Is Belarusian a language?

[Zohor]

As I started to dilute other thead way too much why not to make another thread without replies?:rolleyes:

There are some memebers calling whole this language a dialect. I disagree and I think it's full language, even tho it's very close to Russian and is spoken by margin of people


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFxYkhZW2qU

This video in here proves other way, as this "dialect" has it's own dialect which could be some kind of spectrum between south Russians(linguistically south), Ukrainians, Poles and Balts.

The thing is this video is only in Belarusian, so I will try to note some details from what I will understand under OP post if there will be any people interested.

Basically the video claim you can call out dialects of North-East and of South-West. The video also calls the transitional type in the central part between the two mentioned, and the south-western tip of Belarus aka West Polesia as it is more similar to Ukrainian

[Ugo]

It is a dialect of the Russian language. Artificially added Polish words. The structure of the Belarusian language is East Slavic.

[Alenka]

That doesn't really matter.
Regardless if one considers it a language or a dialect, it doesn't imply anything, either way.

For example, Basque is much more unique from Spanish than Belarusian is from Russian.
Yet the collective West doesn't deem it deserving for the Basques to get independance.

Hence, even if Belarusian is a language, it's doesn't mean Belarus deserves independence from Russia.
Belarus exists just on a map, so Russia might as well annex it, if you ask me. Nothing would really change anyways.

Except for the hypocritical West crying more of their crocodile tears, of course.
But actually this judgement would be totally irrelevant.

Because if they truly cared about sovereignity of the peoples, they would care in every case.
Not pick and choose just when it's convenient for their interests.

[Ugo]

Russian dialects still exist within the Russian people - like the Pomeranian dialect of the Russian language and several dead dialects that existed recently. Also, the Old Russian language of central Russia was identical to the "old Ukrainian" language and they both differed from the northern Russian dialect of Novgorod. It seems that there are several peoples of different origins living inside the Russian people. Then the question. Are Ukrainians and Belarusians separate peoples? Western Russians are 100% identical to Belarusians. Southern Russians are identical to Ukrainians. What is our difference? Only that there are northern Russians?

[The_Strategist]

If Bosnian is a language, Belarusian can be too

[KirillMazur]

It's hard to tell if it's a language or a dialect, but I understand about 35-40% of this verse. It seems to be quite pure Belarusian, and not the so-called “trasyanka”. I think that the border regions of Germany and the Netherlands understand each other better.

Мы чакалі Калядаў з маленства
І ніяк не маглі дачакацца
Тату трэба было на работу
Маці трэба было на працу

А Гагарын ляцеў на ракеце
Па-над нашым дваром ды садам
Мы глядзелі усьлед са зьдзіўленьнем
І міжволі чакалі Калядаў

Мы ўвосень падпальвалі лісьце
Мы ўзімку хварэлі на глянды
І прыклаўшы далоні да вуснаў
У цямрэчы чакалі Калядаў

Мы пісалі ў школе дыктоўкі
Нас вадзілі глядзець на парады
Прафсаюз выдаваў карамэлькі
Мы бралі і чакалі Калядаў

Нам даводзілі, хто мы і што мы
Нас вучылі выконваць загады
Нам казалі, ды мы ня чулі
Мы ўпотай чакалі Калядаў

Мы рабілі высновы хутка
Мы павольна сьпявалі баляды
Мы назлосьць валасы расьцілі
І ўпарта чакалі Калядаў

Што з таго, што ўсё гэта зьнікла
Быццам бурбалкі ад ліманаду
Засталіся сям'я ды дзеткі
Засталося чаканьне Калядаў

Засталіся сябры ды праца
А адзін, дык "вабшчэ" ў Канадзе
Мы на сьвяты дашлем паштоўку
Будзем разам чакаць Калядаў

Позна ў вечары посуд памыем
І пакінем, каб сохнуў на тацы
Мы чакаем Калядаў з маленства
І ня можам ніяк дачакацца.

[Ugo]

It's hard to tell if it's a language or a dialect, but I understand about 35-40% of this verse. It seems to be quite pure Belarusian, and not the so-called “trasyanka”. I think that the border regions of Germany and the Netherlands understand each other better.

