Picts origins, genetically found out

[ScandinavianCelt]

https://www.medievalists.net/2024/01/dna-origins-medieval-picts/

[Nurzat]

cannot see the website because of adblock.

so, tell, us, was Anglo-Saxon scholar/monk Bede/Bēda (lived 672 to 735 AD) right when he said that the Picts migrated from Scythia (around today's Romania and Ukraine) to northern Britain?

[Beowulf]

I can't see it either 'cause the ad block

[Jingle Bell]

"The new findings support current archaeological theories that Picts descended from Iron Age people in Britain."

Ye not rly a surprise, i wonder if they had any Hallsttat/Continel Celt input

[Nurzat]

"The new findings support current archaeological theories that Picts descended from Iron Age people in Britain."

Ye not rly a surprise, i wonder if they had any Hallsttat/Continel Celt input


someone from ~ 441-641 CE, north of Inverness, looks like a contemporary Scot:

Distance to: Scotland_BlackIsle_IA.SG:KD001.SG
0.02645672 Orcadian
0.02654636 Irish
0.02841651 Scottish
0.02888650 Icelandic
0.02933147 Norwegian
0.03143575 Danish
0.03201158 Welsh
0.03231917 English
0.03349921 Dutch
0.03417559 Shetlandic
0.03428516 English_Cornwall
0.03611876 French_Brittany
0.03699399 Swedish


and a person from nearby, from ~1000-800 BCE, looks Scot as well:

Distance to: Scotland_LBA:I2860
0.01750126 Orcadian
0.01855647 Irish
0.01873220 Scottish
0.01991654 Icelandic
0.02111631 Norwegian
0.02198475 English
0.02260150 Danish
0.02292538 Welsh
0.02294214 Shetlandic
0.02387141 English_Cornwall
0.02539374 Dutch
0.02774372 French_Brittany
0.03046274 Swedish
0.03155957 German_Hamburg
0.03450981 German
0.03455381 BelgianA


Scots are Picts? and been there for a long long time?

[ScandinavianCelt]

Here's a copy of article:

The Picts, a people who inhabited Scotland during the Middle Ages, have always had a sense of mystery to them. A new study using DNA has revealed new details about their origins.

Historical sources first mention the Picts in the late 3rd century AD. They resisted the Romans and ruled over a large territory in northern Britain. However, around the 9th and 10th centuries the Pictish culture would decline and those lands would form into what would be the medieval kingdom of Scotland. There are different theories to the origins – were the Picts native to Britain or did they migrate from other parts of Europe?

A new study, published in PLoS Genetics, attempts to solve this question by examining Pictish burials to extract genomes to explore how the Picts are related to other cultural groups in Britain. They sequenced DNA from two individuals from central and northern Scotland that dated from the fifth to the seventh century AD. They compared the resulting high-quality genomes to more than 8,300 previously published ancient and modern genomes.

Sampling location and the regions under ancient Brittonic, Irish and Anglo-Saxon control around the 7th century – image courtesy the authors and PLoS ONE.
Adeline Morez of Liverpool John Moores University, who led the study, explains “I always have been fascinated by human evolution overall: where are we from? How did we manage to settle worldwide and adapt to the wide diversity of environments? I chose to focus on paleogenetics, the study of ancient DNA, as it is a formidable opportunity to gain direct knowledge of an individual ancestry or a population’s genetic diversity, free from inference based on modern genomes. And now, we actually see that the migrations and population mixtures are more numerous and complex than previously hypothesised.”

The analysis revealed that Picts descended from local Iron Age populations, who lived across Britain before the arrival of mainland Europeans. Additionally, the researchers found genetic similarities between the Picts and present-day people living in western Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Northumbria. Medieval traditions, including from the time of the Picts themselves, had ascribed exotic origins to the Picts including them coming from Thrace (north of the Aegean Sea), Scythia (eastern Europe), or isles north of Britain, but the new research suggests much less sensational origins.

A further analysis of DNA sequenced from seven individuals interred in a Pictish cemetery showed that the individuals did not share a common ancestor on their mother’s side. This finding suggests that females may have married outside their own social group and runs counter to older speculation, such as that mentioned by the great English scholar Bede, that the Picts were matrilineal; that they had had a society based on kinship through the mother’s lineage.

Bearded Pictish warrior from the Bullion Stone, Angus, now in the National Museum of Scotland. Photo by Kim Traynor / Wikimedia Commons
The new findings support current archaeological theories that Picts descended from Iron Age people in Britain. The study also provides novel insights into the genetic relationships that existed amongst Pictish individuals buried in cemeteries together and between ancient Picts and present-day groups in the United Kingdom.

“The two Picts studied here showed a greater affinity (by haplotype sharing) with present-day populations from western Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Northumbria compared to the populations from southern England, which is important for understanding how present-day diversity formed in the UK,” Morez notes.

“Thanks to comparison with previously published genomes from Pictish people living in the Orkney islands, we could also show that individuals living in the Orkney and in mainland Scotland, likely gathered under the same cultural unit, were slightly divergent likely because of limited gene flow between the two regions and small population size in Orkney, which is known to speed up genetic divergence.”

Future research will provide new information on the Pictish lifestyle, thanks to archaeologists and co-authors of the study. This will include reassessing and excavating new Pictish sites, investigating dietary habits and mobility using stable isotopes, and further research on Pictish DNA. This ongoing project will provide an excellent tool to facilitate interdisciplinary research to connect archaeology, archaeological science, history, and human population genetics.

The article, “Imputed genomes and haplotype-based analyses of the Picts of early medieval Scotland reveal fine-scale relatedness between Iron Age, early medieval and the modern people of the UK,” by Adeline Morez, Kate Britton, Gordon Noble, Torsten Günther, Anders Götherström, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela, Natalija Kashuba, Rui Martiniano, Sahra Talamo, Nicholas J. Evans, Joel D. Irish, Christina Donald, and Linus Girdland-Flink, appears in PLoS Genetics. Click here to read it: https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1010360

[Nurzat]

going further back:

someone from ~ 1442-1273 BCE from the Isle of Lewis (largest island of the Outer Hebrides), looks pretty similar to those 400 years later and 1400 years later:

Distance to: Scotland_MBA:I2655
0.02301121 Scottish
0.02347919 Orcadian
0.02362997 Dutch
0.02411991 Irish
0.02426962 Welsh
0.02461802 Norwegian
0.02469463 Danish
0.02648497 English
0.02683029 Icelandic
0.02748276 Shetlandic
0.02805587 English_Cornwall
0.02874745 French_Brittany
0.03044328 Afrikaner
0.03060139 German_Hamburg
0.03223063 Swedish
0.03270373 German
0.03542050 BelgianA


this makes for at least 3500 years of continuity in Scotland? in spite of the Viking influence later on? or the Vikings maybe got a pretty similar genetic profile to the Picts :eek:

[~Elizabeth~]

I am happy about this awesome news! :D

Family lore is that I am part Pict on my maternal grandfather's side. That side descends from Picts, Jutes (English), Welsh, and Germans.

[ScandinavianCelt]

going further back:

someone from ~ 1442-1273 BCE from the Isle of Lewis (largest island of the Outer Hebrides), looks pretty similar to those 400 years later and 1400 years later:

Distance to: Scotland_MBA:I2655
0.02301121 Scottish
0.02347919 Orcadian
0.02362997 Dutch
0.02411991 Irish
0.02426962 Welsh
0.02461802 Norwegian
0.02469463 Danish
0.02648497 English
0.02683029 Icelandic
0.02748276 Shetlandic
0.02805587 English_Cornwall
0.02874745 French_Brittany
0.03044328 Afrikaner
0.03060139 German_Hamburg
0.03223063 Swedish
0.03270373 German
0.03542050 BelgianA


this makes for at least 2500 years of continuity in Scotland? in spite of the Viking influence later on? or the Vikings maybe got a pretty similar genetic profile to the Picts :eek:

Funny, but my top 3 Anc Pop averages (all VK) land in Pictish top 5 distances (Hofst., Skara, and Dorset)


Distance to: Scotland_Pictish_EMA:KD001
0.02455821 Iceland_Hofstadir:VK102
0.02620152 Sweden_Skara:VK35
0.02777233 Faroes_Faroes:VK238
0.02811772 UK_Dorset_England:VK449
0.02920700 Norway_Nor_South:VK386
0.02929462 Iceland_Hofstadir:VK101
0.02934034 Faroes_Faroes:VK236
0.02993871 Sweden_Skara:VK40
0.03008632 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.03023667 Iceland_Hringsdalur:VK128
0.03035786 Sweden_Gotland:VK456
0.03083191 Sweden_Gotland:VK429
0.03100929 England_IA:I0156
0.03146902 Sweden_Skara:VK42
0.03167153 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian:VDP-A-6
0.03198250 Norway_Nor_South:VK415
0.03224182 IsleOfMan_IsleOfMan:VK170
0.03241945 UK_Oxford_England:VK172
0.03295735 Sweden_Skara:VK402
0.03296867 Denmark_Jutland:VK324
0.03301045 Faroes_Faroes:VK240
0.03316847 UK_Orkney_Scotland:VK202
0.03319295 Sweden_Skara:VK308
0.03329730 Iceland_Hofstadir:VK225
0.03352833 Denmark_Langeland:VK320

[Nurzat]

Funny, but my top 3 Anc Pop averages (all VK) land in Pictish top 5 distances (Hofst., Skara, and Dorset)

I corrected it to 3500 years (1500 BCE to present) of continuity in Scotland - people 1500 BCE are similar enough in their ancestral genetic mix to people nowadays. that's pretty cool :cool:

so the Eastern Euro / Baltic mix people that came to Scotland to displace a bit the previously Neolithic population that was similar to Sardinians - they stayed eversince

[Graham]

I can simplify it for people. This is what it's like so far, roughly speaking. So far, nothing has changed this view much.


