Does anyone have some autosomal sample from rural central-west Bulgaria?

[Psycho]

God bless you and good night, ladies and gentlemen. If anyone has autosomal samples from central-western Bulgaria (Shopluk), could you post it there? Kyustendil, Pernik and Sofia provinces, without Sofia city btw.

[ScandinavianCelt]

God bless you and good night, ladies and gentlemen. If anyone has autosomal samples from central-western Bulgaria (Shopluk), could you post it there? Kyustendil, Pernik and Sofia provinces, without Sofia city btw.

Contact Ancestry and see if they could link you to someone

[hazmatnik]

I used to have some on Gedmatch from Rayanovtsi and if i remember some other places around Tran and Dragoman and dont remember where else. I deleted all kits from that site five months ago but can reupload, just remind me august 1st, thats when i will be back home from work and have access to PC, its not practical for me to do all those stuff on phone.

[Psycho]

Contact Ancestry and see if they could link you to someone

Thank you :)

[Psycho]

I used to have some on Gedmatch from Rayanovtsi and if i remember some other places around Tran and Dragoman and dont remember where else. I deleted all kits from that site five months ago but can reupload, just remind me august 1st, thats when i will be back home from work and have access to PC, its not practical for me to do all those stuff on phone.

Oh okay, thank you
My parents are from Tran btw :D

[hazmatnik]

Oh okay, thank you
My parents are from Tran btw :D

I know, you have some ancestry from same village my maternal grandpa ancestors are from(Vuči Del).

[Psycho]

I know, you have some ancestry from same village my maternal grandpa ancestors are from(Vuči Del).

Interesting, indeed.
Do you roughly remember the ratio of Slavic, Paleo-Balkan and Turkic blood in those Tran and Dragoman samples?

[hazmatnik]

Interesting, indeed.
Do you roughly remember the ratio of Slavic, Paleo-Balkan and Turkic blood in those Tran and Dragoman samples?

Ehhh i cant remember what i did yesterday sometimes, yet alone such trivias.

[Psycho]

Ehhh i cant remember what i did yesterday sometimes, yet alone such trivias.

LOL xD
Still, do you remember which one is first?

[hazmatnik]

LOL xD
Still, do you remember which one is first?

Nope because in order to do that on Gedmatch you have to put their kit numbers and run couple of calculators, K13 being most popular. For me was important to know where they are from, for purposes of genealogical investigation.

Looking at Ancestry and 23andme matches from the area, most of them just get Balkan (almost always over 70%) and/or EE and Anatolian in smaller percentages.

[Psycho]

Nope because in order to do that on Gedmatch you have to put their kit numbers and run couple of calculators, K13 being most popular. For me was important to know where they are from, for purposes of genealogical investigation.

Looking at Ancestry and 23andme matches from the area, most of them just get Balkan (almost always over 70%) and/or EE and Anatolian in smaller percentages.
What about Turkic DNA there?
Are Bulgarians from Shopluk more Turkic than rest of Bulgaria?

[Psycho]

Bump

[hazmatnik]

What about Turkic DNA there?
Are Bulgarians from Shopluk more Turkic than rest of Bulgaria?

They dont show any traces of Turkic ancestry on 23andme and AncestryDNA.
For that to see you need those Gedmatch calculators.

[Psycho]

They dont show any traces of Turkic ancestry on 23andme and AncestryDNA.
For that to see you need those Gedmatch calculators.

Sad, I wish we had more ubermensch Turan blood

[hazmatnik]

Sad, I wish we had more ubermensch Turan blood

Nope, but there are some pretty rare Y haplogroups and subclades for Balkan among matches from Tran and surroundings.
Looks like those remote areas were some sort of refugium for many and international fuck fest!

[Psycho]

Nope, but there are some pretty rare Y haplogroups and subclades for Balkan among matches from Tran and surroundings.
Looks like those remote areas were some sort of refugium for many and international fuck fest!

I guess so, tho still DNA is mostly from Thracian tribes and Proto-Bulgars

[hazmatnik]

I guess so, tho still DNA is mostly from Thracian tribes and Proto-Bulgars

Proto-Bulgars left neglible genetic impact.

[Psycho]

Proto-Bulgars left neglible genetic impact.

