Question regarding ethnic groups of Albanians, Romanians, Moldovans, Hungarians, and Greeks

[♥ Lily ♥]

I'm just curious about Slavic people and was wondering a few things.

Present-day Slavs are classified into three groups:

West Slavs (chiefly Czechs, Kashubians, Poles, Slovaks, and Sorbs)

East Slavs (chiefly Belarusians, Russians, Rusyns, and Ukrainians)

South Slavs (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Macedonians, Montenigrins, Serbs, and Slovenes)

So where does that leave Albanians, Romanians, Moldovans, Hungarians, and Greeks? What ethnic groups do they generally belong to?

Also what about the Baltic States? Are they considered as North Slavic?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

These ethnic divisions are not really ethnicities, they are mostly based on language groups. Nobody will tell you in real life that their ethnicity is "East Slavic". Albanians are Albanians and Greeks are Greeks (Hellenic), because they belong to an independent branch of the Indo-European language family. Romanians and Moldovans are part of the Romance group, as are the Portuguese, Spanish, French and Italians, but just as there are subdivisions for West\East\South Slavic there is also a subdivision for Eastern Romance. The Hungarians are Magyars. None of the Baltic countries are Slavic.

[Blondie]

There is no real meta ethnicity based identity in Hungary, hungarians consider themselves just hungarians. But i would say most hungarians identify themselves with huns and finno-ugric, so the "hunnic" or "finno-ugric" can be meta ethnicity for hungarians. The first one is a "cultural-historical" identity which is connecting to early steppe nomads that lived in East Europe, not necessarily to turkics, but especially refers to scythians (szittya) and their descedants who served in the hun army.
In the hungarian identity there is a scythian - hun - magyar continuity. According to this, the uralic pre-hungarians became steppe nomads and part of scythian tribes, later they became part of hun tribal alliance when huns gathered every steppe nomad in East Europe under their banner. And after that they became hungarians.

The finno-ugric identity is West based and popular among western oriented hungarians. I think its most popular in Budapest, but not rare in countryside either.

There are local meta ethnicities, for example the "pannonian" is very popular in Transdanubia. In Cumania (Kunság) the turkic identity is popular, also many szekler consider themselves turkic. The "jassic" (iranic) identity is popular in Jászság. Or some hungarian have duel meta-ethnic identity like hunnic & turkic at same time, or finno-ugric & hunnic etc.

[dviz]

I'm just curious about Slavic people and was wondering a few things.

Present-day Slavs are classified into three groups:

West Slavs (chiefly Czechs, Kashubians, Poles, Slovaks, and Sorbs)

East Slavs (chiefly Belarusians, Russians, Rusyns, and Ukrainians)

South Slavs (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Macedonians, Montenigrins, Serbs, and Slovenes)

So where does that leave Albanians, Romanians, Moldovans, Hungarians, and Greeks? What ethnic groups do they generally belong to?

Also what about the Baltic States? Are they considered as North Slavic?

Like Brás already said, these can be characterized better as language groups, rather than ethnic groups.

Nonetheless, from a genetic standpoint, there are some clusters in which non-Slavic speaking Eastern Europeans fit.

Hungarians group with the West Slavs, Romanians and Moldovans with the South Slavs, and Albanians with the Northern Greeks.

The Baltic states cluster between the Finns, Poles and Northwestern Russians.

[Vulvokov]

There is no real meta ethnicity based identity in Hungary, hungarians consider themselves just hungarians. But i would say most hungarians identify themselves with huns and finno-ugric, so the "hunnic" or "finno-ugric" can be meta ethnicity for hungarians. The first one is a "cultural-historical" identity which is connecting to early steppe nomads that lived in East Europe, not necessarily to turkics, but especially refers to scythians (szittya) and their descedants who served in the hun army.
In the hungarian identity there is a scythian - hun - magyar continuity. According to this, the uralic pre-hungarians became steppe nomads and part of scythian tribes, later they became part of hun tribal alliance when huns gathered every steppe nomad in East Europe under their banner. And after that they became hungarians.

The finno-ugric identity is West based and popular among western oriented hungarians. I think its most popular in Budapest, but not rare in countryside either.

