Finn Tat-C controversy

[Rudy]

Here is some information of the Finn Tat-C controversy. I believe that type N originated near the Middle East, and is not specifically Asian.
http://www.white-history.com/finland.htm
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/berthold_2008/Haplogroup_F_Y-DNA.jpg

[Äike]

Here is some information of the Finn Tat-C controversy. I believe that type N originated near the Middle East, and is not specifically Asian.
http://www.white-history.com/finland.htm
http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/berthold_2008/Haplogroup_F_Y-DNA.jpg

I would say that the Tat-C comes from the Lapps. Not pure Finns.

[Treffie]

I would say that the Tat-C comes from the Lapps. Not pure Finns.

Slightly off topic here. I was led to believe that the Lapps are genetically the oldest people in Europe. Can someone possibly shed any light on this if possible?

[Äike]

Slightly off topic here. I was led to believe that the Lapps are genetically the oldest people in Europe. Can someone possibly shed any light on this if possible?

There are many theories. Some say that they are the first people of Europe. Who were here before the white people: Finno-Ugrics, Indo-Europeans and Basques.

But other theory's say that the Lapps came to Northern Scandinavia when Northern Europe was already full of Finno-Ugrics, especially Scandinavia. And they adopted a Finno-Ugric language because of the huge pressure from their neighbors.

[Hors]

I would say that the Tat-C comes from the Lapps. Not pure Finns.


Estonians have ~40% of TAT-C. It's the major component in their genepool.

Do you speak Lappish? ;)

[Lenny]

Slightly off topic here. I was led to believe that the Lapps are genetically the oldest people in Europe. Can someone possibly shed any light on this if possible?Mongoloid protoLapps in Europe before Cro-Magnon entered in large waves 35,000 years ago? I don't think so.

Considering where they live, they must have entered from the far north after the ice retreated, which is only a few thousand years ago at that latitude. Modern European genetics is largely CroMagnon, who were in Europe in large numbers tens of thousand of years earlier than the Lapps.

But what is meant by the phrase "oldest genetically" anyway?; I'm not clear on that.

[Treffie]

Mongoloid protoLapps in Europe before Cro-Magnon entered in large waves 35,000 years ago? I don't think so.

Considering where they live, they must have entered from the far north after the ice retreated, which is only a few thousand years ago at that latitude. Modern European genetics is largely CroMagnon, who were in Europe in large numbers tens of thousand of years earlier than the Lapps.

But what is meant by the phrase "oldest genetically" anyway?; I'm not clear on that.

Apparently there's something linking Lapps to Iberia. If anyone can provide more information on this, please post it. :thumb001:

[Lenny]

Apparently there's something linking Lapps to Iberia. If anyone can provide more information on this, please post it. :thumb001:Maybe they share some genes, but their genepools certainly weren't* too similar overall.


* I use the past tense because speaking of the Laaps (Saami) of today is speaking of a totally different people than they were even 200 years ago. Today they've absorbed so much European blood that they're racially East-Baltic rather than strict Lappid!

The Baltid-Lappid spectrum as I understand it:

Baltid------EastBaltid------------------------Lappid-proper
---------------(ModernLapps)

-"Baltid" is a totally CM type; and is a.k.a WestBaltid(?) to differentiate between the East-Baltid type.
-"EastBaltid" is a type with a Baltid base that shows lappoid influence; but generally more CM than lappoid.
-Lappid proper, defined the ancient Lapps (before contact with Scanidnavians). Look for black-and-white photos of Lapps and you'll see this type.
-The small number of intermarriages by intrepid Scandinavians relatively recently has overwhelmed the tiny Lapp genepool, such that the Lapps being born today are basically East-Baltics. The pure Lappid type is actually extinct in Lapland.

Anyone disagree with any of that?

[Hors]

-"Baltid" is a totally CM type; and is a.k.a WestBaltid(?) to differentiate between the East-Baltid type.

Baltid is Eastern CM (Bruenn), reduced and brachycephalized, without Lappid influence.

West-Baltid is Eastern CM, not (significantly) reduced and brachycephalized, without Lappid influence

Baltids and Nordids of all kinds with Lappid influence are East-Baltids

[Eldritch]

Do you speak Lappish? ;)

Do you speak Martian?

You know, it's not easy to speak a language that doesn't exist. Can't you get your facts straight even once?

And another thing: despite this, it's still me, the "Finnish poster", who does nothing but troll, spam and flame, am I right? :rolleyes:

[Äike]

East-Baltid did not come from mixing with Lapps...