What about Pechenegs, that some Bulgarians call "Proto-Shopi"

[hazmatnik]

What about Pechenegs, that some Bulgarians call "Proto-Shopi"

I heard that story, as well as Kuman story, there are some toponyms pointing toward them like Pecenjevce near Leskovac, but there is nothing in genetics to support that.
And if you look at those Avar samples (and we have dozen of Avar DNK tested in last two years) many of them were just avarised locals with Greek-like autosomal genetics with only traces of Asian genetic if any.
Could be also the case with Kumans and Pecenegs and thats exactly what happened with Bulgars. They were not so numerous to have some big impact on local DNA .

[Psycho]

I heard that story, as well as Kuman story, there are some toponyms pointing toward them like Pecenjevce near Leskovac, but there is nothing in genetics to support that.
And if you look at those Avar samples (and we have dozen of Avar DNK tested in last two years) many of them were just avarised locals with Greek-like autosomal genetics with only traces of Asian genetic if any.
Could be also the case with Kumans and Pecenegs and thats exactly what happened with Bulgars. They were not so numerous to have some big impact on local DNA .

Interesting
Btw Pechenegs and Cumans were Orthodox Christians, so could they be some type of Proto-Bulgars?

[hazmatnik]

Interesting
Btw Pechenegs and Cumans were Orthodox Christians, so could they be some type of Proto-Bulgars?

I dont have opinion about that, since i didnt investigate them, just superficially.

[Psycho]

I dont have opinion about that, since i didnt investigate them, just superficially.

In your opinion, where in Bulgaria could east Asian ancestry be strongest?

[hazmatnik]

In your opinion, where in Bulgaria could east Asian ancestry be strongest?

IDK man, i didnt investigate Bulgaria past the area my family claims ancestry (Dupnitsa - Blagoevgrad and Znepole).
Zivko Vojnikov wrote some books about genetics of Bulgarians, maybe you should try that.

[djipon]

In your opinion, where in Bulgaria could east Asian ancestry be strongest?

Bulgarians are so intermixed between themselves and move so much inside the country, that any East Asian ancestry would be spread evenly.

[Psycho]

Bulgarians are so intermixed between themselves and move so much inside the country, that any East Asian ancestry would be spread evenly.

I agree, but I still believe that western and northern Bulgarians have more Turkic DNA than Macedonians or Thracians

[djipon]

I agree, but I still believe that western and northern Bulgarians have more Turkic DNA than Macedonians or Thracians

Considering probably half the population of Thrace region has ancestors from nowadays Turkey/Greece - maybe exactly the opposite.

[hazmatnik]

I agree, but I still believe that western and northern Bulgarians have more Turkic DNA than Macedonians or Thracians

Why would western Bulgarians have elevated Turkic DNA? Many of them are actually from further SW as far away as Albania, escaping Muslim terror in XVII and XVIII century?
Thats why you still have small oasis of Bulgarians in Albania.
I used to have saved pics from some book about those migrations but i cant find them now.

[Psycho]

Why would western Bulgarians have elevated Turkic DNA? Many of them are actually from further SW as far away as Albania, escaping Muslim terror in XVII and XVIII century?
Thats why you still have small oasis of Bulgarians in Albania.
I used to have saved pics from some book about those migrations but i cant find them now.

I speak about native Shopi (like me) who are big headed and descendants of Tzopoi Pechenegs.
I know about Bulgarians from Albania btw

[Psycho]

Considering probably half the population of Thrace region has ancestors from nowadays Turkey/Greece - maybe exactly the opposite.

Unlikely, but who knows

[hazmatnik]

I speak about native Shopi (like me) who are big headed and descendants of Tzopoi Pechenegs.
I know about Bulgarians from Albania btw

Good for you if you know you are native there since XVI century or even further back in time, i cant figure out anything before 1880. about that part of my ancestry, due to lack of censuses :rolleyes:

[Psycho]

Good for you if you know you are native there since XVI century or even further back in time, i cant figure out anything before 1880. about that part of my ancestry, due to lack of censuses :rolleyes:

xD
I am not really sure am I, but would love to be Pecheneg, Idk why I have such Turan fetish, maybe because of my Turkish friends.

[hazmatnik]

xD
I am not really sure am I, but would love to be Pecheneg, Idk why I have such Turan fetish, maybe because of my Turkish friends.

