Are the Dutch and NW Germans really the same people?

[Watersater79]

Following on from the 'Danish' thread, there is no doubt that Germany is a diverse country, slap-bang in central Europe with a young political history. No doubt, northern Germans have more genetically in common wuth Scandinavians (and the Dutch) than they do with Bavarians. However, although the genetic lines are seemingly blurry, i still find the Dutch and NW Germans to look somewhat different, although there is considerable overlap in terms of looks as well. I can't quite put my finger on it but there does seem to be a very distinctive Dutch look. Benny Sings, Ruud Lubbers and Johan Cruyff would all look rather atypical in northern Germany, IMHO. Meanwhile, I think Manuel Neuer would look rather atypical in the Netherlands.
My friend (whose mother is Dutch) gave me a 1980 Dutch film called 'Spetters' directed by Paul Verhoeven (who also directed Robocop). Watching it, I was astounded at just how 'Dutch' everyone looked even though the Netherlands is hardly in isolated spot.

[Oliver109]

Do you maybe wanna post some examples and let us judge? I personally think the Dutch are paler and more western shifted.

[Hektor12]

Of course, people like VVD would look foreign in Germany but this people are of same origin, they resemble each other more than any other people. Dutch=Shortened Deutsch.

[RobocopReturns]

Following on from the 'Danish' thread, there is no doubt that Germany is a diverse country, slap-bang in central Europe with a young political history. No doubt, northern Germans have more genetically in common wuth Scandinavians (and the Dutch) than they do with Bavarians. However, although the genetic lines are seemingly blurry, i still find the Dutch and NW Germans to look somewhat different, although there is considerable overlap in terms of looks as well. I can't quite put my finger on it but there does seem to be a very distinctive Dutch look. Benny Sings, Ruud Lubbers and Johan Cruyff would all look rather atypical in northern Germany, IMHO. Meanwhile, I think Manuel Neuer would look rather atypical in the Netherlands.
My friend (whose mother is Dutch) gave me a 1980 Dutch film called 'Spetters' directed by Paul Verhoeven (who also directed Robocop). Watching it, I was astounded at just how 'Dutch' everyone looked even though the Netherlands is hardly in isolated spot.

Robocop here. lol

Anyway, I wouldn't say they're the same people, you could then draw the same analogy with many people across the Europe, considering geographical locations (near each others), which is ofcourse total logical.

So going by that analogy, North Serbs would be Same people like Eastern Croats, or Southern Croats would be same people as Montenegrins.

North Croats would be same as Slovenians.

Then North Eeastern/eastern French would be like Germans etc etc...

[Teutone]

Following on from the 'Danish' thread, there is no doubt that Germany is a diverse country, slap-bang in central Europe with a young political history. No doubt, northern Germans have more genetically in common wuth Scandinavians (and the Dutch) than they do with Bavarians. However, although the genetic lines are seemingly blurry, i still find the Dutch and NW Germans to look somewhat different, although there is considerable overlap in terms of looks as well. I can't quite put my finger on it but there does seem to be a very distinctive Dutch look. Benny Sings, Ruud Lubbers and Johan Cruyff would all look rather atypical in northern Germany, IMHO. Meanwhile, I think Manuel Neuer would look rather atypical in the Netherlands.
My friend (whose mother is Dutch) gave me a 1980 Dutch film called 'Spetters' directed by Paul Verhoeven (who also directed Robocop). Watching it, I was astounded at just how 'Dutch' everyone looked even though the Netherlands is hardly in isolated spot.

How autistic can a Person be?

Manuel Neuer or any German in the Netherlands will most likely be addressed on dutch as 99.99% of the human population dont know any phenotype and see a blonde white dude in the Netherlands as very likely to be native or not too foreign.

[Russki]

Genetically it's like this:

North Dutch = Lower Saxony

Central Dutch = Westphalia

South Dutch = North Rhine, Rhineland-Palatinate, North Hesse

Flemish = Rhineland-Palatinate, South Hesse, Baden-Wurttemberg, Bavaria

[Kess]

Genetically it's like this:

North Dutch = Lower Saxony

Central Dutch = Westphalia

South Dutch = North Rhine, Rhineland-Palatinate, North Hesse

Flemish = Rhineland-Palatinate, South Hesse, Baden-Wurttemberg, Bavaria

Are Dutch closer to English or NW Germans?

