drawing Joe :) But I do think that there are too many countries in Europe.

Well, yours is the mentality of these Europe from Dublin to the Urals types so excuse me if I object to my country ceasing to exist.

[Unurautare]

But then Romania won't get those 12 extra points in every Eurovision contest... :puppy_dp:

We'll just make sure Italy and Spain will compensate with 12 points each instead.:laugh:

[Logan]

Germany is lucky to even exist today considering all the trouble they cause when they are left alone. Today Prussia is not German, it is a well established part of Poland, realistically, and historically. Germany does not need Prussia, or deserve it. It belongs to Poland and thats how it should stay.

And the enclave, another bit of luck?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oYGOWCgVKfg/THe9f02vzbI/AAAAAAAAAEs/plG_yVV3HUc/s1600/poland-map%5B1%5D.jpg


Good old Germany vs. Poland arguments. I love discussions like this.:P

More a difference of opinion. ;)

[Phil75231]

In almost all cases, it's up to the locale's individuals to decide.

Exceptions: The leading secessions movement significantly promises to menace

* another nation's security after independence (including the nation they seceded from but especially a "third party" nation).

* the human rights of the territory they claim control over.

[Jake Featherston]

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/europe-political-map.jpg[/img]

#1: Northern Ireland reverts to Republic of Ireland

#2: Scottish national independence

#3: Welsh national independence

#4: Cornish national independence

#5: Breton national independence

#6: Galician national independence (in reference to the province of northwestern Spain)

#7: Flemmish national independence

#8: Wallonia reverts to France

#9: Corsican national independence (or reversion to Italy, depending on the outcome of a referendum)

#10): Constantinople/"Istanbul," and the whole of Eastern Thrace, reverts to Greece

#11: Dissolution of the so-called "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" (not shown on map, to the credit of the cartographic profession), and reversion of Cyprus to Greece

#12: Reversion of Kosovo to Serbia

#13: Reversion of Kola peninsula, and other majority-Finnish territories in Russia (as well as all formerly Finnish national territories presently occupied by Russia), to Finland

#14: Reversion of Kaliningrad to Germany

#15: Reversion of Austria to Germany

#16: Reversion of Greenland to the USA

[Unurautare]

#16: Reversion of Greenland to the USA

How about: Reversion of the USA to England,France and Spain. :thumb001:

[Unurautare]

An idea or a federal/imperialist Europe:

Red: A revived Roman Empire under Greek and Romanian dominance(Turks&co. and Jews being kaput ofc,they can emigrate to the Americas or Central Asia for all I care);
Pink: Countries where the Roman Empire has significant influence/protectorates;
Dark Blue: Western European federation:
Lighter Blue: Western European protectorates/colonies;
Grey: The Nordic confederation;
Dark Yellow: A Eastern European federation led by Poland(more of a buffer state between Russia and Europe);
Burgundy Brown: A confederation of Eurasian states led by Russia.


http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1069/idead.gif

[Joe McCarthy]

How about: Reversion of the USA to England,France and Spain. :thumb001:

Given the record of miscegenation and underdevelopment of Spain in the New World I can't see why anyone would invite them back unless they intended it as deliberate sabotage.

[BiałaZemsta]

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/europe-political-map.jpg[/img]

#1: Northern Ireland reverts to Republic of Ireland

#2: Scottish national independence

#3: Welsh national independence

#4: Cornish national independence

#5: Breton national independence

#6: Galician national independence (in reference to the province of northwestern Spain)

#7: Flemmish national independence

#8: Wallonia reverts to France

#9: Corsican national independence (or reversion to Italy, depending on the outcome of a referendum)

#10): Constantinople/"Istanbul," and the whole of Eastern Thrace, reverts to Greece

#11: Dissolution of the so-called "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" (not shown on map, to the credit of the cartographic profession), and reversion of Cyprus to Greece

#12: Reversion of Kosovo to Serbia

#13: Reversion of Kola peninsula, and other majority-Finnish territories in Russia (as well as all formerly Finnish national territories presently occupied by Russia), to Finland

#14: Reversion of Kaliningrad to Germany

#15: Reversion of Austria to Germany

#16: Reversion of Greenland to the USA

What right does Germany have to Kaliningrad :rolleyes::confused:? If anything it should go to Lithuania or Poland.

[Unurautare]

Given the record of miscegenation and underdevelopment of Spain in the New World I can't see why anyone would invite them back unless they intended it as deliberate sabotage.

;) Europe should rule the world cuz all the other countries are ruled by lil' girls.

[SwordoftheVistula]

What right does Germany have to Kaliningrad :rolleyes::confused:? If anything it should go to Lithuania or Poland.

Before 1945 it was a German city named Konigsberg since its founding in 1255.

Any border changes today are mostly irrelevant, since all European countries have declining populations and no people to move into any new/returned areas.

A return to the 1914 borders would probably be the most fair.

[Unurautare]

Before 1945 it was a German city named Konigsberg since its founding in 1255.

Any border changes today are mostly irrelevant, since all European countries have declining populations and no people to move into any new/returned areas.

A return to the 1914 borders would probably be the most fair.

The 1914 borders were not fair at all,why did you think we had WW1 and WW2 over it(and the colonies)? :coffee:

[BiałaZemsta]

Before 1945 it was a German city named Konigsberg since its founding in 1255.

Any border changes today are mostly irrelevant, since all European countries have declining populations and no people to move into any new/returned areas.

A return to the 1914 borders would probably be the most fair.

How is depriving the Polish people of their own country fair? What about the Baltic countries, Czech, and Slovaks?

[BiałaZemsta]

Before 1945 it was a German city named Konigsberg since its founding in 1255.

Any border changes today are mostly irrelevant, since all European countries have declining populations and no people to move into any new/returned areas.

A return to the 1914 borders would probably be the most fair.

Kaliningrad was never German. It is a piece of land in Eastern Europe, which Germans have no right to. They do not belong in the East.

[Leliana]

Germany is lucky to even exist today considering all the trouble they cause when they are left alone. Today Prussia is not German, it is a well established part of Poland, realistically, and historically. Germany does not need Prussia, or deserve it. It belongs to Poland and thats how it should stay.
You're not to be taken serious, it's not the first time that your hate for Germans pours out of all your pores.

How is depriving the Polish people of their own country fair?
How ridiculous, you contradict your poor logics in two subsequent posts. :mad: Depriving Polish people is unfair but depriving millions of German people from their centuries-long home areas in Prussia or Silesia is all fine? Again, spoken like a true unsound German hater that you are. Thumb down!

Kaliningrad was never German. It is a piece of land in Eastern Europe, which Germans have no right to. They do not belong in the East.
The history of my people tells something different. :rolleyes: Original Poland was located more in the east and that's where it belongs to.

I would redraw the German borders like that:

http://www.kaiserkurier.de/kurier053/images/deutsches-reich.gif

The rest of the European borders could stay as they are, or how they are shown on the map of Caeruleus.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17934&d=1323298244

[SwordoftheVistula]

Reading through a history of Konigsberg, it was a German city from its founding until after WWII, when its population was entirely replaced. Russia occupied it from 1757-1763, but other than that was under continuous Teutonic->Prussian->German control:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konigsberg

[Unurautare]

Reading through a history of Konigsberg, it was a German city from its founding until after WWII, when its population was entirely replaced. Russia occupied it from 1757-1763, but other than that was under continuous Teutonic->Prussian->German control:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konigsberg

It was,today it's mostly a Russian city with the Russian military being heavily involved,there are no more Germans there.
If anything should be reverted then it's the Roman Empire who should return,at least within Europe's borders.

http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/empire/extent/rome-empire-modern-nations-01.jpg

[Abenjaldún]

Underdevelopment...

[Abenjaldún]

Given the record of miscegenation and underdevelopment of Spain in the New World I can't see why anyone would invite them back unless they intended it as deliberate sabotage.

Underdevelopment...

[Transhumanist]

W Turkey --> Europe.

[Transhumanist]

[T]he Roman Empire who should return,at least within Europe's borders.

Appears to be the borders during Trajan's final years.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/RomanEmpire_117_svg.png

[Argyll]

I have a question, why do so many people want to see all of these empires? Such as the British one (owning Ireland, Scotland, and Wales) and even resurrecting the Kalmar union? What good would that be for the people?

[Der Steinadler]

i'd like to see Europe united.

not an EU version, but something which reflects the religious nature of its people instead of political fiefdoms.

[Argyll]

I'd rather see a more culturally independent Europe :cool:

[tlockf]

http://www.freeworldmaps.net/europe/europe-political-map.jpg[/img]

#6: Galician national independence (in reference to the province of northwestern Spain)

They'd probably prefer to join Portugal.
But still, before they got independence, Basqueland and the Catalan Lands should be granted independence, from both Spain and France. Barely any Galicians even speak Galician anymore.

[Damião de Góis]

They'd probably prefer to join Portugal.
But still, before they got independence, Basqueland and the Catalan Lands should be granted independence, from both Spain and France. Barely any Galicians even speak Galician anymore.

The majority are probably happy to be a part of Spain. Those who care about their language probably would prefer independence over joining Portugal.
I think the ones who would like to join Portugal just think that as a way to escape castillianization.

[Unurautare]

Appears to be the borders during Trajan's final years.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/RomanEmpire_117_svg.png

If you look better it includes most of Germany,it has all lands that were under the Romans at one time,though it's not perfect because it should have more of Romania and Rep.Moldova(there are Roman walls and ditches in today's Rep.Moldova too).

~Something like this but with better shaped borders:

http://www.wall-maps.com/Classroom/Atlas/WorldRomanEmpire.gif

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~cfford/342romanempiremap.gif

[Redar14]

What changes in borders and alignments would my fellow Apricians like to see in Europe and surrounding areas, to solve past injustices and create a true and lasting peace?


Kosovo must come back to Serbia.
Transnistria should belong to Ukraina.
Vilnius district must be independent, polish state.

[Comte Arnau]

Every smart guy on Earth knows that Western Europe should look like this.

:coffee:

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2mg6ree.jpg

[Joe McCarthy]

In the 1800s Auguste Comte wanted to break France up into several states and promote smaller states in general as a means to ensure peace. That's a nice idea in theory, and it helps promote greater accountability to the people. But given the rise of large powers like Russia, China, India, Brazil, etc., devolving power into smaller political constructs isn't the best idea in a geopolitical prism.

[Hevneren]

I'd also have Scandinavia controled from either Denmark or Sweden.:D

No thank you! Over 500 years in total was enough. :mad:

How about cutting loose Scotland and Wales from English oppression instead, and giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish? Then you could give Norway back the Isle of Man, the Hebrides, the Orkneys and Shetland. :thumb001:

In addition to the British islands mentioned, Norway should be given back Greenland, Iceland, Bohus, Jemtland and Herjedalen, and Denmark should be given back Schlesvig-Holstein and Skåne (Scania).

I also think Turkey should be turned into an extension of Greece, and Cyprus could become a united Greek nation as well.

Kaliningrad could be divided between its neighbours Poland and Lithuania, rather than being a Russian eyesore in the region.

[Hevneren]

Belgium: divided between France and Netherlands.
Sweden gains Aland Islands.
Finland gains Karelia.

I can agree with these three suggestions. The other suggestions seemed too extreme.

[Hevneren]

#15: Reversion of Austria to Germany

#16: Reversion of Greenland to the USA

I could agree with your list, until these last two. Austria is its own nation. Also, what do you mean by "reversion of Greenland" to the USA??? Greenland is old Norwegian territory. :rolleyes:

[Hevneren]

Grey: The Nordic confederation;


I said no thank you! :mad:

[Argyll]

I could agree with your list, until these last two. Austria is its own nation. Also, what do you mean by "reversion of Greenland" to the USA??? Greenland is old Norwegian territory. :rolleyes:

It is, but why does it belong to Denmark right now?

[Elbegast]

I think Europe could look like this:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg7/scaled.php?server=7&filename=737pxeuropecountriesmap.png&res=medium

[Argyll]

Every smart guy on Earth knows that Western Europe should look like this.

:coffee:

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2mg6ree.jpg

What's the difference between the Republic and the Kingdom?

[Logan]

No thank you! Over 500 years in total was enough. :mad:

How about cutting loose Scotland and Wales from English oppression instead, and giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish? Then you could give Norway back the Isle of Man, the Hebrides, the Orkneys and Shetland. :thumb001:

In addition to the British islands mentioned, Norway should be given back Greenland, Iceland, Bohus, Jemtland and Herjedalen, and Denmark should be given back Schlesvig-Holstein and Skåne (Scania).

I also think Turkey should be turned into an extension of Greece, and Cyprus could become a united Greek nation as well.

Kaliningrad could be divided between its neighbours Poland and Lithuania, rather than being a Russian eyesore in the region.

Oppression? I'm surprised you did not desire the Hebrides, and at least Yorkshire.

We might agree on one thing; Russia ought to relinquish, to another, the bit of Prussia that remains. I never thought to see the wall come down, perhaps someday.

