How Scandinavian is Scotland?

[Tarja]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16050269


The Scottish government is exploring closer links with Nordic nations in the event of independence, reports have suggested. But just how similar is Scotland to its northern neighbours?

They don't make bridies in Bergen or Tunnock's Tea Cakes in Torsby.

Nor is Hakkebøf half as popular in Hamilton or Helensburgh as it is in Hvidovre.

But the North Sea which separates Scotland from Scandinavia could become slightly less of a divide if political leaders in Edinburgh have their way.

According to reports, strategists within the Scottish National Party (SNP) government have drawn up plans to shift the country's focus away from the UK and towards the Nordic countries if a referendum on independence is passed.

It's a plan which might appeal to those who support the SNP's drive for a sovereign Scotland, and might be expected to attract opposition from supporters of the union.

But regardless of contemporary politics, looking north reveals much about a little-discussed aspect of how the national character was forged.

The union with the rest of the UK may be more widely discussed in a political context, and Scotland's Gaelic and Celtic heritage might be widely celebrated. But the long history of Viking and Norse settlement in Scotland has left an indelible mark.

Scots words like bairn (child), midden (dump), muckle (large) and even kilt (from the verb kjalta, meaning "to fold") are derived from Old Norse. Places like Dingwall, Wick, Lerwick and Tinwald can all trace their etymology back to the same source.

This heritage is most visible during the Up Helly Aa fire festivals in Shetland, which culminate in the burning of a replica Viking galley.

But the cultural analogies persist in modern times, and not just in terms of Scottish shoppers visiting chains like H&M or Ikea.

Recent years have seen an upsurge in international interest in gloomy, gritty, Scandinavian crime fiction such as the Wallander series, Stieg Larsson's Millennium trilogy or the Danish TV series The Killing. Their success mirrors that of so-called "Tartan noir" writers like Ian Rankin, Val McDermid, Christopher Brookmyre and William McIlvanney, who have also used the detective genre to explore social themes.

According to Rankin, these very similar strands of fiction hint at something deep-rooted in national characteristics.

"In countries where it's dark half the year, you do tend to have a great tradition of storytelling," he says.

"Whenever I've met Scandinavian writers, we do share quite a dark sense of humour and a feeling that the world's messed up, we might as well laugh about it.

"Both sides tend to share quite a dark view of the human condition, and are certainly a long way from the Agatha Christie school of crime writing."

A shared Calvinist tradition may account for this common interest in a genre which thrives on a pessimistic view of human nature. But as Rankin suggests, many of the cultural similarities could owe much to proximity.

An oft-repeated tale has Jo Grimond, former Liberal MP for Orkney and Shetland, being asked to give the name of his nearest rail station on a parliamentary expenses form, and writing "Bergen, Norway".

And for centuries there were political links across the North Sea. The first Viking raid on Iona is thought to have taken part in 794, and much of the Hebrides and Caithness would come under Norse rule. Orkney and Shetland continued to be earldoms under Norway until 1468.

This settlement resulted in the Scandinavian-derived Norn language being spoken on Orkney and Shetland until the 18th Century, and influencing the Shetlandic and Orcadian dialects to this day.

But this Norse settlement did not, in the main, affect the central belt - the most populous, culturally dominant part of the country. This has meant the Nordic influence has been downplayed, according to Norwegian-born Dr Arne Kruse, senior lecturer in Scandinavian studies at the University of Edinburgh, who has lived in Scotland for 22 years.

In his view, however, this has led to many important potential areas of co-operation being downplayed.

"There are so many similarities, especially in terms of our relationship to nature - the oil, the fisheries, the fish farming, the renewables," he says. "There are so many parallels."

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57200000/jpg/_57200007_horns_thinkstock.jpg
Horns feature prominently in the iconography of both sides (NB real Viking helmets did not normally have horns)

In particular, he says, Scotland's Presbyterian heritage mirrors Scandinavia's Lutheran tradition, lending both peoples an egalitarian suspicion of rank and a strong emphasis on the importance of education.

But while in recent decades, Scotland's preferences as expressed at the ballot box have arguably been closer to those of social-democratic Scandinavia than much of the UK, the economies of both sides are very different.

The Nordic countries have thrived on high-tech, high-skilled industries. By contrast, Scotland has placed far greater emphasis on services since its decline in heavy manufacturing.

The Scotsman columnist Lesley Riddoch set up the think tank Nordic Horizons to push for closer links between the Holyrood parliament and its northern neighbours.

She argues that regardless of whether Scotland opts for independence, it should seek to learn from these countries.

"It's like two cousins who have gone their own ways - only one of them still has his own hair, but they're still cousins," she says.

"In many ways, Scotland is the southern, fertile end of the Nordic empire."

However, Riddoch accepts that the north will only ever be one influence on Scotland. Unsurprisingly, many Scots strongly identify with their Gaelic heritage. Estimates suggest that a third of Glasgow's population has family ties with Ireland.

Additionally, the fact that most opinion polls still show only a minority of Scottish voters favour independence is used by supporters of the union to argue that voters still value the link with the rest of the UK.

"It's true that Glasgow will be looking to Ireland as a Celtic nation whereas the east looks both to the Nordics and the low countries," Riddoch says. "But every nation has the same thing of looking two ways."

Indeed, Kruse argues that this mix of cultural influences is what sets the country apart from the more homogenous Nordic nations and, ultimately, makes Scotland Scottish.

"When I first came here I experienced a mosaic of cultures," he says. "That's what makes Scotland unique."

[Gaztelu]

Argyll is not going to like this.

[Pallantides]

They forgot to mention that some of the great Norwegians who have Scottish ancestry;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Petter_Dass_i_Melhus.jpg/220px-Petter_Dass_i_Melhus.jpg
http://www.sffarkiv.no/webdb/fileStream.aspx?fileName=dbatlas_leks%5CSFFkl-119684%5Ckvalitet2%5CSFFkl-119684.91552.jpg
http://chartnorway.webs.com/450viskat730.jpg

[Tarja]

Argyll is not going to like this.

That's what I thought. :D

[Pallantides]

I'd worry more for Sorcha, she seem to totally despise us...:p(stuck in 800 AD....?)

[AussieScott]

Scot Royal line also comes from Scandinavia, it's why the name Margaret is so popular.

[Mercury]

Horns feature prominently in the iconography of both sides (NB real Viking helmets did not normally have horns)

Someone could correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Viking helmets never had horns.

[+Suomut+]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16050269...good article, thanks for sharing it Tarja. :thumb001: :)
They forgot to mention that some of the great Norwegians who have Scottish ancestry;)I had no idea...thanks for sharing Pallantides. :)
Someone could correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Viking helmets never had horns.I wouldn't write 'never;' but if an authentic one ever appears I know you, I, and a whole lot of scholars will be quite surprised. ;) Regardless, the 'horned versions' are COOL! :D , and it's just fine by me if 'Scottish Vikings' wear 'em. :D ;)

[ikki]

hah, so now we have to wait for estonia to be acclaimed nordic, and after that we can expect to wait another 30-40 years before scotland can be bordic if they managed to get fully independent before estonia was fully admited into the nordic club :p

[Phil75231]

How Scandinavian is Scotland?

Probably not very much, with the posible exceptions of the Shetlands and the Orkneys. There's plenty of Nordic DNA in some areas, owing to the Viking settlement, but that was many centuries ago.

[billErobreren]

Well at least now I know why I've always felt so close to the Scots.

Great find

[Jake Featherston]

The Orkneys are basically a western extension of Scandinavia. Otherwise, the answer is "not very."

[GeistFaust]

I would say that Scotland has a decent amount of Scandinavian ancestry both from Norway and Denmark depending where we are talking about. There of course plenty of Celtic peoples that are in Scotland and this evident in a lot of the phenotypes especially in the Southwestern/Western parts of Scotland.

The Island areas probably have considerably more Scandinavian then parts of the Scottish mainland although I would say its all rather scattered out. The outer and Inner Hebrides probably have a decent amount of Scandinavia as do the highlands. The midlands are probably more of a mix especially further away from the inlets.

The Southeastern/Eastern parts have a lot of Boernician ancestry connecting them with Northwestern English people with Danish ancestry. Its all rather spread out in Scotland regarding the Scandinavian ancestry and there are definitely much higher in some areas but it is definitely considerable overall.

[Occident]

The historic connection with Scandinavia, outside of the Shetlands, isnt all that different or any stronger that possesed by England. Still if Scotland does become independant I would rather they orientate themselves towards the Nordic nations over the obsession with Ireland possesed by some Scottish seperatists. But then I'd want an independant England (or better yet a united Britain) to look in precisely the same direction.

[Pallantides]

I had no idea...thanks for sharing Pallantides. :)

Many Scots settled in western Norway during the 16th and 17th century, it was called 'Skottetiden'(The Scot Age) because of the large amount of Scottish immigrants. :)

[Nglund]

Scotland is as Scandinavian as Apple Pie.

[Argyll]

Scotland is HARDLY Scandinavian. All of these Germanic wannabes is really sickening. The language has some Orkney influences, but Scotland's culture is 110% Celtic. I don't know if this is a thread specifically designed to piss me off, but seriously, take pride in the actual culture.

People use this 'Vikings invaded and settled' excuse for Norse ancestry all the time. It doesn't work. If anyone even actually looks at genetic maps, there is almost next to none for Scandinavian genes. I think people forget that the vikings were a minority in these lands. :rolleyes:

The east of Scotland shouldn't even look at all towards the Nordic countries as it was never touched by the vikings. It seems that these fools are bored with their own culture and want to find another one that they think is cooler and try to pose as it.

[Pallantides]

If anyone even actually looks at genetic maps, there is almost next to none for Scandinavian genes. I think people forget that the vikings were a minority in these lands. :rolleyes:

.

On some published genetic maps (west)Norwegians cluster with the Irish and British.

[Der Steinadler]

There's no doubting the ancestral ties between the two places, but, i would question anything proposed by the current 'Scottish Government'.

The same rule should be applied to the current 'Scandinavian Governments'.

[Argyll]

On some published genetic maps (west)Norwegians cluster with the Irish and British.

Maybe because the vikings pillagers took Celtic slaves, perhaps? :rolleyes: But then again, every attractive person in Scotland or Ireland is obviously of Norse descent because the true natives are just so below them.

[Pallantides]

Maybe because the vikings pillagers took Celtic slaves, perhaps? :rolleyes: But then again, every attractive person in Scotland or Ireland is obviously of Norse descent because the true natives are just so below them.

I'm glad you have realised the truth.:D:thumb001:

[Graham]

Somerled's Norse-Gael Lordship of The Isles and the gallowglass.The Irish called them Gall Gaeil "foreign Gaels" due to the Norse influence. McDonald/Macdonald is Scotland's second top surname today. They descend from Somerled.


http://www.clan-donald-fl.org/images/p004_1_00.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Norse-Gael_Warrior.PNG/201px-Norse-Gael_Warrior.PNG
-----------------
The Lewis Chessmen are a group of 78 12th-century chess pieces, most of which are carved in walrus ivory. Discovered in 1831 on the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides, Scotland.

The chessmen were probably made in Norway, perhaps by craftsmen in Trondheim, in the 12th century, although some scholars have suggested other sources in the Nordic countries.During that period the Outer Hebrides, along with other major groups of Scottish islands, were ruled by Norway.

http://www.computescotland.com/images/tc4I0qKVzyKi6GyuNoY90gn0a4.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Chess01.jpg/800px-Chess01.jpg

Vikings!

[Argyll]

My last name could be Hinga Dinga Durgen. Does that mean I'm Norse? Any Norse genes over that vast amount of time would have become recessive and died out.

[Gaztelu]

My last name could be Hinga Dinga Durgen. Does that mean I'm Norse? Any Norse genes over that vast amount of time would have become recessive and died out.

You should come to terms with your Anglo-Scandinavian roots.

It's called maturity.

[Argyll]

You should come to terms with your Anglo-Scandinavian roots.

It's called maturity.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:




YOU KNOW MY FAMILY HISTORY WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME?!?!?!?!?!?

[Gaztelu]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:




YOU KNOW MY FAMILY HISTORY WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING ME?!?!?!?!?!?

Yes I do, Olaf.

God has graced me with the powers of infinite knowledge.

[Treffie]

Scotland is HARDLY Scandinavian. All of these Germanic wannabes is really sickening. The language has some Orkney influences, but Scotland's culture is 110% Celtic.

I guess you'll shit yourself when you do visit.:D

If language is culture, then Scotland is 1% Celtic.

[AussieScott]

My last name could be Hinga Dinga Durgen. Does that mean I'm Norse? Any Norse genes over that vast amount of time would have become recessive and died out.

The clan I belong to is of Scandinavian origin, in other words Vikings settled, some of the highlands...Shock horror. The same happened to parts of Ireland, the Danes went Viking on the black shields...

Get over it dude, if it was not for our Germanic/Pict/Celt/Scandinavian ancestry Scotland would not be Scotland.

Stop living in denial of reality.

What origins do you think The Bruce has?

Norse genes died out...well I'm going to get spit test and we'll see what that says, I bet your wrong.

[Argyll]

Oh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gaztelu]

Oh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and to answer your question in the chatbox:

No, I will not engage in racial miscegenation.

[Argyll]

The clan I belong to is of Scandinavian origin, in other words Vikings settled, some of the highlands...Shock horror. The same happened to parts of Ireland, the Danes went Viking on the black shields...

Get over it dude, if it was not for our Germanic/Pict/Celt ancestry Scotland would not be Scotland.

Stop living in denial of reality.

What origins do you think The Bruce has?

You're right. Every Scottish person is of Scandinavian origin, the vikings iilled all of the Celts, except for the women and replaced everything there with Germanic stuff!!! FUN, FUN, FUN!!!!!

[Gaztelu]

You're right. Every Scottish person is of Scandinavian origin, the vikings iilled all of the Celts, except for the women and replaced everything there with Germanic stuff!!! FUN, FUN, FUN!!!!!

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/tumblr_lh3lw3riTI1qzeciro1_400.jpg

I wish I knew how to write that in Norwegian (Pallantides, if you're reading this, help me please).

[Argyll]

I'm sick of people thinking that Germanics dominated Scotland. Goodbye thread! Tarja, did an excellent job of pissing me off, even though that wasn't your aim. *unsubscribed*

[Pallantides]

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/tumblr_lh3lw3riTI1qzeciro1_400.jpg

I wish I knew how to write that in Norwegian (Pallantides, if you're reading this, help me please).

Argyll, er du sint?

[+Suomut+]

Somerled's Norse-Gael Lordship of The Isles and the gallowglass.The Irish called them Gall Gaeil "foreign Gaels" due to the Norse influence.--------Vikings!AWESOME POST ALL AROUND!, Graham! :thumb001: :) The very same thing can be said of Galloway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galloway) (I'm a member of the Galloway FAMILY by blood) although the map you show overlooks it: "It is generally agreed that the name 'Galloway' derives from the name Gall-Gaidel, and indeed the modern and medieval words for Galloway in Gaelic are Gall-Ghàidhealaibh and Gallgaidelaib respectively, "land of the foreign Gaels"" ; "English dominance seems to have been supplanted by Norse and then Norse-Gaelic (Gall-Gaidel) peoples between the 9th and the 11th century, though the processes by which this took place are unclear. However they can be seen in the context of widespread Norse domination of the Irish Sea including extensive settlement in the Isle of Man and in the now English region of Cumbria immediately south of Galloway." :)

[Phil75231]

Sure, Scots do have a little bit of Viking DNA, but that doesn't make it a Nordic country through and through - any more than multi-generation Californians of Scandinanvian blood (I'm looking at you, Byrneceres) makes them Scandinavians. Hell, there's been Scandinavians in the Upper Midwest since the mid 19th century. Yet nobody would call this area actual Scandinavia, never mind they still have traits commonly found in Scandinavia. Minnesotans are no more Scandinavian than I am culturally English or Irish.

[Hevneren]

I must say I am a little surprised to read about Scots who feel close ties to Norway, Sweden and Denmark. I guess it never occurred to me that Scots would feel anything but Celtic or Anglo-Saxon. I figured our presence in the past has at best been ignored and at worst been a nuisance for proud Scots. Then again, many Scots seem - ironically much like the English - to embrace all of their history and heritage.