Iron age Picts = 100% Bronze age Britain.
Iron age Britons = 50% Bronze age Britain + 50% Continental Celtic.

Patterson, N. et al. (2022) Large-scale migration into Britain during the. Middle to Late Bronze Age

[Figaro]

I can simplify it for people. This is what it's like so far, roughly speaking. So far, nothing has changed this view much.


Iron age Picts = 100% Bronze age Britain.
Iron age Britons = 50% Bronze age Britain + 50% Continental Celtic.

Patterson, N. et al. (2022) Large-scale migration into Britain during the. Middle to Late Bronze Age

I really wonder what Bronze Age Britain was speaking. Most likely Something Indo-European, I reckon.

[JerryS.]

So there really is such a thing as a true Scotsman.

[Graham]

Picts from Orkney to Fife
Saxons England to Viking Orkney.
I circled it to make it easier. :)


Study Published: April 27, 2023
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1010360


https://i.ibb.co/3rnY6wd/image.png

[Purple Panther]

So, the bottom line is that the Picts match Cumbrian English, Western Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish. I guess that makes me a Pict.

[J. Ketch]

Thanks Sandra Sully.

[J. Ketch]

I can simplify it for people. This is what it's like so far, roughly speaking. So far, nothing has changed this view much.


Iron age Picts = 100% Bronze age Britain.
Iron age Britons = 50% Bronze age Britain + 50% Continental Celtic.

Patterson, N. et al. (2022) Large-scale migration into Britain during the. Middle to Late Bronze Age
Picts 100% Bronze Age British? Check Mid Bronze Age British samples vs Pictish samples.

[J. Ketch]

So, the bottom line is that the Picts match Cumbrian English, Western Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish. I guess that makes me a Pict.
I always pictured you painting yourself blue and running around Ohio naked.

[Figaro]

I always pictured you painting yourself blue and running around Ohio naked.

Ha, beat me to making a similar comment. I’m also amused imagining a Pict running around shouting with a Rust Belt accent.

[Graham]

Picts 100% Bronze Age British? Check Mid Bronze Age British samples vs Pictish samples.

Everything is standard error and confidence intervals. 100% is always an exaggeration, but i kept it simple.



" There is no statistically significant change in Scotland".


Between 1000–875 BCE, EEF ancestry increased in southern Britain (England and Wales) but not northern Britain (Scotland) due to incorporation of migrants who arrived at this time and over previous centuries, and who were genetically most similar to ancient individuals from France. These migrants contributed about half the ancestry of Iron Age people of England and Wales, thereby creating a plausible vector for the spread of early Celtic languages into Britain.

[Graham]

https://i.ibb.co/MDyqMXc/image.png

[Sorab12]

This concernes this topis .Celtic tribe Scordisci inhabited Serbia as well .
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?378998-Ranka-Kui%26%23263%3B-Serbian-and-Celtic-paralels

[ScandinavianCelt]

This concernes this topis .Celtic tribe Scordisci inhabited Serbia as well .
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?378998-Ranka-Kui%26%23263%3B-Serbian-and-Celtic-paralels

The guy in your pict-ure, looks like a Pict.

Thanks for posting.

[ScandinavianCelt]

Ancient Scaled: Pictish top 50 distances: definitely some Viking influence:

Distance to: Scotland_Pictish_EMA:KD001
0.02332992 Scotland_MBA:I2653
0.02369711 England_MBA:I7572
0.02462766 England_MIA:I12778
0.02496474 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I11034
0.02501874 England_MIA:I14347
0.02577887 England_IA:I16442
0.02582547 Scotland_LIA:I3567
0.02592351 England_IA:I16441
0.02601012 DNK_Sealand_VA:VK92
0.02619516 NOR_North_VA:VK515
0.02620828 England_MIA:I14348
0.02624484 England_MIA:I20586
0.02664013 England_MBA:I19915
0.02667710 ISL_Hofstadir_VA:VK101
0.02671581 ISL_Hofstadir_VA:VK102
0.02676089 NLD_MBA:I11973
0.02692971 England_MBA:I7568
0.02694825 Bell_Beaker_POL:I6583
0.02719050 England_Saxon:I0159
0.02720498 SWE_Gotland_VA:VK456
0.02723496 SWE_Skara_VA:VK35
0.02728321 England_EastYorkshire_LIA:I22062
0.02748580 Bell_Beaker_NLD:I5750
0.02749542 England_MIA:I14807
0.02769819 Scotland_MBA:I2655
0.02771880 England_MBA:I19860
0.02775518 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.02778147 CZE_Bilina_BA:I7949
0.02807034 England_MIA_LIA:I12926
0.02830232 England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA:I5508
0.02834540 England_MIA:I13680
0.02835332 England_Roman:6DT21
0.02845614 Scotland_EIA:I2692
0.02861681 England_Dorset_VA:VK449
0.02867117 DEU_Lech_BBC:WEHR_1192SkA
0.02867846 England_IA:I12772
0.02868196 England_MBA:I7577
0.02874675 England_MIA_LIA:I20631
0.02874989 CZE_Unetice_preC:KNE007.A0101
0.02878778 England_MIA_LIA_o:I20632
0.02881397 Scotland_LBA:I2861
0.02883033 England_MIA:I19656
0.02894196 England_MBA:I7571
0.02896262 England_MIA_LIA:I19657
0.02896391 England_LBA_lowEEF:I13711
0.02900341 England_MBA:I7627
0.02913625 NOR_South_VA:VK386
0.02928160 England_MIA:I17015
0.02932993 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN:I0059
0.02935098 England_MBA:I19913

[Purple Panther]

I always pictured you painting yourself blue and running around Ohio naked.

Come on, man. That was just one time, and I was drunk.

[Purple Panther]

Ha, beat me to making a similar comment. I’m also amused imagining a Pict running around shouting with a Rust Belt accent.

Yes, I do that. It's only when I watch "Braveheart", though.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Scottish samples dated from 307 BC to AD 569.