[Damião de Góis]

I think Europe could look like this:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg7/scaled.php?server=7&filename=737pxeuropecountriesmap.png&res=medium

What is the reason, cultural or historical for spliting Portugal?

[Unurautare]

I said no thank you! :mad:

In the event the Roman Empire rises again and I'd conquer Europe,I was thinking of forcing a Nordic confederation under Swedish dominance,either that or invade and annex you all. :thumb001: *all your blonde girls are belong to us*

[Comte Arnau]

What's the difference between the Republic and the Kingdom?

In a Kingdom, there is a royal family to feed, which apparently represent a people that has not elected them.

[Hevneren]

It is, but why does it belong to Denmark right now?

For the same reason as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland belong to England now. Imperialism and theft, pure and simple.

[Der Steinadler]

Europe without all these liberal would be a good thing.

think of it, no more immigrants.

[Hevneren]

Oppression? I'm surprised you did not desire the Hebrides, and at least Yorkshire.

We might agree on one thing; Russia ought to relinquish, to another, the bit of Prussia that remains. I never thought to see the wall come down, perhaps someday.

I mentioned the Hebrides, along with the Orkneys, Shetland and Isle of Man. I didn't mention Dublin, but since it's part of Ireland proper they can keep Dublin.

[HungAryan]

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9141/bettermap.png

[Hevneren]

In the event the Roman Empire rises again and I'd conquer Europe,I was thinking of forcing a Nordic confederation under Swedish dominance,either that or invade and annex you all. :thumb001: *all your blonde girls are belong to us*

Or we could just turn Romania into a Gypsy containment zone. Just send all of Europe's Gypsies there, lock up the borders and throw away the key. :thumb001:

[Hevneren]

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9141/bettermap.png

Why the obsession with Jerusalem? I know you're Christian, but Jerusalem isn't in Europe and its people have nothing to do with Europe.

[Unurautare]

Or we could just turn Romania into a Gypsy containment zone. Just send all of Europe's Gypsies there, lock up the borders and throw away the key. :thumb001:

Said the seagypsy. :coffee:

[HungAryan]

Why the obsession with Jerusalem? I know you're Christian, but Jerusalem isn't in Europe and its people have nothing to do with Europe.

Jerusalem is the Holy City.
Thus, Christian rule in Europe would have a strong psychological effect.
For one thing, Christian zeal in Europe would be strenghtened, Europeans would have more children, and would be generally braver to face the non-European invaders.
Thus, remember this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_jerusalem

The Kingdom of Jerusalem. A former European colony outside Europe, just like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA or Argentina.

[Elbegast]

What is the reason, cultural or historical for spliting Portugal?

Northern Portugal was part of the Old Gallaecia.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

My signature is my answer.

[Damião de Góis]

Northern Portugal was part of the Old Gallaecia.

The roman province? In that case then why not creating more modern countries based on old roman provinces?

[W. R.]

Here we go:
- Belarus' borders: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=185287&postcount=1
- Vilnius can become a free city, though.
- FYRO Macedonia gets Greek Macedonia, Greeks get constant butthurt, we get many lulz.
- Kashubians and Lusatian Sorbs get their own microstates.
- Catalonia gets independence, Basques don't, because they are socialists.
- Sweden becomes Finland's protectorate.
- Independent Bavaria.
- Kosovo and Albania merged.
- Bosnia becomes smaller, its parts are given to Serbia and Croatia.
- Independent Brittany.
- Independent Karelia, not within the current borders, though.
Depriving Polish people is unfair but depriving millions of German people from their centuries-long home areas in Prussia or Silesia is all fine?Currently a) no Germans live there, b) the land is populated by Poles, c) the population of Germany is not growing and doesn't really need new lands. Does the fact that the borders of 1871-1914 look so noice make all three points irrelevant?
Poland gains lands in current Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, Eastern Lithuania.
Russia gains remaining Eastern Belarus and remaining most of Ukraine.The eastern border of Poland 1921-1939 is neither historic nor ethnographic, it had never existed before.


http://europeanbelarus.org/photos/ryzh-padz.jpg

[Elbegast]

The roman province? In that case then why not creating more modern countries based on old roman provinces?

There is no independence movements in all former Roman provinces as there is in Galicia and Catalunya.

[Damião de Góis]

There is no independence movements in all former Roman provinces as there is in Galicia and Catalunya.

My point was that former Roman provinces don't have any relevance today, there is no sense of "unity" based on having been a part of the same Roman province many centuries ago.

Galicia and Catalunya are spanish automomous communities, which have nothing to do with Roman provinces, especially Catalunya.

In any case, i'm pretty sure that most galicians are pretty happy with being spanish and there is no independence movement in northern Portugal.

[Sikeliot]

Give historically Albanian lands that are now part of Greece back to Albania, and give western Turkey to Greece and re-Hellenize it.

[HungAryan]

Give historically Albanian lands that are now part of Greece back to Albania, and give western Turkey to Greece and re-Hellenize it.

I have a better solution to the Albanians: deport them back to Azbaidjan.

[safinator]

I have a better solution to the Albanians: deport them back to Azbaidjan.
And Hungayrians back to Ulan Bator?

[Elbegast]

My point was that former Roman provinces don't have any relevance today, there is no sense of "unity" based on having been a part of the same Roman province many centuries ago.

Galicia and Catalunya are spanish automomous communities, which have nothing to do with Roman provinces, especially Catalunya.

In any case, i'm pretty sure that most galicians are pretty happy with being spanish and there is no independence movement in northern Portugal.

I'm not saying there are independence movements in the northern Portugal (although there is the Eixo Atlántico). But many people there feel more Galaicas than Spanish or Portuguese.
Is not only by the old Roman province, but also culturally.

[Redar14]

The eastern border of Poland 1921-1939 is neither historic nor ethnographic, it had never existed before.


http://europeanbelarus.org/photos/ryzh-padz.jpg

Don't write shit belarussian liar!

Polish population (green colour) before WW2:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Narody2RP.png

Polish-Lithuanian(slavic) State in XVII and XVII centuries:
http://medias2.cafebabel.com/12047/thumb/355/-/12047.jpg

PS: Kashubians are only northern Poles just like Saxons are northern Germans.

[Comte Arnau]

I'm not saying there are independence movements in the northern Portugal (although there is the Eixo Atlántico). But many people there feel more Galaicas than Spanish or Portuguese.
Is not only by the old Roman province, but also culturally.

Do you happen to know if there is any pro-independence movement in Miranda?

[Elbegast]

Do you happen to know if there is any pro-independence movement in Miranda?

As far as I know, no. What remains there is the language.

[Osweo]

I would redraw the German borders like that:

http://www.kaiserkurier.de/kurier053/images/deutsches-reich.gif


Leliana, I know you were responding to a Chauvinist fool, but why do you like the manifestly un-national borders of 1914???

Those of 1920 made far more sense, ethnically. Why do you want these minority areas in your state?
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7526/deutschesreich.gif
Do you think it's great fun having to deal with angry conquered peoples?

(Of course, the Luzhatskie Serby are apparently happy to be German as well as Sorbian, but I included them for completion's sake :p)

[Kacca]

Borders of Europe based on cultural and economic values (in my opinion)

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/846/hihjlikhil.jpg

[Redar14]

I would redraw the German borders like that:

http://www.kaiserkurier.de/kurier053/images/deutsches-reich.gif


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17934&d=1323298244

I would the German borders like that:
http://i4.ytimg.com/bg/k0U6AraTZDg8sR4gz-0wFQ/101.jpg?app=bg&v=4c07aa03

[Damião de Góis]

I'm not saying there are independence movements in the northern Portugal (although there is the Eixo Atlántico). But many people there feel more Galaicas than Spanish or Portuguese.
Is not only by the old Roman province, but also culturally.

I had to google this Eixo Atlântico. It seems that they are a non official organization focused on economy and urban development in the region.

About people feeling Galician and not Spanish or Portuguese i would say that it exists in Galicia but it's extremely rare in northern Portugal.


Do you happen to know if there is any pro-independence movement in Miranda?

I've never heard of any but i'm sure that there is some guy in Miranda planning independence in his basement. :p

[W. R.]

Don't write shit belarussian liar!What is the source of the map? The Polish census of 1931? Look what the Polish wikipedia says on that:

Spis jest uważany za wypaczony ze względów politycznych, zawyżający liczbę Polaków i zaniżający liczbę mniejszości.
Podobnie jak w przypadku poprzedniego spisu, wiarygodność spisu z 1931 r. w odniesieniu do statystyki narodowościowej na terenach wschodnich była kwestionowana przez polskich statystyków i historyków już przed wojną (Krzywicki, 1922; Nadobnik, 1922; Krysiński, 1932, 1937), a także po wojnie (Szturm de Sztrem, 1946; Landau i Tomaszewski, 1971; Żarnowski, 1973; Michowicz, 1982).http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drugi_Powszechny_Spis_Ludno%C5%9Bci

Even Poles themselves don't believe that the census was fair. And you want others to believe it? :rolleyes:

[Breedingvariety]

Currently a) no Germans live there, b) the land is populated by Poles, c) the population of Germany is not growing and doesn't really need new lands. Does the fact that the borders of 1871-1914 look so noice make all three points irrelevant?
Thread is about redrawing of borders. Just like after WW2 redrawing of borders meant mass resettlement, so our redrawing of borders could include that.

The eastern border of Poland 1921-1939 is neither historic nor ethnographic, it had never existed before.
But such borders were somewhat determined by Polish military strength. As far as I'm concerned Poland could have whole of Belarus and Ukraine- fake states anyway.

[Elbegast]

I had to google this Eixo Atlântico. It seems that they are a non official organization focused on economy and urban development in the region.

About people feeling Galician and not Spanish or Portuguese i would say that it exists in Galicia but it's extremely rare in northern Portugal.

Indeed, only a minority feel itself as Galician, but they exist.

Eixo Atlântico is not a political movement, nor could it, because it is prohibited by Portuguese law any regionalist party, autonomist or nationalist non-Portuguese. By the way:

Eixo Atlántico do Noroeste Peninsular is a transborder association integrated by the main cities of the Euroregion Galicia - North of Portugal, forming its urban system. Created in 1992, with the support of the European Commission, its foundation was sponsored under the person of the President of the Republic of Portugal, Mr. Mário Soares, who presided over the constituent assembly in Viana do Castelo.

[Leliana]

Currently a) no Germans live there, b) the land is populated by Poles, c) the population of Germany is not growing and doesn't really need new lands.
And why aren't Germans living there currently? Because they were expelled! Poles were settled to there from East Poland to the annexed German areas. Polish population isn't growing like fury either. It's a matter of perspective! :) Germany has a population of 82 million people and our current country is actually too small for so many people. Poland is almost as large as Germany but has only 39 million people.

Does the fact that the borders of 1871-1914 look so noice make all three points irrelevant?
Your points aren't irrelevant and I don't want a new war over the borders but the situation of 1945 was 'irrelevant' to the Polish people similarily. Germans were the clear majority in Prussia and Silesia for lots of centuries? Deport or kill them! Not enough Poles living in Prussia or Silesia after the deportation of the Germans? Bring them in from territories from the east of Poland.

Do the current Polish borders look so 'noice' that all of my points are irrelevant? :confused:


Leliana, I know you were responding to a Chauvinist fool, but why do you like the manifestly un-national borders of 1914???

Those of 1920 made far more sense, ethnically. Why do you want these minority areas in your state?
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7526/deutschesreich.gif
Hey this map is okay to me, too! :) I wanted a map where the lost territories of the east are included, plus the unity with Austria. But your map shows a Sorb enclave in Germany, that's not reasonable at all. That region was never independent from Germany and the Sorbs don't have problems. No need to create new trouble by creating a slavic enclave within Germany. :P

And why no Memelland for us?

Do you think it's great fun having to deal with angry conquered peoples?
I want friends and happy people as neighbours but not on our own costs and expense. My map was fair but your map is more fair. ;)

[Laudanum]

Germany has a population of 82 million people and our current country is actually too small for so many people. Poland is almost as large as Germany but has only 39 million people.


http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11707/11988845.jpg

[Leliana]

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11707/11988845.jpg
That's not fair! :P Hitler was wrong, we didn't need the Lebensraum im Osten. The borders of 1938 after the connection with Austria were alright. But the borders of 1938, before the war took place, were taken from us after 1945. Almost 30% of our state area! :(

[Hurrem sultana]

make less babies!!! :D

[Laudanum]

That's not fair! :P Hitler was wrong, we didn't need the Lebensraum im Osten. The borders of 1938 after the connection with Austria were alright. But the borders of 1938, before the war took place, were taken from us after 1945. Almost 30% of our state area! :(

Yeah, I know. It's Polish now. What are you gonna do about it, though?:P

[Redar14]

Today's Polish westen lands are recompensation for german crimes. You should remember that german barbarians killed 3 milions of Poles and totally destroyed most polish cities.



But the borders of 1938, before the war took place, were taken from us after 1945. Almost 30% of our state area! :(

After WW2 Polish territory is less than twenty percent.

[Der Steinadler]

Poland has always been a buffer state.