Well maybe your fantasy should stay fantasy since there are no evidences to back it up :D

[Psycho]

Well maybe your fantasy should stay fantasy since there are no evidences to back it up :D

Only God knows, my dear mate

[hazmatnik]

Only God knows, my dear mate

You should try DNA test to eliminate any non-divine possibility.

[Psycho]

I will

[djipon]

Bro, I highly doubt nowadays people from Shopluk region have anything to do with the Pechenegs. If any traces, they would be minimal, not more than other Bulgarians would have. Only because you are big headed, doesn't mean anything, really. Do an autosomal test, at least. Then you go from there...

[Psycho]

Bro, I highly doubt nowadays people from Shopluk region have anything to do with the Pechenegs. If any traces, they would be minimal, not more than other Bulgarians would have. Only because you are big headed, doesn't mean anything, really. Do an autosomal test, at least. Then you go from there...

Idk bro, maybe
Big heads of Bulgarians of Shopluk (central-western Bulgaria) could be due to fact that Shopi Bulgarians are highlanders (Rila, western Stara Planina, Vitosha, Ruy, Besna Kobila, Osogovo, Milevska planina...)
Tho Thracians also have Rodopite or Stara Planina yet are mainly meso and dolichocephalic from my expirience
Doesn't mean that Bulgarians from central-western Bulgaria are Pechenegs, but still there is possibility.

[djipon]

Idk bro, maybe
Big heads of Bulgarians of Shopluk (central-western Bulgaria) could be due to fact that Shopi Bulgarians are highlanders (Rila, western Stara Planina, Vitosha, Ruy, Besna Kobila, Osogovo, Milevska planina...)
Tho Thracians also have Rodopite or Stara Planina yet are mainly meso and dolichocephalic from my expirience
Doesn't mean that Bulgarians from central-western Bulgaria are Pechenegs, but still there is possibility.

I don't think that's how things work... xD If that was the case, Swiss people would've had balloons for heads : )

[Psycho]

I don't think that's how things work... xD If that was the case, Swiss people would've had balloons for heads : )

That's exactly reason why I think that Shopi are Pechenegs xD

[hazmatnik]

That's exactly reason why I think that Shopi are Pechenegs xD

Will be home tomorrow, will post my Shopluk matches Y haplogroups and some K13 results from Gedmatch.

[Psycho]

Will be home tomorrow, will post my Shopluk matches Y haplogroups and some K13 results from Gedmatch.

Good bro.
I would thumbs up you, but I can not, due to fact that my thumbs up button is as gray as it can be

[Psycho]

Will be home tomorrow, will post my Shopluk matches Y haplogroups and some K13 results from Gedmatch.

Bump

[Psycho]

I don't think that's how things work... xD If that was the case, Swiss people would've had balloons for heads : )

What I can not understand is also, why are north-west Bulgarians most northern shifted Bulgarians. I know that Danube Plain has quite a few of Romanian settlers, Vidin had some Serbian and Russian settlers, Chiprovtsi had some Croatian settlers (could also be Catholicized local Bulgarians), but area of north-west Bulgaria, (basically area between Iskar and Vrashka Chuka and between Stara Planina and Danube) is 90%+ Bulgarian, and local Bulgarians of north-west are mainly Torlaks (from Belogradchik or Berkovitsa), Balkandjii (from Teteven or Troyan) as well as some settlers from Aegean Macedonia and Thrace, so them being any different from other Bulgarians make zero sense to me.

[djipon]

Well, it seems a bit reasonable that the northern you get, the northern you are.

[hazmatnik]

Ok young man, regarding Y haplogroups, i will just say one thing to save time and go to the point.

Out of all matches from Bulgaria, only one has Y hg which is very very obscure but could be related to some turkic or even mongolian expansion. That guy last name is Tanev and im not even sure if he is from Sopluk, since he only left Sofia as place of origin for all of his ancestors, and he has very rare N-L731 Y Hg. As you can see it occurs mostly in China but there is European branch too, thats why its very hard to say how it ended up here.

https://i.postimg.cc/qBXzSy7k/tanev.jpg (https://postimg.cc/pyrWn987)

Other matches have pretty common Y HGs for Balkan, except one guy from Trn has Roma H-M2914 and another one has R-Z209 which is very common in W Europe but almost absent in Balkans.

I will share K13 tomorrow, had to reupload raws to Gedmatch since i deleted them all and it takes some time to calculate matches again.