I'd be curious to know how the common Scot feels about this issue. Do they feel any connection to Norway, Sweden, Denmark? Or is this Scotland-Scandinavia connection more of an idea furthered by politicians and intellectuals, but disregarded by the people? Either way I'd be curious to know. :)

As for the question of how Scandinavian Scotland is, I don't know if that's something I as a foreigner can answer in full. It depends a lot on how Scots feel about this issue, how the past effects them culturally and linguistically, what they identify themselves as etc. All I can say is that the Orkney's, the Hebrides and Shetland (Isle of Man too, but I don't think it's Scottish) all have had a strong Norwegian presence for 600 years or more, and I can see how that history can affect the local populations on these islands.

[+Suomut+]

This is just a quick reply to you Hevneren, because I can't reply in full now. :( Whatever affects whether genetically, culturally, etc. Swedish-Vikings had on the British Isles and Eire were VERY MINIMAL to the point of not even worth mentioning much. It was Norse-Vikings who had the STRONGEST overall influences on Scotland, Eire, and northern England...places wherein Danish-Vikings had weaker influences; whereas in the rest of England the inverse was true: Danish-Vikings had the STRONGEST influences and the Norse-Vikings had weaker influences. So this all means in a place like Scotland that the NORSE, as a folk, are really at the CORE of a discussion/thread like this in RELATION to Scots. If we had a thread like this going in the English context, we'd be talking about DANES; and in ALL contexts like this concerning the whole of these islands of northwest Europe, we'd hardly be able to talk about SWEDES much at all. So yeah, any kind of discussion about "Scandinavian Scotland" MOSTLY means "NORSE Scotland." :)

[Graham]

I'd be curious to know how the common Scot feels about this issue. Do they feel any connection to Norway, Sweden, Denmark

Scotland was fragmented and disunited with lots of bickering and fighting. Clans and families with their own lineages and Kinships. Normans, Flemish, Anglo, Celtic, Norse etc.. The place was in civil war most of the time.

We came closer to Scandinavia and England(apart from Cromwell) after the reformation. Before Scotland was closest to France. The Auld Alliance from 1295–1560(under French law all Scots were French citizens).

[Anthropologique]

Scotland is essentially Atlantic Celtic (culturally and "genetically") with some Germanic / Nordic influences. Actually, I believe England has considerably more Germanic / Nordic heritage than Scotland.

[Pallantides]

Scotland je Norway
http://i.imgur.com/CktsI.png

[Ánleifr]

How Scandinavian is Scotland?

Probably not very much, with the posible exceptions of the Shetlands and the Orkneys. There's plenty of Nordic DNA in some areas, owing to the Viking settlement, but that was many centuries ago.

Yes I agree. Viking yDNA can be found in Scottland and even Clan MacDonald can prove descent from a Viking and their yDNA matches up. The Vikings also occupied parts of Ireland and England, there are many places like Dublin that were named by the Vikings. The Normans were also descendants of the Vikings however, in all of these cases the Vikings intermingled with the native Celts and Anglo-Saxons that were already there at the time of the Viking raids. I would say that the British Isles are more Germanic and Celtic than Scandinavian.

Breakdown of various R1A1 origins: http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#8

Map: http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i461/Tuck479/europe-haplogroups.png

[Argyll]

:laugh:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pallantides]

Scotland relied heavily on Norwegian timber in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century, in this period there was extensive trade between the two countries and like I mentioned earlier in the thread a large number of Scots settled permanently in Norway. There are some places and surnames in western Norway that are of Scottish origin.

[Argyll]

Scotland relied heavily on Norwegian timber in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century, in this period there was extensive trade between the two countries and like I mentioned earlier in the thread a large number of Scots settled permanently in Norway. There are some places and surnames in western Norway that are of Scottish origin.

I fail to see how that makes Scotland Scandinavian or Germanic.

[Pallantides]

I was just pointing out that the influence and interaction between Scotland and Norway have not just been flowing in one direction. A very large number of Scots settled in western Norway and assimilated into the Norwegian population.

There is a lot of talk about Norse genetic influence in Britian, but never the Celtic genetic influence in Scandinavia. All those Irish and Scots who were brought to Norway by the Vikings didn't just vanish into thin air.

[Laudanum]

Scotland je Norway
http://i.imgur.com/CktsI.png

Argyll je Germanic

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J-V3E4TLZCI/TUs4RekjLCI/AAAAAAAAA8g/iqe-RSKsOec/s400/Coolface_thinks.jpg

[Osweo]

However they can be seen in the context of widespread Norse domination of the Irish Sea[/COLOR][/U][/B] including extensive settlement in the Isle of Man and in the now English region of Cumbria immediately south of Galloway.[/I]" :)
It always irks me that coastal Lancashire is left out of this equation. The Kingdom of Man as good as extended east into the Pennines. And the Wirral peninsula of Cheshire was also solidly (Hiberno-)Norse.

Cumberland was very Norse, certainly, but the Lancastrian hundred of Amounderness couldn't sound more Norse; Agmundarnes! We have Ormskirk, Ulverston-Ulvarr's tun, Formby-Fornabyr, and tons more such places. In 1086, the Domesday survey records lots of minor Norse named landlords here - Orm, Ulf, Torfin, Turulf... :thumb001:


If we had a thread like this going in the English context, we'd be talking about DANES;
Aye, but mostly in the east (Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire etc.). In Lancashire, there are only slight traces of Danes, in the placenames Flixton and Urmston (Flik and Urm being typically Danish, rather than Norwegian).


There are some places and surnames in western Norway that are of Scottish origin.

I'd love to hear of the placenames!

***

LoL, I can imagine some Celtomaniacs in the Highlands, driving into a place called an Thobhtha, and saying "Gee whizz, ain't it great to see all these Gaelic Celtic names?" not realising that it is merely a Gaelic spelling of Norse 'toft'.... :D

[Pallantides]

They didn't give names to large areas it was mostly farms and it was often a family name.


Some of the surnames of Scottish origin(there are many more but I can't be bothered to go looking for them now, these are just the ones I know from memory) are Christie/Chrystie, Grieg(from McGregor), Dass(from Dundas)


There is also Skottelåven(The Scottish barn) were the survivors of Sinclairs army was massacred after the Battle of Kringen in 1612.:D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Skottelaaven.jpg

[Hevneren]

Argyll je Germanic

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J-V3E4TLZCI/TUs4RekjLCI/AAAAAAAAA8g/iqe-RSKsOec/s400/Coolface_thinks.jpg

http://www.starbuddies.com/_ups/cris%20crocker.jpg
LEAVE ARGYLL ALONE!!!! The Celts are, like, super awesome and it's totally unfair!

[Northern_Sun]

Argyle, I don’t think that anyone is trying to insult you or to say that Celtic culture is inferior in anyway, but the United Kingdom and Ireland does have some Norse history and genetics as well. On the other hand you can always say that Iceland has a significant presence of MtDNA from Ireland and Scotland.

Happy? :D

I used to live on the border with Scotland, in Cumbria, and there were a lot of Old Norse place names.

For instance, in Cumbria they did not use the word lake, they would instead use the word tarn. Talkin Tarn was a small lake where I lived and the word Tarn is Norse in origin coming from "Tjorn" meaning tear drop or small lake. Talkin is actually Celtic in origin "Talcan" meaning brow of a hill. So there was a mix of Celtic and Norse influence.

These are some place names in Cumbria:

Ulverston from Ulfrs tun ('Ulfr's farmstead'), Kendal from Kent dalr ('valley of the River Kent') and Elterwater from eltr vatn ('swan lake').

Here are some more place name examples from Scotland and England

Scandinavian place-name elements include:

-bekkr (beck) a farmstead or settlement, then a village Caldbeck, Cumbria
-by a farmstead or settlement, then a village Whitby, North Yorkshire
-dalr a dale, valley Patterdale, Cumbria
-ey an island Orkney
-fjall an island Orkney
-fjorthr fjord=sea inlet Strangford, County Down (meaning 'strong inlet';it's Irish name is Baile Loch Cuan)
-gathr (-garth) a yard, open space Aysgarth, N.Yorks
-gil a ravine Garrigill, Cumbria
-holmr (-holm) flat ground by a river Durham
-kirkja a church hence Scots kirk Ormskirk, Lancashire
-lundr a grove
-nes promomntory, headland Skegness, Lincs
-thorp an outlying farmstead or hamlet Milnthorpe, Cumbria
-thveit (-thwaite) a meadow Haverthwaite, Cumbria
-toft a site of a house and outbuildings, a plot of land, a homestead Lowestoft, Suffolk
-vithr a wood Skipwith, North Yorkshire

Oxford Ancestry has done an extensive study on the DNA origins of the Isles, and while not overwhelming, some areas do have substantial Viking/Norse presence. I’ll reread the chapter on Scotland and write a summery.

[Osweo]

These are some place names in Cumbria:
Nice, but where did you dig up those 'definitions'? Some are just plain wrong. :p

-bekkr (beck) a farmstead or settlement, then a village
I actually use the word 'beck'! It's a burn or brook, obviously :p

-fjall an island
A fell is a mountain. I suppose you copy-pasted wrong. :p


-holmr (-holm) flat ground by a river Durham
In't no flat land by the Wear - and I used to live there. ;) A holm is a bump in the ground, rather.


-thveit (-thwaite) a meadow Haverthwaite, Cumbria
Hmmm... a 'clearing', more like.


-toft a site of a house and outbuildings, a plot of land, a homestead
The plot meaning is the most important, I think. My favourite British one is 'an Tobhtha' on the Isle of Skye. It takes a VERY good linguistic eye to spot the Norse in that! :D

The surname of the cricketer Flintoff has it in too, despite the coincidental Russian sound. :p

[johngaunt]

Argyle, I don’t think that anyone is trying to insult you or to say that Celtic culture is inferior in anyway, but the United Kingdom and Ireland does have some Norse history and genetics as well. On the other hand you can always say that Iceland has a significant presence of MtDNA from Ireland and Scotland.

Happy? :D

I used to live on the border with Scotland, in Cumbria, and there were a lot of Old Norse place names.

For instance, in Cumbria they did not use the word lake, they would instead use the word tarn. Talkin Tarn was a small lake where I lived and the word Tarn is Norse in origin coming from "Tjorn" meaning tear drop or small lake. Talkin is actually Celtic in origin "Talcan" meaning brow of a hill. So there was a mix of Celtic and Norse influence.

These are some place names in Cumbria:

Ulverston from Ulfrs tun ('Ulfr's farmstead'), Kendal from Kent dalr ('valley of the River Kent') and Elterwater from eltr vatn ('swan lake').

Here are some more place name examples from Scotland and England

Scandinavian place-name elements include:

-bekkr (beck) a farmstead or settlement, then a village Caldbeck, Cumbria
-by a farmstead or settlement, then a village Whitby, North Yorkshire
-dalr a dale, valley Patterdale, Cumbria
-ey an island Orkney
-fjall an island Orkney
-fjorthr fjord=sea inlet Strangford, County Down (meaning 'strong inlet';it's Irish name is Baile Loch Cuan)
-gathr (-garth) a yard, open space Aysgarth, N.Yorks
-gil a ravine Garrigill, Cumbria
-holmr (-holm) flat ground by a river Durham
-kirkja a church hence Scots kirk Ormskirk, Lancashire
-lundr a grove
-nes promomntory, headland Skegness, Lincs
-thorp an outlying farmstead or hamlet Milnthorpe, Cumbria
-thveit (-thwaite) a meadow Haverthwaite, Cumbria
-toft a site of a house and outbuildings, a plot of land, a homestead Lowestoft, Suffolk
-vithr a wood Skipwith, North Yorkshire

Oxford Ancestry has done an extensive study on the DNA origins of the Isles, and while not overwhelming, some areas do have substantial Viking/Norse presence. I’ll reread the chapter on Scotland and write a summery.

Lancahire and Cumbria were greatly influenced by the Vikings apprenty

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7515/lancs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/lancs.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1203/27733228.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/27733228.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8012/manfromwirral.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/manfromwirral.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Source:http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/ncmh/lecture_notes/Hoylake_9Mar10.pdf

[Northern_Sun]

Nice, but where did you dig up those 'definitions'? Some are just plain wrong. :p

I actually use the word 'beck'! It's a burn or brook, obviously :p

A fell is a mountain. I suppose you copy-pasted wrong. :p

In't no flat land by the Wear - and I used to live there. ;) A holm is a bump in the ground, rather.

Hmmm... a 'clearing', more like.

The plot meaning is the most important, I think. My favourite British one is 'an Tobhtha' on the Isle of Skye. It takes a VERY good linguistic eye to spot the Norse in that! :D

The surname of the cricketer Flintoff has it in too, despite the coincidental Russian sound. :p

I got these from this bloody British site:
http://www.bsswebsite.me.uk/A%20Short%20History%20of/placenames.html


Talkin Tarn and the other ones in Cumbria I know for sure are Norse as I lived there. :D

[Osweo]

I got these from this bloody British site:
http://www.bsswebsite.me.uk/A%20Short%20History%20of/placenames.html
Save us from internet enthusiasts!

Get this;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0198691033/ref=sr_1_1_up_1_main_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328318026&sr=1-1&condition=used
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V-MHbR4rL._SL500_.jpg


Talkin Tarn and the other ones in Cumbria I know for sure are Norse as I lived there. :D
Aye, there's a Talke in the west Midlands somewhere too, with the same Welsh origin. :)

[Northern_Sun]

Save us from internet enthusiasts!

Get this;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0198691033/ref=sr_1_1_up_1_main_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328318026&sr=1-1&condition=used
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51V-MHbR4rL._SL500_.jpg

Aye, there's a Talke in the west Midlands somewhere too, with the same Welsh origin. :)

Talkin Tarn: the first part is Celtic and Tarn is Norse. Look it up.:D

[Beorn]

This thread should be renamed: "Are the Scottish teh ultimate British?"

[Korbis]

I wish my best to the Scots if they manage to get independence, but thinking they could achieve a living standard nearly as good as scandinavian countries on their own is a bit outlandish (which I believe is the intention if this "study", linking genes with politics). They´re just too... scot for that. Also they´re too used to depend of Englands wealth to get their goodies.

[Graham]

I wish my best to the Scots if they manage to get independence, but thinking they could achieve a living standard nearly as good as scandinavian countries on their own is a bit outlandish (which I believe is the intention if this "study", linking genes with politics). They´re just too... scot for that. Also they´re too used to depend of Englands wealth to get their goodies.

For the millionth fucking time.. We pay more in taxes through resources. That's why we receive more. This is the last time I'll say it.

What we pay on tuition fees,prescription fees etc.. Comes no where near, to what the London Olympics has cost. £24bn and over budget!

[Libertas]

If Scotland becomes independent, Glasgow should be the capital with its superior commercial sector and bigger population.

Look at recent Edinburgh incompetence and ludicrous overspending in the (still uncompleted) tram project and that hideous modern Scottish Parliament building that cost TEN times the original quote.

[Graham]

If Scotland becomes independent, Glasgow should be the capital with its superior commercial sector and bigger population.

Look at recent Edinburgh incompetence and ludicrous overspending in the (still uncompleted) tram project and that hideous modern Scottish Parliament building that cost TEN times the original quote.

Tha tram project was brought in by Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives. Scottish Parliament was a Labour project.

Glasgow's looking quite nice now, compared to what it has been. A lot of those high rises are being knocked down(Red Road flats soon) and rejuvenation going on. Even more so in Dundee.

I'd agree with you about Glasgow, but could see the Edinburgh folk making a fuss. :p

[Ouistreham]

A shared Calvinist tradition may account for this common interest in a genre which thrives on a pessimistic view of human nature. But as Rankin suggests, many of the cultural similarities could owe much to proximity.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16050269


OMG.
BBC illiteracy at its best.
Since when has Scandinavia been Calvinist?...


even kilt (from the verb kjalta, meaning "to fold") are derived from Old Norse.
It's rather related to Scandinavian kjol (for skirt).

[Argyll]

OMG.
BBC illiteracy at its best.
Since when has Scandinavia been Calvinist?...


It's rather related to Scandinavian kjol (for skirt).

Kilts are Gaelic in origin.