Germany only has to wait for the final demise of Russia for it to become redundant.

[Osweo]

Hey this map is okay to me, too! :) I wanted a map where the lost territories of the east are included, plus the unity with Austria. But your map shows a Sorb enclave in Germany, that's not reasonable at all. That region was never independent from Germany and the Sorbs don't have problems. No need to create new trouble by creating a slavic enclave within Germany. :P
They might be better off alone, and better able to conserve their language. It's for them to decide, though. I'm just thinking aloud. :)

And why no Memelland for us?
I used a scan from an old GERMAN ethnographic atlas to make my map. Memel, or Klaipeda... ;), was surrounded by solidly Lithuanian territory. Germany had the chance to Germanicise these areas, but didn't succeed. They belong with their countrymen of Vilnius.


I want friends and happy people as neighbours but not on our own costs and expense. My map was fair but your map is more fair. ;)
My map is fair as a bit of nostalgic dreaming. Nowadays, however, I wouldn't push for too many alterations of the map. Russian-controlled East Prussia, Pommern up to the old Holy Roman Empire border, a LITTLE bit of Silesia would be MORE than enough to right the old wrongs without antagonising your neighbours too much. You could BUY them some time in coming decades, indeed... But let us fix our internal problems first.

[Leliana]

But don't you think that the complete shift of Poland to the west after the war at our expense was wrong and unfair?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/7/71/Westverschiebung.Polens.gif/656px-Westverschiebung.Polens.gif

[W. R.]

Just like after WW2 redrawing of borders meant mass resettlement, so our redrawing of borders could include that.Wow, looks like redrawing of borders on the internet is a serious business...

[Osweo]

But don't you think that the complete shift of Poland to the west after the war at our expense was wrong and unfair?

A little too far. But as has already been said, there had been plans to annihilate the entire Polish nation.

Stalin did as we should expect him to have done. There was no surprise there. The fault lies with Nazi policy makers, who refused to accord human dignity to the Slavonic peoples, and refused to be content with a restoration of the 1938 border. After such a war, Germany was inevitably going to suffer a massive punishment. :( Unfortunate, but true.

[Redar14]

But don't you think that the complete shift of Poland to the west after the war at our expense was wrong and unfair?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/7/71/Westverschiebung.Polens.gif/656px-Westverschiebung.Polens.gif

Typical polish cities after kraut occupation

http://m.onet.pl/_m/e8b9eb53540e9437895dc50720ccd317,14,1.jpg
http://www.poranny.pl/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=KP&Date=20111127&Category=ALBUMB&ArtNo=159735568&Ref=AR&border=0&MaxW=666
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e137/tresor2/poznan4585/Image5.jpg

Warsaw after kraut occupation:

Cxb5H77wYt0

[Leliana]

Typical polish cities after kraut occupation

Warsaw after kraut occupation:

I don't want a photo war with you, I could post endless photos of abused, mass-executed and killed Germans in Köslin, Breslau, Stettin, Danzig, Liegnitz or Rügenwalde who were German cities and are Polish cities now...

And your country was a victim, too: Poland was larger before the shift to the west! The new Poland has less square miles than the old Poland.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Polen_administrativ_1921-1939.png

[Redar14]

Wikipedia is bible of fools, please show me professional neutral (non-polish or non-belarussian ) historic text which undermines polish census from 1931.

[Gaztelu]

I am all for Germany returning to its pre-WWI borders, although Slesvig-Holsten should be given to Denmark.

Belgium, Luxembourg, and Noord-Nauw van Kales should become part of the Netherlands.

Brittany, according to its 1400 borders, should be given to the UK.

Denmark, Norway, and Iceland should be united.

B&H should be split up among the Croats and Serbs.

Aquitaine, Midi-Pyrennes, and Languedoc-Roussillon should become part of Spain.

Corsica should be given to Italy.

South Tyrol is to become part of Austria.

Montenegro and Kosovo are to be reunited with Serbia.

FYROM will be broken up among the Albanians, Greeks, and Serbs.

Erdély should be given to Hungary.

Moldavia should be united with Romania.

The Poles can have Belarus.

Czechoslovakia is to return.

Finland will claim all the Finnic regions of Russia.

Ukraine should be part of Russia.

Greece can have Turkey.

NI will be reunited with Ireland.



I am better than the Congress of Vienna.

[Redar14]

I don't want a photo war with you, I could post endless photos of abused, mass-executed and killed Germans in Köslin, Breslau, Stettin, Danzig, Liegnitz or Rügenwalde who where German cities and are Polish cities now...

You started War, you killed many millions of innocent people, you destroyed Europe and today's you pay the penalty.

[Leliana]

You started War.
Basically 'we' started the war but there was a story before the war. :rolleyes: Keywords: Danzig, war threats against Germany, organized riots against Germans in Poland...

And we don't have to pay any penalty because we weren't born when the war took place! Do you think we are so stupid to accept eternal sin and eternal shame? I'm innocent, 95% of Germans are innocent. I don't accept that you want to play the victim card to blame the guilt on me and my people. The war generation dies out and is very low in numbers.

[Unurautare]

You started War, you killed many millions of innocent people, you destroyed Europe and today's you pay the penalty.

Only because p0lacks were mad and wanted to held onto German majority areas that didn't rightfully belong to them. You always want moar! :coffee:

[Osweo]

You started War, you killed many millions of innocent people, you destroyed Europe and today's you pay the penalty.

Yeah yeah, and the Poles were innocent angels in the 30s. :yawn:

What the occupiers did in Poland is disgusting, and deserving of the utmost condemnation, but there were Polish actions that helped lead to the outbreak of war too.

And panowstwo in the east was built on the marginalisation of the Russian peasantry.

[Logan]

You started War, you killed many millions of innocent people, you destroyed Europe and today's you pay the penalty.

That would be the Nazis, not the German people.

The U.S.S.R was let to have too much at the wars end. The allied powers ballsed it up as they did in the first.

[W. R.]

Germany has a population of 82 million people and our current country is actually too small for so many people. Poland is almost as large as Germany but has only 39 million people.Leliana, do you have peasants among your ancestors? I mean what if the hunger for land is hereditary? :p
Wikipedia is bible of fools, please show me professional neutral (non-polish or non-belarussian) historic text which undermines polish census from 1931.But you got the surnames, and you live in Poland. I suggest that you should go to a library and try to find the literature on the matter.

It is understandable if one refuses to trust Belarusian or Ukrainian historians on that question but why would one mistrust Polish historians who have come to those conclusions?

[Nglund]

It would probably turn out to be something like this:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17972&d=1323382442

[Hevneren]

That's not fair! :P Hitler was wrong, we didn't need the Lebensraum im Osten. The borders of 1938 after the connection with Austria were alright. But the borders of 1938, before the war took place, were taken from us after 1945. Almost 30% of our state area! :(

I know it's not fun for you Germans to lose so much territory, but honestly Germany shouldn't have started two world wars in the first place. Your governments from 1914-1918 and 1933-1945 brought you into this mess, and as always the people paid the price. :shrug:

Besides, think of all the pain and suffering that was caused from these two world wars, and the countries that were occupied by Germany during WWII. My mother went hungry for days during the occupation, because the German soldiers stole from our people. WWII caused pain both for Germany and the nations Germany attacked. It was a lose-lose situation.

[Gaztelu]

I know it's not fun for you Germans to lose so much territory, but honestly Germany shouldn't have started two world wars in the first place.

Explain to me how Germany started WWI.

[Unurautare]

Explain to me how Germany started WWI.

He should also explain how Germany started World War 2,since they only declared war on Poland(the country abandoned to the Soviets after the war). :laugh:

[Libertas]

Explain to me how Germany started WWI.

If not Germany, which country exactly?:lightbul:

[Hevneren]

Denmark, Norway, and Iceland should be united.

:mad:

Why this insistence - especially from non-Nordic posters - on uniting Nordic countries with each other? We generally don't want this, and in the beginning of our nationhood we were all separate. The Kalmar Union was an artificial political union, not a cultural or ethnic union, and most Norwegians, Swedes and Danes didn't even know they were in a union!

Historically, Norway has been screwed over in its unions with Denmark and Sweden. Denmark was far worse than Sweden though, and during our National Romanticist era the union with Denmark was known as "The 400-Year Night". We don't want any more unions! We voted "no" to the EU twice, while all the other countries (apart from Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein) were suckered into joining.

How about uniting the USA with Mexico instead? ;)

[W. R.]

He should also explain how Germany started World War 2,since they only declared war on Poland(the country abandoned to the Soviets after the war). :laugh:In response to Hitler's invasion of Poland, Britain and France, both allies of the overrun nation declared war on Germany.

Simple as that. :lightbul:


EfHMCpiZcyo

[Hevneren]

Basically 'we' started the war but there was a story before the war. :rolleyes: Keywords: Danzig, war threats against Germany, organized riots against Germans in Poland...

I don't think Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium etc. threatened Germany. :shrug:


And we don't have to pay any penalty because we weren't born when the war took place! Do you think we are so stupid to accept eternal sin and eternal shame? I'm innocent, 95% of Germans are innocent. I don't accept that you want to play the victim card to blame the guilt on me and my people. The war generation dies out and is very low in numbers.

Of course, you're right, but that doesn't change history. I understand that it's uncomfortable to you, as a young German, to read about what the generation of your grandparents did, and I don't blame you for feeling attacked for it.

[Hevneren]

It would probably turn out to be something like this:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17972&d=1323382442

I see the English imperial attitude isn't gone yet. ;)

[Redar14]

Basically ' I'm innocent, 95% of Germans are innocent. I don't accept that you want to play the victim card to blame the guilt on me and my people. The war generation dies out and is very low in numbers.

Do you have start new war? :) Come to us,We will kill every invaders. I thing that germans are most cruel, barbarian nation in Europe, you exterminated Velets, Obotrites, Redars, old baltic prussian tribes, European Jews, a lot of Poles and Russians... You should be grateful that Europeans didn't erase Germany after WW2. What do you write about German/Prussian occupation greater Poland and Pomerania in XIX centuries? It was another german crime.


Poland in second half of XVIII centuries:
http://zso4poznan05.w.interia.pl/konk05/michalkrzysztof/img/polskazabory.jpg

western ethnic polish lands stolen by german thieves:
http://img.interia.pl/encyklopedia/nimg/pruski15_map.gif

[Redar14]

Slavic tribes in IX century:

http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/slowianie.jpg

Germany in XIX century:
http://img.interia.pl/encyklopedia/nimg/prusy1914.gif

"Drang nach Osten" doctrine didn''t created by Hitler.

[Redar14]

EfHMCpiZcyo

"polish attack" on gliwice was german provocation!

[Osweo]

:mad:

Why this insistence - especially from non-Nordic posters - on uniting Nordic countries with each other? We generally don't want this, and in the beginning of our nationhood we were all separate. The Kalmar Union was an artificial political union, not a cultural or ethnic union, and most Norwegians, Swedes and Danes didn't even know they were in a union!

Historically, Norway has been screwed over in its unions with Denmark and Sweden. Denmark was far worse than Sweden though, and during our National Romanticist era the union with Denmark was known as "The 400-Year Night". We don't want any more unions! We voted "no" to the EU twice, while all the other countries (apart from Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein) were suckered into joining.

How about uniting the USA with Mexico instead? ;)

:mad:

Why this insistence - especially from non-British Isles posters - on uniting British Isles countries with each other? We generally don't want this, and in the beginning of our nationhood we were all separate. The Kingdom of Ireland was an artificial political union, not a cultural or ethnic union, and most Ultonians, Munstermen and Leinster folk didn't even know they were in a union!

Historically, the Ulster Scots have been screwed over in their unions with Southern Ireland. We don't want any more unions!

How about uniting Norway with Sweden instead? ;)

****

Polyak, don't criticise Germany's Drang nach Osten while simultaneously posting maps of your own Napęd na wschód! :tsk:

[Damião de Góis]

It would probably turn out to be something like this:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17972&d=1323382442

Cool map, but why the Flash symbol? :D

http://www.telemoveis.com/images/stories/flash_001.jpg

[Nglund]

Cool map, but why the Flash symbol? :D


http://6milphil.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dscf3594.jpg?w=450 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Union_of_Fascists)

[Hurrem sultana]

And we don't have to pay any penalty because we weren't born when the war took place! Do you think we are so stupid to accept eternal sin and eternal shame? I'm innocent, 95% of Germans are innocent. I don't accept that you want to play the victim card to blame the guilt on me and my people. The war generation dies out and is very low in numbers.



yet you are blaming me for what happened few hundreds years ago between islam and christendom

no,i say blame the germans forever ;) :D

[Unurautare]

In response to Hitler's invasion of Poland, Britain and France, both allies of the overrun nation declared war on Germany.

Simple as that. :lightbul:


EfHMCpiZcyo

Bullshit,they "formed an alliance",which they dishonored at the end of the war :D , in the last moment and...USSR attacked Poland too. ;)

[Hevneren]

:mad:

Why this insistence - especially from non-British Isles posters - on uniting British Isles countries with each other? We generally don't want this, and in the beginning of our nationhood we were all separate. The Kingdom of Ireland was an artificial political union, not a cultural or ethnic union, and most Ultonians, Munstermen and Leinster folk didn't even know they were in a union!

