Has there been genetic studies done on the remains of any Moorish inhabitants from Al-Andalus?

[andrzej]

Historically we know that most of the Moors were native converts to Islam, so the majority of them aren't going to differ from Spaniards or Portuguese people, but I'm just curious of any genetic studies on the remains of people from that era?

[Beowulf]

Hello, I think there is avalaible some G25 samples from that period and some gedmatch kits as well (there is even a thread for them)

i only have this one now


Al- Andalus,0.0807196,0.1425973,0.0213387,-0.0267552,0.0343398,-0.0141537,-0.0099878,0.0001922,0.0278322,0.02609,0.0011097,0. 0037467,-0.0040013,-0.0112048,0.0084032,0.0006298,0.0013799,-0.0068833,-0.0100453,0.0010317,-0.001466,-0.0077489,0.0030196,-0.0049402,0.0003692


Target: Al-Andalus
Distance: 1.8825% / 0.01882545
36.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.4 MAR_Taforalt
7.2 WHG
0.4 Dinka
0.4 Yoruba


compared with modern distance:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Al-Andalus_MA


0.02165825
Spanish_Canarias


0.04263051
Portuguese


0.04279173
Spanish_Extremadura


0.04593082
Sicilian_West


0.04638572
Spanish_Andalucia


0.04724963
Spanish_Murcia


0.04795179
Maltese


0.04839924
Spanish_Galicia


0.05011696
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon


0.05104337
French_Corsica


0.05264482
Spanish_Eivissa


0.05305656
Spanish_Alacant


0.05357429
Spanish_Menorca


0.05384661
Italian_Umbria


0.05399186
Italian_Tuscany


0.05420569
Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o


0.05440264
Italian_Emilia


0.05449633
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha


0.05452375
Italian_Lazio


0.05480900
Italian_Marche



</tbody>

[Benyzero]

Gallop currently researching it

[andrzej]

Gallop currently researching it
Alright, cool.


Hello, I think there is avalaible some G25 samples from that period and some gedmatch kits as well (there is even a thread for them)

i only have this one now


Al- Andalus,0.0807196,0.1425973,0.0213387,-0.0267552,0.0343398,-0.0141537,-0.0099878,0.0001922,0.0278322,0.02609,0.0011097,0. 0037467,-0.0040013,-0.0112048,0.0084032,0.0006298,0.0013799,-0.0068833,-0.0100453,0.0010317,-0.001466,-0.0077489,0.0030196,-0.0049402,0.0003692


Target: Al-Andalus
Distance: 1.8825% / 0.01882545
36.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.4 MAR_Taforalt
7.2 WHG
0.4 Dinka
0.4 Yoruba


compared with modern distance:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Al-Andalus_MA


0.02165825
Spanish_Canarias


0.04263051
Portuguese


0.04279173
Spanish_Extremadura


0.04593082
Sicilian_West


0.04638572
Spanish_Andalucia


0.04724963
Spanish_Murcia


0.04795179
Maltese


0.04839924
Spanish_Galicia


0.05011696
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon


0.05104337
French_Corsica


0.05264482
Spanish_Eivissa


0.05305656
Spanish_Alacant


0.05357429
Spanish_Menorca


0.05384661
Italian_Umbria


0.05399186
Italian_Tuscany


0.05420569
Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o


0.05440264
Italian_Emilia


0.05449633
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha


0.05452375
Italian_Lazio


0.05480900
Italian_Marche



</tbody>


That's interesting! So it's safe to say that they were basically native Iberians with minor North African admixture if they cluster with Canarians? At least basing on an individual I guess. I'm curious why the Ukraine Zhytomyr before pops up before other Spanish regions. Do you think its due to Saqaliba admixture? A lot of slaves came from Kievan Rus. Also, do you know what year this person lived in?

Do you have a non-Al Andalus Spaniards breakdown by any chance?

[Beowulf]

Alright, cool.




That's interesting! So it's safe to say that they were basically native Iberians with minor North African admixture if they cluster with Canarians? At least basing on an individual I guess. I'm curious why the Ukraine Zhytomyr before pops up before other Spanish regions. Do you think its due to Saqaliba admixture? A lot of slaves came from Kievan Rus. Also, do you know what year this person lived in?

Do you have a non-Al Andalus Spaniards breakdown by any chance?

Hello :thumb001:, first of all the Zythomyr sample is an outlier sample i think it was ashkenazi (idk why didn't labelled as one), Also yes they seems to be mostly of Iberian ancestry with some higher NA admixture but i think it arrived more in roman era times, there are some samples from visigothic period in Granada with the same genetic make-up, the sample i used by disgrace i don't know from wich year is it dated but is an averaged sample from various samples.

If i remember well this sample was from medieval Girona:

Northeast_Medieval_Iberian,0.1141078,0.1454745,0.0 33941,-0.0063792,0.0375455,-0.001046,0.0001175,0.0031728,0.0259233,0.033076,-0.0032475,0.003859,-0.0118182,-0.0116978,0.0027482,-0.0012927,6.5e-05,-0.0040538,-0.00088,-0.0025325,0.004336,0.000371,-0.0001847,-0.0011747,-0.0003592




Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
Distance: 2.9011% / 0.02901075
56.4 TUR_Barcin_N
29.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.2 WHG
3.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

It's very similar to modern Iberians.


<tbody>
Distance to:
Northeast_Medieval_Iberian


0.01288874
Spanish_Eivissa


0.01560141
Spanish_Murcia


0.01576327
Spanish_Baleares


0.01580169
Spanish_Menorca


0.01621973
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha


0.01730776
Spanish_Alacant


0.01738049
Spanish_Andalucia


0.01751813
Portuguese


0.01759235
Spanish_Mallorca


0.01767313
Spanish_Extremadura


</tbody>

[Jingle Bell]

Yeah, they were very identical to earlier iberians of Roman Era, the Al-Andalus/Late MA Iberian samples not surprisigly clusters with the Roman Era ones, some are even less NA shifted than the Al Andalus ones, NA geneflow started getting intense in Iberian prob around late IA/Early Roman Era (Punic, and NA's slaves/mercenaries/legionaries from Rome), also Levantine & East-Central Med profiles (Roman/,Greek settlers), the difference that some Al Andalus samplea have a Arabian/SSA shift which was for sure absent in peninsula, but they also disappeared in posterior iberians from Late MA (Reconquista/Expulsion) so yeah iberians changed few since Late Roman era.