Scotland_BlackIsle_IA.SG:KD001.SG,0.135449,0.12592 6,0.061094,0.052326,0.034776,0.020638,-0.00658,-0.000231,0,-0.003098,-0.013641,0.004496,-0.01442,-0.011973,0.031351,0.007823,-0.014342,-0.000887,0.005154,0.011756,0.008984,0.004204,-0.000246,0.001084,-0.002994
Scotland_IA:I16504,0.129758,0.140143,0.065619,0.05 9755,0.036314,0.02259,0.00047,0.011999,0.004704,0. 004738,-0.006983,0.010191,-0.016799,-0.012524,0.02728,-0.00305,-0.026207,-0.003167,-0.001257,0.006878,0.010606,0.002597,0.002095,0.000 723,0.011735
Scotland_LIA:I2693,0.125205,0.13405,0.063356,0.059 432,0.038161,0.023148,-0.003995,0.008307,-0.000205,-0.00164,-0.004547,0.009142,-0.016055,-0.014863,0.025108,-0.000663,-0.025555,0.000507,-0.002891,0.000125,0.00574,-0.006059,-0.000493,0.006627,0.008143
Scotland_LIA:I2799,0.136588,0.149283,0.075424,0.06 0724,0.040007,0.023706,0.003995,0.001846,0.012271, 0.016037,0.000974,-0.00015,-0.013825,-0.010046,0.030266,-0.002917,-0.026338,0.010262,0.005405,-0.003627,0.010981,0.006677,-0.003574,0.008073,-0.001676
Scotland_LIA:I2824,0.120652,0.139128,0.064111,0.05 6525,0.035699,0.032351,0.002115,0.008307,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.018025,3.00E-04,-0.016501,-0.011698,0.026058,-0.010475,-0.017471,0.002787,-0.000503,0.004752,-0.003369,0.007419,-0.013434,0.005543,-0.005748
Scotland_LIA:I3566,0.127482,0.127957,0.064111,0.05 7171,0.038469,0.01255,-0.001175,-0.000692,0.003886,-0.000364,-0.001786,0.008842,-0.00892,-0.025047,0.02633,0.019756,0.008084,-0.00228,-0.00264,0.005127,0.012478,0.012242,-0.002958,0.00723,0
Scotland_LIA:I3567,0.134311,0.123895,0.070522,0.05 6848,0.033237,0.021753,0.010105,0.006231,-0.001023,-0.00893,-0.001137,0.004796,-0.006392,-0.015276,0.024565,0.010872,-0.005085,-0.002407,-0.001885,0.012006,0.009483,0.004081,0.001725,0.006 507,-0.00012
Scotland_LIA:I3568,0.133173,0.137096,0.054682,0.05 8786,0.034468,0.021753,-0.002115,0.003,0.002454,-0.001458,-0.00406,0.010641,-0.013974,-0.014726,0.026465,-0.000133,-0.021253,0.003801,-0.002765,0.002626,0.009982,0.012613,-0.005546,0.015665,-0.000838
Scotland_LIA:I16413,0.118376,0.140143,0.075047,0.0 64923,0.02739,0.026774,0.00987,0,-0.004704,0.000729,0.000974,0.006744,-0.011001,-0.022157,0.03773,-0.006497,-0.030249,0.003674,0.004651,0.006003,0.003369,0.022 134,-0.008874,0.005302,0.000359
Scotland_LIA:I16418,0.127482,0.129988,0.051288,0.0 60724,0.03416,0.025658,0.004465,-0.004615,0.007158,-0.007107,-0.014128,0.005995,-0.012487,-0.008533,0.026601,-0.00716,-0.024512,0.001774,0.008925,0.004377,0.008111,0.008 656,-0.011832,0.005784,0.007424
Scotland_LIA:I16495,0.125205,0.121864,0.04978,0.05 5233,0.028928,0.023706,-0.000235,-0.001615,0.005931,0.000182,-0.009581,0.005995,-0.015015,-0.021744,0.021715,0.021214,0.009257,0.002407,0.003 394,0.006628,0.008111,0.005193,0.00037,0.00482,-0.003113
Scotland_LIA:I27384,0.120652,0.131003,0.061848,0.0 47481,0.029852,0.019801,0.003055,0.011538,-0.004295,0.000911,-0.00341,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.024359,0.023751,0.006762,-0.009779,0.005574,-0.006285,0.008879,0.007237,0.007296,-0.002342,0.004338,0.003353
Scotland_LIA:I27385,0.127482,0.137096,0.059585,0.0 55233,0.030159,0.022311,0.002115,0.011538,0.007567 ,-0.002916,-0.002923,0.01109,-0.023934,-0.010322,0.022122,0.004906,-0.010691,0.000253,0.002263,0.000875,-0.002371,0.003586,0.006039,0.00976,0.005269
Scotland_MIA:I2982,0.130897,0.138112,0.04978,0.056 202,0.03693,0.028168,0.003055,-0.002308,0.002454,0.007472,-0.001299,0.009442,-0.020218,-0.018029,0.020222,-0.006762,-0.026598,0.007475,-0.001634,-0.00025,0.007362,0.008408,0.003821,0.003735,-0.006586
Scotland_MIA:I2983,0.132035,0.131003,0.059585,0.05 8786,0.040007,0.017849,0.00423,0.00923,0.001227,-0.000729,0.002761,0.005245,-0.011447,-0.011147,0.026465,0.003845,-0.019166,0.006461,0,0.003377,0,0.000495,-0.006532,0.010242,0.010777
Scotland_MIA_LIA:I2694,0.129758,0.133034,0.067505, 0.05814,0.028928,0.02008,-0.001175,0.004154,-0.002454,-0.007107,-0.007957,0.005395,-0.017393,-0.016652,0.025515,0.016971,-0.003912,-0.003294,-0.002011,-0.002001,0.000749,-0.001731,0.00037,0.016026,-0.002994
Scotland_MIA_LIA:I2695,0.127482,0.128972,0.064488, 0.063308,0.036622,0.012829,0.010105,0.011769,-0.000614,0.009112,-0.008444,0.007343,-0.017542,-0.025047,0.02633,0.016574,0.005346,0,-0.006662,0.005753,0.009483,0.005441,-0.007148,0.006989,-0.010179
Scotland_MIA_LIA:I2696,0.132035,0.131003,0.070899, 0.066215,0.032314,0.023148,0.007285,0.008307,0.007 976,0.002369,0,0.010341,-0.013231,-0.012111,0.022801,0.017104,-0.011083,0.000253,0.000251,0.004502,0.007986,-0.001855,-0.004807,0.00482,-0.000838
Scotland_MIA_LIA:I16422,0.138864,0.135065,0.058831 ,0.055556,0.035083,0.022869,0.002115,0.006231,0.00 4295,-0.003645,-0.00406,0.01124,-0.014866,-0.013487,0.025108,-0.004773,-0.022948,-0.000253,0.001006,0.002626,0.008111,0.000989,0.001 232,0.00735,-0.009819
Scotland_MIA_LIA:I16499,0.133173,0.127957,0.062225 ,0.062339,0.035083,0.01506,0.00799,0.009461,-0.003477,-0.002369,-0.010555,0.001649,-0.013082,-0.012937,0.029994,0.016971,-0.001825,0.004941,0.003645,0.001626,0.000499,-0.003957,0.001849,0.006748,0.005269
Scotland_Orkney_IA.SG:KD004.SG,0.130897,0.133034,0 .060339,0.045543,0.038776,0.013387,0.000235,0.0083 07,0.009613,-0.008018,-0.001299,0.008842,-0.003717,-0.01734,0.030944,0.006762,-0.005215,0.006461,0.002263,0.007504,-0.00287,0.014096,-0.002465,0.018436,0.00012
Scotland_Orkney_IA.SG:KD043.SG,0.12862,0.13405,0.0 4978,0.056848,0.043085,0.020359,0.005405,0.008769, 0.006545,0.005285,0.00065,-0.004046,-0.01115,-0.014863,0.024701,-0.015115,0.000391,0.003547,0.015209,0.022511,0.006 489,0.009521,-0.00037,0.009881,-0.011855
Scotland_Skye_IA.SG:KD005.SG,0.146832,0.12491,0.06 0339,0.062662,0.027082,0.028447,0.00329,-0.003231,0.005113,-0.007836,0.002761,0.013788,-0.00996,-0.010322,0.023208,0.012994,-0.013169,-0.009755,-0.011564,0.004627,-0.003119,0.006183,0.005916,0.010363,-0.000599
Scotland_Viking.SG:VK203_noUDG.SG,0.126344,0.14217 4,0.059585,0.054587,0.032621,0.022311,0.003995,0.0 09923,0,0.007289,-0.011042,0.009442,-0.012339,-0.016377,0.022258,-0.006762,-0.024903,0.005701,0.004902,0.004877,-0.008111,0.006059,-0.002465,0.01699,-0.002515
Scotland_Viking_o.SG:VK201_noUDG.SG,0.126344,0.137 096,0.053174,0.047158,0.041854,0.011156,-0.000705,0.005538,0.008385,0.003645,-0.010555,0.006594,-0.019177,-0.016102,0.030537,-0.006232,-0.026859,-0.002154,0.000251,0.001626,0.007736,0.002968,-0.011832,0.022413,0.002634

Average


Scotland_307_BC-AD_569,0.12980384,0.13335928,0.06131988,0.0573002, 0.0348002,0.02129608,0.0027166,0.00527052,0.003157 72,0.0000292,-0.00509248,0.00669016,-0.01386108,-0.01550728,0.026297,0.0036806,-0.01376328,0.00166724,0.00068888,0.00492732,0.0049 4628,0.00549024,-0.00246004,0.00861796,-0.00019164

Closest items


Distance to: Scotland_307_BC-AD_569
0.01384275 Irish
0.01458882 Orcadian
0.01550927 Scottish
0.01568734 Jessie/Grace_O'Malley_mother_scaled
0.01626448 Icelandic
0.01671434 Orcadian:HGDP00799
0.01765838 Nqp15hhu_mother_scaled
0.01787554 Norwegian
0.01865769 Ais_scaled
0.01883489 Jessie/Grace_O'Malley_scaled
0.01937201 firemonkey_scaled
0.01970265 Caledonian/Albannach_scaled
0.01973018 firemonkey2_scaled
0.01988505 ajc347_mother_scaled
0.01992697 Danish
0.01999688 Orcadian:HGDP00803
0.02003526 English
0.02048147 Danish:GSM1985733
0.02067134 French_Brittany:French24247
0.02071180 Dutch:GSM1633992
0.02084642 Welsh
0.02098403 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.02098480 Molfish/Creoda_scaled
0.02108285 ajc347_scaled
0.02115973 jadegreg_mother_scaled
0.02132061 Scottish:Scottish26
0.02133400 Danish:GSM1985744
0.02143393 Welsh:WAL004
0.02195156 Scottish:Scottish1
0.02208738 English_Cornwall
0.02211942 Shetlandic

Best fit 2-way models


1 0.01013538 60% Orcadian:HGDP00799 + 40% Nqp15hhu_scaled
2 0.01017705 51% Norwegian:GSM1550604 + 49% Scottish:Scottish14
3 0.01038726 63% Orcadian:HGDP00799 + 37% French_Brittany:French23989
4 0.01045107 60% Jessie/Grace_O'Malley_mother_scaled + 40% Dutch:GSM1633992
5 0.01066743 72% Irish + 28% Norwegian:GSM1550604

[Ajeje Brazorf]

No man's land

https://i.imgur.com/mzmFI0o.png
https://i.imgur.com/FWoeDaj.png
https://i.imgur.com/8ODR3n7.png
https://i.imgur.com/6SZcxfc.png

[robertb]

So, the bottom line is that the Picts match Cumbrian English, Western Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish. I guess that makes me a Pict.