Мы чакалі Калядаў з маленства
І ніяк не маглі дачакацца
Тату трэба было на работу
Маці трэба было на працу

А Гагарын ляцеў на ракеце
Па-над нашым дваром ды садам
Мы глядзелі усьлед са зьдзіўленьнем
І міжволі чакалі Калядаў

Мы ўвосень падпальвалі лісьце
Мы ўзімку хварэлі на глянды
І прыклаўшы далоні да вуснаў
У цямрэчы чакалі Калядаў

Мы пісалі ў школе дыктоўкі
Нас вадзілі глядзець на парады
Прафсаюз выдаваў карамэлькі
Мы бралі і чакалі Калядаў

Нам даводзілі, хто мы і што мы
Нас вучылі выконваць загады
Нам казалі, ды мы ня чулі
Мы ўпотай чакалі Калядаў

Мы рабілі высновы хутка
Мы павольна сьпявалі баляды
Мы назлосьць валасы расьцілі
І ўпарта чакалі Калядаў

Што з таго, што ўсё гэта зьнікла
Быццам бурбалкі ад ліманаду
Засталіся сям'я ды дзеткі
Засталося чаканьне Калядаў

Засталіся сябры ды праца
А адзін, дык "вабшчэ" ў Канадзе
Мы на сьвяты дашлем паштоўку
Будзем разам чакаць Калядаў

Позна ў вечары посуд памыем
І пакінем, каб сохнуў на тацы
Мы чакаем Калядаў з маленства
І ня можам ніяк дачакацца.I understand 50% of your Belarusian verse. But I don’t understand this Northern Russian dialect at all:




++++++++++++
Матёра вода
моря́ной гонима,
Мокря́шшой зад
мозгля́шша с има.
Вздынуть бы чёлн,
да наглохтилссе волн.

++++++++++++
Ледяшша листобой
Хра́млёт пого́дьё
торкнулссе в арешник,
в бакланец бо́дьёй.

++++++++++
Медвёть
ревёть,
скалиссе,
Могутно продиралиссе.
Робяты крицят -
Лешшой, лешшой
принесло-то ево!
Ка́ко мошник
С под ног пахнул хитраво́.

++++++++++++
Мороз осердилссе,
секёт, не берегёт.
Анде, больно!
Анде, што жгёт!
Так и воротилссе
на лесну кулигу,
со стыдом как с пирогом.

++++++++++++
Купом прода́тли,
знамо што до́рогли.
В дошшь по реке-то шли
с има торок, дак мо́рок лих.

++++++++++++
На ножьи катанцы у веси
в поте́мни-то шли кудесить.

++++++++++++
Пора́то хле́бот был ску́сной
да в печи забуксе́л
Анде ви́ньгаться што с гладу
пустоварны шти поел.

++++++++++++
У, ляды, ляды!
Ветр окольницу вышибил.
Ох!
Галызь выпружил в дом,
Дресьву да мох.

++++++++++++
Ты пошто тако наянова́то
на ей галиссе-то дурень гля́тый?
По рогам се дефку выбирам.
По амбарам наскребам, не по дворам.

++++++++++++
Лес нать на церькву рони́ть
жарово́й, да зако́млистой,
дак и дородно плесть нить,
дак песком с листа.

++++++++++++
За карбас хватайссе,
да Богу конайссе.
абы дроф не наломав
будь пора́то сумлевав
сугони́ смытьё суглаз
не укото́шав нараз.

++++++++++++
Роспета́ли нашу-то церькву,
да в Архангельско-то свезли.
Верети́я пуста, но паве́сть што
там искре́ить свет от земли.

https://www.chitalnya.ru/work/1109974/

[KirillMazur]

I understand 50% of your Belarusian verse. But I don’t understand this Northern Russian dialect at all
More or less same level of understanding as my Belarusian verse, imo. Well, should we separate the Pomors into a separate republic?;)
Or is the Arkhangelsk region enough?

[Zohor]

That doesn't really matter.
Regardless if one considers it a language or a dialect, it doesn't imply anything, either way.

For example, Basque is much more unique from Spanish than Belarusian is from Russian.
Yet the collective West doesn't deem it deserving for the Basques to get independance.

Hence, even if Belarusian is a language, it's doesn't mean Belarus deserves independence from Russia.
Belarus exists just on a map, so Russia might as well annex it, if you ask me. Nothing would really change anyways.

Except for the hypocritical West crying more of their crocodile tears, of course.
But actually this judgement would be totally irrelevant.