Historically, the Ulster Scots have been screwed over in their unions with Southern Ireland. We don't want any more unions!

How about uniting Norway with Sweden instead? ;)

****

Polyak, don't criticise Germany's Drang nach Osten while simultaneously posting maps of your own Napęd na wschód! :tsk:

I haven't called for separating Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland from England on this thread, if that's what you're eluding to. It was only after an English poster came up with the Kalmar nonsense that I wrote that in a response. Personally, I believe the peoples of the British isles must choose what they themselves want. If the Scots and Welsh choose to be independent, who are we to deny them? If they choose to stay British - again - who are we to deny them? :shrug:

[Logan]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/LimesSaxoniae_Hornbek.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Limes.saxoniae.wmt.png

I suppose it has been worse.:eek:

[SilverKnight]

Here's mines, hope you Europeans like it:)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1906/europeys.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/europeys.png/)

1- Russian Federal Empire "Big Red"
2- Baltic Union
3- Scandinavian Union
4- N. Slavic Union
5- S. Slavic Union
6- Turkish Empire, or Ottoman (all Muslims displaced here)
7-Kingdom of Romania (all gypsies displaced here)
8- Kingdom of Hungary
9- Greek Republics (Expanded)
10 - Germanic Republics
11- Kingdom of Italy
12- Kingdoms of Britain and Ireland
13- French Republics
14- Kingdoms of Spain & Portugal (Iberian Union)

[Osweo]

I haven't called for separating Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland from England on this thread, if that's what you're eluding to. It was only after an English poster came up with the Kalmar nonsense that I wrote that in a response. Personally, I believe the peoples of the British isles must choose what they themselves want. If the Scots and Welsh choose to be independent, who are we to deny them? If they choose to stay British - again - who are we to deny them? :shrug:

You advocated the Union of Ireland. :yawn:

You know, like a typical interfering foreigner who knows fuck all about what's going on here.

[Unurautare]

7-Kingdom of Romania (all gypsies displaced here)


Gypsies belong in India but I say displace them to America,you already have niggers,mexicans,indians and amerindians,it can't hurt. :)

[Damião de Góis]

14- Kingdoms of Spain & Portugal (Iberian Union)

That didn't work when it happened... it was so lousy that we rebelled after 60 years.

[Hevneren]

3- Scandinavian Union

Seriously? :rolleyes2:

Why the hell are we supposed to be one nation, while most of the rest of Europe get to keep their national identities? Norway's been a nation since 872 AD, which is older than a lot of other European countries, like Germany, the Netherlands or Belgium. If we are to lose our national identity, then so should these "new" countries. :shrug:

We don't want any unions here. We don't want the European Union and we don't want the Scandinavian Union. The idea of unions is a continental European idea, we're not a part of it and we don't want to be. :thumb down2

[Peyrol]

Olè

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5507/98977523.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/98977523.png/)

[Hevneren]

You advocated the Union of Ireland. :yawn:

You know, like a typical interfering foreigner who knows fuck all about what's going on here.

Only after English posters made pro-Kalmar Union posts. Maybe your countrymen should stop advocating an imperialistic destruction of Norwegian nationality and identity, before you complain to me? :shrug:

[Osweo]

Only after English posters made pro-Kalmar Union posts. Maybe your countrymen should stop advocating an imperialistic destruction of Norwegian nationality and identity, before you complain to me? :shrug:

Do you only ever make stupid posts to react to what someone else has said which you think is stupid? Where do you think this idiotic childish 'tit for tat' will get you?

Why don't you make clever posts, with your own original well-considered content in them?

Ah, I know; it's far EASIER to just talk shit and not bother thinking. :coffee:

[SilverKnight]

Here's mines, hope you Europeans like it:)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1906/europeys.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/europeys.png/)

1- Russian Federal Empire "Big Red"
2- Baltic Union
3- Scandinavian Union
4- N. Slavic Union
5- S. Slavic Union
6- Turkish Empire, or Ottoman (all Muslims displaced here)
7-Kingdom of Romania (all gypsies displaced here)
8- Kingdom of Hungary
9- Greek Republics (Expanded)
10 - Germanic Republics
11- Kingdom of Italy
12- Kingdoms of Britain and Ireland
13- French Republics
14- Kingdoms of Spain & Portugal (Iberian Union)





Gypsies belong in India but I say displace them to America,you already have niggers,mexicans,indians and amerindians,it can't hurt. :)

No thank you ;), all of these you mentioned behave 10x better then gyspsies.
Let Romania handle them, they can even set strict population control on them if they wish.



That didn't work when it happened... it was so lousy that we rebelled after 60 years.

Is never late for another try. And it's sort of a confederacy or a union den just one whole country.




Seriously? :rolleyes2:

Why the hell are we supposed to be one nation, while most of the rest of Europe get to keep their national identities? Norway's been a nation since 872 AD, which is older than a lot of other European countries, like Germany, the Netherlands or Belgium. If we are to lose our national identity, then so should these "new" countries. :shrug:

We don't want any unions here. We don't want the European Union and we don't want the Scandinavian Union. The idea of unions is a continental European idea, we're not a part of it and we don't want to be. :thumb down2

Thanks for sharing your opinion on this matter I was wondering if you Scandinavians really liked an idea as such. Well at least a union separate will separate you all from the claws of the EU;).

[W. R.]

Bullshit,they "formed an alliance",which they dishonored at the end of the war :D , in the last moment and...USSR attacked Poland too. ;)At least they had guts to declare war on Germany. To declare war both on Germany and the USSR would have been madness.

Besides the USSR had the Curzon Line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line) (based on ethnographic borders) to justify its actions. That could mean something to the UK and France too.

[Hevneren]

Do you only ever make stupid posts to react to what someone else has said which you think is stupid? Where do you think this idiotic childish 'tit for tat' will get you?

Why don't you make clever posts, with your own original well-considered content in them?

Ah, I know; it's far EASIER to just talk shit and not bother thinking. :coffee:

Only minutes ago you were writing "tit for tat" posts and bitching and complaining about my posts. Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes:

[safinator]

Europe is good as it is now.
The only thing that need to be done is to block the frontiers.

[Unurautare]

No thank you ;), all of these you mentioned behave 10x better then gyspsies.
Let Romania handle them, they can even set strict population control on them if they wish.

The very most gypsies are not from Romania,and those that are from here originally come from India,so you fail. Send them to America,they become Americanized and maybe they'll be elected president,like Obama. ;)

[Hevneren]

Thanks for sharing your opinion on this matter I was wondering if you Scandinavians really liked an idea as such. Well at least a union separate will separate you all from the claws of the EU;).

Naw, no new union is preferable to the EU. How about all nations just stayed independent and any nation that wanted could leave the EU after a vote by the people? Norway isn't in the EU and neither is Iceland. Sweden, Denmark and Finland could do like us and regain more of their independence in the process, but it's hard for them to leave.

Anyway, I asked you a question. Why would you propose a Scandinavian Union when this is an artificial institution and for example Norway is older than many of the bigger European countries? A Benelux-German speaking union would make more sense.

[Unurautare]

At least they had guts to declare war on Germany. To declare war both on Germany and the USSR would have been madness.

Besides the USSR had the Curson Line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line) (based on ethnographic borders) to justify its actions. That could mean something to the UK and France too.

Guts my ass,it was what they wanted,and they did nothing do try to help Poland while it was bombed and invaded by Germany(and later USSR). :D

@Curzon Line:Again bullshit of yours,Germany had Germans living in Poland,millions,right outside the border that were part of the Prussian state and the German Empire for centuries.
You try to justify the actions of USSR,some bolshevik state that has nothing to do with ethnic-nationalism or with Russian/East Slavic feeling(in fact they destroyed most of the Russian culture and used Russian churches for other purposes,like deposits), but it's fail.

[Osweo]

Besides the USSR had the Curson Line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line) (based on ethnographic borders) to justify its actions. That could mean something to the UK and France too.
CurZon! :p

This ancient and aristocratic surname, recorded as Curzon and the variant Corzon, has two possible interpretations, although the origin in both cases is Norman-French. Introduced into England after the Conquest of 1066, the first of the name were granted extensive estates and lands in East Anglia. Their name was from Old French pre 7th centry nickname "Curt", a short form of the Roman-Latin "Curtius", and actually translating as curtailed, a baptismal name of endearment for a small person. The second possible origin is locational from a place called "Notre-dame-de-Courson" in the department of Calvados, in the former dukedom of Normandy.

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/curzon#ixzz1fzhB6yR0

Curzon B, with Lvov going to Poland might have been better, though. :(


Only minutes ago you were writing "tit for tat" posts and bitching and complaining about my posts. Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes:
:D I was pointing out your hypocrisy in whining all day and night about foreigners meddling. I'm nice like that. :cheers:

[Hevneren]

:D I was pointing out your hypocrisy in whining all day and night about foreigners meddling. I'm nice like that. :cheers:

And I was doing the same. Ouch! This makes my head hurt!

[Comte Arnau]

EUROPE, 5 Districts, capital Vienna.


http://oi44.tinypic.com/2612ghy.jpg

[Supreme American]

I wouldn't... There's been way too much fighting and bloodletting over European borders already. Leave it alone.

[Jarl]

Yeah yeah, and the Poles were innocent angels in the 30s. :yawn:

What the occupiers did in Poland is disgusting, and deserving of the utmost condemnation, but there were Polish actions that helped lead to the outbreak of war too.

And panowstwo in the east was built on the marginalisation of the Russian peasantry.


It is worth keeping in mind that the root of these issues was by no means as young the new Polish state that had to deal with them. It was the legacy in of the Dutchy of Lithuania and the union. Poland in 1918-1939 was, in terms of social structure, worlds apart from what it is now. It was a society in which class still played a dominant role. And particularly in the East, the "Kresy" where semi-feudal magnates owned stretches of land about the size of Belgium still into XIX century. These people were influencial and it was in their interest to keep as much of their inheritance as they could. Obviously they did not expect that the Bolsheviks will let them keep anything.

Now, the funny thing is... These people were Polish-speaking and formed part of the Polish nation, yet nonetheless, they very often came from the local polonised Lithuanian/Ruthenian nobility, much like the Silesian or Pomeranian upper classes which in part descended from the germanised Poles or Wends. If you go back tracking their roots through the centuries you should quickly realise they represent an amalgamate of Lithuanian, Polish, Ruthenian and sometimes German, Russian or even Tatar families. Grand Duchy of Lithuania was for a long time highly autonomous and though these people felt a part of a wider nation, they were still "Lithuanians" and they rightly considered Lithuania/Ruthenia as their home country. The national Lithuanian and Ukrainian movements were fueled mainly by common classes. So there was a conflict of interests between the Polish and polonised upper classes and the "masses". This is simplistic as many Catholics supported Poland since their faith was the main determinant of their identity, but it was more less the case. And this proved to be the curse of II RP, particularly in Ukraine.

Would they be better off under the Bolsheviks? Now that is a different matter. Looking at Ukraine now, I may safely say that modern Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian nationalism owe their roots partly to the Polish state which provoked and stimulated such political movements, mostly negatively. However there was some room for them in II RP, even if only very little. Bolsheviks dealt with them much more efficiently than the inept Polish "Sanacja".

[Jake Featherston]

Kaliningrad was never German. It is a piece of land in Eastern Europe, which Germans have no right to. They do not belong in the East.

Kaliningrad is located in Central Europe. Germany is a nation that straddles the border between Western and Central Europe, and Kaliningrad was German (or Prussian, or otherwise Germanic) controlled for many centuries, prior to 1945. I'm not insisting on the return of all of East Prussia, or Memel, but it makes more sense for Germany to control that territory than it does for Russia to do so. Poland and Lithuania might naturally desire it, but they have no substantive historic claim to it (and neither does Russia). Only Germany seems to have any claim founded in anything more than the historical inertia Russians are relying on as a rationale for continuing to posses their Bolshevist war booty.

[W. R.]

Guts my ass,it was what they wanted,and they did nothing do try to help Poland while it was bombed and invaded by Germany(and later USSR). :DWhat did they want? Did they want the destruction of Poland? Did they want Germany to get some more land in the east? :rolleyes: Really?

Yes, they were reluctant to fight. And nevertheless despite that they did declare the war.
You try to justify the actions of USSR,some bolshevik stateNo, I don't. I am just pointing out the small difference between Hitler and Stalin: Stalin took non-Polish lands and stopped at the Curzon Line. Hitler took the lands populated by Germans and did not stopped there, he subjugated and included in the Reich the whole ethnographic Poland.

[Jake Featherston]

I could agree with your list, until these last two. Austria is its own nation. Also, what do you mean by "reversion of Greenland" to the USA??? Greenland is old Norwegian territory. :rolleyes:

"Reversion" was admittedly a poor choice of words, but Greenland is part of North America, not Europe, and so should be an independent republic, or a territory of either the USA, or Canada. I don't really approve of things like French Guyana, Martinique, or Miquelon either, but those are either loaded with darkies, or tiny, nearly uninhabited islands of almost no consequence. But Danish sovereignty over such a major North American landmass as Greenland offends my Monrovian sensibilities. During the early 1940s, there was some vague talk of a U.S. annexation of Sicily. That, too, would have been a travesty. We have our side of the Atlantic, and you guys have yours.

