NW Caucasians on G25

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/hl7o6pqjU8A

https://youtu.be/8PDFxJmK5Lw

A thread dedicated to the genetics of NW Caucasians, viz., Circassians, Karachay-Balkar, and Ossetians.

[axlredneck]

https://i.ibb.co/GWxKc1N/IMG-20240202-194116.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/PNZsKng/IMG-20240202-164153.jpg

[axlredneck]

NW_Caucasus_110,0.1084511,0.083867,-0.0243089,-0.0174258,-0.0327368,-0.0002119,0.0085451,-0.0021975,-0.0498206,-0.0238456,-0.002759,0.0073173,-0.0167439,0.0027128,0.0038036,-0.0164008,0.0059187,-0.0039924,-0.0086634,0.0150969,0.0060003,0.0009019,0.0006156,-0.0069743,-0.0016455
Caucasus,0.110539843,0.132867129,-0.059556371,-0.047613071,-0.041323429,-0.0066816,0.011525271,-0.004292057,-0.065215286,-0.023498343,-0.000344343,0.013344043,-0.0280899,0.006290686,0.003656757,-0.024930343,0.0098716,-0.0058382,-0.012129057,0.019805929,0.012982657,0.0015825,-0.000429714,-0.009555429,-0.002437857
Turkic,0.086996749,-0.110358451,0.052675949,0.050812949,-0.038675798,0.011733201,-0.003556148,-0.00291565,-0.018433399,-0.025959499,-0.0109894,-0.00489905,0.0046911,-0.019558551,0.012520401,0.0065306,-0.007779099,-2.96995E-05,-0.0026687,0.004882399,-0.013352949,0.001972449,0.001849399,0.002141601,-0.0001394
Slavic,0.1367386,0.129317,0.0684537,0.0574076,0.03 92476,0.0211858,0.0118864,0.0139007,-0.0048322,-0.0220486,-0.0032008,-0.0104372,0.0198081,0.0222103,-0.0126021,-0.0025568,0.005644,0.0010028,0.0036068,0.0025627,-0.0041697,-0.0060034,0.0054652,-0.0071382,0.0008888
https://i.ibb.co/gD78hPG/IMG-20240217-140905.png

[axlredneck]

https://avatars.dzeninfra.ru/get-zen_doc/5318099/pub_63c8530e5331eb6e48e126d7_63c85f4381a6524951ba3 42c/scale_2400


Genetically, the Adyghe have shared ancestry partially with neighboring peoples of the Caucasus, with some influence from other regions. The most prevalent SNP haplotypes among all Circassian tribes is G2-YY1215 (43%); others are R1a-M198* (13%), G2-YY9632 (9%), J2-M172* (7%), sharing a single common ancestor 3,000 years ago, with the largest demographic growth between 2,000 and 1,500 years ago. Prevalence of the G2-YY1215 haplogroup is larger on the Western Caucasus and decreases to the east, while G2-YY9632 has the opposite tendency. R1a-M198* is shared with Balkars, Karachays and Kuban Cossacks.

A quarter of the Circassian R1a is from Slavic people.

[Demirkazık]

I believe that a significant portion of their Turkic ancestry comes from Oghuric groups that resided in North Caucasus for some time. If you're available, could you also make one for Kabardians and Abazins ?

[axlredneck]

Karachay-Balkar Y-DNA (n=1075)

C 0.85%
E 1.2%
H 0.28%
G2 33.1%
I2 3.8%
J1 2.9%
J2 13%
L 0.18%
T 0.65%
N 0.18%
Q 3.75%
R-Z93 29.4%
R-Z283 1.76%
R1b 8.95%

Ossetian Y-DNA (n=800)

C 0.125%
E 1.5%
G2 70%
I2 0.25%
J1 2%
J2 15.125%
L 0.5%
N 0.25%
Q 2%
R1a 0.75%
R1b 7.375%
T 0.375%

[axlredneck]

I believe that a significant portion of their Turkic ancestry comes from Oghuric groups that resided in North Caucasus for some time. If you're available, could you also make one for Kabardians and Abazins ?

