Who is to blame for the start of WW1?

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37QFb-LRd9Q

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

So far blame can be laid squarely on your mom by 2 votes.

[Andullero]

So far blame can be laid squarely on your mom by 2 votes.

My money is on the UK not wanting to share any further slice of the global pie with the 2nd Reich. Austro-Hungarian troubles were just a pretext. Of course, it didnt help things the fact that Wilhelm II was quite belligerent, reckless and anxious to move away from Bismarckian caution. France had its own grievances to bring to the table over still being butthurt over having their asses handed to them during the Franco-Prussian war and its aftermath.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It wasn't a country per se that triggered the first war in my opinion, but an event that sparked pre-existing tensions between various powers.

[Dušan]

Austria-Hungary and its imperialist "drang nach Süd-Ost" toward Balkans - Bosnia, Serbia etc.

[Tooting Carmen]

It is certainly a case that Germany was treated very vindictively at the Treaty of Versailles. Absent the horrific economic collapse that followed, would the Nazis have come anywhere close to power?

[Andullero]

It is certainly a case that Germany was treated very vindictively at the Treaty of Versailles. Absent the horrific economic collapse that followed, would the Nazis have come anywhere close to power?

More than that, I'd say that the catalyst for their rise was the stupid American insistence in abolishing the Prussian monarchy. The Nazis wouldnt have the monarchists/legitimistic elements of the Prussian army backing them otherwise.

[Tooting Carmen]

More than that, I'd say that the catalyst for their rise was the stupid American insistence in abolishing the Prussian monarchy. The Nazis wouldnt have the monarchists/legitimistic elements of the Prussian army backing them otherwise.

Except that the relationship between the Nazis and the traditional aristocratic elites was mutually disdainful.

[Andullero]

Except that the relationship between the Nazis and the traditional aristocratic elites was mutually disdainful.

Yeah, but the latter were at least wise enough to realize that it was either them Nazis or falling into the tender mercies of the communists. I'm sure it wasn't lost on them what happened to the French and Russian aristocracies when these ones failed to make their peace with the reactionary elements of the burgueoise.

[Tooting Carmen]

Yeah, but the latter were at least wise enough to realize that it was either the Nazis or falling into the tender mercies of the communists. I'm sure it wasn't lost on them what happened to the French and Russian aristocracies when these ones failed to make their peace with the reactionary elements of the bourgeoise.

Although it is true to an extent that powerful business interests did fund and support the Nazis, the traditional aristocracy regarded them as vulgar and plebeian from the start and kept their distance.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, I would say it was the fault of several countries to varying degrees. The supposed peace brought about by the two big blocs of the Triple Alliance and the Triple Entente would ultimately blow up and produce the opposite effect. (Ironically, had nuclear weapons existed back then, maybe the two blocs could've maintained a peace of sorts with each other, much like the US and USSR just about managed throughout the Cold War).

[Andullero]

Although it is true to an extent that powerful business interests did fund and support the Nazis, the traditional aristocracy regarded them as vulgar and plebeian from the start and kept their distance.



Wilhelm II, to his credit, kept himself aloof in the Netherlands when Hitler wanted him to give sanction to his regime (sort of like Mussolini sought, and got, Victor Emmanuel III's sanction for the fascist one in Italy).

[Tooting Carmen]

Wilhelm II, to his credit, kept himself aloof in the Netherlands when Hitler wanted him to give sanction to his regime (sort of like Mussolini sought, and got, Victor Emmanuel III's sanction for the fascist one in Italy).

One thing I do wonder is whether or not Hitler brought up the decidedly thorny issue of Trento and Alto-Adige with Mussolini? After all, given the Nazis' putative claim to want to unite all the German-speaking peoples in one Reich, why not capture the lost territories across the Alps too?

[Scarface F]

Serbia ofcourse, but they were just pawns of larger powers who stood behind them.