The Breacan an Fhéilidh (belted plaid) or Féileadh Mòr (great plaid) is likely to have evolved over the course of the 16th century from the earlier 'brat' or woollen cloak (also known as plaid) which was worn over a tunic. This earlier cloak or brat may have been plain in colour or in various check or tartan designs, depending on the wealth of the wearer; this earlier fashion of clothing had not changed significantly from that worn by Celtic warriors in Roman times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt

[rhiannon]

The clan I belong to is of Scandinavian origin, in other words Vikings settled, some of the highlands...Shock horror. The same happened to parts of Ireland, the Danes went Viking on the black shields...

Get over it dude, if it was not for our Germanic/Pict/Celt/Scandinavian ancestry Scotland would not be Scotland.

Stop living in denial of reality.

What origins do you think The Bruce has?

Norse genes died out...well I'm going to get spit test and we'll see what that says, I bet your wrong.

I like the fact there is a fair amount of Norse influence all over the British Isles. There is really no denying it:) Any of us whose ancestry stems largely from the Isles as mine does will be interested to know more about the interaction between the Celts/Anglos/Saxons/Norse/Normans. Whatever all of these interactions were, they resulted in those of us who call ourselves descendants of the Isles:)

[Albion]

I think Scotland is largely Celtic but with a strong Germanic input. Certainly Scotland would not be the country it is today if it wasn't for the Angles and the Norse as well.

The Highlands and Islands have always played second fiddle to the Lowlands anyway, and what are the Lowlands? Why Anglian of course. ;)
So the the Proto-English (Angles) essentially ran and made Scotland the nation it is today, not some isolated Viking relics in the Highlands or Celtic savages in the Hebrides. :D
Doesn't that just piss you all off? :D Scotland's greatest sons were Proto-English! :wink

I hope Argyll reads this.


Scotland is essentially Atlantic Celtic (culturally and "genetically") with some Germanic / Nordic influences. Actually, I believe England has considerably more Germanic / Nordic heritage than Scotland.

Well yeah, the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes changed the entire culture. Whether or not it is still a Celtic population mainly is a different matter, but the culture became very Germanic in a matter of generations.

[Hevneren]

Well yeah, the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes changed the entire culture.

From what I know, the Norwegians had a much stronger presence in Scotland than the Danes. The Danes stuck more to the Dane Law area.

[Raskolnikov]

The Atlantic/d-Celticist counter-ideology to the Nordic/d/ish Germanicist one is even stupider than the original. Language philology =!= ethnoracial origins, not for Germanics and not for (ex)Celts.

[Graham]

From what I know, the Norwegians had a much stronger presence in Scotland than the Danes. The Danes stuck more to the Dane Law area.

There's a place in Aberdeenshire called Cruden Bay, the name derives from the Gaelic Croch Dain (Slaughter of Danes). We defeated Cnut there. They tried but failed. :)

http://www.stmarystjames.org.uk/history/83-the-battle-of-cruden-1012.html

[Albion]

From what I know, the Norwegians had a much stronger presence in Scotland than the Danes. The Danes stuck more to the Dane Law area.

I was talking about England.

[Argyll]

Scotland is not Scandinavian.

[Nglund]

Scotland is Scandinavian.


:eek:

[Pallantides]

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Norway/Flag-Pins-Norway-Scotland.jpg

[Nglund]

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Norway/Flag-Pins-Norway-Scotland.jpg


http://cphpost.dk/sites/default/files/styles/400x300/public/scotlandmap_450.jpg

[Graham]

Relevance to the Topic. Argyll as the number one Celt, don't shoot the messenger. :D

05.02.2012 | 13:30
Scots to Discuss Icelandic Constitutional Council
http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/search/news/Default.asp?ew_0_a_id=387072
Is Scotland really a long-lost bit of the Nordic countries—and could little Iceland help shape Scotland’s constitutional future?

The next meeting of the think tank Nordic Horizons, held on March 29 in the Scottish Parliament, will focus on the Icelandic Constitutional Council. One of the council’s members, economics professor Þorvaldur Gylfason, will lead the discussions.

News review by Lesley Riddoch.



http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/upload/images/news/almennt/constitutionalcouncil-060411_pk.jpg

The Icelandic Constitutional Council. Photo by Páll Kjartansson.

Geologically speaking, Scotland was once part of the Nordic landmass.

Genetically speaking, island Scots have more Norse DNA than any other Britons.

Culturally speaking, Norse occupation left Scotland with Viking place-names and a Presbyterian share of the Lutheran distaste for pomp, bling, display and status.

But England had its own brush with Viking occupation. Trade also linked Scotland to Holland and France. The Empire saw wealthy Scots trade tobacco, sugar and slaves across the world. Last century Irish immigrants piled in from the west and the rule of law stretched up from the south.

The Scots are a mongrel nation and (usually) proud of it. So why have SNP strategists suggested Scotland could “join the Nordic circle of nations” if there’s a “Yes” vote in the forthcoming independence referendum?

Are the Nordic nations sought out just because they are “family” or because they’ve become the smartest, healthiest and most successful country cousins for miles around?

Eurozone collapse has doubtless hastened the SNP’s search for a more stable block of trading partners. But Scotland’s Nordic connections are not just historic.

Scotland, like Norway, has important oil, gas, hydro and fish reserves. Scotland, like Sweden has emerged from half a century of solid Labour voting. Parts of Scotland like Finland are struggling with a legacy of bad diet and Scotland like Denmark has embraced wind and marine energy.

But Scotland like tiny Iceland (and of course the mighty USA) was brought to the edge of bankruptcy by its banks. The RBS bailout from the London government destroyed the first attempt by SNP leader Alex Salmond to encourage Scottish independence by comparing Scotland to Iceland, Ireland and Norway in what he called the “Arc of Prosperity.”

The fear was—would Scotland have gone bankrupt without England? Nonetheless Scotland is heading for a referendum on independence in 2014—but there’s no clear idea of what “going it alone” would mean. That’s natural—the experience of each nation is unique. But knowing more about the story of neighbours can help.

That’s why—after making a BBC documentary on Norway’s Outdoor Kindergartens in 2010—I set up a think tank called Nordic Horizons with a colleague here in Scotland. We felt there wasn’t enough information about how other small northern countries operate—devolved or fully independent.

In policy—and maybe in politics—Scotland clearly has as much to learn from its left-leaning, small-nation Nordic cousins as from our right-leaning, 50 million strong English partners.

We’ve held well attended meetings in the Scottish Parliament for policy-makers and the public on municipal government, women’s quotas, oil, gas and the High North, kindergarten and the Nordic Model(s) to Scotland.

The next meeting on March 29 in the Scottish Parliament will focus on the Icelandic Constitutional Council.

Economics professor Þorvaldur Gylfason will lead the roundtable discussion along with Scottish professors David McCrone and Elizabeth Meehan and the Convenor of the European and External Affairs Committee, Christina McKelvie MSP.

We want to explore how the people of Iceland took the lead in rewriting the Constitution and ask what lessons Scots can learn as we start our own constitutional process.

For further information, go to nordichorizons.org.

Click here to read more about the Icelandic Constitutional Council.

[Treffie]

Geologically speaking, Scotland was once part of the Nordic landmass.

The north-west half, where Loch Ness and the Great Glen are. It looks like it's going to slide away. You can see it quite clearly on a map

http://www.scotland-calling.com/nessie/map.gif

[Graham]

Great Glen Fault is mainly inactive, think it'll take a while to move. We should look into the fact that the South is sinking. A glacial rebound due to the Ice melting. :D:thumb001::D

http://www.john-daly.com/refugees/image015.jpg

[Pyramidologist]

Scotland is not Scandinavian.

Right. The Scandinavian genetic input was minimal. The Vikings raided in bands of ten to twenty men. There were no more than a few thousand Norse in the entire of British Isles. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (just re-reading it now) has many entries for how few the Vikings were in number. They raided in very small numbers.

And that Scotland & Norway banner doesn't mean anything. You get all sorts of people making different claims. People have claimed the Scottish are Israelites, Phoenicians, Scythians, Egyptians to Indians, so claiming they are now Norse, just add to the list. :coffee:

[Pallantides]

Nobody is claiming they are pure Norse...

But Scots are a North European people and are genetically not so far removed from Western Norwegians(though there was Scottish immigration to Norway in the 15th and 16th century so that could explain some affinity)

[Pyramidologist]

Nobody is claiming they are pure Norse...

But Scots are a North European people and are genetically not so far removed from Western Norwegians and Icelanders.

Do you have links to studies? In regards to physical anthropology, there is nothing Nordid/Nordic about the average Scottish.

[Pallantides]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/europevariation-752360.jpg
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap1.jpg



We might have more Nordids than Scotland, but the majority of Norwegians are not Nordid either.

[Ánleifr]

Right. The Scandinavian genetic input was minimal. The Vikings raided in bands of ten to twenty men. There were no more than a few thousand Norse in the entire of British Isles. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (just re-reading it now) has many entries for how few the Vikings were in number. They raided in very small numbers.

And that Scotland & Norway banner doesn't mean anything. You get all sorts of people making different claims. People have claimed the Scottish are Israelites, Phoenicians, Scythians, Egyptians to Indians, so claiming they are now Norse, just add to the list. :coffee:

There is Scandinavia blood in the British Isles. There is even now a new SNP just for the Scots with Norse blood called R1a1a-L176. The Norse also created towns such as Dublin in Ireland. Yes, it is minimal, not widespread and after 1,000 years they have admixed into the population but the y-dna is there.

[Ánleifr]

Do you have links to studies? In regards to physical anthropology, there is nothing Nordid/Nordic about the average Scottish.

http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#8

[Albion]

Great Glen Fault is mainly inactive, think it'll take a while to move. We should look into the fact that the South is sinking. A glacial rebound due to the Ice melting. :D:thumb001::D

http://www.john-daly.com/refugees/image015.jpg

It's merely a gradual restoring of the pre-glacial land above sea levels. Don't worry, there's no chance of England being submerged - the most it can go is a few meters.
It is unlikely to revert fully back to its original state however because Scotland will be a frozen wasteland again long before then. ;)
The reason for the rebound is because Scotland and the North were sinking with the weight of the ice during the LGM, it is a (put it unscientifically) see-saw effect.
At least Southern England will look something like Iceland, the rest will be something like my freezer which needs defrosting.

On the plus side we'll have new land in the Channel, on the negative side that too will be Tundra. Sod that, I'd be on a yacht and out of here. ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Ice_Age_Europe_map.png

[Osweo]

http://cphpost.dk/sites/default/files/styles/400x300/public/scotlandmap_450.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3532/scotlandmap450.jpg

:wink

[Lumi]

As a Scot myself, I never really identified with my celtic heritage, always more with my Scandinavian roots.
I traced my family name as far back as Scandinavia, around the same time as the Viking raids. The first member of my family with the surname I have was recorded in Dingwall, but it was shown that the name originated in Scandinavia, most likely Sweden.
I like this idea of linking roots with Scandinavia.
Makes getting a citizenship in Sweden easier xD

But in all seriousness, as a Scot, I don't want to remain with England, nor do I want to join with the EU, so I reckon we're doing a good thing by talking to the Scandinavian countries.

[Lumi]

Do you have links to studies? In regards to physical anthropology, there is nothing Nordid/Nordic about the average Scottish.

Except, of course, those of us who have Nordic ancestry. :p

[Pyramidologist]

Except, of course, those of us who have Nordic ancestry. :p

Very few in Scotland do. Scotland is mostly of Pictish extraction.

[Pyramidologist]

^ What is up with all these self-hating Scottish people who neglect their aboriginal heritage and instead want to claim they are Vikings?

[Lumi]

Very few in Scotland do. Scotland is mostly of Pictish extraction.

Well, I'm not one of those Scots, mate.
You just need to look at my facial structure to know that I'm not of Pictish descent. High cheekbones are a Norse trait.


^ What is up with all these self-hating Scottish people who neglect their aboriginal heritage and instead want to claim they are Vikings?

Maybe that's because I do have Scandinavian roots. Or did you not read my introduction post? My surname can be traced back to Scandinavia, most likely Sweden.

Best you come to Scotland and see just how off your theory is :p

[Pallantides]

^ What is up with all these self-hating Scottish people who neglect their aboriginal heritage and instead want to claim they are Vikings?

http://www.paaneset.no/image.php?path=Galleri/1769/viking3.jpg
http://www.vikingtid.no/bilder/levende_viking_sverd.jpg


vs.

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/shetland/oldscatnessbroch/images/pict-450.jpg
http://www.glasgowvikings.co.uk/IMAGES/picts%20images/Pict5.jpg

:D

[Pyramidologist]

Well, I'm not one of those Scots, mate.
You just need to look at my facial structure to know that I'm not of Pictish descent. High cheekbones are a Norse trait.

Where did you get this idea from? High cheekbones are mostly observed in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids. In Caucasoids they are pretty rare, some Cro-Magnon fossil skulls have them and you can find them among a minority of modern or admixed Cro-Magnid types, not Nordid/Nordic.



Best you come to Scotland and see just how off your theory is :p

Look at pigmentation studies. The majority of Scottish are dark brown or medium brown haired and hazel or mixed eyed. Blondes and true light eyes in Scotland are the extreme minority.

I would say Scotland is less than 10% Nordid.

[Lumi]

Where did you get this idea from? High cheekbones are mostly observed in Mongoloids, not Caucasoids. In Caucasoids they are pretty rare, some Cro-Magnon fossil skulls have them and you can find them among a minority of modern or admixed Cro-Magnid types, not Nordid/Nordic.

I got that idea when I was classified as Keltic-Nordid and was told that high cheek bones, accompanied by my nose and jaw structure, were a feature of the Nordids and reminicsent of my Norse heritage.




Look at pigmentation studies. The majority of Scottish are dark brown or medium brown haired and hazel or mixed eyed. Blondes and true light eyes in Scotland are the extreme minority.

I would say Scotland is less than 10% Nordid.

If you think blonde hair and blue eyes makes you Norse then you're an idiot.
And I'm not in that "majority". I have dark blonde hair and blue eyes, mate.
Being blonde and having blue eyes doesn't make you any more Norse than the next person. I know a good majority of people from Sweden who have hazel eyes and brown hair, the same goes for my Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic friends. Guess none of them are Norse, eh? :icon_rolleyes:

Trust me mate. You don't want to argue about this with me.
I'm told you've never been to Scotland, so you can't really make an assumption like that.
I spent hours tracing my family heritage, so I'm not about to be told by some guy who thinks he knows everything that I'm wrong because he says so.

Do yourself a favour and come to Scotland.

[Pallantides]

High cheekbones are fairly common in Scandinavia.:)
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe043a.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/IngebriktBeitohaugen.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3402/embrikbeitohaugen.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Hallingdal/Hallingdal25.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Hallingdal/hallingdal56.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Setesdal/setesdalfamile3.jpg

[Pyramidologist]

I got that idea when I was classified as Keltic-Nordid and was told that high cheek bones, accompanied by my nose and jaw structure, were a feature of the Nordids and reminicsent of my Norse heritage.

Don't trust internet-anthropologists, you need proper anthropological sources from real scientists.


If you think blonde hair and blue eyes makes you Norse then you're an idiot. And I'm not in that "majority". I have dark blonde hair and blue eyes, mate. Being blonde and having blue eyes doesn't make you any more Norse than the next person.

Blonde hair and blue eyes are the sole Nordid markers.

A Nordid is just a depigmentated Med. So it is only fair hair, light eyes and paler skin which are what distinguishes the Nordid/Nordic subrace...


I know a good majority of people from Sweden who have hazel eyes and brown hair, the same goes for my Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic friends. Guess none of them are Norse, eh? :icon_rolleyes:

Then they aren't Nordid.


Trust me mate. You don't want to argue about this with me.
I'm told you've never been to Scotland, so you can't really make an assumption like that.
I spent hours tracing my family heritage, so I'm not about to be told by some guy who thinks he knows everything that I'm wrong because he says so.

Do yourself a favour and come to Scotland.

I have said that the Norse population was very small, so obviously there are going to be some modern Scottish of Scandinavian extraction. The extreme minority though. Anyone claiming the average Scot is a Scandinavian, is a troll.

[Lumi]

I would ask for solid proof of your claims.

[Pyramidologist]

I would ask for solid proof of your claims.

Pigmentation surveys and anthropological research has revealed the majority of British are medium brown or dark brown haired and mixed eyed.

See my thread -

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=688820

The Indo-European (Norse, Saxon) admixture in British is minimal.

If you think the average Scot or English descends from Nordid Vikings, why are they not light eyed or blonde?

[Pallantides]

The Vikings were definitely not all Nordids...