[Oliver109]

How autistic can a Person be?

Manuel Neuer or any German in the Netherlands will most likely be addressed on dutch as 99.99% of the human population dont know any phenotype and see a blonde white dude in the Netherlands as very likely to be native or not too foreign.

I think there are differences between Dutch and Germans like there are differences between English and Scots or French and Swiss, there are likely some people in Netherlands who don't pass in Germany.

[Teutone]

I think there are differences between Dutch and Germans like there are differences between English and Scots or French and Swiss, there are likely some people in Netherlands who don't pass in Germany.

Individuals from Germany that would be seen as exotic or foreign in the Netherlands, are also exotic in Germany.

Same can be applied vice versa.

The general German and Dutch population look the same to any person that is not interested in anthropology, so by that 99% of German and Dutch citizens.

[Creoda]

Are they generally considered 'the same people'? Or just very similar/closely related (not the same thing). The latter is the only real answer.

Are the Dutch really the same people? Or just an early modern confederation of Franks, Saxons and Frisians? Because they generally are talked of as being one people, despite relatively large differences within.

[Teutone]

Are they generally considered 'the same people'? Or just very similar/closely related (not the same thing). The latter is the only real answer.

Are the Dutch really the same people? Or just an early modern confederation of Franks, Saxons and Frisians? Because they generally are talked of as being one people, despite relatively large differences within.

I can by 100% Guarantee you as Person living not far away from the Netherlands, that I very very often addressed a Dutch person on German cause I thought he is German and that also happens often to Germans in the Netherlands and Dutch people in Germany.

That means people assume the German is a fellow dutchman or vice versa.

[Russki]

Are Dutch closer to English or NW Germans?


I don't trust Davidski's amateur calculators to assess such precise things (it is far more precise than superimposing Dutch and Flemish regions over German regions), and better tools are not available to me.

[Creoda]

I can by 100% Guarantee you as Person living not far away from the Netherlands, that I very very often addressed a Dutch person on German cause I thought he is German and that also happens often to Germans in the Netherlands and Dutch people in Germany.

That means people assume the German is a fellow dutchman or vice versa.
OK, but does that make you 'the same people'? If they didn't speak, many Europeans could be confused for many other European nationalities by people in those countries.

[Teutone]

OK, but does that make you 'the same people'? If they didn't speak many Europeans could be confused for many other European nationalities by people in those countries.

I don't see the dutch as a different ethnicity just like Austrians or German Swiss or American Amish.

Historically they were always considered to be Volksdeutsche.

[Oliver109]

I don't see the dutch as a different ethnicity just like Austrians or German Swiss or American Amish.

Historically they were always considered to be Volksdeutsche.

They speak a completely different language though to German, I think the fact is there is a huge phenotypical difference between France and Flanders so I am certain there is a difference between NL and Germany.

[Teutone]

They speak a completely different language though to German, I think the fact is there is a huge phenotypical difference between France and Flanders so I am certain there is a difference between NL and Germany.

topkek

plus educate yourself about the language family and history of dutch, you might be surprised.

[Tooting Carmen]

In both language and phenotype, the difference between Dutch and German is akin to Portuguese and Spanish.

[Creoda]

I don't see the dutch as a different ethnicity just like Austrians or German Swiss or American Amish.

Historically they were always considered to be Volksdeutsche.
As this is an anthropology section thread I'm leaving ethnicity out of it, hence my question to the OP of whether the Dutch are 'the same people' from North to South. The thread question is ambiguous.

[Oliver109]

In both language and phenotype, the difference between Dutch and German is akin to Portuguese and Spanish.

I would agree wholeheartedly and there are definite differences between both groups though perhaps less so with Galicians.

[Tooting Carmen]

I would agree wholeheartedly and there are definite differences between both groups though perhaps less so with Galicians.

Although both pairings may have slight differences at a group level, individually nearly all Portuguese and Spaniards could pass for the other and likewise Dutch and Germans.