Pro-Austria-Hungary Obrenović dynasty was slaughtered in 1903 and violently replaced with pro-Russian and pro-French Karađorđević dynasty. Same circles later organized assasination of Franz Ferdinand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Serbia)

[Incal]

My money is on the UK not wanting to share any further slice of the global pie with the 2nd Reich. Austro-Hungarian troubles were just a pretext. Of course, it didnt help things the fact that Wilhelm II was quite belligerent, reckless and anxious to move away from Bismarckian caution. France had its own grievances to bring to the table over still being butthurt over having their asses handed to them during the Franco-Prussian war and its aftermath.

Germany and Japan have always been major players and potential world leaders. That's why after WWII the anglo-jewry decided to nerf them and make 'em cucks. (sorry I know a lil off-topic but still related)

[Scarface F]

Germany and Japan have always been major players and potential world leaders. That's why after WWII the anglo-jewry decided to nerf them and make 'em cucks. (sorry I know a lil off-topic but still related)

Japanese are not cucks. They are just weird. Japanese culture is still extremelly merciless towards each others and high demanding as it always was.

[Tooting Carmen]

Germany and Japan have always been major players and potential world leaders.

Economically yes, but both got into the colonisation game much later than the UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain and Portugal did.


That's why after WWII the anglo-jewry decided to nerf them and make 'em cucks. (sorry I know a lil off-topic but still related)

To which could possibly be added the Anglophone world's disdain towards France and seeking to neuter its influence too.

[Incal]

Japanese are not cucks. They are just weird. Japanese culture is still extremelly merciless towards each others and high demanding as it always was.

They are weird and cucked. They don't fuck, are afraid of women and keep committing suicide.



Economically yes, but both got into the colonisation game much later than the UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain and Portugal did.

And? Your posts never say anything.

[Scarface F]

They are weird and cucked. They don't fuck, are afraid of women and keep committing suicide.

Suicide is seen as honorable in Japanese culture. Better death than shame on family name. I agree with the rest. Still far less cucked than based right wing Europeans who support legal immigration lol.

If we exclude gaming culture that is destroying them, I have incredible respect for Japanese. I think they are furthest from animals of all humans.

Magnificent collective and culture.

[Dušan]

Serbia ofcourse, but they were just pawns of larger powers who stood behind them.

Pro-Austria-Hungary Obrenović dynasty was slaughtered in 1903 and violently replaced with pro-Russian and pro-French Karađorđević dynasty. Same circles later organized assasination of Franz Ferdinand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Serbia)


It seems that the Habsburgs really thought that the Serbs in Bosnia were on the same level as the American or Australian natives, disenfranchised and created for colonization and exploitation, without the right to self-determination.

Oh, they made a grave mistake.
Bosnia was the bite with which the gluttonous Austro-Hungary choked and died.

[Scarface F]

It seems that the Habsburgs really thought that the Serbs in Bosnia were on the same level as the American or Australian natives, disenfranchised and created for colonization and exploitation, without the right to self-determination.

Only in mind of Serb nationalists Bosnia belonged to Serbia.


Oh, they made a grave mistake.
Bosnia was the bite with which the gluttonous Austro-Hungary choked and died.

Indeed they did, they made mistake centuries earlier when they settled masses of Serbs inside Habsburg Empire and gave them political rights and privileges. They should have listened Croatian Parliament that officialy protested againt it but was ignored.

[Incal]

Suicide is seen as honorable in Japanese culture. Better death than shame on family name. I agree with the rest. Still far less cucked than based right wing Europeans who support legal immigration lol.

If we exclude gaming culture that is destroying them, I have incredible respect for Japanese. I think they are furthest from animals of all humans.

Magnificent collective and culture.

Before yeah (seppuku style), now they kill themselves because the boss yelled at them or they're bullied.

But overall, I also think they are some of the most admirable people in the world: that's why they've been nerfed and cucked by the anglo-jewry, they are threatening to their plans and could wake up again any day.

[Andullero]

To which could possibly be added the Anglophone world's disdain towards France and seeking to neuter its influence too.

I have always found Uncle Sam's tolerance to their keeping outremer territories in this continent odd in light of this.

[Scarface F]

Before yeah (seppuku style), now they kill themselves because the boss yelled at them or they're bullied.

But overall, I also think they are some of the most admirable people in the world: that's why they've been nerfed and cucked by the anglo-jewry, they are threatening to their plans and could wake up again any day.