Some Swedish Viking and early medival reconstructions
http://cdn01.tv4.se/polopoly_fs/1.1636034.1273668703!image/2332835021.jpg_gen/derivatives/w450/2332835021.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4Yt59.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wgpni.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/a8MFJ.jpg

[Lumi]

Pigmentation surveys and anthropological research has revealed the majority of British are medium brown or dark brown haired and mixed eyed.

See my thread -

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=688820

The Indo-European (Norse, Saxon) admixture in British is minimal.

If you think the average Scot or English descends from Nordid Vikings, why are they not light eyed or blonde?

And again, you're a fool to think that the vikings were blonde and blue eyed. Not all of them were.
That thread is not proof.
I want solid, scientific proof that proves your claims.
If you can't even do that, then I'm just gonna write you off as a total nutjob who has nothing better to do with his time than whinge and insult anyone who doesn't agree with his crackpot claims.

[Argyll]

High cheekbones are fairly common in Scandinavia.:)
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe043a.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Norge/IngebriktBeitohaugen.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3402/embrikbeitohaugen.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Hallingdal/Hallingdal25.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Hallingdal/hallingdal56.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/Setesdal/setesdalfamile3.jpg

They're quite common in Britain too :)

A lot of people in the US like to credit having high cheek bones means you have native american ancestry. :rolleyes:

[Pyramidologist]

The Vikings were definitely not all Nordids...

Because a small proportion of them had non-Aryan admixture, such as Lappid. However the vast majority of Norse were of Aryan (Indo-European) extraction, and phenotypically Nordid blondes, and this shows up in pigmentation studies (Coon, Lundman etc). This is also proven by the written physical descriptions of the Norse we have, as well as the Saxons.

[Pallantides]

Because a small proportion of them had non-Aryan admixture, such as Lappid. However the vast majority of Norse were of Aryan (Indo-European) extraction, and phenotypically Nordid blondes, and this shows up in pigmentation studies (Coon, Lundman etc). This is also proven by the written physical descriptions of the Norse we have, as well as the Saxons.

Then how come none of the reconstruction of Viking skulls have come back pure Nordids but rather Cro-Magnid influenced. many of the Vikings that came to the British isles were from Western Norway and Nordids are not majority there.

[Lumi]

Because a small proportion of them had non-Aryan admixture, such as Lappid. However the vast majority of Norse were of Aryan (Indo-European) extraction, and phenotypically Nordid blondes, and this shows up in pigmentation studies (Coon, Lundman etc). This is also proven by the written physical descriptions of the Norse we have, as well as the Saxons.

Where is your so-called proof?
Seriously.

[Pyramidologist]

Where is your so-called proof?
Seriously.

Pigmentation studies. You can find them in Coon and Lundman, and all the sources i listed in my pigmentation essay i already linked tom such as Gray & Tocher. The studies show that people with blonde hair and light blue eyes are only generally confined to certain regions where the Indo-European Norse or Saxons had stronghold areas.

After analysing their survey results, Gray concluded that because of the lack of fair haired blondes in Scotland:

''we are driven to the conclusion that the pure Norse or Anglo-Saxon element in our population is by no means predominant.'' (p. 380).

The pigmentation studies showed that the regions most occupied by Picts, are the darkest haired -

''since in historical times, the Picts inhabited this region, this evidence points to the fact the Picts were a dark race'' (p. 384).

The anthropological evidence debunks the crap you are spouting that the majority of Scottish are Scandinavian.:tongue

[Grumpy Cat]

Here's an interesting article:

The Viking Invasions and Scotland's Nationality (http://www.scottish-history.com/origins3.shtml)

[Argyll]

As large as the viking invasions are described, there is very little in the way for their genes in Scotland. Several genetic maps show this.

[Osweo]

Don't make me get the maps out!!! :rage :p

Too late;
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9364/redrosenooo.gif
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9789/scotlangs.png

On the genetics front, there's plenty to show that the present day Scots and Northern and Eastern English have a big fat chunk of Norse and Danish ancestry. Nobody's going around trying to say that any of us here are pure Norse, that would be just laughable, but the genetics we do have is consistent with having absorbed this group of incomers. :shrug:

[rhiannon]

I would say Scotland is less than 10% Nordid.

You certainly don't have to be Nordid to have Norse traits;) Ask Pallantides, for example....he will show you a ton of folk in Norway who are 100% Norse, and not a one of them will be a Nordid:D

There is a heavy CM influence in much of Scandinavia.....CMs are not Nordids.

I do believe Pallantides is able to speak more on behalf of the Scandinavian people than you are, sir.

One such example:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Upper%20Paleolithic/Borreby/Norway_Nordic-Borreby.jpg

or

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/100813/Dolph-Lungren_240.jpg

[Argyll]

You certainly don't have to be Nordid to have Norse traits;) Ask Pallantides, for example....he will show you a ton of folk in Norway who are 100% Norse, and not a one of them will be a Nordid:D

There is a heavy CM influence in much of Scandinavia.....CMs are not Nordids.

Just like there are Celts who are Brunn and/or North Atlantid, but not Celtic Nordid.

[Heart of Oak]

It depends on location, the North East of Scotland is very Scandinavian in my limited experiace of my homeland...

[The Ripper]

I don't think Scotland, at the end of the day, is very Scandinavian at all. Or rather, they have much more in common with their fellow Britons.

[Raskolnikov]

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/100813/Dolph-Lungren_240.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3402/embrikbeitohaugen.jpg

My conception of Scandinavians is forever shattered... :coffee:

[Pyramidologist]

You certainly don't have to be Nordid to have Norse traits;) Ask Pallantides, for example....he will show you a ton of folk in Norway who are 100% Norse, and not a one of them will be a Nordid:D

There is a heavy CM influence in much of Scandinavia.....CMs are not Nordids.

I do believe Pallantides is able to speak more on behalf of the Scandinavian people than you are, sir.

One such example:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/anthropology/Caucasoid/Upper%20Paleolithic/Borreby/Norway_Nordic-Borreby.jpg

or

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/100813/Dolph-Lungren_240.jpg

The Norse were Indo-European who imposed their culture and language onto many of the indigenous Lappids, and many Lapps were absorbed.

Pallantides looks as if he has Lappid admixture. As i said, some Scandinavians are not Nordid in phenotype, however certianly the majority are. Blondism and light eyes are the highest in Scandinavia than any other region.

The Saxons and Norse, who were only numerically very small to arrive in Britain became the aristocrats or ruling elite over the indigenous Britons. They are described as being blonde haired and fair in all old texts. In contrast the Britons are described as swarthy and dark haired. The only exception is the ''Black (dubh) Danes'' who raided Ireland, and seem to have been a dark haired, olive skinned Wendish population.

[Argyll]

The Norse were Indo-European who imposed their culture and language onto many of the indigenous Lappids, and many Lapps were absorbed.

Pallantides looks as if he has Lappid admixture. As i said, some Scandinavians are not Nordid in phenotype, however certianly the majority are. Blondism and light eyes are the highest in Scandinavia than any other region.

The Saxons and Norse, who were only numerically very small to arrive in Britain became the aristocrats or ruling elite over the indigenous Britons. They are described as being blonde haired and fair in all old texts. In contrast the Britons are described as swarthy and dark haired. The only exception is the ''Black (dubh) Danes'' who raided Ireland, and seem to have been a dark haired, olive skinned Wendish population.

Then how do you explain blonde haired Celts?

[Pallantides]

As i said, some Scandinavians are not Nordid in phenotype, however certianly the majority are.

There is a large portion of them here, but the majority of Norwegians for example are not Nordids.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16460&page=38



Blondism and light eyes are the highest in Scandinavia than any other region.


It's higher in Finland and Estonia.

[Argyll]

Don't make me get the maps out!!! :rage :p

Too late;
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9364/redrosenooo.gif
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9789/scotlangs.png

On the genetics front, there's plenty to show that the present day Scots and Northern and Eastern English have a big fat chunk of Norse and Danish ancestry. Nobody's going around trying to say that any of us here are pure Norse, that would be just laughable, but the genetics we do have is consistent with having absorbed this group of incomers. :shrug:

Well, here are some genetics that show more Celtic DNA dominance in the Isles:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=345&pictureid=3437

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=345&pictureid=3438

[Pallantides]

http://i56.tinypic.com/elefeu.png

[Pyramidologist]

Then how do you explain blonde haired Celts?

''Celts'' are largely a 17th-19th century invention by romanticists.

The Celtic invention has been deconstructed in two recent sceptical publications: The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention by Simon James (1999), and The Celts: Origins, Myths and Inventions by John Collis (2003).

[Allenson]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9789/scotlangs.png


Hey, what's this map and where did you get it?

Blue=Scandinavian
Green=Gael
Red=Pict (my y-chrom)
Yello=Angle

?

We Picts got the ol' squeeze-play. ;)

[Hevneren]

I find this discussion about who's more Nordid and what the Scots are rather pointless. Perhaps some of my ancestors and some of the ancestors of a Scot met at one time, but that's the past and not the present. What matters is what Scots identify themselves as today, and I don't think they need anyone telling them who they are.

Frankly, it never even occurred to me that Scots would identify as anything other than Scottish, regardless of any Norse presence in the past. Perhaps some Scots could tell me about how they identify themselves and if/why they want to be closer to Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I'd be interested to know more about the Scottish perspective on this issue, rather than people on an online forum arguing about who's blond and who isn't.

By the way, as an off-topic remark, I'd like to add that no matter what phenotype or hair colour an ethnic Norwegian is, he or she is still Norwegian, and no anthroplogy know-it-all can change that. Pallantides is just as Norwegian as I am, and I'm sick of the Nordid-obsessed anthro-geeks telling us natives who's native and who isn't.

[Guapo]

The Scandinavian input in Scotland is very underrated unfortunately.

[Heart of Oak]

I agree whole heartedly Scotland is Scotish mainly...

[Phil75231]

I can't believe this thread is still a going concern!

In the end, Scotland is Scotland; Norway is Norway; Iceland is Iceland; etc. you get the picture. At best, ancestry/relationships are an interesting academic exercise (and may I add, one I also find rather fascinating for its own sake). In the end, though, what matters is what is good for the individuals themselves and how they are contributing to their local, national, and the global well-being.

[Graham]

I find this discussion about who's more Nordid and what the Scots are rather pointless. Perhaps some of my ancestors and some of the ancestors of a Scot met at one time, but that's the past and not the present. What matters is what Scots identify themselves as today, and I don't think they need anyone telling them who they are.

Frankly, it never even occurred to me that Scots would identify as anything other than Scottish, regardless of any Norse presence in the past. Perhaps some Scots could tell me about how they identify themselves and if/why they want to be closer to Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I'd be interested to know more about the Scottish perspective on this issue, rather than people on an online forum arguing about who's blond and who isn't.

Can't speak for the other Scots.

For me, being closer to the Scandinavian countries, is for economical reasons and for trade. A good template to copy in some ways.

Culturally, I feel we're closest to the Irish and Northern English.

[Pyramidologist]

Y-DNA and Mt-DNA have no relation to phenotype. Those genetic studies are really irrelevant.

[Pallantides]

Those genetic studies are really irrelevant.

I'd say Autosomal DNA studies are relevant though.

[Raskolnikov]

There is a large portion of them here, but the majority of Norwegians for example are not Nordids.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16460&page=38




It's higher in Finland and Estonia.
People like this are:
http://i.imgur.com/O0I1W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CxuXi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fWly3.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ybROl.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/iJrtf.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/717XT.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/d6hdx.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/insFo.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/M3lzS.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/XptxY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/YPIDF.jpg
(brachycephal-mixed)

Brunettes, same facial features:
http://i.imgur.com/KRLAB.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/DQZQM.jpg
(right)

http://i.imgur.com/qF3fo.jpg
A few here.

Then you have your blond brachycephals:
http://i.imgur.com/LNtaZ.jpg

Majority? I don't know. Would seem to be many people, codominant with the brachycephals. If Nordicists exaggerated it, I think modern internet posters underrate it.

[Pallantides]

Very few of those look pure "Nordid" in the strictest definition. Of course on the other hand they all look Nordic.


http://i.imgur.com/DQZQM.jpg
(right)



That guy was classified as Dinarid by some people though.



I'm just not an internet poster, I happen to be a Norwegian and I know very well the varity of this Nation:)
http://i.imgur.com/OaK4x.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/i6JPi.jpg

[Raskolnikov]

Very few of those look pure "Nordid" in the strictest definition. Of course on the other hand they all look Nordic. They'd be Nordid or Nordic, it doesn't make a difference:


Nor·dic (nôrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifdhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifk)adj.1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Scandinavia or its peoples, languages, or cultures.
2. Of or relating to a human physical type exemplified by the tall, narrow-headed, light-skinned, blond-haired peoples of Scandinavia. Not in scientific use.
3. Sports Of or relating to ski competition featuring ski jumping and cross-country racing.

n.1. A native or inhabitant of Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, or Finland.
2. A person of the Nordic physical type. Not in scientific use.



I'm just not an internet poster, I happen to be a Norwegian and I know very well the varity of this Nation:)Perhaps not by sight but by the conception of the definition which is exaggerated towards hyperleptoprosopic variants:
http://i.imgur.com/insFo.jpg
If everyone with a broader face than that is a 'CM' then we have a problematic definition.

[Pyramidologist]

^ The majority of Norwegians are Nordid. I really don't care about cherry picked photos.


The Norwegians, as a whole, are tall by absolute standards, and blond, with moderate body proportions which include relatively long legs

- Coon (1939)

Though yes, there are Borreby/CM types and Lappids. Of course there are, but they are the minority. It is the exact reverse in the rest of Europe, where Nordids are the minority, but more swarthy pre-Indo-European types the majority.

[Pallantides]

Not in scientific use. Exactly it's psuedo-science.



Nordic adj. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Scandinavia or its peoples, languages, or cultures.

Right on the money. I'm Nordic, my parents are Norwegian and so were my grandparents and their parents(with expection of my maternal grandmother's paternal grandfather who was a Swede) and so on, thus I'm Nordic but I'm not a "Nordid".



^ The majority of Norwegians are Nordid. I really don't care about cherry picked photos.


Lol if you think pictures of large crowds of Norwegians, sports teams, school pictures etc are cherry picked you truly are hopeless.
Anyway you are English and I'm a Norwegian, so I think I have a far better first hand experience than you have...

[Hevneren]

^ The majority of Norwegians are Nordid. I really don't care about cherry picked photos.

How would you know, Englishman? Don't tell us natives who we are or are not.

[Pyramidologist]

How would you know, Englishman? Don't tell us natives who we are or are not.



Lol if you think pictures of large crowds of Norwegians, sports teams, school pictures etc are cherry picked you truly are hopeless.
Anyway you are English and I'm a Norwegian, so I think I have a far better first hand experience than you have...

Unlike you simpletons, i quote from proper anthropological sources. Coon, Lundman and so forth.

You two are bedroom or internet scientists...

You can believe what you want. It really doesn't change the anthropological facts.

[Pallantides]

Our sources are reality, both me and Hevneren are native Norwegians.

[Pyramidologist]

Our sources are reality, both me and Hevneren are native Norwegians.

You aren't a valid source, nor am i. You need anthropological literature and studies. Picture spams are irrelevant, i can resort to them.

What's funny is that the average Brit i have encountered is obsessed to be Nordid out of self-hatred, while most Scandinavians who are Nordid want to instead claim Scandinavia is not majority blonde or Nordid but darker.

People really need to stop the self-hatred.

[Hevneren]

You aren't a valid source, nor am i. You need anthropological literature and studies. Picture spams are irrelevant, i can resort to them.

What's funny is that the average Brit i have encountered is obsessed to be Nordid out of self-hatred, while most Scandinavians who are Nordid want to instead claim Scandinavia is not majority blonde or Nordid but darker.

People really need to stop the self-hatred.

I live here and I know what my people look like. Same with Pallantides. As for self-hatred, you have no idea what you're talking about. I couldn't care less about what phenotype I am. Save your couch psychiatry for someone else.

[Pyramidologist]

Our sources are reality, both me and Hevneren are native Norwegians.

Please give me a breakdown of the racial makeup of Norway in your view. What exactly do you believe? that CM types are higher the population?