[HelloGuys]

The moorish muslim people who were different from native iberians and Berbers were studied in Iñigo Olalde's 2019 study (The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years).

They were modeled in qpAdm in 2-way and 3-way like this:

https://i.imgur.com/LZidZYA.png

But from time to time there were genetic profiles like these 2:

https://i.imgur.com/iYOr2TL.png

The next ones are the native iberians (No matter if they were muslim or catholic):

https://i.imgur.com/1yucIiQ.png

[Jingle Bell]

Yeah, they were very identical to earlier iberians of Roman Era, the Al-Andalus/Late MA Iberian samples not surprisigly clusters with the Roman Era ones, some are even less NA shifted than the Al Andalus ones, NA geneflow started getting intense in Iberian prob around late IA/Early Roman Era (Punic, and NA's slaves/mercenaries/legionaries from Rome), also Levantine & East-Central Med profiles (Roman/,Greek settlers), the difference that some Al Andalus samplea have a Arabian/SSA shift which was for sure absent in peninsula, but they also disappeared in posterior iberians from Late MA (Reconquista/Expulsion) so yeah iberians changed few since Late Roman era.

Using averages:https://i.imgur.com/MXGhbnD.png


IA:Spain_IA,0.1258262,0.1492827,0.0583851,0.004962 5,0.0602349,-0.0044623,-0.0022645,0.0031048,0.0336535,0.0464537,-0.0050636,0.0132018,-0.0238533,-0.0138374,0.0089698,0.0056533,0.006626,0.0005185,0 .0040911,-0.0026263,0.0052294,-0.0004945,-0.0051203,-0.0136163,-0.0022753
IA:Spain_IA_Celt,0.1252055,0.1477595,0.066939,0.01 21125,0.0604725,0.0046015,-0.002585,0.0040385,0.026179,0.033896,-0.0002435,0.0095165,-0.0165015,-0.0088075,0.009772,-0.0012595,-0.0099745,-0.000317,0.002514,-0.0046275,0.008485,0.0037715,-0.006347,-0.0103625,-0.0072445
IA:Spain_Hellenistic_oLocal,0.1252055,0.138112,0.0 539285,0.0337535,0.0381605,0.0039045,0.001175,0.00 6461,0.017487,0.0222325,-0.0050345,0.0019485,-0.0208125,-0.01968,0.015133,0.0077565,0.012582,0.002407,0.002 828,0.0060025,0.0084225,-0.0003705,-0.003389,0.0097605,0.0010175
IA:Spain_LIA,0.126723,0.1533447,0.060088,0.0024763 ,0.059806,0.000744,-0.00047,0.005461,0.035178,0.0490823,-0.0056297,0.0059447,-0.0244797,-0.0141293,0.0104053,-0.0026077,-0.0078667,0.0054477,-0.005908,-0.0014173,0.0136423,-4.13E-05,-0.0110103,-0.0125317,8.00E-05
Roman:Portugal_Conimbriga_Roman.SG,0.113254,0.1462 36,0.050911,0.007752,0.0486245,0.001952,0.00423,0. 0016155,0.0330305,0.0309805,-0.0025985,0.0082425,-0.019623,-0.0108725,0.0146575,0.005436,0.001499,0.004244,0.0 02514,0.003064,0.006426,0.001422,-0.003636,-0.0091575,0.0025145
Roman:Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG,0.0984572,0.14 28512,0.0355123,-0.0088825,0.0444697,-0.0058567,-0.0054052,0.0023075,0.0305082,0.0322557,-0.0036808,0.007968,-0.0091178,-0.0163312,0.0095458,0.0004642,0.0001957,-0.0019423,-0.0102235,0.0005212,0.0028285,-0.0021637,0.0010473,-0.0044583,0.0009182
Roman:Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman.SG,0.0830907, 0.1445437,0.0235073,-0.0230407,0.0336473,-0.0090173,-0.010262,-0.0005383,0.0289743,0.02934,-0.002057,0.0016487,-0.004757,-0.0084407,0.009817,-0.002961,-0.0033467,-0.0059543,-0.0080027,0.001334,-0.001872,-0.0056057,0.0041903,-0.0041773,-0.00012
Al-Andalus:Spain_Islamic,0.0967497,0.1452207,0.029604 2,-0.0178188,0.0366733,-0.0066467,-0.0057183,-0.0017692,0.0246452,0.0283378,0.0004873,0.0081677,-0.0091427,-0.015666,0.006899,0.00579,0.0045852,-0.008847,-0.0114385,-0.0002083,0.0020797,-0.002267,0.0017257,-0.0035142,0.0007785
Al-Andalus:Spain_Islamic_Almohade,0.068294,0.147252,0 .027153,-0.025194,0.035699,-0.014781,-0.011045,0.004615,0.031292,0.036083,0.003085,0.004 646,-0.008028,-0.013074,0.006243,-0.005701,0.005998,0.000253,-0.013575,-0.001251,-0.006863,-0.025349,0.008997,-0.003012,-0.004071
Al-Andalus:Spain_Islamic_Zira,0.084229,0.1416665,0.00 92395,-0.0272935,0.0273895,-0.0188255,-0.0071675,0.0021925,0.024236,0.024784,0.0014615,-0.003297,-0.003345,-0.002408,0.009297,-0.0025855,-0.001043,-0.003674,-0.00905,0.0070035,-0.0018715,-0.010696,0.001048,-0.0047595,0.000599
Al-Andalus:Spain_NazariPeriod_LateMuslim,0.030732,0.1 39128,0.024513,-0.040052,0.039084,-0.023706,-0.022091,-0.004154,0.029451,0.021322,-0.005521,0.008093,-0.005054,-0.012386,0.0076,-0.003845,0.007953,-0.006841,-0.019483,-0.004377,-0.013851,-0.013849,-0.003821,-0.010363,-0.002754
Al-Andalus:Spain_NazariPeriod_Muslim,0.0782532,0.1414 128,0.017819,-0.0356107,0.027774,-0.0158965,-0.013102,0.0016155,0.0294512,0.0265152,0.001827,0. 0012362,0.0008178,-0.0079478,0.0070235,-0.000232,-0.0031292,0.0018055,-0.0040852,-0.0014385,0.0023397,-0.008223,0.0009553,-0.0044282,0.0043707
Roman:Spain_Roman,0.088782,0.147252,0.03017,-0.025517,0.044008,-0.021753,-0.001645,0.003923,0.029247,0.037176,-0.002923,0.001499,-0.005798,-0.010872,0.00665,-0.004641,-0.012256,-0.005828,-0.01081,0.00025,-0.000499,-0.007666,0.003204,-0.007471,-0.005389

As is visible after IA, iberian suffered little shift, and Al-Andalus still overlap with Roman Iberia

[HelloGuys]

The moorish muslim people who were different from native iberians and Berbers were studied in Iñigo Olalde's 2019 study (The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years).

