Buddhist Philosophy

[Ar-Man]

As I see that people are interested in teachings of Lion from the family of Shakya, I want to open this thread to discuss everything related to Buddhism, instead of doing off-topics in other threads.

[arcticwolf]

Bro what format do you want for this thread? Do we start with the teachings itself? You know 4 Noble Truths, Independent Origination etc? I'll follow your lead, since you are the mastermind behind the idea. ;)

[arcticwolf]

And thanks to you for championing a truly Indo-European religion, founded by an Aryan! Great idea! Kudos!

[Hurrem sultana]

And thanks to you for championing a truly Indo-European religion, founded by an Aryan! Great idea! Kudos!

well most buddhists today are not aryans,so this is not an aryan religion

[beaver]

ВОСЬМАЯ БРАХМАНА

1. Тогда Вачакнави сказала: "Почтенные брахманы, я задам ему два вопроса. Если он ответит мне, то, поистине, никто из вас не превзойдет его в споре о Брахмане". – "Спрашивай, Гарги".

2. Она сказала: "Подобно тому как выступил бы сын героя из Каши, или Видехи, натянув ненатянутый лук и держа в руке две стрелы, [готовые] пронзить врага, – поистине, так, Яджнявалкья, я выступаю против тебя с двумя вопросами. Ответь мне на них". [Яджнявалкья сказал:] "Спрашивай, Гарги".

3. Она сказала: "На чем, Яджнявалкья, выткано вдоль и поперек то, что над небом, что под землей, что между небом и землей, что зовется и прошедшим, и настоящим, и будущим?"

4. Он сказал: "Гарги, то, что над небом, что под землей, что между небом и землей, что зовется и прошедшим, и настоящим, и будущим – это выткано вдоль и поперек на пространстве".

5. Она оказала: "Поклонение тебе, Яджнявалкья, за то, что ты разъяснил мне это! Приготовься к другому [вопросу]." – "Спрашивай, Гарги".

6. Она сказала: "На чем, Яджнявалкья, выткано вдоль и поперек то, что над небом, что под землей, что между небом и землей, что зовется и прошедшим, и настоящим, и будущим?"

7. Он сказал: "Гарги, то, что над небом, что под землей, что между небом и землей, что зовется и прошедшим, и настоящим, и будущим – это же выткано вдоль и поперек на пространстве". – "А на чем же выткано вдоль и поперек пространство?"

8. Он сказал: "Поистине, Гарги, брахманы называют это Непреходящим. [Оно] ни велико, ни мало, ни коротко, ни длинно, ни красно, [как огонь], ни текуче, [как влага], ни окрашено, ни темно, оно ни ветер, ни пространство, [ни с чем] не связано, без вкуса, без запаха, без глаз, без ушей, безо рта, [оно] не имеет меры, не имеет ничего ни внутри, ни снаружи. Оно никого не поедает, и его никто не поедает.

9. Поистине, по воле этого Непреходящего, Гарги, занимают свое место солнце и луна. Поистине, по воле этого Непреходящего, Гарги, занимают свое место небо и земля. Поистине, по воле этого Непреходящего, Гарги, занимают свое место мгновенья, часы, дни и ночи, половины месяца, месяцы, времена года, годы. Поистине, по воле этого Непреходящего, Гарги, одни реки текут с белых гор на восток, другие – на запад, каждая в свою сторону. Поистине, по воле этого Непреходящего, Гарги, люди восхваляют дающего, боги следуют за жертвующим, предки – за [приношением] дарви.

10. Поистине, Гарги, кто, не зная это Непреходящее, совершает в этом мире подношения, приносит жертвы, предается подвижничеству многие тысячи лет, [заслуги] того имеют конец. Поистине, Гарги, кто, не зная это Непреходящее, уходит из этого мира, тот несчастен. Но тот, Гарги, кто, зная это Непреходящее, уходит из этого мира, тот – брахман.

11. Поистине, Гарги, это Непреходящее не видно и видит, не слышно и слышит, не мыслимо и мыслит, не познается и познает. Нет другого, кто видит, кроме него; нет другого, кто слышит, кроме него; нет другого, кто мыслит, кроме него; нет другого, кто познает, кроме него. На этом непреходящем, Гарги, и выткано вдоль и поперек пространство".

12. Она сказала: "Почтенные брахманы, считайте великим [счастьем], если расстанетесь с ним, воздав ему поклонение. Поистине, никто из вас никогда не победит его в споре о Брахмане".

И тогда Вачакнави умолкла.

http://scriptures.ru/brihadar.htm

enjoy. I will tell you best physicists of the world are curious about this brahmana (#8)

[arcticwolf]

well most buddhists today are not aryans,so this is not an aryan religion

Slavic sister, it is founded by an Aryan. No trolling in this thread! :D Don't you have some cooking to do or something? :p

[mymy]

Nice thread, we needed it! I'll wait that someone start and then i'll join discussion.

Beaver, unfortunately, not all us speak Russian, although i think i understand about half.

[Phil75231]

Beaver, unfortunately, not all us speak Russian, although i think i understand about half.

Forget not knowing Russian! Some of us can't even read the Cyrillic Alphabet!

Beyond that, I know the First Noble Truth about suffering. Then that desire in and of itself is the thing that causes suffering. After that, that Nirvana is the goal (It's often interpreted as nothingness, but I don't know if that's the same as outright non-existence or if your consciousness exists in a kind of limbo where nothing else exists. Hard for me to discern).

I do know a Buddhist atheist - meaning he agrees with the philosophy, but not the supernatural aspects of it.

[Ar-Man]

ВОСЬМАЯ БРАХМАНА

1. Тогда Вачакнави сказала: "Почтенные брахманы, я задам ему два вопроса. Если он ответит мне, то, поистине, никто из вас не превзойдет его в споре о Брахмане". – "Спрашивай, Гарги".....

Thanks Beaver, but Upanishads are the part of Vedic literature, used by Astika schools :) they are not Related with Buddhism ;)

[Hurrem sultana]

Slavic sister, it is founded by an Aryan. No trolling in this thread! :D Don't you have some cooking to do or something? :p

go back to the cave :D


:p

[Artaxat]

All of us can benefit from such discussions. It is clear that the religion of many mindful people is influenced by Buddhism, it can somehow balance philosophy, psychology and science branches.

Aryan or not, hope we find out :thumb001:

[beaver]

Beaver, unfortunately, not all us speak Russian, although i think i understand about half.
It would be too hard for me to traslate but brahmana 8 surely should be somewhere in the Net. I will try to find but not now.

[mymy]

Once i read that Buddhism is only religion who admit their believes could be wrong and there is possibility the truth is different. From that time, i'm fascinated.

[beaver]

Thanks Beaver, but Upanishads are the part of Vedic literature, used by Astika schools they are not Related with Buddhism
I dont know what is this that can be related to Brahmana 8, but it is cult text among most smart physicists of the world.

[Armenian Bishop]

Thanks Beaver, but Upanishads are the part of Vedic literature, used by Astika schools :) they are not Related with Buddhism ;)

Katha Upanishad discussed OM, which is used in many Buddhist Chants. It breaks down OM into 3 sounds:
AH is associated with creation of life force.
UH is associated with sustaining life force.
MM is associated with an end and rebirth.

In Buddhism we have a chant of 6 realms:
OM
MAH
NEH
PAH
MEH
HUM

[beaver]

Eighth Brahmana

1. Then Vakaknavi said: “Venerable Brahmanas, I shall ask him two questions. If he will answer them, none of you, I think, will defeat him in any argument concerning Brahman”

Yagnavalkya said: “Ask, O Gargi.”

2. She said: “O Yagnavalkya, as the son of a warrior from the Kasis or Videhas might string his loosened bow, take two pointed foe-piercing arrows in his hand and rise to do battle, I have risen to fight thee with two questions. Answer me these questions.”

Yagnavalkya said: “Ask, O Gargi.”

3. She said: “O Yagnavalkya, that of which they say that it is above the heavens, beneath the earth, embracing heaven and earth, past, present, and future, tell me in what is it woven, like warp and woof?”

4. Yagnavalkya said: “That of which they say that it is above the heavens, beneath the earth, embracing heaven and earth, past, present, and future, that is woven, like warp and woof, in the ether (akasa).”

5. She said: “I bow to thee, O Yagnavalkya, who hast solved me that question. Get thee ready for the second.”

Yagnavalkya said: “Ask, O Gargi.”

6. She said: “O Yagnavalkya, that of which they say that it is above the heavens, beneath the earth, embracing heaven and earth, past, present, and future, tell me in what is it woven, like warp and woof?”

7. Yagnavalkya said: “That of which they say that it is above the heavens, beneath the earth, embracing heaven and earth, past, present, and future, that is woven, like warp and woof, in the ether.”

Gargi said: “In what then is the ether woven, like warp and woof?”

8. He said: “O Gargi, the Brahmanas call this the Akshara (the imperishable). It is neither coarse nor fine, neither short nor long, neither red (like fire) nor fluid (like water); it is without shadow, without darkness, without air, without ether, without attachment, without taste, without smell, without eyes, without ears, without speech, without mind, without light (vigour), without breath, without a mouth (or door), without measure, having no within and no without, it devours nothing, and no one devours it.”

9. “By the command of that Akshara (the imperishable), O Gargi, sun and moon stand apart 2. By the command of that Akshara, O Gargi, heaven and earth stand apart. By the command of that Akshara, O Gargi, what are called moments (nimesha), hours (muhurta), days and nights, halfmonths, months, seasons, years, all stand apart. By the command of that Akshara, O Gargi, some rivers flow to the East from the white mountains, others to the West, or to any other quarter. By the command of that Akshara, O Gargi, men praise those who give, the gods follow the sacrificer, the fathers the Darvi-offering.”

10. “Whosoever, O Gargi, without knowing that Akshara (the imperishable), offers oblations in this world, sacrifices, and performs penance for a thousand years, his work will have an end. Whosoever, O Gargi, without knowing this Akshara, departs this world, he is miserable (like a slave). But he, O Gargi, who departs this world, knowing this Akshara, he is a Brahmana.”

11. “That Brahman, O Gargi, is unseen, but seeing; unheard, but hearing; unperceived, but perceiving; unknown, but knowing. There is nothing that sees but it, nothing that hears but it, nothing that perceives but it, nothing that knows but it. In that Akshara then, O Gargi, the ether is woven, like warp and woof.”

12. Then said Gargi: “Venerable Brahmans, you may consider it a great thing, if you get off by bowing before him. No one, I believe, will defeat him in any argument concerning Brahman.” After that Vakaknavi held her peace.

Read more: Eighth Brahmana http://www.infoplease.com/t/rel/upanishads/brihadaranyaka3-8.html#ixzz1gAUngGeD

http://www.infoplease.com/t/rel/upanishads/brihadaranyaka3-8.html

[beaver]

All modern physicists are just crying somewhere in the mans' room.

[arcticwolf]

Once i read that Buddhism is only religion who admit their believes could be wrong and there is possibility the truth is different. From that time, i'm fascinated.

What they mean by that is one needs to perceive reality without distorting it, that is to say without adding or subtracting from the perception of it, to see it the way it really is. We will get to that, and how this is done.

[Zephyr]

Nothing extraordinary. Usually fear takes over during the last part of life when Death has knocked the door in a form of a sickness.

One would resort to chemical medications which would artificially extend the lifespan but then the organic balance would be disrupted, making the dying process even more difficult, because instead of reflecting on one's own life, and finding the OFF button, one will have to struggle with the pains and discomforts.

When the external respiration ceases, then is a great opportunity for liberation, the time span of this opportunity is defined as long as it takes to have a meal. Can be 2 seconds or 3 days.

If the mind fails to grasp the true nature of reality. Then after the cessation of internal breathing, one enters into a Bardo, very similar to dream state, thoughts manifest instantly as reality. Then one understands that he is in the intermediary state (dead), panic takes over, being partially disconnected from his physical body, past memories and life retrospection takes place. At any point before entering a womb a soul is able to get out of the process and there are precise techniques how to reverse these processes, but if one doesn't know them, then for example, being desperate to find a physical body, one will not hesitate to transmigrate into other lifeforms, thus, having lost the precious opportunity of being a human.

Depending on what one sowed in this life, will harvest in the other. If one had strong attachment to money and worldly possessions, very probably will look for a family who is wealthy. If one has a connection to a particular land, or a people, an unfinished business with a friend or a relative....
For an entertaining Saturday evning movie I recommend "Enter the Void"




True, and that is a pity. It reflects the degenerate times we live in attested by many religious opinions, even factual such as evident planetary degradation of land resources, oceans, atmosphere, extinction of species, pollution, industrialization. In other words, we are living mechanical, Robotic lives, heavily conditioned by media, which is driven by money, monopolized by some few power hungry blood suckers.



Transmigration has no limitations, souls can cross species, as well as dimensions. Have you tried to correlate the number of say, Apes killed in the previous couple of hundred years (you can caclulate such numbers by the area of pristine tropical forests destroyed, in africa, asia, america) plot the human population increase as well (from 1 to 7 billion). You will find an inverse correlation. It is far fetched and I say it for fun only (but there is no smoke without fire) :rolleyes2:
Usually many traditions even who accept reincarnation doctrine set limitations, for example, that humans reincarnate only in humans. Such as the Druze of Lebanon. A sect heavily meshed in Buddhism. But since they have a Judeo-Islamic component, they added such constraints.