Hell yeah, now we just need to find some Romans to fight with. They'll have to build a wall across Appalachia to keep us out.

[Sorab12]

The guy in your pict-ure, looks like a Pict.

Thanks for posting.

Probably , he was from west of Serbia

[ScandinavianCelt]

https://i.ibb.co/MDyqMXc/image.png



Do you think I might have Scottish genes? :cool:

This is how Scottish Mod Scaled Davidski samples, the Pictish sample, and the Scotland Orkney Vikings plot against my 22-chromosomes and my official AncestryDNA coords. My chromosome #1 is literally sandwiched between the current Mod Pop Ave Scaled for Scotland and the Scotland Orkney Vikings average.



https://i.postimg.cc/1tx1vSZY/Vahaduo-Global-25-Views-58.png (https://postimg.cc/ns1WL6rv)


Samples used:

Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK201,0.126344,0.138112,0.05694 5,0.044897,0.041854,0.013945,0.00188,0.003692,0.00 3272,-0.000182,-0.011692,0.005845,-0.02111,-0.014726,0.027687,-0.005569,-0.024251,-0.000887,0.00088,0.004502,0.007612,0.002349,-0.011092,0.018557,0.002395
Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK202,0.121791,0.132019,0.05581 4,0.054587,0.040007,0.019801,-0.00423,0.003692,0.013294,0.012392,0.000974,0.0104 91,-0.015163,-0.01679,0.02538,0.009679,-0.000391,0.004941,0.00264,0.005002,0.005615,0.0022 26,-0.002835,0.009881,0.006586
Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK203,0.124067,0.138112,0.06297 9,0.052972,0.033852,0.025937,0.001175,0.00923,0.00 1023,0.002916,-0.011205,0.007793,-0.014123,-0.014863,0.026058,-0.004641,-0.022948,0.002534,0.003771,0.01038,-0.002371,0.005688,-0.003944,0.01446,-0.000479
Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK204,0.134311,0.128972,0.07504 7,0.052972,0.049548,0.020359,0.012456,0.009,0.0028 63,-0.010205,-0.01153,0.007343,-0.016947,-0.014313,0.030944,0.000133,-0.01017,0.006081,0.000503,0.007253,0.009982,-0.005193,-0.000493,0.016388,0.001796
Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK205,0.132035,0.138112,0.07052 2,0.04522,0.032314,0.019801,0.00611,0.004154,0.014 317,-0.001458,-0.00065,0.001948,-0.008622,-0.014038,0.015065,0.005038,-0.012256,0.0019,-0.000754,-0.001876,0.012228,0.002102,0.00037,0.010122,0.0069 45
Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK207,0.12862,0.135065,0.058077 ,0.04522,0.034776,0.013945,0.000235,0.003,0.00634, 0.003645,-0.004547,0.008243,-0.016947,-0.013074,0.031623,-0.006629,-0.017211,0,0.005908,-0.002126,0.000624,0.009645,-0.00986,0.023738,0.002155
Scotland_Orkney_VA:VK208,0.111547,0.146236,0.05732 2,0.053295,0.035391,0.018128,0.001645,-0.021691,-0.002454,-0.005832,-0.023384,0.018733,-0.022894,-0.015138,0.025923,-0.001856,0.004042,0.005068,0.014707,-0.004627,-0.007237,0.030048,0.017255,0.009881,0.01437
Scotland_Pictish_EMA:KD001,0.134311,0.126941,0.062 979,0.053941,0.040007,0.018407,-0.008225,0.005538,0.000205,-0.003098,-0.014615,0.007194,-0.012339,-0.014726,0.028773,0.009944,-0.009388,0.001014,0.002765,0.01038,0.007986,0.0039 57,0.002342,0.000964,-0.000838
Scottish:Scottish1,0.132035,0.127957,0.064488,0.05 5233,0.037545,0.013666,0.005405,0.008077,0.003681, 0,-0.003085,0.008542,-0.007136,-0.013487,0.032709,-0.003845,-0.020731,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003001,0.004866,0.002102,-0.007518,0.007832,-0.006586
Scottish:Scottish10,0.12862,0.132019,0.061471,0.04 522,0.0437,0.021753,0.00423,0.003692,0.007158,0.00 8565,-0.005521,0.003447,-0.01115,-0.013349,0.017508,0.000663,-0.007041,0.013682,0.006285,-0.006128,0.009234,0.006801,-0.001356,0.011809,-0.005029
Scottish:Scottish11,0.134311,0.136081,0.062979,0.0 44574,0.03693,0.011713,0.00846,0.005769,0,0.009841 ,-0.002273,0.001948,-0.01115,-0.014175,0.014386,-0.000796,-0.019949,0.006461,0.006411,-0.002001,-0.004367,0.005193,0.007025,0.015665,0.000479
Scottish:Scottish12,0.135449,0.127957,0.057322,0.0 54587,0.038161,0.013945,0.004465,0.008307,0.00634,-0.000911,0.002598,0.005095,-0.007284,-0.013349,0.024294,0.008486,-0.013299,-0.005448,-0.005656,0.002376,0.010107,0.001731,0.001725,0.011 086,-0.006466
Scottish:Scottish13,0.129758,0.127957,0.063356,0.0 44574,0.042162,0.016455,0.0047,0.002769,0.00225,0. 003645,-0.001624,-0.003297,-0.002081,-0.020919,0.024158,0.012729,-0.00326,0.000127,0.002765,0.001751,-0.00025,0.00643,-0.001232,0.013496,-0.000958
Scottish:Scottish14,0.129758,0.137096,0.056568,0.0 44251,0.032314,0.017012,-0.00188,0.008538,-0.002045,0.004738,-0.009906,0.007943,-0.011893,-0.015001,0.026194,-0.008221,-0.015646,-0.001014,-0.004148,-0.005503,0.006364,0.001607,0.005669,0.007471,0.000 958
Scottish:Scottish15,0.130897,0.140143,0.060339,0.0 55233,0.040623,0.017291,-0.001645,0.005538,0.0045,-0.000911,-0.012342,0.001649,-0.012487,-0.014588,0.026194,0.008884,-0.005085,0.000507,0.004274,-0.00025,0.012977,0.013107,-0.006655,0.022413,-0.006347
Scottish:Scottish16,0.130897,0.129988,0.064865,0.0 53941,0.038776,0.025658,0.00893,0.002769,0.008795,-0.005467,-0.004222,0.006594,-0.017245,-0.012799,0.026194,-0.000398,-0.003651,0.012922,0.009302,-0.002251,0.004866,0.001607,-0.000986,0.014821,0.0097
Scottish:Scottish17,0.130897,0.131003,0.057322,0.0 48773,0.0437,0.014781,0.010105,0.006,0.004704,0.00 2369,-0.008282,-0.000749,-0.011893,-0.0139,0.019951,0.004243,-0.008996,0.003801,0.001885,0.008004,0.000873,-0.001731,0.003204,0.005904,0.010418
Scottish:Scottish18,0.135449,0.142174,0.064865,0.0 52972,0.042777,0.01255,-0.00376,-0.000462,-0.0045,-0.005285,-0.004872,0.005845,-0.01115,-0.014588,0.028908,-0.004243,-0.010952,0.002027,0.005405,0.006253,0.006613,0.004 575,0.002588,0.014942,-0.005748
Scottish:Scottish19,0.133173,0.132019,0.057699,0.0 52649,0.041546,0.012271,0.000235,0.005077,-0.001636,0.004191,-0.009581,0.001349,-0.011447,-0.011973,0.024022,-0.003978,-0.022687,0.006208,0.003897,-0.003377,0.004742,0.006554,-0.00493,0.012411,-0.007305
Scottish:Scottish2,0.133173,0.140143,0.061094,0.04 6512,0.028928,0.017849,0.00517,0.001615,0.008181,0 .008018,-0.013641,0.009591,-0.013825,-0.006881,0.024294,0.003182,-0.012778,0.010515,0.005908,-0.002376,0.009234,0.009645,-0.001725,0.015424,-0.000239
Scottish:Scottish20,0.130897,0.147252,0.064865,0.0 50065,0.048624,0.015897,0.000705,0.010846,0.004295 ,0.003098,-0.001137,0.002997,-0.019177,-0.003853,0.017915,0.008884,-0.011995,0.010135,0.009679,0.001751,0.003119,0.003 957,0.007025,0.016147,0.00012
Scottish:Scottish21,0.129758,0.133034,0.060716,0.0 45866,0.041854,0.013666,0.0047,0.001615,0.014317,-0.000364,-0.002923,0.001499,-0.011596,-0.004404,0.025923,0.001591,-0.025295,0.000253,0.007416,0.008629,0.003119,0.008 037,-0.006779,0.010845,0.002155
Scottish:Scottish22,0.129758,0.131003,0.063356,0.0 44897,0.040315,0.024542,0.006815,0.004846,-0.001432,0.007289,-0.006171,0.003297,-0.013528,-0.007844,0.03013,-0.001856,-0.016168,0.000127,-0.000754,-0.005127,0.005116,0.001237,-0.004437,0.01446,0.000718
Scottish:Scottish23,0.127482,0.132019,0.053551,0.0 36176,0.037545,0.012271,-0.003055,0.006692,0.001227,0.001822,-0.008119,0.010641,-0.014271,-0.01101,0.014251,-0.003182,-0.019036,-0.003167,-0.005405,-0.002251,-0.001497,0.005193,-0.005176,0.005061,-0.00491
Scottish:Scottish24,0.12862,0.132019,0.067505,0.04 2636,0.03139,0.014223,0.00329,0.009461,0.005113,0. 000729,-0.002598,0.007943,-0.014123,-0.016377,0.020901,0.001326,-0.008866,-0.00152,0.001508,-0.001126,0.001747,0.002597,-0.004314,0.012652,-0.000599
Scottish:Scottish25,0.126344,0.135065,0.059208,0.0 39729,0.037853,0.017849,0.014336,0.002308,-0.001636,0.007654,-0.002111,0.01124,-0.010704,-0.008945,0.027008,0.004906,-0.013299,0.001394,0.003645,0.007879,0.001123,0.004 822,-0.003328,0.002771,0.006466
Scottish:Scottish26,0.127482,0.133034,0.068259,0.0 49419,0.036622,0.026495,0.00094,0.004154,0.008795,-0.001822,-0.003248,0.01169,-0.016353,-0.01679,0.023887,-0.003447,-0.017341,0.007728,0.002765,-0.004252,0.008485,0.005441,0.00037,0.012773,-0.000479
Scottish:Scottish27,0.12862,0.133034,0.060339,0.04 8127,0.038776,0.018407,0.001175,0.006461,-0.000205,0.002734,-0.004222,0.010491,-0.00892,-0.015001,0.026601,0.010607,-0.007432,0.002787,0.000251,0.005002,-0.001996,0.001978,0.003081,0.02169,0.00012
Scottish:Scottish28,0.137726,0.14319,0.070522,0.04 7158,0.028621,0.018407,0.0047,0.006923,-0.000205,-0.005467,-0.000812,0.002548,-0.006244,-0.014175,0.012215,-0.00053,-0.018775,-0.0019,-0.001257,0.001251,0.004617,-0.001855,0.003081,0.026028,0.007305
Scottish:Scottish3,0.136588,0.126941,0.075047,0.04 8773,0.040315,0.028168,0.003995,0.004846,0.006954, 0.006925,-0.000325,0.008842,-0.016204,-0.009496,0.016286,0.014187,0.006389,-0.0019,0.001885,0.007504,0.007237,0.004699,-0.002588,0.018075,0.005748
Scottish:Scottish4,0.130897,0.126941,0.061471,0.03 8114,0.033852,0.014502,0.004935,0.003692,-0.002454,0.008383,-0.004384,0.008992,-0.012042,-0.022845,0.02158,0.012729,0.002999,0.001014,0.0055 31,0.01013,-0.009608,-0.002102,-0.001232,0.021931,-0.008382
Scottish:Scottish5,0.130897,0.141159,0.05506,0.043 605,0.036622,0.011713,0.00423,0.000692,0.000205,0. 007289,-0.00682,0.002997,-0.008028,-0.004679,0.021715,0.014187,0.000652,0.006208,0.001 257,0.003001,0.010107,0.004946,-0.001109,0.013375,-0.008742
Scottish:Scottish6,0.12862,0.129988,0.065619,0.046 512,0.0437,0.01757,0.00282,-0.003231,0.003272,-0.001276,-0.015914,0.005095,-0.009217,-0.015827,0.025923,0.007292,-0.00013,-0.002154,-0.007793,0.007504,0.007112,-0.004822,-0.002342,0.016026,-0.002155
Scottish:Scottish7,0.12862,0.132019,0.064111,0.041 344,0.047393,0.022032,0.002115,0.006,0.01309,0.008 747,-0.015914,-3e-04,-0.00996,-0.009634,0.017779,-0.00053,-0.009648,0.000887,0.007919,0.003126,0.009358,0.000 247,-0.002958,0.009399,0.001197
Scottish:Scottish8,0.135449,0.139128,0.060339,0.05 5879,0.046162,0.017291,0.00517,0.012923,0.005727,-0.001822,-0.002761,0.001499,-0.010704,-0.006744,0.026465,-0.003978,-0.02021,0.006841,0.001383,5e-04,0.001622,0.000989,0.007148,0.008314,0.000359
Scottish:Scottish9,0.138864,0.138112,0.061094,0.04 0375,0.038161,0.015897,-0.00188,0.009,0.005522,0.006378,-0.006983,0.003897,-0.017245,-0.002615,0.02728,0.008618,-0.012908,0.001774,0.004777,0.003627,0.003369,-0.000371,-0.000616,0.016749,-0.003353