They were modeled in qpAdm in 2-way and 3-way like this:

https://i.imgur.com/LZidZYA.png

But from time to time there were genetic profiles like these 2:

https://i.imgur.com/iYOr2TL.png

The next ones are the native iberians (No matter if they were muslim or catholic):

https://i.imgur.com/1yucIiQ.png

And compared to this another admixture model in qpAdm in 3-way (But labelled just as Spanish and Amazigh):

https://i.imgur.com/yBpSfUP.jpg

I don't know the origin of the study and/or author (So I can't confirm if it is indeed by Reich Lab/Harvard).

[HelloGuys]

Using averages:https://i.imgur.com/MXGhbnD.png


IA:Spain_IA,0.1258262,0.1492827,0.0583851,0.004962 5,0.0602349,-0.0044623,-0.0022645,0.0031048,0.0336535,0.0464537,-0.0050636,0.0132018,-0.0238533,-0.0138374,0.0089698,0.0056533,0.006626,0.0005185,0 .0040911,-0.0026263,0.0052294,-0.0004945,-0.0051203,-0.0136163,-0.0022753
IA:Spain_IA_Celt,0.1252055,0.1477595,0.066939,0.01 21125,0.0604725,0.0046015,-0.002585,0.0040385,0.026179,0.033896,-0.0002435,0.0095165,-0.0165015,-0.0088075,0.009772,-0.0012595,-0.0099745,-0.000317,0.002514,-0.0046275,0.008485,0.0037715,-0.006347,-0.0103625,-0.0072445
IA:Spain_Hellenistic_oLocal,0.1252055,0.138112,0.0 539285,0.0337535,0.0381605,0.0039045,0.001175,0.00 6461,0.017487,0.0222325,-0.0050345,0.0019485,-0.0208125,-0.01968,0.015133,0.0077565,0.012582,0.002407,0.002 828,0.0060025,0.0084225,-0.0003705,-0.003389,0.0097605,0.0010175
IA:Spain_LIA,0.126723,0.1533447,0.060088,0.0024763 ,0.059806,0.000744,-0.00047,0.005461,0.035178,0.0490823,-0.0056297,0.0059447,-0.0244797,-0.0141293,0.0104053,-0.0026077,-0.0078667,0.0054477,-0.005908,-0.0014173,0.0136423,-4.13E-05,-0.0110103,-0.0125317,8.00E-05
Roman:Portugal_Conimbriga_Roman.SG,0.113254,0.1462 36,0.050911,0.007752,0.0486245,0.001952,0.00423,0. 0016155,0.0330305,0.0309805,-0.0025985,0.0082425,-0.019623,-0.0108725,0.0146575,0.005436,0.001499,0.004244,0.0 02514,0.003064,0.006426,0.001422,-0.003636,-0.0091575,0.0025145
Roman:Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG,0.0984572,0.14 28512,0.0355123,-0.0088825,0.0444697,-0.0058567,-0.0054052,0.0023075,0.0305082,0.0322557,-0.0036808,0.007968,-0.0091178,-0.0163312,0.0095458,0.0004642,0.0001957,-0.0019423,-0.0102235,0.0005212,0.0028285,-0.0021637,0.0010473,-0.0044583,0.0009182
Roman:Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman.SG,0.0830907, 0.1445437,0.0235073,-0.0230407,0.0336473,-0.0090173,-0.010262,-0.0005383,0.0289743,0.02934,-0.002057,0.0016487,-0.004757,-0.0084407,0.009817,-0.002961,-0.0033467,-0.0059543,-0.0080027,0.001334,-0.001872,-0.0056057,0.0041903,-0.0041773,-0.00012
Al-Andalus:Spain_Islamic,0.0967497,0.1452207,0.029604 2,-0.0178188,0.0366733,-0.0066467,-0.0057183,-0.0017692,0.0246452,0.0283378,0.0004873,0.0081677,-0.0091427,-0.015666,0.006899,0.00579,0.0045852,-0.008847,-0.0114385,-0.0002083,0.0020797,-0.002267,0.0017257,-0.0035142,0.0007785
Al-Andalus:Spain_Islamic_Almohade,0.068294,0.147252,0 .027153,-0.025194,0.035699,-0.014781,-0.011045,0.004615,0.031292,0.036083,0.003085,0.004 646,-0.008028,-0.013074,0.006243,-0.005701,0.005998,0.000253,-0.013575,-0.001251,-0.006863,-0.025349,0.008997,-0.003012,-0.004071
Al-Andalus:Spain_Islamic_Zira,0.084229,0.1416665,0.00 92395,-0.0272935,0.0273895,-0.0188255,-0.0071675,0.0021925,0.024236,0.024784,0.0014615,-0.003297,-0.003345,-0.002408,0.009297,-0.0025855,-0.001043,-0.003674,-0.00905,0.0070035,-0.0018715,-0.010696,0.001048,-0.0047595,0.000599
Al-Andalus:Spain_NazariPeriod_LateMuslim,0.030732,0.1 39128,0.024513,-0.040052,0.039084,-0.023706,-0.022091,-0.004154,0.029451,0.021322,-0.005521,0.008093,-0.005054,-0.012386,0.0076,-0.003845,0.007953,-0.006841,-0.019483,-0.004377,-0.013851,-0.013849,-0.003821,-0.010363,-0.002754
Al-Andalus:Spain_NazariPeriod_Muslim,0.0782532,0.1414 128,0.017819,-0.0356107,0.027774,-0.0158965,-0.013102,0.0016155,0.0294512,0.0265152,0.001827,0. 0012362,0.0008178,-0.0079478,0.0070235,-0.000232,-0.0031292,0.0018055,-0.0040852,-0.0014385,0.0023397,-0.008223,0.0009553,-0.0044282,0.0043707
Roman:Spain_Roman,0.088782,0.147252,0.03017,-0.025517,0.044008,-0.021753,-0.001645,0.003923,0.029247,0.037176,-0.002923,0.001499,-0.005798,-0.010872,0.00665,-0.004641,-0.012256,-0.005828,-0.01081,0.00025,-0.000499,-0.007666,0.003204,-0.007471,-0.005389

As is visible after IA, iberian suffered little shift, and Al-Andalus still overlap with Roman Iberia

Cool bro, but you would need at least berbers/northwest africans, modern iberians, levantines and SSA as references base because if not the samples you want to plot does not have a correct shift in the PCA.