Because if they truly cared about sovereignity of the peoples, they would care in every case.
Not pick and choose just when it's convenient for their interests.

It matters to me because I wanted to verify my views regarding this language. Some member here called out Belarusian as dialect, I wanted to check if he can be right, I found a video, I shared it and that's all. My question didn't go further than that, it was that simple

[Zohor]

Side note: my thread has nothing to do with independence or not, there are many independent countries using same language(which are dialects like Spanish in south and central America) and cases of own laguages with no own state(Indonesia or India have hundreds of languages in use), of course I don't mind peiple discussing it here but I write it to know it not my intention to start that aspect discussed in this thread

[JiaTheResearcher]

Most languages originate from locally spoken dialects, uneducated violations of mainstream linguistic norms.
In case of "Belarussian" it's not even a language because most Belarussians refuse to speak it. Without forced learning of school textbooks it would be forgotten and no one wold feel sorry about it.

[fyodorov]

That doesn't really matter.
Regardless if one considers it a language or a dialect, it doesn't imply anything, either way.

For example, Basque is much more unique from Spanish than Belarusian is from Russian.
Yet the collective West doesn't deem it deserving for the Basques to get independance.

Hence, even if Belarusian is a language, it's doesn't mean Belarus deserves independence from Russia.
Belarus exists just on a map, so Russia might as well annex it, if you ask me. Nothing would really change anyways.

Except for the hypocritical West crying more of their crocodile tears, of course.
But actually this judgement would be totally irrelevant.

Because if they truly cared about sovereignity of the peoples, they would care in every case.
Not pick and choose just when it's convenient for their interests.

+1

[Your Old Comrade]

It's hard to tell if it's a language or a dialect, but I understand about 35-40% of this verse. It seems to be quite pure Belarusian, and not the so-called “trasyanka”. I think that the border regions of Germany and the Netherlands understand each other better.

Мы чакалі Калядаў з маленства
І ніяк не маглі дачакацца
Тату трэба было на работу
Маці трэба было на працу

А Гагарын ляцеў на ракеце
Па-над нашым дваром ды садам
Мы глядзелі усьлед са зьдзіўленьнем
І міжволі чакалі Калядаў

Мы ўвосень падпальвалі лісьце
Мы ўзімку хварэлі на глянды
І прыклаўшы далоні да вуснаў
У цямрэчы чакалі Калядаў

Мы пісалі ў школе дыктоўкі
Нас вадзілі глядзець на парады
Прафсаюз выдаваў карамэлькі
Мы бралі і чакалі Калядаў

Нам даводзілі, хто мы і што мы
Нас вучылі выконваць загады
Нам казалі, ды мы ня чулі
Мы ўпотай чакалі Калядаў

Мы рабілі высновы хутка
Мы павольна сьпявалі баляды
Мы назлосьць валасы расьцілі
І ўпарта чакалі Калядаў

Што з таго, што ўсё гэта зьнікла
Быццам бурбалкі ад ліманаду
Засталіся сям'я ды дзеткі
Засталося чаканьне Калядаў

Засталіся сябры ды праца
А адзін, дык "вабшчэ" ў Канадзе
Мы на сьвяты дашлем паштоўку
Будзем разам чакаць Калядаў

Позна ў вечары посуд памыем
І пакінем, каб сохнуў на тацы
Мы чакаем Калядаў з маленства
І ня можам ніяк дачакацца.

Correct analogy. Someone from Limburg province would understand someone from Cologne, Munster is understood in the Dutch Graafschap and Twenthe.

[Sorab12]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLsaewo3nls

[Scarface F]

Most languages originate from locally spoken dialects, uneducated violations of mainstream linguistic norms.
In case of "Belarussian" it's not even a language because most Belarussians refuse to speak it. Without forced learning of school textbooks it would be forgotten and no one wold feel sorry about it.

As far as I heard it was Russian that was forced via education system, not Belarusian. I highly doubt Soviet Union promoted Belarusian language in schools :laugh:

[Your Old Comrade]

Most languages originate from locally spoken dialects, uneducated violations of mainstream linguistic norms.
In case of "Belarussian" it's not even a language because most Belarussians refuse to speak it. Without forced learning of school textbooks it would be forgotten and no one wold feel sorry about it.

