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View Full Version : Caucasian Alans on G25



axlredneck
01-26-2024, 11:20 AM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Caucasus_1060_map_en.svg/2560px-Caucasus_1060_map_en.svg.png
https://i.ibb.co/mG7R1rw/IMG-20240126-172001.png


The Alans were a nomadic pastoral people of the North Caucasus in antiquity and early medieval times, generally regarded as part of the Sarmatians.

The Alans founded the powerful kingdom of Alania in the North Caucasus in the 9th century; it survived until the Mongol invasions of the 13th century CE.

axlredneck
01-26-2024, 11:21 AM
Apparently, one of the guys looked like this! (Found this on Reddit)
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT32IPESZC7I5Aq7ATPPNcXJsVWgmpgR 3IGwg&usqp=CAU

Distances:
https://i.ibb.co/VSC9QFM/IMG-20240126-173153.jpg

DA146 is excluded from the average.

axlredneck
01-26-2024, 11:24 AM
https://i.ibb.co/mtJ1xW5/IMG-20240126-171329.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/qm5STkD/IMG-20240126-171009.jpg

axlredneck
01-26-2024, 11:29 AM
RUS_Alan_MA,0.1104082,0.1023145,-0.0193272,-0.0107398,-0.027851,-0.0009762,0.0055225,-0.004673,-0.0407512,-0.0214582,0.0041818,0.0077182,-0.0170588,-0.0040598,0.0023752,-0.0080215,0.0071712,-0.005321,-0.0078875,0.006691,0.003182,0.003524,0.0005548,-0.0012955,-0.002395
Koban,0.11009464,0.13358239,-0.05754964,-0.04764413,-0.04022328,-0.00797907,0.01190018,-0.0057431,-0.06708308,-0.02336725,0.00043173,0.01381844,-0.02920175,0.00656561,0.00321475,-0.02657108,0.00943529,-0.00575406,-0.01091213,0.0187863,0.01312288,0.00303371,-0.00087708,-0.00926565,-0.00241103
Crimean,0.1122107,0.1585073,-0.0311125,-0.0701987,0.0053598,-0.0258903,0.0014688,-0.0066342,-0.0052323,0.0326203,0.0025577,0.0079055,-0.0163032,-0.0015368,-0.0174626,0.0026738,0.0201877,0.0009291,0.0062743,-0.0039498,-0.0062806,0.0035138,-0.0008218,0.0006126,-0.0009878
Sarmatian,0.110409,0.0353771,0.0327165,0.0635579,-0.0194552,0.022941,-0.0016334,-0.0037087,-0.0238238,-0.0432486,-0.0009342,-0.0007309,-0.0021737,-0.0156617,0.014285,0.0154616,-0.0020452,-0.0081337,-0.0099394,-0.0028903,-0.0107529,0.0044,0.0007447,0.0077697,-0.003322
Noise,-0.028628936,-0.284340447,1.864031404,1.011251258,-2.379487775,-1.098026102,0.118093316,0.485611875,0.949777102,-0.070433472,3.893125512,0.030577164,0.442123911,-1.423661277,-1.437220625,-1.107018146,0.08978144,0.19608926,-0.098616508,-0.720808442,1.67210502,-0.06900364,0.846371078,0.322936855,0.107873532
pre-Sarmatian,0.110623655,0.139813618,-0.050940355,-0.053282773,-0.02882751,-0.012456877,0.009292335,-0.005965875,-0.051620385,-0.009370363,0.000963223,0.012340205,-0.025977112,0.004540007,-0.001954588,-0.01925986,0.012123392,-0.00408327,-0.006615523,0.013102275,0.00827201,0.003153732,-0.00086326,-0.006796088,-0.002055223
https://i.ibb.co/CM8Sxjk/IMG-20240126-171150.png

axlredneck
01-26-2024, 11:31 AM
Modern historians have connected the Alans with the Central Asian Yancai of Chinese sources and with the Aorsi of Roman sources. Having migrated westwards and becoming dominant among the Sarmatians on the Pontic–Caspian steppe, the Alans are mentioned by Roman sources in the 1st century CE. At that time they had settled the region north of the Black Sea and frequently raided the Parthian Empire and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire. From 215 to 250 CE the Goths broke their power on the Pontic Steppe.

axlredneck
01-26-2024, 11:38 AM
This is important! The Caucasus of antiquity and early medieval times had significant Anatolian ancestry, stemming from both Anatolia proper and Crimea, which was settled by Hellenized Carians in the Iron Ages.

https://i.ibb.co/gSFp3ZW/IMG-20240126-171009.jpg

Leto
01-26-2024, 11:52 AM
So the majority of their ancestry was native Caucasian. Interesting. Ironically modern Ossetians have lower Steppe ancestry than all the other North Caucasian groups despite the Iranic language. Also R1a is barely present in North Ossetia.