The good news of all this is that the blind faith of Muslims, their absolute aversion to pork meat, and their hope for some virgins will totally block any possibility for them to cross over into European dimensions :D

So we only have to take care of the physical intrusion of Europe, it's Eastern front constitutes the largest land froniter. Israel so far is blocking the African gates. The Armenians Highlands however would deal with Arabian-Asian intrusion. But till now, this role has been given to Turkey, westernized at the bend of the century by Ataturk, but seems the winds are changing with pro-islamist developments. Let's see how it goes. :thumbs up

glad that we have such conversations, it stirs our minds :lightbul:

I honestly thank you for your reply and indeed this offtopic was the best part of the thread.

Well, I am fond of the teachings of Marcion of Sinope (a former neighbour of yours), which I consider to be spiritually a true path to Christendom in its purest form. The Cathars based their doctrine in Marcionism, though to an extreme extent that is very difficult to understand, and they followed an ascetic life that it's as scaring as intriguing.

Both catharian and budhist teachings stress the need to release ourselves from the material world of flesh in order to achieve peace with ourselves and see natural death as something good. However they differ in the aspect of reincarnation. Cathars didn't want to reincarnate because they considered this world a work of the false God.

[Phil75231]

Eighth Brahmana

Personally, I would have answered "time". It seems to qualify metaphorically for all the descriptions - unless the answer is self-referential (given the question asks about the past,present, and future). I wonder if that could be an answer. If not, I'll just suffer:D.

(I'm not intending to be a smart-ass. If I offended anyone, I apologize for it).

[arcticwolf]

Alright lets get to work first off the 4 Noble Truths.

Four Noble Truths

1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

Noble Eightfold Path

Three Qualities Eightfold Path
Wisdom (panna) Right View
Right Thought
Morality (sila) Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Meditation (samadhi) Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Contemplation

here they are in short, short version ;)

[arcticwolf]

Suffering is a huge word in Buddhism. The word dukkha ranges from the tiny, sublime discomfort mental or physical all the way to the most obvious forms of suffering like a heartbreak, deep depression or physical torture, and everything in between. Dukkha is an ever present fact of life, no one is free from it. So is this pessimistic, not really. Buddha has been compared to a medial doctor, he identified the illness, the cause, the cure and the way that leads to the cure. Buddhism is neither pessimistic nor it is optimistic, it is realistic.

The cause of dukkha is desire, or attachment, or more precisely clinging to that which we consider pleasant or desirable. We are engaged in an unending pursuit after pleasure and constant flight from that which is unpleasant or undesirable, and in the process we ignore most of the reality around us.

All existence is impermanent and impermanence is an occasion for suffering to take place.

So what's the cure? It's the development of wisdom, or in other words extinguishing ignorance in the mind. Ignorance is the failure to see reality the way it really is.

I'll keep my posts fairly short to make room for discussion ;)

[Piparskeggr]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically crude here; Buddhism is bullshit.

If I accidentally cut myself and suffer pain, it is not because of desire, it is because I have caused damaged to skin, flesh, nerves and (possibly) bone...

If I lose my house to foreclosure and suffer hardship, it is not because of desire, it is because my spending has exceeded my means, either due to economic circumstances outside my control, or by having made a bad choice of matching my income to future expenses...

If I grieve for a loved one who has died, it is not because of desire, it is because their loss has created a hole in my heart...

If you do not desire anything, you have no reason to go on breathing.

I live in this world, no amount of meditating or pretending that I am beyond this material realm is going to change that.

If I do not eat, I die.
If I do not drink, I die.
If I do not breath, I die.
Every human is thus.

If you think Buddhism changes that, you are delusional and should seek professional help.

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?

BTW, in college philosophy class I came up with answers that subverted several of the Koans.

[SaxonCeorl]

My Dad has been interested in Therevada Buddhism for 10 years or so, and it's definately had an impact on my general thought processes and awareness of myself in relation to the world.

In my opinion, integrating the "Four Noble Truths" into your mind will go a long way toward allowing you to take much greater control of your thoughts and emotions. I'm sure the "Eight-fold Path" is useful, but I think certain positive adjustments to one's mind are inevitable just by understanding the Four Noble Truths.

One of the most useful teachings of Buddhism is that you can detach from all things that are not self. In fact, I believe it is even taught that there is really no such thing as "self" in the first place (anattā). One of the most acute, wide-spread types of "suffering" comes from identifying with things that are not really a part of our "self," such as religion, career, class, gender, style, etc. The more you identify yourself with all sorts of outside influences that are out of your control, the less control you have over yourself and the more likely you are to experience feelings of anger and sadness when someone or something attacks the thing you are identifying with.

Personally, I operate somewhere in between "unenlightened" identification and attachment to things on the one hand, and comeplete detachment on the other. The knowledge that the things which I identify with are not really a part of me is never too far from my mind. This way, I can enjoy the positive feelings that can come with identification while having a relatively easy time distancing myself from them when necessary to avoid feelings of anger or sadness.

[SaxonCeorl]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically crude here; Buddhism is bullshit.

If I accidentally cut myself and suffer pain, it is not because of desire, it is because I have caused damaged to skin, flesh, nerves and (possibly) bone...

I think the idea is that you desire to no longer feel that physical pain. You fear and detest the pain, and wish for it to go away because it is unpleasant. I think a Buddhist might say that, if you can learn to simply step back and observe the pain, you can train your mind to no longer dread the sensations of pain and, therefore, transcend the suffering. Now, I'm not saying that's anywhere close to being easy, but I think it's what a Buddhist might say.


If I lose my house to foreclosure and suffer hardship, it is not because of desire, it is because my spending has exceeded my means, either due to economic circumstances outside my control, or by having made a bad choice of matching my income to future expenses...

No, you would not be suffering because you lost your house; you might be suffering because you desire to have not lost your house, and you desire to not be experiencing whatever hardships you are going through.


If I grieve for a loved one who has died, it is not because of desire, it is because their loss has created a hole in my heart...

It's because you desire for them to still be alive. Notice the theme here?


If you do not desire anything, you have no reason to go on breathing.

I think a Buddhist would just observe themselves living and continue to do so until they die. I don't think you have to avoid "doing things" and enjoying things; I think the idea is just that it can be useful to maintain awareness of the lack of true attachment between ourselves and that which we enjoy, in order to avoid feelings of "suffering."


I live in this world, no amount of meditating or pretending that I am beyond this material realm is going to change that.

If I do not eat, I die.
If I do not drink, I die.
If I do not breath, I die.
Every human is thus.

I agree! I don't see any discrepancy here, though.


If you think Buddhism changes that, you are delusional and should seek professional help.

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?

When Buddhist thinking started to come to the Western world, a lot of its more mystical, dramatic sects came to the forefront, notably Zen. Think Phil Jackson, incense sticks, and the like. I would agree that these "mystical" forms of Buddhism are BS. The more conservative, traditional ideas, though, are just practical, straightforward ideas about how to be in better control of your mind.

[arcticwolf]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically crude here; Buddhism is bullshit.

If I accidentally cut myself and suffer pain, it is not because of desire, it is because I have caused damaged to skin, flesh, nerves and (possibly) bone...

If I lose my house to foreclosure and suffer hardship, it is not because of desire, it is because my spending has exceeded my means, either due to economic circumstances outside my control, or by having made a bad choice of matching my income to future expenses...

If I grieve for a loved one who has died, it is not because of desire, it is because their loss has created a hole in my heart...

If you do not desire anything, you have no reason to go on breathing.

I live in this world, no amount of meditating or pretending that I am beyond this material realm is going to change that.

If I do not eat, I die.
If I do not drink, I die.
If I do not breath, I die.
Every human is thus.

If you think Buddhism changes that, you are delusional and should seek professional help.

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?

BTW, in college philosophy class I came up with answers that subverted several of the Koans.

Physical pain is not the same as suffering. While physical pain is unavoidable suffering is optional. Desire is the root but it's the act of clinging to something that causes the suffering when attachment breaks as it must at some point. Desire causes attachment and clinging.

Buddhism is not science, it is not industry, so we have to compare it with other spiritual paths. Buddhism sets one free, makes one responsible for ones plight, gives total control over ones destiny to an individual. It's one's own efforts that lead to release from the bondage of ignorance. In Buddhism there is no one to blame, no one to beg for favors or salvation, no one to save us, all is in the hands of an individual. It's scary at first, it's so much more comforting to know that someone has a plan and will save us from it all but that's just a dream. Buddhism is all about coming to grips with reality.

[Phil75231]

I think the point Saxon's trying to get across (correct me if I'm wrong), is that our minds FAR too often confuse desire/love with possessiveness - especially regarding this part that he said


One of the most acute, wide-spread types of "suffering" comes from identifying with things that are not really a part of our "self," such as religion, career, class, gender, style, etc. The more you identify yourself with all sorts of outside influences that are out of your control, the less control you have over yourself and the more likely you are to experience feelings of anger and sadness when someone or something attacks the thing you are identifying with..

I agree with this 100%, though I'm not a Buddhist. In fact, I didn't know anything about Buddhism at all when I figured this out. Sure, you'll be sad when someone dies. Sure it's going to be because you miss their presence in your life (my own mom died back in August and I still wish she were around).

The point is that we accept that - put bluntly - Shit Happens! Nothing is permanent. Things can and will happen to people, places, things, phenomena we deeply care about. Sure, enjoy and appreciate them, but DO NOT become attached to them (i.e. possessive of them). That is what sets us up for nasty falls, spiritually and psychologically speaking.

[Piparskeggr]

Physical pain is not the same as suffering. While physical pain is unavoidable suffering is optional. Desire is the root but it's the act of clinging to something that causes the suffering when attachment breaks as it must at some point. Desire causes attachment and clinging.

Buddhism is not science, it is not industry, so we have to compare it with other spiritual paths. Buddhism sets one free, makes one responsible for ones plight, gives total control over ones destiny to an individual. It's one's own efforts that lead to release from the bondage of ignorance. In Buddhism there is no one to blame, no one to beg for favors or salvation, no one to save us, all is in the hands of an individual. It's scary at first, it's so much more comforting to know that someone has a plan and will save us from it all but that's just a dream. Buddhism is all about coming to grips with reality.

Pain and suffering, physical and mental...2 sides of the same coin; neither is avoidable, both are natural to the human condition. Everyone feels pain, everyone suffers, to think otherwise to to avoid the responsibility of being fully human.

Obsession is clinging (I have mild Obsessive-Compulsive impulses), damaging.

Desire is natural, attachment is natural...if a parent is not attached to their child, how will the child survive?

As for who is responsible for my life...my dad ( a very devout Roman Catholic) always told me to look in the mirror for who is responsible for my life.

Seems like Buddhism contains no real earth shattering truth, no real freedom path...as compared to any other spirituality or philosophy.

Color me, unconvinced, especially in the milieu of a European mindset.

[beaver]

Personally, I would have answered "time". It seems to qualify metaphorically for all the descriptions - unless the answer is self-referential (given the question asks about the past,present, and future). I wonder if that could be an answer. If not, I'll just suffer.

(I'm not intending to be a smart-ass. If I offended anyone, I apologize for it).
:D Maybe you are just not a brahman?

I will try to explain the situation:

Brahmans were sitting around the fire at night

Yagnavalkya appeared from the forest and asked permission to join

Gargi (woman!!!) was also brahman and simultaneously something like a secretary

Further brahmans were trying to clear up if Yagnavalkya can take a place about the fire?

So, they asked very complicated questions (through Gargi) and he answered!

Finally he took the permission to sit along with other brahmans

[arcticwolf]

Pain and suffering, physical and mental...2 sides of the same coin; neither is avoidable, both are natural to the human condition. Everyone feels pain, everyone suffers, to think otherwise to to avoid the responsibility of being fully human.

That is not true, pain is unavoidable, but suffering is absolutely avoidable. You can love, be considerate and responsible and have no attachment whatsoever even to the closest ones to you. As a matter of fact your love will be purer, you actions will be wiser if you don't have any attachments.


Obsession is clinging (I have mild Obsessive-Compulsive impulses), damaging.

Desire is natural, attachment is natural...if a parent is not attached to their child, how will the child survive?

Again the same principle. It is natural to the untrained mind who has not awaken yet. Mind that is calm, clear and collected can see and do everything as well, as a matter of the fact better than not awaken mind can. Just to put you doubts to rest let me tell you this, Buddhist ethics is superior to any other ethical system I know. I won't discuss it right here at this time but I promise you it will come up in this thread in due time. Just hang in here.


As for who is responsible for my life...my dad ( a very devout Roman Catholic) always told me to look in the mirror for who is responsible for my life.

Seems like Buddhism contains no real earth shattering truth, no real freedom path...as compared to any other spirituality or philosophy.

Color me, unconvinced, especially in the milieu of a European mindset.

We will talk about the path shortly, all 8 aspects of it and more.

No one will try to convince you, and you are more than welcome to make your points. You are being more than helpful, please point out all the inconsistencies you can think of. Your input is very valuable and appreciated. Here are the words of Buddha himself: "Question everything, even the things I said, don't take anything on faith, but confirm it to be the truth" As you can see you do exactly what Buddha himself encouraged. Please keep it coming.

