Romanichals results

[Flashball]

Romanichals (UK: /ˈrɒmənɪtʃæl/ US: /-ni-/; more commonly known as English Gypsies) are a Romani subgroup within the United Kingdom and other parts of the English-speaking world. Most Romanichal speak Angloromani, a mixed language that blends Romani vocabulary with English syntax. Romanichals resident in England, Scotland, and Wales are part of the Gypsy, Roma, and Traveller community.

Results:
(slightly modified version of this model > https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1008417.g002)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqbE4VXIAAKt4g?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqbRBmXQAAFEQu?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqbjh0XAAA1Gjs?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqb8rLXIAAoNsk?format=jpg&name=large

Pictures of Romanichals:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqchenWsAAHGiy?format=png&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqcp8RW0AAQCeF?format=png&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqc9vVWMAAzq5w?format=jpg&name=360x360
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGqde3qWkAAcSVl?format=jpg&name=medium


Model
https://pastebin.com/rjRcBW8e

Roma samples (and romanichals)::
https://pastebin.com/h9hy66cP

[Flashball]

Target: Roma_England
Distance: 3.0215% / 0.03021488
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.8 TUR_Barcin_N
10.0 WHG
5.2 Iran_Neolithic
0.4 AsianProxy

Target: Romanichel4(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 2.8096% / 0.02809579
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.8 TUR_Barcin_N
8.8 WHG
3.4 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 North_Africa_Prehistoric
0.4 AsianProxy

Target: Romanichel3(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 2.4423% / 0.02442325
55.8 TUR_Barcin_N
29.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.0 WHG
3.4 North_Africa_Prehistoric
0.6 Iran_Neolithic

Target: Romanichel2(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 3.0692% / 0.03069187
47.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
38.4 TUR_Barcin_N
9.4 WHG
3.0 Iran_Neolithic
1.8 AsianProxy

Target: Romanichel1(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 4.0682% / 0.04068221
45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.0 WHG

Target: Romanichel1(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 4.0682% / 0.04068221
45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.0 WHG


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Target: Roma_England
Distance: 3.0513% / 0.03051257
46.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.6 TUR_Barcin_N
10.0 WHG
5.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.4 Han

Target: Romanichel4(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 2.8495% / 0.02849547
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.6 TUR_Barcin_N
8.8 WHG
3.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.6 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Han

Target: Romanichel3(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 2.5114% / 0.02511369
51.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 WHG
5.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
3.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Target: Romanichel2(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 3.0816% / 0.03081627
47.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
9.4 WHG
3.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
1.8 Han
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Romanichel1(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 4.1021% / 0.04102105
45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.0 WHG

------------------------------------------------

Target: Roma_England
Distance: 5.5090% / 0.05508963
44.4 Anatolia_Pinarbasi
28.6 EasternHunterGatherer
14.2 CaucasusHunterGatherer
7.4 Iran_Neolithic
5.4 WHG

Target: Romanichel4(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 5.3513% / 0.05351299
44.6 Anatolia_Pinarbasi
29.8 EasternHunterGatherer
12.8 CaucasusHunterGatherer
8.2 Iran_Neolithic
4.6 WHG

Target: Romanichel3(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 4.4344% / 0.04434356
58.6 Anatolia_Pinarbasi
15.0 EasternHunterGatherer
10.2 CaucasusHunterGatherer
7.4 WHG
4.6 Iran_Neolithic
3.2 Levant_Natufian
1.0 North_Africa_Prehistoric

Target: Romanichel2(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 5.3732% / 0.05373157
46.2 Anatolia_Pinarbasi
30.6 EasternHunterGatherer
13.4 CaucasusHunterGatherer
6.0 Iran_Neolithic
3.8 WHG

Target: Romanichel1(AngloSaxongypsiesEngland)
Distance: 6.7204% / 0.06720351
48.2 Anatolia_Pinarbasi
27.2 EasternHunterGatherer
15.2 CaucasusHunterGatherer
9.2 WHG
0.2 Iran_Neolithic

[Petalpusher]

My grandma used alternatively Bohemiens and Romanichels but i don't know on what critera it was really based on. Anyway that also shows again how terribly bad the standard Barcin/Yamnaya/WHG model is, for these samples it barely gives them some Iran_neo while most are legitimately part south Asians. You would think "Romanichel4" is very NWestern, when in reality it's at least 1/4 Roma with moderns.

