red hair in west georgia ( and caucasus)

[interes]

Redheads.
Small tribal groups or municipalities are indicated in brackets.

mostly red hair common in west georgia vani (imeretins have most red hair in caucasus afther Ahvakhs (Avars)


1) Ahvakhs (Avars) - 9.3% (Debets)
2) Imeretians (Vani) - 4% (Abdushelishvili)
3) Megrelians (Gali) - 3.1-4% (Abdushelishvili)
4) Kartlians (Gori) - 2.9% (Abdushelishvili)
5) Kakhetians (Sighnaghi) - 2.6% (Abdushelishvili)
6) Gunzibians (Avars) - 2.4% (Debets)
7) Megrelians (Martvili) - 2% (Javakhishvili)
8) Tindins (Avars) - 1.6 (Debets)
Abazins (Kislovodsk) - 1.6% (Abdushelishvili)
9) Mokhevtsy - 1.5% (Abdushelishvili)
Kabardians (Baksan) - 1.5% (Abdushelishvili)
10) Imeretians (Chiatauri) - 1.4% (Abdushelishvili)
Abkhazians (Ochamchira, assimilated Mingrelians) - 1.4% (Abdushelishvili)
Kabardians (Leskensky) - 1.4% (Abdushelishvili)
11) Avars (Kartintsy) -1.3% (Debets)
Ossetians (Irafian) -1.3% (Abdushelishvili)
Bzheduhi(Takhtamukaiskie) -1.3%(Abdushelishvili)
Abkhazians (Gudauta, Apsua) -1.3% (Abdushelishvili)
12) Javakhi (Akhalkalaki) - 1.2% (Abdushelishvili)
Mtiuly - 1.2% (Abdushelishvili)
13) Kartlians (Kaspi) -1.1% (Abdushelishvili)

mostly red hair common in west georgia vani (imeretins have most red hair in caucasus afther Ahvakhs (Avars)

https://scontent.ftbs3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/320630875_1286066115582427_6710318778857681154_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=afvC_uBkNEYAX_L5K1g&_nc_oc=AQmnVK3jJzqd7SjQB8JSkgTBRAt-GlGp33UZFCNmBqEJXP7J3Ps9BV5uRGvtGybPpVE&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs3-1.fna&oh=00_AfDF8SdklvkolfEkw600jM5LPpASL_MttZldYlI45pVU rA&oe=6554D83E

https://scontent.ftbs3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/379050793_6246311315478646_6661483236824110162_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=MfWCie-j3zMAX9_PAta&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs3-2.fna&oh=00_AfAfi5xa8QA88hNAf75CttEp00HBGopTdtop59qlZzm3 5Q&oe=6554E39F


west georgians ( imeretins from vani )
https://scontent.ftbs3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/18920785_269682643499166_4261936383836084637_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=7f8c78&_nc_ohc=oykxpAEpxmEAX-6DIx7&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs3-1.fna&oh=00_AfB_BbYupQScxtSB3LcW-7JsUpBeBFI69XGAvC3REfpnpQ&oe=6577F9A4



imeretins from vani

https://scontent.ftbs3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/15178264_167928317007933_9048646345568096434_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=7f8c78&_nc_ohc=WiVsmdqalncAX-T63pP&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs3-1.fna&oh=00_AfCdOd-624gMsPIvBPcnJPvty6gjBhkCHsa3L6WeE73i-A&oe=65780DBF



https://scontent.ftbs3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/320391851_1388339388577960_3845708496313295375_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=EqIWxA-y_F8AX_2ixd7&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs3-2.fna&oh=00_AfBeO0DbN7ehXD_UYR4pFt48SUxlAmwio5TKSHM4jL_2 zg&oe=65553BF4

[interes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDTEpf5I5H8
kids from vani west georgia

[interes]

https://scontent.ftbs3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/61162556_2385347221531369_3936924567208984576_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0bb214&_nc_ohc=CO_H2bLDQRkAX9AKzZw&_nc_ht=scontent.ftbs3-2.fna&oh=00_AfBffXgL_ie-U9ZAtcehwPCeQ8l7aZ4gt5EjFkjljGt00w&oe=6578679E

kids from vani west georgians

[Melkiirs]

What is Abdushelishvili’s figures for Georgia overall and larger regions? These are just municipalities.

[interes]

What is Abdushelishvili’s figure for Georgia overall and larger regions? These are just municipalities.

idk . Abdushelashvili studied most regions of georgia.
on this statistic imeretian from vani have most red hair in caucasus after avars.

[Melkiirs]

idk . Abdushelashvili studied most regions of georgia.
on this statistic imeretian from vani have most red hair in caucasus after avars.

I ask because there is significant variation within some regions. For example 1.4% reds in Chiatauri, Imeretia and 4% in Vani.