[Damião de Góis]

Is never late for another try. And it's sort of a confederacy or a union den just one whole country.


That could work some centuries earlier, not now. None would benefit and culturally it doesn't make sense these days.

[Jarl]

But don't you think that the complete shift of Poland to the west after the war at our expense was wrong and unfair?


Yes it was. But were the paritions of Poland fair? Was taking some good 150-120 years off a country's independence and integrity for the sake of one's own nationalism and imperialism, fair? I highly doubt.

People forget about it. It is common in history that one country nipps a bit of land off another. But it is not a common thing in history that the second largest state in Europe gets dismemberd and occupied by its neighbours. Poland was much more like a federal country with great powers in the hands of the Parlimant and much autonomy granted to the regions. It was too weak to compete with the centralised absolute monarchies. It did not even have conscription. But does this justify grabbing land? Colonising it? Treating its inhabitatns as second rate citizens? A country which has had a relatively sparse German settlement suddenly became immersed by German influx and German colonialism after 1772. This is a question of a moral nature. The answer solely depends on what you believe in.




I don't want a photo war with you, I could post endless photos of abused, mass-executed and killed Germans in Köslin, Breslau, Stettin, Danzig, Liegnitz or Rügenwalde who were German cities and are Polish cities now...

And your country was a victim, too: Poland was larger before the shift to the west! The new Poland has less square miles than the old Poland.



True! But then Poles were not the original inhabitants of these lands. They came as settlers just like the Germans did to Silesia and Pomerania. And for a long time they formed majority in towns and cities. And vast majority of adult Poles know that this was not originally Polish soil.

Obviously every region has a different history. The case of Pomerania is not half as complicated as that of Silesia. But there is a point, these lands were by XXth century German by ethnic majority. People forget though, that this was not always so. Take the names - Breslau - Vratislavia, Liegnitz - Legnica. Many Germans are not even aware of the fact that Polish was still spoken in the villages outside Breslau, Strehlen, Ohlau, Brieg, Namslau and even Grunberg or Zullichau as late as XIX century.

In fact, when professor Bak, a Polish dialectologist, was researching the local Polish dialect in 1945 there were whole Polish-speaking villages in Brieg, Namslau and Gross Wartenberg (once Polnish Wartenberg) counties. Even in Ohlau he met people whose parents or great-grandparents spoke Polish and who could remember some words and phrases. And no. Not ALL of these people considered themselves as Germans. Not even in XXth century.

So no. This is not a story of evil Poles or Germans, but of how strong nationalisms destroyed whole communities. No historian would deny that Danzig or Breslau were founded upon German laws and were by strong majority German. But people forget about these petty little details like that Polish masses were held in several churches in Breslau into the XVII century, that many Polish countrymen from Westprussian lowlands or Silesia came in search for work to the big German cities, that there was a Polish fleet stationed in Gdańsk and for 350 years the city was Poland's main harbour city exporting grain, and goods to the whole West and each year drawing merchants and nobility from the whole country. But these are the details that reveal the true story of Danzig or Breslau.

Sure. Most of these lands were German by XXth century. No doubts. Why people could not live together peacefully? I am not sure, but the burden of history proved too heavy. One evil sparked off another. And by the time the horrors of II WW engulfed whole nations most people had had a fair share of suffering on both sides. I am not trying to justify the evil. I am simply trying to point that this is not a clear "right" and "wrong" situation. Poland paid a hefty price for the Eastern expasinism too.




If someone expects to live off another nation and exploit it forever then he must be prepared for consequences. He must be prepared it might back fire if things go wrong. Germany managed to swamp the Polabians and most of Pomeranians and Silesians through the past 1000 years or so. But the gods became less favourable. It could not gulp down Poland. If not for the WW I fuck up, and another fuck up in WW II, perhaps it would. Anyway. Germany's aims and plans as to Poland were very clear. It was a fight for survival.

[SilverKnight]

The very most gypsies are not from Romania,and those that are from here originally come from India,so you fail. Send them to America,they become Americanized and maybe they'll be elected president,like Obama. ;)
Yes I know, what I mean by them being from Romania is that they have being there for a long time (since around 11th century) and plus make a large percentage of the total Romani/gypsy population in Europe. America? we got even less to do with us so why dump them here? No thanks. We might have Africans, Latin Americans and other group of immigrants here but at least they have adapted very well unlike then what gypsies have in Europe for centuries. India might be their homeland but I doubt they'll be accepted over there either.


Naw, no new union is preferable to the EU. How about all nations just stayed independent and any nation that wanted could leave the EU after a vote by the people? Norway isn't in the EU and neither is Iceland. Sweden, Denmark and Finland could do like us and regain more of their independence in the process, but it's hard for them to leave.

Anyway, I asked you a question. Why would you propose a Scandinavian Union when this is an artificial institution and for example Norway is older than many of the bigger European countries? A Benelux-German speaking union would make more sense.

Seeing their geo-political circumstances (ex. Denmark, Norway and Sweden having a monarchy) and also their genetic closeness I choose such such union. It's more like autonomous countries, having their own culture and own government but with a linked economy, but unlike the EU any Scandinavian Union country is free to choose to break from the Union by vote of its people, they're also less dependent on the union.

[Unurautare]

Yes I know what I mean by them being from Romania is that they have being there for a long time (since around 11th century) and plus make a large percentage of the Romani/gypsy population in Europe. And America? we got even less to do with us so why dump them here? No thanks. We might have Africans, Latin Americans and other immigrants here but at least have adapted way better to the culture then what gypsies have in Europe for centuries. India might be their homeland but I doubt they'll be accepted over there either.


No it wasn't 11th century,it was later than that,much later and they make a small portion of gypos in Europe,and they are not accepted in Europe,especially here. America should take them all since it's better at adopting foreigners and making them presidents,either that or deport them back to India.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Movimiento_gitano.jpg

[arcticwolf]

yet you are blaming me for what happened few hundreds years ago between islam and christendom

no,i say blame the germans forever ;) :D



Forget about religion sister, you should be supporting your Slavic brothers and sisters! You are Slav first and foremost, then anything else. ;) I hope you remember this lesson and we won't have to have this talk ever again! :p

[Gaztelu]

:mad:
Why this insistence - especially from non-Nordic posters - on uniting Nordic countries with each other? We generally don't want this, and in the beginning of our nationhood we were all separate. The Kalmar Union was an artificial political union, not a cultural or ethnic union, and most Norwegians, Swedes and Danes didn't even know they were in a union!

Historically, Norway has been screwed over in its unions with Denmark and Sweden. Denmark was far worse than Sweden though, and during our National Romanticist era the union with Denmark was known as "The 400-Year Night". We don't want any more unions! We voted "no" to the EU twice, while all the other countries (apart from Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein) were suckered into joining.

I am not trying to start an argument, although I would like to know how Denmark and Sweden managed to step on Norway throughout the years.


How about uniting the USA with Mexico instead? ;)

I don't know. Ask an American.

[Pallantides]

"The 400 year night" is largly propaganda and myth from the Romanticist era and holds little truth.

http://www.aftenbladet.no/fritid/midten/article640269.ece

Norway was not in any shape or form an oppressed "colony" of Denmark like so many people seem to believe, it was a personal union between Denmark and Norway. Norway had great autonomy through out the period, even if Denmark was the dominant part in the union.

[Logan]

I am not trying to start an argument, although I would like to know how Denmark and Sweden managed to step on Norway throughout the years.



I don't know. Ask an American.

I've read some United States history. Had their chance to back in, I think, 1848 or thereabouts. Short war. They seemed to only desire Mexican submission.

[Joe McCarthy]

I've read some United States history. Had their chance to back in, I think, 1848 or thereabouts. Short war. They seemed to only desire Mexican submission.

There was a move to annex Mexico itself after the Mexican-American War. It was blocked on racialist grounds. Senator John C. Calhoun objected that we could not incorporate race mongrels into a Union based on Saxon government.

[Breedingvariety]

I used a scan from an old GERMAN ethnographic atlas to make my map. Memel, or Klaipeda... ;), was surrounded by solidly Lithuanian territory. Germany had the chance to Germanicise these areas, but didn't succeed. They belong with their countrymen of Vilnius.
Actually Memelland was Germanized eventually. Before WW2 there were both significant German and Lithuanian ethnic groups. I would guess around 50/50. After WW2 almost entire population fled to Germany. It is unlikely Lithuanians of Memelland still speak Lithuanian in any significant numbers.

[BiałaZemsta]

You're not to be taken serious, it's not the first time that your hate for Germans pours out of all your pores.

How ridiculous, you contradict your poor logics in two subsequent posts. :mad: Depriving Polish people is unfair but depriving millions of German people from their centuries-long home areas in Prussia or Silesia is all fine? Again, spoken like a true unsound German hater that you are. Thumb down!
The history of my people tells something different. :rolleyes: Original Poland was located more in the east and that's where it belongs to.

I would redraw the German borders like that:

http://www.kaiserkurier.de/kurier053/images/deutsches-reich.gif

The rest of the European borders could stay as they are, or how they are shown on the map of Caeruleus.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17934&d=1323298244

It is not a contradiction. It is Polish land and always will be.

[Jarl]

It is not a contradiction. It is Polish land and always will be.


The map above is a joke. Claiming Wielkopolska, the craddle of Poland, and Royal Prussia. These:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Unia_polsko-litewska_w_1635.png

...were the Western borders of Poland from XIVth century until 1772 and 1793, and the Germans were inhabiting by majority the Vistulean cities - Danzig, Dirschau and Graudenz. There was also sparse German and Mennonite settlement along the Vistula, much denser in the river delte. Mewe and Thorn were more mixed. In the coutryside only the western fringes of Walecki district (Deutsch Krone), czluchowski (Schlochau) had a solid German population. The Netzedistrikt was predominantly Polish. There was no German majority in Schneidemuhl, very few Germans in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg and fewer German villages along the Netze. Prussia grabbed the land that belonged to the king and church, parcelled it, and founded thousands of villages, expanding thousands of others.


Look at Silesia - until mid XVIII century it was a part of Bohemia. In terms of ethnic composition have a look a these maps:

http://i55.tinypic.com/2h37pc2.gif

Pomerania:

http://kaszuby.bytow.pl/radde/Kaschub.jpg

East Prussia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnic_map_East_Prussia_1907.jpeg


This is still XVIII or XIX century. Germans were in clear minority in Upper Silesia and Royal/West Prussia, while East Prussia and Lower Silesia both had still a substantial Polish minority. Out of all these lands, only the Neumark was clearly a German country, yet even there in XVIIIthe century, there were some Polish-Wendish remnants along the Oder and Netze-Warthe. Pommern was a German country until the line Stolp-Rummelsburg beyond which the Kaschuben and Slovinzen formed a local majority.

[HungAryan]

Allright, I present you, the best map ever map:

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4659/happynow2.png

Enjoy

[Der Steinadler]

Germanic Europe......

http://www.germantribes.org/img/800px-migrations.png

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Slavic tribes in IX century:

http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/slowianie.jpg



Lol at Slowackie (Slovaks) :p

[beaver]

The most part of the Caucasus - out of Russia! With the modern weapons there is no difference - to stand against Turks and Westerners with the Northern Caucasus or without. Georgians and Armenians dream now about the West and they are not our allies no more. WTTH Russians should apply their efforts in this direction? Maybe I'm an idiot? Russian members pls explaine me the point :) (or any other)

[Stars Down To Earth]

The most part of the Caucasus - out of Russia!
Yes and no. Islamic problem areas like Chechnya have to stay under strict Russian control - they're either at your throat or under your feet. If you just let them go, you'd have a new Islamic state right at your border, backed by Saudi Arabia and probably infested by terrorists.

Not to mention that Russia built up the cities and infrastructure for those Caucasus tribes in the first place...

[beaver]

Islamic problem areas like Chechnya have to stay under strict Russian control
Only a Westerner can think in such a way, sorry. Kremlin has no control on Chechnya, at all. Russia can just annihilate Chechnya at every moment, or can arrange there Big Hunt (Chechens, unfortutunately, dont understand this), but Russia cannot control Chechnya. Now, Kremlin just send there great money. Actually, the Kremlin pays tributes to Chechnya to be honest.

[Saruman]

The most part of the Caucasus - out of Russia! With the modern weapons there is no difference - to stand against Turks and Westerners with the Northern Caucasus or without. Georgians and Armenians dream now about the West and they are not our allies no more. WTTH Russians should apply their efforts in this direction? Maybe I'm an idiot? Russian members pls explaine me the point :) (or any other)

I agree that Caucasus is trouble, and Russia might be better off without it but there is one small thing called Oil and natural gas I guess..