They're included in the average.

[axlredneck]

Circassian Y-lines from Karachay-Balkars
• https://yfull.com/tree/C-Z22425/
• https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY114993/
• https://yfull.com/tree/N-PH1896/
• https://yfull.com/tree/Q-L330/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y38987/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y52/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5937/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP451/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y91288/

Circassian Y-lines from Bulgars / Volga Tatars
• https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y136265/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y38802/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y20770/

Circassian Y-lines from Nogais
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-FT143389/

Circassian Y-lines of uncertain origin
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY60213/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y40719/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y196863/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/

Karachay-Balkar specific (not found in other NW Caucasians)
• https://yfull.com/tree/C-BY81954/
• https://yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ663/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY149647/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-FT359082/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-FT353771/
• https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y210282/

[axlredneck]

I believe that a significant portion of their Turkic ancestry comes from Oghuric groups that resided in North Caucasus for some time. If you're available, could you also make one for Kabardians and Abazins ?

Which leads to another conclusion that the ancestors of Karachay-Balkars who were responsible for the spread of Turkic ancestry in NW Caucasians were originally Oghuric groups and not Kipchaks. The Oghuric group most likely were Sabirs.

[Demirkazık]

Which leads to another conclusion that Karachay-Balkars were originally Oghuric groups and not Kipchaks. The Oghuric groups most likely were Sabirs.

They probably switched to a Kipchak language due to cultural and political influences. Since there are few Karachays with this clade, I believe R-Y111732 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y20750/) is either a Kipchak clade or an Oghuric clade, though I favor the Kipchak origin of that clade since it falls under R-M478, which probably descends from the Tiele confederation. If I'm not mistaken, the Kipchak tribe of Middle Zhuz also carries variants of R-M478.
Even though I don't have much knowledge about Karachay-Balkar R-Z2125's, from what I've heard, they had the most variations. It's probably a sign of their Oghuric ancestry.

[Leto]

Quite low Steppe percentage

Target: NW_Caucasus_110
Distance: 2.4332% / 0.02433186
66.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
17.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 TUR_Barcin_N
4.6 Han
3.0 Nganassan
2.4 WHG

[Leto]

Karachay-Balkar Y-DNA (n=1075)

C 0.85%
E 1.2%
H 0.28%
G2 33.1%
I2 3.8%
J1 2.9%
J2 13%
L 0.18%
T 0.65%
N 0.18%
Q 3.75%
R-Z93 29.4%
R-Z283 1.76%
R1b 8.95%

Ossetian Y-DNA (n=800)

C 0.125%
E 1.5%
G2 70%
I2 0.25%
J1 2%
J2 15.125%
L 0.5%
N 0.25%
Q 2%
R1a 0.75%
R1b 7.375%
T 0.375%
Basically 85% of the former are G2, R1a, J2 and R1b. With the Ossetians it's even simpler - 85% are G2 and J2.

[Kess]

Target: kesseras_simulated_g25_scaled
Distance: 2.9299% / 0.02929934
45.0 Caucasus
33.4 NW_Caucasus_110
12.4 Slavic
9.2 Turkic

[axlredneck]

Basically 85% of the former are G2, R1a, J2 and R1b. With the Ossetians it's even simpler - 85% are G2 and J2.

50% of Ossetian men fall under this clade: G-GG330 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-GG330/). They're descendants of Os-Bagatar I (https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81-%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80_I).

[axlredneck]

Target: kesseras_simulated_g25_scaled
Distance: 2.9299% / 0.02929934
45.0 Caucasus
33.4 NW_Caucasus_110
12.4 Slavic
9.2 Turkic

Exclude NW Caucasus 110, and then post your result.

