Moors in Anglo-Saxon England?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Have any of you noticed this sample? It is half NW European and half Berber/SSA. How on earth did he end up in 8th century AD England? XD I am sure that it is not contamination or anything else; in fact, it is a sample with good coverage. Could it be misdated? Who knows...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2


<tbody>
Genetic ID
EAS003.SG


Publication
GretzingerNature2022


Method for Determining Date
Context: Archaeological - Period


Date mean
750 CE


Full Date
400-1100 CE


Group ID
England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG


Locality
England, Kent, Eastry


Data source
Shotgun


Coverage
64,43%


Molecular Sex
F

</tbody>


England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG,-0.114961,0.106631,0.030924,0.008075,0.02185,0.0050 2,-0.013631,0.013846,0.020248,0.00656,-0.000974,0.002098,-0.003419,-0.014588,0.019408,0.004508,0.004172,-0.003041,-0.006285,0.000875,0.008235,-0.009892,0.010723,0.010122,0.001796

Closest fit using modern individuals


Target: England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
Distance: 0.0160% / 0.01596162
51.8 Irish:Irish37
48.2 Berber_Algeria:BerZN181

Target: England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
Distance: 0.0174% / 0.01737973
52.3 Irish:Irish15
47.7 Berber_Algeria:BerZN181

Target: England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
Distance: 0.0176% / 0.01760166
56.5 Tunisian_Douz:DOUZ_11
43.5 Norwegian:GSM1550659

Samples used


Berber_Algeria:BerZN181,-0.383584,0.09546,0.007542,-0.029716,0.012002,-0.008367,-0.038307,0.026307,0.024952,0.024237,0.002598,0.003 597,0.011744,-0.016652,0.013165,0.004243,0.024382,-0.010769,-0.01986,0.008629,-0.007612,-0.026214,0.019227,0.008073,-0.005389
Irish:Irish15,0.127482,0.128972,0.060339,0.040375, 0.036622,0.022869,0.003995,-0.000231,0.003272,0.003098,-0.007632,0.006594,-0.019029,-0.007019,0.037595,0.005038,-0.008736,0.011909,0.000251,-0.003126,0.021836,0.005812,-0.006039,0.01205,0.005987
Irish:Irish37,0.132035,0.129988,0.063733,0.047804, 0.028621,0.020359,0.01034,0.003461,0.003068,-0.001822,-0.00406,0.008093,-0.015461,-0.011423,0.027823,0.001458,-0.016168,0.00076,0.009176,-0.006128,0.007237,0.008408,0.003944,0.01446,0.0040 71
Norwegian:GSM1550659,0.127482,0.12491,0.075801,0.0 62662,0.045547,0.023985,0.00188,0.006692,0.010431,-0.004374,-0.011692,0.009741,-0.004757,-0.020368,0.023072,0.019888,0.006258,0.000127,0.000 754,0.009004,0.005615,0.002968,0.001972,0.016508,-0.002395
Tunisian_Douz:DOUZ_11,-0.298217,0.09546,-0.00792,-0.039729,0.003077,-0.016176,-0.029846,0.021922,0.026384,0.008747,0.006658,0.002 398,0.008622,-0.003991,0.012351,-0.00305,0.005085,-0.00038,-0.009553,0.004627,-0.002496,-0.007172,0.011216,-0.002289,0.003952

[Kess]

Interesting indeed. A Roman leftover?

[Beowulf]

May be the daughter of an slave or merchant?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Interesting indeed. A Roman leftover?

No, this individual is clearly the daughter of someone newly arrived in the British Isles.


May be the daughter of an slave or merchant?

There were indeed individuals of mixed Berber and Black extraction in al-Andalus, this one was probably the daughter of a soldier or a slave. The crazy thing is to learn that some of these came all the way to England and mated with local women (?).

[ecptr]

A good start for "England has always been multicultural" type of propaganda.

[J. Ketch]

Yes, they made a big deal of one woman who was of part-African ancestry, buried alongside the others. I recall listening to a podcast with Duncan Sayer who talked about it. No mention of Moors.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

A good start for "England has always been multicultural" type of propaganda.

Yeah, the fact that's a lie as well as an exaggeration I think should be clear to anyone with an IQ above 80. Of course, there were individuals such as EAS003, but the percentage of non-European population in England will likely have been less than 0.01% at the time. It certainly was nothing even remotely similar to the England of 2024, where British/Irish are only 65% among the young generation.


Yes, they made a big deal of one woman who was of part-African ancestry, buried alongside the others. I recall listening to a podcast with Duncan Sayer who talked about it. No mention of Moors.

The Moors' is my guess.

[Kess]

A good start for "England has always been multicultural" type of propaganda.