Like this (But I have made one for the whole world lol):

https://i.imgur.com/waolAiQ.png

Now I marked the IA, Al-Andalus and Roman to see them better:

https://i.imgur.com/fpyaC4A.png

I admit that it is better to use individuals rather than averages in a PCA, but this was the model I had on hand :lol: anyway it serves its purpose :thumb001:

[Kess]

Gallop currently researching it

Conclusion: They were Visigoths.

[Flashball]

Morisco (from actual North Africa)
Tetwani1_scaled,0.052359,0.139128,0.016593,-0.033269,0.028005,-0.011435,-0.00987,0.002769,0.034565,0.026242,0.003573,0.0022 48,0.000595,-0.004542,0.007057,-0.012066,-0.011343,-0.008615,-0.015838,-0.000125,-0.007362,-0.013725,0.008751,-0.009278,0.010897

Target: Tetwani1_scaled
Distance: 3.0022% / 0.03002189
37.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
20.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.2 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 MAR_Taforalt
6.4 WHG
1.6 Yoruba
1.2 Dinka


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco#Notable_Moriscos_and_Morisco_descendants

[axel.aleman]

El residuo norteafricano proviene más de inmigraciones aún más atrás en el Neolítico que se asentaron en el oeste de la península ibérica, no por nada Galicia y Portugal tienen más NA residual que el Este de Andalucía
Y el promedio es solo 4%
Puedo decir esto ahora que no están los Trolles Shitcanos y spaghetti que saquen de contexto esto para sus trolleos

[axel.aleman]

También cabe recordar que el Al Andalus no fue una precuela de Hispanoamérica en cuanto a mestizaje masivo

[HelloGuys]

El residuo norteafricano proviene más de inmigraciones aún más atrás en el Neolítico que se asentaron en el oeste de la península ibérica, no por nada Galicia y Portugal tienen más NA residual que el Este de Andalucía
Y el promedio es solo 4%
Puedo decir esto ahora que no están los Trolles Shitcanos y spaghetti que saquen de contexto esto para sus trolleos

Bro, about the Neolithic times in Iberia, there are not evidence to support this claim; in fact we have a sample from Copper Age or Early Bronze Age that was like a pre-proto-berber in Iberia (No steppe contribution) but it does not mean that they mixed with the local population because we have not found North African heritage in the Iberian samples in those Ages but until the Roman times which is where they began to have those North African genetic markers, but still the greatest contribution in the genetic pool from Berbers to the Spanish population as a whole was in the Early half of Middle Ages according to Clare Bycroft's 2019 study:

https://i.imgur.com/uzB9PmB.jpg

About the Galician and portuguese people having more North African heritage, (My opinion) well, I think is because that they were a small population and mixing between them remained more the MENA markers than the other iberians/spaniards (End of my opinion) but still the greatest admixture is in Early half of Middle Ages as you can see in the admixture dates in the 6 iberian clusters:

https://i.imgur.com/k4WZtDV.jpg

And the spanish average is a little bit more, like 5.5%. Ranging from 0% (Basques) to around 10.6% (Galicians).

For more information here is the link of the study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

[Jingle Bell]

Bro, about the Neolithic times in Iberia, there are not evidence to support this claim; in fact we have a sample from Copper Age or Early Bronze Age that was like a pre-proto-berber in Iberia (No steppe contribution) but it does not mean that they mixed with the local population because we have not found North African heritage in the Iberian samples in those Ages but until the Roman times which is where they began to have those North African genetic markers, but still the greatest contribution in the genetic pool from Berbers to the Spanish population as a whole was in the Early half of Middle Ages according to Clare Bycroft's 2019 study:

https://i.imgur.com/uzB9PmB.jpg

About the Galician and portuguese people having more North African heritage, (My opinion) well, I think is because that they were a small population and mixing between them remained more the MENA markers than the other iberians/spaniards (End of my opinion) but still the greatest admixture is in Early half of Middle Ages as you can see in the admixture dates in the 6 iberian clusters:

https://i.imgur.com/k4WZtDV.jpg

And the spanish average is a little bit more, like 5.5%. Ranging from 0% (Basques) to around 10.6% (Galicians).

For more information here is the link of the study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

Overall i agree, but seens that NA admix dont peaked in Early MA but rather in Early-Middle Roman Era or maybe a bit earlier (Late IA?)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6436108/

https://i.imgur.com/C2n4F0Y.png
In average, Late Roman/Visigothic Iberia (3 - 4CE/ 5 - 8 CE) actually had a a bit less Iberian genepool than Al-Andalus period ( 10 - 16CE)

https://i.imgur.com/WtZmv8M.png
Some Y-dna NA markers apperared just after 8CE, which seens of indiscutible Moorish origin, but despite some Y-DNA from NA (Which inst suprisingly bcs the moor invasion despite no so big in absolute number was havily man/soldier biased) the autossonomical contribuition acutally remain the same or actually lowered a bit, which seens that overall the earlier NA influx in Iberia (as the study sugest of Phoenician/Cartaghe origin or even mabe NA slaves/roman mercenaries) was just replaced/added by other NA source more south shifted (as the more Arabian/SSA y-dna presence indicates) which gets in Iberia about Early Middle Age.