The range is about 1/5 to 1/3 it seems overall.
https://storage.googleapis.com/plos-corpus-prod/10.1371/journal.pgen.1008417/2/pgen.1008417.g002.PNG_L?X-Goog-Algorithm=GOOG4-RSA-SHA256&X-Goog-Credential=wombat-sa%40plos-prod.iam.gserviceaccount.com%2F20240220%2Fauto%2Fs torage%2Fgoog4_request&X-Goog-Date=20240220T072554Z&X-Goog-Expires=86400&X-Goog-SignedHeaders=host&X-Goog-Signature=19e1769755ef558856d450ab3dc8dbe70a793274 03c98a3f4c02c19148ef8e2de27a2a74426444d40b54e485d7 ad31cba724635df744f2509232b9400e86be7415c146ff0a5a 3b666677c26d196d0ad4140ca78d6b48eff7ec02a722f8344d 2ec3726ed80432a1513dd0702884d78dc2eeae558924eb9a00 607ac7f27b7a0e1e9d3cab21edebe1bd41598e5608957bb101 126a95cb99ae7edea3e1dbddd5c671350d65709e4c9e4e869f ec86d7faf36050c82897c6c171356867815824ff4bce71a138 01009d3805ba643881f09a11c32502c14e2eaea41e95049d75 ef57de573facac4f74e337f548d4eec1e933aa61fffea6fdc5 26be4ec9082b83a647e406

[Flashball]

My grandma used alternatively Bohemiens and Romanichels but i don't know on what critera it was really based on. Anyway that also shows again how terribly bad the standard Barcin/Yamnaya/WHG model is, for these samples it barely gives them some Iran_neo while most are legitimately part south Asians. You would think "Romanichel4" is very NWestern, when in reality it's at least 1/4 Roma with moderns.

The range is about 1/5 to 1/3 it seems overall.
https://storage.googleapis.com/plos-corpus-prod/10.1371/journal.pgen.1008417/2/pgen.1008417.g002.PNG_L?X-Goog-Algorithm=GOOG4-RSA-SHA256&X-Goog-Credential=wombat-sa%40plos-prod.iam.gserviceaccount.com%2F20240220%2Fauto%2Fs torage%2Fgoog4_request&X-Goog-Date=20240220T072554Z&X-Goog-Expires=86400&X-Goog-SignedHeaders=host&X-Goog-Signature=19e1769755ef558856d450ab3dc8dbe70a793274 03c98a3f4c02c19148ef8e2de27a2a74426444d40b54e485d7 ad31cba724635df744f2509232b9400e86be7415c146ff0a5a 3b666677c26d196d0ad4140ca78d6b48eff7ec02a722f8344d 2ec3726ed80432a1513dd0702884d78dc2eeae558924eb9a00 607ac7f27b7a0e1e9d3cab21edebe1bd41598e5608957bb101 126a95cb99ae7edea3e1dbddd5c671350d65709e4c9e4e869f ec86d7faf36050c82897c6c171356867815824ff4bce71a138 01009d3805ba643881f09a11c32502c14e2eaea41e95049d75 ef57de573facac4f74e337f548d4eec1e933aa61fffea6fdc5 26be4ec9082b83a647e406

L'apport Roma contient des tas apports européens à divers degrés (le "roma finlandais" a des apports du nord ouest par exemple, d'autres ont plus d'apport balkan comprenant un apport "slave" aussi), donc forcément l'apport strictement "non euro" est réduit si on passe par le model traditionnel "barcin + steppe + whg + iranien néolithique + AASI", mais si on tente de les modéliser avec des échantillons plus récents, on obtient comme 10-50% roma (la plupart ont cependant entre 10 et 30 % de roma avec un seul atteignant 50% de roma)

Les deux models ne sont pas contradictoires, mais le model de l'étude (et "mon" model rectifié -j'ai ajouté des échantillons anglais, irlandais, écossais et autres) montre juste les apports plus récents, donc c'est probablement plus réaliste pour se faire une idée des mélanges récents et situer l'apport roma et l'apport non roma.