In Dutch we'd say "he has heard the toiling of the bell, but he doesn't know where the clapper is". That expression would apply to you. There is not a single country that tries enforce the use of what you call uneducated violations of mainstream linguistic norms (in other words: the real language of the people instead of the metropolitan standard of the economic, cultural and political elite), but every country has attempted to stamp it out in order to enforce the will of the elite. My country definitely did/ does that and Russia was/is no better.

[JiaTheResearcher]

As far as I heard it was Russian that was forced via education system, not Belarusian. I highly doubt Soviet Union promoted Belarusian language in schools :laugh:

Actually Soviet Union promoted learning Ukrainian and Belarussian in national republics. As well as studying local languages in national districts of Russian Federative Soviet Republic.
USSR was more poly-linguistic than you used to think.

[MCMXCV]

Belorussian belongs to the same subgroup of East Slavic languages as Ukrainian and Rusyn. The other East Slavic subgroup is represented by Russian alone.

The western edge of the East Slavic world has been contested between various empires through history, which resulted in different influences on the language that has one common origin. However, this is a normal process and is how many — if not most — languages formed. Calling something a language rather than a dialect and vice versâ has become a political matter, as it implies legitimacy in ruling over a certain area and its people.

The most important thing is that the local populace can speak their language variety freely and that it isn’t deliberately endangered by linguistic policies. The official/state language shouldn’t replace it, but in today’s globalised world with mass media, this is near to impossible.

[Varda]

This is what i heard about Belarusian language from Serbian scholar dr Zoran Milošević whose narrow specialty is action of the Papacy towards Orthodoxy since 16th century. It is based on speech of some village near border with Lithuania or Latvia (i forgot exactly). Creators of standard Belarusian language took a speech of that village as a basis for standard to be as different as possible from Russian language. Most of Belarusians speak Russian in everyday communication, and even of those people who use artificial Belarusian language than language is not native. Except creating a separate language from Russian goal of Jesuits was to return Belarusian people on Greek-Catholicism. According to dr Milošević during the Polish rule ancestors of Belarusians converted to Greek-Catholicism, but in the 18th century when Russians liberated own soil White Russia returned locals to Orthodoxy. Milošević say attempt of creation of the anti-Russian Belarusian nation failed, unlike in Ukraine where it was successfully created anti-Russian nation from Little Russians.

[Nurzat]

Most languages originate from locally spoken dialects, uneducated violations of mainstream linguistic norms.

you cannot call it uneducated as educated actually means standardized and imposing one artificial standard, which sucks. power to all (regional) languages!

even Ukrainian is a standard that is killing the local languages, like Rusyn and Hutsul in the Carpathians, for example.

Romanian is killing Moldovan, which is a contact language between Romanian and pre-Vlach (Slavic) inhabitants of Moldova.

so Belarusian has every right to express itself in the area it's spoken, in its many forms.

one population can at any moment decide to switch language and go back to their local speech, bring back old forgotten words etc, like Croats did to differentiate from Serbs for example. hope Moldovans will do that to differentiate from Romanians etc.

language standardization is authoritarian. standard is useless, only mutual intelligibility above a certain degree is important for interpersonal communication, the rest must be allowed as local, regional and even personal variance! each person should be free to speak and write as they please

[JiaTheResearcher]

language standardization is authoritarian. standard is useless, only mutual intelligibility above a certain degree is important for interpersonal communication, the rest must be allowed as local, regional and even personal variance! each person should be free to speak and write as they please

There in no golden standard in language regulating. Either you get a separate language in each village for the sake of chaotic democracy or you force people to unite economically and politically within the state with use of authoritarian methods. Personally I prefer to leave things as is. Nowadays there is no need in Belarussian language at all and if its active supporters even take power they repeat ukrainian scenario in Belarus.

[Nurzat]

There in no golden standard in language regulating. Either you get a separate language in each village for the sake of chaotic democracy or you force people to unite economically and politically within the state with use of authoritarian methods. Personally I prefer to leave things as is. Nowadays there is no need in Belarussian language at all and if its active supporters even take power they repeat ukrainian scenario in Belarus.

not true, separate language doesn't need to mean separate anything, lots of languages can share the same space

[Zohor]

There in no golden standard in language regulating. Either you get a separate language in each village for the sake of chaotic democracy or you force people to unite economically and politically within the state with use of authoritarian methods. Personally I prefer to leave things as is. Nowadays there is no need in Belarussian language at all and if its active supporters even take power they repeat ukrainian scenario in Belarus.