[Oliver109]

Individuals from Germany that would be seen as exotic or foreign in the Netherlands, are also exotic in Germany.

Same can be applied vice versa.

The general German and Dutch population look the same to any person that is not interested in anthropology, so by that 99% of German and Dutch citizens.

I think Dutch can have some more occuring traits like large mouths, wider faces and generally extreme faelid and Anglo Saxon types that I think are less occurring in Germany, I'm gonna post some examples now.

[#Oda#]

Imo there's a slight difference, but I wouldn‘t go that far and say there are Dutch that could not pass in Germany. To my observation there‘s especially a distinct Northern Dutch look, where people look in average somewhat differently than Germans as a whole in any case, but also than NW Germans. It probably also plays a role that Germans have been put through the grinder after WW2, drastically expressed.

[Oliver109]

Although both pairings may have slight differences at a group level, individually nearly all Portuguese and Spaniards could pass for the other and likewise Dutch and Germans.
I doubt it, I have said many times that there are people from Scotland and northern England who wouldn't pass in say Devon, there are certainly looks more local to a place sometimes.

[Oliver109]

Anyway here are pics, Groningen
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/18238150_1133821550096843_2793599304892007852_o.jp g?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=tGn_kN0rrX0AX-PVwi1&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfC0JDT-1vt8wLFxEOpGQFHY8pt4WHpikcjaiInlLf0tqg&oe=662BFAD2
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10322835_648471795298490_3807854547305075869_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=0Q1OPhIEKJgAX_uLx3E&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfCaOevgImhOMaZOMM1uZvdJ6jEEup9kdFsXTLovnjW2 Cw&oe=662C0F0D

Some of these people look super northern
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/10514434_546730932139244_7891701681288323576_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=cnK88XYeIB0AX8pl0Gc&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfAAHDh-PV3cHgxC4LvWvtBRAoO7civCIfMZF38yqQhmrg&oe=662BF39E
The people are from Groningen but obviously this is at least 200km south of there
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10270467_460175057461499_2820482997411911849_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=JFLzfbtHF0oAX-dlw0-&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfDnh4zd0QSFixZQbUEYEYPvkCn27rWlHgAkPl7p7pQ5 1g&oe=662BFC63

Bremen DE

https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/417513703_1106182864159049_2107233989218127923_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=vvozcdUcAb8AX-LbBhp&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfBWuB38iKqTcxRTA2LeTHWzOwkxybjzdnHHD8la3eL6 yQ&oe=6609A375

Yes these are all Germans, at least the boys on the top row are
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/417474942_1079554106821925_2934143424527753915_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=iqnQP3a7saUAX-pdJVT&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfAzXdBT4ieIDNSv7jHxwasjP_s20ysHmXMe-76u6bEPKA&oe=66095284

https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/411479211_1051151712995498_5309019621851720511_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=FOHcNBSC29UAX9liXH5&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfD2FjD43RmXEWmRw9LoQx5O7st5HXDDX8e0dXGyPtBt WA&oe=660A48BB
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408123394_1046118930165443_3079926584307327542_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=qWWyn7AjDzcAX8xDc-E&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfB5V-A6S6V5jdKhXMdTjNN-KACiEX8dVHhBkl55xWL9Dw&oe=6609B54B
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408141647_1044232210354115_981576171076081214_n.jp g?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=fGWQqVDT638AX8n__-8&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfBElTcTmPht8nK4Go2eakeY57GBl8msmjPy0chajLHu OQ&oe=660A7222
Sorry about the 2 Wxxs
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408135009_1044964830280853_6606269680086038435_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=OweNb7AhJqcAX-tTwtu&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfCdq1HPki_UP497zLmlD39dkCWuviLWqikKg9dLq8_m 6w&oe=660A529F

[Watersater79]

How autistic can a Person be?

Manuel Neuer or any German in the Netherlands will most likely be addressed on dutch as 99.99% of the human population dont know any phenotype and see a blonde white dude in the Netherlands as very likely to be native or not too foreign.

Well yes I am Autistic AF. Stupendously so I might add.

[rothaer]

Most people here, including the OP, have essentially applicable imaginations of Dutch and Germans. Considering this, the question is far too undefined. So 80% of the time people will unnecessarily talk past each other.


