Nakhs (Chechen and Ingush) on G25

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/pE4aN9KatHg

https://youtu.be/JKZzaUPnefI


The Nakh peoples are a group of North Caucasian peoples identified by their use of the Nakh languages and other cultural similarities. These are chiefly the ethnic Chechen (including the Chechen sub-ethnos, the Kists, in Georgia), Ingush and Bats peoples of the North Caucasus, including closely related minor or historical groups.

[axlredneck]

https://i.ibb.co/tQKP7yb/IMG-20240603-175023.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/y6QPNbZ/IMG-20240603-174754.jpg

[axlredneck]

Nakh_38,0.1126691,0.1056882,-0.0307089,-0.0101288,-0.0368351,0.0051714,0.0089709,-0.0045866,-0.0566911,-0.0316172,-0.0012486,0.0085882,-0.017224,-0.0049606,0.0109529,-0.0105296,0.0039448,-0.004673,-0.0079962,0.0131316,0.0042906,0.00227,0.0035685,0. 004598,-0.0023585
Dagestani,0.11800774,0.11407859,-0.02156034,0.00968767,-0.03317939,0.01397103,0.00704387,-0.00494494,-0.05501074,-0.03829925,-0.00063611,0.00618589,-0.01190313,-0.01011893,0.01550874,-0.00200167,-0.00168614,-0.00508834,-0.00595047,0.00798025,-0.00078273,0.00249757,0.00528548,0.01391845,-0.00260348
Koban,0.1099996,0.1331814,-0.0588366,-0.0477495,-0.0418791,-0.0075558,0.0125707,-0.0050832,-0.0664478,-0.0236854,-0.0002218,0.0134871,-0.0279644,0.0051154,0.0039188,-0.0255718,0.0129853,-0.0059349,-0.012704,0.0211672,0.015383,0.0019206,0.0023487,-0.0099043,-0.0025068
Turkic,0.0851918,-0.1183079,0.056596,0.0459987,-0.0373003,0.0073943,0.0038471,0.0011137,-0.0144634,-0.0234187,-0.0120073,-0.0001459,0.0014925,-0.0211864,0.0146419,0.007076,-0.0025917,0.00585,0.0025001,0.0084922,-0.0184147,0.0024431,-0.0032073,0.0127828,0.0004475
https://i.ibb.co/7QyzZyY/IMG-20240603-193032.png

[axlredneck]

https://i.ibb.co/Yd1gyjY/IMG-20240603-174249.jpg

[axlredneck]

Kumyk / Turkic Y-lineages in Chechens

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ663/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y20793/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y95687/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y155382/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y210282/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY170286/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-Y83760/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/D-Y162003/

[axlredneck]

Ingush Y-DNA (n=590)

G 2.2%
I2 0.17%
J1 3.56%
J2 84.41%
L 7.12%
R1a 2.37%
R1b 0.17%

[axlredneck]

Chechen Y-DNA (n=2135)

C 0.14%
D 0.14%
E 0.14%
G 3.8%
I2 0.18%
J1 25%
J2 48.3%
L 13%
T 0.5%
N 0.28%
Q 4.2%
R1a 2.34%
R1b 1.3%
R2 0.68%

[axlredneck]

Medieval founder effects in Chechens

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y6266/ (12%)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP4055/ (4%)

[Anatolya]

Distance to: Anatolya_scaled
0.06310060 Nakh_38
0.07768658 Koban
0.08114664 Dagestani
0.26520606 Turkic

[axlredneck]

Distance to: Anatolya_scaled
0.06310060 Nakh_38
0.07768658 Koban
0.08114664 Dagestani
0.26520606 Turkic

Are you monoethnic or a mix?

[Anatolya]

Are you monoethnic or a mix?

What's your guess?

[axlredneck]

What's your guess?

A mix.

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/lP3Qvs_BrYw


The Kists are a Chechen subethnic group in Georgia. They primarily live in the Pankisi Gorge, in the eastern Georgian region of Kakheti.

[axlredneck]

Target: tk'es_scaled

Can you share your result here?

[tk'es]

Can you share your result here?



Target: tk'es_scaled
Distance: 3.3804% / 0.03380439
40.8 Dagestani
28.8 Koban
22.2 Nakh_38
8.2 Turkic



Target: tk'es_scaled
Distance: 3.3805% / 0.03380511 | ADC: 0.25x RC
96.8 Nakh_38
3.2 Turkic



Distance to: tk'es_scaled
0.03474444 Nakh_38
0.04704752 Dagestani
0.07962816 Koban
0.25052008 Turkic

[axlredneck]

https://youtu.be/ZMmlsq177cg

https://youtu.be/iF4iSW2e5u8

[axlredneck]

Chechens of the gar H'acharoy-G'uzar have a Ugric origin
https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-FT247100/


A teip is a Chechen and Ingush tribal organization or clan, self-identified through descent from a common ancestor or geographic location. It is a sub-unit of the tukkhum and shahar. There are about 150 Chechen and 120 Ingush teips. Teips played an important role in the socioeconomic life of the Chechen and Ingush peoples before and during the Middle Ages, and continue to be an important cultural part to this day. Teips are further subdivided into gar (branches), and gars into nekye (patronymic families).

[axlredneck]

New sample
https://i.ibb.co/q7xyHTm/IMG-20240604-124824.jpg

[Leto]

The Ingush are a bit less North European than the Chechens on average, don't know how exactly that translates into differences in looks, though I believe the former are indeed somewhat darker than the latter.

[axlredneck]

mtDNA: HV2a1 (https://yfull.com/mtree/HV2a1/)
Period: Early Medieval
Age: 450 — 850 CE
Region: North Ossetia

https://i.ibb.co/mGz1ppG/IMG-20240615-135247.jpg

A medieval Nakh most likely.....

[Frowning Man]

https://sun9-18.userapi.com/impg/iG6SbuhceTbsj1Nur6ZpPTxMIdtec4iEWfaYPw/0K40fP6E3Oo.jpg?size=1113x710&quality=95&sign=f0bca2085fca9f585b7fcb398e9cec63&type=album


https://sun9-4.userapi.com/impg/1o4Gjmw63p52c162cO4WsC4Pi30oA3nDsIuEzA/iXSDN6hrTZA.jpg?size=720x621&quality=95&sign=403695cbf51c939467c8f44da67251b8&type=album

[Frowning Man]

The Ingush are a bit less North European than the Chechens on average, don't know how exactly that translates into differences in looks, though I believe the former are indeed somewhat darker than the latter.

For example, % light (blue and gray) eyes from the works of Abdushelishvili, Javkhishvili and Debets.

Vainakh:
Chechens Shalsky - 15%
Ingush Nazran - 7.9%
Kitins - 11.8%
Batsbians - 15.5%
Chechens Bunak has an average score of 1.04, which is approximately 12-13%
According to bunak, the Ingush have an average eye color score of 1.27, which is approximately 7-8%.


But in terms of hair color, it seems to be the opposite, Ingush show a lower average hair color score, therefore a little lighter.
Ingush Nazran - 3.91
Chechens Shal - 3.92
Kists - 3.88
Batsbians - 3.85

[Leto]

For example, % light (blue and gray) eyes from the works of Abdushelishvili, Javkhishvili and Debets.

Vainakh:
Chechens Shalsky - 15%
Ingush Nazran - 7.9%
Kitins - 11.8%
Batsbians - 15.5%
Chechens Bunak has an average score of 1.04, which is approximately 12-13%
According to bunak, the Ingush have an average eye color score of 1.27, which is approximately 7-8%.


But in terms of hair color, it seems to be the opposite, Ingush show a lower average hair color score, therefore a little lighter.
Ingush Nazran - 3.91
Chechens Shal - 3.92
Kists - 3.88
Batsbians - 3.85
Cool. Ca. 15 percent light eyes sounds plausible. I guess some teips may be lighter than others. Do you have similar data on Dagestanis? They have the highest Steppe/North European admixture in the whole Caucasus.

[Impaler]

I have a Chechen/Ingush Y-DNA subclade :) Medieval matches:

https://i.ibb.co/tB5LZbX/Untitled.png (https://ibb.co/7vFkgG4)

[axlredneck]

I have a Chechen/Ingush Y-DNA subclade :) Medieval matches:

https://i.ibb.co/tB5LZbX/Untitled.png (https://ibb.co/7vFkgG4)

Are you YF129239?
https://i.ibb.co/hHfG89D/IMG-20240615-165751.jpg

[Frowning Man]

Cool. Ca. 15 percent light eyes sounds plausible. I guess some teips may be lighter than others. Do you have similar data on Dagestanis? They have the highest Steppe/North European admixture in the whole Caucasus.

Yes, I have.
In the Caucasus, light does not depend on steppe/northern European admixture. There are many groups that have no steppe admixture at all, but they are among the lightest in the Kakaz.

% light (blue and gray) eyes from the works of Abdushelishvili, Javkhishvili, Bunak, Levin and Debets.

Vainakh:
Chechens Shalsky - 15%
Ingush Nazran - 7.9%
Kitins - 11.8%
Batsbians - 15.5%
Chechens (Bunak) average score 1.04 ~ ​​12-13%
Ingush (Bunak) average score 1.27 ~ ​​7-8%

Dagestanis(Mountains) Andians:
Andes - 15%
Botkhlikhians - 9.9%
Godoberinians - 9.1%
Karatinians - 6.8%
Ahvakhi - 27%
Kwanadin - 8.2%
Chamalins - 16.3%
Tindinians - 10%

Dagestani(Mountains) Tsezy:
Khvarshintsy - 13.7%
Tsuntin people - 32.4%
Gunikh residents - 16.7%
Bezhitins - 9.5%
Gunibtsy - 7.5%

Avars of the western regions - 16.7%
Avars from other areas - 8%
Laks of different districts - 8%

Adygs:
Shapsugs Lazarevskie - 0%
Shapsugs Takhtamukai - 9%
Bzheduhi Takhtamukaiskie - 8%
Chemgui Krasnogvardeyskie - 18%
Abadzekh Shenginoevskys - 16%

Abaza Ikon-Khalkaevskie - 18%
Abaza Kislovodsk -19.8%

Circassians Khazbez - 15%
Circassians Ikon-Khalkaevsky - 13.2%

Kabardians Nagorny - 18%
Kabardians Baksan - 17%
KabardiansLeskensky - 7%
Kabardians Terek - 8%

Karachay-Balkarians:
Karachais - 14.9%
Balkars - 8%
Karachais (Levin) average score 0.98 ~ 14-15%
Balkars (Levin) average score 1.23 ~ 7-8%

Ossetians:
Ossetians Iraf - 12.8%
Ossetians of Gizeldon - 15%
Ossetians Java - 8%
Ossetians of Tskhinvali - 13.7%

Western Georgians Imeretians:
Imeretians Samtredia - 12%
Imeretians of Zestafoni - 21%
Imeretians of Chiataur - 19.4%
Imereti Vani - 23%
Imeretians Ordzhonikidze - 14.3%
Imeretians of Sachkhere - 13%
Imeretians Mayakvsky - 26%
Imeretians Terzholsky - 16%
Imeretians of Tkibuli - 7.9%

Western Georgians of Megrel:
Mingrelians Senaki - 16.5%
Mingrelians Zugdidi - 12.8%
Megreli Gali - 15%
Megrelians - Tsalenjikha - 16%
Mingrelians Chkhootsku - 14%
Mingrelians Martvili - 17%

Western Georgians Gurians:
Gurians of Ozurgeti - 19%
Gurians of Chokhatauri - 9.1%
Gurians of Lanchkhuti - 17.5%

Abkhazians:
Abkhazians of Ochamchira (East, assimilated Mingrelians) - 17.8%
Abkhaz Gudauta (West) - 11.9%
Abkhaz Gagra (Westmost) - 9%
Abkhazians (Bunak) - 15.3%

Georgians are mountaineers of the east:
Khevsurs - 16.6%
Khevsurs (Bunak) - 13.3%
Tushins (ethnic Georgians) - 18.5%
Pshavy - 12.4%
Mokhevtsy - 12%
Mtiuly - 11.8%
Gudamakarians - 8.3%

Western Georgians Adjarians:
Adjarians Khulo - 15%
Adjarians of Batumi - 13.9%
Adjarians of Kobuleti 22.3%
Adjarians Kedi - 13%
Adjarians Gorjomi - 11.8%
Adjarians of Riketi - 5.1%
Adjarians of Shubani - 10%

Mountaineers of western Georgia Svans:
Lower Svans - 3.8%
Svans, Mestian Upper - 6.9%
Svans, Mestiskie Nizhnye - 11%

Mountaineers of the west of Racha-Lechkhumi:
Lechkhumi Tsagersky - 17.3%
Rachintsy foothills - 10.6%
Rachintsi mountain - 3.9%
Rachintsi Ambolaursky - 14%

[Impaler]

Are you YF129239?
https://i.ibb.co/hHfG89D/IMG-20240615-165751.jpg

yes, I am. What's the connection with the Chechens?

[Impaler]

Distance to: Father
0.08734237 Dagestani
0.08840688 Nakh_38
0.12678243 Koban
0.24715925 Turkic

[Leto]

Yes, I have.
In the Caucasus, lordship does not depend on steppe/northern European admixture. There are many groups that have no steppe admixture at all, but they are among the lightest in the Kakaz.

% light (blue and gray) eyes from the works of Abdushelishvili, Javkhishvili, Bunak, Levin and Debets.

Lordship? I think you wanted to say lightness ;)

So basically in most of the Caucasus it's rarely above 15% on average. Though there is no data on Dargins, Qumuks, Lezgins and Tabasarans. Surprisingly, the Svans have lowest percentage of all. Didn't you say you were half Svan yourself?

[Leto]

yes, I am. What's the connection with the Chechens?
Does rom next to the Scandinavian flags mean Romany? If yes, that must be a Romany lineage of Caucasian/West Asian origin, somehow they picked it up before reaching the Balkans.

[Frowning Man]

Lordship? I think you wanted to say lightness ;)

So basically in most of the Caucasus it's rarely above 15% on average. Though there is no data on Dargins, Qumuks, Lezgins and Tabasarans. Surprisingly, the Svans have lowest percentage of all. Didn't you say you were half Svan yourself?

Sorry, the translator let me down)
Well, I’m half Mingrelian, on my father’s side. Megrelians are more depigmented than Svans. And I wrote earlier that the Svans are the darkest in the west of Georgia, and in general the mountaineers are darker than the plains.

Yes, I don’t have detailed data on the Dargins, Lezgins, or Tabasarans.

[Frowning Man]

Lordship? I think you wanted to say lightness ;)

So basically in most of the Caucasus it's rarely above 15% on average. Though there is no data on Dargins, Qumuks, Lezgins and Tabasarans. Surprisingly, the Svans have lowest percentage of all. Didn't you say you were half Svan yourself?

In the old data from the Caucasus, when the population was not yet mixed with its neighbors, there was an interesting trend.
In the mountains, the lighter mountaineers were shorter, more frail and had no larger heads than the dark ones (brown-eyed). Not all, there are of course exceptions. But there is a tendency, if you compare pigmentation and growth data in the mountains, then the darker groups of highlanders have a very large head, wide face and are taller than the lighter highlanders.

On the plain, on the contrary, people of lighter or medium pigmentation are taller and larger, except for blue-eyed people. The tallest and largest were people with gray, light brown and green eyes. The shortest are blue-eyed and black-eyed.

Javakhishvili and, in my opinion, Pantyukhov noticed that blue-eyed Caucasians (in the mountains and on the plain) are more often (but not always) short with a medium head. There is always an exception.

[Leto]

In the old data from the Caucasus, when the population was not yet mixed with its neighbors, there was an interesting trend.
In the mountains, the lighter mountaineers were shorter, more frail and had no larger heads than the dark ones (brown-eyed). Not all, there are of course exceptions. But there is a tendency, if you compare pigmentation and growth data in the mountains, then the darker groups of highlanders have a very large head, wide face and are taller than the lighter highlanders.

On the plain, on the contrary, people of lighter or medium pigmentation are taller and larger, except for blue-eyed people. The tallest and largest were people with gray, light brown and green eyes. The shortest are blue-eyed and black-eyed.

Javakhishvili and, in my opinion, Pantyukhov noticed that blue-eyed Caucasians (in the mountains and on the plain) are more often (but not always) short with a medium head. There is always an exception.
That's an interesting observation. What's the average height in George?

[Frowning Man]

That's an interesting observation. What's the average height in George?

Don't know. There are no normal studies about the growth of Georgians; all the ones I came across were studies of the population of Georgia, including non-ethnically Georgian groups, and this is wrong. I can say for sure that the average height of young guys from the West of Georgia is higher than from the East of Georgia. I'm 191. I have 25 cousins, the lowest is 184, the rest are higher. 2/3 184-190, the rest 190+. I am now conducting research myself, finding out the height of ethnic Georgians from 15 to 30 years old. I am going to collect data from 2,000 Georgians and identify the average growth throughout Georgia and in each 16 regions. Now I have taken data from only 400 people.

[axlredneck]

A Chechen from the Merzhoy teip
https://i.ibb.co/6Pm4Cpr/IMG-20240622-184810.jpg

[axlredneck]

A Dagestani/Nakh Y-lineage found in Saint Stephen Basilica, Székesfehérvár, Hungary

https://i.ibb.co/5GB9JFG/IMG-20240622-190238.jpg

[Leto]

In the Caucasus, light does not depend on steppe/northern European admixture. There are many groups that have no steppe admixture at all, but they are among the lightest in the Kakaz.

What's also interesting is that in the Caucasus you can find both light and dark siblings in one family. Consider these Georgians, they are presumably Western Georgians but let's face it - the guy looks a bit black-assed, in Russia he certainly would be, his wife isn't particularly light either but their kid is quite light, at least at such a young age

https://i.ibb.co/p0j53Sh/img-1-1720217097158.jpg

[Frowning Man]

What's also interesting is that in the Caucasus you can find both light and dark siblings in one family. Consider these Georgians, they are presumably Western Georgians but let's face it - the guy looks a bit black-assed, in Russia he certainly would be, his wife isn't particularly light either but their kid is quite light, at least at such a young age

https://i.ibb.co/p0j53Sh/img-1-1720217097158.jpg


Well, maybe his grandfather had light pigmentation. For example me. My parents have a mixed shade of brown-green eyes in a ratio of 80 to 20. But my eyes are gray and I am noticeably lighter than my parents. Why? Because of my grandfather, who had very light pigmentation in his eyes and hair. I have cousins, there are three brothers in their family. All three have completely different pigmentation, one is very light (red), one is very dark, the last is something in between.

But as I said, pigmentation in the Caucasus is completely independent of steppe admixture. I threw off the numbers for % blue and gray eyes. There, the highest % of light eyes were shown by the Ando-Tsesi and the plain of Western Georgia - two completely opposite groups. The former have the largest steppe admixture and little CHG, the latter have the highest CHG and have no steppe at all.