Abdushelashvili‘s work in not in the public domain, right?

[interes]

I ask because there is significant variation within some regions. For example 1.4% reds in Chiatauri, Imeretia and 4% in Vani.

Abdushelashvili‘s work in not in the public domain, right?

yes they ar all imeretins but they living different regions and have different pigmentations of hair , eys , skin .

signagi living most darkest part of georgians ( kakhetians ) but they have more red hair than many west georgians :)

[interes]

I ask because there is significant variation within some regions. For example 1.4% reds in Chiatauri, Imeretia and 4% in Vani.

Abdushelashvili‘s work in not in the public domain, right?

from abdushelishvili book, imeretins from vani are lightes Georgians and most lighter than other N.caucasians ( only not akhvakhs)
they have 23 light eyes have more redheads than other 4% and have more blond than most N.caucasians 4% very light blond . but have some darker types.

[Melkiirs]

from abdushelishvili book, imeretins from vani are lightes Georgians and most lighter than other N.caucasians ( only not akhvakhs)
they have 23 light eyes have more redheads than other 4% and have more blond than most N.caucasians 4% very light blond . but have some darker types.

What is very light blond here? Fischer #9-26? Lighter?

[interes]

What is very light blond here? Fischer #9-26? Lighter?

hm. abdushelashvili book only light russian, but ithink its more blonde than pantiuxov light russian .
pantiuxov light russian hair = light brown ithnk so
abdushelishvili light russian= light blond

[Melkiirs]

hm. abdushelashvili book only light russian, but ithink its more blonde than pantiuxov light russian .
pantiuxov light russian hair = light brown ithnk so
abdushelishvili light russian= light blond

Abdushelashvili would have used Fischer scale like other contemporary Soviet anthropologists. I saw his data for other Caucasus groups shared by Frowning Man. #9-26 is true blond/blondish versus just châtain and found only sporadically in the region except for ethnic Russians where it is a common feature.

Refer to the images here:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?170193-Are-Circassians-much-lighter-than-Georgians-or-bit-lighter-than-Georgians&p=7837346&viewfull=1#post7837346

I thought Kachetians from Kvareli were the lightest haired Georgians by Abdushelashvili‘s statistics? Wouldn’t they be the most blond as well or is that just total light hair?

[interes]

Abdushelashvili would have used Fischer scale like other contemporary Soviet anthropologists. I saw his data for other Caucasus groups shared by Frowning Man. #9-26 is true blond/blondish versus just châtain and found only sporadically in the region except for ethnic Russians where it is a common feature.

Refer to the images here:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?170193-Are-Circassians-much-lighter-than-Georgians-or-bit-lighter-than-Georgians&p=7837346&viewfull=1#post7837346

I thought Kachetians from Kvareli were the lightest haired Georgians by Abdushelashvili‘s statistics? Wouldn’t they be the most blond as well or is that just total light hair?

aah no kvareli kakhetians are most darkers 4.10 bal is darker than adjarians from batumi who have 3.09 than less bal = more blonde :) 3.09 >4.10 so kakhetians from kvareli are darkest

[Melkiirs]

aah no kvareli kakhetians are most darkers 4.10 bal is darker than adjarians from batumi who have 3.09 than less bal = more blonde :) 3.09 >4.10 so kakhetians from kvareli are darkest


So the darkest group in Georgia is only 77% dark haired (Fischer #4-5 + #27)? What percent dark hair did Abdushelashvili find for Mingrelians, Gurians, and Imeretians? 77% dark brown to jet black is comparable to Southern Europeans so I doubt West Georgians are much lighter. Did this old poster read Abdushelashvili correctly?:

And the lightest Georgian group (only 77% dark hair) are Kachetians from Kvareli.

[Kess]

What about Circassians? I believe they have the most frequency in red hair compared to other Caucasians.

[interes]

So the darkest group in Georgia is only 77% dark haired (Fischer #4-5 + #27)? What percent dark hair did Abdushelashvili find for Mingrelians, Gurians, and Imeretians? 77% dark brown to jet black is comparable to Southern Europeans so I doubt West Georgians are much lighter. Did this old poster read Abdushelashvili correctly?:

paintiukhov book : imeretins from kutaisi have ~ 15 % light hair( 14 light brown or dark blond ( light russian hair) and 1 % red heads ) ~ 60 brown hair 35 black hair

its most lightest part of georgians from pantiukhov book .


abdushelashvili book and ficher stats:


https://i.postimg.cc/y7SMVyg3/2023-11-14-22-52-25.png

https://i.postimg.cc/ZJ3QkY2r/2023-11-14-22-57-35.png

[WalkiriaTyr]

I guess its right. I got georgia caucaso meridional adn result, im not red hair, but have many in my family and my hair was light reddish brown.
I always love the color and today I dyed my hair red :)

[interes]

I guess its right. I got georgia caucaso meridional adn result, im not red hair, but have many in my family and my hair was light reddish brown.
I always love the color and today I dyed my hair red :)

idk what y mean

[WalkiriaTyr]

did i understand wrong? i understood that many Georgian caucaso meridional are red hair
is it ok?