If I add in the Irish Mod Pop Scaled to my PCA:

https://i.postimg.cc/XqxCK3zT/Vahaduo-Global-25-Views-59.png (https://postimg.cc/n9jrp8Zk)

And if I add Ancient Scotland Davidski Scaled samples without Neolithic or Megalithic:

https://i.postimg.cc/2yc8057N/Vahaduo-Global-25-Views-60.png (https://postimg.cc/30GTRYqt)

[Leto]

Average


Scotland_307_BC-AD_569,0.12980384,0.13335928,0.06131988,0.0573002, 0.0348002,0.02129608,0.0027166,0.00527052,0.003157 72,0.0000292,-0.00509248,0.00669016,-0.01386108,-0.01550728,0.026297,0.0036806,-0.01376328,0.00166724,0.00068888,0.00492732,0.0049 4628,0.00549024,-0.00246004,0.00861796,-0.00019164

Closest items


Distance to: Scotland_307_BC-AD_569
0.01384275 Irish
0.01458882 Orcadian
0.01550927 Scottish
0.01568734 Jessie/Grace_O'Malley_mother_scaled
0.01626448 Icelandic
0.01671434 Orcadian:HGDP00799
0.01765838 Nqp15hhu_mother_scaled
0.01787554 Norwegian
0.01865769 Ais_scaled
0.01883489 Jessie/Grace_O'Malley_scaled
0.01937201 firemonkey_scaled
0.01970265 Caledonian/Albannach_scaled
0.01973018 firemonkey2_scaled
0.01988505 ajc347_mother_scaled
0.01992697 Danish
0.01999688 Orcadian:HGDP00803
0.02003526 English
0.02048147 Danish:GSM1985733
0.02067134 French_Brittany:French24247
0.02071180 Dutch:GSM1633992
0.02084642 Welsh
0.02098403 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.02098480 Molfish/Creoda_scaled
0.02108285 ajc347_scaled
0.02115973 jadegreg_mother_scaled
0.02132061 Scottish:Scottish26
0.02133400 Danish:GSM1985744
0.02143393 Welsh:WAL004
0.02195156 Scottish:Scottish1
0.02208738 English_Cornwall
0.02211942 Shetlandic

Holy freak, Scotland has not changed much for over 2,000 years! They should value that too, not just the bagpipe and the kilt.

[celticdragongod]

Holy freak, Scotland has not changed much for over 2,000 years! They should value that too, not just the bagpipe and the kilt.

Actually the results show that the ancient Scottish were more closely related to the Irish than they are to modern Scots.

[Leto]

Actually the results show that the ancient Scottish were more closely related to the Irish than they are to modern Scots.
Yeah and the two are closely related and very similar to each other. See Creoda's custom averages. Especially if we were to consider that over 2,000 years have passed since then.

[Purple Panther]

Hell yeah, now we just need to find some Romans to fight with. They'll have to build a wall across Appalachia to keep us out.

There's no need for a second Hadrian's Wall. Winter weather will do the trick.

[robertb]

There's no need for a second Hadrian's Wall. Winter weather will do the trick.

Yeah I think them Romans today just want to lay on the beach and tan. But keep your powder dry just in case. ;)

[Duarte]

Hell yeah, now we just need to find some Romans to fight with. They'll have to build a wall across Appalachia to keep us out.

We Guido Romans don't need a wall per se. We distract the Scots Irish by building Olive Garden, Hometown Buffet, and other bad restaurants that Scots Irish like. Afterwards they are too full to attack.

[J. Ketch]

Everything is standard error and confidence intervals. 100% is always an exaggeration, but i kept it simple.
Fair enough, I'm just always skeptical of language change without significant population change in prehistoric times. As we're still of the opinion that Picts were Celtic.

[celticdragongod]

We Guido Romans don't need a wall per se. We distract the Scots Irish by building Olive Garden, Hometown Buffet, and other bad restaurants that Scots Irish like. Afterwards they are too full to attack.

I wish people would stop using the term "Scots Irish". The so-called "Scots Irish" were Scottish people who stayed in Ireland for a few generations before moving on to North America. They aren't really Irish.

[celticdragongod]

Fair enough, I'm just always skeptical of language change without significant population change in prehistoric times. As we're still of the opinion that Picts were Celtic.