Following on from the 'Danish' thread, there is no doubt that Germany is a diverse country, slap-bang in central Europe with a young political history. (...)

This is an unbearable popular nonsense. I'll refrain from speculating with what intent this post WWII "insight" may have become distributed.

Germany exists as an own political entity since 843 when the East Frankish Empire evolved, which was then continued as the HRE till 1806, so alomst for thousand years. There were only 9 years of interruption till the German Confederation was founded in 1815 expressly as its successor. This lasted till 1866 and there were only 5 years of interruption till the German Empire of 1871 was founded.

What makes Germany having a "young" political history? To have had in sum 14 years of interruption in over 1000 years of existence as a political entity?!

Or the HRE having contained also non-German areas like Northern Italy? Then you would also say that Russia has just a very "young political history", because the Soviet Union and tsarist Russia doesn't count because it comprised also Khasakstan, Armenia etc.?

In contrast to those posessions, the HRE possession in Northern Italy actually had been legitimated also out of an ethnic connection, as that possession was derived from the Longobard kingdom and the Longobards were not just Germanics but later Germans proper, as linguists found out. The late Longobards could even be attributed the first Germans proper as they were the first Germanics that had the so called German sound shift, defining German and separating it linguistically from other Germanics.

[Watersater79]

Imo there's a slight difference, but I wouldn‘t go that far and say there are Dutch that could not pass in Germany. To my observation there‘s especially a distinct Northern Dutch look, where people look in average somewhat differently than Germans as a whole in any case, but also than NW Germans. It probably also plays a role that Germans have been put through the grinder after WW2, drastically expressed.

'Put through the grinder'. I know what you entailing but could you elaborate, bitte?

[Watersater79]

I think Dutch can have some more occuring traits like large mouths, wider faces and generally extreme faelid and Anglo Saxon types that I think are less occurring in Germany, I'm gonna post some examples now.

It is interesting because the Dutch are thought of as a generally 'longer-faced' population by European standards, but I guess there are phenotypical extremities; with more extreme Nordid types AND more extreme Borreby types. Coon and co. mentioned that the Dutch were metrically the same as the English and 'old-stock' Americans (who were/are of mostly/almost entirely/entirely English ancestry). He also emphasised that the Dutch population could be described as being a predominantly Nordid population with Upper-Paleolithic influence (Anglo-Saxon). However, a great swathe of Dutchies tend to have big, heavy jaws on a level that you don't see in England.

[AlbonicScholar]

I have also thought the Dutch looked more Scandinavian

[Watersater79]

I have also thought the Dutch looked more Scandinavian

You are implying the Dutch are a generally 'good-looking' population? In some ways I do agree. The Dutch and Danes do often look very similar (and despite being Scandinavian, most Danes I have met have actually felt closer to the Dutch than anyone else).

[Hungarian_master]

Anyway here are pics, Groningen
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/18238150_1133821550096843_2793599304892007852_o.jp g?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=tGn_kN0rrX0AX-PVwi1&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfC0JDT-1vt8wLFxEOpGQFHY8pt4WHpikcjaiInlLf0tqg&oe=662BFAD2
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10322835_648471795298490_3807854547305075869_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=0Q1OPhIEKJgAX_uLx3E&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfCaOevgImhOMaZOMM1uZvdJ6jEEup9kdFsXTLovnjW2 Cw&oe=662C0F0D

Some of these people look super northern
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/10514434_546730932139244_7891701681288323576_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=cnK88XYeIB0AX8pl0Gc&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfAAHDh-PV3cHgxC4LvWvtBRAoO7civCIfMZF38yqQhmrg&oe=662BF39E
The people are from Groningen but obviously this is at least 200km south of there
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10270467_460175057461499_2820482997411911849_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=JFLzfbtHF0oAX-dlw0-&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfDnh4zd0QSFixZQbUEYEYPvkCn27rWlHgAkPl7p7pQ5 1g&oe=662BFC63

Bremen DE

https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/417513703_1106182864159049_2107233989218127923_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=vvozcdUcAb8AX-LbBhp&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfBWuB38iKqTcxRTA2LeTHWzOwkxybjzdnHHD8la3eL6 yQ&oe=6609A375