Even the BBC made false claims about Britain's history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=904xN8YIQd4&t=594s

[Leto]

She must have looked like this :D
https://dnm.nflximg.net/api/v6/BvVbc2Wxr2w6QuoANoSpJKEIWjQ/AAAAQcuuvx_SwVNRUAilgiKUK_jT1FTeGzCuyc2Vo_jCSaXY7h Z87kxOcWYdMpGhtcKK9fbAiK-P5ri9LuhXsYuzwH56d0C6u_sDC0Aceg0HOPKhOjVZK5Ywh_BQv sC498JUiufB-k8M9dzXcjyQOWIKtdTuXvU.jpg?r=32e

[Ajeje Brazorf]

She must have looked like this :D
https://dnm.nflximg.net/api/v6/BvVbc2Wxr2w6QuoANoSpJKEIWjQ/AAAAQcuuvx_SwVNRUAilgiKUK_jT1FTeGzCuyc2Vo_jCSaXY7h Z87kxOcWYdMpGhtcKK9fbAiK-P5ri9LuhXsYuzwH56d0C6u_sDC0Aceg0HOPKhOjVZK5Ywh_BQv sC498JUiufB-k8M9dzXcjyQOWIKtdTuXvU.jpg?r=32e

EAS003 was 31.5% SSA, therefore probably had a whiter appearance than that actress. Maybe she was more like the girl below:

https://i.imgur.com/gcDdaEe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1oHMfyH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Vj0tlpN.jpg

[Davystayn]

Highly likely a descendent of a Roman soldier, people who garrisoned the edges were from right across the Empire.

Btw England didn't exist at the time of the Romans, it was all Welsh/Britain at the time.

[celticdragongod]

Couldn't resist! :wink

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.02503161 Irish:Irish37
0.04231473 Irish:Irish15
0.04359477 Norwegian:GSM1550659
0.26008565 England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
0.45562788 Tunisian_Douz:DOUZ_11
0.53628212 Berber_Algeria:BerZN181

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 2.2403% / 0.02240326
77.0 Irish:Irish37
23.0 Norwegian:GSM1550659

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Highly likely a descendent of a Roman soldier, people who garrisoned the edges were from right across the Empire.

Btw England didn't exist at the time of the Romans, it was all Welsh/Britain at the time.

There's no way she can be a descendant of a Roman soldier. She lived 400 years after the Romans abandoned Britain, and to leave such a large contribution so many years later would mean that the impact was massive and extended to entire regions or ethnic groups and not just a very few individuals as in the case of EAS003. Furthermore, the most obvious mark that Roman colonizers in general would have left is the Eastern Mediterranean ancestry, omnipresent in Rome, but lacking in both present-day Britons and medieval samples.

[marco]

IBM is too low to be moorish roots.

Target: England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
Distance: 2.5172% / 0.02517168
28.2 Anatolian_Neolithic
27.2 Steppe
22.2 SSA
11.4 Taforalt
6.4 WHG
4.6 Nilo-Saharian_Pastoralist

[Ajeje Brazorf]

IBM is too low to be moorish roots.

Target: England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
Distance: 2.5172% / 0.02517168
28.2 Anatolian_Neolithic
27.2 Steppe
22.2 SSA
11.4 Taforalt
6.4 WHG
4.6 Nilo-Saharian_Pastoralist

Her parent was (maybe?) from the same background as BerZN181. Where in Algeria does this sample come from?

[Purple Panther]

Yes, they made a big deal of one woman who was of part-African ancestry, buried alongside the others. I recall listening to a podcast with Duncan Sayer who talked about it. No mention of Moors.

The Blackwashing of history continues. You might as well cast Lucy Liu as Malcolm X for the same kind of historical "accuracy".

[CosmoLady]

Have any of you noticed this sample? It is half NW European and half Berber/SSA. How on earth did he end up in 8th century AD England? XD I am sure that it is not contamination or anything else; in fact, it is a sample with good coverage. Could it be misdated? Who knows...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2


How do you know the precise century? 750 is only the mean in a much larger time period, 400-1100.
750 is not more likely than 400

Probably this person was the descendant of a slave or a Roman soldier who mixed.
When the Roman empire was collapsing, Britain was stable and "still Roman" by comparison.

Black slaves were certainly rare in early mediaeval England,
due to a breakdown of the "global" commerce and political unity that existed during the Roman period.
There was slavery until 1100 I think, but the slaves were mostly destitute locals, not exotic Moors.

Black slaves or soldiers were probably somewhat rare even in Roman Britain because of the isolated location,
but this is much more possible!

For example, there is the story of Barates (a Syrian) who settled near Hadrian's Wall in the early 3rd century,
and he purchased, freed, and married a local slave woman (Regina),
and built an elaborate Syrian-style tomb for her when she died young.
Barates also died and was buried near Hadrian's Wall.