They don't seem to be Celtic culturally or linguistically, but they do seem to be closely related to Insular Celts. Insular Celts were probably just Picts who embraced Celtic language and culture for trading purposes.

[J. Ketch]

I wish people would stop using the term "Scots Irish". The so-called "Scots Irish" were Scottish people who stayed in Ireland for a few generations before moving on to North America. They aren't really Irish.
Most of them seem to identify as Irish-origin though. Does that annoy you?


They don't seem to be Celtic culturally or linguistically, but they do seem to be closely related to Insular Celts. Insular Celts were probably just Picts who embraced Celtic language and culture for trading purposes.
Why do you say they weren't Celtic linguistically? From what I've seen the evidence overwhelmingly points to them being so.

[Purple Panther]

Yeah I think them Romans today just want to lay on the beach and tan. But keep your powder dry just in case. ;)

I was talking about myself. I stay indoors when the roads and the streets turn into skating rinks.

[celticdragongod]

Most of them seem to identify as Irish-origin though. Does that annoy you?


Why do you say they weren't Celtic linguistically? From what I've seen the evidence overwhelmingly points to them being so.

It doesn't annoy me, it is just that it is incorrect. The so-called "Scots-Irish" originated in Scotland and most don't have Irish ancestry. What evidence is there that the Picts spoke a Celtic language?

[J. Ketch]

It doesn't annoy me, it is just that it is incorrect. The so-called "Scots-Irish" originated in Scotland and most don't have Irish ancestry.
Fair enough, you're a small-tent Irishman, nothing wrong with that. Out of curiosity do you consider Yeats, Oscar Wilde, Bernard Shaw etc Irish? Personally I do.

What evidence is there that the Picts spoke a Celtic language
The most obvious thing to me is that placenames of Pictish origin have the same etymological roots as in other Brittonic areas, e.g. Aberdeen and Dundee.

[Purple Panther]

I wish people would stop using the term "Scots Irish". The so-called "Scots Irish" were Scottish people who stayed in Ireland for a few generations before moving on to North America. They aren't really Irish.

How many generations does it take to become Irish? By your logic, most White Americans are still European.

[celticdragongod]

How many generations does it take to become Irish? By your logic, most White Americans are still European.

White Americans are Europeans.

[celticdragongod]

Fair enough, you're a small-tent Irishman, nothing wrong with that. Out of curiosity do you consider Yeats, Oscar Wilde, Bernard Shaw etc Irish? Personally I do.

The most obvious thing to me is that placenames of Pictish origin have the same etymological roots as in other Brittonic areas, e.g. Aberdeen and Dundee.

Yeats, Oscar Wilde and Bernard Shaw all had British ancestry. If they considered themselves to be Irish at all they probably saw themselves as Anglo-Irish.

[Duarte]

I wish people would stop using the term "Scots Irish". The so-called "Scots Irish" were Scottish people who stayed in Ireland for a few generations before moving on to North America. They aren't really Irish.

Pisan, you are right but we Americans always say Scots Irish. I wish they had a better term but that is the one we use.

[Figaro]

Pisan, you are right but we Americans always say Scots Irish. I wish they had a better term but that is the one we use.

I think Scotch-Irish is an acceptable term in context as it’s understood to be a sub-set of the Ulster Scots. The culture and local dialect of the American descendants distilled in such a way as to become a distinct sub-group. They’re not speaking Lowland Scots or whatever anymore, but what is now American English dialects.

In itself “Scotch-Irish” is a little bit of a funny term, but everyone by this point knows what we’re talking about when using that phrase.

[ScandinavianCelt]

I wish people would stop using the term "Scots Irish". The so-called "Scots Irish" were Scottish people who stayed in Ireland for a few generations before moving on to North America. They aren't really Irish.

"Scots-Irish" is just referring to some blending of the two. It goes deeper than you think. Check this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata

[Purple Panther]

White Americans are Europeans.

Yikes! I better check my passport again.

[Purple Panther]

Pisan, you are right but we Americans always say Scots Irish. I wish they had a better term but that is the one we use.

It works. Who cares what foreigners think?

[~Elizabeth~]

I have Scottish ancestry from Northern Ireland but some came over to the USA before Northern Ireland was officially separated from Ireland. In USA censuses they are listed as being born in Ireland. They were Presbyterian Scots, not Irish Catholics. I like to use the term "Ulster Scot".

I have come across people, Americans, with Scottish surnames but they call themselves "Irish". I find that annoying.

[celticdragongod]

I have Scottish ancestry from Northern Ireland but some came over to the USA before Northern Ireland was officially separated from Ireland. In USA censuses they are listed as being born in Ireland. They were Presbyterian Scots, not Irish Catholics. I like to use the term "Ulster Scot".

I have come across people, Americans, with Scottish surnames but they call themselves "Irish". I find that annoying.

"Ulster Scot" is equally wrong. Why not just embrace your Scottish ancestry with both hands?

[celticdragongod]

Yikes! I better check my passport again.

Do you deny being European?

[celticdragongod]

Pisan, you are right but we Americans always say Scots Irish. I wish they had a better term but that is the one we use.

Why not just say Scottish?

[celticdragongod]

"Scots-Irish" is just referring to some blending of the two. It goes deeper than you think. Check this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata

But most "Scots Irish" don't have any actual Irish ancestry. They are descended from Scottish people who settled in Ireland for a few generations before moving to North America.

[Purple Panther]

Do you deny being European?

I do. I'm an American of European descent.

[Purple Panther]

I have Scottish ancestry from Northern Ireland but some came over to the USA before Northern Ireland was officially separated from Ireland. In USA censuses they are listed as being born in Ireland. They were Presbyterian Scots, not Irish Catholics. I like to use the term "Ulster Scot".

I have come across people, Americans, with Scottish surnames but they call themselves "Irish". I find that annoying.

You can't go by just surnames, though. Those Scottish people might have a Grandma Kelly and a Grandma Murphy.

[celticdragongod]

You can't go by just surnames, though. Those Scottish people might have a Grandma Kelly and a Grandma Murphy.

Unlikely. Most "Scots Irish" or "Ulster Scots" are actually descended from Lowland and Border Scots. Most of them would have a mixture of Scottish and English ancestry. Scots-English would actually be a more appropriate title.

[celticdragongod]

I do. I'm an American of European descent.

How is that not the same as being a European?

[Purple Panther]

Unlikely. Most "Scots Irish" or "Ulster Scots" are actually descended from Lowland and Border Scots. Most of them would have a mixture of Scottish and English ancestry. Scots-English would actually be a more appropriate title.

Meh. My forebears beg to differ.

[Purple Panther]

How is that not the same as being a European?

I was born and raised in America, and I still live here. That's how.

[celticdragongod]

Meh. My forebears beg to differ.

And yet you refer to yourself as Anglo-Celtic.

[celticdragongod]

I was born and raised in America, and I still live here. That's how.

But your DNA is European.

[Purple Panther]

And yet you refer to yourself as Anglo-Celtic.

Yet, I do. That's because it fits.

[Purple Panther]

But your DNA is European.

Almost all of it is. No American calls himself or herself "European", though.

[Albannach]

I have a wee bit of ancestry from the North of Ireland and If my own family tree is anything to go by, there seems to have been a fair bit of mixing between Scots planters and native Irish, I've got Scottish proddies marrying women with the surnames Donnelly, Daly, McLaughlin, Malley ect going way back, I think the term Scots-Irish isn't totally inaccurate as that's exactly what a lot of them were, a mixture of Scots and Irish, obviously they were mixed to various degrees, and religion would tend to determine identity more so than ancestry.

[~Elizabeth~]

Almost all of it is. No American calls himself or herself "European", though.

I told a black person that I am European-American. That's because I am a blend that is too long to hyphenate.

[J. Ketch]

Yeats, Oscar Wilde and Bernard Shaw all had British ancestry. If they considered themselves to be Irish at all they probably saw themselves as Anglo-Irish.
As far as I know they all considered themselves Irish, and were considered Irish in Britain at the time (18th, 19th and early 20th centuries), like other Anglo-Irish people (even the Duke of Wellington, to which Daniel O'Connell's famous quote is addressed). That may give an inkling as to why the 'Scots-Irish' also consider themselves Irish, whereas their cousins in Northern Ireland largely don't.

[Purple Panther]

I told a black person that I am European-American. That's because I am a blend that is too long to hyphenate.

Here's the difference to what our lone Irishman said. You added "American" to "European".

[Purple Panther]

As far as I know they all considered themselves Irish, and were considered Irish in Britain at the time (18th, 19th and early 20th centuries), like other Anglo-Irish people (even the Duke of Wellington, to which Daniel O'Connell's famous quote is addressed). That may give an inkling as to why the 'Scots-Irish' also consider themselves Irish, whereas their cousins in Northern Ireland largely don't.

I always wondered if that quote applied to American states. I could be a Virginian who was born in Ohio, but how far back does it go? It's really and truly a moot point. I don't think I've had a purebred in the line since the 1800s, but even that Irish man had a "mixed marriage" with an English woman.