[Pyramidologist]

I live here and I know what my people look like. Same with Pallantides. As for self-hatred, you have no idea what you're talking about. I couldn't care less about what phenotype I am. Save your couch psychiatry for someone else.

do what i have asked Pallantides, give me a breakdown of the racial makeup of Norway in your view.

[Hevneren]

do what i have asked Pallantides, give me a breakdown of the racial makeup of Norway in your view.

Wrong thread.

[rhiannon]

^ The majority of Norwegians are Nordid. I really don't care about cherry picked photos.


Nope.
Look at the SNPA portion of Apricity.....you will see that TRØNDERS are not pure Nordids....but a Nordid/CM hybrid:D Pretty much the only pure Nordids you keep referring to are the Halstatt variety....and THOSE are only majority in Sweden.....no place else are they majority.

From this website:http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html
Estimated Racial Composition and Nordish Percentage of Indigenous European Populations:

Sweden = 70% Hallstatt Nordic (Carleton Coon described Sweden as a refuge area for the classic Nordic race), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest coastal region), 10% Fälish (most common in Dalarna [Kopparberg] and the southwest coastal region), 5% Trønder (most common near the central Norwegian border), 5% East Baltic = 100% Nordish (95% central and 5% periphery types)

Norway = 45% Trønder (most common in the west), 30% Hallstatt Nordic (most common in the southeast area around Oslo), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest), 7% Fälish (most common in the south), 5% East Baltic (most common in the far north), 3% Palaeo-Atlantid (found in western coastal areas) = 100% Nordish (92% central and 8% periphery types)

Denmark = 40% Borreby, 30% Fälish, 20% Hallstatt Nordic, 5% Anglo-Saxon, 5% East Baltic = 100% Nordish (95% central and 5% periphery types)Iceland = 60% Trønder, 22% Borreby, 15% Brünn, 3% Palaeo-Atlantid = 100% Nordish (97% central and 3% periphery types)

[Pallantides]

K12b spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0)


British Isles

British_D(N=8):

Gedrosia - 11.3%
Siberian - 0%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 43.5%
North_European - 43.6%
South_Asian - 0%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 0.3%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 1.3%
Sub_Saharan - 0%


Cornwall 1KG(N=28):

Gedrosia - 11.4%
Siberian - 0%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 43.8%
North_European - 42.8%
South_Asian - 0%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 0%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 2%
Sub_Saharan - 0%


English_D(N=10):

Gedrosia - 10.6%
Siberian - 0%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 41.5%
North_European - 44.5%
South_Asian - 0%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 0.1%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 3.1%
Sub_Saharan - 0%


Irish_D(N=14):

Gedrosia - 11.9%
Siberian - 0%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 42.7%
North_European - 45.1%
South_Asian - 0%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 0%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 0.2%
Sub_Saharan - 0%


Scandinavia and Finland

Norwegian_D(N=10):

Gedrosia - 8.2%
Siberian - 1%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 36%
North_European - 54.7%
South_Asian - 0%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 0%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 0.1%
Sub_Saharan - 0%


Swedish_D(N=11):

Gedrosia - 7.7%
Siberian - 0.6%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 32.9%
North_European - 56.8%
South_Asian - 0%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 0.8%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 1.2%
Sub_Saharan - 0%


Finnish_D(N=14):

Gedrosia - 0.3%
Siberian - 6.7%
Northwest_African - 0%
Southeast_Asian - 0%
Atlantic_Med - 13.4%
North_European - 75.5%
South_Asian - 0.2%
East_African - 0%
Southwest_Asian - 2.6%
East_Asian - 0%
Caucasus - 1.3%
Sub_Saharan - 0%

[Pallantides]

I would not trust old school anthroplogists very much though, there was a lot of bias and competition for the "Nordic master race" in those times.


Also this Richard McCulloch and his numbers are not really reliable...

[Pyramidologist]

Nope.
Look at the SNPA portion of Apricity.....you will see that TRØNDERS are not pure Nordids....but a Nordid/CM hybrid:D Pretty much the only pure Nordids you keep referring to are the Halstatt variety....and THOSE are only majority in Sweden.....no place else are they majority.

From this website:http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html
Estimated Racial Composition and Nordish Percentage of Indigenous European Populations:

Sweden = 70% Hallstatt Nordic (Carleton Coon described Sweden as a refuge area for the classic Nordic race), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest coastal region), 10% Fälish (most common in Dalarna [Kopparberg] and the southwest coastal region), 5% Trønder (most common near the central Norwegian border), 5% East Baltic = 100% Nordish (95% central and 5% periphery types)

Norway = 45% Trønder (most common in the west), 30% Hallstatt Nordic (most common in the southeast area around Oslo), 10% Borreby (most common in the southwest), 7% Fälish (most common in the south), 5% East Baltic (most common in the far north), 3% Palaeo-Atlantid (found in western coastal areas) = 100% Nordish (92% central and 8% periphery types)

Denmark = 40% Borreby, 30% Fälish, 20% Hallstatt Nordic, 5% Anglo-Saxon, 5% East Baltic = 100% Nordish (95% central and 5% periphery types)Iceland = 60% Trønder, 22% Borreby, 15% Brünn, 3% Palaeo-Atlantid = 100% Nordish (97% central and 3% periphery types)

Richard McCulloch is not an anthropologist. He has no credentials. His view on the racial makeup of Europe is laughable. He is another nutbag who thinks Nordids are the most dominant racial type in Britain, despite the fact blonde hair and and blue eyes in these isles are the smallest minority. Blonde hair in Wales and Cornwall (south-west England) runs as low as 5%.

[Lumi]

Richard McCulloch is not an anthropologist. He has no credentials. His view on the racial makeup of Europe is laughable. He is another nutbag who thinks Nordids are the most dominant racial type in Britain, despite the fact blonde hair and and blue eyes in these isles are the smallest minority. Blonde hair in Wales and Cornwall (south-west England) runs as low as 5%.

You realise that the reason why there are no blonde haired and blue eyed people in Scotland is because of the Celts. That's why there's a large majority of us with red hair and not blonde.
And, again, not all Vikings were blonde.
You, Sir, are laughable.
You forget that we Scots were invaded by the Celts, the Vikings, the Romans AND the English, and a lot of women were subjected to sexual assault by the soldiers of these races. The romans weren't blonde, nor were the English, so is it any bloody wonder Scotland doesn't have primarliy blonde people?

You had better not discredit history by saying those invasions never happened, else I'll come down there and introduce you to my Doc Martens.

[Argyll]

You realise that the reason why there are no blonde haired and blue eyed people in Scotland is because of the Celts. That's why there's a large majority of us with red hair and not blonde.
And, again, not all Vikings were blonde.
You, Sir, are laughable.
You forget that we Scots were invaded by the Celts, the Vikings, the Romans AND the English, and a lot of women were subjected to sexual assault by the soldiers of these races. The romans weren't blonde, nor were the English, so is it any bloody wonder Scotland doesn't have primarliy blonde people?

You had better not discredit history by saying those invasions never happened, else I'll come down there and introduce you to my Doc Martens.

Celts had blonde hair and blue eyes.

[Pyramidologist]

^ There were no Celts in Britain, only Celtic speakers. In phenotype they were short and swarthy of the Ibero-Insular (Iberian) Med type.

[Argyll]

^ There were no Celts in Britain, only Celtic speakers. In phenotype they were short and swarthy of the Ibero-Insular (Iberian) Med type.

lol

Then explain to me why Queen Boadiccea is described as tall, fierce, and having long red hair? In fact, why aren't all British people short and swarthy?

This is how one person describes Boadiccea's appearance:



She had knee length red hair, carried a spear, wore a tartan patterned dress, had a cloak fastened with a brooch, and wore a gold medallion around her neck.

You seriously need to do actual research and put down your insane theories. No one else believed them. Do you want to know why? Because evidence in the British Isles themselves, from unearthed remains, architecture, even the Britons today are a living testament as to how foolish those theories are.

[Lumi]

Celts had blonde hair and blue eyes.

I was told otherwise by my History teacher.


^ There were no Celts in Britain, only Celtic speakers. In phenotype they were short and swarthy of the Ibero-Insular (Iberian) Med type.

I again ask you for proof. That being said, I'm still waiting for proof that says we're all descended from the Picts.
:coffee:

[Pallantides]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap1.jpg

[Pyramidologist]

I again ask you for proof. That being said, I'm still waiting for proof that says we're all descended from the Picts.
:coffee:

The Celts of Ireland and Britain were called Black Celts. Its because they were of Iberian extraction, and swarthy. They merely had adopted the Celtic Indo-European language from the continent before moving into Britain.

''These are the Iberians and "black Celts" of Western Europe, and the dark- complexioned white people of the shores of the Mediterranean, Western Asia, and Persia''

...

''I believe it is this Iberian blood which is the source of the so-called Black Celts in Ireland''

- Thomas Huxley

[Argyll]

I was told otherwise by my History teacher.:

Scottish people are Gaelo-Pictish. About the hair- Greek and Roman historians noted their fair hair. They even noted that some who didn't have fair hair would was it in lime or lemon wash to make it fair.

[StonyArabia]

Unlike you simpletons, i quote from proper anthropological sources. Coon, Lundman and so forth.

You two are bedroom or internet scientists...

You can believe what you want. It really doesn't change the anthropological facts.

No offence but Coon was outdated made idiotic claims of Nordics being present in Arabia lol. The irony of this that the climate is not suited for Nordic like people. Anyways Coon also exaggerated the blondism in the Riffian Berbers of Morocco, today he is barely taken seriously. Coon and the other fellows might have done some accurate statments but in all and all they remained to be false scientist with their own particular agenda's.

[Lumi]

The Celts of Ireland and Britain were called Black Celts. Its because they were of Iberian extraction, and swarthy. They merely had adopted the Celtic Indo-European language from the continent before moving into Britain.

''These are the Iberians and "black Celts" of Western Europe, and the dark- complexioned white people of the shores of the Mediterranean, Western Asia, and Persia''

...

''I believe it is this Iberian blood which is the source of the so-called Black Celts in Ireland''

- Thomas Huxley

Sources, please.
:coffee:

[Pallantides]

If the British were originally Iberians, how come they are now genetically closer to Scandinavians than they are any of the Iberian populations?


I mean for this theory to hold water we must accept that they have mixed heavily with Norse or it makes no sense...:D

[Pyramidologist]

If the British were originally Iberians, how come they are now genetically closer to Scandinavians than they are any of the Iberian populations?


I mean for this theory to hold water we must accept that they have mixed heavily with Norse or it makes no sense...:D

I mean Iberian, as in Gracile Med, the Ibero-insular phenotype. Not Iberian, as in solely from Iberia.

Anyway, according to Sykes (Blood of the Isles, 2006),-

*The genetic makeup of Britain and Ireland is overwhelmingly what it has been since the Neolithic period and to a very considerable extent since the Mesolithic period.

* The Picts were not a separate people: the genetic makeup of the formerly Pictish areas of Scotland shows no significant differences from the general profile of the rest of Britain.

* The Anglo-Saxons are supposed, by some, to have made a substantial contribution to the genetic makeup of England, but in Sykes's opinion it was under 20 percent of the total, even in southern England.

*The Vikings (Danes and Norwegians) only made a genetic contribution in limited concentrated areas, not as a whole (for example eastern parts of England, or the old Danelaw).

*The Norman contribution was extremely small, on the order of 2 percent.

There is no data clustering British to Scandinavia, quite the opposite.

[Pallantides]

Sykes and Oppenheimer are extremly outdated and few take them seriously anymore. Genetics have come a long way since then.


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap1.jpg

[Pyramidologist]

lol

Then explain to me why Queen Boadiccea is described as tall, fierce, and having long red hair? In fact, why aren't all British people short and swarthy?

This is how one person describes Boadiccea's appearance:



You seriously need to do actual research and put down your insane theories. No one else believed them. Do you want to know why? Because evidence in the British Isles themselves, from unearthed remains, architecture, even the Britons today are a living testament as to how foolish those theories are.

Boudicca wasn't Celtic.

[Pyramidologist]

Sykes and Oppenheimer are extremly outdated and few take them seriously anymore. Genetics have come a long way since then.


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap1.jpg

This map clusters Britain with Belgium, Netherlands and France.

[Lumi]

Boudicca wasn't Celtic.

And yet you still don't answer the question presented to you.
Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

[rhiannon]

Boudicca wasn't Celtic.

Well then, just what was she?

Celts, like the Germanics, came in more than one hue. There were blonde, ginger, brunette, and black-haired Celts.

What is your obsession with blondes and Nordids? Go back to some Nordicist forum that is better suited to your crazy ideas:rolleyes:

There are tons of CM types who are also blonde, sir. Frankly, Nordids aren't all that, anyway.

[Rødskjegg]

^ The majority of Norwegians are Nordid. I really don't care about cherry picked photos.



- Coon (1939)

Though yes, there are Borreby/CM types and Lappids. Of course there are, but they are the minority. It is the exact reverse in the rest of Europe, where Nordids are the minority, but more swarthy pre-Indo-European types the majority.

Have you been to Norway? If not, you really should stop posting about Pallantides, Hevneren, and my country.

[Hevneren]

Well then, just what was she?

Celts, like the Germanics, came in more than one hue. There were blonde, ginger, brunette, and black-haired Celts.

What is your obsession with blondes and Nordids? Go back to some Nordicist forum that is better suited to your crazy ideas:rolleyes:

There are tons of CM types who are also blonde, sir. Frankly, Nordids aren't all that, anyway.

Nordids are human beings like everyone else. I think a certain Englishman is projecting when he's going on about self-hatred here, seeing as he's listed himself as Pictish and is going on about how Celtic Scotland is, while obsessing over Nordids and blondness. :confused:

I'm over 6 foot tall, blue eyed and blond, but I don't go on and on about my blondness and being a Nordic superman. Frankly, I don't even care much about my own phenotype, as long as I'm Norwegian. I've been told I'm Nordid/CM (Borreby) mix, which is fine by me. :shrug:

[Hevneren]

Have you been to Norway? If not, you really should stop posting about Pallantides, Hevneren, and my country.

It seems like you can't escape the know-it-alls, even if you stop posting in "certain" forums. ;)

[rhiannon]

Nordids are human beings like everyone else. I think a certain Englishman is projecting when he's going on about self-hatred here, seeing as he's listed himself as Pictish and is going on about how Celtic Scotland is, while obsessing over Nordids and blondness. :confused:

I'm over 6 foot tall, blue eyed and blond, but I don't go on and on about my blondness and being a Nordic superman. Frankly, I don't even care much about my own phenotype, as long as I'm Norwegian. I've been told I'm Nordid/CM (Borreby) mix, which is fine by me. :shrug:

I like Nordid men:D The women...not so much...although there are some beautiful Nordid females as well. It bothers me to see Nordids cracked up to be above and beyond all other Euro subraces, however....so when crazy Nordicists start carrying on about them, it is my nature to be devils' advocate.

Oh, and Nordid/CM mixes are.....:thumb001::thumb001::thumb001:

Honestly, though....there is beauty in all subraces....and races as well, quite frankly.

[Pallantides]

It seems according to some anthro-race board forumites that me and my brother belong to different races. :D

[Peyrol]

You realise that the reason why there are no blonde haired and blue eyed people in Scotland is because of the Celts. That's why there's a large majority of us with red hair and not blonde.
And, again, not all Vikings were blonde.
You, Sir, are laughable.
You forget that we Scots were invaded by the Celts, the Vikings, the Romans AND the English, and a lot of women were subjected to sexual assault by the soldiers of these races. The romans weren't blonde, nor were the English, so is it any bloody wonder Scotland doesn't have primarliy blonde people?

You had better not discredit history by saying those invasions never happened, else I'll come down there and introduce you to my Doc Martens.

"Roman" (for roman i think you mean "mediterranean/dinarid" people) genetic input in Southern Scotland is low and trascurable; the land was under roman rule only from 142 to 208 A.D. (when emperor Antonino Pio expanded roman influence over the Adrian Wall, penetrating into scottish land and building the "Vallus Antonini" (Antonine Wall) ).

Anyway, the fact that majority of celtic populations weren't blonde-blue eyed, would explain also because "swarthy" phenotype it's also prevalent in modern Wales/Isle of Man/etc.

[Hevneren]

It seems according to some anthro-race board forumites that me and my brother belong to different races. :D

Does that include this brotha from another motha?
http://johnnygoodtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/vanilla_ice.jpg

[Pyramidologist]

Well then, just what was she?