There are local meta ethnicities, for example the "pannonian" is very popular in Transdanubia. In Cumania (Kunság) the turkic identity is popular, also many szekler consider themselves turkic. The "jassic" (iranic) identity is popular in Jászság. Or some hungarian have duel meta-ethnic identity like hunnic & turkic at same time, or finno-ugric & hunnic etc.

Als was arbeitet Mortimer, Blondie?

[Russki]

Nonetheless, from a genetic standpoint, there are some clusters in which non-Slavic speaking Eastern Europeans fit.

Hungarians group with the West Slavs, Romanians and Moldovans with the South Slavs, and Albanians with the Northern Greeks.

The Baltic states cluster between the Finns, Poles and Northwestern Russians.


Hungarians cluster with Slovenians, which are classified as South Slavs, but are really their own thing genetically.

Polish cluster with Ukrainians and Southwest Russians, despite the former being West Slavic and the latter two being East Slavic. Polish language is West Slavic but West Slavic cluster doesn't exist in genetic terms.

Romanians don't cluster with all South Slavs, but more specifically with Bulgarians, so it would be more appropriate to call it East Balkan cluster.

Lithuanians and Latvians form a cluster on their own which is close to Belarusians, while Estonians cluster with North-Central Russians.

There are some differences depending on methodology of comparison (G25 or K36 for e.g.), but some things you wrote are wrong regardless of which tool is being used.

[ioas12]

Like Brás already said, these can be characterized better as language groups, rather than ethnic groups.

Nonetheless, from a genetic standpoint, there are some clusters in which non-Slavic speaking Eastern Europeans fit.

Hungarians group with the West Slavs, Romanians and Moldovans with the South Slavs, and Albanians with the Northern Greeks.

The Baltic states cluster between the Finns, Poles and Northwestern Russians.

Albanians also plot with Macedonians and aromianians

[dviz]

Hungarians cluster with Slovenians, which are classified as South Slavs, but are really their own thing genetically.

Polish cluster with Ukrainians and Southwest Russians, despite the former being West Slavic and the latter two being East Slavic. Polish language is West Slavic but West Slavic cluster doesn't exist in genetic terms.

Romanians don't cluster with all South Slavs, but more specifically with Bulgarians, so it would be more appropriate to call it East Balkan cluster.

Lithuanians and Latvians form a cluster on their own which is close to Belarusians, while Estonians cluster with North-Central Russians.

There are some differences depending on methodology of comparison (G25 or K36 for e.g.), but some things you wrote are wrong regardless of which tool is being used.

The distances were for K13.

Tbh I didn't pay great attention for Poles and Hungarians, but afair Eastern Poles cluster with Slovaks and Western Ukrainians, but overall, Poles cluster with the rest of the West Slavs.

In regards to Romanians, Wallachians and Moldovans cluster with Bulgarians, Banateans with Serbs, Transylvanians with Montenegrins, and Moldovans from RM with Bosnians - so it's very spread out, and not clustered specifically with Bulgarians.

[Kess]

, not necessarily to turkics, but especially refers to scythians (szittya)

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[Aspirin]

The distances were for K13.

Tbh I didn't pay great attention for Poles and Hungarians, but afair Eastern Poles cluster with Slovaks and Western Ukrainians, but overall, Poles cluster with the rest of the West Slavs.

In regards to Romanians, Wallachians and Moldovans cluster with Bulgarians, Banateans with Serbs, Transylvanians with Montenegrins, and Moldovans from RM with Bosnians - so it's very spread out, and not clustered specifically with Bulgarians.

Romanian Moldovans don't plot with Bulgarians, only these from southern counties (Galați and Vrancea) are close to Bulgarians. Same for southern Moldovans from MD. They are on average very southern and many are Bulgarian like genetically do to mixing with Bulgarian/Gagauz colonists who live here, or just because of migration of some Wallachians from Braila area. Rest of Moldovans are not Bosniak genetically, more like Serbs or Bosnian Serbs on average.

[dviz]

Romanian Moldovans don't plot with Bulgarians, only these from southern counties (Galați and Vrancea) are close to Bulgarians.

Whatever, I've seen so many results. Russki's point was that Romanian cluster only with Bulgarians, and that is incorrect.