Moorish invasion was very man-biased and despote the low autossonomical contribuition the y-dna was very visible: (E1b clades, J ones can be from Jewsih or even later Roman imigration, while I is strongly associated with Germanic settlers, that despite also the low autossonomical impact was very man-biased and impacted y-dna mostly)
https://i.imgur.com/ZIFFhGF.png

https://i.imgur.com/atVxhf0.png
Individuals from SE Iberia actually suffered a lower in NA blood, prob associated with a homogenization inter-iberian during the Moorish invasion, and descreases more in 10 -16 CE (expulsion of marranos) , despite the Levant contribuition actually remain stabel (prob indicating a Jewish contribuition of less probably a late roman influx)

[HelloGuys]

Overall i agree, but seens that NA admix dont peaked in Early MA but rather in Early-Middle Roman Era or maybe a bit earlier (Late IA?)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6436108/

https://i.imgur.com/C2n4F0Y.png
In average, Late Roman/Visigothic Iberia (3 - 4CE/ 5 - 8 CE) actually had a a bit less Iberian genepool than Al-Andalus period ( 10 - 16CE)

https://i.imgur.com/WtZmv8M.png
Some Y-dna NA markers apperared just after 8CE, which seens of indiscutible Moorish origin, but despite some Y-DNA from NA (Which inst suprisingly bcs the moor invasion despite no so big in absolute number was havily man/soldier biased) the autossonomical contribuition acutally remain the same or actually lowered a bit, which seens that overall the earlier NA influx in Iberia (as the study sugest of Phoenician/Cartaghe origin or even mabe NA slaves/roman mercenaries) was just replaced/added by other NA source more south shifted (as the more Arabian/SSA y-dna presence indicates) which gets in Iberia about Early Middle Age.

Moorish invasion was very man-biased and despote the low autossonomical contribuition the y-dna was very visible: (E1b clades, J ones can be from Jewsih or even later Roman imigration, while I is strongly associated with Germanic settlers, that despite also the low autossonomical impact was very man-biased and impacted y-dna mostly)
https://i.imgur.com/ZIFFhGF.png

https://i.imgur.com/atVxhf0.png
Individuals from SE Iberia actually suffered a lower in NA blood, prob associated with a homogenization inter-iberian during the Moorish invasion, and descreases more in 10 -16 CE (expulsion of marranos) , despite the Levant contribuition actually remain stabel (prob indicating a Jewish contribuition of less probably a late roman influx)

I am talking about the NA geneflow in whole Iberia not just in some zones, bro; I have read that study of Olalde and just says about the North African impact in Southern Iberia, so Bycroft`s arguments about the Early Middle Ages is still valid, even in the A flores-Bello 2021 study when he modeled iberians he wrote this description:

" Finally, 3-way admixture model was performed including Mozabite to represent the North African geneflow during the Islamic period in the Iberian Peninsula."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221003493

He did not write: "North African geneflow during the roman period...."

That is because the greatest impact in the whole iberia was in the islamic period, the EMA.

[Damião de Góis]

I am talking about the NA geneflow in whole Iberia not just in some zones, bro; I have read that study of Olalde and just says about the North African impact in Southern Iberia, so Bycroft`s arguments about the Early Middle Ages is still valid, even in the A flores-Bello 2021 study when he modeled iberians he wrote this description:

" Finally, 3-way admixture model was performed including Mozabite to represent the North African geneflow during the Islamic period in the Iberian Peninsula."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221003493

He did not write: "North African geneflow during the roman period...."

That is because the greatest impact in the whole iberia was in the islamic period, the EMA.

I thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period. Some samples came out after the Olalde study and they were very revealing:

https://i.imgur.com/aRRIN1m.png

These are samples from the late roman empire, and all of them score Taforalt. One of them (Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG) even socres very close to the modern portuguese sample in the bottom. So to say the greatest impact was in the islamic period is incorrect, it was already there before.

[HelloGuys]

I thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period. Some samples came out after the Olalde study and they were very revealing:

https://i.imgur.com/aRRIN1m.png

These are samples from the late roman empire, and all of them score Taforalt. One of them (Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG) even socres very close to the modern portuguese sample in the bottom. So to say the greatest impact was in the islamic period is incorrect, it was already there before.

" thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period."

I never denied that, did you read the thread?

And in a debate you would have to show studies and papers, so if you have a study that support your claim, I will read it without problem :)

[Damião de Góis]

" thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period."

I never denied that, did you read the thread?

And in a debate you would have to show studies and papers, so if you have a study that support your claim, I will read it without problem :)

These samples came out after the Olalde sample like i said. The Olalde study had litle or no IA samples from western Iberia so he took some liberties in his conclusions.

I get that for latin americans "the moors in iberia" are an important subject, but now with the information these roman samples provide you can conclude whatever you want, or you can ignore them and wait for the next study.

[HelloGuys]

These samples came out after the Olalde sample like i said. The Olalde study had litle or no IA samples from western Iberia so he took some liberties in his conclusions.

I get that for latin americans "the moors in iberia" are an important subject, but now with the information these roman samples provide you can conclude whatever you want, or you can ignore them and wait for the next study.

I hope so, there is 1 in 2019 (Bycroft), 2 studies in 2021 (Flores-Bello and Marina Silva) and the three concludes the same thing about the Islamic period in Iberia.

What we need is a new study focused on Roman Era in Iberia but this time using all the samples from that era, so we will see if they change their conclusion.

If a study comes out and you see it first than me, feel free to send it to update my info, bro :)

[axel.aleman]

These samples came out after the Olalde sample like i said. The Olalde study had litle or no IA samples from western Iberia so he took some liberties in his conclusions.

I get that for latin americans "the moors in iberia" are an important subject, but now with the information these roman samples provide you can conclude whatever you want, or you can ignore them and wait for the next study.

In the past with Shitcano, Hispanic and Spaghetti trolls this thread would be controversial

[Damião de Góis]

I hope so, there is 1 in 2019 (Bycroft), 2 studies in 2021 (Flores-Bello and Marina Silva) and the three concludes the same thing.

What we need is a new study focused on Roman Era in Iberia but this time using all the samples from that era, so we will see if they change their conclusion.

If a study comes out and you see it first than me, feel free to send it to update my info, bro :)

Ok man :D

I don't think it's plausible that the islamic period added an extra (and bigger, more significant) layer of Taforalt to what is being shown in the roman period in those samples, for us to arrive at the modern figure. But alright, you can wait for that study to make up your mind.

