Where did the Irish get the extra Mediterranean since Bronze Age?

[Johnson Reed]

If you compare the Bronze Age Irish sample to the modern Irish sample, the modern Irish have more Mediterranean. Why? The Roman Empire never reached Ireland. Ireland is still less Mediterranean than the British are, so much for that stupid "Irish Iberian" nonsense from the Victorian age.

G25 scaled
Ireland_EBA.SG,0.1255847,0.1272797,0.0618477,0.063 308,0.03098,0.0191503,0.0053267,0.006769,-0.0022497,-0.001883,0.0002707,0.0082427,-0.0130327,-0.027983,0.033975,0.024529,0.000956,0.0075167,0.00 09217,0.011339,0.0088593,0.0093563,0.0003697,0.014 2187,0.005788
Ireland_Modern,0.133361,0.134098,0.061169,0.048864 ,0.037788,0.019352,0.003293,0.004713,0.003568,0.00 2927,-0.006971,0.00584,-0.014189,-0.014076,0.025935,0.005215,-0.011145,0.001894,0.000597,0.001776,0.005114,0.001 279,0.000293,0.014407,0.000661

Eurogenes K15
BronzeAgeIrish,38.97,32.96,12.49,9.62,3.18,1.17,0. 0,0.0,0.92,0.0,0.0,0.64,0.0,0.0,0.06
ModernIrish,36.98,30.43,9.52,8.77,7.65,4.21,0.15,0 .24,0.97,0.07,0.11,0.53,0.15,0.07,0.07

Eurogenes K13
BronzeAgeIrish,55.63,28.07,9.11,4.89,0.0,0.2,1.07, 0.0,0.04,0.8,0.0,0.0,0.2
ModernIrish,52.43,22.93,12.62,6.82,1.44,0.50,1.40, 0.16,0.28,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.13


Bronze Age Irish were 55% Steppe, 15.2% WHG, 29.8% EEF
Modern Irish are 50% Steppe, 14% WHG, and 36% EEF

The Irish are already genetically the Whitest people in the world, so it's cool to learn that they were once even lighter. I wonder what the Bronze Age Irish looked like. It would have been cool if Ireland had been able to maintain its Bronze Age genetics, while Britain and the rest of Europe got woggified with more EEF than they had in the Bronze Age (Balts, too, are about 6-7% more EEF than they were in the Bronze Age).

[Grace O'Malley]

I think it came via Britain who have extra France IA ancestry. Possibly a Celtic connection with that also.


Using qpAdm (Methods), most present-day Scottish, Welsh and Irish genomes can be modelled as receiving most or all of their ancestry from the British Bronze or Iron Age reference groups, with little or no continental contribution. By contrast, for all present-day English samples the simple two-way admixture model (England LIA + England EMA CNE) fails. By extending our model to a three-way with added France IA as a third component, we now obtain fitting models (Supplementary Fig. 5.11,5.21). We estimate that the ancestry of the present-day English ranges between 25% and 47% England EMA CNE-like, 11% and 57% England LIA-like and 14% and 43% France IA-like.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2#:~:text=We%20estimate%20that%20the%20ancestry,43 %25%20France%20IA%2Dlike.

[Ibericus]

It can also be a resurgence of EEF ancestry.
in the Bronze Age it is possible that there were still pockets of populations with high EEF that finally became absorbed into the Irish genetic pool

[cass]

I think the leptomorphic and dark-haired element may just be more attractive to women.

[J. Ketch]

Quite obviously from the people who made them Celtic speakers. To a much smaller degree later Norman and English influence too.

[Johnson Reed]

I think the leptomorphic and dark-haired element may just be more attractive to women.

Why, though? EEF were significantly shorter than WHG/Yamnaya men, to the point that some archeologists have confused EEF men for WHG/Yamnaya women and vice versa.

[cass]

Why, though? EEF were significantly shorter than WHG/Yamnaya men, to the point that some archeologists have confused EEF men for WHG/Yamnaya women and vice versa.


You have to ask northern women why they find Spanish or Italian soccer players more interesting. Maybe it's a matter of facial proportions.

[J. Ketch]

I think the leptomorphic and dark-haired element may just be more attractive to women.
Goes against the fact that Northern Europe has gotten much blonder since the Bronze Age (including men).


You have to ask northern women why they find Spanish or Italian soccer players more interesting. Maybe it's a matter of facial proportions.
You'd have to ask them if they do first, but irrelevant to this thread, the increase of the 'Mediterranean' element in Ireland came from other NW Europeans (primarily British Celts).

[cass]

Goes against the fact that Northern Europe has gotten much blonder since the Bronze Age (including men).