Kess
01-26-2024, 02:05 PM
Target: kesseras_simulated_g25_scaled
Distance: 2.5095% / 0.02509522
26.2 Sarmatian
21.4 Koban
18.2 pre-Sarmatian

Distance to: kesseras_simulated_g25_scaled
0.02774406 RUS_Alan_MA
0.06876609 pre-Sarmatian
0.07678894 Koban
0.10933524 Crimean
0.13572862 Sarmatian
6.13440966 Noise

axlredneck
01-26-2024, 03:37 PM
Target: kesseras_simulated_g25_scaled
Distance: 2.5095% / 0.02509522
26.2 Sarmatian
21.4 Koban
18.2 pre-Sarmatian

Distance to: kesseras_simulated_g25_scaled
0.02774406 RUS_Alan_MA
0.06876609 pre-Sarmatian
0.07678894 Koban
0.10933524 Crimean
0.13572862 Sarmatian
6.13440966 Noise

Are you a full Karachay? I'd suggest you buy actual G25 coordinates.

Kess
01-26-2024, 03:44 PM
Are you a full Karachay? I'd suggest you buy actual G25 coordinates.

No 1/2.

axlredneck
01-27-2024, 08:43 AM
Regarding the language spoken by the Koban culture, I think they were Svan (or a closely related Kartvelian dialect) speaking people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svans
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svan_language

Dantevici
01-27-2024, 11:10 AM
Distance to: me_scaled
0.05484635 RUS_Alan_MA
0.09624280 pre-Sarmatian
0.10925666 Crimean
0.10930448 Koban
0.12850277 Sarmatian
6.13411274 Noise

Target: me_scaled
Distance: 4.0928% / 0.04092792
39.0 Crimean
38.2 Sarmatian
13.0 pre-Sarmatian
9.6 RUS_Alan_MA
0.2 Koban

Annihilus
01-27-2024, 11:31 AM
Target: annihilus_v2_scaled
Distance: 2.4811% / 0.02481082
49.2 Crimean
30.4 RUS_Alan_MA
20.4 Sarmatian

axlredneck
01-27-2024, 12:28 PM
This is important! The Caucasus of antiquity and early medieval times had significant Anatolian ancestry, stemming from both Anatolia proper and Crimea, which was settled by Hellenized Carians in the Iron Ages.

https://i.ibb.co/gSFp3ZW/IMG-20240126-171009.jpg


Upcoming paper with 200 ancient DNA samples from Georgia by the Max Planck Institute (Skourtanioti)

Some key points that can be inferred from the abstract:

1. 200 new ancient genomes from Georgia spanning Early Bronze Age to Early Middle Ages (roughly, 3500 BCE to 1000 CE).
2. "Remarkably high degree of genetic continuity" from the Bronze Age until the Christianisation of Georgia.
3. Between the early Christianisation period and the Early Middle Ages, "gene flow from Anatolia" was identified.
4. During the same time, "individuals of Central Asian origin" were observed, although they do not appear to have significantly changed the genepool.
5. Most of the artificially elongated skulls they examined belonged to "individuals of local ancestry", i.e. those of ethnic Georgian ancestry.

The research was presented at a conference in Estonia last September, and is presumably awaiting publication.

https://i.ibb.co/NtvJ2qq/FB-IMG-1706349045949.jpg

Leto
01-27-2024, 02:31 PM
Upcoming paper with 200 ancient DNA samples from Georgia by the Max Planck Institute (Skourtanioti)

Some key points that can be inferred from the abstract:


The research was presented at a conference in Estonia last September, and is presumably awaiting publication.

https://i.ibb.co/NtvJ2qq/FB-IMG-1706349045949.jpg
Interesting but nothing particularly groundbreaking. Some gene flow from Asia Minor and Armenia is totally plausible. I would even expect some Iranian influence as well. And Central Asian admixture is next to undetectable in modern Georgians. Sometimes they do score like 1-2% Siberian on Gedmatch but that may not even be real because Central or Southern Europeans get that as well once in a while.