[interes]

did i understand wrong? i understood that many Georgian caucaso meridional are red hair
is it ok?

ok i understand you :) you have red hair dna ? ganes? your jew? Georgian jews look like more east georgians kakhetians but are more reddish than east georgians

[WalkiriaTyr]

No, not jew. Yes, in my adn says i have a small percentage from georgia caucaso. I didt born with red hair, just light reddish brown, but always identify myself with reddish hair, have many family that were red hair or too blond almost red.
Always thought that may be this comes from england, that also shows in my adn, but may be its from georgian reading this post

[Melkiirs]

No, not jew. Yes, in my adn says i have a small percentage from georgia caucaso. I didt born with red hair, just light reddish brown, but always identify myself with reddish hair, have many family that were red hair or too blond almost red.
Always thought that may be this comes from england, that also shows in my adn, but may be its from georgian reading this post

Your South Caucasian trace admixture on FamilyTreeDNA is unlikely to be reflected in your phenotype. I’m not even aware there is a Georgian diaspora community in Argentina although there is an Armenian community:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Georgia

Trace admixture does not necessarily indicate actual ancestry.

[Kess]

Your South Caucasian trace admixture on FamilyTreeDNA.

It's not even trustable. My mother is from North Caucasus and I got South Caucasus admixture on FTDNA.

[Melkiirs]

paintiukhov book : imeretins from kutaisi have ~ 15 % light hair( 14 light brown or dark blond ( light russian hair) and 1 % red heads ) ~ 60 brown hair 35 black hair

its most lightest part of georgians from pantiukhov book .


abdushelashvili book and ficher stats:


https://i.postimg.cc/y7SMVyg3/2023-11-14-22-52-25.png

https://i.postimg.cc/ZJ3QkY2r/2023-11-14-22-57-35.png

Kvareli being found least dark haired by Abdushelashvili could be explained in part due to chance with relatively limited sample size. West Georgian groups are still lighter haired on a broader regional level.

Georgia overall is only about 0.4% (perhaps closer to 0.5% if you account for population distribution) Fischer #1-3 based on that data which is similar to typical Southern Europeans and even Russians (Russian schoolchildren in Kazan were found 0.5% Fischer #1-3: https://books.google.com/books?id=t_5WAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA286&dq=%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B+%D1%80%D1% 83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8 0%D0%B5%D0%B8+%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B 2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8B+%220,5%25%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisqeLwpv-DAxV_EFkFHcKfDJ0Q6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%20%D1%80%D1 %83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%B5%D0%B2%D 1%80%D0%B5%D0%B8%20%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5% 20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8B%20%220%2C5% 25%22&f=false). With West Georgian regional groups it can reach 1-2% higher than typical for Caucasian populations and close to some Central Europeans.

[Melkiirs]

What about Circassians? I believe they have the most frequency in red hair compared to other Caucasians.

Circassians are about 0.5% Fischer #1-3 based on the 884 subjects observed by Abdushelashvili similar to Georgians overall (0.4%). West Georgian regional groups may reach 1% with Pantukhof but not Abdushelashvili which might be explained by the variations in localities sampled. I don’t have access to the complete data for G.F. Debets in Dagestan, but M. S. Akimova and M. A. Bulatoval found no cases of Fischer #1-3 among 419 Avar adult males. Thus rufosity is likely elevated in only some Avar local groups like the Ahvakhs observed by Debets. I‘m sure there is also variation among Circassian local groups with Abdushelashvili not studying all groups in detail.

If Circassians and Georgians at large are representative Caucasian peoples overall might perhaps be similar to ethnic Russians in rufosity despite being significantly darker haired. A sample of 595 7-8 year old ethnic Russian schoolchildren in Kazan found 0.5% Fischer #1-3 (https://books.google.com/books?id=t_5WAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA286&dq=%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B+%D1%80%D1% 83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8 0%D0%B5%D0%B8+%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B 2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8B+%220,5%25%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisqeLwpv-DAxV_EFkFHcKfDJ0Q6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8B%20%D1%80%D1 %83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%B5%D0%B2%D 1%80%D0%B5%D0%B8%20%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5% 20%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8B%20%220%2C5% 25%22&f=false).

[NSXD60]

Didn't Svetlana Alliluyeva Stalin, Joseph Stalin's daughter, have red hair, or was it dyed?

[interes]

What about Circassians? I believe they have the most frequency in red hair compared to other Caucasians.
Karachays abkhazians and circassians are lighter than all caucasian population other population