[celticdragongod]

I have a wee bit of ancestry from the North of Ireland and If my own family tree is anything to go by, there seems to have been a fair bit of mixing between Scots planters and native Irish, I've got Scottish proddies marrying women with the surnames Donnelly, Daly, McLaughlin, Malley ect going way back, I think the term Scots-Irish isn't totally inaccurate as that's exactly what a lot of them were, a mixture of Scots and Irish, obviously they were mixed to various degrees, and religion would tend to determine identity more so than ancestry.

This reminds me of white Americans who like to claim that they have Native American ancestry and white Australians who like to believe that they have Australian Aboriginal ancestors. Colonists often try to downplay their colonial heritage.

[Purple Panther]

This reminds me of white Americans who like to claim that they have Native American ancestry and white Australians who like to believe that they have Australian Aboriginal ancestors. Colonists often try to downplay their colonial heritage.

Some do. I'm very cool with being of European colonial stock unlike the Marxists who cry when they find out that Grandma was wrong about having Injun blood from Princess Sacawatha.

[Andullero]

Unlikely. Most "Scots Irish" or "Ulster Scots" are actually descended from Lowland and Border Scots. Most of them would have a mixture of Scottish and English ancestry. Scots-English would actually be a more appropriate title.

You don't consider the Scots still attached to their Gaelic heritage as your kin?

[celticdragongod]

You don't consider the Scots still attached to their Gaelic heritage as your kin?

Recent genetic research would indicate that i am descended from the Bell Beakers of the Netherlands. This doesn't make me Dutch.

[frankhammer]

I think Scotch-Irish is an acceptable term in context as it’s understood to be a sub-set of the Ulster Scots. The culture and local dialect of the American descendants distilled in such a way as to become a distinct sub-group. They’re not speaking Lowland Scots or whatever anymore, but what is now American English dialects.

In itself “Scotch-Irish” is a little bit of a funny term, but everyone by this point knows what we’re talking about when using that phrase.

Scotch reminds me of scotch egg or pie. :hungry:

[Purple Panther]

Recent genetic research would indicate that i am descended from the Bell Beakers of the Netherlands. This doesn't make me Dutch.

So, it doesn't make me European just because I descend from Europeans. I'm glad that we agree now.

[Albannach]

This reminds me of white Americans who like to claim that they have Native American ancestry and white Australians who like to believe that they have Australian Aboriginal ancestors. Colonists often try to downplay their colonial heritage.

It's not even remotely similar, Scots and Irish have been intermixing for thousands of years, even before there was such a thing as a Scot or Irishman, if you want to talk about colonists, Scotland itself was colonized by the Irish, it was Irish colonization that directly led to the extermination of Pictish culture.

And it isn't claims, intermarriage is verifiably backed up by records, I don't think there was much danger of the Scot planters romanticizing the Irish in the way that Americans romanticize the native Americans.

[celticdragongod]

It's not even remotely similar, Scots and Irish have been intermixing for thousands of years, even before there was such a thing as a Scot or Irishman, if you want to talk about colonists, Scotland itself was colonized by the Irish, it was Irish colonization that directly led to the extermination of Pictish culture.

And it isn't claims, intermarriage is verifiably backed up by records, I don't think there was much danger of the Scot planters romanticizing the Irish in the way that Americans romanticize the native Americans.

From what I understand, the Dalriada Irish invaders were never anything more than a minority in Scotland. Kind of like how the Normans were a minority in Britain. The way I understand it, most Scots are descended from Brittonic Celts, not Gaelic ones.

[celticdragongod]

So, it doesn't make me European just because I descend from Europeans. I'm glad that we agree now.

But you believe that the Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots are Irish.

[~Elizabeth~]

According to the most recent Ancestry DNA ethnicity estimate, I am 37% Scottish and 2% Irish.

https://i.postimg.cc/Vkj6TQ6y/Ancestry-DNA-2024-results.png

[Albannach]

From what I understand, the Dalriada Irish invaders were never anything more than a minority in Scotland. Kind of like how the Normans were a minority in Britain. The way I understand it, most Scots are descended from Brittonic Celts, not Gaelic ones.

I'm skeptical about such a huge culture change without significant population movement, and the fact that Scots and Irish are so close genetically would suggest there was a significant movement, but even if the Irish colonizers were a minority, they did a great job at totally wiping out the indigenous Pictish and Cumbric languages.

A genetic study by Trinity College in Dublin has the South Central Scots clustering with the Leinster Irish.

https://i.imgur.com/ehLo3EF.png

https://i.imgur.com/Dms8yBs.png

[robertb]

I wish people would stop using the term "Scots Irish". The so-called "Scots Irish" were Scottish people who stayed in Ireland for a few generations before moving on to North America. They aren't really Irish.

Pretty sure the Scots where a tribe from Ulster named the Scoti, so they just went back. lol

I prefer using Ulster-Scots myself. We rarely even call our self that and just say we're Americans.

[celticdragongod]

Pretty sure the Scots where a tribe from Ulster named the Scoti, so they just went back. lol

I prefer using Ulster-Scots myself. We rarely even call our self that and just say we're Americans.

The Scotti were a minority in Scotland. Most Scots are Brittonic Celts, not Gaelic ones.

[robertb]

We Guido Romans don't need a wall per se. We distract the Scots Irish by building Olive Garden, Hometown Buffet, and other bad restaurants that Scots Irish like. Afterwards they are too full to attack.

Hey that's not fair fattin us up like that. Hard to battle from our Rascal Scooter.

[robertb]

The Scotti were a minority in Scotland. Most Scots are Brittonic Celts, not Gaelic ones.

I'm not trying to steal your Irishness bro, I just claim being an American. I have zero desire to be any type of European.

[Purple Panther]

But you believe that the Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots are Irish.

Where did I say that? Crap, I must be posting in my sleep again.

[celticdragongod]

Where did I say that? Crap, I must be posting in my sleep again.

Actually I meant that as a question. I should have ended the sentence with a question mark.

[Leto]

So, it doesn't make me European just because I descend from Europeans. I'm glad that we agree now.
You did put "European", not "American" as your meta-ethnicity.

[Purple Panther]

Actually I meant that as a question. I should have ended the sentence with a question mark.

I hate it when that happens. Frankly, people are too mixed for jingoistic labels.

[Purple Panther]

You did put "European", not "American" as your meta-ethnicity.

I did. It applied.

[Purple Panther]

According to the most recent Ancestry DNA ethnicity estimate, I am 37% Scottish and 2% Irish.

https://i.postimg.cc/Vkj6TQ6y/Ancestry-DNA-2024-results.png

Did you take 23andMe? I'm still looking for my lost Saxon tribe with our 97% "British and Irish" score.

[Purple Panther]

Pretty sure the Scots where a tribe from Ulster named the Scoti, so they just went back. lol

I prefer using Ulster-Scots myself. We rarely even call our self that and just say we're Americans.

It's easier that way. I have varied flavors of "Irish" in my genes, but I don't know which ones meet the requirements to become members of the club.

[Purple Panther]

I'm not trying to steal your Irishness bro, I just claim being an American. I have zero desire to be any type of European.

Jack Dempsey and Audie Murphy would be denied entry into the Irish club, and ditto for Ronald Reagan. Highlander Albannach is the wrong kind of Gael, and Creoda is seen as biracial. I'm not even on the long list. Even Grace is seen as a Plastic Patty.

[robertb]

Those of us with Scots-Irish ancestors should remember it is just a name because many where not only Lowland Scots but Northern English and Welsh. I'm not into getting my DNA just to see my mix. I know I have Scot and Welsh and one German great grandfather. All this is one of the things that make us Americans.

[celticdragongod]

Those of us with Scots-Irish ancestors should remember it is just a name because many where not only Lowland Scots but Northern English and Welsh. I'm not into getting my DNA just to see my mix. I know I have Scot and Welsh and one German great grandfather. All this is one of the things that make us Americans.

This is why I think "Scots-Irish" is an inaccurate term.

[celticdragongod]

Jack Dempsey and Audie Murphy would be denied entry into the Irish club, and ditto for Ronald Reagan. Highlander Albannach is the wrong kind of Gael, and Creoda is seen as biracial. I'm not even on the long list. Even Grace is seen as a Plastic Patty.

I don't know about Jack Dempsey or Audie Murphy but - from what I understand - Reagan had an Irish father and a Scottish mother so he would actually be Scottish-Irish. Most of the so-called "Scots-Irish" are a mixture of Lowland Scots and Northern English. Few of them are highlanders like Albannach and I believe he also has recent Irish ancestry so - like Reagan - he would also be Scottish-Irish. Creoda has made no secret of the fact that his mother is English. I have never called Grace a "Plastic Patty" and - from what I understand - she has never claimed to be Scots-Irish.

[celticdragongod]

It's easier that way. I have varied flavors of "Irish" in my genes, but I don't know which ones meet the requirements to become members of the club.

I don't consider Lowland Scots or Northern English to be Irish. Highland Scots have Irish ancestry but most so-called "Scots-Irish" are not descended from Scottish Highlanders.

[robertb]

If I'm not mistaken Grace is from Ireland not NI. I prefer to use Ulster-Scot because they where not Irish but came to America from Ulster. Some may have some Irish blood also.