[arcticwolf]

Seems there is some confusion about pain and suffering, so let's clear it up. It is not the same thing, they are two different and distinct things. Pain is physical phenomena, suffering is purely mental. While pain can be the cause of suffering it does not have to be. Pain is unavoidable, but suffering is optional.

[Raskolnikov]

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?Martial arts, painting, gardening, poetry, printing, cultural relations, pretty much everything.

[Absinthe]

I had an interest for Buddhism via my sanskrit studies, then I met my ex who is a PhD in Japanese Buddhism and especially a sect called Shugendo, and also had the chance to discuss extensively with his research supervisor who had visited from the States.

I also had this idea, at first, of Buddhism as a comprehensive philosophical system. What I got from those talks, the jist, is that
a. Buddhism (in all forms) is a religion
b. Buddhism (in all forms) is an austere religion, just like Christianity, Islam, etc ;)

We Westerners have imported an idealized and westernized form of Buddhism (the same goes for Yoga), which is not at all austere and restrictive as, say, Christianity, and we cherry pick the aspects that we like the most, infatuated at the same time with the exoticness of the tradition which makes one feel very special and different from his/her peers. Due to the absence of a central deity, we tend to think of it as an allegorical philosophical system rather than a religion.

It has come to my understanding, though, via the two guys who have spent years of field work in Buddhist monasteries and settlements, that for the people whose native religion is Buddhism, it is as oppressive and restrictive as Christianity is for the Westerners. ;)
Hence a lot of Asians have converted to Christianity, Islam, etc.

That been said, I think it is a beautiful and very rich tradition and very worth of studying further. And it indeed has some awesome philosophical implications.

If you ever find yourself in the village Gruyeres in Switzerland, do not miss the chance to visit the Alain Bordier Foundation of Tibetan Art.
It's an unforgettable experience :thumbs

[Raskolnikov]

We Westerners have imported an idealized and westernized form of Buddhism (the same goes for Yoga), which is not at all austere and restrictive as, say, Christianity, and we cherry pick the aspects that we like the most, infatuated at the same time with the exoticness of the tradition which makes one feel very special and different from his/her peers. Due to the absence of a central deity, we tend to think of it as an allegorical philosophical system rather than a religion.Yes, it's true. Others say "Buddhism is atheism basically." Really ironic, considering where even the Counterculture-era people were coming from.

[Flintlocke]

Why is suffering so bad according to de Buddas? It's all in life, suffering, victory, defeat, pain, pleasure, happy, sad, and so on. When something is painful to you, the idea is to go about and change the situation to pleasant. Not much mystery there.

[d3cimat3d]

Buddhism is a bunch of quackery. Hinduism's core teachings, minus all the 8 armed gods > Buddhism.

[Raskolnikov]

Why is suffering so bad according to de Buddas? It's all in life, suffering, victory, defeat, pain, pleasure, happy, sad, and so on. When something is painful to you, the idea is to go about and change the situation to pleasant. Not much mystery there.
Still more at "grasping is bad", not dark emotions.

[Absinthe]

Why is suffering so bad according to de Buddas? It's all in life, suffering, victory, defeat, pain, pleasure, happy, sad, and so on. When something is painful to you, the idea is to go about and change the situation to pleasant. Not much mystery there.

It is not "bad".

Suffering stems from ignorance of the true nature of things. Ignorance is what keeps you within the cycle of perpetual reincarnations.

In order to escape that cycle and attain Nirvana (bliss) you must be enlightened, and that happens - roughly speaking- by working towards breaking the ignorance and achieving knowledge.

So suffering is a predicament, a part of the process, it's not seen as bad or good.


Buddhism is a bunch of quackery. Hinduism's core teachings, minus all the 8 armed gods > Buddhism.

Wow, you seem to be well-read and knowledgeable about the subject :rolleyes:

[Flintlocke]

Believe in Nirvana and cycle of perpetual reincarnations, I don't :cool:

[d3cimat3d]

Wow, you seem to be well-read and knowledgeable about the subject :rolleyes:

Well let me tell you, I have no desires at all, and yet I have not reached Nirvana. I just sit here looking at this beer can and care about nothing, is this Nirvana?

[Absinthe]

is this Nirvana?

"Why do you want to know? You might not like it."

:p

[Breedingvariety]

About Buddhism

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.

Atisha (11th century Tibetan Buddhist master)
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/index.html

[Artaxat]

I honestly thank you for your reply and indeed this offtopic was the best part of the thread.

Well, I am fond of the teachings of Marcion of Sinope (a former neighbour of yours), which I consider to be spiritually a true path to Christendom in its purest form. The Cathars based their doctrine in Marcionism, though to an extreme extent that is very difficult to understand, and they followed an ascetic life that it's as scaring as intriguing.

Both catharian and budhist teachings stress the need to release ourselves from the material world of flesh in order to achieve peace with ourselves and see natural death as something good. However they differ in the aspect of reincarnation. Cathars didn't want to reincarnate because they considered this world a work of the false God.

I find it agrreable that Marcion of Sinope has rejected the Hebrew God YHVH, which even the most uneducated person will notice was an angry, violent and merciless God (not to mention that was only the God of the Jews). I don't understand why and sane person would believe in.

Also reminds me of Meister Eckhart von Hochheim

I always advocate the removal of the Old Testament from the Bible. But on the other hand, there is some narrative information which I find valuable.

Such idealistic examples of Early Christians prove that it is possible to live the true doctrine of the Christ without all the dogmatic distortions of the church institution. That's why the chrch persecuted them and declared hem heretics.

For Europe, a blend of neo-platonic, Heathan, Christian teachings would be optimal (in my opinion) a new thread? What kind of Religion you like to see in Europe?

I think even the dualistic thought is now outdated, one cannot speak in our times about flesh rejection, world denying etc...now the focal point of new religions should be "awareness", awareness of the flesh, the spirit, the world, the stars, awareness of life, death, awareness of the internet :D....and put an end to distraction. Distraction being a mental state

Note: in Buddhism there are so called nine vehicles. I list the extremes lowest and highest vehicles.

Sravakayana "Vehicle of the Listeners" , "Inferior Vehicle"
These people are described as having weak faculties, following the Śrāvaka Dharma, being set on their own liberation, and cultivating detachment in order to attain liberation
Typically, anaverage Christian, Muslim or Buddhist who reads only the given scriptures, follows exoteric mass rituals, like sunday church, does not question the teachings are considered to fall under this category...

Ati Yoga better known as Dzogchen "Great Perfection"
from whose perspective the ultimate nature of all sentient beings is said to be pure, all-encompassing, primordial awareness or naturally occurring timeless awareness.
To be undistracted, is the same as being in the state of Dzogchen.


Between these vehicles are many others as well such as outer tantras, transformation methods and so on. Each individual might have a certain preference.

Most important practice in Dzogchen cannot be overstated, Guru Yoga, simply vocalization of letter A and releasing the tensions at the eyes, eyes loosely opened and not focusing on a point. Concentration practice can be achieve by using a visual print of letter A, and then proceeding without any visual aid (simply by gazing at space)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Dzogchen_A.png

[The Alchemist]

I love the Lotus Sutra, and other important teachings from other "Masters" like Eckhart Tolle: his masterpiece, "The power of now" is one of the most important books in my life. I love the buddhist vision of life in all senses, i always felt close to it, even if i don't consider myself as a "Buddhist", simply cause i dislike labels. I also like Jesus Christ's teachings.

[The Alchemist]

Anyway, besides the countless theories, in my everyday life i just observe my mind as more as possible, and let bad feeling and thoughts go........

[Artaxat]

Anyway, besides the countless theories, in my everyday life i just observe my mind as more as possible, and let bad feeling and thoughts go........

That's the trick, to let go the thoughts and not getting into bad trips :D one cannot stop the mind from thinking, but can avoid chasing after negative thoughts like a dog.

In Dzogchen, "thoughts" are symbolically represented as ocean waves, only at the depths of the ocean one can find peace and tranquility, but at the surface you always get some wave forms.

To cease the thinking activity, one must dive deep.

I wish I could LOL

[The Alchemist]

What they mean by that is one needs to perceive reality without distorting it, that is to say without adding or subtracting from the perception of it, to see it the way it really is. We will get to that, and how this is done.

The mind simply can't see reality, cause it can't lead without being projected in the past and in the future. Reality is just the present moment, all the rest is an illusion of our mind.

[The Alchemist]

That's the trick, to let go the thoughts and not getting into bad trips :D one cannot stop the mind from thinking, but can avoid chasing after negative thoughts like a dog.

In Dzogchen, "thoughts" are symbolically represented as ocean waves, only at the depths of the ocean one can find peace and tranquility, but at the surface you always get some wave forms.

To cease the thinking activity, one must dive deep.

I wish I could LOL

Yeah, you're right, we can just control our automatic processes of thought just observing them and being present in front of them. There's nothing else to understand.

[Ushtari]

I have seen something you havent :coffee:


http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/001/987/fyeah.jpg?1269221733

[Ar-Man]

What great advances has Buddhism produced that have benefited mankind, save platitudes and funny, fat-bellied statuary?


Those are Taoist ideas that have been implanted in Chan Buddhism (Chinese) you will never see chubby Buddhas in India or Tibet.



We Westerners have imported an idealized and westernized form of Buddhism (the same goes for Yoga), which is not at all austere and restrictive as, say, Christianity, and we cherry pick the aspects that we like the most, infatuated at the same time with the exoticness of the tradition which makes one feel very special and different from his/her peers. Due to the absence of a central deity, we tend to think of it as an allegorical philosophical system rather than a religion.


I disagree Sis.
The modern Westerners often do the most useless and even dumb things in the world. For example, we prefer keeping small decorative dogs in our pockets rather than have a child. We smoke, even after knowing that there are more than 40 radiocative and 400 toxic things inside of a cigarette. It seems we have lost our natural instincts for self-preservation. We surrender our countries to alien invaders...As you mentioned we have taken from Buddhims the most superficial and useless aspects, because of an element of exoticism of that tradition(as you said).
I am mentioning all of those bad things because you must first of all accept your flaws and bad habits in order to evolve and overcome them.

I personally do not consider Buddhism as a religion since this philosophical system is atheistic & has elements that would even fit in modern quantum physics. One of the most cited words of Buddha are "Never believe in my words, but analyze and ascertain everything for yourself through personal experience."


Voila, one of the Fist Serious western Buddhist Master, Lama Anagarika Govinda (born Ernst Lothar Hoffman), who become a great lama of Tibetan Gelug Tradition.

http://www.boeddhistischeomroep.nl/uploadedImgs/radio_lama_Anagarika_Gov.jpg

[Hurrem sultana]

soon i will convert to buddhism :P

[Hurrem sultana]

btw interesting,only european buddhist country,Kalmykia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmykia

[beaver]

btw interesting,only european buddhist country,Kalmykia
:D Buddha was our son of a bitch - IE. And his ideas were IE ideas - from "brahmans" - e.g. the world isnt a world of subjects, the world is the world of relations between events.

Mongols then adopted all this

[The Alchemist]

I just have to thank the Buddha and all those philosophies if i'm still alive. I've been deeply depressed for many years, i didn't want to live anymore, but this wise knowledge helped me finding myself. Now that i've found myself, i feel complete and i don't need anything else in this world.

[Queen of Swords]

I’m pleased to see this thread, as I’ve had an interest in Buddhism for years, and even studied under the tutelage of two Tibetan lamas for a period of time and was involved with two Buddhist Sanghas.
Arctic Wolf and Saxon Ceorl both provided sound explanations for some of the terminology one encounters in Buddhism. For the first noble truth, some teachers also say “all life is suffering”.

It’s notable that the general belief in Buddhism is that, one does not turn to an agent (such as “God”) outside of oneself for salvation or happiness. This does not come from some external source. One must find this within through a practice of meditation, “self”-observation and discipline (a much more difficult practice than it seems). This is an arduous practice that takes years, and really a lifetime.

The meanings behind Buddhist philosophical concepts are sometimes difficult for Westerners to grasp because of the cultural differences and the differences in the way that we views concepts like “desire” and “attachment.”

In Tibetan Buddhism, repression of emotions is not the objective; it’s more about learning how to deal with emotions so that the negative emotions don’t control you. Thus, for the lay practitioner, it’s not so much about completely eradicating attachment and desire as it is about not being controlled by those elements.

[arcticwolf]

Great posts every one. Now that we've touched on the first 3 Noble Truths, it's time to talk about the 4th One, but before we do we need to talk about the Three Universal Characteristics of Existence, understanding them will help to understand 8 aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path, here they are:


Three Characteristics of Existence

1. Impermanence (anicca)
2. Unsatisfactoriness (dukkha)
3. Selflessness/No-Self (anatta)

The first one Impermanence is self evident, everything we know of has a beginning, life span and in the end it dies (ends ). Nothing lasts forever, not a single thing.

The second one Unsatisfactoriness refers to the ever present feeling of nothing being able to make us happy permanently, as everything changes constantly including our own mentality.

The third one No-Self tells us there is nothing solid or unique that makes a being separate entity. All physical and mental processes that make up a being are impermanent and impersonal. In other words there is no soul, there is no enduring entity, there is a lot of processes both mental and physical that exist because of the underlying causes. This is a bit harder to understand at first than the other two characteristics.

