Multi ethnic neighbourhoods vs ghettos

[Tooting Carmen]

People often conflate the two, but they are not the same at all. I have a friend of Gujarati descent originally from Leicester, and he himself says he hates living in overwhelmingly South Asian neighbourhoods, such as where he grew up in Leicester, or Southall and Wembley in London, or Sparkbrook and Washwood Heath in Birmingham. However, the parts of London he does like are where there is no strong predominance of any ethnic group: you can have one neighbour who is English, one who is Italian, one who is Polish, one who is Swedish, one who is Jamaican, one who is Pakistani, one who is Honduran, one who is Ghanaian, one who is Korean, and so on and so forth. What do others think about this?

[Your Old Comrade]

Here most neighbourhoods tend to be rather mixed, socio-economically speaking, but even here it seems to be the case that if you are financially able to avoid having to share your postal code with migrants, you do.

[Nurzat]

I'd absolutely love to live in a truly multicultural neighbourhood with people of all kind of geographic, cultural and racial background. on the condition it's not a ghetto with low household income and criminality

[Tooting Carmen]

Here most neighbourhoods tend to be rather mixed, socio-economically speaking, but even here it seems to be the case that if you are financially able to avoid having to share your postal code with migrants, you do.

Although the least deprived borough in London is also the whitest - Richmond-upon-Thames - even there, non whites make up 19.5% of the population according to the 2021 Census. Quite apart from all the Continental Europeans, North Americans, Australians and White South Africans who live in substantial numbers there, as is the case elsewhere in the capital too.

[Tooting Carmen]

Looking at the 2021 Census stats again, there are a number of London boroughs where no single non-white ethnic group makes up double digits percentage-wise:

INNER LONDON

Camden (35.4% White British, 21.1% White Other, 2.5% White Irish)
City of London (42.5% White British, 24% White Other, 2.2% White Irish)
Hammersmith and Fulham (38.3% White British, 21.4% White Other, 2.6% White Irish)
Haringey (31.9% White British, 22.1% White Other, 2.2% White Irish)
Islington (39.7% White British, 18.7% White Other, 3.3% White Irish)
Kensington and Chelsea (32.7% White British, 28.3% White Other, 2% White Irish)
Wandsworth (48% White British, 16.8% White Other, 2.5% White Irish)
Westminster (28% White British, 24.6% White Other, 1.8% White Irish)

OUTER LONDON

Barnet (36.2% White British, 19.2% White Other, 2% White Irish)
Bexley (64.4% White British, 6% White Other, 1% White Irish)
Bromley (66.5% White British, 8.1% White Other, 1.5% White Irish)
Havering (66.5% White British, 7.4% White Other, 1.1% White Irish)
Kingston-upon-Thames (53.7% White British, 12.7% White Other, 1.6% White Irish)
Merton (41.2% White British, 16.5% White Other, 2% White Irish)
Richmond-upon-Thames (63% White British, 14.7% White Other, 2.5% White Irish)
Sutton (57.2% White British, 9.3% White Other, 1.5% White Irish)

[Petalpusher]

They are the same thing in France.

[Tooting Carmen]

They are the same thing in France.

Aren't there some prosperous parts of Paris where you can find a French person, an Italian, a Swede, a Pole, a Qatari, a Chinese, a Brazilian and a Nigerian all living in the same apartment block?

[Petalpusher]

Aren't there some prosperous parts of Paris where you can find a French person, an Italian, a Swede, a Pole, a Qatari, a Chinese, a Brazilian and a Nigerian all living in the same apartment block?

That would be a negligible occurence with that much diversity but possible, in an upscale building of the 16th or 5th district of Paris for example. The proportions in the general population would look nothing like above though.

The multi ethnic banlieues with no French, and next to no white left even sometimes, are the ghettos.

[Tooting Carmen]

That would be a negligible occurence with that much diversity but possible, in an upscale building of the 16th or 5th district of Paris for example. The proportions in the general population would look nothing like above though.

The multi ethnic banlieues with no French, and next to no white left even sometimes, are the ghettos.

By multi-ethnic I don't just mean different groups of nonwhites, but also Whites from a range of ethnic groups and nationalities themselves.

[Petalpusher]

By multi-ethnic I don't just mean different groups of nonwhites, but also Whites from a range of ethnic groups and nationalities themselves.

I get that, you would find some districts like this, mainly the 18th but it's like half black and everything else in the book. Or a sub part of the 13th with all the East Asians, and mostly whites in the rest of the district. The 3&4 Marais might be a bit cosmopolitan like that too (it's the gay districts of Paris). Elsewhere you will see a lot of diversity during the days but they aren't living there.