You'd have to ask them if they do first, but irrelevant to this thread, the increase of the 'Mediterranean' element in Ireland came from other NW Europeans (primarily British Celts).



I must withdraw my hasty thesis. I analyzed the structure of Sweden (which has a fairly stable population structure) over time and did not notice any statistically significant drift. The main factor of change are well-known population migrations.

Target: Swedish
Distance: 3.3273% / 0.03327261
49.0 Yamnaya
34.2 LBK
10.6 WHG
6.2 EHG


Target: Sweden_Viking
Distance: 3.0609% / 0.03060865
47.8 Yamnaya
34.8 LBK
11.0 WHG
6.4 EHG



Target: SWE_IA:RISE174___AD_545___Coverage_55.63%
Distance: 3.9504% / 0.03950381
51.0 Yamnaya
34.0 LBK
9.0 WHG
6.0 EHG


Target: SWE_BA:RISE175___BC_1283___Coverage_9.53%
Distance: 3.7533% / 0.03753312
47.2 Yamnaya
35.8 LBK
15.2 WHG
1.8 EHG



Target: SWE_LN
Distance: 2.4847% / 0.02484690
51.0 Yamnaya
32.8 LBK
16.2 WHG

Target: SWE_Battle_Axe
Distance: 1.7228% / 0.01722787
64.6 Yamnaya
27.2 LBK
7.8 WHG
0.4 EHG

Target: SWE_Megalithic_Ansarve
Distance: 1.2936% / 0.01293617
75.0 LBK
19.4 WHG
5.6 EHG


Target: SWG:SWE_Motala_HG
Distance: 3.1724% / 0.03172371
49.6 EHG
49.6 WHG
0.8 LBK

[Purple Panther]

Why, though? EEF were significantly shorter than WHG/Yamnaya men, to the point that some archeologists have confused EEF men for WHG/Yamnaya women and vice versa.

How could that be? They just have to look at the pelvic bones, even if it was like a comparison of the remains of a large Dutch woman and a small Vietnamese man.

[celticdragongod]

If you compare the Bronze Age Irish sample to the modern Irish sample, the modern Irish have more Mediterranean. Why? The Roman Empire never reached Ireland. Ireland is still less Mediterranean than the British are, so much for that stupid "Irish Iberian" nonsense from the Victorian age.

G25 scaled
Ireland_EBA.SG,0.1255847,0.1272797,0.0618477,0.063 308,0.03098,0.0191503,0.0053267,0.006769,-0.0022497,-0.001883,0.0002707,0.0082427,-0.0130327,-0.027983,0.033975,0.024529,0.000956,0.0075167,0.00 09217,0.011339,0.0088593,0.0093563,0.0003697,0.014 2187,0.005788
Ireland_Modern,0.133361,0.134098,0.061169,0.048864 ,0.037788,0.019352,0.003293,0.004713,0.003568,0.00 2927,-0.006971,0.00584,-0.014189,-0.014076,0.025935,0.005215,-0.011145,0.001894,0.000597,0.001776,0.005114,0.001 279,0.000293,0.014407,0.000661

Eurogenes K15
BronzeAgeIrish,38.97,32.96,12.49,9.62,3.18,1.17,0. 0,0.0,0.92,0.0,0.0,0.64,0.0,0.0,0.06
ModernIrish,36.98,30.43,9.52,8.77,7.65,4.21,0.15,0 .24,0.97,0.07,0.11,0.53,0.15,0.07,0.07

Eurogenes K13
BronzeAgeIrish,55.63,28.07,9.11,4.89,0.0,0.2,1.07, 0.0,0.04,0.8,0.0,0.0,0.2
ModernIrish,52.43,22.93,12.62,6.82,1.44,0.50,1.40, 0.16,0.28,0.80,0.29,0.14,0.13


Bronze Age Irish were 55% Steppe, 15.2% WHG, 29.8% EEF
Modern Irish are 50% Steppe, 14% WHG, and 36% EEF

The Irish are already genetically the Whitest people in the world, so it's cool to learn that they were once even lighter. I wonder what the Bronze Age Irish looked like. It would have been cool if Ireland had been able to maintain its Bronze Age genetics, while Britain and the rest of Europe got woggified with more EEF than they had in the Bronze Age (Balts, too, are about 6-7% more EEF than they were in the Bronze Age).

It is probably the result of genetic drift.

[ScandinavianCelt]

Langobards, perhaps

[Flashball]

Correction: Where did the Irish get the extra EEF since Bronze Age?****

Dumbass.

Answer: French master race, Gaulish.

Mediterraneans> Levant, North Africa, etc.