Usage of language doesn't make a language, have you heard about Toki Pona? No one uses it natively, it was artificial language yet still a language. Freaking Latin, if not Christianity and Bible in medieval times most likely it would die of and no one would give a shit about it.

I agree with you that there no golden standard rule because such issues are discussed by linguists and it was the point of the thread.

In this thread I simply wanted to discuss if Belarusian fills the criteria of being called a language. My first arguments was that Belarusian has some dialects within it, good start for discussion because it's rather easy to find a good contrargument for it. Unfortunatelly it turnt out differently becuase contrarguments are rather political than linguistic.

[Your Old Comrade]

In principle, we can argue that what the Russians are doing in Ukraine and Belarus is exactly the same thing as what the Danes and Swedes did in Norway, the Danes in Iceland and the Faroese, the English in Scotland, Wales and Ireland,the Dutch in much of the whole country (part. Brabant, Limburg and Frisia), the French-speaking elite of Belgium in both Wallonia, Brussels and Flanders, the Italians in Aosta, the Veneto, Sardinia, Sicily and South Tyrol, the Spanish in the Canary Islands, Catalonia and the Basque Country. the French in Corsica, Brittany, Alsace, Flanders, Artois, the Basque Country and the whole Occitan-speaking area. They call it nation-building, but let's call it for what it is: cultural genocide.

In all these countries, a metropolitan political elite, tried to force its power on a subjugated nation under the guise of nationalism. In every area that I mentioned, languages or dialects were either forced under ground, marked as an object of shame or completely replaced. Yes, the Bretons spoke Bretonic. In Wallonia, people spoke Walloon, in Brussels, Flemish had been the language since the day the city was founded. Flemish was discriminated against until well in the 20th century and this is why the Flemish Movement gladly joined the Dutch in a language union. In the Netherlands, dialects are still not equal before the law although now in Limburg, Limburgic is used in their local parliament and Frisian has finally equal status, but they had to literally fight for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJUmAmr2ixY&t=3s

And they only got it, because the government, with the end of the Indonesian War of Independence, only having been concluded two years prior, was afraid of facing a second possible movement for secession.

When I grew up, dialect was still literally shamed out of you in school. That's barely 30 years ago. My mum was stronger than I was: she refused to speak standard Dutch and stuck to Brabantine. I gave way, so unless I am with family, I speak, as it was called Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands (lit. Common Civilised Dutch), or today: standard Dutch.

So is Belarussian a language? Its speakers perceive it as one, and they perceive themselves as seperate and what or how they feel is none of Moscow's business. Nor was it the business of an arrogant elite in The Hague, Brussels or Paris, to legislate what dialect or language people were or are speaking.

[Your Old Comrade]

There in no golden standard in language regulating. Either you get a separate language in each village for the sake of chaotic democracy or you force people to unite economically and politically within the state with use of authoritarian methods. Personally I prefer to leave things as is. Nowadays there is no need in Belarussian language at all and if its active supporters even take power they repeat ukrainian scenario in Belarus.

Are Norway and Switzerland chaotic ? In both countries, the elites are not so different from the people, unlike here where they don't go to the same schools, speak the same language or dialect or even communicate with those they lord over. They barely know what is going in the province or, on the other side of town.

[Zohor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9uP7R0LqGI

Another video about Belarusian dialects, there are subtitles, auto-translate is good enough to get the context. Also, the lady seems to be so passionate about the topic

[Ugo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9uP7R0LqGI

Another video about Belarusian dialects, there are subtitles, auto-translate is good enough to get the context. Also, the lady seems to be so passionate about the topic

I understand every word, don't you?

[Zohor]

I understand every word, don't you?

Of course I do as well, it was information for non-Slavic speakers that they can translate subtitles to English and it will be decent

[Ugo]

Of course I do as well, it was information for non-Slavic speakers that they can translate subtitles to English and it will be decent
I don't understand Polish at all. It is strange that Poles understand Russian dialects.

[Zohor]

I don't understand Polish at all. It is strange that Poles understand Russian dialects.

It's because I had Russian as second foreign language at school(instead of German which is in most Polish schools) for 9 years