[Tooting Carmen]

I get that, you would find some districts like this, mainly the 18th but it's like half black and everything else in the book.

Do you mean that roughly half of the residents are SSA, and the rest are a vast array of different White and non-white ethnic groups?


Or a sub part of the 13th with all the East Asians, and mostly whites in the rest of the district.

Would the Whites mainly be Francais de souche, or often from other countries too?


The 3&4 Marais might be a bit cosmopolitan like that too (it's the gay districts of Paris). Elsewhere you will see a lot of diversity during the days but they aren't living there.

So the gay neighbourhoods are also the most multi-ethnic in the true sense? xD

[Petalpusher]

Do you mean that roughly half of the residents are SSA, and the rest are a vast array of different White and non-white ethnic groups?
Yes. Besides there, where you see the most non whites in Paris is in the subway/RER as they keep commuting back and forth from the banlieues and the city.

It's also due to the square meter price, where it's 3 to 5 time cheaper in the banlieues at least (when it's not free social housing)

https://www.leparisien.fr/resizer/3JxQJqXSHP8KSbnY5WW5Pqxdssw=/arc-anglerfish-eu-central-1-prod-leparisien/public/GNOF4A2WXFBFVMIQZHTPFW4LHI.jpg




Would the Whites mainly be Francais de souche, or often from other countries too?
In the 13th yes, mostly FDS apart from EA. I lived there for about a year, near place d'Italie, before moving somewhere else in Paris. The area around place Monge in the 5-6th is probably one of the whitest when it comes to the residents (and the most expensive). The East Asians are extremely concentrated into the Choisy area of the 13th, huge buildings with their own market, shops,... if you walk in this sub neighborhood you might only see East Asians, then it totally shifts outstide of it.






So the gay neighbourhoods are also the most multi-ethnic in the true sense? xD

In the true sense yes, you would find the most amount of nationalities but still mostly white.

[Tooting Carmen]

London's overall ethnic composition:

53.8% White (36.8% White British, 1.8% White Irish, 0.1% White Gypsy or Irish Traveller, 0.4% White Roma, 14.7% White Other)
20.7% Asian (3.7% Bangladeshi, 1.7% Chinese, 7.5% Indian, 3.3% Pakistani, 4.6% Other Asian)
13.5% Black (7.9% Black African, 3.9% Black Caribbean, 1.7% Black Other)
5.7% Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups (1.4% Mixed White and Asian, 0.9% Mixed White and Black African, 1.5% Mixed White and Black Caribbean, 1.9% Other Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups)
6.3% Other ethnic group (1.6% Arab, 4.7% Any other ethnic group)

[Tooting Carmen]

Yes. Besides there, where you see the most non whites in Paris is in the subway/RER as they keep commuting back and forth from the banlieues and the city.

It's also due to the square meter price, where it's 3 to 5 time cheaper in the banlieues at least (when it's not free social housing)

https://www.leparisien.fr/resizer/3JxQJqXSHP8KSbnY5WW5Pqxdssw=/arc-anglerfish-eu-central-1-prod-leparisien/public/GNOF4A2WXFBFVMIQZHTPFW4LHI.jpg




In the 13th yes, mostly FDS apart from EA. I lived there for about a year, near place d'Italie, before moving somewhere else in Paris. The area around place Monge in the 5-6th is probably one of the whitest when it comes to the residents (and the most expensive). The East Asians are extremely concentrated into the Choisy area of the 13th, huge buildings with their own market, shops,... if you walk in this sub neighborhood you might only see East Asians, then it totally shifts outstide of it.







In the true sense yes, you would find the most amount of nationalities but still mostly white.

Curiously, London is becoming like this too. Even though much of Inner London used to be quite poor, it has been gentrified very significantly, whereas it is certain Outer London boroughs that remain (relatively) cheap: Brent, Waltham Forest, Enfield, Barking & Dagenham, Redbridge, Havering, Bexley, Greenwich, as well as the most heavily Indian parts of Ealing, Hillingdon and Hounslow. That said, most of the truly wealthy boroughs (apart from Westminster/Kensington & Chelsea) are in Outer London too: Merton, Sutton, Kingston, Richmond.