[Psycho]

Ok young man, regarding Y haplogroups, i will just say one thing to save time and go to the point.

Out of all matches from Bulgaria, only one has Y hg which is very very obscure but could be related to some turkic or even mongolian expansion. That guy last name is Tanev and im not even sure if he is from Sopluk, since he only left Sofia as place of origin for all of his ancestors, and he has very rare N-L731 Y Hg. As you can see it occurs mostly in China but there is European branch too, thats why its very hard to say how it ended up here.

https://i.postimg.cc/qBXzSy7k/tanev.jpg (https://postimg.cc/pyrWn987)

Other matches have pretty common Y HGs for Balkan, except one guy from Trn has Roma H-M2914 and another one has R-Z209 which is very common in W Europe but almost absent in Balkans.

I will share K13 tomorrow, had to reupload raws to Gedmatch since i deleted them all and it takes some time to calculate matches again.

Tran has lot of Gypsies, so he likely is not Bulgarian,

[Psycho]

Well, it seems a bit reasonable that the northern you get, the northern you are.

Make sense, I guess

[hazmatnik]

Family from Rayanovtsi, my grandpa closest matches, K13 results:

Population
North_Atlantic 16.02 Pct
Baltic 29.23 Pct
West_Med 18.86 Pct
West_Asian 10.87 Pct
East_Med 19.48 Pct
Red_Sea 2.37 Pct
South_Asian 0.36 Pct
East_Asian 1.51 Pct
Siberian 0.64 Pct
Amerindian 0.11 Pct
Oceanian 0.39 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.16 Pc

North_Atlantic 15.92 Pct
Baltic 24.6 Pct
West_Med 20.12 Pct
West_Asian 13.82 Pct
East_Med 21.64 Pct
Red_Sea 0.44 Pct
South_Asian 0.64 Pct
East_Asian 0.95 Pct
Siberian 0.7 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.57 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.61 Pc

North_Atlantic 23.15 Pct
Baltic 29.05 Pct
West_Med 17.41 Pct
West_Asian 11.17 Pct
East_Med 15.09 Pct
Red_Sea 1.75 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.55 Pct
Siberian 0.62 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 0.47 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 24.5 Pct
Baltic 28.01 Pct
West_Med 16.5 Pct
West_Asian 8 Pct
East_Med 19.23 Pct
Red_Sea 2.16 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.76 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.69 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -



Their results doesnt show any elevated Turkic heritage.

[hazmatnik]

And my maternal grandpa Y, no signs of Turkic or even Slavic ancestry but most likely local Balkanites:

https://i.postimg.cc/65Zs6PzC/Untitled.jpg (https://postimg.cc/nCnS00yL)

[Psycho]

Family from Rayanovtsi, my grandpa closest matches, K13 results:

Population
North_Atlantic 16.02 Pct
Baltic 29.23 Pct
West_Med 18.86 Pct
West_Asian 10.87 Pct
East_Med 19.48 Pct
Red_Sea 2.37 Pct
South_Asian 0.36 Pct
East_Asian 1.51 Pct
Siberian 0.64 Pct
Amerindian 0.11 Pct
Oceanian 0.39 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.16 Pc

North_Atlantic 15.92 Pct
Baltic 24.6 Pct
West_Med 20.12 Pct
West_Asian 13.82 Pct
East_Med 21.64 Pct
Red_Sea 0.44 Pct
South_Asian 0.64 Pct
East_Asian 0.95 Pct
Siberian 0.7 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.57 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.61 Pc

North_Atlantic 23.15 Pct
Baltic 29.05 Pct
West_Med 17.41 Pct
West_Asian 11.17 Pct
East_Med 15.09 Pct
Red_Sea 1.75 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.55 Pct
Siberian 0.62 Pct
Amerindian 0.73 Pct
Oceanian 0.47 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 24.5 Pct
Baltic 28.01 Pct
West_Med 16.5 Pct
West_Asian 8 Pct
East_Med 19.23 Pct
Red_Sea 2.16 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.76 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.69 Pct
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -



Their results doesnt show any elevated Turkic heritage.

Interesting. They have barely any exotic DNA.

[Psycho]

And my maternal grandpa Y, no signs of Turkic or even Slavic ancestry but most likely local Balkanites:

https://i.postimg.cc/65Zs6PzC/Untitled.jpg (https://postimg.cc/nCnS00yL)

Cool!
And thank you!