Yes these are all Germans, at least the boys on the top row are
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/417474942_1079554106821925_2934143424527753915_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=iqnQP3a7saUAX-pdJVT&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfAzXdBT4ieIDNSv7jHxwasjP_s20ysHmXMe-76u6bEPKA&oe=66095284

https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/411479211_1051151712995498_5309019621851720511_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=FOHcNBSC29UAX9liXH5&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfD2FjD43RmXEWmRw9LoQx5O7st5HXDDX8e0dXGyPtBt WA&oe=660A48BB
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408123394_1046118930165443_3079926584307327542_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=qWWyn7AjDzcAX8xDc-E&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfB5V-A6S6V5jdKhXMdTjNN-KACiEX8dVHhBkl55xWL9Dw&oe=6609B54B
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408141647_1044232210354115_981576171076081214_n.jp g?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=fGWQqVDT638AX8n__-8&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfBElTcTmPht8nK4Go2eakeY57GBl8msmjPy0chajLHu OQ&oe=660A7222
Sorry about the 2 Wxxs
https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/408135009_1044964830280853_6606269680086038435_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=OweNb7AhJqcAX-tTwtu&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=00_AfCdq1HPki_UP497zLmlD39dkCWuviLWqikKg9dLq8_m 6w&oe=660A529F

Sorry, but I don't see the photos about the Germans! Could you fix it?

[CordedWhelp]

Real question is: which group is more “pure” Ingvaeonic?

:)

[Oliver109]

Sorry, but I don't see the photos about the Germans! Could you fix it?

Yeah ill post here:
https://scontent-lhr6-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/420179441_1123075425803126_5257433791855497707_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=y74JM1mul4YAb4EXBnM&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-2.xx&oh=00_AfCQHKN1ltFAf_89S1E6S4o2rLRUl8l-o1rLbvoplpZRKw&oe=6614C857
https://scontent-lhr6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/419326770_1106182814159054_8712133060618705738_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=E5UTRQDLxrwAb4dhIYo&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-1.xx&oh=00_AfDPxmHBN6sZgbdFD0nKEDQ9Uj9Q-0a91aINfoKzWNQKHA&oe=6614BF53
https://scontent-lhr8-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/410005993_1049977876446215_8717523845415376065_n.j pg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=C_vDQq7zHKwAb7q6kM3&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-2.xx&oh=00_AfAU6duu3iRlKQoWqAZZb9RD9f1temTJwDSZ19Dueaio SA&oe=6614B751
https://scontent-lhr6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/369608067_982590889851581_7859789885106093371_n.jp g?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=Nu30P3Gr7LMAb7nBOWV&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-1.xx&oh=00_AfCEy7C84kgnZWyv21Zz1aaSXFal9EASkk_zoLAD5sSl rA&oe=6614B392

[#Oda#]

'Put through the grinder'. I know what you entailing but could you elaborate, bitte?

I referred to the massive movements after WW2, when not much stayed as it had been before. I‘d say, local pre-WW2 populations merely remained the same, even not in rural areas, at least in the West (FRG). In our house were living four families from the East after the war for example (in each room one). In the GDR it might have been somewhat different. And then there has been ofc a lot of movement within the country for the last decades in all directions for job-related reasons, private relaionships or simply just due to the attractions of regions and landscapes.
I have no figures at hand, but they should be easy to find. Not a Cop has some statistics, I saw.

[Watersater79]

I referred to the massive movements after WW2, when not much stayed as it had been before. I‘d say, local pre-WW2 populations merely remained the same, even not in rural areas, at least in the West (FRG). In our house were living four families from the East after the war for example (in each room one). In the GDR it might have been somewhat different. And then there has been ofc a lot of movement within the country for the last decades in all directions for job-related reasons, private relaionships or simply just due to the attractions of regions and landscapes.
I have no figures at hand, but they should be easy to find. Not a Cop has some statistics, I saw.

I wonder if there was a particular 'Baltic German' phenotype. One would imagine the majority of the German communities in Poland and along the Baltic would have had more 'northern' origins? At the end of the day, however diverse Germany is, these were all still 'ethnic' Germans we are talking about.
On a somewhat different note, I don't disagree with the statements made that the Dutch often look more similar to Scandinavians than their immediate neighbors to the east.