For example, I have no steppe admixture at all and a ton of CHG, but for any people in the Caucasus (Georgians, Chechens, Dagestanis, Circassians, Ossetians and others) I have light pigmentation.

[Frowning Man]

What's also interesting is that in the Caucasus you can find both light and dark siblings in one family. Consider these Georgians, they are presumably Western Georgians but let's face it - the guy looks a bit black-assed, in Russia he certainly would be, his wife isn't particularly light either but their kid is quite light, at least at such a young age

https://i.ibb.co/p0j53Sh/img-1-1720217097158.jpg



Here I posted mass photographs of Caucasian communities from Moscow universities.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?170193-Are-Circassians-much-lighter-than-Georgians-or-bit-lighter-than-Georgians&p=7979209&viewfull=1#post7979209

[Leto]

Here I posted mass photographs of Caucasian communities from Moscow universities.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?170193-Are-Circassians-much-lighter-than-Georgians-or-bit-lighter-than-Georgians&p=7979209&viewfull=1#post7979209
Would you say Nakhs are lighter than Armenians on average?

[Frowning Man]

Would you say Nakhs are lighter than Armenians on average?

Unexpected question. I think you yourself know the answer to this. According to figures/studies, Nakhs have a higher percentage of depigmented representatives than Armenians.

[Leto]

Unexpected question. I think you yourself know the answer to this. According to figures/studies, Nakhs have a higher percentage of depigmented representatives than Armenians.
Nothing strange about the question :) I thought you had seen plenty of both Armenians and Chechens, therefore you might have a personal opinion about that based on observation. Though I think the studies are correct. Only Azerbaijanis are darker than armyashki. On the whole, I would say North Caucasians are more or less on par with Southern Europeans in terms of pigmentation. Especially groups such as Sicilians, Southern Italians, Cretan Greeks and other Greek islanders, Maltese, perhaps some Iberian groups, etc. The only difference is that North Caucasians typically have more Middle Eastern/West Asian faces compared to Southern Europeans.

[Frowning Man]

Nothing strange about the question :) I thought you had seen plenty of both Armenians and Chechens, therefore you might have a personal opinion about that based on observation. Though I think the studies are correct. Only Azerbaijanis are darker than armyashki. On the whole, I would say North Caucasians are more or less on par with Southern Europeans in terms of pigmentation. Especially groups such as Sicilians, Southern Italians, Cretan Greeks and other Greek islanders, Maltese, perhaps some Iberian groups, etc. The only difference is that North Caucasians typically have more Middle Eastern/West Asian faces compared to Southern Europeans.

If this is my personal opinion, then yes, Nakhs are noticeably lighter than Armenians. I saw a lot of Armenians; I saw the Nakhs the most among the North Caucasians, mostly Chechens, in total several thousand. But they are not as light as they like to describe them here.


I don’t know about the comparison with Southern Europe, I haven’t been to the countries of Southern Europe, so I can’t speculate. I only saw tourists who came to Moscow when the European Championship was held in Russia. Well, at most, the opinion of my Russian friends who were in the countries of Southern Europe and Georgia. Therefore, I can only make comparative arguments between Caucasians. But from those southern Europeans whom I saw as tourists and from what my friends told me when they were on vacation in Southern Europe and the photographs that were shown, I did not notice that they were lighter than the Georgians. Maybe I'm wrong. But again, confidently saying who is different in what way if you have not been to a country, in a region where the local population lives mono-ethnically, is idiocy. So I don't know.

According to studies, the highest numbers of depigmentation in the Caucasus were shown by the Ando-Tsez groups of mountainous Dagestan and the lowland groups of Western Georgia (Imeretians, Mingrelians and Gurians). And Western groups of Circassians. In fact, three completely opposite groups in terms of genetics.

[black hole]

There are North Caucasians who look like Southern Europeans, West Asians, North Europeans, Central and Eastern Europeans. But it is an individually thing. We have some N. Caucasus members on TA whom I would mistaken them for other ethnic groups if I did not know about their origins.