[Melkiirs]

I thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period. Some samples came out after the Olalde study and they were very revealing:

https://i.imgur.com/aRRIN1m.png

These are samples from the late roman empire, and all of them score Taforalt. One of them (Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG) even socres very close to the modern portuguese sample in the bottom. So to say the greatest impact was in the islamic period is incorrect, it was already there before.

North of the Tagus river scores less Iberomasurian than Modern Portuguese and South of the Tagus more during the Roman period. Since the Lusitanian and Gallaecian tribes closely interacted they may have shared Iberomasurian admixture to an extent, although no Roman Gallaecian sample exists to my knowledge. So even if some Iberomasurian admixture was introduced to Galicia during the Roman period, later migrations are necessary to account for the present levels of Iberomasurian in modern Galicians & Portuguese. Of course this could in part just be North-South evening of Roman-Era Iberomasurian and not necessarily new direct North African gene flow.

There is some genetic evidence for significant North African gene flow to Iberia during the Reconquista and in the case of Galicia even during the Suebi Kingdom. Based on this graph it could possibly be South-North migrations within Iberia or directly from North Africa to South Iberia.

https://i.ibb.co/x16PvHM/rspb20190471f04.gif

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.0471


"Both the dates and the origin of the gene-flow from the North African Mediterranean coast suggest a genetic impact of the Arab expansion in the Iberian Peninsula. The northwest of the Iberian Peninsula shows our oldest estimated date of North African admixture and is consistent with a single pulse of admixture around the time of the early arrival and conquest of Iberia by the Arabs. By contrast, our results suggest that the south of the Iberian Peninsula experienced more recent admixture and perhaps continuous gene-flow. In this case, the admixture is dated to the last periods of the Arab rule in the Peninsula in the second half of the fourteenth century. In 1212, the Christian Kingdoms became allies in the Battle of Navas de Tolosa and conquered all southern territories except the Nasrid Kingdom of Granada, which was conquered at the end of the fifteenth century. The inferred continuous gene-flow suggests that contact between the Arab and southern Iberian populations was not limited to that time period, and the estimated dates represent an upper bound on centuries of admixture (figure 4; electronic supplementary material, figures S5 and S6). Collectively, we can identify at least two different gene-flow events in the Iberian Peninsula for which the inferred dates correlate with Arab rule in the territory: an early concentrated event in the northwest of the Peninsula, and a continuous and more recent event in the south. Moreover, the North African populations that settled in the Peninsula during the Arab conquest may have had different origins (both in time and in geography), which could be indicative of different migration waves (electronic supplementary material, table S3).

In three of the four minor genetic clusters identified for the Iberian Peninsula (Iberian_Peninsula1, Iberian_Peninsula2 and Iberian_South), three-way admixture was detected between European-like (mainly Iberian), North African-like and Basque-like sources. Alternatively, in the case of the other minor cluster, Iberian_NorthWest, only two sources of admixture (North African-like and Iberian-like) were detected. This is in agreement with different admixture events occurring at different moments and in which different populations were involved. The fact that in the northwest of Iberia the admixture does not involved a Basque-like component, while it participated in the admixture events detected in the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, suggests different Iberian populations participated in geographically separated admixture events. This may reflect different waves of the Christian Kingdoms expansion."

[Beowulf]

North of the Tagus river scores less Iberomasurian than Modern Portuguese and South of the Tagus more during the Roman period. Since the Lusitanian and Gallaecian tribes closely interacted they may have shared Iberomasurian admixture to an extent, although no Roman Gallaecian sample exists to my knowledge. So even if some Iberomasurian admixture was introduced to Galicia during the Roman period, later migrations are necessary to account for the present levels of Iberomasurian in modern Galicians & Portuguese. Of course this could in part just be North-South evening of Roman-Era Iberomasurian and not necessarily new direct North African gene flow.

There is some genetic evidence for significant North African gene flow to Iberia during the Reconquista and in the case of Galicia even during the Suebi Kingdom. Based on this graph it could possibly be South-North migrations within Iberia or directly from North Africa to South Iberia.

https://i.ibb.co/x16PvHM/rspb20190471f04.gif

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.0471

It's me or the map is showing Baleares as being 1/4 Northwestern like? Any explanation for that? I don't remember any known important migration from those areas to here Mallorca for example :dunno:

[Damião de Góis]

North of the Tagus river scores less Iberomasurian than Modern Portuguese and South of the Tagus more during the Roman period.

It's more like: that one sample from north of the river tagus scores less iberomasurian than modern portuguese and those 3 samples from south of the river. How you proceed to conclude regional differences for the whole country based on those 4 samples is beyond me, especially since there was no political division in that part of the roman empire.


Since the Lusitanian and Gallaecian tribes closely interacted they may have shared Iberomasurian admixture to an extent, although no Roman Gallaecian sample exists to my knowledge. So even if some Iberomasurian admixture was introduced to Galicia during the Roman period, later migrations are necessary to account for the present levels of Iberomasurian in modern Galicians & Portuguese. Of course this could in part just be North-South evening of Roman-Era Iberomasurian and not necessarily new direct North African gene flow.

We would need lusitanian and gallaecian sample from before the roman empire to see that. These samples are most likely be romanized locals after centuries of roman empire. Again, very quick with the generalizations.


There is some genetic evidence for significant North African gene flow to Iberia during the Reconquista and in the case of Galicia even during the Suebi Kingdom. Based on this graph it could possibly be South-North migrations within Iberia or directly from North Africa to South Iberia.

https://i.ibb.co/x16PvHM/rspb20190471f04.gif

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.0471

I have no idea how you can conclude that. Do we have galician samples from those periods? No we don't. In fact i looked at their methodology and they used samples from the "1000 genomes project" which are modern samples (!).

You are the king of generalizations with little or no data.

[Melkiirs]

You are the king of generalizations with little or no data.

You are correct that this is more or less speculating with limited data, which is is a habit of mine. I don't mean to indicate proof or solid evidence at this point, just tentative possibilities.


It's more like: that one sample from north of the river tagus scores less iberomasurian than modern portuguese and those 3 samples from south of the river. How you proceed to conclude regional differences for the whole country based on those 4 samples is beyond me, especially since there was no political division in that part of the roman empire.