Yes. I also had personal dealings with them and was extremelly impressed.

Never met more honorable, moral, polite and dignified people than them. Their sense of community, hard work, being clean and aesthetic sense don't even eneed to be discussed.

If anyone is superior nation, that would be Japanese, but it is just my opinion and I understand different people value different things.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Serbia ofcourse, but they were just pawns of larger powers who stood behind them.

Pro-Austria-Hungary Obrenović dynasty was slaughtered in 1903 and violently replaced with pro-Russian and pro-French Karađorđević dynasty. Same circles later organized assasination of Franz Ferdinand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Serbia)

What is the evidence they organized the assassination?

[Dušan]

Only in mind of Serb nationalists Bosnia belonged to Serbia.



Indeed they did, they made mistake centuries earlier when they settled masses of Serbs inside Habsburg Empire and gave them political rights and privileges. They should have listened Croatian Parliament that officialy protested againt it but was ignored.

Bosnia belongs to its people, and in that time Serbs were the most numerous nation in Bosnia, wanting right on self-determination and joining Serbia.

What Habsburgs got with denying rights of Bosnian Serbs? They got Trianon in the end.

Serbs in Bosnia are alive and well, with their Serb Republic.

Where is Austria-Hungary, where is Ottoman empire? No more in this world. :D

[Scarface F]

What is the evidence they organized the assassination?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragutin_Dimitrijevi%C4%87


Dragutin Dimitrijević (Serbian Cyrillic: Драгутин Димитријевић; 17 August 1876 – 24 June 1917), better known by his nickname Apis, was a Serbian army officer and chief of the military intelligence section of the general staff in 1913. He is best known as the most prominent member of the Black Hand, a secret military society that organised the 1903 overthrow of the Serbian government and assassination of King Alexander I of Serbia and Queen Draga. Some scholars believe that he also initiated the plot to kill the Archduke Franz Ferdinand in June 1914, which led to the July Crisis and the outbreak of World War I.

[Tooting Carmen]

I have always found Uncle Sam's tolerance to their keeping outremer territories in this continent odd in light of this.

Yeah, but otherwise French power and influence has massively declined. Don't forget that lawyers, diplomats and intellectuals used to use French as the international standard language of communication. Moreover, before the 1970's it was the only other working language (along with German) of the then-EC.

[Scarface F]

Bosnia belongs to its people, and in that time Serbs were the most numerous nation in Bosnia, wanting right on self-determination and joining Serbia.

Serbs became majority in Bosnia only due to the Ottomans. I don't see how that matters, historical rights should be respected otherwise no reason to cry about Kosovo, where Albanians became majority as well.

[Dušan]

Serbs becamse majority in Bosnia only due to the Ottomans. I don't see how that matters, historical rights should be respected otherwise no reason to cry about Kosovo, where Albanians became majority as well.

Austria-Hungary didnt have any historical nor moral rights to take Bosnia.
We saw how ended denaying rights of Serbs in Bosnia to live in freedom.

[Scarface F]

Austria-Hungary didnt have any historical nor moral rights to take Bosnia.
We saw how ended denaying rights of Serbs in Bosnia to live in freedom.

Croatia did, and Croatia was part of Austria-Hungary.

Croatian Parliament demanded unification of Bosnia, but Vienna and Budapest rejected that. Bosnia remained joint-occupied territory in dual Monarchy.

[Dušan]

Croatia did, and Croatia was part of Austria-Hungary.

Croatian Parliament demanded unification of Bosnia, but Vienna and Budapest rejected that. Bosnia remained joint-occupied territory in dual Monarchy.

You can only dream about it, there would be uprising all over, and war would broke out as it did.

Anyway, saga ended with Serbs satisfied in their half of Bosnia, and Muslims and Croats "enjoying" each other in their half. :D

[Incal]

If anyone is superior nation, that would be Japanese, but it is just my opinion and I understand different people value different things.

Not many people is aware of this, but Asia-Pacific's explosive growth was thanks to the Japanese.

Lee Kuan Yew, father of Singapore, referred to them as follows: «No nation in Asia can match them, not the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, or Southeast Asians. They consider themselves a special people. You are either born a Japanese and therefore in that magic circle, or you are not. This myth of being special makes them a formidable force as a nation, a corporation, or a team in any workplace.»