[Petalpusher]

Curiously, London is becoming like this too. Even though much of Inner London used to be quite poor, it has been gentrified very significantly, whereas it is certain Outer London boroughs that remain (relatively) cheap: Brent, Waltham Forest, Enfield, Barking & Dagenham, Redbridge, Havering, Bexley, Greenwich, as well as the most heavily Indian parts of Ealing, Hillingdon and Hounslow. That said, most of the truly wealthy boroughs (apart from Westminster/Kensington & Chelsea) are in Outer London too: Merton, Sutton, Kingston, Richmond.

Despite not being the most expensive on average, the real bourgeois district in Paris is the 16th, particularly it's outer edge where you can find some actual villas and mansions around the Boulogne forest, the Rolland Garros tennis courts and the Longchamp hippodrome.

I don't know exactly the urbanism history in London, but i presume they didn't build communist style dormitory towns around London as much, so immigrants rather settled inside London initially and didn't stack up in the same place outside like they did around Paris (same applied elsewhere in France)

[Tooting Carmen]

Despite not being the most expensive on average, the real bourgeois district in Paris is the 16th, particularly it's outer edge where you can find some actual villas and mansions around the Boulogne forest, the Rolland Garros tennis courts and the Longchamp hippodrome.

I don't know exactly the urbanism history in London, but i presume they didn't build communist style dormitory towns around London as much, so immigrants rather settled inside London initially and didn't stack up in the same place outside like they did around Paris (same applied elsewhere in France)

Yes, in the past it was mainly the council estates and low income neighbourhoods of Inner London (some of them mainly houses, others mainly flats) where immigrants used to mainly settle and concentrate, but for the last two decades at least it has become increasingly the other way round.

[Tooting Carmen]

As it happens, I was looking at the latest School Census for England, and in all London boroughs except Bromley, White British children are below 50% at primary school level. When looking at both primary and secondary schoolchildren combined, only Bromely, Havering and Richmond-upon-Thames still just about maintain White British majorities.

[MrCuriosity]

Sad what happened to European cities like London and Paris.

[Lioncourt]

In my city of Plovdiv there is a multiethnic area around the Medical University, where students of Greek, Turkish, Arab, Indian and African origin live, together with Bulgarians, and in last two years, Ukrainians. Ghetto is something that is strongly considered a Gypsy neighborhood (mahala).

[Tooting Carmen]

In my city of Plovdiv there is a multiethnic area around the Medical University, where students of Greek, Turkish, Arab, Indian and African origin live, together with Bulgarians, and in last two years, Ukrainians. Ghetto is something that is strongly considered a Gypsy neighborhood (mahala).

What proportion of the students are from overseas? In the UK nowadays the overall percentage of university students who come from overseas is 24%!

[Lioncourt]

What proportion of the students are from overseas? In the UK nowadays the overall percentage of university students who come from overseas is 24%!

In medical universities a lot - in Plovdiv I think they are around 50%. In other universities, no more than 5% maybe.

[Tooting Carmen]

In medical universities a lot - in Plovdiv I think they are around 50%. In other universities, no more than 5% maybe.

Which language do they usually study in?

[arkas]

The most noticeable ethnic enclaves in Sydney have a high concentration of Asians; Chinese, Indian, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese and Nepali people, but when I was growing up there were hardly any Asian people here. I’ve not really seen any true ethnic enclaves where one ethnicity is the overwhelming majority, the closest is maybe one suburb that is around 50-60% Chinese but there is still some diversity there.

There are of course majority Anglo-Australia areas of the city, which aren’t described as ethnic enclaves or ghettos and in the past there were areas with higher concentrations of Italians and Greeks, now a lot of those people have moved out of those areas, so I think these ethnic communities tend to break down over time.

I think ‘ghetto’ is the wrong way to describe some of these communities because it has a negative connotation where you’d assume these areas are dangerous with a high crime rate and low income, but that isn’t necessarily true for all ethnic enclaves. In Sydney there are some areas with a large Lebanese communities and they kinda have a bad reputation for being rough areas, so maybe they could fit into the definition of a ‘ghetto’.

[Lioncourt]

Which language do they usually study in?

In medical universities in English, while other universities only offer Bulgarian, which means in other universities foreign country students are from Bulgarian diaspora or Macedonians.

[Tooting Carmen]

In medical universities in English, while other universities only offer Bulgarian, which means in other universities foreign country students are from Bulgarian diaspora or Macedonians.

A doctor who has treated me in the past studied at the Medical School in Sofia - as it happens, he is English but of partial Iranian descent. (In the UK nowadays, fully one third of doctors now are foreign-born and 40-50% are nonwhite - in both cases principally of South Asian origin).