[Dandelion]

Of course, people like VVD would look foreign in Germany but this people are of same origin, they resemble each other more than any other people. Dutch=Shortened Deutsch.

Back in the 17th century the Dutch called our language 'Duits' (just like they did the German language, by the way). In the Middle Ages we called it 'Diets'. Hence in English they call our language 'Dutch' and not 'Netherlandish'. We nowadays call German 'Duits' and used to call Dutch 'Nederduits' in the 19th century and nowadays we call it 'Nederlands'.

I like how they call our language 'Nizozemski' in Croatian 'Nizozemščina' in Slovak and 'Nizozemština' in Czech. Literally 'Netherlandish', but then with Slavic etymology.

[Dandelion]

At the German-Dutch border there are even schools where Dutch and German students speak both languages and are taught in the same classes. It's interesting. Belgium only shares a border with Germany in the French-speaking Walloon region (and of course also the German-speaking Ostbelgien, which is part of Wallonia).

[Feiichy]

Dutch don't look that Scandinavian

They look exeggerated Germanic (north and central Dutch I mean), but they have NW block like ancestry too, unlike NW Germans (maybe excluding Frisians who are very northwestern), that makes them really western shifted and they overlap English Germanic types

[Dandelion]

What's also interesting. Flemish mostly intermarry with Dutch people what other nationalities are concerned. Dutch intermarry the most with Germans, followed by Flemish. They share a longer border with Germany. Germans are a similar people.

The Dutch-speaking region with the highest proficiency in French is West-Flanders, because it borders France. Close to the border with Wallonia and Brussels it's also common. We do intermarry more often with Dutch in the end, but it depends per region.

Ultimately, individuality is more important. I have seen many French working in the Netherlands, some even managers and some even speaking Dutch. Vice versa more common. Talked to a French manager yesterday, based in Amsterdam. Also spoke to a French manager in Rotterdam (the one who spoke Dutch). It's also very common for French people from one of their poorest regions, Nord or Pas-de-Calais to work in West-Flanders, but I have known a guy from Lille who works up to The Hague (he actually works mainly in Wallonia, but for a Dutch company based in The Hague, where I met him and where he also often is present).

[Dandelion]

Also spoke to a Francophone woman from Brussels who claims she is Dutch of origin and nationality, but raised in French. Such people also exist. A 'secret Hollander' haha. There is also one Flemish stand-up comedian who has the British nationality, both parents Brits, born in Delft, but raised in Flanders.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Smith

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Thomas_Smith_door_Dirk_Annemans.jpg

'Secret Brit', born in Holland.

[Watersater79]

Dutch don't look that Scandinavian

They look exeggerated Germanic (north and central Dutch I mean), but they have NW block like ancestry too, unlike NW Germans (maybe excluding Frisians who are very northwestern), that makes them really western shifted and they overlap English Germanic types

What do you mean? The Scandinavians are by-and-large, Germanic
It is interesting though; the genetic overlap between the English and Dutch is seismic but it's still surprising how so many of the latter do not pass as natives in the former. When you refer to that 'block-like' ancestry, could you please elaborate?

[Russki]

When you refer to that 'block-like' ancestry, could you please elaborate?


Insular Celts are descended as a mixture of earlier British Bell Beakers and later Celts from Central Europe.

British Bell Beakers in their turn were descended from Dutch Bell Beakers who made a 90% replacement of Neolithic Britons.

Dutch Bell Beakers who remained on the continent evolved into the Nordwestblock culture of the early Iron Age, which was replaced by incoming Germanic people from the East.


https://sun9-36.userapi.com/impg/XPJ-i1WcSMuUrAvOdAK-mHMFPIZYcnE4B3sqUA/HuDI2W4ME48.jpg?size=681x950&quality=95&sign=ca099ce58e9a8bf3f15272956e459c3d&type=album

[#Oda#]

Dutch don't look that Scandinavian

They look exeggerated Germanic (north and central Dutch I mean), but they have NW block like ancestry too, unlike NW Germans (maybe excluding Frisians who are very northwestern), that makes them really western shifted and they overlap English Germanic types

However, the NW Block territory includes a larger part of NW Germany, reaching down until Hameln in Lower Saxony roughly and the Chatti and Cheruski region.