Frowning Man
02-01-2024, 09:07 AM
Target: Rati_scaled
Distance: 2.4401% / 0.02440110
98.8 Koban
1.2 pre-Sarmatian

Distance to: Rati_scaled
0.02443467 Koban
0.03761029 pre-Sarmatian
0.08519620 RUS_Alan_MA
0.12081265 Crimean
0.20540396 Sarmatian
6.14948665 Noise

Frowning Man
02-01-2024, 09:40 AM
Regarding the language spoken by the Koban culture, I think they were Svan (or a closely related Kartvelian dialect) speaking people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svans
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svan_language

There is also a theory that they spoke Mingrelian. Since the entire west of Georgia (plain), up to the eastern borders of Imereti, was Mingrelian-speaking. The Koban culture is very similar to the Colchis culture and is considered by some to be a continuation of the Colchis culture. The same Koban axes are exactly the same as Colchian axes. There is a theory about the resettlement of the Colchians (Mingrelian-speaking) in the territory of Daryal and their bringing of Colchian elements and that they left their tribal names there. For example, the old tribes that lived in the mountains near Daryal, according to Ossetian legends, are Argi, Dvals and Tsartsyats (Tsanars among Georgians).
Arg - is the root of the tribal self-name of Mingrelians. There are a lot of places in Georgia with the Arg root, as a memory of the old Colchian population.
Gamrikeli considered the Dvalovs Mingrelian-speaking.
Tsanar - Tsan, the root of the self-name of the Colchian tribes - Tsan, Zan, Chan, San.

Impaler
02-01-2024, 09:53 AM
Distance to: Father
0.06630432 RUS_Alan_MA
0.10901763 Crimean
0.10997630 pre-Sarmatian
0.12352433 Sarmatian
0.12546317 Koban
6.13490184 Noise

Target: Father
Distance: 3.6146% / 0.03614558
53.4 Crimean
46.6 Sarmatian

axlredneck
02-02-2024, 09:48 AM
There is also a theory that they spoke Mingrelian. Since the entire west of Georgia (plain), up to the eastern borders of Imereti, was Mingrelian-speaking. The Koban culture is very similar to the Colchis culture and is considered by some to be a continuation of the Colchis culture. The same Koban axes are exactly the same as Colchian axes. There is a theory about the resettlement of the Colchians (Mingrelian-speaking) in the territory of Daryal and their bringing of Colchian elements and that they left their tribal names there. For example, the old tribes that lived in the mountains near Daryal, according to Ossetian legends, are Argi, Dvals and Tsartsyats (Tsanars among Georgians).
Arg - is the root of the tribal self-name of Mingrelians. There are a lot of places in Georgia with the Arg root, as a memory of the old Colchian population.
Gamrikeli considered the Dvalovs Mingrelian-speaking.
Tsanar - Tsan, the root of the self-name of the Colchian tribes - Tsan, Zan, Chan, San.

Plausible!

axlredneck
02-02-2024, 01:08 PM
Target: Rati_scaled
Distance: 2.4401% / 0.02440110
98.8 Koban
1.2 pre-Sarmatian

Distance to: Rati_scaled
0.02443467 Koban
0.03761029 pre-Sarmatian
0.08519620 RUS_Alan_MA
0.12081265 Crimean
0.20540396 Sarmatian
6.14948665 Noise

Do you mind sharing your coordinates here or in a PM?

tk'es
03-08-2024, 11:52 AM
Target: tk'es_scaled
Distance: 3.7680% / 0.03768049
56.8 Koban
30.4 Sarmatian
10.4 RUS_Alan_MA
2.4 pre-Sarmatian


Distance to: tk'es_scaled
0.04186788 RUS_Alan_MA
0.07740996 Koban
0.07975277 pre-Sarmatian
0.13480876 Sarmatian
0.13488450 Crimean
6.13609645 Noise





Distance to: tk'es
0.14310426 Sarmatian
0.14319049 RUS_Alan_MA
0.18546791 pre-Sarmatian
0.18650822 Koban
0.20968108 Crimean
6.12596772 Noise


Target: tk'es
Distance: 12.8562% / 0.12856177
68.0 Sarmatian
14.2 Koban
13.4 pre-Sarmatian
4.4 Crimean








what an obvious expectation

axlredneck
06-02-2024, 10:57 AM
https://i.ibb.co/rdNQQ5f/IMG-20240602-162512.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/zNZ1C7D/IMG-20240602-162332.jpg

Anatolya
06-02-2024, 12:48 PM
Target: Anatolya_scaled
Distance: 4.6410% / 0.04641038
22.4 Crimean
22.2 Koban
19.8 pre-Sarmatian
19.4 RUS_Alan_MA
16.2 Sarmatian

Distance to: Anatolya_scaled
0.05528220 RUS_Alan_MA
0.06591236 pre-Sarmatian
0.07666899 Koban
0.10233315 Crimean
0.15919923 Sarmatian
6.14064528 Noise

axlredneck
06-03-2024, 09:11 AM
https://youtu.be/eWeILSvvlYE