Living in the coldest climates possible for tens of thousands of years created that.

[EWtt]

Estonians have ~40% of TAT-C. It's the major component in their genepool.

Do you speak Lappish? ;)

Haplogroup N3a1? It's distributed around a third in Estonia, Northern Russians have "Tat-C" as well. Anthropologically Estonia is/was divided between West and North (Nordid and Baltid) and the East (with the East-Baltid type). The somewhat slanty eyes and high cheekbones are indeed rather cold adaptions resulting from harsh climate - East-Baltids also tend to have the brightest colour of blond hair.

[Hors]

The somewhat slanty eyes and high cheekbones are indeed rather cold adaptions resulting from harsh climate

The climate of Estonia isn't that different from that of Scandinavia. How come Estonians have adapted while Scandinavians have not?

[EWtt]

The climate of Estonia isn't that different from that of Scandinavia. How come Estonians have adapted while Scandinavians have not?

Well, the majority of Estonians aren't East Baltid, either. I would guess East-Baltids are closest to the original post-ice age inhabitants of the Baltic area. It was common for most Europeans in that era to have higher cheekbones and flatter facial features. They have just been more heavily borealized over thousands of years.

[Hors]

Well, the majority of Estonians aren't East Baltid, either

Coastal Estonians descend more from the original Balto-Slavic population of Estonia and later Germanic settlers than from Fenno-Ugrians.

[Hweinlant]

Tat-C aka N1c was in Europe about 14 kya ago. Rurik the Rus, founder of Viking Russ state (now invaded by eastern slavs) was N1c, like all his decendants, the Rurikid royal family lineage. It's bit suprising that there was enough royals left after the Slavo-Jewish bolshevik revolution so that the genetic testing was possible.

Fenno-Scandinavian state, Novgorod Republic, left massive genetic inprint to NW Russia. Slavo-Turkic (Turkic = Tatar Turkic/Khazar Jewish) Moscovite occupation of several hundred years have not yet destroyed everything it seems.

[Hweinlant]

"Dr Aleksander Saksa illuminated the people that lived
on the north side of the great Lake Ladoga, whose
culture and way of life were intensely involved with
waterways, the Karelians. According to evidence of
burial sites from the 9th – 10th centuries they emerge
as emigrants from western Finland. Most of the graves
in the fi rst phase are those of men and contain a large
number of weapons, their types being common Nordic
ones, which indicate that the first setlers were warriortradesmen."

http://www.nrf.is/Publications/The%20Borde...Theme_Ahola.pdf

Staraya Ladoga and Khaganate of Rus':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate

And who established the state of Rus, according to Primary Russian Chronicle':

to the Rus’: these particular
Varangians were known as
Rus’, just as some are
called Swedes, and others
Normans, English, others
also Goths, for they were
thus named.

The Chuds [Estonians&Vörus; Finnics], the Slavs[Slovene-tribe], the
Krivichians[Latvians], and the Ves’[Vepsians:Finnic]
then said to the people of
Rus’[Finnic],

“Our land is great and rich,
but there is no order in it.
Come to rule and reign over
us.”

http://www.slav.helsinki.fi/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Lind.pdf

Horrible Tat-C, how dare we!

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I would say that the Tat-C comes from the Lapps. Not pure Finns.

N1c (as it is known today) is part of the genepool of pure Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians... How could it have come from Saamis?

Highly UNLIKELY.

It has spread to Saamis from people who arrived 4-6000 years ago to the region.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Coastal Estonians descend more from the original Balto-Slavic population of Estonia and later Germanic settlers than from Fenno-Ugrians.

Rubbish.

Coastal Estonians were just like he coastal Finns, non slavic. The slavic component in Balts is relatively late phenomena, brought by migrating Slavic peoples.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The climate of Estonia isn't that different from that of Scandinavia. How come Estonians have adapted while Scandinavians have not?

How do you know they have not? Do you know how common "east baltidness" is in "germanics"? Super common, I'd say. And no it's not Finnic influence. All those german "alpines", are they nothing but "east baltids" (with a different anthrobull name)?

The cold adaption may be a legacy from the people residing there the longest and in this context the "germanic" have not been there as long as pre germanic peoples. Who they were we don't know for sure, but their genes may still be around through som really old Mtdna like U5 for instance.
U5 is a hunter gatherer haplogroup, present in Europe for +10000 years.

[ikki]

Vörus

>Vörå

K_NxgYBFCjM :p