Here's some results for autosomal, Y-DNA, and mtDNA:

https://i.imgur.com/wFmSPmQ.png

[Feiichy]

Hungarians group with the West Slavs

Hungarians are genetically closest to Slovenes and Croats and closer to them than to any West Slavs. However they are generally unique apart from that since even these two are not that highly similar with them, especially not Croats.

[Feiichy]

Tbh I didn't pay great attention for Poles and Hungarians, but afair Eastern Poles cluster with Slovaks and Western Ukrainians, but overall, Poles cluster with the rest of the West Slavs.

Poles are on average notably more Slavic and northern than Slovaks and especially Czechs.

Western Ukrainians are not genetically homogenous - Galicians and Carpathian highlanders cluster with SE Poles. NW Ukrainians from Volynia and Poles from areas like Lublin are much more Slavic and northern.

[Feiichy]

So where does that leave Albanians, Romanians, Moldovans, Hungarians, and Greeks? What ethnic groups do they generally belong to?

Also what about the Baltic States? Are they considered as North Slavic?

Albanians and Greeks belong to old isolated branches of Indo-European but we could call them Paleo-Balkanites, Albanians especially. Some say Greek and Albanian form wider group with Armenian but not sure how much applicable is that.

Romanians are eastern Romance, Latins, like the southern Europeans but genetically they are Balkan people (mix of Slavs and Daco-Romans) with culture that fits their geographical position with some local uniqueness since they always looked towards their Romance brethen.

Moldovans are closest related to Romanians (Moldova is historical region and land in last of Romania as well, thus east Romanians are Moldovans), speaking essentially same language but they are more eastern European influenced culturally and genetically but still cluster close to Balkan people, in their case Bosnians and Serbs.

Hungarians are Finno-Ugric and their closest linguistic relatives in Europe are Finns and Estonians. They are not Indo-European and more specifically their language belongs to Ugric branch of Finno-Ugric that has other spekers in western Siberia, called Khanty and Mansi people. Culturally Hungarians are central Europeans and most similar to Slovaks and other people from Visegrad 4 block. Genetically speaking they are also fitting their position in central Europe, being mix of Slavs, Germans, Balkanites and old steppe tribes.

Baltic states are not north Slavic but are strongly connected to northern Slavs in genetics, phenotypes and history. Balts are Indo-Europeans and closest relatives of the Slavs linguistically speaking but they are not Slavic since Baltic is a separate branch of the wider Balto-Slavic family. Genetically speaking Baltic states are epitome of eastern European genetics. Estonians as northenmost of these 3 groups are lingusitically Finnic and closest relatives to the Finns.

[Tauromachos]

Slavic same as the more general grouping Indoeuropean is mainly determined by language.

The Slavic nations or ethnicities are all those whose tongue belongs to the Slavic language family, then East,West or South is solely.
determined by their geographical location.

Greek,Albanian and Romanian are part of the family of Indoeuropean languages but they don't belong to the Slavic language family.

Execept of the very general Indoeuropean grouping, Greeks and Albanians are ethnic isolates there is no
real larger ethnic grouping to which they belong.

Romanians i believe are grouped with Romance people like Italians,Spanish and French.

[Russki]

The distances were for K13.

Tbh I didn't pay great attention for Poles and Hungarians, but afair Eastern Poles cluster with Slovaks and Western Ukrainians, but overall, Poles cluster with the rest of the West Slavs.


I don't remember distances in K13 because people on this forum don't use in K13 anymore. In both G25 and K36 they don't cluster with Slovaks, except Silesians.



Slovaks and Western Ukrainians

NW Ukrainians from Volyn are closer to Donetsk Ukrainians on the opposite end of the country than to Lviv Ukrainians who live next door.

Northern Ukrainians are very homogeneous genetically, from West to East.



In regards to Romanians, Wallachians and Moldovans cluster with Bulgarians, Banateans with Serbs, Transylvanians with Montenegrins, and Moldovans from RM with Bosnians - so it's very spread out, and not clustered specifically with Bulgarians.


Okay, okay, Northern Romanians cluster with Serbs and Montenegrians, and Moldovans somewhere in Bosnia.

This calculatorish similarity is highly superficial, Serbo-Croatian speakers are all quite tall on average, their genetic similarity is on much deeper level than with Northern Romanians and Moldovans. A Montenegrin is far closer to a Bosniak than to some dude in Northern Romania who has similar proportions of Slavic and Paleo-Balkan.