So here they are, what do you think? ;)

[SaxonCeorl]

Seems there is some confusion about pain and suffering, so let's clear it up. It is not the same thing, they are two different and distinct things. Pain is physical phenomena, suffering is purely mental. While pain can be the cause of suffering it does not have to be. Pain is unavoidable, but suffering is optional.

Would anybody like to comment more on this? I find the potential to remove suffering from pain via Buddhist teachings to be very interesting. Buddhists would tell you to focus on and observe the pain. What do the pain sensations feel like? Where in your body are they? Are they stable, increasing, or decreasing? What kind of thoughts and reactions is this pain causing in the mind and body? I think that, by truly learning how to concentrate on the pain in a deep, detached manner, once can remove a lot of the suffering and dread that usually comes with physical pain.

I sometimes "practice" this by pressing my back against a cold surface. This is a good, safe exercise because doing so provides "discomfort" without any potential for physical harm (i.e., don't try this by putting your hand on the stove). I just try to observe the feelings of coldness and, eventually, they go away because my back has warmed up the surface. After a while, you can reach a state where you no longer dread the idea of going through something physically uncomfortable.

I remember a time when I truly put this to use is an actual situation. I sprained my ankle quite badly playing basketball and the pain was pretty intense. Rather than writhe around and cry out, I just laid motionless on the ground and observed the sensations. I remember thinking thoughts like "wow, this really hurts.....the pain seems to be stabilizing.....the pain seems to be dissipating now; it will probably go away soon."

Now obviously, pain is an important physical sensation that alerts us to potential physical harm, and it's obvious that you should try to avoid physical harm. I only mean this as a means of dealing with inevitable pain, which we all have to deal with at various times in our lives.

[Ar-Man]

In Tibetan Buddhism, repression of emotions is not the objective; it’s more about learning how to deal with emotions so that the negative emotions don’t control you. Thus, for the lay practitioner, it’s not so much about completely eradicating attachment and desire as it is about not being controlled by those elements.

Good point Sis.
As you're Familiar with Tibetan Tradition, I'll say that the method that the one will use for dealing with emotions, will change depending of the yana, that the one is following.

Shravakayana & Pratekabuddhayana- through elimination
Bodhisattvayana - through accumulation
Tantrayana - through transformation
Mahati-Dzogchen - through direct perception of Reality

The important point in teachings of Buddha is that all his words are considered as upaya("Expedient Means", this term is generally used in Mahayana Buddhism), and not the Supreme Truth or Reality Himself, which comes when the one achieves his Path .

Gautama Buddha elucidates upaya to his disciple Shariputra, in the Lotus Sutra.


Shariputra, suppose that in a certain town in a certain country there was a very rich man. He was far along in years and his wealth was beyond measure. He had many fields, houses and menservants. His own house was big and rambling, but it had only one gate. A great many people--a hundred, two hundred, perhaps as many as five hundred--lived in the house. The halls and rooms were old and decaying, the walls crumbling, the pillars rotten at their base, and the beams and rafters crooked and aslant. At that time a fire suddenly broke out on all sides, spreading through the rooms of the house. The sons of the rich man, ten, twenty perhaps thirty, were inside the house. When the rich man saw the huge flames leaping up on every side, he was greatly alarmed and fearful and thought to himself, I can escape to safety through the flaming gate, but my sons are inside the burning house enjoying themselves and playing games, unaware, unknowing, without alarm or fear. The fire is closing in on them, suffering and pain threaten them, yet their minds have no sense of loathing or peril and they do not think of trying to escape! "Shariputra, this rich man thought to himself, I have strength in my body and arms. I can wrap them in a robe or place them on a bench and carry them out of the house. And then again he thought, this house has only one gate, and moreover it is narrow and small. My sons are very young, they have no understanding, and they love their games, being so engrossed in them that they are likely to be burned in the fire. I must explain to them why I am fearful and alarmed. The house is already in flames and I must get them out quickly and not let them be burned up in the fire! Having thought in this way, he followed his plan and called to all his sons, saying, 'You must come out at once!" But though the father was moved by pity and gave good words of instruction, the sons were absorbed in their games and unwilling to heed them. They had no alarm, no fright, and in the end no mind to leave the house. Moreover, they did not understand what the fire was, what the house was, what the danger was. They merely raced about this way and that in play and looked at their father without heeding him. "At that time the rich man had this thought: the house is already in flames from this huge fire. If I and my sons do not get out at once, we are certain to be burned. I must now invent some expedient means that will make it possible for the children to escape harm. The father understood his sons and knew what various toys and curious objects each child customarily liked and what would delight them. And so he said to them, 'The kind of playthings you like are rare and hard to find. If you do not take them when you can, you will surely regret it later. For example, things like these goat-carts, deer-carts and ox-carts. They are outside the gate now where you can play with them. So you must come out of this burning house at once. Then whatever ones you want, I will give them all to you!' "At that time, when the sons heard their father telling them about these rare playthings, because such things were just what they had wanted, each felt emboldened in heart and, pushing and shoving one another, they all came wildly dashing out of the burning house.

[arcticwolf]

Would anybody like to comment more on this? I find the potential to remove suffering from pain via Buddhist teachings to be very interesting. Buddhists would tell you to focus on and observe the pain. What do the pain sensations feel like? Where in your body are they? Are they stable, increasing, or decreasing? What kind of thoughts and reactions is this pain causing in the mind and body? I think that, by truly learning how to concentrate on the pain in a deep, detached manner, once can remove a lot of the suffering and dread that usually comes with physical pain.

I sometimes "practice" this by pressing my back against a cold surface. This is a good, safe exercise because doing so provides "discomfort" without any potential for physical harm (i.e., don't try this by putting your hand on the stove). I just try to observe the feelings of coldness and, eventually, they go away because my back has warmed up the surface. After a while, you can reach a state where you no longer dread the idea of going through something physically uncomfortable.

I remember a time when I truly put this to use is an actual situation. I sprained my ankle quite badly playing basketball and the pain was pretty intense. Rather than writhe around and cry out, I just laid motionless on the ground and observed the sensations. I remember thinking thoughts like "wow, this really hurts.....the pain seems to be stabilizing.....the pain seems to be dissipating now; it will probably go away soon."

Now obviously, pain is an important physical sensation that alerts us to potential physical harm, and it's obvious that you should try to avoid physical harm. I only mean this as a means of dealing with inevitable pain, which we all have to deal with at various times in our lives.

I don't think you need an explanation as you have good understanding as to the difference between pain and suffering. It is all about the mind's attitude towards the sensation of pain. You still gonna feel it, it's gonna physically hurt, the question is how will you relate to the pain. Nothing really changes in the whole experience of feeling the pain besides the state of the mind at that time. Understanding the No-Self characteristic helps here as the ego's influence is much diminished. Reflecting on all 3 characteristics helps put the whole experience of pain in its proper prospective and concentrate on remedial steps rather than suffering.

[Ar-Man]

Would anybody like to comment more on this? I find the potential to remove suffering from pain via Buddhist teachings to be very interesting. Buddhists would tell you to focus on and observe the pain. What do the pain sensations feel like? Where in your body are they? Are they stable, increasing, or decreasing? What kind of thoughts and reactions is this pain causing in the mind and body? I think that, by truly learning how to concentrate on the pain in a deep, detached manner, once can remove a lot of the suffering and dread that usually comes with physical pain.


To understand it more clearly, we must go in details.
The Buddha discussed three kinds/levels of dukkha or suffering:
Dukkha-dukkha (pain of pain) is the obvious sufferings of:
pain, illness, old age, death, bereavement

Viparinama-dukkha (pain of alteration) is suffering caused by change:
violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last

Sankhara dukkha (pain of formation) is a subtle form of suffering arising as a reaction to qualities of conditioned things, including the skandhas, the factors constituting the human mind, basically it's the pain caused by Ignorance(sansk. Avidiya ).

[Ar-Man]

What you say if we create debates ... ? :rolleyes2: :D
It's the best way to learn and exercise our minds, we have at least 2 Dzogchenpas and 2 Theravadins :wink

[Svipdag]

I have asked this question of every Buddhist I have met and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. Two important principles in Buddhism are
anatman and reincarnation.

Anatman asserts that there is no persistent entity such as the atman or the jiva, or the soul. Reincarnation asserts that the atman repeatedly suffers
embodiment and dissolution of the body, i.e. death and rebirth in a potentially endless cycle, samsara, until the atman is liberated from samsara through moksha, or self-realisation.

My question, then, is "If there is no persistent entity, what is there to reincarnate ? " The usual answer which I receive is "the life force". Then I ask
"Is the life force individualised or indivisible ?" I am usually told that it is individualised. "Then, is not the individualised life force a persistent entity ?"
I am then assured earnestly "Oh no, it is not the same thing at all. It is something entirely different." I have never yet been told what that "something entirely different" is.



"Da liegt ein' Aal unter dem Steine." - Anon Y. Mous

[The Alchemist]

Me too, i'm curious if you, members of TA interested in Buddhism, do you really believe in immortality. To be honest, i don't question myself about that much, so i try to think as less as possible. I think there's no answer for it, so everyone has got his own truth and doesn't have to accept dogmas without a critical sense. So, me i don't have an answer to my own question.

[arcticwolf]

I have asked this question of every Buddhist I have met and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. Two important principles in Buddhism are
anatman and reincarnation.

Anatman asserts that there is no persistent entity such as the atman or the jiva, or the soul. Reincarnation asserts that the atman repeatedly suffers
embodiment and dissolution of the body, i.e. death and rebirth in a potentially endless cycle, samsara, until the atman is liberated from samsara through moksha, or self-realisation.


Anatman is No-Self or no soul, that's correct. Reincarnation is a concept from Hinduism, in Buddhism there is Rebirth. Reincarnation is eternal soul being reincarnated into a different form. That's correct as well.


My question, then, is "If there is no persistent entity, what is there to reincarnate ? " The usual answer which I receive is "the life force". Then I ask
"Is the life force individualised or indivisible ?" I am usually told that it is individualised. "Then, is not the individualised life force a persistent entity ?"
I am then assured earnestly "Oh no, it is not the same thing at all. It is something entirely different." I have never yet been told what that "something entirely different" is.

Rebirth is more along the lines of cause and effect, something like one ball hitting another, the first one stops to move while the energy is transfered to the other ball which begins to move. Now a bit more technical explanation. Consciousness does not transmigrate from the previous existence but comes into existence by means of conditions included in the previous existence ( Karma ). Reborn person is not the same as the one who has died, nor is that person entirely different than the one who died. It is a continuation of the ever changing stream of consciousness, shaped by the law of Karma. In other words even though the effects of the previous causes have expired, if new causes have arisen there will be effects of these new causes.

[Queen of Swords]

Would anybody like to comment more on this? I find the potential to remove suffering from pain via Buddhist teachings to be very interesting. Buddhists would tell you to focus on and observe the pain. What do the pain sensations feel like? Where in your body are they? Are they stable, increasing, or decreasing? What kind of thoughts and reactions is this pain causing in the mind and body? I think that, by truly learning how to concentrate on the pain in a deep, detached manner, once can remove a lot of the suffering and dread that usually comes with physical pain.




Yes, this is exactly the idea. It seems that you already have a good understanding. Along with this observation and experience of the pain comes an understanding also of impermanence. We see that emotions, sensations, feelings, unstable as they are, come and go from moment to moment. They often arise and dissolve like mist. Yet, pain and suffering are inevitabilities of existence.

There are a myriad of ways in which we actually create more suffering for ourselves. For example, consider how many times we have clung to a wrong done to us by another; we replay this wrong over and over in our minds, obsessing over what’s been done to us, thereby creating more and more suffering for ourselves. This is how the mind can work like a trickster, enslaving us even more to our negative emotions.

[arcticwolf]

Me too, i'm curious if you, members of TA interested in Buddhism, do you really believe in immortality. To be honest, i don't question myself about that much, so i try to think as less as possible. I think there's no answer for it, so everyone has got his own truth and doesn't have to accept dogmas without a critical sense. So, me i don't have an answer to my own question.

Gretel, there is no personal truth, there are different opinions and interpretations of what the truth is, which in no way changes the fact that the truth is just the truth, independent of any opinion. If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if there is Non-Existence or its opposite Eternity. As I am not a fully enlightened being I simply do not know for sure, but here is what Buddha said about it in reference to Nibbana ( in Pali ) or Nirvana ( in Sanskrit ). Nibbana is that which is uncreated, unconditioned a state beyond Existence and Non-Existence. According to Buddha both Existence and Non-Existence are just a mirage, they are not the ultimate reality. For all practical purposes in the realm of duality we live in it's not a question I would spend much time pondering. The important thing here is to progress on the path to heal/perfect/develop the mind. It's really crucial to prioritize what can be done with little time we have here to maximize the return on investment, so to speak ;)

[The Alchemist]

Gretel, there is no personal truth, the are different opinions and interpretations of what the truth is, which in no way changes the fact that the truth is just the truth, independent of any opinion. If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if there is Non-Existence or its opposite Eternity. As I am not a fully enlightened being I simply do not know for sure, but here is what Buddha said about it in reference to Nibbana ( in Pali ) or Nirvana ( in Sanskrit ). Nibbana is that which is uncreated, unconditioned a state beyond Existence and Non-Existence. According to Buddha both Existence and Non-Existence are just a mirage, they are not the ultimate reality. For all practical purposes in the realm of duality we live in it's not a question I would spend much time pondering. The important thing here is to progress on the path to heal/perfect/develop the mind. It's really crucial to prioritize what can be done with little time we have here to maximize the return on investment, so to speak ;)

I agree with you, that's why i said i don't spend my time wondering about it. My truth is: when my death will come, i'll know it. So, it's not a problem ;)

[Ar-Man]

Anatman asserts that there is no persistent entity such as the atman or the jiva, or the soul. Reincarnation asserts that the atman repeatedly suffers
embodiment and dissolution of the body, i.e. death and rebirth in a potentially endless cycle, samsara, until the atman is liberated from samsara through moksha, or self-realisation.