This was used by the Guardian and other woke press to say, "See, there has ALWAYS been Syrian migration to Britain!" :rolleyes:

[CosmoLady]

She must have looked like this :D
https://dnm.nflximg.net/api/v6/BvVbc2Wxr2w6QuoANoSpJKEIWjQ/AAAAQcuuvx_SwVNRUAilgiKUK_jT1FTeGzCuyc2Vo_jCSaXY7h Z87kxOcWYdMpGhtcKK9fbAiK-P5ri9LuhXsYuzwH56d0C6u_sDC0Aceg0HOPKhOjVZK5Ywh_BQv sC498JUiufB-k8M9dzXcjyQOWIKtdTuXvU.jpg?r=32e

This was from the Vikings TV series I think?

Now there were Black, Female, Horse-Riding Leaders in the time of the Vikings?
There is hardly one of these TODAY, never mind in 800 or 900. :rolleyes:

This is how woke Hollywood ruined the series probably (which was too white and male otherwise).

They have to insert blacks and LGBTQ in everything, including making Queen Charlotte black (she was German),
making the King Arthur myth mostly black, Indian, occult/non-Christian, and Green in mediaeval England (The Green Knight),
and they even put a black in Darkest Hour when Churchill rides the Tube in 1939 London, when London was still 99% white.
Yes this is woke revisionism, the blackwashing of history


The Blackwashing of history continues. You might as well cast Lucy Liu as Malcolm X for the same kind of historical "accuracy".
When Scarlett Johansson was made to look Asian, and cast as an Asian character in Ghost in the Shell,
or Tilda Swinton was cast as an Asian character in Doctor Strange,
there was mainstream media outcry. But these are fictional characters.

Yet there is no mainstream media outcry when historical white figures are erased, and historical accuracy is ruined.

The replacement only goes one way. The woke elite is trying to replace and erase whites, especially males, this is obvious.

[Petalpusher]

The SSA is really high for half Moor, or the parent would have had to be on the extremely high end of it. It looks more like the offspring of something close to mulatto and native.

That Algerian Berber sample that was used left and right here, is like half SSA.

[CosmoLady]

The SSA high is really for half Moor, or the parent would have had to be on the extremely high end of it. It looks more like the offspring of something close to mulatto and native.

That Algerian Berber sample that was used left and right here, is like half SSA.

So maybe this is a descendant of a mixed person, just as Pushkin's great-grandfather was the first black man in Russia.

Logically I think that there was more trade and travel in the late Roman Empire than the early Middle Ages,
so the original mixing probably occurred then

[Dentist]

The route to Africa through the Atlantic is wide and open so this isn't all that surprising.

[Leto]

EAS003 was 31.5% SSA, therefore probably had a whiter appearance than that actress. Maybe she was more like the girl below:

Over 30 percent SSA is way too much for a supposed half Berber. A half Berber would be like 10% or so. 62% SSA would be considered black anywhere in the world maybe except for some parts of SS Africa where they are black as night.

[JerryS.]

Couldn't resist! :wink

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.02503161 Irish:Irish37
0.04231473 Irish:Irish15
0.04359477 Norwegian:GSM1550659
0.26008565 England_Saxon_oAfrica.SG:EAS003.SG
0.45562788 Tunisian_Douz:DOUZ_11
0.53628212 Berber_Algeria:BerZN181

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 2.2403% / 0.02240326
77.0 Irish:Irish37
23.0 Norwegian:GSM1550659

Me too ;)

Target: JerryS_scaled
Distance: 3.1138% / 0.03113844
69.4 Irish
29.0 Norwegian
1.6 Tunisian_Douz

[Ajeje Brazorf]

How do you know the precise century? 750 is only the mean in a much larger time period, 400-1100. 750 is not more likely than 400

Probably this person was the descendant of a slave or a Roman soldier who mixed. When the Roman empire was collapsing, Britain was stable and "still Roman" by comparison.

400 is at the end of the probability range as is 1100, 750 is therefore the most probable period. This type of ancestry (mixed Berber and SSA) was statistically more likely to appear among Early Medieval Saracens or Moors than Roman soldiers. I also remember an abstract of a paper on Muslim Sicily, where it was written that they had found an individual with "high West African ancestry", probably similar to the parent of EAS003.


Black slaves or soldiers were probably somewhat rare even in Roman Britain because of the isolated location, but this is much more possible!

For example, there is the story of Barates (a Syrian) who settled near Hadrian's Wall in the early 3rd century, and he purchased, freed, and married a local slave woman (Regina), and built an elaborate Syrian-style tomb for her when she died young. Barates also died and was buried near Hadrian's Wall.