[Tooting Carmen]

Yes. I also had personal dealings with them and was extremelly impressed.

Never met more honorable, moral, polite and dignified people than them. Their sense of community, hard work, being clean and aesthetic sense don't even eneed to be discussed.

If anyone is superior nation, that would be Japanese, but it is just my opinion and I understand different people value different things.

Well the Japanese have managed to develop a remarkably successful economy and orderly society. However, they seem to have serious mental health issues and a catastrophically low birth rate.

[Kess]

However, they seem to have serious mental health issues.

How?

[drb234]

How?

they have vending machines for used panties.. clearly not very mentally well

[Kess]

they have vending machines for used panties.. clearly not very mentally well

They are infamously pervy, but if Japan is crazy, What is the US, then?

[Tooting Carmen]

How?

Very high suicide and depression rates.

[Kess]

Very high suicide and depression rates.

I disagree.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/depression-rates-by-country

[KirillMazur]

The first and main reason for the World War is, of course, the crisis of capitalist relations.

Typical (global) moments of this crisis were:

- Economic and financial forms of the capitalist economy, which divided world capital into warring, competing groups.
- Colonial policy of the imperialist powers.
- Rail policy.
- Conflicts of interests on world maritime routes.
- Local conflicts based on the international politics of individual states.
- The growth of armaments, first - as a consequence of the established international relations, and then - as one of the reasons that accelerated the war and excluded the possibility of a peaceful resolution of controversial issues.
- The work of diplomacy, which failed to cope with the task of eliminating the conflict and played a prominent role in its maturation.

Local reasons that played a role in the preparation of the World War include:

- Russian-Austrian strife over the Balkans.
- Russian-German strife, firstly, on the basis of economic relations between both states, and secondly, in matters of Middle Eastern policy.
- German-French strife based on the idea cherished in France of revenge for the war of 1871 and, in particular, the return of Alsace and Lorraine.
- Italo-Austrian strife over border areas.
- Finally, at the heart of everything, Anglo-German economic competition.

Through, on the one hand, agreements that already existed in the pre-war period, and on the other hand, agreements formed immediately before and during the war, the final groupings of powers were established.

[ecptr]

Central Powers:
Germany
Austria-Hungary
Ottoman Empire
Bulgaria (from 1915)

Allied Powers:
France
United Kingdom
Russia
Japan
Italy (from 1915)
United States
(from 1917)

[drb234]

They are infamously pervy, but if Japan is crazy, What is the US, then?

america is a really low bar to set but still japan is way worse

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragutin_Dimitrijevi%C4%87

That's not evidence. What would be the evidence that some scholars believe he initiated the plot to assassinate Franz Ferdinand?

[Scarface F]

That's not evidence. What would be the evidence that some scholars believe he initiated the plot to assassinate Franz Ferdinand?

No, you got me wrong. I said same circles organized assasination of crown Prince, not same person. What connects him and Gavrilo Princip is Black Hand, Serb ultranationalist organisation.

[Scarface F]

...

By the way, your ignorance is funny. Serbs in Austria-Hungary lived better than Serbs from Serbia (which is why both famous Serb inventors come from there and not Serbia proper), and Bosnia made progress from being medieval like in short term AH governance.

Man Serb terrorist killed, Franz Ferdinand, was among most Slavic-friendly people in Habsburg family and he planned to reorganize Monarchy in federal sense, giving desired autonomy to the Slavs.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Well the Japanese have managed to develop a remarkably successful economy and orderly society. However, they seem to have serious mental health issues and a catastrophically low birth rate.

They have this weird thing where if you don't get a job with a company right after university you fall through the cracks and because of the economic situation at different periods (I believe starting in the 2000s) you have portions of a generation that are underemployed.

There is also an issue where these companies expect you to work overtime even when there isn't any work to do. It's just a power move by the company on its employees and you have to think that hurts family relationships. Dad is never home because he has to sit in the office for a few extra hours doing nothing because... I don't know... the company wants to flex on them? I don't get it.