It is uncertain when the Iberomasurian admixture was first acquired in modern day Central Portugal so emphasizing Lusitanian-Gallaeci connection was just supposing if it dated back to Early Roman period. Even if it only came during the Late Roman period Southern Iberia including Southern Lusitania could have been more diverse with a fair number of African origin residents (including one Miroico sample Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman_oAfrica.SG). Northern Lusitania could have had fairly significant contact with both Southern Lusitania and Gallaecia leading to a potential genetic influence.


We would need lusitanian and gallaecian sample from before the roman empire to see that. These samples are most likely be romanized locals after centuries of roman empire. Again, very quick with the generalizations.

It was speculation. As mentioned above we don't know when Iberomasurian admixture first reached Northwest Iberia so it is unclear if interaction between Lusitanians and Gallaeci could be a significant factor in the first acquisition of Iberomasurian there. Conimbriga area was not even occupied by the Lusitanians before Roman conquest but by the Celtic Conii. If it was proven that Iberomasurian admixture was present in Early Roman Central Portugal it might be a plausible circumstance.


I have no idea how you can conclude that. Do we have galician samples from those periods? No we don't. In fact i looked at their methodology and they used samples from the "1000 genomes project" which are modern samples (!).

Even with Modern Iberian samples it is possible to estimate the period of North African gene flow with Globetrotter. The comparatively early concentration of gene flow in Galicia around the period between the end of Roman Iberia (Suebi & Visigothic) and early Al-Andalus suggests it could be in part due to the impact of Roman Era Iberomasurian and not Moorish related. In Andalusia the concentration of post-Roman North African gene flow being shifted towards the late Moorish period suggests an late episode of notable genetic contact with Northwest Africans.

[andrzej]

Cool bro, but you would need at least berbers/northwest africans, modern iberians, levantines and SSA as references base because if not the samples you want to plot does not have a correct shift in the PCA.

Like this (But I have made one for the whole world lol):

https://i.imgur.com/waolAiQ.png

Now I marked the IA, Al-Andalus and Roman to see them better:

https://i.imgur.com/fpyaC4A.png

I admit that it is better to use individuals rather than averages in a PCA, but this was the model I had on hand :lol: anyway it serves its purpose :thumb001:
How is it possible for the population of al-Andalus to cluster so close to Lebanese Muslims? The actual settlement of Berbers and Arabs never exceeded significant numbers vs. the native population. It would logistically be impossible, so I don't understand that..

[Jingle Bell]

It's more like: that one sample from north of the river tagus scores less iberomasurian than modern portuguese and those 3 samples from south of the river. How you proceed to conclude regional differences for the whole country based on those 4 samples is beyond me, especially since there was no political division in that part of the roman empire.



We would need lusitanian and gallaecian sample from before the roman empire to see that. These samples are most likely be romanized locals after centuries of roman empire. Again, very quick with the generalizations.



I have no idea how you can conclude that. Do we have galician samples from those periods? No we don't. In fact i looked at their methodology and they used samples from the "1000 genomes project" which are modern samples (!).

You are the king of generalizations with little or no data.


Yeah i agree, we dont have any samples from before Roman occupation to say surely that NA admix was alr present or no in NW Iberia

Conimbriga R10487: 261.5 CE (Roman-Pre Germanic)
Conimbriga R10488: 261.5 CE (Roman-Pre Germanic)

https://i.imgur.com/eN6Ly4j.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Iberia_300BC-en.svg/1200px-Iberia_300BC-en.svg.png

Both samples from Conimbriga are alr Romanized, they also have a visible East Med admix

This changed after the end of the Republic and the establishment of rule by emperors in Rome. After the Roman victory in the Cantabrian Wars in the north of the peninsula (the last rebellion against the Romans in Hispania), Augustus conquered the north of Hispania, annexed the whole peninsula to the Roman Empire and carried out an administrative reorganisation in 19 BC.

Conimbriga are the earliest samples from lusitan/gallaecia region and they are at least 200 years post roman occupation so im kinda sure that despite they for sure looks 80%+ or even i would risk say 90%+ West Iberia IA they arent for sure pure.


Also its consent that NA admix was introduced in Iberia during Early Roman era, and barely varies until late MA (Reconquista), in average NA admix in Conimbriga/MonteDaNora/Miroico samples have overall a similar NA % compared to Al-Andalus (10 - 16 CE samples from Spain) which indicates that few/none new NA admix was rly introduced in Iberia, by the contrary the NA blood remain the same basically

https://i.imgur.com/kU8Ckph.png

Muslim era samples having a avr of abt 10% Taforalt
Roman Era samples havinga a avr abt 7.6% Taforalt (conimbriga samples are the one with low NA admix)

[Damião de Góis]

Also its consent that NA admix was introduced in Iberia during Early Roman era, and barely varies until late MA (Reconquista), in average NA admix in Conimbriga/MonteDaNora/Miroico samples have overall a similar NA % compared to Al-Andalus (10 - 16 CE samples from Spain) which indicates that few/none new NA admix was rly introduced in Iberia, by the contrary the NA blood remain the same basically


Indeed, the math doesn't add up to conclude that "the greatest impact in the whole iberia was in the islamic period, the EMA."

[vader]

I thought it was common knowledge by now that NA was introduced in the roman period. Some samples came out after the Olalde study and they were very revealing:

https://i.imgur.com/aRRIN1m.png

These are samples from the late roman empire, and all of them score Taforalt. One of them (Portugal_Miroico_LateRoman.SG) even socres very close to the modern portuguese sample in the bottom. So to say the greatest impact was in the islamic period is incorrect, it was already there before.

we def. need more samples. But these are good exemplars for berber dna reaching contemporary Portuguese levels. Now my question would be... what ethnogenesized the dna so that we wont have many outliers like these roman samples had. I think moorish era contributed to creating a max, and min.

[andrzej]

Muslim era samples having a avr of abt 10% Taforalt
Roman Era samples havinga a avr abt 7.6% Taforalt (conimbriga samples are the one with low NA admix)
Out of curiosity what is the % of Taforalt for western/southern/central France since it seems these regions experienced admixture too?

[Damião de Góis]

we def. need more samples. But these are good exemplars for berber dna reaching contemporary Portuguese levels. Now my question would be... what ethnogenesized the dna so that we wont have many outliers like these roman samples had. I think moorish era contributed to creating a max, and min.