There is (not very politically correct) historical evidence of a Roman Black soldier on the border between England and Scotland; the Historia Augustus records Septimius Severus when on campaign ordering an Ethiopian soldier who attempted to bestow him a garland removed from his presence, believing the man's dark skin a "bad omen".


On another occasion, when he was returning to his nearest quarters from an inspection of the wall at Luguvallum​ in Britain, at a time when he had not only proved victorious but had concluded a perpetual peace, just as he was wondering what omen would present itself, an Ethiopian soldier, who was famous among buffoons and always a notable jester, met him with a garland of cypress-boughs. And when Severus in a rage ordered that the man be removed from his sight, troubled as he was by the man's ominous colour and the ominous nature of the garland, the Ethiopian by way of jest cried, it is said, "You have been all things,​ you have conquered all things, now, O conqueror, be a god." And when on reaching the town he wished to perform a sacrifice, in the first place, through a misunderstanding on the part of the rustic soothsayer, he was taken to the Temple of Bellona, and, in the second place, the victims provided him were black. And then, when he abandoned the sacrifice in disgust and betook himself to the Palace,​ through some carelessness on the part of the attendants the black victims followed him up to its very doors.


This was used by the Guardian and other woke press to say, "See, there has ALWAYS been Syrian migration to Britain!" :rolleyes:

Yeah, the script is the usual one, first they make the English a minority in their country and then they even alienate them from their own history. How many people lived in England in Roman times? A million and a half? Suppose there were 100-200 individuals of non-European origin, this would correspond to 0.006% or 0.01% of the population, which in my opinion is a bit low to propagate the idea of a multi-ethnic paradise.


The SSA is really high for half Moor, or the parent would have had to be on the extremely high end of it. It looks more like the offspring of something close to mulatto and native.

That Algerian Berber sample that was used left and right here, is like half SSA.


Over 30 percent SSA is way too much for a supposed half Berber. A half Berber would be like 10% or so. 62% SSA would be considered black anywhere in the world maybe except for some parts of SS Africa where they are black as night.

I literally wrote this at the beginning of the thread: EAS003 was half Berber and SSA, not just Berber.


Have any of you noticed this sample? It is half NW European and half Berber/SSA.

[J. Ketch]

Yeah, the script is the usual one, first they make the English a minority in their country and then they even alienate them from their own history. How many people lived in England in Roman times? A million and a half?
Over 3 million at the end of the Roman period. Of which only a small minority (under 10%) were urbanised.

[gixajo]

Couldn't resist! :wink

59

Neither do I!

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 7.5100% / 0.07510018
95.0 Irish
5.0 Tunisian_Douz

Not good distance, so I will add an individual sample close to the Spanish average:


Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon:HG01506,0.113823,0.148267, 0.038089,0.001292,0.044931,0.002789,-0.001175,0.002769,0.02577,0.032438,-0.002436,0.007793,-0.016799,-0.017616,0.013029,-0.000928,0.001304,-0.003674,-0.003645,0.006003,0.000374,-0.000618,-0.005176,-0.000241,-0.002155

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.9087% / 0.01908672
95.0 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
5.0 Irish

(I didn't intend to look for those percentages, it was a coincidence)

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Over 3 million at the end of the Roman period. Of which only a small minority (under 10%) were urbanised.

Over 3 million in late antiquity seems like an exaggeration for what is now England; 1.5 million seems to be the more likely figure. Even as late as the 17th century, the population was only 5 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England#Historical_population

[J. Ketch]

Over 3 million in late antiquity seems like an exaggeration for what is now England; 1.5 million seems to be the more likely figure. Even as late as the 17th century, the population was only 5 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England#Historical_population
3.6 million is the estimate for Late Roman Britain on wikipedia, from an antiquarian source. The population of England in the High Middle Ages was over 4 million so there's no reason why it couldn't be over 3 million in Roman times.

It does make the demographic collapse and replacement of the Britons by Anglo-Saxons more stunning though.

[Purple Panther]

Yes this is woke revisionism, the blackwashing of history


When Scarlett Johansson was made to look Asian, and cast as an Asian character in Ghost in the Shell,
or Tilda Swinton was cast as an Asian character in Doctor Strange,
there was mainstream media outcry. But these are fictional characters.

Yet there is no mainstream media outcry when historical white figures are erased, and historical accuracy is ruined.

The replacement only goes one way. The woke elite is trying to replace and erase whites, especially males, this is obvious.

They'll keep White men in movies. They'll be cast as clowns and/or villains though as is demonstrated in Jay Z's new movie in which Jesus and the Jews are Black and the Romans are White (not a joke). I couldn't agree more with you, and the creeps are as blatant as they can be. This anti-majority trend likely started in the early '90s when Morgan Freeman was cast as the superior Muslim in Kevin Costner's "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves".