Gedmatch results of my friend

[Watersater79]

I have a close 'acquaintance' shall we say who recently did a DNA test with MyHeritage (which I know is pretty iffy). However, the results he got back were not too 'iffy'. He lives in England, but his mother is almost entirely Welsh (with a small amount of English) ancestry, whilst his father is of mostly English ancestry (but he is also around 1/3rd Scottish, with the remainder of his ancestry being distant amounts of Irish and Welsh). My friend is approximately
48.4375% Welsh
35.9375% English
14.0625% Scottish
1.5625% Irish
He put his results into Gedmatch and was a tad confused, and in fairness, I still can't quite get my head around some of the results.
These are his K13 results. He is under the impression that he has an eerily high amount of 'East Med'. They do seem a bit 'iffy' in some ways. Almost as if he has some ancestry he doesn't know about? Fun-fact, his father also took a DNA test, and although he had a smaller amount of 'North_Atlantic' he also had a bigger distance between himself and 'SE England'.

1 North_Atlantic 52.22
2 Baltic 22.21
3 West_Med 12.15
4 East_Med 6.59
5 West_Asian 5.4
6 Oceanian 0.49
7 South_Asian 0.39
8 Siberian 0.28
9 Amerindian 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southeast_English 2.95
2 Orcadian 4.31
3 Southwest_English 4.42
4 West_Scottish 4.54
5 Irish 4.96
6 North_Dutch 5.19
7 Danish 5.46
8 North_German 7.14
9 Norwegian 7.45
10 South_Dutch 7.61
11 West_German 8.56
12 Swedish 10.02
13 French 12.21
14 Austrian 15.07
15 East_German 15.86
16 North_Swedish 15.93
17 Spanish_Cataluna 18.93
18 Hungarian 19.52
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 20.19
20 Southwest_French 20.66

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.8% Southeast_English + 16.2% West_Scottish @ 2.87
2 99.3% Southeast_English + 0.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.92
3 99.5% Southeast_English + 0.5% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.93
4 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.93
5 99.5% Southeast_English + 0.5% Kurdish @ 2.93
6 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.93
7 99.5% Southeast_English + 0.5% Lezgin @ 2.94
8 99.5% Southeast_English + 0.5% Tabassaran @ 2.94
9 94.5% Southeast_English + 5.5% Irish @ 2.94
10 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Assyrian @ 2.94
11 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Armenian @ 2.94
12 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Iranian @ 2.94
13 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Azeri @ 2.94
14 99.6% Southeast_English + 0.4% Palestinian @ 2.94
15 99.7% Southeast_English + 0.3% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.94
16 99.7% Southeast_English + 0.3% Abhkasian @ 2.94
17 96% Southeast_English + 4% Danish @ 2.94
18 99.7% Southeast_English + 0.3% Georgian @ 2.94
19 99.7% Southeast_English + 0.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.94
20 96% Southeast_English + 4% North_Dutch @ 2.94

In this context does that 'Southeast_England' cluster refer to pre-Germanic times? If so that could make sense?

[Watersater79]

These are his MDLP K11 Modern Oracle Results

# Population (source) Distance
1 British_Celtic 5.86
2 Bell_Beaker_Germany 6.72
3 Alberstedt_LN 6.79
4 Halberstadt_LBA 8.38
5 British_IronAge 8.56
6 Bell_Beaker_Czech 10.59
7 British_AngloSaxon 11.7
8 Nordic_MN_B 11.71
9 Nordic_BA 12.02
10 Nordic_LN 12.67
11 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN 12.73
12 Hungary_BA 13.36
13 Unetice_EBA 13.72
14 Bell_Beaker 14.1
15 Maros_BA 14.78
16 Nordic_BattleAxe 14.99
17 Nordic_IA 15.27
18 Nordic_LBA 15.87
19 Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland 16.09
20 Germany_Bronze_Age 16.38

[J. Ketch]

Tell your 'friend' not to worry, 'his' results are within the natural variation of results for 'his' supposed ancestry. And if 'he' asks the exact same question again later tell 'him' to refer back to this answer.

[Petalpusher]

In this context does that 'Southeast_England' cluster refer to pre-Germanic times? If so that could make sense?

All the references are modern. His east med is a bit high (i score less than that and im SE French) but he doesn't score red_sea at all and normal west asian, so it might be just some overfitting in one component rather than a spread in the ones around it. Either way, in the variation.

[Watersater79]

Tell your 'friend' not to worry, 'his' results are within the natural variation of results for 'his' supposed ancestry. And if 'he' asks the exact same question again later tell 'him' to refer back to this answer.

But I did see another kit (he matched with and got in contact with); the individual in question is 50/50 Welsh/English (more English than he is), but he was far closer to the 'West Scottish' or 'Irish' clusters and had a much greater distance between him and 'SE England'. As Petalpusher elaborates to me, this segment refers to SE England as it is now? In fairness, you actually described the 'SE England' segment as rather defunct, I think, one time.

[Watersater79]

All the references are modern. His east med is a bit high (i score less than that and im SE French) but he doesn't score red_sea at all and normal west asian, so it might be just some overfitting in one component rather than a spread in the ones around it. Either way, in the variation.

'Overfitting'? How does that work?

[Petalpusher]

'Overfitting'? How does that work?

East med and red_sea are close on a pca and most people score something of the latter, even if very low (1-2% or less), they peak both in the same populations (Yemenite Jewish, Lebanese, Saudi,..) it seems interchangeable to some extent. He doesn't score any red sea, that might explain his slightly higher east med. Don't read too much into it, besides that it's standard Brit scores and the mix mode shows it too (+99% SE English fits) means there is no better combination than just being English.

[Watersater79]

East med and red_sea are close on a pca and most people score something of the latter, even if very low (1-2% or less), they peak both in the same populations (Yemenite Jewish, Lebanese, Saudi,..) it seems interchangeable to some extent. He doesn't score any red sea, that might explain his slightly higher east med. Don't read too much into it, besides that it's standard Brit scores and the mix mode shows it too (+99% SE English fits) means there is no better combination than just being English.

He is only around 36% English. This might be normal scores for an English person but not someone with it as a minority?

[Petalpusher]

He is only around 36% English. This might be normal scores for an English person but not someone with it as a minority?

I mean he is from UK all the same, it gets harder to distinguish between the countries. You would need IBD for that.

[Watersater79]

I mean he is from UK all the same, it gets harder to distinguish between the countries. You would need IBD for that.

The English are genetically closer to the Dutch than the Welsh (or at least those are the results of the majority of English Gedmatch kits I have seen). Fed up with people thinking the British Isles are just this genetically homogeneous 'blob'. That said, in a wider European context, NW Europe has little genetic diversity.

[Watersater79]

Tell your 'friend' not to worry, 'his' results are within the natural variation of results for 'his' supposed ancestry. And if 'he' asks the exact same question again later tell 'him' to refer back to this answer.

But once again, why he would be closest to ‘SE England’ when it makes up only a minority of his ancestry? Sorry to sound dumb, Creoda.

[Petalpusher]

The English are genetically closer to the Dutch than the Welsh (or at least those are the results of the majority of English Gedmatch kits I have seen). Fed up with people thinking the British Isles are just this genetically homogeneous 'blob'. That said, in a wider European context, NW Europe has little genetic diversity.

There s not even a Welsh reference in K13. His ancestry just averages closest to SE English here. Someone from Kent could get exactly the same result with no other ancestry.

[Watersater79]

There s not even a Welsh reference in K13. His ancestry just averages closest to SE English here. Someone from Kent could get exactly the same result with no other ancestry.

It wouldn’t surprise if someone from Kent (with no other SE English ancestry, however freakin’ rare that is) got this distance though? Surely he should be closer to ‘SW English’ at least. More often than not it appears most Welsh GedMatch kits cluster closer to the Irish or West Scottish before anything else (obviouslt his English ancestry still comes into play).

[J. Ketch]

But once again, why he would be closest to ‘SE England’ when it makes up only a minority of his ancestry? Sorry to sound dumb, Creoda.
Because as I've told you before, the SE English average on gedmatch is inaccurate and actually closer to real SW English.

[Watersater79]

Because as I've told you before, the SE English average on gedmatch is inaccurate and actually closer to real SW English.

Could you elaborate as to why it is ‘inaccurate’. You are implying that someone who was truly from Kent (with not much other ancestry) would be closer to ‘North_Dutch’ before anything else?

[J. Ketch]

Could you elaborate as to why it is ‘inaccurate’. You are implying that someone who was truly from Kent (with not much other ancestry) would be closer to ‘North_Dutch’ before anything else?
It's inaccurate because I collected hundreds of gedmatch kits from Southern England and the real average is more Eastern/Southeastern shifted, with 1-1.5% less North Atlantic. I'm not implying that at all. The real average of around 100 SE English still scores closest to 'Southeast_English' in the limited and inaccurate gedmatch references, as does a real average of around 30 SW English, because 'Southwest_English' in gedmatch is actually Cornish.

Distance to: English_Southeast
2.30555850 Southeast_English
3.36368845 Orcadian
3.97785118 Southwest_English
4.29000000 North_Dutch
4.43703730 Irish
4.68197608 Danish
4.95197940 West_Scottish
5.61419629 North_German
6.16703332 South_Dutch
7.16752398 Norwegian
7.63019004 West_German
9.32557773 Swedish
12.49673557 French
14.26408777 Austrian
14.88865004 East_German
15.81966814 North_Swedish
19.71207752 Hungarian
20.63445420 Spanish_Cataluna
21.79876602 Southwest_French
21.94241782 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Distance to: English_Southwest
2.22425268 Southeast_English
2.44863227 Southwest_English
2.92726835 Orcadian
3.83478813 Irish
4.13468258 West_Scottish
4.90609825 North_Dutch
5.48651073 Danish
6.95012950 North_German
7.06777193 South_Dutch
7.54905954 Norwegian
8.79859648 West_German
10.00011500 Swedish
12.85471509 French
15.53314843 Austrian
16.04683769 East_German
16.64599652 North_Swedish
20.60610589 Spanish_Cataluna
21.06729456 Hungarian
21.37451988 Southwest_French
21.87916360 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

But if I put gedmatch's 'Southeast_English' against more accurate averages it comes even behind some South/Central Dutch averages for my collected 100+ SE English kits

Distance to: English_Southeast
0.67727395 English_West-Midlands
0.68934752 English_East-Midlands
1.21239433 English_East
1.45499141 English_Northeast
1.65393470 English_Southwest
1.70786416 Dutch_South-Holland
2.09394365 English_Lancashire
2.14711434 Dutch_North-Brabant
2.25262070 Cornish
2.25521618 English_Yorkshire
2.30555850 Southeast_English
2.66996255 Welsh_South
2.78896038 Scottish_East
2.97553357 Scottish_North-Highlands
3.02206883 Scottish_Northeast
3.14753872 Dutch_Gelderland
3.21591356 British_Ulster
3.36368845 Scottish_Orkney
3.38504062 German_Westphalia
3.44360276 Scottish_Southwest

[Watersater79]

So ‘South_east English’ would be most accurate for someone from Cornwall or Cumbria (with nothing else to it)?

[J. Ketch]

So ‘South_east English’ would be most accurate for someone from Cornwall or Cumbria (with nothing else to it)?
People from Western parts of England generally, yes.

[Watersater79]

People from Western parts of England generally, yes.

The non-Brythonic admixture in England really only dissapates once you get to Cornwall, Cumbria or the Welsh Borders, though. The West Midlands (excluding Shropshire/Herefordshire) are still more similar to the Dutch than the Welsh. What makes it different at all to 'SW England' in this regard? If that is true (about its true location and I have no reason to disbelieve you) that would make more sense. Almost the entirety of the 36% of his ancestry that is English is derived from the SE, so one would assume he would be most similar (when you take into account that area, his Welsh ancestry, and his smaller amounts of Scottish) that he would be almost indistinguishable to someone from Cumbria. Is the reason for the enormous genetic overlap between the Dutch and the English because that is where the Bell Beaker era migrants arrived in Britannia from? Obviously this is coupled with all the Germanic admixture.

[Flashball]

EEF = mostly west-med + some north atlantic + some east med

My northern french father results:

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 51.99
2 West_Med 17.65
3 Baltic 15.18
4 East_Med 7.36
5 West_Asian 4.01
6 East_Asian 1.73
7 Oceanian 0.82
8 Sub-Saharan 0.62
9 Red_Sea 0.56
10 South_Asian 0.07

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 7.94
2 Southeast_English 8.53
3 French 9.45
4 South_Dutch 9.59
5 West_Scottish 10.35
6 Orcadian 10.55
7 West_German 10.87
8 Irish 10.93
9 North_Dutch 12.49
10 Danish 12.9
11 Spanish_Cataluna 13.18
12 North_German 14.06
13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.33
14 Spanish_Cantabria 14.7
15 Norwegian 14.85
16 Southwest_French 14.86
17 Spanish_Aragon 15.36
18 Spanish_Murcia 15.52
19 Portuguese 15.58
20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 15.58

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61% West_Scottish + 39% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.2
2 69.1% Southwest_English + 30.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.47
3 59.7% Irish + 40.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.71
4 69.9% Southwest_English + 30.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.73
5 61.7% West_Scottish + 38.3% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.78
6 62% West_Scottish + 38% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.86
7 61.8% West_Scottish + 38.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.87
8 70.4% Southwest_English + 29.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.89
9 72.5% Southeast_English + 27.5% French_Basque @ 4.9
10 65% West_Scottish + 35% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.92
11 67.6% Southeast_English + 32.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.93
12 73.1% Southwest_English + 26.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.94
13 70.4% Southwest_English + 29.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.94
14 57.3% West_Scottish + 42.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.98
15 66.4% Southwest_English + 33.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.98
16 61% Orcadian + 39% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.98
17 68.7% Southwest_English + 31.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.1
18 59.8% West_Scottish + 40.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 5.14
19 73% Southwest_English + 27% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.31
20 60.7% West_Scottish + 39.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.34


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Spanish_Aragon +50% West_Scottish @ 5.467800


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_English +25% Southwest_English +25% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.171288


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.171288
2 Southeast_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.239985
3 French + French_Basque + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 5.249857
4 French + French_Basque + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 5.291346
5 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon + West_Scottish @ 5.321480
6 Southeast_English + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon + West_Scottish @ 5.388845
7 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Spanish_Murcia @ 5.416526
8 Danish + French_Basque + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 5.422565
9 Spanish_Aragon + Spanish_Cataluna + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 5.425607
10 French + French_Basque + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 5.429472
11 French_Basque + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 5.429846
12 French_Basque + Spanish_Cataluna + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 5.429970
13 Southeast_English + Southeast_English + Southwest_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 5.432822
14 French_Basque + Norwegian + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 5.453250
15 French_Basque + North_Dutch + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 5.465650
16 Spanish_Aragon + Spanish_Aragon + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 5.467800
17 Danish + French_Basque + Spanish_Cataluna + West_Scottish @ 5.471735
18 French + French_Basque + Irish + Southeast_English @ 5.476704
19 French + French_Basque + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 5.481053
20 French + French_Basque + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 5.492773



My normand friend:

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 44.79
2 Baltic 20.09
3 West_Med 15.75
4 East_Med 9.56
5 West_Asian 6.34
6 East_Asian 1.17
7 South_Asian 0.93
8 Red_Sea 0.55
9 Oceanian 0.51
10 Northeast_African 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 3.17
2 South_Dutch 3.19
3 French 5.32
4 Southeast_English 7.38
5 Southwest_English 8.92
6 North_German 9.65
7 Orcadian 9.77
8 North_Dutch 10.27
9 Danish 10.27
10 Irish 10.68
11 West_Scottish 10.89
12 Austrian 11.12
13 Spanish_Cataluna 12.64
14 Norwegian 12.77
15 East_German 12.92
16 Swedish 13.87
17 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.07
18 Portuguese 14.16
19 Spanish_Galicia 14.31
20 Hungarian 15.28

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.9% Southeast_English + 17.1% South_Italian @ 1.45
2 80.4% Southeast_English + 19.6% West_Sicilian @ 1.45
3 79.7% Southeast_English + 20.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.47
4 82.2% Southeast_English + 17.8% East_Sicilian @ 1.64
5 81.8% Southeast_English + 18.2% Central_Greek @ 1.65
6 76.5% Southeast_English + 23.5% Tuscan @ 1.66
7 85% Southeast_English + 15% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.76
8 87.1% Southeast_English + 12.9% Cyprian @ 1.78
9 80.1% Southwest_English + 19.9% Ashkenazi @ 1.79
10 84.7% Southeast_English + 15.3% Italian_Jewish @ 1.8
11 84.7% Southeast_English + 15.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 1.85
12 70.9% Orcadian + 29.1% Tuscan @ 1.9
13 75.6% Orcadian + 24.4% West_Sicilian @ 2.05
14 83.2% Southeast_English + 16.8% Ashkenazi @ 2.06
15 64.6% Danish + 35.4% North_Italian @ 2.08
16 86% Southeast_English + 14% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.09
17 64.7% North_Dutch + 35.3% North_Italian @ 2.13
18 72.3% Southeast_English + 27.7% North_Italian @ 2.18
19 68.6% West_Scottish + 31.4% Tuscan @ 2.19
20 78.9% Southwest_English + 21.1% Central_Greek @ 2.19