The samples with TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N are clearly foreigners, or new arrivals. Mordern portuguese have 0% TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N, so we should only be looking at the samples without it. The samples without it pretty much average what modern portuguese have today of NA. But yeah, we would need more samples to make a better conclusion regarding this.

[Jingle Bell]

Out of curiosity what is the % of Taforalt for western/southern/central France since it seems these regions experienced admixture too?

~0%
(https://imgur.com/xvxRL1K)

France for sure got no NA impact either from Roman or Middle Age

France its basically Gaul, with some Iberian/Germanic/Italic admixture but for sure mostly Gaul, the French IA samples which we have (A lot by the way) clust very close with modern Frenchs and sooooome to Basques/NE Iberians:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/kbUZ9hZ.png

[Jingle Bell]

Ik the main topic of Thread its abt NORTH AFRICAN influx in Iberia, but i also noticed some Northern euro/High Steppe influx:

https://i.imgur.com/OROitaL.png

Sadly just Spanish samples (But from a lot of places), but i think its enough representative but u guys can see a lot of variation from 16.8% - 28.2% Steppe, but the majority its around 20%

https://i.imgur.com/Mankpyo.png

again even in other very far places the avr its abt 20%(seens somewhat homogenized)

Now lets just jump some 300 years and see how even with a bigger foreinger admix (East med, NA) the steppe avr actually got higher (The expect was abt the inverse)

excluding heavily NA outliers individuals:
https://i.imgur.com/QASfYpL.png

Got up to 26% in avr, how? even with more NA admix (with average of abt 10% Guanche like even with the big variation)
So how that happened? that samples got more NA admix at the same time more N. Euro like too? and no its not From Suebi/Visigothic admix, for example the samples from Miroiço are from 257CE, waaaaaaaay before the earliest Suebi settlers (409 CE), Vandals (410 CE) and the Visigothics (475 CE), so that extra Steppe was not of Germanic origin so when its comes from? Conimbriga samples have about 27% Steppe (even with some NA & East Med admix) and still have waaay more than preceding IA samples from Iberia.

and modern Iberians have even more Steppe than their Roman Era ancestors (26% x 30%), thats sugest a another steppe influx (but that one prob related to visigothic settlers, reconsquistadores from France, Briton imigration (?), and overall european influx) but how explain that pre-germanic post-roman additional Steppe influx? when they were supossed to got less Steppe than their IA counterparts considering the additional NA/East Med influx?

a example adding a Steppe-Rich sample: (Even using Celtiberian Ia that was the most Steppe rich sample of IA)

https://i.imgur.com/R6YtyoK.png

Don u guys think im overlooking something, or that its plausible Iberia had some sort of Steppe-Rich admix after IA and before Visigothic era?

[Eurafricanid]

Ik the main topic of Thread its abt NORTH AFRICAN influx in Iberia, but i also noticed some Northern euro/High Steppe influx:

https://i.imgur.com/OROitaL.png

Sadly just Spanish samples (But from a lot of places), but i think its enough representative but u guys can see a lot of variation from 16.8% - 28.2% Steppe, but the majority its around 20%

https://i.imgur.com/Mankpyo.png

again even in other very far places the avr its abt 20%(seens somewhat homogenized)

Now lets just jump some 300 years and see how even with a bigger foreinger admix (East med, NA) the steppe avr actually got higher (The expect was abt the inverse)

excluding heavily NA outliers individuals:
https://i.imgur.com/QASfYpL.png

Got up to 26% in avr, how? even with more NA admix (with average of abt 10% Guanche like even with the big variation)
So how that happened? that samples got more NA admix at the same time more N. Euro like too? and no its not From Suebi/Visigothic admix, for example the samples from Miroiço are from 257CE, waaaaaaaay before the earliest Suebi settlers (409 CE), Vandals (410 CE) and the Visigothics (475 CE), so that extra Steppe was not of Germanic origin so when its comes from? Conimbriga samples have about 27% Steppe (even with some NA & East Med admix) and still have waaay more than preceding IA samples from Iberia.

and modern Iberians have even more Steppe than their Roman Era ancestors (26% x 30%), thats sugest a another steppe influx (but that one prob related to visigothic settlers, reconsquistadores from France, Briton imigration (?), and overall european influx) but how explain that pre-germanic post-roman additional Steppe influx? when they were supossed to got less Steppe than their IA counterparts considering the additional NA/East Med influx?

a example adding a Steppe-Rich sample: (Even using Celtiberian Ia that was the most Steppe rich sample of IA)

https://i.imgur.com/R6YtyoK.png

Don u guys think im overlooking something, or that its plausible Iberia had some sort of Steppe-Rich admix after IA and before Visigothic era?

That is deffinitely interesting, but the only thing I can think of is addicional ancestry comming from Gallia south into Iberia, because the IA ancestry deffinitely diminished, since the WHG went down, so it was a Steppe-rich ancestry without much WHG, like the others we've seen in IA Iberia.

https://i.imgur.com/9rhpVqk.png

[Damião de Góis]

Now lets just jump some 300 years and see how even with a bigger foreinger admix (East med, NA) the steppe avr actually got higher (The expect was abt the inverse)


In my opinion this comparison is not correct because it's comparing Spain_IA (who are from the northeast if i remember correctly) and these samples from the Roman Emprie in the modern Portugal region. We don't know if Portugal_IA samples from the same region were going to be "basques" as well. We don't have those samples, so their starting point could be different to begin with.

[andrzej]

~0%
(https://imgur.com/xvxRL1K)

France for sure got no NA impact either from Roman or Middle Age

France its basically Gaul, with some Iberian/Germanic/Italic admixture but for sure mostly Gaul, the French IA samples which we have (A lot by the way) clust very close with modern Frenchs and sooooome to Basques/NE Iberians:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/kbUZ9hZ.png
Two of those samples are from the extreme north and east, from what I've seen some NA admixture is found more in the west.

[Flashball]

Two of those samples are from the extreme north and east, from what I've seen some NA admixture is found more in the west.

Gaulish samples
https://pastebin.com/uHenViZP

Ethnic French (personnal database with genealogy), average taforalt > 0% :
https://pastebin.com/KVdw4BYn