My question, then, is "If there is no persistent entity, what is there to reincarnate ? " The usual answer which I receive is "the life force". Then I ask
"Is the life force individualised or indivisible ?" I am usually told that it is individualised. "Then, is not the individualised life force a persistent entity ?"
I am then assured earnestly "Oh no, it is not the same thing at all. It is something entirely different." I have never yet been told what that "something entirely different" is.


Actually there's many different ways to answer to this question, depending of the philosophical school, but I'll try to give the general answer.

Firstly the term Anatman is a negation of Atman, concept that you can find in the literature of Schools like Samkhya etc...
In Buddhism we use the term Mindstream, which is the moment-to-moment "continuum" (Sanskrit: saṃtāna) of awareness.
The Mindstream(Vijna-Skandha) doesn't have existence in Space, but in time, to understand what it is, imagine a river, it's the best example, the river is never the same, because his components change all the time, but it's the same continuum. So Vijna-Skandha pass from one body to another as a permanent flow, you also must know that your Ego also is never the same, as your body ;) Modern psychology confirms that!

Well we can find more details and complicated explanations if we look on the subject from Yogachara's or Atiyoga-Dzogchen's point of view.

[Queen of Swords]

Gretel and arcticwolf, I agree.

The Buddha explained insistence on dwelling on things such as the origins of the universe and other such questions like this:

"He is like a man shot by a poison arrow who — rather than have it removed as it’s killing him and time is of the essence — first demands to know what type of arrow it was, what poison was used, who shot it, why did they shoot it, how much force did they use, where did they come from and all sorts of other interesting but useless questions to the main need of saving his life."

In other words, we can never really know the answer to all the difficult questions like whether there's an afterlife, whether there's a god/gods, or whether we're immortal (through our consciousness), so why spend time dwelling on it?

[Ar-Man]

Nibbana is that which is uncreated, unconditioned a state beyond Existence and Non-Existence.

By the way bro, what's the point of view of Theravada on the subject of Mindstream. After the anupadisesa-nibbana there's something that continue to exists, or the consciousness have no more existence, ie there's Buddha after Parinirvana or not ?

[arcticwolf]

By the way bro, what's the point of view of Theravada on the subject of Mindstream. After the anupadisesa-nibbana there's something that continue to exists, or the consciousness have no more existence, ie there's Buddha after Parinirvana or not ?

Asking me this question is unfair, I'm no Buddha .... yet. :p

The answer is the same at least in Theravada. There is kind of uncreated/unconditioned awareness after the release according to the Buddha, not sure how it manifests itself. I am uncertain what that means and at this point I don't spend much time thinking about it, as I have much work left to do to uproot my very own ignorance. ;)

Yes, my take on Buddhist teachings is from the Theravada point of view, as I am not very familiar with Mahayana tradition. Theravada is all I know.

[arcticwolf]

I think it's time to discus The 4th Noble Truth, aka The Noble Eightfold Path. This is where the meat and potatoes of Buddhism is, this is what separates Buddhism from other philosophies, this is where the real work of battling ignorance is at. This is the path that leads to freedom from it all. It's called eightfold because it has eight components each working together and all improving at the same time. Here they are:

Wisdom (panna)
Right View
Right Thought
Morality (sila)
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Meditation (samadhi)
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Contemplation

Even though they are numbered in reality the first needing immediate improvement is morality, it is the base upon which all other qualities are built. Without perfecting morality first there can be no progress on the path. Perfect morality/ethics is essential to achieving peace and stability of the mind. Chaotic and "busy" mind can not concentrate very well, so it's not fit for the job of insight into the core of the reality itself. Morality is: Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood.

Right speech is where we are going to get started. So what is Right Speech?
Right Speech is true, helpful, kind, gentle, no slander or gossip. It is speaking at the right time, saying what is factual, and what is connected with the matter at hand, no idle talk, spoken with an attitude of good will.

At some point during discussing morality we will introduce the precepts, probably when discussing Right Action, but any one is welcome to introduce them at any point.

[Artaxat]

Let's first start with the Four Noble Truth

Life is suffering

Suffering arises from attachment to desires

Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases

Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the eightfold path.


First Truth

Life is suffering

Everybody agrees?:coffee:

[Ar-Man]

Let's first start with the Four Noble Truth

Life is suffering

Suffering arises from attachment to desires

Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases

Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the eightfold path.


First Truth

Life is suffering

Everybody agrees?:coffee:

Yes! :thumbs up
But if we look on Pratītyasamutpāda of Twelve Nidānas, the suffering arises from Avidya :) No ?

[Artaxat]

Yes! :thumbs up
But if we look on Pratītyasamutpāda of Twelve Nidānas, the suffering arises from Avidya :) No ?

digran madyaran belzebub shaytanaya....I don't know what your talking about :cool:

now that I am in the mindful presence, I am interacting with Apricity, drinking a spicy Chai Latte, I view myself as not suffering at all

Life is actually quite enjoyable

[Ar-Man]

digran madyaran belzebub shaytanaya....I don't know what your talking about :cool:
:D LoooooooooooooL I love to use sanskrit terms :p

Pratītyasamutpāda = dependent arising
The Twelve Nidānas = (Pali/Sanskrit nidāna "cause, foundation, source or origin") are the best-known application of the Buddhist concept of pratītyasamutpāda (dependent origination), identifying the origins of dukkha (suffering) to be in tanha (craving) and avijja (ignorance)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas



now that I am in the mindful presence, I am interacting with Apricity, drinking a spicy Chai Latte, I view myself as not suffering at all

Well I suppose you're in some state of Shamatha or maybe you're in state of Rigpa ;) fellow Dzogchempa :lightbul:

[Artaxat]

Rigpa is good to get to know people in a more sincere way ;)


You notice, when there is Rigpa, there is no trolling? :thumbs up

so when shall we discuss the Tibetan Aryan link? :D

[Nairi]

Pratītyasamutpāda of Twelve Nidānas, the suffering arises from Avidya



digran madyaran belzebub shaytanaya....

I think it's pretty much summons up my "sufferings" on this thread but at least I know who Digran is...:D

[AussieScott]

I like the spiritualism of the Buddhism, it's very similar to the enlightened spiritualism of many ideologies. It feels good to be able to take your own path these days.

If only the Universal god heads would listen to there inner spiritualism more so.

[arcticwolf]

You guys have been slacking off, leaving the hard work for me, eh? ;) For the sake of humanity I'm gonna do the dirty work. No, no no need to thank me, it's my duty. :p Alright, the second component of the Eightfold path is the Right Action.

Right Action:

The Five Precepts
1. Refrain from destroying living beings ( killing (including suicide), torture etc ) .
2. Refrain from stealing, fraud, deceitfulness, dishonesty, etc.
3. Refrain from sexual misconduct and all abuse of any sense pleasures.
4. Refrain from false speech (lying).
5. Refrain from intoxicants, which lead to heedlessness.

Right action, involves the body as natural means of expression, as it refers to deeds that involve bodily actions. Unwholesome actions lead to unsound states of mind, while wholesome actions lead to sound states of mind.

There you go, done ;)

[The Alchemist]

Let's first start with the Four Noble Truth

Life is suffering

Suffering arises from attachment to desires

Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases

Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the eightfold path.


First Truth

Life is suffering

Everybody agrees?:coffee:

Yeah, i do agree. Life is basically suffering, but when we decide to accept that and not to reject the present moment (however it is), so all that suffering turns into peace and a feeling of being really alive and eternal.

[Ar-Man]

You guys have been slacking off, leaving the hard work for me, eh? ;) For the sake of humanity I'm gonna do the dirty work. No, no no need to thank me, it's my duty. :p Alright, the second component of the Eightfold path is the Right Action.

Right Action:

The Five Precepts
1. Refrain from destroying living beings ( killing (including suicide), torture etc ) .
2. Refrain from stealing, fraud, deceitfulness, dishonesty, etc.
3. Refrain from sexual misconduct and all abuse of any sense pleasures.
4. Refrain from false speech (lying).
5. Refrain from intoxicants, which lead to heedlessness.

Right action, involves the body as natural means of expression, as it refers to deeds that involve bodily actions. Unwholesome actions lead to unsound states of mind, while wholesome actions lead to sound states of mind.

There you go, done ;)

Let's discuss in details those actions by taking as example the Killing. I'm giving you the explanation of Tibetan Master Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche.



There have to be four factors present to make the action of killing complete and therefore a negative act. There has to be the object of the action, the intention, the actual action itself, and that action has to be completed. If these four aspects of an action aren’t all present, then killing need not necessarily be a negative action.


THE OBJECT OF THE ACTION

In order for the act of killing to occur, there must be the actual object or being who will be killed. It can be any kind of living being from a small insect or a large animal. It must be a being capable of experiencing sensations and sufferings. There are religions (such as the Jains) who teach that plants have a mind and therefore they consider plants as sentient beings who should not be killed. But the Buddha taught that this is not so. When one talks about not killing, one refers only to animals of all kinds who have minds and can experience suffering; not to inanimate things such as stones or plants and so on. So, for an act of killing to be a completely negative act, the act must be directed against a true living being who has a mind.


THE INTENTION

For something to be the negative action of killing a second factor must be present: the intention. One must have the motivation to harm that being for it to fall under the category of The Ten Virtuous Actions killing. For example, if we think, “This being is going to harm me” or “It is dangerous and therefore I wish to kill it.” one is killing out of anger and the desire to cause harm. One can also kill through the motivation of desire by thinking for example, “If I kill this being, then I will have food, clothing, pleasure and enjoyment.” One then intentionally kills that being. Or one can kill through the motivation of ignorance such as sacrificing an animal for religious reasons, thinking, “If I kill this being, then the act will be good and beneficial because this was in the scriptures.” Nevertheless, it is not a good intention because it was a killing carried out with the motivation of ignorance. If one
did not realize that one is killing a being, then there is not the negative result that comes from doing an act of killing.
Knowledge and intention must be there.On rare occasions killing is done through a good motivation, in which case a negative result will not come from that action. For example, in the account of the previous life of the Buddha he was a sea captain. At that time a great fortune of jewels could be obtained by going out to sea, but it was also very dangerous
and one could die. It was a risky adventure; one could return either wealthy or not at all. If one set out to sea, one needed a guide to lead the ship, a good person with experience. Buddha was such a sea captain in a previous life and his actual name was “Courage;” He led 500 merchants in a ship to obtain jewels but there was a very negative person on that ship who became very angry with everyone else. He thought that if he made a hole in
the bottom of the boat, it would sink and all the merchants would die. He didn’t care if it killed him too. But Captain Courage saw this and thought, “If I kill him, then it will save the
other merchants. The negative result of killing will come to me, but it doesn’t matter what happens to me. I have to save the 500 merchants and also the man from accumulating such negative karma.” With this motivation, Captain Courage hit this man on the head with an ax and he died. Because of the good motivation, this act did not lead to negative karma. He did kill one man but saved the lives of 500 people; therefore it was a good action instead of a negative one. Though the act may be an act of killing, it may not be a negative action. This is because of the motivation that was involved. The Ten Virtuous Actions


THE ACTION ITSELF

As well as having the object and the motivation, there must be the third factor of undertaking of the action of killing. This means that although one may have the intention of killing someone, one has to carry it out for it to be the negative act of killing. One has to take a sword and attack someone; or one has to get poison and give it to someone and so on. This point is actually carrying out the act of killing someone. One does not need to do this action oneself; one can make someone else do it by instructing and paying him to kill another being. When that person has done the action, one feels happy, “Oh, it is good that being is killed.” Even though it is not one’s own action, but only carried out according to one’s instructions, it is still one’s own negative action of killing because one is esponsible for having made someone else do it. So, as well as the motivation to kill, there is the actual act of killing, whether done by oneself or done according to one’s wishes.


THE COMPLETED ACTION

Finally, the fourth factor is called “completion.” For the act of killing even though one has done the act of killing, for it to be a true act of killing, the being must die as a result of one’s action. So, one might have the intention and one might carry out the action, but one could fail to actually kill the person or the person might recover through medical treatment and so on. It might happen that the victim does not die in spite of one’s having done
one’s best to kill him. While this is obvious a negative act it does not count as a real act of killing. Also, if one has ordered someone else to kill somebody and he disobeys or fails in his
job, it is not an actual act of killing. It must be clear that one’s attempt is a negative action that leads to negative karma; but if one’s action fails in its goal, then it does not become the very negative action of killing. All four factors must be present for it to be a true act of killing. This means that one can avoid the act of killing by avoiding an action that has all four factors present. If one avoids these, one is practicing good conduct.