128461

[Oliver109]

What do you mean? The Scandinavians are by-and-large, Germanic
It is interesting though; the genetic overlap between the English and Dutch is seismic but it's still surprising how so many of the latter do not pass as natives in the former. When you refer to that 'block-like' ancestry, could you please elaborate?

Dutch have quite specific looks, you are not even likely to find typical Dutch phenotypes in Lille just 100 miles from the Dutch border.

[Creoda]

Dutch have quite specific looks, you are not even likely to find typical Dutch phenotypes in Lille just 100 miles from the Dutch border.
That's an oddity I've remarked upon before: the Dutch are the one of the most genetically indistinct nations in Europe, while simultaneously being one of the most phenotypically distinct.

Particularly bizarre as the Netherlands isn't an ancient/early medieval nation but a political creation of the 16th century, and doesn't have strong natural borders (besides the sea). You get lots of Dutchmen who look distinctly Dutch, by contrast you get far fewer Englishmen who look distinctly English.

[Feiichy]

Insular Celts are descended as a mixture of earlier British Bell Beakers and later Celts from Central Europe.

British Bell Beakers in their turn were descended from Dutch Bell Beakers who made a 90% replacement of Neolithic Britons.

Dutch Bell Beakers who remained on the continent evolved into the Nordwestblock culture of the early Iron Age, which was replaced by incoming Germanic people from the East.


https://sun9-36.userapi.com/impg/XPJ-i1WcSMuUrAvOdAK-mHMFPIZYcnE4B3sqUA/HuDI2W4ME48.jpg?size=681x950&quality=95&sign=ca099ce58e9a8bf3f15272956e459c3d&type=album

Good post.


However, the NW Block territory includes a larger part of NW Germany, reaching down until Hameln in Lower Saxony roughly and the Chatti and Cheruski region.

128461

Ups. You're right.

[Feiichy]

What do you mean? The Scandinavians are by-and-large, Germanic
It is interesting though; the genetic overlap between the English and Dutch is seismic but it's still surprising how so many of the latter do not pass as natives in the former. When you refer to that 'block-like' ancestry, could you please elaborate?

I mean Scandinavians have their own looks.

If you compare Dutch and Norwegians I don't think you would say they look that similar. There is huge overlap between Germanics but they are still different.

[Oliver109]

That's an oddity I've remarked upon before: the Dutch are the one of the most genetically indistinct nations in Europe, while simultaneously being one of the most phenotypically distinct.

Particularly bizarre as the Netherlands isn't an ancient/early medieval nation but a political creation of the 16th century, and doesn't have strong natural borders (besides the sea). You get lots of Dutchmen who look distinctly Dutch, by contrast you get far fewer Englishmen who look distinctly English.

It could be because the Netherlands is fairly isolated from the rest of Europe being on the northwest corner? It makes sense that the least distinct people are from central, central eastern Europe i.e the eastern French, Swiss, Austrians, Czechs.

[Feiichy]

It could be because the Netherlands is fairly isolated from the rest of Europe being on the northwest corner? It makes sense that the least distinct people are from central, central eastern Europe i.e the eastern French, Swiss, Austrians, Czechs.

I wrote few years ago I find Dutch most alien looking nation to Croats in entire Europe, if we exclude far southern Meds like Maltese and similar groups.

They just have very distinct and very western look and are also very blond. But it's mostly about facial features.

Almost no Dutch pass well in Croatia.

North Germans don't look nearly that alien, neither do Brits and neither do Scandinavians which is very interesting and hard to explain.

[Watersater79]

I wrote few years ago I find Dutch most alien looking nation to Croats in entire Europe, if we exclude far southern Meds like Maltese and similar groups.

They just have very distinct and very western look and are also very blond. But it's mostly about facial features.

Almost no Dutch pass well in Croatia.

North Germans don't look nearly that alien, neither do Brits and neither do Scandinavians which is very interesting and hard to explain.