[axlredneck]

They probably switched to a Kipchak language due to cultural and political influences. Since there are few Karachays with this clade, I believe R-Y111732 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y20750/) is either a Kipchak clade or an Oghuric clade, though I favor the Kipchak origin of that clade since it falls under R-M478, which probably descends from the Tiele confederation. If I'm not mistaken, the Kipchak tribe of Middle Zhuz also carries variants of R-M478.
Even though I don't have much knowledge about Karachay-Balkar R-Z2125's, from what I've heard, they had the most variations. It's probably a sign of their Oghuric ancestry.

https://i.ibb.co/9NXddK9/IMG-20240217-214022.jpg

R-Y14051, instead of R-Y111732, looks more like a Kipchak clade.

https://i.ibb.co/JtxVNpZ/IMG-20240217-214458.jpg
A Sarmatian buried in Samsun, Turkey.

[mashail]

Target: Me
Distance: 19.5066% / 0.19506558
77.8 Caucasus
12.0 Slavic
10.2 NW_Caucasus_110

Target: Mama
Distance: 19.0872% / 0.19087197
73.8 Caucasus
17.0 NW_Caucasus_110
9.2 Slavic

[Demirkazık]

R-Y14051, instead of R-Y111732, looks more like a Kipchak clade.

R-Y14051 was also found in DA87, a Kimak sample. Mahmud al-Kashgari remarked that Kara-Khanids like him considered Yamāk (Kimak?) to be "a tribe of the Kipchaks", though contemporary Kipchaks considered themselves a different group; maybe they weren't much different paternally. I think we can both agree that the clade of R-Y14051 is ultimately from the Tiele.
If not Kipchak, I still believe that R-Y20750 and its descendants to be Turkic markers related to the Tiele confederacy. Another insight is that DA87 might have been a Kipchak mislabeled as a Kimak; who knows.

[axlredneck]

R-Y14051 was also found in DA87, a Kimak sample. Mahmud al-Kashgari remarked that Kara-Khanids like him considered Yamāk (Kimak?) to be "a tribe of the Kipchaks", though contemporary Kipchaks considered themselves a different group; maybe they weren't much different paternally. I think we can both agree that the clade of R-Y14051 is ultimately from the Tiele.
If not Kipchak, I still believe that R-Y20750 and its descendants to be Turkic markers related to the Tiele confederacy. Another insight is that DA87 might have been a Kipchak mislabeled as a Kimak; who knows.

Medieval nomads were very mixed. I do agree with your views on DA87.

[axlredneck]

Target: Me
Distance: 19.5066% / 0.19506558
77.8 Caucasus
12.0 Slavic
10.2 NW_Caucasus_110

Target: Mama
Distance: 19.0872% / 0.19087197
73.8 Caucasus
17.0 NW_Caucasus_110
9.2 Slavic

What's your ethnicity?

[axlredneck]

https://i.ibb.co/bXgHb78/IMG-20240218-163246.jpg

[Demirkazık]

https://i.ibb.co/bXgHb78/IMG-20240218-163246.jpg

The impact of the Turkic migrations is often overlooked. These migrations weren't isolated events but rather a continuous phenomenon spanning centuries, as it can be seen by the percentages. What baffles me is that, except for Ossetians and Adyge, the rest are very similar to each other. Do you think a language shift happened between some North Caucasian groups, and as a result, their cultural identity and language shifted ? What I wish from academia is further research and analysis regarding Caucasian and Turkic groups.

[Leto]

The impact of the Turkic migrations is often overlooked. These migrations weren't isolated events but rather a continuous phenomenon spanning centuries, as it can be seen by the percentages. What baffles me is that, except for Ossetians and Adyge, the rest are very similar to each other. Do you think a language shift happened between some North Caucasian groups, and as a result, their cultural identity and language shifted ? What I wish from academia is further research and analysis regarding Caucasian and Turkic groups.
Obviously the Turkic and Ossetian speakers in the Caucasus are assimilated for the most part. Elite domination.

[axlredneck]

What baffles me is that, except for Ossetians and Adyge, the rest are very similar to each other. Do you think a language shift happened between some North Caucasian groups, and as a result, their cultural identity and language shifted ? What I wish from academia is further research and analysis regarding Caucasian and Turkic groups.