[Ar-Man]

Yeah, i do agree. Life is basically suffering, but when we decide to accept that and not to reject the present moment (however it is), so all that suffering turns into peace and a feeling of being really alive and eternal.

I agree Sis, but the bad news is that we have a big accumulation of negative Karma, and until we don't master our mind there's a big probability that we will forget all this Wisdom. So the important thing to do, is to challenge right away our biggest enemy, our mind. :wink

[Svipdag]

I asked Ar-Man these questions in a PM and he suggested that I post them in this thread. It has seemed to me that anatman and rebirth are inconsistent, that, if there is no persistent entity, there is nothing to be reborn.

When I have raised this apparent paradox with other Buddhists, they have asserted that it is the life force which is reborn. When I asked whether the life force is individualised or collective, I have been told that it is individualised.

Then, is it not a persistent entity like the atman, jiva, or soul ? The reply was "Oh no, it is something entirely different." I was never able to get an explanation of what that "something entirely different" IS.

Ar-Man has told me that what is reborn is the Mindstream. So, first question:
What relationship, if any, is there between the Mindstream and the "life force"?

Ar-Man has told me that the Mindstream exists only in time, not in space. I have a post on time in the thread on consciousness and self-consciousness in which I explain a parodox which casts serious doubt on the objective existence of time. My second question, then, is: Does time exist in the external reality from which we derive our personal world models, or is it wholly subjective ?

Third: If the Mindstream exists only in time, but not in space, how can it enter or become associated with a human body which must, perforce, exist in both space and time ?



"Da liegt ein' Aal unter dem Steine." Traditional

[The Alchemist]

I agree Sis, but the bad news is that we have a big accumulation of negative Karma, and until we don't master our mind there's a big probability that we will forget all this Wisdom. So the important thing to do, is to challenge right away our biggest enemy, our mind. :wink

Yes, and mastering our mind basically means 'totally accepting the present moment', with no filters. When we realize that life is here and now, every negative acculumation disappear, and we really start living a REAL LIFE, and not just 'surviving' like most people do.

[Ar-Man]

I asked Ar-Man these questions in a PM and he suggested that I post them in this thread. It has seemed to me that anatman and rebirth are inconsistent, that, if there is no persistent entity, there is nothing to be reborn.

When I have raised this apparent paradox with other Buddhists, they have asserted that it is the life force which is reborn. When I asked whether the life force is individualised or collective, I have been told that it is individualised.

Then, is it not a persistent entity like the atman, jiva, or soul ? The reply was "Oh no, it is something entirely different." I was never able to get an explanation of what that "something entirely different" IS.

Ar-Man has told me that what is reborn is the Mindstream. So, first question:
What relationship, if any, is there between the Mindstream and the "life force"?

Ar-Man has told me that the Mindstream exists only in time, not in space. I have a post on time in the thread on consciousness and self-consciousness in which I explain a parodox which casts serious doubt on the objective existence of time. My second question, then, is: Does time exist in the external reality from which we derive our personal world models, or is it wholly subjective ?

Third: If the Mindstream exists only in time, but not in space, how can it enter or become associated with a human body which must, perforce, exist in both space and time ?



"Da liegt ein' Aal unter dem Steine." Traditional

Hello dear friend, thanks for sharing an interest in this fascinating topic. I think other members also might be interested in sharing with us their ideas.

Actually the term "life force" is too "New Agie", and I never saw it in serious literature, it can refer to prana, which have nothing to do with Rebirth.

Buddhists say that Mindstream doesn't have existence in space, because you can never point your finger to something and say this is the midstream, and if something has an existence in space it must have a form :)
But you can divide it in the past, present and future moments of Mindestream, that's why we say that he have existence in time:)
How he connect with a body ? There's few philosophical schools in Buddhism with different theories,
Pan realist schools like Sarvastivada or Sautrantika and even the followers of Middle Path as Madhyamika, claim that midstream connects with body through nervous system, using chakras & prana(the energy) as an agent, because prana is controlled by ideas and can control the nervous system.
I understand that it's impossible to imagine how something that does not have a from can control something that have form, but we have the same problem in neurology today, consciousness is considered as a product of brain, which have also no existence in space.

According to Buddhism the intellect & the imaginations are not the supreme tools to unmask the reality, although they are used as very powerful tools in the begging of the Path. To understand who we are, we need to discover our deepest level of mind through meditation, we need to be free from “Karmic perception”, otherwise you'll not be able to understand who you are, because you'll not know all your parts or element of your being.

I also want to mention another school called Yogachara-Chitamatra that claims that Univers is the projection of the deepest level of midstream, that they call Alaya-vijnana, including other levels of consciousness and the external World(including time & space) are all projected by Alaya-Vijnana. (This is pretty interesting and Attractive Theory ;) )
If you will have more questions I will only be happy to answer them. Thanks. :)

[Óttar]

You know 4 Noble Truths, Independent Origination etc?
:no:

Pratītyasamutpāda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da)
Dependent origination (;)) or dependent arising (from Sanskrit: प्रतीत्यसमुत्पाद, pratītyasamutpāda; Pali: paticcasamuppāda; Tibetan: རྟེན་ཅིང་འབྲེལ་བར་འབྱུང་བ་, Wylie: rten cing 'brel bar 'byung ba; Chinese: 緣起; pinyin: yuánqǐ) is a cardinal doctrine of Buddhism, and arguably the only thing that holds every Buddhist teaching together from Theravada to Dzogchen to the extinct schools.

[arcticwolf]

:no:

Pratītyasamutpāda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da)
Dependent origination (;)) or dependent arising (from Sanskrit: प्रतीत्यसमुत्पाद, pratītyasamutpāda; Pali: paticcasamuppāda; Tibetan: རྟེན་ཅིང་འབྲེལ་བར་འབྱུང་བ་, Wylie: rten cing 'brel bar 'byung ba; Chinese: 緣起; pinyin: yuánqǐ) is a cardinal doctrine of Buddhism, and arguably the only thing that holds every Buddhist teaching together from Theravada to Dzogchen to the extinct schools.

Yep, I did not proof read. Interdependent, is what I meant. Good catch. Thanks!

[Ar-Man]

Few descriptions of how Buddha looked like from Digha Nikaya.


Level feet
Thousand-spoked wheel sign on feet
Long, slender fingers
Pliant hands and feet
Toes and fingers finely webbed
Full-sized heels
Arched insteps
Thighs like a royal stag
Hands reaching below the knees
Well-retracted male organ
Height and stretch of arms equal
Every hair-root dark colored
Body hair graceful and curly
Golden-hued body
Ten-foot aura around him
Soft, smooth skin
Soles, palms, shoulders, and crown of head well-rounded
Area below armpits well-filled
Lion-shaped body
Body erect and upright
Full, round shoulders
Forty teeth
Teeth white, even, and close
Four canine teeth pure white
Jaw like a lion
Saliva that improves the taste of all food
Tongue long and broad
Voice deep and resonant
Eyes deep blue
Eyelashes like a royal bull
White ūrṇā curl that emits light between eyebrows
Fleshy protuberance on the crown of the head


The blue eyes are also mentioned in the work of Nagarjuna, "Advises to a King".

So I suppose, in view of this description we can suppose that perhaps Buddha was Atlanto-meditteranid or Nordindid ? :)

[The Alchemist]

He was maybe Skandonordid ;D
LoL, i'm disappointed, i've always imagined him with grey-blue eyes and deep black hair...now my image of him has fallen down :( :D
I imagine him like a blue eyed Keanu Reaves, with long hair like in the movie "The little Buddha" :icon_redface:

[The Alchemist]

Who of you matchs the description of him????! :D

[Curtis24]

Life isn't suffering, that concept is upholded by our rulers so that we don't blame them for our suffering.

Sorry, but Nietsczhe was right - buddhism is a religion for the weak.

[The Alchemist]

Life isn't suffering, that concept is upholded by our rulers so that we don't blame them for our suffering.

Sorry, but Nietsczhe was right - buddhism is a religion for the weak.

Ahahahhahahah, it's funny watching people talking of something of which they don't know anything. I bet you don't know the deep meaning of this sentence. Nietzsche (that i always liked) was a very weak person, lonely and so far from reality, just look at his sad and miserable death.
I can see you didn't understand the true meaning of Buddhism, and i'm sorry for you, it's a great loss.

[Ar-Man]

Life isn't suffering, that concept is upholded by our rulers so that we don't blame them for our suffering.

Sorry, but Nietsczhe was right - buddhism is a religion for the weak.

My Friend Nietsczhe never knew what the true traditional Buddhism is, every knowledge about the Buddhism he received from his friends, who were amateur followers of new exotic ideology, who couldn't make the difference between Buddhism and Shankara's Advaita, Nietsczhe's descriptions of Buddhism is very subjective and speculative, especially in his "Antichrist".

When Buddhists say life is suffering it means that among all the emotional experiences that we encounter, suffering occupied the big place.
And Buddhism is one of the rare religions that teaches you how to change things, because nothing is Absolute: Suffering, Pain etc.... & according to law of Karma, we are what we did, and we become what we do, so it's the key to change things, and only a strong man can do what he needs to do, instead of his emotional tendencies.

:wink

[Ar-Man]

He was maybe Skandonordid ;D
LoL, i'm disappointed, i've always imagined him with grey-blue eyes and deep black hair...now my image of him has fallen down :( :D
I imagine him like a blue eyed Keanu Reaves, with long hair like in the movie "The little Buddha" :icon_redface:

Well that's the description, it's exactly what you have imagined ;)
Skandonordid is pretty impossible :D because if I'm not wrong it have some Lappoind and other influences :P
And I think Atlantid have pretty divine look :p :wink

[The Alchemist]

Well that's the description, it's exactly what you have imagined ;)
Skandonordid is pretty impossible :D because if I'm not wrong it have some Lappoind and other influences :P
And I think Atlantid have pretty divine look :p :wink

Lol...that's why i've got a devine look, then :D Buddha could also have been nordid + some asian admixure, something like turanid or mongoloid, don't know, sure that He is gorgeous :love: Anyway i'm still wondering how can people criticize a religion like that, without knowing it. They just follow some christian 'dogmas' with a total small mindness. I don't define myself as a 'Buddhist', but it's the religion of real happiness and freedom (freedom of the spirit) but it seems to me that many people choose to survive than to live. Their decision, i don't care.

[Phil75231]

Life isn't suffering, that concept is upholded by our rulers so that we don't blame them for our suffering.

Sorry, but Nietsczhe was right - buddhism is a religion for the weak.

Is that ever reading too much out of a religion!!

Common sense should say that if Buddhism advocated something like that, it would not have gone anywhere! That it has hundreds of millions of followers, if not billions, makes me skeptical that its a religion for the "weak".

*To deny that life is suffering is to say that life has only minor suffering (untrue) or to refuse to face the uglier facts of life (in my esperience, all too true)

*Accepting that suffering is inevitable in life =/= roll over in the face of it. To claim it does equal rolling over makes as much sense as saying conflict is part of life = take a belligerent kick-ass-and-take names attitude every time someone breaks in queue in front of you at the supermarket checkout.

*Show me where in Buddhism it says we should not challenge evil people and evil acts. Not even Christianity goes that far (notwithstanding pop culture interpretations of "turn the other cheek").

As for your contempt for weakenss in general...I've got one answer for it, and the book title says it all
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Contempt-Weakness-Norms-Values/dp/9122012982

[Absinthe]

The misconceptions that people have about Buddhism (and all religions, for that matter) are certainly amusing! :p

If anything, Nietzsche should have glorified Buddhism as it is centered on the idea of constant overcoming, in order to achieve an enlightened state in the end, which could be compared to the state of the Uebermensch and has many literary parallels with the story of Nietzsche's Zarathustra.

In fact, when I was in college I had written a paper "Siddhartha and Zarathustra", pointing out these similarities. I don't remember now the exact details, but it was certainly fun ;)

[Ar-Man]

The misconceptions that people have about Buddhism (and all religions, for that matter) are certainly amusing! :p

If anything, Nietzsche should have glorified Buddhism as it is centered on the idea of constant overcoming, in order to achieve an enlightened state in the end, which could be compared to the state of the Uebermensch and has many literary parallels with the story of Nietzsche's Zarathustra.

In fact, when I was in college I had written a paper "Siddhartha and Zarathustra", pointing out these similarities. I don't remember now the exact details, but it was certainly fun ;)

That's why in India the most important thing for receiving teaching is Parampara ("succession from guru to disciple"), because the language is very subjective phenomenon, you can interpret the scripture as you want, that why it's important to receive the instructions & comments from qualified Guru, who are the successors of living transmission of the Teaching. :wink

[The Alchemist]

"Siddartha" by Hesse is one of the most beautiful books ever....

[The Alchemist]

That's why in India the most important thing for receiving teaching is Parampara ("succession from guru to disciple"), because the language is very subjective phenomenon, you can interpret the scripture as you want, that why it's important to receive the instructions & comments from qualified Guru, who are the successors of living transmission of the Teaching. :wink

A guru can help much imo, but i think they we still possess an 'inner teacher', and we don't need anyone else, but just listening to the voice of our inner Being, and not to our conditioned mind. Awareness.