[beaver]

I agree that Caucasus is trouble, and Russia might be better off without it but there is one small thing called Oil and natural gas I guess..
Saruman, please specify what do you mean now talking about the oil, I cannot understand.
:) nothing terrible, I'm just cuorious

[Saruman]

Saruman, please specify what do you mean now talking about the oil, I cannot understand.
:) nothing terrible, I'm just cuorious

Well oil and gas are important resources and it is in Russia's interest to control them.:) I'm sure many in Russia have that in mind, caucasus has oil.

[beaver]

Well oil and gas are important resources and it is in Russia's interest to control them. I'm sure many in Russia have that in mind.

Very good reasoning but there was some interruption in communicating. Lets forget if you want or lets investigate (but in this case I will pry my nose into any hole).

[Flintlocke]

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4854/europeoutlinemap.gif

[Ants]

2- Baltic Union

Interesting. May I ask why would you like to see a the "Baltics" combined in a Union?

I think that most of us, from Estonia to Lithuania, are happy with what we have right now ;).

[Redar14]

Lol at Slowackie (Slovaks) :p

czesko-słowackie/czech-slovakian tribes.

[Ants]

http://www.bmwclassic.ee/galerii/album/album177/akm.jpg

http://www.bmwclassic.ee/galerii/album/album177/akn.jpg

[Aptrgangr]

It's not important how the European vassals' borders look like, but that's my hegemonial Germany with me as emperor and king on the top, of course.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/111209/4s3qmdcx.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)
(Naples remains ours, for a Germany in the borders of 1228)

[Tel Errant]

Germany

~Losing territory since 1228~

[Aptrgangr]

Sure, but if I were French, I realistically wouldn't have gone out on a limb recently...even the Brits laugh about your weakness.

http://s14.directupload.net/images/111209/kv98bcu7.gif (http://www.directupload.net)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/782/merkelsarko.jpg

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4650/merkelsarko2.jpg

[Tel Errant]

Bof...
1- Old déjà-vu gif from 'Le petit journal de Yann Barthès'
2- British tabloïd being their francophobe selves
3- Fine example of Charlie Hebdo's bad taste.

You have ruined the Eurozone with your irresponsible ECB's interest rates policies and now you're refusing every sensible solution to the crisis you've put us in, even reclaiming to the Greek the money that the French (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/interactive-graphics/graphic-of-the-day/8868729/Graphic-European-debt-crisis-explained.html) lent them.

[Gaztelu]

Germany is number one problem in Europe since... well since the biginning. The German question should be dealt the German way.

Another Franco-Prussian war?

We all know how this will turn out. :popcorn:

[Tel Errant]

Another Franco-Prussian war?

We all know how this will turn out. :popcorn:

We'll add some german speaking lands to those we already have.

[Aptrgangr]

You have ruined the Eurozone with your irresponsible ECB's interest policies and now you're using your economic position to refuse every sensible solution to the crisis you've put us in, even reclaiming to the Greek the money that the French (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/interactive-graphics/graphic-of-the-day/8868729/Graphic-European-debt-crisis-explained.html) lent them.

Germany is number one problem in Europe since... well since the biginning. The German question should be dealt the German way.

This deserves an own thread, it is infantile naive to think the FRG/Merkel would rule the ECB and EU's economy. Merkel has no more power than the political puppets of all other EU member states have, she can not decide anything alone, without Brussels.
This idea "we" control the ECB, just because it is headquartered in Frankfurt, is idiotic, and show you are not familiar with the basic facts here. The ECB ist an institution of the EU, the French central bank is no way less involved than the German or Dutch one. Before the ECB was set up, there was the discussion whether a keynesian or a fiscal conservative monetary system should be introduced, the decision was to take the latter option, in order to make the € a stable currency like the DM were, this position mostly was backed by the FRG, NL, A and LUX. Those countries with a traditional "weak" currency like the Latin ones accepted this decision, no one of them was forced to join the Eurozone. France easily could have made the decision to keep the Franc, like GB kept the Pound. You whine to the wrong address. Just leave the EU and make trade treaties à la EFTA.

Sarkozy made repeated attempts to increase French political influence on the ECB, which not only was rejected by the FRG, but all others who feared inflation too. Anyway, there are two other points that need to be addressed: Germany's sovereignty, and the strangulation of smaller EU members. Germany is the country which has the least sovereignty, giving away political and economical power and competences to the EU was a precondition for re-union. It would be better the ranters would make their economic homeworks instead of ranting about an inexistent German superpower. The FRG is an economical power, but a political dwarf.
Countries like Spain and Greece traditionally had a very inflationary policy, now that they are stuck with EU regularies, they deeper and deeper slide into economic troubles. No one having supported this is innocent, this goes to both addresses, the FRG and France, who were keen to have favourable conditions for their exports, and Spain, Greece etc. who thought they simply could continue with their policy without implementing any reforms.



We'll add some german speaking lands to those we already have.
Too bad Uncle Sam likes us more than you, like he did when he brushed away GB and F and allowed the German re-union in 1990.
Everyone fears us, albeit for irrational reasons, no one fears you, no matter how many nukes you have, that's the starting situation.

[Artavazt]

. Georgians and Armenians dream now about the West and they are not our allies no more.)

What make's you assume that armenians are not or dont want to be your alllies anymore ?

[Nairi]

What make's you assume that armenians are not or dont want to be your alllies anymore ?

It's simple, because he had some probs with Ar-Man here, now he can't make any post without negative comments about Armenians. His post is so much out of touch with reality that even trying to discuss it is an insult.

Armenians and Ossetians are biggest and only allies of Ruissia and Russia being after Azerbaijani oil still can't let USA take over Armenia, our region is a big fight scene for them.

And Russia (like it was posted above) can't afford having Islamich state of Chechnya on its border, give Chechnya freedom, next day you will have problems financed by Turkey,Afghanistan,etc. not only in Russia but quite soon in Europe as well. Europe should support Russia on Chechnya issue for its own sake.

[Odoacer]

Borders of Europe based on cultural and economic values (in my opinion)

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/846/hihjlikhil.jpg

What makes Sicily radically different from Calabria? Estonia from Finland? Portugal from most of Spain? Your border is nonsensical.


Here's mines, hope you Europeans like it:)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1906/europeys.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/europeys.png/)

2- Baltic Union

Karl's gonna be ticked. :eek:


I don't know. Ask an American.

La respuesta es fácil: No.


http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4854/europeoutlinemap.gif

Only Wales has somehow managed to escape your grip ...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-aAaW9L8iJi4/Tqq6wjaV_2I/AAAAAAAAAN8/N5FBPhPLpIc/s400/cymru-rydd-free-wales.jpg

[beaver]

What make's you assume that armenians are not or dont want to be your alllies anymore ?
Russians vs Armenians and Armenians vs Russians on this forum. All this was very strange for me but several Armenian users (more than a couple):eek: and some Russians. Up to the moment I was sure that Armenians are best friends of Russia but Alexander 3 was right - Russia has no real friends nowhere. Amen.

[Eva]

The most part of the Caucasus - out of Russia! With the modern weapons there is no difference - to stand against Turks and Westerners with the Northern Caucasus or without. Georgians and Armenians dream now about the West and they are not our allies no more. WTTH Russians should apply their efforts in this direction? Maybe I'm an idiot? Russian members pls explaine me the point :) (or any other)

Beaver, if politics were conducted based on those emotional talks in forums, we would all have been exterminated by nuclear weapons long ago :) in fact Armenia is the only stabilizer in the region, Turks and Azeris have their dreams of great muslimic union Turan, a growing ogre by your side, downwards is all the Muslimic world, and Russia understands it and Europe as well, but it's difficult to assume that role alone, I think both of you should be more supportive :)

[beaver]

Beaver, if politics were conducted based on those emotional talks in forums, we would have been exterminated by nuclear weapons long ago in fact Armenia is the only stabilizer in the region, Turks and Azeris have their dreams of great muslimic union Turan, a growing ogre by your side, downwards is all the Muslimic world, and Russia understands it and Europe as well, but it's difficult to assume that role alone, I think both of you should be more supportive
Its not a policy, only my personal understanding of the situation. If Armenians are going to West it would be great for Russia - fuck off the Caucasus!

[Nairi]

but Alexander 3 was right - Russia has no real friends nowhere. Amen.

Ironically Armenia has always been on Russia's side while Russia has many times betrayed Armenia and left us one to one with Turks and Azeris.
Armenian saying is much more correct...
Մենք ենք, մեր սարերը...

[Nairi]

Its not a policy, only my personal understanding of the situation. If Armenians are going to West it would be great for Russia - fuck off the Caucasus!

Even with such comments I still wish Russia the best but for Armenia I without hesitation would choose West with all its flaws.I would choose West even for Russia. All people deserve to live in a free,democratic country where everyone's rights are respected. For now legasy of Soviets is still visible in both our countries. Sometimes it is not bad to adopt better model of life which happened to be Western....

[Drawing-slim]

Sure, but if I were French, I realistically wouldn't have gone out on a limb recently...even the Brits laugh about your weakness.

http://s14.directupload.net/images/111209/kv98bcu7.gif (http://www.directupload.net)
.jpg[/IMG]Lool, this made me laugh, nothing to do with the discussion.

[beaver]

Ironically Armenia has always been on Russia's side while Russia has many times betrayed Armenia and left us one to one with Turks and Azeris.
You will be now a part of the the west and the west will defend you from all threats and make your salaries up to 3000 euro:D:D:D Forget about bad Russia - we are alcoholics and prostitutes, go to West!

[Nairi]

You will be now a part of the the west and the west will defend you from all threats and make your salaries up to 3000 euro:D:D:D Forget about bad Russia - we are alcoholics and prostitutes, go to West!

Russia and West equally persue their interests in our region and we have only ourselves to rely on. But your comments are very childish and bitter, if I have forgotten your friends' and your personal insults you can also let it go, it's high time...grow up :)

[beaver]

Russia and West equally persue their interests in our region and we have only us to rely on. But your comments are very childish and bitter, if I have forgotten your friend's and your personal insults you can also let it go, it's high time...grow up
Do you want just to talk? Think please about my person everything you want.

[Drawing-slim]

A perfect europe would be all ethnicities to live under one nation and seperate from each-other and just respect each-others cultures and languages and traditions, and each place to mind its own fucking business.
We have to stop race mixing and conquering within europe/each-other first, then Presevation of european continent will last forever.

All albanian lands be given back to us, starting from montenegro down to northern greece and half of macedonia, kosova is already done.

[Eva]

Armenian saying is much more correct...
Մենք ենք, մեր սարերը...

This part was great, Nairi :thumb001::D

[Eva]

Its not a policy, only my personal understanding of the situation. If Armenians are going to West it would be great for Russia - fuck off the Caucasus!

So for you Europe is something so alien and you call it west?? What about your Slavic brothers at least?
I said hundreds of times Armenia is now in the Caucasus because of certain political injustices not long ago in the past, but our identity was formed on the Armenian Highlands - the Indo-European homeland and we are the indigeneos population of that homeland, that is the ones that didn't migrate to Europe etc but remained here.

[Stars Down To Earth]

A perfect europe would be all ethnicities to live under one nation and seperate from each-other and just respect each-others cultures and languages and traditions, and each place to mind its own fucking business.


All albanian lands be given back to us, starting from montenegro down to northern greece and half of macedonia, kosova is already done.

Eh, what? How is that "respecting each other's cultures?"

I guess it makes sense in Albanian code language, but not to me.

[Siberyak]

As long as the EU is here then there will be no redrawing a map of Europe.

[beaver]

So for you Europe is something so alien and you call it west?? What about your Slavic brothers at least?
first, Kremin sold Belgrad
second, Bulgaria always fought against Russia for last 150 years (братушки, блин)
absolutely the same about all our Christian "brothers" - everyone will sell Russia for 100 dollars at every moment.
Once more, Russia doesnt have friends. Maybe only Russian Jews in Israel :)

[Eva]

first, Kremin bought Belgrad
second, Bulgaria always fought against Russia for last 150 years (братушки, блин)
absolutely the same about all our Christian "brothers" - everyone will sell Russia for 100 dollars at every moment.
Once more, Russia doesnt have friends. Maybe only Russian Jews in Israel :)

Ah, please, going by your psychology if you were in the place of Armenians, you wouldn't be able to survive even a day...

[beaver]

Ah, please, going by your psychology if you were in the place of Armenians, you wouldn't be able to survive even a day...
Do you know something about my psychology? I survived many seasons on the West Caucasus walking either with 1-2 partners or alone :) I'm still alive

[Drawing-slim]

Eh, what? How is that "respecting each other's cultures?"

I guess it makes sense in Albanian code language, but not to me.What it means is that if you dont know anything about albanian people and our old old old hostiry and existence, you should never state such igonrance by saying kosova should go back to serbia.

[Joe McCarthy]

As long as the EU is here then there will be no redrawing a map of Europe.

Yeah, which is actually a pretty good argument for the EU. Previous to them the 'redrawing' came over the barrel of a gun at the hands of various less than savory characters. People may not like EU Brusselcrats, but it looks pretty good compared to goosesteppers or guys that can't stop calling you Comrade.