Celts, like the Germanics, came in more than one hue. There were blonde, ginger, brunette, and black-haired Celts.

What is your obsession with blondes and Nordids? Go back to some Nordicist forum that is better suited to your crazy ideas:rolleyes:

There are tons of CM types who are also blonde, sir. Frankly, Nordids aren't all that, anyway.

Celts in Britain never existed. Only Celtic speakers. This was proven by anthropologists in the 19th century such as Broca, Thurnam, Beddoe and Ripley, who analysed skeletal remains in Celtic speaking areas. The majority were in fact revealed to be of the short statured, dark affiliated Iberian type, some with Alpine (brachycephalic) admixture (especially in continental Europe) not Nordids. When this was published, it shocked many. People wrongly assumed for so long that ancient Celtic speakers were blonde tall Nordids, but it turned out they were short and dark.

Dr. Beddoe describes the Celtic speakers of Scotland: "The head and face are long, and rather narrow, the skull base rather narrow, the brow and occiput prominent." Hair mostly "dark brown" to "brownish black" and even "coal-black". The historical Celtic speakers of Scotland were Iberians, and dark haired. Hence their nickname ''Black Celts'', but they were not real Celts or Celts 'proper', they just spoke the language.

The confusion about what the majority of Celtic speakers looked liked has arised through the popular misconception that because a people spoke a dialect of the same group of languages they were necessarily of the same race or subrace. A complete fallacy, which sadly has deluded many as it did hundred of years ago. The Celts 'proper' who introduced the IE language to the Iberians, were certianly Nordid, but they were numerically very small and according to classical texts only confined to a certain region of Gaul.

An article worth reading:

Did the ancient Celts really exist?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/historical-notes-did-the-ancient-celts-really-exist-1045099.html

So who was Boudicca?

Her fairer hair and aristocratic origin point to the fact she was certianly of Indo-European (Aryan) extraction. There are numerous different theories. Waddell (1924) suggested most likely she was a remnant noble of Trojan or Hittite blood.

[Pyramidologist]

Nordids are human beings like everyone else. I think a certain Englishman is projecting when he's going on about self-hatred here, seeing as he's listed himself as Pictish and is going on about how Celtic Scotland is, while obsessing over Nordids and blondness. :confused:

I'm over 6 foot tall, blue eyed and blond, but I don't go on and on about my blondness and being a Nordic superman. Frankly, I don't even care much about my own phenotype, as long as I'm Norwegian. I've been told I'm Nordid/CM (Borreby) mix, which is fine by me. :shrug:

I'm interested in hair colour as it is an Indo-European marker. However modern Nordid blondes are not ethnically Indo-European (the noble Arya) they just have retained the closest to the original Aryan phenotype.

[Pyramidologist]

Honestly, though....there is beauty in all subraces....and races as well, quite frankly.

You were disproven on this issue in the other thread.

[Argyll]

Why isn't everyone in the British Isles a swarthy pigmy?

[billErobreren]

Why isn't everyone in the British Isles a swarthy pigmy?

Well to be fair the people of Portugal, Spain & Southern France(Where these Celtic/Iberian hybrids lived) aren't all swarthy pygmy

[Lumi]

Celts in Britain never existed. Only Celtic speakers. This was proven by anthropologists in the 19th century such as Broca, Thurnam, Beddoe and Ripley, who analysed skeletal remains in Celtic speaking areas. The majority were in fact revealed to be of the short statured, dark affiliated Iberian type, some with Alpine (brachycephalic) admixture (especially in continental Europe) not Nordids. When this was published, it shocked many. People wrongly assumed for so long that ancient Celtic speakers were blonde tall Nordids, but it turned out they were short and dark.

Dr. Beddoe describes the Celtic speakers of Scotland: "The head and face are long, and rather narrow, the skull base rather narrow, the brow and occiput prominent." Hair mostly "dark brown" to "brownish black" and even "coal-black". The historical Celtic speakers of Scotland were Iberians, and dark haired. Hence their nickname ''Black Celts'', but they were not real Celts or Celts 'proper', they just spoke the language.

The confusion about what the majority of Celtic speakers looked liked has arised through the popular misconception that because a people spoke a dialect of the same group of languages they were necessarily of the same race or subrace. A complete fallacy, which sadly has deluded many as it did hundred of years ago. The Celts 'proper' who introduced the IE language to the Iberians, were certianly Nordid, but they were numerically very small and according to classical texts only confined to a certain region of Gaul.

An article worth reading:

Did the ancient Celts really exist?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/historical-notes-did-the-ancient-celts-really-exist-1045099.html

So who was Boudicca?

Her fairer hair and aristocratic origin point to the fact she was certianly of Indo-European (Aryan) extraction. There are numerous different theories. Waddell (1924) suggested most likely she was a remnant noble of Trojan or Hittite blood.

The Independant? You use the Independant as a source?
Why don't you just Foxtrot Oscar? Seriously.

There's plenty of archeological evidence to support the fact that the Celts invaded. Same way how there's archeological evidence to support the fact that the Vikings, the Romans and the English invaded.
So, use more credible sources please.

[Pyramidologist]

Why isn't everyone in the British Isles a swarthy pigmy?

Diet change and partial depigmentation which has occurred. However you can still find close to the original phenotype in parts of Britain. In Scotland it's known as the ''old black breed'' or ''small dark highlander''.

Campbell's Popular tales of the West Highlands (Vol. i, p. 144) contains a physical description of one of these small swarthy people of the highlands:

''Her hair was as black as night, and her clear dark eyes glittered through the peat smoke. Her complexion was dark.''

You can still find them, they are about 5 ft.

[Pyramidologist]

The Independant? You use the Independant as a source?
Why don't you just Foxtrot Oscar? Seriously.

There's plenty of archeological evidence to support the fact that the Celts invaded. Same way how there's archeological evidence to support the fact that the Vikings, the Romans and the English invaded.
So, use more credible sources please.

Don't waste my time.

[Osweo]

The only exception is the ''Black (dubh) Danes'' who raided Ireland, and seem to have been a dark haired, olive skinned Wendish population.
Yep, that's right, folks. :fponder:

I remember some of their names. Halfdan, Ulfr and Ormr. Yep. THey're Polish names, them... :mmmm:

I'm sure you've seen many olive skinned swarthy Pomorian Slavs in your extensive fieldwork in Vorpommern and Mecklenburg.... :yawn:


Hey, what's this map and where did you get it?
It's a map that sort of bundles up language, substrate ethnic ancestry and historical politics. :p

I got it off my hard drive, which had got it from Paint, which had got it from my mind. :D


Blue=Scandinavian
Green=Gael
Red=Pict (my y-chrom)
Yello=Angle
That's right, Doggerlander. :thumb001:

It always strikes me as absurd that the Bernicians are called 'Angles' in a Scottish History context, and never 'English' which is undoubtedly what they actually called and considered themselves... :coffee:

We Picts got the ol' squeeze-play. ;)
Commisserations!

(Though maybe it was just RE-germanicisation... ;) )

Scottish people are Gaelo-Pictish.
STOP talking about the 'Scottish people'. In the context you are referring to (that is, deep ancestral relations), this people has MAJOR regional differences.

Yes, local people in Perthshire are 'Gaelo-Pictish', but nobody ever called himself a Gael in Selkirkshire unless he was a foreign invader, terrorising or exploiting the locals.


Boudicca wasn't Celtic.
:clap:


There are numerous different theories. Waddell (1924) suggested most likely she was a remnant noble of Trojan or Hittite blood.
:bowlol:

You gotta luv this guy. Better than Bob Monkhouse.

Almost.

[Pallantides]

Billionare Petter Stordalen is a "swarthy pygmy"(ca. 165cm):p
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/446/446028/4460284/jpg/active/503x.jpg
http://magasin.bring.no/media/15025/petter-stordalen-front.jpg
http://www.horecanytt.no/cache/image/8749/5/petter-stordalen4-nett.jpg
http://www.horecanytt.no/cache/image/8747/4/petter-stordalen2-nett.jpg

[Peasant]

How would you know, Englishman? Don't tell us natives who we are or are not.

Not going to take the piss this time, because that Englishman knows nowt about anything.

[Pyramidologist]

Yep, that's right, folks. :fponder:

I remember some of their names. Halfdan, Ulfr and Ormr. Yep. THey're Polish names, them... :mmmm:

I'm sure you've seen many olive skinned swarthy Pomorian Slavs in your extensive fieldwork in Vorpommern and Mecklenburg.... :yawn:

old essay -

Thomas Willis Shore in his Origin of the Anglo Saxon Race (1906) has noted: ''The so-called black men of the Anglo-Saxon period probably included some of the darker Wendish people among them, immigrants or descendants of people of the same race as the ancestors of the Sorbs of Lausatia'' (p. 112). Furthermore Shore in his research also connected the ''Black Danes'' to the Wends, pages 113-114.

Anglo-Saxon sources reveal that the dark haired Wends settled in parts of England: Wendlebiri in Hertfordshire, Wendlebury in Oxfordshire and Wendlesclif in Worcestershire. Also in Berkshire, once existed a town called Wendlesore or Windlesore, now known as Windsor, home of Windsor Castle, one of the residences of the British Royal Family.

The anthropologist John Beddoe (1872, 1885) wrote of his discovery of a black haired, swarthy skinned, population on the Island of Møn (Moen) in Denmark. The so called ''Moen man'', Beddoe described as ''swarthy, his eyed dark and obliquely set, his hair dark, thick, and curly'' (quoted in Our Nationalities, 1880, by historian James Bonwick). According to Isaac Taylor in his Origin of the Aryans (1890) the dark haired Moen or Møn people, Beddoe discovered, were brachycephalic and can be identified as the ''Black Danes''.

The Wends inhabited areas closest to the Scandinavians and Germanics and were absorbed amongst them, however in Baltic Islands it appears they remained isolated. Most Slavs were fair haired and pale, however Coon (1939) has noted that a branch of them were dark haired. The pitch black hair of the Bohemian Slavs for example struck the traveller Ibrahim ibn Ya'qub in 965 AD and the Wends of the Baltic seem to also have been swarthy and dark haired. Therefore the Black Danes should be identified as Wends from Møn or the surrounding Baltic. A migration of these Wends to the British Isles occurred as early as the 5th century AD, alongside the Anglo-Saxons.

:dielaughing:

[Lumi]

Don't waste my time.

GTFL, dude. Seriously.
I'm wasting your time? You're the one who refuses to post credible, unbiased sources to prove your point.
So if anyone's wasting anyone's time, you're wasting ours.

[Pyramidologist]

GTFL, dude. Seriously.
I'm wasting your time? You're the one who refuses to post credible, unbiased sources to prove your point.
So if anyone's wasting anyone's time, you're wasting ours.

Yes you are wasting my time. I know who you are, you gave away your Skadi account name and as i expected when i checked your account history there, i realised you left me abuse on the Skadi forum when i was a member there. Your initial post (excluding a brief intro) on this forum was also engaging me, and from there all you have done is posted ad hominem attacks, or insulting replies to me. You basically joined this forum to troll me. You've barely been a member here for one day, and here are the content of some of your posts:


Pyramidologist has an obsession with the Picts, it would appear. And spouting crap...[/


Yeah, because I'm really going to listen to a twirp like you


Fail.


Again. Fail.


Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

These are your immature responces to me, and yet i never in the slightest abused you or gave you a nasty comment in return. It's clear you simply despise me for my views (and on Skadi) and that you joined this forum to troll me. And for this reason you are a waste of time.

I've had to put you on my ignore.

I would also point out that you spammed the same ''where is your evidence'' 5or 6 times to further try and wind me up. This is despite the fact i cite many anthropologists. Its not my problem that you are too dumb to know who Ripley, Thurnam, Beddoe etc are. If you had the intelligence you would look up the authorities and sources i cite or quote from. However you aren't interested in the content i post, you joined here solely to post abuse at me.

[Argyll]

I believe she has made some good contributions.

[Argyll]

You do realise that many users on here are or were Skadi members, right? First you call me a troll, then her. Is everyone out to get you?

[Pyramidologist]

You do realise that many users on here are or were Skadi members, right? First you call me a troll, then her. Is everyone out to get you?

View my userpage for a list. Only 2 people currently in it. I then add them to my ignore list, so i will do so for you after.

You joined this forum to promote your homosexuality for a reaction. That's trollish. I've just seen a comment from you where you claim the average penis size is 6,3 from your own ''experience'' (from other men). You are utter filth.

[somerled]

old essay -

Thomas Willis Shore in his Origin of the Anglo Saxon Race (1906) has noted: ''The so-called black men of the Anglo-Saxon period probably included some of the darker Wendish people among them, immigrants or descendants of people of the same race as the ancestors of the Sorbs of Lausatia'' (p. 112). Furthermore Shore in his research also connected the ''Black Danes'' to the Wends, pages 113-114.

Anglo-Saxon sources reveal that the dark haired Wends settled in parts of England: Wendlebiri in Hertfordshire, Wendlebury in Oxfordshire and Wendlesclif in Worcestershire. Also in Berkshire, once existed a town called Wendlesore or Windlesore, now known as Windsor, home of Windsor Castle, one of the residences of the British Royal Family.

The anthropologist John Beddoe (1872, 1885) wrote of his discovery of a black haired, swarthy skinned, population on the Island of Møn (Moen) in Denmark. The so called ''Moen man'', Beddoe described as ''swarthy, his eyed dark and obliquely set, his hair dark, thick, and curly'' (quoted in Our Nationalities, 1880, by historian James Bonwick). According to Isaac Taylor in his Origin of the Aryans (1890) the dark haired Moen or Møn people, Beddoe discovered, were brachycephalic and can be identified as the ''Black Danes''.

The Wends inhabited areas closest to the Scandinavians and Germanics and were absorbed amongst them, however in Baltic Islands it appears they remained isolated. Most Slavs were fair haired and pale, however Coon (1939) has noted that a branch of them were dark haired. The pitch black hair of the Bohemian Slavs for example struck the traveller Ibrahim ibn Ya'qub in 965 AD and the Wends of the Baltic seem to also have been swarthy and dark haired. Therefore the Black Danes should be identified as Wends from Møn or the surrounding Baltic. A migration of these Wends to the British Isles occurred as early as the 5th century AD, alongside the Anglo-Saxons.

:dielaughing:


And yet a quick google shows Wendle can denote a more obvious Old English word.
The name of Windsor derives from Windlesore, or 'Winding Shores' where boats were pulled by windlass ('windles') up the river.
Why doesn't it surprise me that you leap to the most obscure and tenuous meaning.

[Argyll]

View my userpage for a list. Only 2 people currently in it. I then add them to my ignore list, so i will do so for you after.

You joined this forum to promote your homosexuality for a reaction. That's trollish. I've just seen a comment from you where you claim the average penis size is 6,3 from your own ''experience'' (from other men). You are utter filth.

lol? :D

[Randoor Kumar]

Diet change and partial depigmentation which has occurred. However you can still find close to the original phenotype in parts of Britain. In Scotland it's known as the ''old black breed'' or ''small dark highlander''.

Campbell's Popular tales of the West Highlands (Vol. i, p. 144) contains a physical description of one of these small swarthy people of the highlands:

''Her hair was as black as night, and her clear dark eyes glittered through the peat smoke. Her complexion was dark.''

You can still find them, they are about 5 ft.

Sorry to burst your bubble but my fathers parents were from the highlands and not one of them was dark. My grandfather was as blonde as you could get and my grandmother had red hair. The only person in my family who had dark hair was irish.

[Pyramidologist]

Sorry to burst your bubble but my fathers parents were from the highlands and not one of them was dark. My grandfather was as blonde as you could get and my grandmother had red hair. The only person in my family who had dark hair was irish.

Does the average Highlander have an Indian name?:coffee:

[Randoor Kumar]

Yes because everyone uses there real name on the internet. :rolleyes:

[Osweo]

Pyro's family are British Israelites, so his real name may well BE 'Pyramidologist'! :bowlol:

[Beorn]

Yes because everyone uses there real name on the internet. :rolleyes:

It is odd your random name being Paki sounding.

Just saying. :)

[Pyramidologist]

Sorry to burst your bubble but my fathers parents were from the highlands and not one of them was dark. My grandfather was as blonde as you could get and my grandmother had red hair. The only person in my family who had dark hair was irish.