[Kess]

america is a really low bar to set.

Arguably lowest.


but still japan is way worse

Well, I disagree. At least, they don't have these kinds of streets and New Yorkers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fKjS_ojYRc&t=75s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLHNnOlwJSk

[CosmoLady]

Arguably lowest.

Well, I disagree. At least, they don't have these kinds of streets and New Yorkers.

Japan is amazing! :D They have similar mental health problems as any advanced Western country.

But with far less crime, drugs, filth, homelessness, visible mental illness/crises, and alcoholism than any Western country.

A much cleaner, safer, more orderly, more peaceful, and civilised society (not during WW2 though)

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

No, you got me wrong. I said same circles organized assasination of crown Prince, not same person. What connects him and Gavrilo Princip is Black Hand, Serb ultranationalist organisation.

When I say what nation is to blame I'm speaking of their governments since it's the behavior of governments that leads to conflict or resolutions. For example, if you claim the Serbian government had a role to play in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, or if you claim the Serbian government should be held responsible by not allowing the Austrian authorities on Serbian soil to conduct investigations and prosecutions (one of the points of Austria-Hungary's ultimatum that the Serbian government would not accept), then, while I would disagree, I could understand why you'd say Serbia.

However, if the assassination was not initiated by the Serbian government, then you can't blame the Serbian government. Perhaps I should have been more clear with my title: when I said 'nation' I mean that nation's government.

[Smeagol]

The European alliance system.

[Tooting Carmen]

The European alliance system.

I said so too. It was supposed to prevent war, but obviously the tensions boiled up too much.

[Andullero]

I said so too. It was supposed to prevent war, but obviously the tensions boiled up too much.

Metternich and Bismarck coming undone, to sum it up.

[Dušan]

By the way, your ignorance is funny. Serbs in Austria-Hungary lived better than Serbs from Serbia (which is why both famous Serb inventors come from there and not Serbia proper), and Bosnia made progress from being medieval like in short term AH governance.

Man Serb terrorist killed, Franz Ferdinand, was among most Slavic-friendly people in Habsburg family and he planned to reorganize Monarchy in federal sense, giving desired autonomy to the Slavs.


Progress was minimal.

Austria-Hungary didnt abolish Ottoman feudal system in Bosnia.
There were disenfranchised Christians serfs of Muslim landlords in Bosnia even in begening of 20th century!

Poor infrastructure (few railways) that was built to get easy to exploit Bosnian forests and coal.

Austria-Hungary didnt care about Bosnia - took it only to prevent right of self-determination of Bosnian Serbs and unification with Serbia.

And than later payed with Trianon agreement that create trauma to them even today.

[Scarface F]

Progress was minimal.

Austria-Hungary didnt abolish Ottoman feudal system in Bosnia.
There were disenfranchised Christians serfs of Muslim landlords in Bosnia even in begening of 20th century!

That should have been abolished.


Poor infrastructure (few railways) that was built to get easy to exploit Bosnian forests and coal.

There was progress in infrastructure and architecture however.


Austria-Hungary didnt care about Bosnia - took it only to prevent right of self-determination of Bosnian Serbs and unification with Serbia.
And than later payed with Trianon agreement that create trauma to them even today.

It's hypocrite to mention that since Serbia doesn't repsect self-determination of Kosovo Albanians who are over 90% in Kosovo, while in 1910 Bosnian Serbs made below 50% of Bosnian population.

[Dušan]

French Le Petit Journal


"About Serbian Day

Tribute from France to heroic Serbia"

https://i.imgur.com/FmICxzB.jpeg



"People of heroes

In Serbia, women, children, old people fight against the invader"

https://i.imgur.com/HOVYEV0.jpeg




"The bad brother

While his Serbian brother fights heroically against powerful enemies, the Bulgarian prepares to stab him in the back"

https://i.imgur.com/m8w02wE.jpeg





"The conflict between Austria and Serbia

Serbian population cheers the troops"

https://i.imgur.com/jYPjfjI.jpeg

[Dušan]

That should have been abolished.

It didnt happen, because A-H simply didnt care about economic and social situation in Bosnia.
Their main goal was to prevent unification of Bosnia with Serbia.