Funny after leaving NI Ulster-Scots and Catholic Irish never really had problems between them, myself have an Irish Catholic son in law. lol Maybe because many left because of the Church of England made the Calvinist basically second class citizens.

[celticdragongod]

If I'm not mistaken Grace is from Ireland not NI. I prefer to use Ulster-Scot because they where not Irish but came to America from Ulster. Some may have some Irish blood also.

Funny after leaving NI Ulster-Scots and Catholic Irish never really had problems between them, myself have an Irish Catholic son in law. lol Maybe because many left because of the Church of England made the Calvinist basically second class citizens.

The "Ulster Scots/Scots Irish" are not from any part of Ireland. They are from the Scottish Lowlands and Northern England. Most Irish Catholic immigrants settled in the northeastern United States while the "Ulster Scots/Scots Irish" settled in the southern United States. This is probably why there was never many problems between the two groups.

[Purple Panther]

I don't know about Jack Dempsey or Audie Murphy but - from what I understand - Reagan had an Irish father and a Scottish mother so he would actually be Scottish-Irish. Most of the so-called "Scots-Irish" are a mixture of Lowland Scots and Northern English. Few of them are highlanders like Albannach and I believe he also has recent Irish ancestry so - like Reagan - he would also be Scottish-Irish. Creoda has made no secret of the fact that his mother is English. I have never called Grace a "Plastic Patty" and - from what I understand - she has never claimed to be Scots-Irish.

It's a joke FFS. By they way, Ronald Reagan's mom was part English (shhh).

[Purple Panther]

I don't consider Lowland Scots or Northern English to be Irish. Highland Scots have Irish ancestry but most so-called "Scots-Irish" are not descended from Scottish Highlanders.

Thanks for the explanation. I always assumed that the Ulster Scottish were Chinese.

[celticdragongod]

Thanks for the explanation. I always assumed that the Ulster Scottish were Chinese.

The "Ulster Scottish" are Scottish, pure and simple.

[celticdragongod]

It's a joke FFS. By they way, Ronald Reagan's mom was part English (shhh).

So Reagan was Scots-Irish-English then.

[Purple Panther]

So Reagan was Scots-Irish-English then.

Nope. He was part Native Irish too, but he still can't join the club. You have to be a Catholic Irishman to join, like you have to be a Sicilian to join the Mafia. Biethnics (Creoda) and conversos (my Irishmen ancestors) won't make the cut.

[Purple Panther]

The "Ulster Scottish" are Scottish, pure and simple.

Really? Their passports beg to differ.

[J. Ketch]

Jack Dempsey and Audie Murphy would be denied entry into the Irish club, and ditto for Ronald Reagan. Highlander Albannach is the wrong kind of Gael, and Creoda is seen as biracial. I'm not even on the long list. Even Grace is seen as a Plastic Patty.
I'm not going to argue with a fully Irish person about who is Irish (unless they tell me Leo Varadkar is).

[J. Ketch]

Those of us with Scots-Irish ancestors should remember it is just a name because many where not only Lowland Scots but Northern English and Welsh. I'm not into getting my DNA just to see my mix. I know I have Scot and Welsh and one German great grandfather. All this is one of the things that make us Americans.
Being an undetermined ethnic mix?

[Purple Panther]

I'm not going to argue with a fully Irish person about who is Irish (unless they tell me Leo Varadkar is).

I will. I give two shits about who he thinks is really Irish.

[Albannach]

I don't consider Lowland Scots or Northern English to be Irish. Highland Scots have Irish ancestry but most so-called "Scots-Irish" are not descended from Scottish Highlanders.

A lot of Lowlanders have Irish ancestry too, and a lot of the Scottish planters, probably a majority came from Dumfries and Galloway, Galloway comes from Gall-Ghàidhealaibh "Amongst the foreign Gaels" Gaelic even survived there and in parts of Ayrshire into the 18th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_Gaelic

This Highland, Lowland stuff didn't exist before the 15th century, and the actual genetic division in Scotland is East-West rather than Highland-Lowland, this is due to the Davidian revolution and the introduction of the Burghs, when a lot of Frisian, French, and English traders were invited over to set up business in Scotland. Most Scottish planters came from areas that were historically Gaelic.

Ironically, from the small planter ancestry I have, they have the surnames Cameron and Ross, both Highland clan names.

You are correct in your other message, my mother is from Carna in Connemara, and her first language is Irish, I also have a lot of Irish ancestry on my Dad's side too.

https://i.imgur.com/hJGKzkv.png

[celticdragongod]

Nope. He was part Native Irish too, but he still can't join the club. You have to be a Catholic Irishman to join, like you have to be a Sicilian to join the Mafia. Biethnics (Creoda) and conversos (my Irishmen ancestors) won't make the cut.

I said Reagan was Scots-Irish-English which meant that he had Scottish, Irish and English ancestry. I don't remember saying anything about religion. I never denied that Creoda had Irish ancestry.

[celticdragongod]

Really? Their passports beg to differ.

Are you saying that "Ulster Scots" have Irish passports? Also passports indicate nothing about ancestry. All passports indicate is what country you are a citizen of.

[celticdragongod]

I'm not going to argue with a fully Irish person about who is Irish (unless they tell me Leo Varadkar is).

I don't think Leo Varadkar considers himself to be Irish. He certainly doesn't care about Irish people fighting homelessness.

[celticdragongod]

I will. I give two shits about who he thinks is really Irish.

Why? How do my views affect you?

[Purple Panther]

I said Reagan was Scots-Irish-English which meant that he had Scottish, Irish and English ancestry. I don't remember saying anything about religion. I never denied that Creoda had Irish ancestry.

Oh, okay. I misinterpreted the "-".

[Purple Panther]

Are you saying that "Ulster Scots" have Irish passports? Also passports indicate nothing about ancestry. All passports indicate is what country you are a citizen of.

Sure. They do if they live in Ireland.

[Purple Panther]

Why? How do my views affect you?

They affect us all (pardon my rudeness in the other post). You are the official arbiter of Irishness, the gatekeeper of who can claim Ireland, so you're extremely powerful.

[Purple Panther]

A lot of Lowlanders have Irish ancestry too, and a lot of the Scottish planters, probably a majority came from Dumfries and Galloway, Galloway comes from Gall-Ghàidhealaibh "Amongst the foreign Gaels" Gaelic even survived there and in parts of Ayrshire into the 18th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_Gaelic

This Highland, Lowland stuff didn't exist before the 15th century, and the actual genetic division in Scotland is East-West rather than Highland-Lowland, this is due to the Davidian revolution and the introduction of the Burghs, when a lot of Frisian, French, and English traders were invited over to set up business in Scotland. Most Scottish planters came from areas that were historically Gaelic.

Ironically, from the small planter ancestry I have, they have the surnames Cameron and Ross, both Highland clan names.

You are correct in your other message, my mother is from Carna in Connemara, and her first language is Irish, I also have a lot of Irish ancestry on my Dad's side too.

https://i.imgur.com/hJGKzkv.png

That's what people miss. They put the Ulster Scottish in the same Anglo-Saxon basket because, as you showed in your comment, they never realized that the demarcation was directional like it is in England. The Eastern Lowlands and the Western Lowlands are not the same as far as ethnicity is concerned, but people often thought that they were, which likely contributed to tragic historical consequences between members of the same tribe. By the way, I have some Cameron ancestors in the Highlander branch of my family tree.

[celticdragongod]

They affect us all (pardon my rudeness in the other post). You are the official arbiter of Irishness, the gatekeeper of who can claim Ireland, so you're extremely powerful.

I am merely expressing my opinion.

[Purple Panther]

Are you saying that "Ulster Scots" have Irish passports? Also passports indicate nothing about ancestry. All passports indicate is what country you are a citizen of.

I'm referring to nationality. I'm referring to citizens, with Scots-Irish ancestry, who live in Ireland, so this ain't exactly brain surgery.

[Purple Panther]

I am merely expressing my opinion.

It's all good. I'm just kidding around with you.

[Grace O'Malley]

It was always obvious that Picts were just like other Insular Celtic populations. All Insular Celtic populations have the same origin.

[Graham]

It was always obvious that Picts were just like other Insular Celtic populations. All Insular Celtic populations have the same origin.

Do you think the later Irish Iron Age would score like the Picts and North Britons in that they are more much more bronze age like, whereas southern Britain IA became more mixed from Continent?


I've forgotten if the Bronze age Irish and later iron age where close to the same thing.

[Graham]

Scotland modern next to Scottish samples that average AD.


GLOBAL 25 NORTHWEST EUROPE PCA

https://i.ibb.co/w7qTWXr/image.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Do you think the later Irish Iron Age would score like the Picts and North Britons in that they are more much more bronze age like, whereas southern Britain IA became more mixed from Continent?


I've forgotten if the Bronze age Irish and later iron age where close to the same thing.

It's been a while since I read Lara Cassidy's thesis on the subject. I would have to reread but yes I think the Iron Age Irish were closer to the Bronze Age Irish so the Picts would be close to them also. From memory around the Iron Age there was some migration from Britain. I'll have to reread that thesis again.