If you're implying that Karachay-Balkars are mostly language-shifted Cherkes/Kabardin/Abazins, then no! they're not. When we look at the Y-DNA, we see that the overwhelming majority of their native Caucasus Y-lineages are from Svans and fall under G-Z6653, not G-Y12277, which dominates the speakers of Circassian/NW Caucasian languages. G2 accounts for 33% of the Y-DNA of Karachay-Balkars, and only 7% of 33% (~2.3% of the total) is under G-Y12277.

The similarity in autosomal DNA can come from the assimilation of females. They're all Muslims, so intermarriage is something that can account for it. I haven't seen the results of Digor Ossetians, but I expect them to bridge the gap between Iron Ossetians and other NW Caucasians. Digors are Muslim and account for 25% of all Ossetians.

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/hl7o6pqjU8A

Ossetian diaspora in Turkey, the overwhelming majority of whom are Digors.

[Feiichy]

No Schyntian-Sarmatian admix there? I find it hard to believe.

[Demirkazık]

If you're implying that Karachay-Balkars are mostly language-shifted Cherkes/Kabardin/Abazins, then no! they're not. When we look at the Y-DNA, we see that the overwhelming majority of their native Caucasus Y-lineages are from Svans and fall under G-Z6653, not G-Y12277, which dominates the speakers of Circassian/NW Caucasian languages. G2 accounts for 33% of the Y-DNA of Karachay-Balkars, and only 7% of 33% (~2.3% of the total) is under G-Y12277.

The similarity in autosomal DNA can come from the assimilation of females. They're all Muslims, so intermarriage is something that can account for it. I haven't seen the results of Digor Ossetians, but I expect them to bridge the gap between Iron Ossetians and other NW Caucasians. Digors are Muslim and account for 25% of all Ossetians.

No, I was referring to the exact opposite of the situation, whether Circassian tribes absorbed Turkic people into their ethnogenesis. Intermixing between Caucasians and Turkics is not widely known. If I'm not mistaken, there are significant Turkic-like elements present in Kabardians, which is what made me ponder about it. Additionally, G-Y12277 was also found in Medieval Ploiești. Autosomally, the sample appears somewhat different from the rest of the Turkics at its age; perhaps that individual was a Khazar, Black Magyar mix with a North West Caucasian paternal.


Romania_Ploiești_MA:I10495,0.0774,-0.179749,0.071653,0.028101,-0.056934,-0.009482,0.013866,0.01823,-0.009408,-0.013121,-0.005034,-0.001049,-0.003865,-0.019818,-0.004072,-0.005967,-0.006258,0.00076,0.00817,0.005753,-0.018592,0.009521,-0.005546,-0.001687,0.000838

[Leto]

The similarity in autosomal DNA can come from the assimilation of females. They're all Muslims, so intermarriage is something that can account for it. I haven't seen the results of Digor Ossetians, but I expect them to bridge the gap between Iron Ossetians and other NW Caucasians. Digors are Muslim and account for 25% of all Ossetians.
North Ossetia-Alania is less than 10 percent Muslim and many of them are not Ossetians (Kumyks & others). South Ossetia (legally part of Georgia) is even less.

[axlredneck]

North Ossetia-Alania is less than 10 percent Muslim and many of them are not Ossetians (Kumyks & others). South Ossetia (legally part of Georgia) is even less.

A hundred thousand in Russia and a hundred thousand in Turkey are Digors.

[axlredneck]

No, I was referring to the exact opposite of the situation, whether Circassian tribes absorbed Turkic people into their ethnogenesis. Intermixing between Caucasians and Turkics is not widely known. If I'm not mistaken, there are significant Turkic-like elements present in Kabardians, which is what made me ponder about it. Additionally, G-Y12277 was also found in Medieval Ploiești. Autosomally, the sample appears somewhat different from the rest of the Turkics at its age; perhaps that individual was a Khazar, Black Magyar mix with a North West Caucasian paternal.


Romania_Ploiești_MA:I10495,0.0774,-0.179749,0.071653,0.028101,-0.056934,-0.009482,0.013866,0.01823,-0.009408,-0.013121,-0.005034,-0.001049,-0.003865,-0.019818,-0.004072,-0.005967,-0.006258,0.00076,0.00817,0.005753,-0.018592,0.009521,-0.005546,-0.001687,0.000838

Ofcourse, Circassians have assimilated Turkic people.