[The Alchemist]

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/fff/4c0f9457017a3c7e86000fff/little-buddha-poster.jpg
That's how he looked like :p I've also painted portraits of him, when i'll be a better painter, i'll post them :)

[Ar-Man]

A guru can help much imo, but i think they we still possess an 'inner teacher', and we don't need anyone else, but just listening to the voice of our inner Being, and not to our conditioned mind. Awareness.

As the Teachings say, Ultimately the external Guru is the manifestation of inner Guru, ie Tathagatagarbha ;) But in the same time it's very important to fallow a tradition! :)

[Ar-Man]

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/fff/4c0f9457017a3c7e86000fff/little-buddha-poster.jpg
That's how he looked like :p I've also painted portraits of him, when i'll be a better painter, i'll post them :)

Hehehehe you're a real bhakta of Buddha :p

[The Alchemist]

As the Teachings say, Ultimately the external Guru is the manifestation of inner Guru, ie Tathagatagarbha ;) But in the same time it's very important to fallow a tradition! :)

A guru can help just when we're really ready for it. It happened to me in the past, i spoke with some gurus but i had been totally unsatisfied, cause simply i didn't know who i really was and what was i looking for. But now it has just passed, and i'm my own guru ;)

[Eva]

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/fff/4c0f9457017a3c7e86000fff/little-buddha-poster.jpg
That's how he looked like :p I've also painted portraits of him, when i'll be a better painter, i'll post them :)

I had a friend, he was interested in Buddhism, he was an painter, Ar-man is also an artist... now I see many artists show interest in that religion. Is it a coincidence? :)

[Ar-Man]

A guru can help just when we're really ready for it. It happened to me in the past, i spoke with some gurus but i had been totally unsatisfied, cause simply i didn't know who i really was and what was i looking for. But now it has just passed, and i'm my own guru ;)

Of course you must be really sure that the person in front of you is not an impostor and he has qualities of a Teacher, and of course as you said, you must be ready for transformations. :)

[Ar-Man]

I had a friend, he was interested in Buddhism, he was an painter, Ar-man is also an artist... now I see many artists show interest in that religion. Is it a coincidence? :)

Yes dear, I think it is a coincidence. :)

[The Alchemist]

Of course you must be really sure that the person in front of you is not an impostor and he has qualities of a Teacher, and of course as you said, you must be ready for transformations. :)

Unfortunately, many people i know have got lots of prejudices against this kind of philosophies, they say 'miracles don't exist' and so on...What miracle??! It's no miracle, the miracle is just observing our mind!! I never get tired to say it, even if few people listened to my voice.

[Armenian Bishop]

I had a friend, he was interested in Buddhism, he was an painter, Ar-man is also an artist... now I see many artists show interest in that religion. Is it a coincidence? :)

We can find an abundance of Artists among most religions of the world, and Buddhism is no exception. You need not look any further than Christianity, and the Armenian Orthodox Church. Just search the earth of the Armenian Highlands to find finely decorated crosses (Khachkars). They are a tribute from the craftsmanship of artists in the Armenians Orthodox Faith.

Yes, its true that we can find a treasure of artistic souls among Buddhists, and such artistic souls have found homes among many religions, even in the lanterns of wisdom among those who independently seek spiritual growth.

[Óttar]

That's why in India the most important thing for receiving teaching is Parampara ("succession from guru to disciple"),
If I'm not mistaken, Buddhism per se (i.e. excepting the many sects and their own interpretations) on the other hand, rejects the necessity of a guru.

[Queen of Swords]

If I'm not mistaken, Buddhism per se (i.e. excepting the many sects and their own interpretations) on the other hand, rejects the necessity of a guru.

Not in Tibetan Buddhism. In the Tibetan tradition, a guru or teacher is seen as an essential guide on the path.


(Studied with two Tibetan Buddhist lamas.)

[Ar-Man]

If I'm not mistaken, Buddhism per se (i.e. excepting the many sects and their own interpretations) on the other hand, rejects the necessity of a guru.

Generally it's the opposite, in Mahayana and especially in Vajrayana the necessity of a Teacher is crucial, & more the most important practice in Vajrayana is the Guru-Yoga. The Teacher is the person from who we receive the Living Teachings, ie he's the one who'll make us digest the Teachings by adapting them to our personal necessities.


Dudjom Rinpoche about The Importance of Guru Yoga

In particular, it is vital to put all your energy into the Guru Yoga, holding onto it as the life and heart of the practice. If you do not, then your meditation will be very dull, and even if you make a little progress, there will be no end to obstacles, and no possibility of true, genuine realization being born within the mind. Therefore by fervently praying with uncontrived devotion, after a while the direct blessing of the wisdom-mind of the lama will be transmitted, thereupon empowering you with a unique realisation, beyond words, born deep within your mind.


The concept of guru is absent in movements like Shravakayana(including Theravada), but even in their case there are theras(elders) from who the young monks learn and respect them as guides.

The only type of practitioners within Buddhism who're not fallowing a teacher, are the Pratekabuddhas, but those persons are very rare.

[Óttar]

Not in Tibetan Buddhism. In the Tibetan tradition, a guru or teacher is seen as an essential guide on the path.


(Studied with two Tibetan Buddhist lamas.)


Generally it's the opposite, in Mahayana and especially in Vajrayana the necessity of a Teacher is crucial, & more the most important practice in Vajrayana is the Guru-Yoga. The Teacher is the person from who we receive the Living Teachings, ie he's the one who'll make us digest the Teachings by adapting them to our personal necessities.

If you look at my original post, I pointed out that the Buddha himself (NOT the myriad sects of Buddhism) did not believe in the necessity of the guru. Both Mahayana and Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism are the product of a different time period and have much Hindu influence. Buddhists and Hindu Tantrics rubbed shoulders in Himalayan border regions. According to myth, the Buddha had esoteric teachings (Mahayana) which he entrusted to snake spirits (nagas) at the bottom of the ocean, which were given to the Buddhist teacher Nagarjuna.

Pretty much every world religion has sects which claim that their founder had a set of "esoteric teachings" which they revealed only to their inner-circle. We see this in Gnosticism and in Sufi Islam. We see that as long as they pay lip service to their founder, they can ascribe to him all manner of fanciful doctrines.

[Ar-Man]

If you look at my original post, I pointed out that the Buddha himself (NOT the myriad sects of Buddhism) did not believe in the necessity of the guru.

I never heard this before, please be specific in which sutra you read this ?



Both Mahayana and Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism are the product of a different time period and have much Hindu influence. Buddhists and Hindu Tantrics rubbed shoulders in Himalayan border regions. According to myth, the Buddha had esoteric teachings (Mahayana) which he entrusted to snake spirits (nagas) at the bottom of the ocean, which were given to the Buddhist teacher Nagarjuna.

Pretty much every world religion has sects which claim that their founder had a set of "esoteric teachings" which they revealed only to their inner-circle. We see this in Gnosticism and in Sufi Islam. We see that as long as they pay lip service to their founder, they can ascribe to him all manner of fanciful doctrines.

Actually it's the opposite :) Buddhist Tantras influenced Hinduism, philosophically as well (example Shankara), but there's also the possibility that the Buddhist & Hindu Tantras emerged simultaneously, in all cases they appeared with the Mahasiddhas of Himalays.

The myth that you described it's pretty symbolic the origins of Mahāyāna are still not completely understood by historians, because in the early southras you can find all the basic concept of Mahayana as well, so historians can't explain how the Mahayana or the Vajrayana emerged. But traditionally they all came from Buddha himself, except few schools like Dzogchen-Atiyoga.

What concerns the prince Gautama, his case is pretty special, firstly he had few hindu teachers like Alara Kalama & Uddaka, but as their teaching were not enough to stop the suffering, he continued by himself and found his own way. That's why he's considered as a founder of a new School, and not a follower of an existing one.

According to Shravakayana(Hinayana) Buddha was Bodhisattva in his previous lifes, so he didn't achieve his Buddhahood in one life,in Jhatakas you can find that once he was the disciple of Buddha Kasyapa, The Buddha of previous kalpa, as the Maytreya is the disciple of Shakyamuni.

According to Mahayana and early schools like Lokatoravada, the Buddha was already Enlightened before his birth, and he's considered as the Nirmanakaya of Buddha Amitabha, in this case all his life was a demonstration of a path.

Well according to all I knew, the necessity of a Teacher is crucial in Buddhism( but not in the fanatic way), as the necessity to separate with the Teacher when the moment will come.

[Óttar]

I also want to mention another school called Yogachara-Chitamatra that claims that Univers is the projection of the deepest level of midstream, that they call Alaya-vijnana, including other levels of consciousness and the external World(including time & space) are all projected by Alaya-Vijnana. (This is pretty interesting and Attractive Theory ;) )
If you will have more questions I will only be happy to answer them. Thanks. :)
I don't think you addressed Svipdag's inquiry about how the Mindstream differs from Atman. :)

[Ar-Man]

I don't think you addressed Svipdag's inquiry about how the Mindstream differs from Atman. :)

Actually I did, and he approved it by his PM.
There's anything that I can make more lucid for you ? :)

[The Alchemist]

I never heard this before, please be specific in which sutra you read this ?




Actually it's the opposite :) Buddhist Tantras influenced Hinduism, philosophically as well (example Shankara), but there's also the possibility that the Buddhist & Hindu Tantras emerged simultaneously, in all cases they appeared with the Mahasiddhas of Himalays.

The myth that you described it's pretty symbolic the origins of Mahāyāna are still not completely understood by historians, because in the early southras you can find all the basic concept of Mahayana as well, so historians can't explain how the Mahayana or the Vajrayana emerged. But traditionally they all came from Buddha himself, except few schools like Dzogchen-Atiyoga.

What concerns the prince Gautama, his case is pretty special, firstly he had few hindu teachers like Alara Kalama & Uddaka, but as their teaching were not enough to stop the suffering, he continued by himself and found his own way. That's why he's considered as a founder of a new School, and not a follower of an existing one.

According to Shravakayana(Hinayana) Buddha was Bodhisattva in his previous lifes, so he didn't achieve his Buddhahood in one life,in Jhatakas you can find that once he was the disciple of Buddha Kasyapa, The Buddha of previous kalpa, as the Maytreya is the disciple of Shakyamuni.

According to Mahayana and early schools like Lokatoravada, the Buddha was already Enlightened before his birth, and he's considered as the Nirmanakaya of Buddha Amitabha, in this case all his life was a demonstration of a path.

Well according to all I knew, the necessity of a Teacher is crucial in Buddhism( but not in the fanatic way), as the necessity to separate with the Teacher when the moment will come.

But i never understood why so many fights and battles in the past between Hindus and Buddhist...it's such a ridicolous incoherence, and i still think there are hostilities nowadays...

[Ar-Man]

But i never understood why so many fights and battles in the past between Hindus and Buddhist...it's such a ridicolous incoherence, and i still think there are hostilities nowadays...

Dear Sis, there was never any hostility, but when the mind is not perceiving the reality it's naturally to argue which way is true or not, generally debates between different schools were always an intelectual exercise for monks & brahmins, but I never saw Buddhist big Teachers criticizing any other religion.
Hindus generally don't like nastika schools(Buddhism, Jainism ...etc) because they don't recognize the authority of Vedas, but if you look on the practical side, there's many similarities in all Indian schools. :)

[The Alchemist]

Dear Sis, there was never any hostility, but when the mind is not perceiving the reality it's naturally to argue which way is true or not, generally debates between different schools were always an intelectual exercise for monks & brahmins, but I never saw Buddhist big Teachers criticizing any other religion.
Hindus generally don't like nastika schools(Buddhism, Jainism ...etc) because they don't recognize the authority of Vedas, but if you look on the practical side, there's many similarities in all Indian schools. :)

I knew that there were battles in the past between Hindus and Buddhists, i'll increase this argument ;)
Debates are useful, even if words are often quiet superficial. Anyway i think that the ones who fight for any religion, haven't understood anything at all about the only message of all religions, which is always the same. I found many similarities between Buddha and Jesus Christ, anyway.

[Ar-Man]

I knew that there were battles in the past between Hindus and Buddhists, i'll increase this argument ;)
Debates are useful, even if words are often quiet superficial. Anyway i think that the ones who fight for any religion, haven't understood anything at all about the only message of all religions, which is always the same. I found many similarities between Buddha and Jesus Christ, anyway.

Well I never knew that there were battles :p If you have something in your mind bring it up. :)

What concerns the similarities & differences, I think it's better to have different religions, because men have different emotional & intellectual abilities.

[Egbert]

I spent several years in deep study of the Pali Canon in preparation for Theravada ordination, ultimately to walk away. I came to Buddhism by way of racialism, so was largely uninterested in Mahayana and Vajrayana, as I believed and still do, that most of their sects are profoundly influenced by non-Aryan traditions, Taoism, Bon, etc.

I have a couple quotes by Westerners, that I believe encapsulate the kernel of Orthodox Buddhism, the direct teachings of Prince Siddhattha. I offer them here not as promotion, but to provide some insight to other Westerners who might be interested.