The majority of highlanders are now medium brown haired and paler. They have since depigmentated. However in certain pockets you can still find the very swarthy original type. It's called the ''old black breed''. Check Ripley's Races of Europe (1899, pp. 302-303) for photos of this type, it's also associated with the surrounding isles.

[Randoor Kumar]

The majority of highlanders are now medium brown haired and paler..

So now you admit that the majority of highlanders are not swarthy. :rolleyes:

Hey Pyramidologist here is a true Pict for ya :thumb001:

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/ewan-mcgregor/ewan-mcgregor-20050422-36146.jpg

[somerled]

The majority of highlanders are now medium brown haired and paler. They have since depigmentated. However in certain pockets you can still find the very swarthy original type. It's called the ''old black breed''. Check Ripley's Races of Europe (1899, pp. 302-303) for photos of this type, it's also associated with the surrounding isles.

Depigmented since when?
We've already been over this and at least since Roman times the people of North Scotland were described as being predominately red-haired and large. There are a couple of obscure references to darker, smaller people but these seem to have been in the minority and there is no evidence for them ever being historically representative of the Scottish population as a whole.

[Pyramidologist]

So now you admit that the majority of highlanders are not swarthy. :rolleyes:

Never said they were. Perhaps you should learn to read instead of setting up strawman arguments. The ancient highlanders were dark, but many have since partially depigmentated hence we have the now recognised Atlantid phenotype most common in Britain - dark brown or medium brown hair, mixed eyes and lighter skinned. The Mediterranid component however is still higher. Blonde hair and light eyes are the small minority in Scotland. And you can still find in some pockets the ''old black breed'' or ''small dark highlander'', meaning those that never depigmentated.


Hey Pyramidologist here is a true Pict for ya :thumb001:

The most common Scottish phenotype today, is Atlantid, with a stronger Med component (hazel eyes as opposed to light-mixed) with dark brown or medium brown hair. There are also mixed CM types, but Nordids are the extreme minority.

Get a reality check. The average Scottish person is brown haired and hazel eyed. Not blonde and blue eyed. Blondism is really only limited to small areas where the Vikings had stronghold's.

Coon (1939) who studied surveys on Scottish pigmentation, concluded blonde hair in Scotland runs at only 11% in adults.

[Pyramidologist]

Depigmented since when?

They never fully depigmentated, only partially. And it was probably a slow process, starting several thousands of years back. That's how the Atlantid and North-Atlantid phenotype eventually formed, not through admixture between Nordids and Atlanto-Mediterraneans as some maintain. There was no large scale Nordid migration here in ancient times, so the idea the Atlantid phenotype was created by indigenous Meds mating on a large scale with later Nordid arrivals is not supported by any evidence.

The depigmentation of the indigenous swarthy Mediterranid types here is proven by the Irish ''blue-brown'' eye. It's a failed fully depigmentated eye, or only partially depigmentated blue with original dark brown shades all over it. I covered a post on this in another thread.


We've already been over this and at least since Roman times the people of North Scotland were described as being predominately red-haired and large. There are a couple of obscure references to darker, smaller people but these seem to have been in the minority and there is no evidence for them ever being historically representative of the Scottish population as a whole.

All you have is a scant quotation from Tacitus about the Caledonians. That's not representative of the Scottish population. Claudian describes the Picts as ''mauros'', meaning swarthy, dark. Many other sources were compiled by Skene and MacRitchie, the latter i am currently going through. The most interesting is by-names or place-names. Dubh or Moor (black or dark) appears in most Scottish family names, by-names and place names. It derives from the swarthy features of the founder of that clan, for example the Black Douglas. Also look up Black Morrow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Morrow

There are many more of such traditions and legends. I have a whole collection of them in MacRitchie.

Unfortuantly, scholarship has neglected these things, which has led to modern Afrocentrics distorting them to infer they refer to Negroes.

[rhiannon]

You were disproven on this issue in the other thread.

I disagree. You proved nothing. However, you are entitled to your opinion, of course.:)

[Hevneren]

This thread has veered a bit off topic. It went from Scottish identity to talks about mythical Aryan Nordic blond supermen. :confused:

There's no mythical "Aryan race". It's a 19th and early 20th century myth based on a misinterpretation of a cultural word meaning "the civilised". If there are any Aryans in the world, you'll most likely find them among Zoroaster-worshipers in Iran and the Indian subcontinent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).

This has nothing to do with Scots or Nordic peoples. The fact is that there was interbreeding centuries ago. Some Norse came as raiders and took women with them, while others settled down as farmers and traders, often marrying local women. The Scots even have the famous Somerled clan, which owes its name completely to Norse people.

[somerled]

They never fully depigmentated, only partially. And it was probably a slow process, starting several thousands of years back. That's how the Atlantid and North-Atlantid phenotype eventually formed, not through admixture between Nordids and Atlanto-Mediterraneans as some maintain. There was no large scale Nordid migration here in ancient times, so the idea the Atlantid phenotype was created by indigenous Meds mating on a large scale with later Nordid arrivals is not supported by any evidence.

How do explain the numerous Autosomal studies that show the British (including Scots) are genetically closely related to North Europeans. The SNP genetic distances are closer between Britain and the Nordid homelands (i.e. Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Denmark etc.) than the Mediterranean homelands (i.e. Spain, Portugal, Basques, Italy).
The genetic evidence shows that most of the Northern European populations (including the British) originated from central Europe/Balkans and were migrating in a North West direction ultimately from the Middle East. The Western fringe Iberian migration component was a minor one as reflected in the genetic evidence and phenotypes of the British.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles



All you have is a scant quotation from Tacitus about the Caledonians. That's not representative of the Scottish population. Claudian describes the Picts as ''mauros'', meaning swarthy, dark. Many other sources were compiled by Skene and MacRitchie, the latter i am currently going through. The most interesting is by-names or place-names. Dubh or Moor (black or dark) appears in most Scottish family names, by-names and place names. It derives from the swarthy features of the founder of that clan, for example the Black Douglas. Also look up Black Morrow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Morrow

There are many more of such traditions and legends. I have a whole collection of them in MacRitchie.

Unfortuantly, scholarship has neglected these things, which has led to modern Afrocentrics distorting them to infer they refer to Negroes.

Jordanes and Eumenius confirm Tacitus's description and all you have is a scant quotation from Claudian.
The current phenotype of the Scots doesn't support the short, swarthy claim. Do you seriously believe they depigmented and evolved into larger specimens in a mere 2000 years?
The Dubh or Moor name proves that the swarthy trait was relatively unique in Scotland. After all a name needs to be a unique identifier. In a community where the majority were swarthy or even a large minority were swarthy, it would be pointless to use such a common feature to differentiate.

[Argyll]

This thread has veered a bit off topic. It went from Scottish identity to talks about mythical Aryan Nordic blond supermen. :confused:

There's no mythical "Aryan race". It's a 19th and early 20th century myth based on a misinterpretation of a cultural word meaning "the civilised". If there are any Aryans in the world, you'll most likely find them among Zoroaster-worshipers in Iran and the Indian subcontinent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).

This has nothing to do with Scots or Nordic peoples. The fact is that there was interbreeding centuries ago. Some Norse came as raiders and took women with them, while others settled down as farmers and traders, often marrying local women. The Scots even have the famous Somerled clan, which owes its name completely to Norse people.

That's what happens to every thread he comes on. You should see what he did to my poll about tge Fey.

[Lumi]

This thread has veered a bit off topic. It went from Scottish identity to talks about mythical Aryan Nordic blond supermen. :confused:

There's no mythical "Aryan race". It's a 19th and early 20th century myth based on a misinterpretation of a cultural word meaning "the civilised". If there are any Aryans in the world, you'll most likely find them among Zoroaster-worshipers in Iran and the Indian subcontinent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).

This has nothing to do with Scots or Nordic peoples. The fact is that there was interbreeding centuries ago. Some Norse came as raiders and took women with them, while others settled down as farmers and traders, often marrying local women. The Scots even have the famous Somerled clan, which owes its name completely to Norse people.

I think my ancestor did that, settled down in Dingwall with a Scottish wife and ever since then the family name has pretty much stuck to Scotland.

[Pyramidologist]

How do explain the numerous Autosomal studies that show the British (including Scots) are genetically closely related to North Europeans. The SNP genetic distances are closer between Britain and the Nordid homelands (i.e. Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Denmark etc.) than the Mediterranean homelands (i.e. Spain, Portugal, Basques, Italy).
The genetic evidence shows that most of the Northern European populations (including the British) originated from central Europe/Balkans and were migrating in a North West direction ultimately from the Middle East. The Western fringe Iberian migration component was a minor one as reflected in the genetic evidence and phenotypes of the British.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles

You are just misrepresenting data. Northern Europeans cluster with Northern Europeans before Southern because they are a subset of the latter. It doesn't mean they are distinct, they just have less genetic diversity. You are then making the odd equation of Germany and the Netherlands to Nordid.

Autosomal studies cluster Britian first with Belgium and the Netherlands.


Jordanes and Eumenius confirm Tacitus's description and all you have is a scant quotation from Claudian.
The current phenotype of the Scots doesn't support the short, swarthy claim. Do you seriously believe they depigmented and evolved into larger specimens in a mere 2000 years?
The Dubh or Moor name proves that the swarthy trait was relatively unique in Scotland. After all a name needs to be a unique identifier. In a community where the majority were swarthy or even a large minority were swarthy, it would be pointless to use such a common feature to differentiate.

Tacitus description is only describing the Caledonians. I have far more sources, but it's clear i'm wasting my time with you, you aren't interested in truth or researching the sources i provide. Your mind is already made up, you live in a delusional cuckooland where you think all the Scots in antiquity were fair or red haired and tall. Just another self-hating Brit i presume who craves to be Nordid? Nothing could be further from the truth if you bothered to sit down and read a book.

You do realise red hair in Scotland is 5%, and blonde hair in adults 11%.

So are you saying there was some mass genocide committed against the Scots?:rolleyes:

Why are they now predominantly dark brown or medium brown haired?

Your ''tall'' fair haired Scots don't exist other in small pockets where the Norse had an impact.

[Pyramidologist]

''This racial position for the Picts as the primitive pre-Aryan aborigines of Britain and Ireland in the Stone Age, thus confirms and substantiates, but from totally different sources, the theory of their non-Aryan nature advanced by Rhys.''

''In physical type, the Picts, according to general tradition, were dark "Iberian," small-statured and even pygmy, more or less naked, with their skins "tinged with Caledonian or Pictish woad." They have been allied to the semi-Iberian Basques, whose language was radically non-Aryan''

''The early prehistoric Picts thus appear to have been the primitive aborigines of Albion in the late Old Stone Age and early Neolithic Age whose long-headed, narrow and low-browed skulls are mostly found in the lower strata of the ancient river-beds, and hence termed by Huxley "The River-bed" type''

''This river-bed race of primitive dwarfish men was shown by Huxley to have been widely distributed in remote prehistoric times over the British Isles, from Cornwall to Caithness, and over Ireland, and also over the European continent from Basque and Iberia eastwards.''

''The Serpent-worship of the Picts also, which was so universal, as seen everywhere on the prehistoric monuments in Pictlands, and figuring freely also on the early Christian monuments and "Celtic" crosses of the Picts, is now explained by the matriarchist Van or Fen origin of this race. We have seen the prominence of the Serpent-cult Witch's Bowl or Cauldron amongst the Feins of prehistoric Ireland, and the Serpent guardians there of the Tribe of the "Fidga," i.e., the Picts, the Serpent-cult enmity against the Sun-worshipping heroes Diarmait and Conn of the Irish-Scots, and the widespread carving of the Serpent and its coiled symbols on the prehistoric stone monuments in Ireland, and how St Patrick the Scot in the fifth century A. D. traditionally banished the Serpent-cult from Ireland and demolished the chief Matriarchist idol.''

''It thus transpires by the new evidence that the "Picts" were the primitive small-statured prehistoric aborigines of Albion or Britain with the "River-bed" type of skulls. They were presumably a branch of the primitive small-statured, narrow-browed and long-headed dark race of matriarchist Serpent-worshipping cave-dwellers of the Van Lake region, the Van, Biani, Fen, or Khal-dis or primitive "Chaldees," Caleds or Caledons, who, in early prehistoric times in the Old Stone Age, sent off from this central hive swarm after swarm of "hunger-marchers" under matriarchs, westwards across Asia Minor to Europe, as far as Iberia and the Biscay region, after the retreating ice. The hordes, which ultimately reached Albion overland, formed there the "aborigines" of Albion. They appear to have entered Southern Albion by the old land-bridge at Kent, after the latter end of the last glacial period, when the reindeer, mammoth and woolly rhinoceros still roamed over what is now called England. And then, long ages afterwards, in the late Stone Age, presumably before 2000 B.C., they gave off a branch to Erin under a Van, Ban or Fian matriarch, forming the aborigines of Ireland.''

Waddell, 1924 pp.118-124

[Tarja]

You are just misrepresenting data. Northern Europeans cluster with Northern Europeans before Southern because they are a subset of the latter. It doesn't mean they are distinct, they just have less genetic diversity. You are then making the odd equation of Germany and the Netherlands to Nordid.

Autosomal studies cluster Britian first with Belgium and the Netherlands.



Tacitus description is only describing the Caledonians. I have far more sources, but it's clear i'm wasting my time with you, you aren't interested in truth or researching the sources i provide. Your mind is already made up, you live in a delusional cuckooland where you think all the Scots in antiquity were fair or red haired and tall. Just another self-hating Brit i presume who craves to be Nordid? Nothing could be further from the truth if you bothered to sit down and read a book.

You do realise red hair in Scotland is 5%, and blonde hair in adults 11%.

So are you saying there was some mass genocide committed against the Scots?:rolleyes:

Why are they now predominantly dark brown or medium brown haired?

Your ''tall'' fair haired Scots don't exist other in small pockets where the Norse had an impact.

Various maps show Scotland to be 50-79% light haired and eyed, 13% with red hair. I can confirm this to be true, as I'm sure other Scottish members can. You've clearly never been North of the border.

It's a trivial point, but if you can't even get that right, then I can't trust that you know much about the rest of what you're saying either.

[Pyramidologist]

Various maps show Scotland to be 50-79% light haired and eyed, 13% with red hair. I can confirm this to be true, as I'm sure other Scottish members can. You've clearly never been South of the border.

It's a trivial point, but if you can't even get that right, then I can't trust that you know much about the rest of what you're saying either.

Utter garbage. I guess you have never looked at a pigmentation study.

Gray & Tocher (1901) surveyed a sample of 502, 155 Scottish school children.

The results of hair colour showed that 26. 1% were blonde, 5. 3% were red, 42.1% were ''medium'' (brown), 25. 2% dark brown and 1.2% black. However Coon (1939) has cautioned that fairer hair in children darkens with age, and included a study of 7000 Scottish adults which revealed that ''fair hair runs to 11 per cent, and red to 5 per cent''. In other words, fair hair in Scottish adults is incredbily low, and in children (who are on average lighter) are only 26. 1% (still the small minority). After analysing the survey results, Gray concluded that because of the lack of blondes in Scotland: ''we are driven to the conclusion that the pure Norse or Anglo-Saxon element in our population is by no means predominant.'' (p. 380).

Sources: ''Memoir on the Pigmentation Survey of Scotland, John Gray'', The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 37, Jul. - Dec., 1907, pp. 375-401.

Coon (1939) cites the following:

Beddoe, J., JRAI, vol. 38, 1908, pp.212-220.
Cooper, J., RBAA, vol. 67, 1898, p.507.
Duncan, J. W., RBAA, p.506.
Forbes, A., RBAA, p.506.
Gray, J., RBAA, vol. 69, 1899-1900, pp. 874-875; JRAI, vol. 30, 1900, pp. 104-124; vol. 37, 1907, pp. 375-401.
Gray, J., and Tocher, J. F., The Ethnology of Buchan; JRAI, vol. 30, 1900, pp. 86-88.
Gregor, W., RBAA, vol. 67, 1898, pp. 500-502.
Macleay, K. S., RBAA, p. 507.
Reid, R. W., and Mulligan, J. H., JRAI, vol. 54, 1924, pp.300-313.
Smith, J., and Gardiner, J. B., RBAA, vol. 67, 1898, p.507.
Teit, J. A., and Parsons, F. G., JRAI, vol. 53, 1923, pp.473-483.

===

You are using this forum to spread misinformation.