Either there is something we don’t know about the Dutch genome, or this reiterates the argument that genotype is not always synonymous with phenotype.

[Watersater79]

It could be because the Netherlands is fairly isolated from the rest of Europe being on the northwest corner? It makes sense that the least distinct people are from central, central eastern Europe i.e the eastern French, Swiss, Austrians, Czechs.

The Netherlands certainly is hardly isolated. It resides on the Northern European plain. If it was like Wales, bearing a mainly upland landscape, we wouldn’t have people querying as to why the Dutch bear an overall unique phenotype in a NW European context. But it isn’t and so the mystery prevails.

[Watersater79]

That's an oddity I've remarked upon before: the Dutch are the one of the most genetically indistinct nations in Europe, while simultaneously being one of the most phenotypically distinct.

Particularly bizarre as the Netherlands isn't an ancient/early medieval nation but a political creation of the 16th century, and doesn't have strong natural borders (besides the sea). You get lots of Dutchmen who look distinctly Dutch, by contrast you get far fewer Englishmen who look distinctly English.

I would say the majority of English look distinctly ‘English’, Creoda. The English definitely have a very ‘distinct’ look on average.

[Oliver109]

I wrote few years ago I find Dutch most alien looking nation to Croats in entire Europe, if we exclude far southern Meds like Maltese and similar groups.

They just have very distinct and very western look and are also very blond. But it's mostly about facial features.

Almost no Dutch pass well in Croatia.

North Germans don't look nearly that alien, neither do Brits and neither do Scandinavians which is very interesting and hard to explain.

Interesting, I think the Netherlands is basically where very robust and fair people managed to find a seat, the area saw minimal Mediterranean migrations and probably little alpinid influence as well.

[Creoda]

I would say the majority of English look distinctly ‘English’, Creoda. The English definitely have a very ‘distinct’ look on average.
So you think the majority of English don't pass well among neighbouring nationalities? I'm not saying the majority of English don't look English first and foremost, but fewer of them look only English, than the amount of Dutch who look only Dutch. But I also think the English are less distinct looking overall than the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh (and French). Many English pass well as Welsh, Scottish or Irish due to Brittonic ancestry and historical English settlement in those countries, many pass well as Dutch or Danish due to Anglo-Saxons and the Danelaw, and many pass well as French due to the medieval French migration.

[Feiichy]

Interesting, I think the Netherlands is basically where very robust and fair people managed to find a seat, the area saw minimal Mediterranean migrations and probably little alpinid influence as well.

Could Donald Trump pass as Dutch?

[CosmoLady]

Could Donald Trump pass as Dutch?

Yes I think so.
He looks Anglo-Saxon to me (his mother was Scottish), these types exist in the Low Countries and northwest Germany.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEak1gfXkAI3-7z.jpg

With his 100% German father:

https://image.pbs.org/video-assets/pbs/newshour/231475/images/mezzanine_618.jpg

[Oliver109]

Could Donald Trump pass as Dutch?

Yeah, i see his type in the UK too, he looks general west Euro

[Watersater79]

Yes I think so.
He looks Anglo-Saxon to me (his mother was Scottish), these types exist in the Low Countries and northwest Germany.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEak1gfXkAI3-7z.jpg

With his 100% German father:

https://image.pbs.org/video-assets/pbs/newshour/231475/images/mezzanine_618.jpg

I always thought of Trump as looking pretty English, TBH. Despite his parentage he doesn't give off that pan-American 'Euromutt' vibe so endemic to the Midwest. His mother was a Norse-Gael anyway, being from the Isle of Lewis and all. His 'Trump' side didn't exactly come from the most 'Germanic' part of Germany either, so it all evens out (concerning his phenotype).

[Oliver109]

I always thought of Trump as looking pretty English, TBH. Despite his parentage he doesn't give off that pan-American 'Euromutt' vibe so endemic to the Midwest. His mother was a Norse-Gael anyway, being from the Isle of Lewis and all. His 'Trump' side didn't exactly come from the most 'Germanic' part of Germany either, so it all evens out (concerning his phenotype).

He looks English and American really, i see him as "one of us" and also as typically American, he isn't more American the way George Bush was.