[The Ripper]

Previous to them the 'redrawing' came over the barrel of a gun at the hands of various less than savory characters.

?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Yalta_Conference_%28Churchill%2C_Roosevelt%2C_Stal in%29_%28B%26W%29.jpg

:D

[Joe McCarthy]

That might be funny if anyone other than fascists and communists thought there is moral equivalence between Churchill and FDR on one hand and Hitler and Stalin on the other.

[The Ripper]

That might be funny if anyone other than fascists and communists thought there is moral equivalence between Churchill and FDR on one hand and Hitler and Stalin on the other.

These are the guys who last re-drew the maps of Europe with the barrel of a gun.

[Joe McCarthy]

These are the guys who last re-drew the maps of Europe with the barrel of a gun.

Yeah, that was sort of the logical consequence of Stalin and Hitler redrawing the map in the first place by partitioning Poland. :lightbul:

[Jake Featherston]

...you should never state such igonrance by saying kosova should go back to serbia.

Very well. Kosovo should be returned to Serbia.

Happy?

[Tel Errant]

This deserves an own thread, it is infantile naive to think the FRG/Merkel would rule the ECB and EU's economy. Merkel has no more power than the political puppets of all other EU member states have, she can not decide anything alone, without Brussels.
This idea "we" control the ECB, just because it is headquartered in Frankfurt, is idiotic, and show you are not familiar with the basic facts here. The ECB ist an institution of the EU, the French central bank is no way less involved than the German or Dutch one. Before the ECB was set up, there was the discussion whether a keynesian or a fiscal conservative monetary system should be introduced, the decision was to take the latter option, in order to make the € a stable currency like the DM were, this position mostly was backed by the FRG, NL, A and LUX. Those countries with a traditional "weak" currency like the Latin ones accepted this decision, no one of them was forced to join the Eurozone. France easily could have made the decision to keep the Franc, like GB kept the Pound. You whine to the wrong address. Just leave the EU and make trade treaties à la EFTA.

Sarkozy made repeated attempts to increase French political influence on the ECB, which not only was rejected by the FRG, but all others who feared inflation too. Anyway, there are two other points that need to be addressed: Germany's sovereignty, and the strangulation of smaller EU members. Germany is the country which has the least sovereignty, giving away political and economical power and competences to the EU was a precondition for re-union. It would be better the ranters would make their economic homeworks instead of ranting about an inexistent German superpower. The FRG is an economical power, but a political dwarf.
Countries like Spain and Greece traditionally had a very inflationary policy, now that they are stuck with EU regularies, they deeper and deeper slide into economic troubles. No one having supported this is innocent, this goes to both addresses, the FRG and France, who were keen to have favourable conditions for their exports, and Spain, Greece etc. who thought they simply could continue with their policy without implementing any reforms.
I don't need to be well versed in economy to understand that a strong euro has destroyed the competitiveness of the southern economies. Inflation is the way to go to help the countries in trouble to solve their problems, but this notion cannot permeate german minds whose understanding is limited to what is profitable to their shortsighted economic egoism, that is a skyrocketing euro ensuring a captive eurozone market for german exports.
Keep on being deaf and you'll end up alone after having alienating all support in the eurozone, but this is basically what german history is all about.



Everyone respects us, albeit for irrational reasons
Indeed, Germany's economic strength is due to sheer numbers: 20 millions more people than France or Britain. You're not that much productive otherwise and the ex-GDR is an everlasting incurable economic burden. Your demographics are in bad shape. Be it internationally (Lybia, EU) or internally (end of the nuclear energy) your political decisions equally make no sense.




no one fears you, no matter how many nukes you have, that's the starting situation.
France is no asocial nation with psychopathic records, that's the starting situation.

[Drawing-slim]

?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Yalta_Conference_%28Churchill%2C_Roosevelt%2C_Stal in%29_%28B%26W%29.jpg

:D
Whats interesting this picture reminded me: due to Roosevelt's insomnia Albania's fate got fucked and choped up which stalin took adventage of, since roosevelt insisted that albania as a whole including kosovo be part of the west. Since we have nothing in common with slavics it makes sense.

Anyway i saw this show about insomia if im not mistaking, interesting.

[beaver]

That might be funny if anyone other than fascists and communists thought there is moral equivalence between Churchill and FDR on one hand and Hitler and Stalin on the other.
Americans worked about plans of nuclear bombing the main Soviet cities just after WW2.
Only the Soviet Bomb stopped them. What difference? The same bandits. Soviets couldnt threaten to the West after the great fighting with Germans.

Also, the Ardennes catastrophe of US-British troops. They very asked Soviets to accelerate events, Soviets agreed (non-prepared actions against Germans = additional losses for Russians). Germans otherwhise could really fuck off US-British back to the sea. And plans of nuclear bombing Russia after all this? What are you talking about? What moral authority?

[Drawing-slim]

Very well. Kosovo should be returned to Serbia.

Happy?Your insignificance canot make me happy nor sad in this matter, i assure you. but your ignorance combined with your twisted little narow mind based on, since think you're being loyal to your peronal version of jesus, makes me wanna pitty your pathetic existence. but even there i fail to do so. Because im not christ, just incase u get confused, since your types hear alot voices:D

Fyi, kosovo is pronounced kosova, amongst us albanians and in albanian language.

[Leliana]

Germany is number one problem in Europe since... well since the biginning. The German question should be dealt the German way.
Oh that's the French superiority complex against Germany we all love so much. :rolleyes2: But thinkers and thinking of your kind was successfully dealt with in 1813, 1871 and 1940. :D You can get a bloody nose again if you want, anytime! Napoleanic thinking is the root of much misery and it's still strong in France.

I don't need to be well versed in economy to understand that a strong euro has destroyed the competitiveness of the southern economies. Inflation is the way to go to help the countries in trouble to solve their problems...
I don't need to read more, only idiots would accept inflation to increase a situation. There is all reason to fight against the menace of inflation and for monetary stability and if you think Germany would be so dumb to accept inflation and fall in value of our money, pensions and financial investments then you're just a poor thinker, a very poor one. If some countries can't handle the strong Euro and our way of successfull monetary thinking then they should do us and themselves a favor and leave the Euro!



France is no asocial nation with psychopathic records, that's the starting situation.

Your country has a record for undersized men with psychopathic megalomania. :P And people who eat frogs and snails are not to be trusted either.

http://www.planet-wissen.de/politik_geschichte/persoenlichkeiten/napoleon/img/intro_napoleon_feld_g.jpg

http://www.sott.net/image/image/9246/escabot_sarko.jpg

Your demographic birth numbers are higher because of the countless Mahgrebians and Africans in your messed up cities like Marseille or Paris. Banlieu warfare! That's something to be proud of...lol! :P

[Pallantides]

Napoleon was a Corsican of Italian(Lombard ancestry) and he was fairly average in height for his time, it's just English propaganda that liked to portray him as a midget. :)

[Aptrgangr]

I don't need to be well versed in economy to understand that a strong euro has destroyed the competitiveness of the southern economies.
Then, why did these countries join the Eurozone, if it was clear from the beginning on? No one forced them.


Inflation is the way to go to help the countries in trouble to solve their problems, but this notion cannot permeate german minds whose understanding is limited to what is profitable to their shortsighted economic egoism, that is a skyrocketing euro ensuring a captive eurozone market for german exports.
Like I said, simply leave EU and make trade treaties leaned on EEC/EFTA regulations. And inflation destroys much, as it destroys private properties.
And no one else than French decision makers are to be blamed for their deindustrialization policy, I suggest you start to care about your own problems.
http://www.zimbio.com/Sociology/articles/12/Deindustrialization+Act+II


Keep on being deaf and you'll end up alone after having alienating all support in the eurozone,
Which would be such a pity :D
The sooner the Eurozone and the mostrous EU as such crash, the better.


but this is basically what german history is all about.
I think you should get familiar with the basics of history in general.


Indeed, Germany's economic strength is due to sheer numbers: 20 millions more people than France or Britain.
Nonsense, because the old FRG was Europe's No 1 economy already, German export success relies on quality, not quantity. We can demand highes prices because customers are ready to pay them. And, we had no deindustrialization policy like F and GB had.


You're not that much productive otherwise and the ex-GDR is an everlasting incurable economic burden.
Now you shoot in your own knee again as we still maintained a high industrial output despite the burden of financing a totally corrupt former GDR. Anyway, the new federal states recover slowly but steadily.


Your demographics are in bad shape.
So are the French and all other European ones.


Be it internationally (Lybia, EU) or internally (end of the nuclear energy) your political decisions equally make no sense.
So bombing Libya makes sense? I resent imperialism and aggressive neo-colonialism, I would prefer a neutral Germany. And the nuclear energy decision was made because of two reasons: there is no concept how to deal with radioactive waste, and the gas industry is happy to make higher profits.


France is no asocial nation with psychopathic records, that's the starting situation.
Your subjectivism does not help you out, the permanent French attacks and betrayals led to a feeling of helplessness and hate in the German consciousness, if GB had not maintained the policy of a balance of powers, our head of state would not be named Wulff or something like that, but either Louis XXV or Napoleon VII...Anyway conciliation already happened on all levels, and that is good.

[Joe McCarthy]

Americans worked about plans of nuclear bombing the main Soviet cities just after WW2.
Only the Soviet Bomb stopped them. What difference? The same bandits. Soviets couldnt threaten to the West after the great fighting with Germans.

Also, the Ardennes catastrophe of US-British troops. They very asked Soviets to accelerate events, Soviets agreed (non-prepared actions against Germans = additional losses for Russians). Germans otherwhise could really fuck off US-British back to the sea. And plans of nuclear bombing Russia after all this? What are you talking about? What moral authority?

Erm, so are we to conclude that you are seriously contending that FDR and Churchill were no better than Hitler and Stalin? :coffee: Any less than ideal moves by the Western Allies were put into motion by those two psychopaths carving up Poland like vultures.

[GeistFaust]

If I were so graced with the opportunity to redraw the boundaries of the European countries I would do the following. I would give to Germany Flanders and the Netherlands, Austria, Tyrol, The German part of Switzerland, Bas-Rhin and Alasce Lorraine, parts of Slovenia, Pomerania, Silesia, Posen, and a few other smaller sections of Poland, Koenigsberg and the Czech Republic.


This would all be reminscient of the Holy Roman Empire. I would give Independence to Catalan in return Spain would get Malta. I would give Itria and Dalmatia to Italy. Bosnia to Serbia and Montenegro to Albania. Macedonia would go to Greece as well as the whole island of Crete. I would consolidate Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus that is what is left of it to a single union.

The Baltic States would be consolidated into a single union that is watched over by Germany primarily. The Scandinavian countries Denmark, Sweden, and Norway would be consolidated into a single union. Croatia and Slovakia would take over parts and sections of each others land as well as that of Poland and Ukraine.

Romania and Hungary would also take parts of each others lands and Romania would get Moldova. The countries which would remain independent would be Spain, Portugal, parts of France, Finland, England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Romania, Hungary. By Independence I mean without the consolidation of their land into unions with other countries.

Germany will be the center of all European affairs whether they be cultural, intellectual, political, militaristic, or industrial wise. Europe will use a powerful Germany to keep Russia at bay and other barbaric Eastern hordes. Great-Britain will act as a sidekick for Germany to make sure the countries to the South and East of it namely France, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden do not act up.

[Jarl]

Europe will use a powerful Germany to keep Russia at bay and other barbaric Eastern hordes.

At bay??? LOLOLOL :D We own this place already, comrade!

[GeistFaust]

At bay??? LOLOLOL :D We own this place already, comrade!

Yes, I would drive Russian influence out of the Baltic States and reinforce a German rule. The ways and culture of the Baltic peoples will be maintained in accordance with their unique instinct. It will be watched over by the Cultural, Intellectual, and Social whims of the German Empire.

[Jarl]

and reinforce a German rule.

Oh Myyy Goooood!!! ...again?!


It will be watched over by the Cultural, Intellectual, and Social whims of the German Empire.

"Empire" what?! Give me a fokking break, will you? ;)

[Geminus]

If I were so graced with the opportunity to redraw the boundaries of the European countries I would do the following. I would give to Germany Flanders and the Netherlands, Austria, Tyrol, The German part of Switzerland, Bas-Rhin and Alasce Lorraine, parts of Slovenia, Pomerania, Silesia, Posen, and a few other smaller sections of Poland, Koenigsberg and the Czech Republic.

...

The Baltic States would be consolidated into a single union that is watched over by Germany primarily.

...

Germany will be the center of all European affairs whether they be cultural, intellectual, political, militaristic, or industrial wise. Europe will use a powerful Germany to keep Russia at bay and other barbaric Eastern hordes.

...