I don't think that guy is a Khazar or a Magyar. He is most likely a Pecheneg.

[Demirkazık]

Ofcourse, Circassians have assimilated Turkic people.

I don't think that guy is a Khazar or a Magyar. He is most likely a Pecheneg.

That's what I thought about it at first too, but I can't explain neither his Y-DNA or mtDNA if he were a Pecheneg.


RUS_Vladimir:SHK001,0.073985,-0.182795,0.062979,0.014858,-0.04924,-0.018686,0.001645,0.00923,-0.012271,-0.006378,-0.013803,-0.002847,0.003717,-0.015138,0.002307,-0.006895,-0.009909,0.0019,0.01257,0.009379,-0.022959,0.001978,-0.00493,-0.006989,-0.002395
RUS_Vladimir:SHK002,0.066017,-0.174671,0.042615,-0.000646,-0.038469,-0.003347,0.007755,0.014769,-0.009613,-0.008383,-0.021922,-0.001499,-0.000297,-0.004817,0.002986,0.011403,-0.00326,0.003294,0.010936,0.012006,-0.018467,-0.003586,-0.016885,0.002048,-0.000599

These two guys are probably Chorni Klobuky, which means they are of Oghuz descent. One of them is N-VL77 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL77/), and the other one is J-PH1795 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1795/), which are found abundantly in Anatolian Turks. Historically, Pechenegs were also Oghuz. Considering that the Ploiești sample isn't exactly like them, it made me think that maybe he wasn't a Pecheneg.

[axlredneck]

That's what I thought about it at first too, but I can't explain neither his Y-DNA or mtDNA if he were a Pecheneg.


RUS_Vladimir:SHK001,0.073985,-0.182795,0.062979,0.014858,-0.04924,-0.018686,0.001645,0.00923,-0.012271,-0.006378,-0.013803,-0.002847,0.003717,-0.015138,0.002307,-0.006895,-0.009909,0.0019,0.01257,0.009379,-0.022959,0.001978,-0.00493,-0.006989,-0.002395
RUS_Vladimir:SHK002,0.066017,-0.174671,0.042615,-0.000646,-0.038469,-0.003347,0.007755,0.014769,-0.009613,-0.008383,-0.021922,-0.001499,-0.000297,-0.004817,0.002986,0.011403,-0.00326,0.003294,0.010936,0.012006,-0.018467,-0.003586,-0.016885,0.002048,-0.000599

These two guys are probably Chorni Klobuky, which means they are of Oghuz descent. One of them is N-VL77 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL77/), and the other one is J-PH1795 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1795/), which are found abundantly in Anatolian Turks. Historically, Pechenegs were also Oghuz. Considering that the Ploiești sample isn't exactly like them, it made me think that maybe he wasn't a Pecheneg.

I can't explain his Y-DNA either, but he doesn't have any Caucasus ancestry, even in tiny amounts.

[Leto]

If you're implying that Karachay-Balkars are mostly language-shifted Cherkes/Kabardin/Abazins, then no! they're not. When we look at the Y-DNA, we see that the overwhelming majority of their native Caucasus Y-lineages are from Svans and fall under G-Z6653, not G-Y12277, which dominates the speakers of Circassian/NW Caucasian languages. G2 accounts for 33% of the Y-DNA of Karachay-Balkars, and only 7% of 33% (~2.3% of the total) is under G-Y12277.

The similarity in autosomal DNA can come from the assimilation of females. They're all Muslims, so intermarriage is something that can account for it. I haven't seen the results of Digor Ossetians, but I expect them to bridge the gap between Iron Ossetians and other NW Caucasians. Digors are Muslim and account for 25% of all Ossetians.
They definitely do not look like assimilated Svans. On the other hand, Abkhaz people are most likely assimilated Svans.

[axlredneck]

They definitely do not look like assimilated Svans. On the other hand, Abkhaz people are most likely assimilated Svans.

Did you forget to read the part where I discussed their autosomal DNA?