[Mortimer]

Interesting, eventhough i do not really understand much of those self-created calculators and models, i think many can create calculators how they want? I dont understand much, but i think they are of roma origin/indian origin ultimately, they arrived 500 years ago to Britain, old pictures show them as "dark skinned" nowadays they are whitened, and "black face gypsies are rare"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245032/Gypsies-settled-Europe-1-500-years-ago-didnt-arrive-UK-centuries-ago.html

[Leto]

My grandma used alternatively Bohemiens and Romanichels but i don't know on what critera it was really based on. Anyway that also shows again how terribly bad the standard Barcin/Yamnaya/WHG model is, for these samples it barely gives them some Iran_neo while most are legitimately part south Asians. You would think "Romanichel4" is very NWestern, when in reality it's at least 1/4 Roma with moderns.

The range is about 1/5 to 1/3 it seems overall.

Do you mean 1/5 to 1/3 Balkan Roma? The thing is that the Balkan Roma are mixed too, only about 35% South Asian on average. So a quarter of that would be like 8% SA. At that level the person is basically white for all intents and purposes.

[Flashball]

Interesting, eventhough i do not really understand much of those self-created calculators and models, i think many can create calculators how they want? I dont understand much, but i think they are of roma origin/indian origin ultimately, they arrived 500 years ago to Britain, old pictures show them as "dark skinned" nowadays they are whitened, and "black face gypsies are rare"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245032/Gypsies-settled-Europe-1-500-years-ago-didnt-arrive-UK-centuries-ago.html

When discussing the Gypsies of England, it is important to differentiate between groups. We are referring here to the Romanichals, not to the more recent groups of Gypsies from Romania and Spain.

Regarding their phenotypes: the photos I shared are old, not recent, and almost all of them already had "Western European" characteristics with "tanned" skin color (but not the most dark, they looks like french with a tan, like some shepherds). They could indeed have had a more "Indian" or less West European phenotype (compared to the photos above) before the 19th century but it is difficult to say because there are no photos to show it, but it is very likely.
In terms of appearance, they remind me of the semi-nomadic "Yenish" people, except that the latter do not seem to have any Indian contribution (unless a study proves otherwise, in which case I would update my information).


Yes, they have Indian contributions, at least close 1/8 to 1/64 , but this component already includes some "Euro" (Steppic, EEF) contributions, making them appear as at least +95% European with a classical "Balkan + steppe + WHG (Western Hunter-Gatherer)" model.

Their Roma contribution (it is difficult to specify which group, as there is no genetic study on the Romanichals of England) seems to be more significant, around 1/4 to 1/8, so this Roma contribution would contain non-Indian elements, including Balkan, Slavic, Western/North European (depending the group), and Indian elements from different areas.
But you already know all of this.

I wish there were multiple genetic studies on the different "Gypsy" and specific semi-nomadic/nomadic groups (Yeniche) in various countries; there are not enough to my liking.

[Mortimer]

When discussing the Gypsies of England, it is important to differentiate between groups. We are referring here to the Romanichals, not to the more recent groups of Gypsies from Romania and Spain.



That is self-explanatory and obvious because the ones from romania didnt arrived 500 years ago but 20 years ago or like that.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245032/Gypsies-settled-Europe-1-500-years-ago-didnt-arrive-UK-centuries-ago.html

[Flashball]

That is self-explanatory and obvious because the ones from romania didnt arrived 500 years ago but 20 years ago or like that.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245032/Gypsies-settled-Europe-1-500-years-ago-didnt-arrive-UK-centuries-ago.html

I say this because there is a photo of a group of "gypsies" (I don't know what term to use) from Romania in the article.
What is the term for "gypsies" in England? Romanichals, is this correct?

[Mortimer]

Regarding their phenotypes: the photos I shared are old, not recent, and almost all of them already had "Western European" characteristics with "tanned" skin color (but not the most dark, they looks like french with a tan, like some shepherds). They could indeed have had a more "Indian" or less West European phenotype

I think that jet black hair and tanned color is from intermixing, it is obvious they are half romani, nowadays they lost even the tann or most of them.

[Mortimer]

I say this because there is a photo of a group of "gypsies" (I don't know what term to use) from Romania in the article.
What is the term for "gypsies" in England? Romanichals, is this correct?

Because it is about gypsies in general that they arrived 1.500 years ago to europe, and then british gypsies specifically are mentioned to have arrived 500 years ago and from england they went to scandinavia. But ultimately they all have the same origin. They are called Gypsies or Romanichals, there are also Welsh Kale, and it is also obvious through their language and names for themselfes, kale is a sanskrit word and means "black".

[Flashball]

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