There was progress in infrastructure and architecture however.

Very low. Few buildings in Sarajevo for foreign colonizers and some railways to exploit forest and coal is not enough.

Bosnia had progress only after 1918. when Ottoman feudal system abolished and agrarian reform took it place.
Later with industrialisation in Tito Yugoslavia, Bosnia started to move forward, closer to Serbia and Croatia.



It's hypocrite to mention that since Serbia doesn't repsect self-determination of Kosovo Albanians who are over 90% in Kosovo, while in 1910 Bosnian Serbs made below 50% of Bosnian population.

Still were more numerous than Bosnian Muslims and Croats.

Kosovo Albanians nowadays clearly show to all of us their self-determination to move to western Europe.
https://albaniandailynews.com/news/28-of-kosovo-citizens-to-emigrate-in-first-months-of-2024-1-1

[Universe]

Very high suicide and depression rates.
Japanese suicide rate is not much different than western. Uruguay, USA, Belgium, Sweden and Finland have higher suicide rate than Japan. It is south Korea that has super high suicide rate.

[Blondie]

Man Serb terrorist killed, Franz Ferdinand, was among most Slavic-friendly people in Habsburg family and he planned to reorganize Monarchy in federal sense, giving desired autonomy to the Slavs.

Yes and at same time Franz Ferdinand hated hungarians as hell. In Wien, there were such rumors that the hungarian government was also behind Princip. Certainly, the hungarian elite was very happy when they have heard Franz Ferdinand is dead. On the other side, the austrian and czech elite became angry and they wanted the attack on Serbia. Ferdinand's wife was the czech noble lady, named Sophie Chotek, so czechs were hoping that the new emperror gives a semi-independent status for Czechia inside the Monarchy what hungarians had. The austrian parlament was pretty reformist, they did not like Franz Jozef's very conservative mindset. They also wanted Ferdinand for reformist reasons. Of course Franz Jozef did not want any reform, and basically he supported the hungarian narrative about ultra conservativism. In my opinion the hungarian elite had much bigger influence on the Emperror than austrian elite/parlament.

In the dualism the hungarian side was more agressive, for example they initiated the occupation of Bosnia because it was part of Hungary before ottomans, and they planned a "preventive" war towards Russia (before the 20. century) because they promoted panslavism. The austrian side prefered more peaceful foreign policy. This situation was completely changed in 1914, when austrians have started this war narrative and Hungary became peaceful. The hungarian elite, including Tisza did not want war with Serbia, because they also hated Franz Ferdinand, the hungarian economy expanded, the magyarization was partly successful among germans, jews and urban slovaks, romanians, so Hungary had no any reason to make war. Interesting that the transylvanian romanian elite was also against this anti-serbian war and they supported the hungarian government in this question although the romanian political influence on Emperror was almost zero.

So it was the very complex domestic political situation in the Habsburg Monarchy at 1914. The hungarian president Tisza has tried everything to to avoid war. He recommended political solution to solve this crisis, In the begining Franz Jozef supported this narrative instead of pro-war austrian narrative. The problem was inside the AH army the pro-war side was more stronger and the Feldmarschall named Conrad von Hötzendorf lobbied for it. Tisza was not optimistic, he knew in this war the Empire would confront with Russia too, and they AH troops cannot defeat Russia so Franz Jozef still hesitated. In my opinion Kaiser Wilhelm II convinced Franz Jozef to attack Serbia, he promised every support if Russia would enter in the war.

So in summary, Austria-Hungary did the first step, so you can blame the Habsburg Empire, but in larger context everyone wanted war. Russia wanted more influence on Balkans, AH wanted to punish Serbia, Serbia wanted to get Bosnia, Germany wanted a much bigger colonial empire, France wanted Elsaß Lothringen and revenge on germans, maybe only England had no reason to make war.

[robertb]

I'm really starting to feel for Serbs, they get blamed for anything wrong in the area. Rest of the Balkans diddo nuffin. lol

I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach we picked the wrong side and wish to apologize to the Serbs.

Ha Ha I also enjoy a thread about WW1 and someone has to bring something about America in WW2, they needed their minute of hate.