Also, https://i.ibb.co/MGY72sg/IMG-20240219-120748.jpg

[celticdragongod]

NW_Caucasus_110,0.1084511,0.083867,-0.0243089,-0.0174258,-0.0327368,-0.0002119,0.0085451,-0.0021975,-0.0498206,-0.0238456,-0.002759,0.0073173,-0.0167439,0.0027128,0.0038036,-0.0164008,0.0059187,-0.0039924,-0.0086634,0.0150969,0.0060003,0.0009019,0.0006156,-0.0069743,-0.0016455
Caucasus,0.110539843,0.132867129,-0.059556371,-0.047613071,-0.041323429,-0.0066816,0.011525271,-0.004292057,-0.065215286,-0.023498343,-0.000344343,0.013344043,-0.0280899,0.006290686,0.003656757,-0.024930343,0.0098716,-0.0058382,-0.012129057,0.019805929,0.012982657,0.0015825,-0.000429714,-0.009555429,-0.002437857
Turkic,0.086996749,-0.110358451,0.052675949,0.050812949,-0.038675798,0.011733201,-0.003556148,-0.00291565,-0.018433399,-0.025959499,-0.0109894,-0.00489905,0.0046911,-0.019558551,0.012520401,0.0065306,-0.007779099,-2.96995E-05,-0.0026687,0.004882399,-0.013352949,0.001972449,0.001849399,0.002141601,-0.0001394
Slavic,0.1367386,0.129317,0.0684537,0.0574076,0.03 92476,0.0211858,0.0118864,0.0139007,-0.0048322,-0.0220486,-0.0032008,-0.0104372,0.0198081,0.0222103,-0.0126021,-0.0025568,0.005644,0.0010028,0.0036068,0.0025627,-0.0041697,-0.0060034,0.0054652,-0.0071382,0.0008888
https://i.ibb.co/gD78hPG/IMG-20240217-140905.png

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.07422723 Slavic
0.16377835 NW_Caucasus_110
0.20364149 Caucasus
0.26722553 Turkic

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 7.1442% / 0.07144248
88.8 Slavic
7.6 NW_Caucasus_110
3.6 Caucasus

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/aLj1bzVUeR4
Balkars

[axlredneck]

Medieval inhabitants of Anapa/Gorgippia (n=3)
https://i.ibb.co/5YxxppQ/IMG-20240308-155803.jpg

[tk'es]

Distance to: tk'es_scaled
0.04199572 NW_Caucasus_110
0.07773085 Caucasus
0.16523462 Slavic
0.24333461 Turkic


Target: tk'es_scaled
Distance: 3.9700% / 0.03970002
47.8 Caucasus
31.4 NW_Caucasus_110
12.2 Slavic
8.6 Turkic


Target: tk'es_scaled
Distance: 3.9700% / 0.03970023 | ADC: 0.25x RC
74.6 NW_Caucasus_110
17.6 Caucasus
7.8 Slavic

[axlredneck]

R-YP451, a prominent Karachay-Balkar Y-lineage, has a Sarmatian origin.
https://i.ibb.co/6XcSDrj/IMG-20240516-184636.jpg

[axlredneck]

R-Y91288, another Karachay-Balkar Y-lineage, has a Sarmatian but originally is of Saka origin.
https://i.ibb.co/JtxVNpZ/IMG-20240217-214458.jpg

[axlredneck]

Unlike other people in Caucasus that claim a Steppe origin (from Sarmatians, Alans and other cultures), Karachay-Balkars and Kumyks descend from these Steppe people (Inc. Bulgars) and have the most diverse Steppe Y-lines.

[axlredneck]

1) Z282 > .... > Y12463

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y12463/

European subclade, general among Slavic peoples. Only one clan Motta belongs to this subclade.

2) Z282 > ... > YP569

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP569/

Other European subclade. And again - only one clan Efendi belongs to it.

3) Z282 > PF6155 > M458

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

Some unidentified subclade inside the M458 SNP. We have three Balkar clans here (Ehçi, Tawmurza, Boza) and possibly also three Karachay clans (Gedi, Haparuq, Qoyçu).

4) Z93*

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

Some unidentified subclades, but definitely belongs to Z93. It's such Karachay clans as Batça (atawul Suyqun), Dotda, Cukka, Ahtaw, Çoçu, Böden, Glow, Qorqmaz and also Balkar clans Geriy, Beçel and Özden.

5) Z93 > Z94*

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z94/

Only one clan Haci belongs to unidentified subclade of Z94 (he have also negative results for Z2122 and Z2123 SNPs).

6) Z93 > ... > Z2125*

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2125/

Three Balkar clans (Žanatay, Guppo, Qožaq) belongs to some unidentified subclade of Z2125.

7) Z93 > ... > Z2122 > ... > Y52

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y52/

This is the second most common subclade among Karachay-Balkars (such clans as Gerbek, Sılpağar, Tübey, Sarıbaş, Şaman, Haci, Gemu, Şungar, Hubiy, Qara). Also there is big diversity inside of this subclade among Karachay-Balkars.

8) Z93 > ... > Z2122 > ... > F1019

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/

Second big subclade of Z2122 also presented among Karachay-Balkars (such clans as Hatua, Möçü, Malqar, Cabel, Bayramuq).

9) Z93 > ... > Z2123 > Y934 > YP451

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP451/

Most common subclade among Karachay-Balkars (~ 60-70% of all R1a). It is also considered to be the best ethnic identity of Karachays and Balkars. Time to the earliest common ancestor – 2200 years. This is also the subclade all the R1a princely clans belongs to.

10) Z93 > ... > Z2123 > Y934 > BY30762

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y178665/

Second subclade inside of Y934 SNP among Karachay-Balkars. Here we have four Balkar clans (Moqa, Qubadiy, Akkiy, Met).

11) Z93 > ... > Z2123 > Y934 > Y7094

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT353771/

Third subclade inside of Y934. We have here such Balkar clans as Buday, Gayı, Gilâh. Time to the earliest common ancestor inside of Karachay-Balkars - 2600 years.

12) Z93 > ... > Z2123 > Y934 > Y15121

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT359082/

Fourth subclade inside of Y934. Four Balkar clans belong to it (Kiştik, Zabaq, Qužon, Gažon).

13) Z93 > ... > Z2123 > Y934 > YP6420

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6420/

Fifths subclade inside of Y934. Only one Karachay clan Caba belongs to it.

14) Z93 > ... > Z2123 > Y934*

link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y934/

Some unsupported sixth subclade of Y934, where four Balkar clans belong (Gerĝoq, Mahıy, Çoçay, Tışhan).

___________

People asking, so I tried to explain about R1a subclades among Karachay-Balkars. It's actually very big diversity for people with such little population (~ 300 000). Moreover, subclades mostly don't have connections with other peoples in millenniums. It can only means big and rich [steppe] history in past.

(Originally posted by Samuel Guta on Facebook)

[axlredneck]

Medieval Circassians on G25 (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?385321-Medieval-Circassians-on-G25)

[axlredneck]

A half Abazin half Iron Ossetian....
https://i.ibb.co/ggzLyyS/IMG-20240624-195949.jpg

[axlredneck]

It's weird how Ossetians, despite their Iranian language, completely lack uniparentals relating to the Steppe or even Slavic people when all their neighbors have them in significant numbers.

And comments like these.... WOW!
G2a ain't Indo-European, though.
https://i.ibb.co/4pxKj4w/IMG-20240628-204314.jpg

[axlredneck]

A Jordanian Circassian
https://i.ibb.co/72B4102/IMG-20240630-175754.jpg

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/18ubZwo0Aok

A Digor Ossetian from Turkey.

[interes]

https://youtu.be/18ubZwo0Aok

A Digor Ossetian from Turkey.
Ossetians look like much more iranians than west georgians imeretins from kutaisi circassians look like more tyrks than imeretins to me

[axlredneck]

A new Circassian in the clade with a Volga Tatar and an Assyrian.
https://i.ibb.co/cb5YVFZ/IMG-20240701-143547.jpg