[Pallantides]

Various maps show Scotland to be 50-79% light haired and eyed, 13% with red hair.

When I was in Scotland and Ireland, the people did not strike me as really that much darker than Norwegians on average.:)

[Scrapple]

The majority of highlanders are now medium brown haired and paler. They have since depigmentated. However in certain pockets you can still find the very swarthy original type. It's called the ''old black breed''. Check Ripley's Races of Europe (1899, pp. 302-303) for photos of this type, it's also associated with the surrounding isles.

Bored at work and was curious so I looked it up.
From http://books.google.com/books?id=XdQKAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://i.imgur.com/zR89T.png

[Argyll]

Various maps show Scotland to be 50-79% light haired and eyed, 13% with red hair. I can confirm this to be true, as I'm sure other Scottish members can. You've clearly never been South of the border.

It's a trivial point, but if you can't even get that right, then I can't trust that you know much about the rest of what you're saying either.

Scotland's supposed to have the highest percent of red haired people in the world, right now. :)

[Graham]

When I was in Scotland and Ireland, the people did not strike me as really that much darker than Norwegians on average.:)

There's not a big difference.

Can remember going to see a football match, Scotland versus Norway. Was in the Wetherspoon pub in Glasgow( big pub). It was packed full of Scots and Norwegians.... Anyway screw yer fancy statistics and facts, getting my information from football..... :icon12:

[Argyll]

There's not a big difference.

Can remember going to see a football match, Scotland versus Norway. Was in the Wetherspoon pub in Glasgow( big pub). It was packed full of Scots and Norwegians.... Anyway screw yer fancy statistics and facts, getting my information from football..... :icon12:

Celts and Scandinavians tend to be on the same level as pigmentation, no?

[Graham]

Celts and Scandinavians tend to be on the same level as pigmentation, no?

Also went to a Sweden versus Trinidad game in 2006 world cup in Germany. They're all blonde. Once again football. :thumb001:

[Argyll]

Also went to a Sweden versus Trinidad game in 2006 world cup in Germany. They're all blonde. Once again football. :thumb001:

What do you think of Pyramidologist's theories about the natives of the isles?

[Tarja]

Utter garbage. I guess you have never looked at a pigmentation study.

...

I feel that reality won't be an acceptable source in your eyes but I do live here, I've been around Scottish people every day of my life. I could give you a more accurate report on our pigmentation than you're giving me. Also, that study is from 1901. Not incredibly old, but I could give you data circa now.



Scotland's supposed to have the highest percent of red haired people in the world, right now. :)

Indeed! We're at 13%, with Ireland at 11%. Winning by a small margin. ;)

[Argyll]

I feel that reality won't be an acceptable source in your eyes but I do live here, I've been around Scottish people every day of my life. I could give you a more accurate report on our pigmentation than you're giving me. Also, that study is from 1901. Not incredibly old, but I could give you data circa now.

Darn! You're not a swarthy pigmy? You ain't Scottish :grumpy:



Indeed! We're at 13%, with Ireland at 11%. Winning by a small margin. ;)

It's interesting because in the US, most red headed people are thought to be Irish, though there's not much difference :lol:

But that's an incredible number for red headed people. I'd like to also support Osweo's idea about selective breading to keep the ginger hair gene alive. Maybe that could be done for blondes, as well?

[Graham]

I heard 13% also, but that would probably include strawberry blonde. Would say the majority of Scots are mousey blonde to dark brown. Urban Scots in the west being darker than rural. But we don't tan as well as the Scandinavians.

[Nglund]

You forgot England & Wales you knobs! :mad:


A 1956 study of hair colour amongst British army recruits also found high levels of red hair in Wales and the English Border counties.

Source. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Modern)

[Artek]

That's funny to see how well-prepaired trolling affects people...

Do you really think that Pyramidologist believes in dat shit he is spreading here?

[Argyll]

I heard 13% also, but that would probably include strawberry blonde. Would say the majority of Scots are mousey blonde to dark brown. Urban Scots in the west being darker than rural. But we don't tan as well as the Scandinavians.

I've always thought that strawberry blondes had some of the most beautiful hair in the world.

What do you think causes Scots, or I guess the Irish and other Brits as well, to not tan as easily?

[Graham]

That's funny to see how well-prepaired trolling affects people...

Since this is in the Scotland part of Apricity. The word nyaff shall replace troll.

[Pyramidologist]

I feel that reality won't be an acceptable source in your eyes but I do live here, I've been around Scottish people every day of my life. I could give you a more accurate report on our pigmentation than you're giving me. Also, that study is from 1901. Not incredibly old, but I could give you data circa now.

I couldn't care less what you personally have seen. You need anthropological data, otherwise this thread will just resort to Pallantides' picture spams.

The pigmentation studies have shown blonde hair in Scotland is the very small minority. It amazes me that people reject scholarly data, for their own biased picture spams or ''what they have personally seen''.


Indeed! We're at 13%, with Ireland at 11%. Winning by a small margin. ;)

Red hair in Scotland runs at 5%.

[Pyramidologist]

That's funny to see how well-prepaired trolling affects people...

Do you really think that Pyramidologist believes in dat shit he is spreading here?

''dat shit'' as in academic pigmentation studies from Coon and Tocher? Weren't you the troll who posted in my book thread to insult Coon?

Tell me do you have better credentials than Coon had? Are you an anthropologist? Otherwise fuck off.

[Pallantides]

I trust the opinions of native Scots like Tarja and Graham over outdated pseudoscience.

[Artek]

''dat shit'' as in academic pigmentation studies from Coon and Tocher? Weren't you the troll who posted in my book thread to insult Coon?
Yes...


Tell me do you have better credentials than Coon had? Are you an anthropologist? Otherwise fuck off.
Yes...

[Argyll]

I trust the opinions of native Scots like Tarja and Graham over outdated pseudoscience.

I echo this.

[Peasant]

Coon (1939) cites the following:

Beddoe, J., JRAI, vol. 38, 1908, pp.212-220.
Cooper, J., RBAA, vol. 67, 1898, p.507.
Duncan, J. W., RBAA, p.506.
Forbes, A., RBAA, p.506.
Gray, J., RBAA, vol. 69, 1899-1900, pp. 874-875; JRAI, vol. 30, 1900, pp. 104-124; vol. 37, 1907, pp. 375-401.
Gray, J., and Tocher, J. F., The Ethnology of Buchan; JRAI, vol. 30, 1900, pp. 86-88.
Gregor, W., RBAA, vol. 67, 1898, pp. 500-502.
Macleay, K. S., RBAA, p. 507.
Reid, R. W., and Mulligan, J. H., JRAI, vol. 54, 1924, pp.300-313.
Smith, J., and Gardiner, J. B., RBAA, vol. 67, 1898, p.507.
Teit, J. A., and Parsons, F. G., JRAI, vol. 53, 1923, pp.473-483.


Somebody quoted already old studies in 1939. I guess that makes it 100% troof :coffee:

[Styggnacke]

''dat shit'' as in academic pigmentation studies from Coon and Tocher? Weren't you the troll who posted in my book thread to insult Coon?

Tell me do you have better credentials than Coon had? Are you an anthropologist? Otherwise fuck off.
http://chzjustcapshunz.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/funny-captions-u-mad-brah.jpg
Seriously, what's up with your swarthy complex?

[Peyrol]

Well, Coon isn't a god...he described moroccans, mauritani, egyptians and ethiopians as "mediterraneans"...

[hajduk]

I dont want to mess, but 11 % blonde Scots? Come on this is a joke even for Balkans

[Styggnacke]

I've been in Scotland. We stayed in Perth and visited Edinburgh and other places in the country. In my opinion, the Scots didn't strike me as extremely dark haired.

[Pyramidologist]

I dont want to mess, but 11 % blonde Scots? Come on this is a joke even for Balkans

11% in adults, 26% in children.

Overall Scotland is no more than 20% blonde, probably closer to 15%.

This is shown in pigmentation studies from Beddoe to Coon.

Tarja is just another crazy pseudo-Nordicist who thinks the average Brit has fair hair and light eyes. Such people are as delusional as Afrocentrics.

[gandalf]

I dont want to mess, but 11 % blonde Scots? Come on this is a joke even for Balkans

11% , that makes one man on ten witch is blond ,

this is definitly a LOT .

[Pyramidologist]

11% , that makes one man on ten witch is blond ,

this is definitly a LOT .

It massively differs in regions. But overall as a country, yes, 1/10 is blonde and 1/20 is a redhead.

These other idiots who are claiming Scotland is 50-70% blonde/fair or 13% red haired are just pseudo-Nordicists. Even real Nordicists like Madison Grant never claimed the majority of Scotland was light haired, which just goes to show most of these internet Nordicists are trolls.

[Jack B]

I met a blonde once, in my excitement I chopped his golden locks off and fashioned them into a wig which I wore for a week. The villagers would refer to me as the eachtrannach bán (or "white foreigner") and lavish me with gifts.

[Pyramidologist]

I trust the opinions of native Scots like Tarja and Graham over outdated pseudoscience.

Why the hell are you on this forum? Coon is now ''pseudo-science''? Large sections of the Apricity pages and glossary are based on his research and racial classifications.

[Argyll]

11% in adults, 26% in children.

Overall Scotland is no more than 20% blonde, probably closer to 15%.

This is shown in pigmentation studies from Beddoe to Coon.

Tarja is just another crazy pseudo-Nordicist who thinks the average Brit has fair hair and light eyes. Such people are as delusional as Afrocentrics.

When did she ever say that? :confused:

[gandalf]

This mean that on 20 adults you find in average 2 blonds , one red head ,
and the other are from dark blond to brown .

This seems far from being a swarthy country .
You just have to remember that those hair color don't need to be majority
to seem abundant , as they catch light and sights .

I think that except in some limited areas of scandinavia
blondism is never a majority , only the % increase from south to north of Europe and that makes people from the south feel that "they are all blond" and "all swarthy" for people of the north .

[Pallantides]

Why the hell are you on this forum? Coon is now ''pseudo-science''? Large sections of the Apricity pages and glossary are based on his research and racial classifications.

Which is considered mostly outdated and no longer in scientific-use.
Of course there is still a fringe who swear to it like it's the golden rule and the epitome of scientific truth when in fact a lot of the information is biased and gathered through dubious means. Some of these anthroplogist didn't even visit the populations they wrote about or they just selected a small group they thought were ideal representations and claimed such and such are these peoples. Some of it might be accurate but it should viewed with a critical eye.

[somerled]

11% in adults, 26% in children.

Overall Scotland is no more than 20% blonde, probably closer to 15%.

This is shown in pigmentation studies from Beddoe to Coon.

Tarja is just another crazy pseudo-Nordicist who thinks the average Brit has fair hair and light eyes. Such people are as delusional as Afrocentrics.

Stop misrepresenting people.
Nobody has claimed the Scots are predominately blond Nordic types, we're simply mocking your ludicrous claim that they are predominately swarthy, short and of mediterranean origin or were ever so in historical times.

[Pyramidologist]

This mean that on 20 adults you find in average 2 blonds , one red head ,
and the other are from dark blond to brown .

The pigmentation surveys deal with the country as a whole, but it massively differs in certain regions. For example in one region there could be only 10/1000 blondes, but in another 200/1000. This is more apparant in England, than in Scotland. For example, blondes in Cornwall (south-west england) are no more than 5%, but on the eastern coasts of the North Sea run as high as 47%. Overall though blondes are the small minority in Scotland, England and Wales and the regions with the highest amount of blondes are the (Indo-European) Viking or Saxon stronghold areas.


I think that except in some limited areas of scandinavia
blondism is never a majority , only the % increase from south to north of Europe and that makes people from the south feel that "they are all blond" and "all swarthy" for people of the north .

Scandinavia overall is majority blonde, figures range from 65 - 75% from the studies i have seen. This is because they are majority Nordid. You then have some mixed Nordid or darker CM types and Lappids, but those are the minority.

[Osweo]

It's picture spamming time!!!! :clap:

Pictland, away from the strongest Gaelic, English and Norse influences: NAIRN
http://www.highland.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FC42EB5C-CF0A-4625-ADA8-EDF30E45AEED/0/CopyofNairnsodcutting.jpg

And the pitch black negrids of Blairgowrie;
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/dailyrecord3/dec2011/7/6/blairgowrie-youth-football-club-image-1-386572604.jpg
http://www.dreamstore.org/update/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Doc-pics-BLAIRGOWRIE-2009-6.jpg

Christ, you'd thing you was in Mogadishu or summat.

[Pyramidologist]

Stop misrepresenting people.
Nobody has claimed the Scots are predominately blond Nordic types, we're simply mocking your ludicrous claim that they are predominately swarthy, short and of mediterranean origin or were ever so in historical times.

So then how do you explain that you can *still* find the ancestral small ibero-insular swarthy type across Britain in certain pockets?

Research these terms:

''Old Black Breed'' (Scotland)
''Small Dark Highlander'' (Scotland)
''Black Celts'' (Ireland)
''Swarthy Pict'' (Scotland)

''Who were the ancient Britons?

In physique it was short, swarthy, dark-haired, dark-eyed, and long-skulled; its language belonged to the class called Hamitic''
- The mythology of the British Islands; an introduction to Celtic myth, legend, poetry, and romance (1905) by Charles Squire

''We meet with their relics in the long barrows, and deduce from them a short, dark, long-skulled race of slight physique and in a relatively low stage of civilisation''.
- Ibid.

[Pyramidologist]

It's picture spamming time!!!! :clap:

Sean Connery

http://dailyproof.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sean-connery-5.jpg

[Pallantides]

Lol that's all you can come up with; one indvidual, when Osweo post crowds.


It's picture spamming time!!!!

Christ, you'd thing you was in Mogadishu or summat.
For comparison.


Some pictures from Valdres, Norway:
http://i.imgur.com/IEBad.png
http://i.imgur.com/nXllp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qF3fo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CxuXi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/i6JPi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Sfg3G.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SQsir.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6154/valdres18.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1720/valdres24.jpg


And some random crowds of Norwegian fotball fans:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1156/tribuneflip250b.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6472/brannfans.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3623/503xc.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1667/flagg562308793a.jpg
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5342/vifklanentit766341x.jpg

[Osweo]

Connery's Irish, anyroad. :shrug:

[Gaztelu]

The Celts of Ireland and Britain were called Black Celts. It's because they were of Iberian extraction, and swarthy.

''These are the Iberians and "black Celts" of Western Europe. . ."



:rofl_002:

[Lumi]

Connery's Irish, anyroad. :shrug:

I do hope you're joking.
Sean Connery was born in Fountainbridge, Edinburgh.

[Osweo]

I do hope you're joking.
Sean Connery was born in Fountainbridge, Edinburgh.

We're talking about ancient anthropology, not modern day results of the Nineteenth Century importation of cheap labour.

[Lumi]

We're talking about ancient anthropology, not modern day results of the Nineteenth Century importation of cheap labour.

Well sorry you weren't clear enough on that.

[Curtis24]

So then how do you explain that you can *still* find the ancestral small ibero-insular swarthy type across Britain in certain pockets?

Research these terms:

''Old Black Breed'' (Scotland)
''Small Dark Highlander'' (Scotland)
''Black Celts'' (Ireland)
''Swarthy Pict'' (Scotland)

''Who were the ancient Britons?

In physique it was short, swarthy, dark-haired, dark-eyed, and long-skulled; its language belonged to the class called Hamitic''
- The mythology of the British Islands; an introduction to Celtic myth, legend, poetry, and romance (1905) by Charles Squire

''We meet with their relics in the long barrows, and deduce from them a short, dark, long-skulled race of slight physique and in a relatively low stage of civilisation''.
- Ibid.

Coon never said they were prevalent, though. In fact, he believed that Nordids were most common in the British Isles. I couldn't say if he was right or not...

[Curtis24]

We're talking about ancient anthropology, not modern day results of the Nineteenth Century importation of cheap labour.



That's absolutely right. Also, there's been some economic dislocation in Europe since WWII - some areas grew much faster than others, and there have been internal movements within countries. Though I don't know details, I'd expect these things apply to Norway, which changed its economy a lot because of their oil industry.

[billErobreren]

Sean Connery

http://dailyproof.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sean-connery-5.jpg
That all you got?
dude's partially Irish anyways there's a reason why they got him to play a Spaniard instead of a Scotsman in the Highlander