This would basically be the results of a German victory in WW 1. I think it would be preferable to the current situation in many ways (surely not perfect, though). Of course the ones opposing German hegemony in Europe won't like this idea very much... :)

[Raikaswinþs]

I'm afraid the question doesn't particularly interest me. The thing that comes to mind when discussing European border changes is the bad ol' days of European warfare.

then...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CzM-EYcaABM/SiEYhZtXFgI/AAAAAAAAAvU/GW1EKDwjhTg/s400/Por_que_no_te_callas.jpg

[Gaztelu]

I would give to Germany Flanders and the Netherlands, Austria, Tyrol, The German part of Switzerland, Bas-Rhin and Alasce Lorraine, parts of Slovenia, Pomerania, Silesia, Posen, and a few other smaller sections of Poland, Koenigsberg and the Czech Republic.


It really pisses me off that you (and other people) want to see Switzerland broken up, considering that it is perhaps the best state in Europe.

[Raikaswinþs]

Then, why did these countries join the Eurozone, if it was clear from the beginning on? No one forced them.



I don't know how it was in your country. But in mine, nobody was asked for their opinion.No such a thing as a survey, let alone a referendum. Good 'auld "Por mis cojones" way of the Spanish "todo para el pueblo, pero sin el pueblo" rulling class. Which were by then as are now, puppets of the big markets. Just as people in your country are.

We were just throwed in, even though most people didn't like the idea and everybody feared it. La Peseta has been longed for as much time as it has been gone

They even needed massive campains to stop the social panick that was running ammock.

"No se preocupe senora, con el Euro, los precios NO VAN A SUBIR"

[Dilberth]

More countries in the British Isles:)

[Joe McCarthy]

It really pisses me off that you (and other people) want to see Switzerland broken up, considering that it is perhaps the best state in Europe.

Jerking off to Greater Germany has been a fine fetish ever since the Minister of Propaganda called Switzerland 'that shitty little state'. He also said Sweden 'has no right to exist' though so I'm surprised they're not being added.

I think a reading of Schiller's 'Wilhelm Tell' is badly needed here.

[GeistFaust]

It really pisses me off that you (and other people) want to see Switzerland broken up, considering that it is perhaps the best state in Europe.


That is fine the French and Italians can keep their sections but the Volk must be gathered into a single circle and not spread out outside of the boundaries of Germany.

[Joe McCarthy]

That is fine the French and Italians can keep their sections but the Volk must be gathered into a single circle and not spread out outside of the boundaries of Germany.

The last time we had this talk of gathering the Volk Henry Guisan mobilized the Swiss militia and hundreds of thousands of Swiss citizens were on ready to meet the Wehrmacht in house-to-house fighting.

[GeistFaust]

The last time we had this talk of gathering the Volk Henry Guisan mobilized the Swiss militia and hundreds of thousands of Swiss citizens were on ready to meet the Wehrmacht in house-to-house fighting.

That is fine but the Swiss Germans should be ignorant of their belonging to a large community, namely the German state. It would only be appropriate to align themselves to this state in order to affirm their race-conscious. Switzerland is a multi-culltural conglammeration which runs contrary to affirming the purity and unity of the Volkish mentality. The Swiss-Germans should be included in accordance and for the well-being of the state of Germany and its people.

[Artavazt]

.I would choose West even for Russia. All people deserve to live in a free,democratic country where everyone's rights are respected. For now legasy of Soviets is still visible in both our countries. Sometimes it is not bad to adopt better model of life which happened to be Western....

Are you degenerate Rabi ?

[Brigantia]

That is fine but the Swiss Germans should be ignorant of their belonging to a large community, namely the German state. It would only be appropriate to align themselves to this state in order to affirm their race-conscious. Switzerland is a multi-culltural conglammeration which runs contrary to affirming the purity and unity of the Volkish mentality. The Swiss-Germans should be included in accordance and for the well-being of the state of Germany and its people.



Those Swiss "Germans" have been distinguishing themselves from Germany for a long time, politically since the fourteenth century. Switzerland runs counter to the Prussian/German state, precisely why Swiss, whether German, French, or Romansch speaking have been distancing themselves from the Holy Roman Empire/Germany for a long time. Wouldn't this be a problem?

It seems like Swiss "Germans" feel a stronger bond with other Swiss than with Bavarians or Prussians. My point being, how strong is this Volkish mentality amongst the Swiss, in regards to Germany? Not just in our era, but traditionally amonst the Swiss?

As a complete side note, I was intrigued at some suggestions, verbally and through the maps, especially the idea of reverting Spain back to her division during the Reconquest, yet a united Italy and a Third Reich Germany:confused:

[GeistFaust]

Those Swiss "Germans" have been distinguishing themselves from Germany for a long time, politically since the fourteenth century. Switzerland runs counter to the Prussian/German state, precisely why Swiss, whether German, French, or Romansch speaking have been distancing themselves from the Holy Roman Empire/Germany for a long time. Wouldn't this be a problem?

It seems like Swiss "Germans" feel a stronger bond with other Swiss than with Bavarians or Prussians. My point being, how strong is this Volkish mentality amongst the Swiss, in regards to Germany? Not just in our era, but traditionally amonst the Swiss?

As a complete side note, I was intrigued at some suggestions, verbally and through the maps, especially the idea of reverting Spain back to her division during the Reconquest, yet a united Italy and a Third Reich Germany:confused:



I am a believer that consolidating European states is a better way of attempting to secure peace in Europe. The Swiss Germans are not the only variant of German. The German state has a wide variety of diversity of cultural identities in accordance with common political unity. The concept of a people should take into account racial, linguistic, and political identity.


The racial and linguistic orientation of a people might slightly differ but what is important is the unification of these minor differences under a single political figurehead. The Swiss Germans should accept a return to the German Volk by joining the political enterprise of the German state and uniting them to it. Its an imperative duty for them in alignment with their racial and linguistic affiliations.


I think that politically this is merely a hypothetical fantasy we are all conjuring up here. A unity is a logical and divine necessity which the boundless bounds of the natural law calls upon the German-Swiss people. A lot of whom fled into the Palantine during the 17th and 18th century. This is not like trying to unite say Scotland with Ireland and Wales on the basis that they are Celtic. This has to do with something that is more specific and more detailed in terms of logical categorization and application.

[Osweo]

States are a human adaptive mechanism, evolved in much the same way as other memes. Stateless humanity has obviously been shunted aside by the rest. As with genes, you need variation in the first place, for selection to act upon. Why not, therefore, promote the flirtation with several alternative state systems on the part of one ethnos, in order that all eggs not be in one basket, and to allow for the maximum chance to work out the best possible solutions?

[Joe McCarthy]

States are a human adaptive mechanism, evolved in much the same way as other memes. Stateless humanity has obviously been shunted aside by the rest. As with genes, you need variation in the first place, for selection to act upon. Why not, therefore, promote the flirtation with several alternative state systems on the part of one ethnos, in order that all eggs not be in one basket, and to allow for the maximum chance to work out the best possible solutions?

That's pretty much what Europe had from the Peloponnesian War to 1945. The result was almost endless conflict, which is to be expected between mutually antagonistic political systems.

[GeistFaust]

States are a human adaptive mechanism, evolved in much the same way as other memes. Stateless humanity has obviously been shunted aside by the rest. As with genes, you need variation in the first place, for selection to act upon. Why not, therefore, promote the flirtation with several alternative state systems on the part of one ethnos, in order that all eggs not be in one basket, and to allow for the maximum chance to work out the best possible solutions?



This is an interesting solution and perhaps consolidating states into bigger states could lead lead to a massive clustering effect. In a sense if we spread things out and allow for more flexibility and variation this could cause problems as well. The problem is that it could their could be more conflicts between these different entities which share a common background.


This in large part gave rise to monarchies and large states because they knew the counts and princes in other regions would constantly rebel until someone assumed absolute power. The framework in today's socio-political environment is a bit different of course and checked out between multiple powerful factions within the context of the state.


That is we have been able to maintain a central unity by de-centralizing the power around multiple different sectors of this central union which all play a part in the unity of the state. Given the model of politicals that is applied by governments these days is why the states have taken the shape they do. The nature and shape of the boundaries of a state depend on the specific socio-political models which a people desire to adhere to.


Also there are better socio-political models for different formations and kinds of state. I think that in a Europe where states are consolidated into bigger states even more de-centralized power structure. The more variation in a single state the more need there is for a variation of factions in the government to counter-balance any supposed inequalities.


In a smaller state there is always a risk of despotism and a totalitarian tyranny if that smaller state is not working to a large union which is considers to be in a collective contract with. Aside I think there is always a problem of running into extremes which can only be dealt with the human capacity to invent and re-design socio-political models.


This is all done to deal with the change in socio-political environment which the re-formation of boundaries causes. It also applies that we need to constantly invent and re-design socio-political models and thoughts regardless if there is any change to the essential structure or degree of variation.


Variation allows for adapability as you said through selective processes and our adapability should become as variant and versatile as possible. This is all in terms of how we apply selective "potentials" to the socio-political reality of our environment.

[GeistFaust]

That's pretty much what Europe had from the Peloponnesian War to 1945. The result was endless conflict, which is to be expected between mutually antagonistic political systems.


There are always going to be conflicting entities involved in every state to some degree or another regardless of the reformation of its boundaries. It is the conflict which brings about the variation. That variation is a logical necessary which does not necessarily bring about the order to the state.

This can only be brought about by trying to compromise the socio-political models of the different factions to reach a quasi-central ground in respects to some basic and fundamental functions of the state.

This is where the adaptability of different variations of political factions comes into play and allow for the possibility of the union of a state between an inequal representation of different political factions.

[beaver]

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaver View Post

Americans worked about plans of nuclear bombing the main Soviet cities just after WW2.
Only the Soviet Bomb stopped them. What difference? The same bandits. Soviets couldnt threaten to the West after the great fighting with Germans.

Also, the Ardennes catastrophe of US-British troops. They very asked Soviets to accelerate events, Soviets agreed (non-prepared actions against Germans = additional losses for Russians). Germans otherwhise could really fuck off US-British back to the sea. And plans of nuclear bombing Russia after all this? What are you talking about? What moral authority?


Erm, so are we to conclude that you are seriously contending that FDR and Churchill were no better than Hitler and Stalin? Any less than ideal moves by the Western Allies were put into motion by those two psychopaths carving up Poland like vultures.

Asolutely. Finally, all of them were bandits. I, personally, love :) Churchill because he was smartest (it doesnt matter that he hated Russia, I'm about other things). Americans would have nuced Russia if they had such possibility, I have no doubts. And not because some threats from Russia. Live in your idealistic world if this makes you happier.

[Raskolnikov]

Jerking off to Greater Germany has been a fine fetish ever since the Minister of Propaganda called Switzerland 'that shitty little state'. He also said Sweden 'has no right to exist' though so I'm surprised they're not being added.
That's the only time there was a Minister of Propaganda in power to say something like that, but the modern logic behind that extends backwards at least as far to the romantic era and forwards in a different way to the European Union.

[Hevneren]

"Reversion" was admittedly a poor choice of words, but Greenland is part of North America, not Europe, and so should be an independent republic, or a territory of either the USA, or Canada. I don't really approve of things like French Guyana, Martinique, or Miquelon either, but those are either loaded with darkies, or tiny, nearly uninhabited islands of almost no consequence. But Danish sovereignty over such a major North American landmass as Greenland offends my Monrovian sensibilities. During the early 1940s, there was some vague talk of a U.S. annexation of Sicily. That, too, would have been a travesty. We have our side of the Atlantic, and you guys have yours.

Greenland was Norwegian territory for 600 years, and Denmark has kept Greenland for another 600 years. The United States have no territorial claims to Greenland.

You fool yourself by thinking you have a claim to any part of the Americas. The lands you currently occupy are Native American, and were it not for Europeans - like Norwegian explorer Leiv Eiriksson or the Jamestown settlers - you wouldn't be there in the first place.

[Joe McCarthy]

That's the only time there was a Minister of Propaganda in power to say something like that, but the modern logic behind that extends backwards at least as far to the romantic era and forwards in a different way to the European Union.

Even Herder's conception of German nationhood wasn't as extensive as the Nazis' and didn't include Switzerland. Anyone familiar with Swiss national history would realize they'd never willingly sacrifice their independence, least of all to German authoritarians.

[Gaztelu]

That is fine the French and Italians can keep their sections but the Volk must be gathered into a single circle and not spread out outside of the boundaries of Germany.

Look, I am all for Germany returning to its 1914 borders (with the exception of Schleswig-Holstein returning to Denmark).

However, re-shaping Europe into an entity dominated by Germany is ridiculous.

[Hevneren]

Seeing their geo-political circumstances (ex. Denmark, Norway and Sweden having a monarchy) and also their genetic closeness I choose such such union. It's more like autonomous countries, having their own culture and own government but with a linked economy, but unlike the EU any Scandinavian Union country is free to choose to break from the Union by vote of its people, they're also less dependent on the union.

It would be artificial, like the Kalmar Union. Our nations were separate at the beginning, it was only through politics that we had a union in the first place.

I'm against any kind of centralisation, because no union is ever truly pro-nationalist and no union is ever balanced and equal. Unions only lead to greater inefficiency, less local power and less cultural, linguistic and ethnic independence and nationalism. Norway got screwed over in its unions with Denmark and Sweden, and we don't want another one.