"In the radical view of the Buddha, samsara is no cosmic merry-go-round, but a terrible juggernaut of birth and death dragging beings through endless cycles of woe. "Free yourselves!" says the Buddha. All lives and events are variations on the theme of suffering. All are without substance, endurance, permanence merely a web of emptiness, void upon void. The "self" that everyone spends so much time defending and nurturing is pure fiction. "Dismiss it," says the Buddha. The world will not conform to our wishes and to presume otherwise is folly; the disciple must cease clinging to it and proceed along the path to the end of suffering. The root problem is craving, and the radical solution is the destruction of craving through wisdom." - Leonard Price from "Radical Buddhism"


"The phenomenal world is a succession of empty phantasmagoria, for nothing in the universe is permanent – the world is change, and the discreteness of things and events is an illusory appearance produced in the mind of the spectator. Thus causality is a fiction, for cause and effect are inseparable parts of a continuous mutation. And man himself, for all his vain pride in his own personality, is likewise a mental fiction, for he too is an unremitting mutation: omnia mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis. All life, consciousness, experience is pain; this world of ceaselessly changing phenomena is a gloomy labyrinth in whose blind mazes a trapped humanity wanders, to be devoured endlessly, again and again, by the Minotaur of suffering and death. The clue to this labyrinth is knowledge, for humanity, blinded by the evanescent and insubstantial phantasms of pleasure and hope, is the victim, not of circumstances or destiny, but of its own will-to-live, its ignorant desire for life." - Revilo Oliver on Buddhism


"There was a certain Aryan strength in Gautama’s cosmic negation. It requires fortitude to reject life and to believe that all the things that we instinctively prize and desire, such as health, bodily vigor, sexual love, beauty, culture, wealth, learning, intelligence, and even our own individuality are all empty illusions, and that the greatest good is annihilation. It requires even greater fortitude to accept that belief together with its obscure and dubious corollary, which denies us the immediate release of suicide and imposes on us the painful necessity of dragging out an existence in which we reject everything that healthy men desire and for which they live. That is to endure a death in life. Whether there is truth in that cosmic negation is a problem that each man must solve by his own powers of reason, and a problem that only men of great courage will consider at all." - Revilo Oliver on Buddhism

[Ar-Man]

I spent several years in deep study of the Pali Canon in preparation for Theravada ordination, ultimately to walk away. I came to Buddhism by way of racialism, so was largely uninterested in Mahayana and Vajrayana, as I believed and still do, that most of their sects are profoundly influenced by non-Aryan traditions, Taoism, Bon, etc.

I have a couple quotes by Westerners, that I believe encapsulate the kernel of Orthodox Buddhism, the direct teachings of Prince Siddhattha. I offer them here not as promotion, but to provide some insight to other Westerners who might be interested.

Thank you for your opinion, but there is zero evidence of any kind of influence on Buddhism from Religions like Bon or Taoism , & it's unscientific to call Therevada "Ortodox Buddhism". Therevada is the descended of school Tamraparniya, and he appeared in the 7th century AD in Sri Lanka, in the other hand we have historical proofs of the existence of Mahayana schools in 1st century BC.
The basic difference between Sravakayana & Mahayana is that Shravakayana is for personal Liberation, in the opposite, Mahayana follows the Ideal of Aryabuddhisatva, ie reaching buddha state to liberate others from suffering, and this concept you can find in earliest sutras as well, and there's nothing non-Aryan in there.

Modern studies showed that Mahayana is a tradition working within the context of the early Buddhist schools rather than as a separate movement or sect.

[Egbert]

Thank you for your opinion, but there is zero evidence of any kind of influence on Buddhism from Religions like Bon or Taoism , & it's unscientific to call Therevada "Ortodox Buddhism". Therevada is the descended of school Tamraparniya, and he appeared in the 7th century AD in Sri Lanka, in the other hand we have historical proofs of the existence of Mahayana schools in 1st century BC.
The basic difference between Sravakayana & Mahayana is that Shravakayana is for personal Liberation, in the opposite, Mahayana follows the Ideal of Aryabuddhisatva, ie reaching buddha state to liberate others from suffering, and this concept you can find in earliest sutras as well, and there's nothing non-Aryan in there.

Modern studies showed that Mahayana is a tradition working within the context of the early Buddhist schools rather than as a separate movement or sect.

I no longer have a horse in this race, but it's pretty clear that as Buddhism moved from India into Tibet, China and Japan, that it picked up many elements that were non-existent before that. What began as a strictly monastic and ascetic philosophy, based entirely on the teachings of Prince Siddhattha, became filled with all manner of supernatural deities, local superstitions, lay practices and unrelated beliefs, that were not espoused by it's founder.

[Ar-Man]

I no longer have a horse in this race, but it's pretty clear that as Buddhism moved from India into Tibet, China and Japan, that it picked up many elements that were non-existent before that. What began as a strictly monastic and ascetic philosophy, based entirely on the teachings of Prince Siddhattha, became filled with all manner of supernatural deities, local superstitions, lay practices and unrelated beliefs, that were not espoused by it's founder.

Again there's zero evidence that Vajrayana changed in Tibet for example, Tibetan Vajrayana is the Authentic Indian one, the texts of Indian masters like Kamalashila, Padmasambhava, Shantarakshita, Atisha...etc are the proof of this statement.
And there's nothing supernatural, as you mentioned you didn't studied those schools, so I think it's pretty unfair to label them, when you're not at all familiar with the basic philosophy.

[Mordid]

Research Hinduism before Buddhism.

Then, research Taoism and Confucianism.

[Ar-Man]

Research Hinduism before Buddhism.

Then, research Taoism and Confucianism.

Yes Mordid ? There's any opinions & suggestions ? :)

[Mordid]

Yes Mordid ? There's any opinions & suggestions ? :)
What come to my mind, I will tell you. :)

[Ar-Man]

H.H. Sogyal Rinpoche - What meditation really is

0tIBYxed16s

[Absinthe]

Research Hinduism before Buddhism.

Then, research Taoism and Confucianism.
That's exactly the sequence I followed myself, for some strange and random reason. :)

[Flintlocke]

The Buddha is merely an avatar of Vishnu remember, hinduism is the last form of living Aryan paganism. I'm not discounting Buddhism, but it should be seen within the Hindu concept.

[Ar-Man]

The Buddha is merely an avatar of Vishnu remember, hinduism is the last form of living Aryan paganism. I'm not discounting Buddhism, but it should be seen within the Hindu concept.

That's true, Buddha is considered as Avatara by most of Hindus, but do not forget that Hinduism can't be considered as one movement who predates Buddhism, there's a billion of different subdivisions and the most important schools appeared after 8 century CE, as Advaita or Vaishnavism. Basically Hinduism contains different philosophical traditions who're recognizing the authority of Vedas.

And I must mention that Buddha as Avatara appeared in texts like Bhagavata Purana, also known as Shrimad Bhagavatam, which is relatively recent scripture, most of scholars think that he was written between 500-1000 CE.

B. R. Ambedkar, who revived Buddhism in India, denied that Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu. Among the 22 vows he gave to the neo-Buddhists, the 5th vow is "I do not and shall not believe that Lord Buddha was the incarnation of Vishnu. I believe this to be sheer madness and false propaganda."

Ucko, Hans (2002). The people and the people of God. LIT Verlag Münster. p. 101. ISBN 9783825855642.

In 1999, at the Maha Bodhi Society in Sarnath, Jagadguru Sankaracharya, Jayendra Saraswati of Kanchi matha and Vipassana Acharya S. N. Goenka after having a mutual discussion, gave a joint communiqué agreeing on the following three points.

1.Due to whatever reason some literature was written in India in the past in which the Buddha was declared to be a re-incarnation of Vishnu and other various false things about him, this was very unpleasant. In order to foster friendlier ties between Hindus and Buddhists we decide that whatever has happened in the past should be forgotten and such belief should not be propagated.
2.To forever remove this misconception we declare that both Vedic and Samana are ancient traditions of India (Vishnu belongs to the vedic tradition and Buddha belongs to the Samana tradition). Any attempt by one tradition to show it higher than the other will only generate hatred and ill will between the two. Hence such a thing should not be done in future and both traditions should be accorded equal respect and esteem.
3.Any body can attain high position in the society by doing good deeds. One becomes a low person in society if one does evil deeds. Hence anybody by doing good deeds and removing the defilement’s such as passion, anger, arrogance, ignorance, greed, jealousy and ego can attain a high position in society and enjoy peace and happiness.

Source (http://www.vridhamma.org/en1999-13)

So in conclusion I'd say that the influence of Buddhism on modern Hinduism is more obvious than the opposite.

[arcticwolf]

Arman I've got your message dude. As you have disabled private messages I hope you'll read this thread. I was really busy dude. Now I have to leave for the West Coast very soon. I should be back this summer. See ya this summer bro.

[StonyArabia]

Buddhism is an interesting philosphy all of suffering cause by desire can't get more correct than that.

[Permafrost]

A translation of the heart sutra for all the followers of the Path..


Body is nothing more than emptiness,
emptiness is nothing more than body.
The body is exactly empty,
and emptiness is exactly body.
The other four aspects of human existence --
feeling, thought, will, and consciousness --
are likewise nothing more than emptiness,
and emptiness nothing more than they.

All things are empty:
Nothing is born, nothing dies,
nothing is pure, nothing is stained,
nothing increases and nothing decreases.

So, in emptiness, there is no body,
no feeling, no thought,
no will, no consciousness.
There are no eyes, no ears,
no nose, no tongue,
no body, no mind.
There is no seeing, no hearing,
no smelling, no tasting,
no touching, no imagining.
There is nothing seen, nor heard,
nor smelled, nor tasted,
nor touched, nor imagined.

There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.

The Bodhisattvas rely on the Perfection of Wisdom,
and so with no delusions,
they feel no fear,
and have Nirvana here and now.

All the Buddhas,
past, present, and future,
rely on the Perfection of Wisdom,
and live in full enlightenment.

The Perfection of Wisdom is the greatest mantra.
It is the clearest mantra,
the highest mantra,
the mantra that removes all suffering.

This is truth that cannot be doubted.
Say it so:

Gaté,
gaté,
paragaté,
parasamgaté.
Bodhi!
Svaha!
Which means...
Gone,
gone,
gone over,
gone fully over.
Awakened!
So be it!

Just magnificent

[Veneda]

A translation of the heart sutra for all the followers of the Path..



Just magnificent

arcticwolf will shower gold on you for this :)

[arcticwolf]

arcticwolf will shower gold on you for this :)

Finally, someone with a mind that understands! Why is that so rare? Why are so many just plain blind to reality? If I had a magic wand that would change real fast! :laugh:

Anyhow I forgot about this thread when Arman left. Seems like I left the Noble Eightfold Path unfinished, may have to do that this weekend.

Hi Veneda, are you ready to join the Path? :P

[Veneda]

Finally, someone with a mind that understands! Why is that so rare? Why are so many just plain blind to reality? If I had a magic wand that would change real fast! :laugh:

Anyhow I forgot about this thread when Arman left. Seems like I left the Noble Eightfold Path unfinished, may have to do that this weekend.

Hi Veneda, are you ready to join the Path? :P
Hi :)

I prefer to remain a neutral observer :)

[arcticwolf]

Hi :)

I prefer to remain a neutral observer :)

Veneda, the perfect state of mind is what you may call a neutral observer. Mind that is absolutely neutral, but attentive and curious is a perfect tool for the job of insight into reality. If that's what your mind is you are a natural, and halfway there already! :P

[Veneda]

Veneda, the perfect state of mind is what you may call a neutral observer. Mind that is absolutely neutral, but attentive and curious is a perfect tool for the job of insight into reality. If that's what your mind is you are a natural, and halfway there already! :P

Thanks. I was always an adherent to what you call a 'Middle path' :)

[Permafrost]

...it would seem Poles have an inborn propension toward balance, meditation, introspection and insightfulness :)

As for me, I'm more syncretistic. I follow the wisdom of Perun, but sometimes I lend my ear to Avalokiteshvara as well :P Maybe it's high time I founded my very own school of Buddhism...

[Veneda]

...it would seem Poles have an inborn propension toward balance, meditation, introspection and insightfulness :)

As for me, I'm more syncretistic. I follow the wisdom of Perun, but sometimes I lend my ear to Avalokiteshvara as well :P Maybe it's high time I founded my very own school of Peruno-Buddhism...

fixed

I will gladly enroll as a student :)

[Permafrost]

fixed

I will gladly enroll as a student :)

A splendid choice of name :) But in no way can I accept you as a mere student my beloved Slavic sister,... instead, we shall establish it conjointly! A Sloveno-Polish project :D

Subsequently, we ought to enlighten the other Slavs, kebab followers being first on the list. We shall turn them from their erroneous ways and show them the true light, not by skewing their heads like the Polish lancers used to, but by conquering them with love and wisdom.

It is done then. Ofc AW can join too :D

[arcticwolf]

A splendid choice of name :) But in no way can I accept you as a mere student my beloved Slavic sister,... instead, we shall establish it conjointly! A Sloveno-Polish project :D

Subsequently, we ought to enlighten the other Slavs, kebab followers being first on the list. We shall turn them from their erroneous ways and show them the true light, not by skewing their heads like the Polish lancers used to, but by conquering them with love and wisdom.

It is done then. Ofc AW can join too :D

Very well said brother!

The enlightenment is coming. It's encouraging to see some of the Kebab Slavs identify themselves as Slavs, that's a very good sign. Religions come and go being a Slav is forever.

Don't count on LunaRosa turning around though she is hardcore Kebab follower! :laugh: