Why is Scandinavia so irreligious?

[Joe McCarthy]

Looking over global church attendance rates I was struck by how low the figures are in Scandinavia (5 percent or lower). The only really comparable lows are found in Russia (which is even lower) or ex-Soviet republics like Ukraine, Belarus, or Armenia which are slightly higher. Serbia also rates low, but these are somewhat understandable as they were ruled by communists. Even so, certain ex-Marxist states like Poland or Romania have much higher rates than Scandinavia. Even China has a slightly higher rate. In fact, the Netherlands, which many see as the epitome of secularism, has a church attendance rate seven times higher than Scandinavia.

Thoughts?

[TheBorrebyViking]

People just don't care up there.

[Logan]

Pragmatism. ;)

[leisitox]

And that is bad for you or just wondering and asking opinions?

[Pallantides]

Because we are young, beautiful and running free.

[Joe McCarthy]

And that is bad for you or just wondering and asking opinions?

Bad, but I'm unsure of the reason myself (though I have a pretty good idea) so I'm asking for opinions.

[GeistFaust]

Its tough to say it depends on how you interpret irreligious. I don't see them as any irreligious then the loud, forceful, and fanatical religious people in Europe. They have liberal tendencies which people usually relate with being Anti-Religious in many conservative circles. But then again I don't think there is anything to back this up consistently.


Hegel who was a rather religious philosopher said that the Northern Countries in Europe have never truly converted from their pagan viewpoints. This is because it just did not conform with their national spirit and there were many times when Germanic peoples were converted to Christianity, but maintained their Pagan rituals and perspectives of reality.


Except they did so under a Christianized spirit. I think its not always easy to define that which is religious because we have to take into account many factors which are not always calculable. I would not say Scandinavians are irreligious they just have a different perspective of religious behaviors and mannerisms.

[Germanicus]

Most Scandinavians are classed as Heathens: the dictionary description of a Heathen is that they do not believe in the main religions of the worlds;that being christianity, Catholism, Islam.
Myself, i gave up on my christian upbringing beliefs when i was 14.

[Styggnacke]

I can only speak for Sweden, but I have my own theory:

Sweden was, as you probably know, Catholic (anachronistic term, but you get the point) until the Reformation in 1529. Now it became a state church and the monarchy fully controlled it. Not so much changed until the democratization of Sweden when politicians instead seized the power of the church. Just as everything else in the Swedish society, the Swedish church changed drastically and now when the church is as marxist as the rest of our society, the Swedish church became pointless .

That's my thoughts at 02.09 am. Good night!

[Styggnacke]

Most Scandinavians are classed as Heathens: the dictionary description of a Heathen is that they do not believe in the main religions of the worlds;that being christianity, Catholism, Islam.
Myself, i gave up on my christian upbringing beliefs when i was 14.
Nah, most Swedes are still members of the church and therefore classed as Lutherans.

[SilverKnight]

Maybe its simply becuase they have a darn good sense of reality.

[Styggnacke]

I have to point out that the reason why so many Swedes still are members of the church is because before 1996, every newborn automatically became members of the church. Even though most people aren't religious and maybe visits chruch twice a year, people are just too lazy to do the paper work required to leave the church.

I myself is not religious and never have been, even though that I went to Sunday school 'til I was eight and was confirmed. But I'm planning to leave the church. I wouldn't have any problem being member and paying some extra tax money to the church if it was just a normal church. But the Swedish church today think it's more important to hide illegal immigrants from the state, promote sinful behaviour as homosexuality etc. I don't want to support that, and therefore I will leave the church.

[Joe McCarthy]

Maybe its simply becuase they have a darn good sense of reality.

Or perhaps not:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/07/racists-speak-swedish.html

From my outsider perspective reading stories of multicultural madness out of Sweden is like a visit to an asylum. The ruling mandarins of that country are not dealing in 'reality' but utopian fairy tales.

[Pallantides]

The US have far more multicultural madness than Scandinavia.

[Joe McCarthy]

The US have far more multicultural madness than Scandinavia.

More than Sweden?

Quite.

[GeistFaust]

Or perhaps not:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/07/racists-speak-swedish.html

From my outsider perspective reading stories of multicultural madness out of Sweden is like a visit to an asylum. The ruling mandarins of that country are not dealing in 'reality' but utopian fairy tales.


I don't think its fair to say that just because they are a multi-cultural madhouse that this correlates to their irreligious behavior. Look at the Nazi regime they were not highly tolerable of multi-cultural activity yet they were not so religiously tolerant.

There have been plenty of religiously oriented cultures especially in the Eastern parts of the world that largely are resistant of multi-culturalism.

I think if you try to correlate the relation between two different mentalities over a broader area and scope of time that you will find many inconsistencies. Its not always nearly as black and white when it comes to political and religious mentalities that coincide in a certain region.

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't think its fair to say that just because they are a multi-cultural madhouse that this correlates to their irreligious behavior.

I'm not saying it does. What I am contesting is the idea that Scandinavia is especially rooted in 'reality'.

That being said, I think it's fair to say that more Christian societies will have more immunity to the inflow of Muslims, but again, that wasn't the point I was making.

[Kacca]

because they are socialists

[SilverKnight]

Or perhaps not:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/07/racists-speak-swedish.html

From my outsider perspective reading stories of multicultural madness out of Sweden is like a visit to an asylum. The ruling mandarins of that country are not dealing in 'reality' but utopian fairy tales.

Yep, multiculturalism is a hard reality for some. But don't blame Atheists for it (pleaseeee). There are heavily non-religious states in the US like. ex Vermont and it's far from being multicultural (yes you will see blacks, hispanic americans, asians here and there but not as much).

I have more issues to be concerned about like crime, lack of quality education for my kids and such..

[Supreme American]

I myself is not religious and never have been, even though that I went to Sunday school 'til I was eight and was confirmed. But I'm planning to leave the church. I wouldn't have any problem being member and paying some extra tax money to the church if it was just a normal church. But the Swedish church today think it's more important to hide illegal immigrants from the state, promote sinful behaviour as homosexuality etc. I don't want to support that, and therefore I will leave the church.

This is one of the big reasons I do not attend church. All too often, and this is with nearly zero exception, churches bend their theology to match the current times to keep the pews and coffers full. This to me renders religion worthless, as simply a product for sale, to affirm lifestyles and beliefs people bring into the church rather than serve as something righteous for people to strive to emulate. I guess you could say that church dogma is outside-coming-in instead of inside-going-out. Who wants to follow the commandments of men? You don't need a house of worship to do that, just turn on a television.

[Drawing-slim]

Maybe the rest of european ethnicitys should be more like them.
Scandinavians seem to be proud of their ethnicity and put little to no importance on religion, they keep an open mind, they value human life and dont get into relious wars.
as the result they place top countries of human cuality life every year.

[Joe McCarthy]

Maybe the rest of european ethnicitys should be more like them.
Scandinavians seem to be proud of their ethnicity and put little to no importance on religion, they keep an open mind, they value human life and dont get into relious wars.
as the result they place top countries of human cuality life every year.

Not too many European countries do get involved in religious wars nowadays. During the Thirty Years War though Sweden was a major participant.

How religious are Serbs even? Serbia has a church attendance rate of 7 percent, not much higher than Scandinavia, yet got embroiled in major wars. Irreligious countries like Estonia and Armenia are also pretty poor.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Not too many European countries do get involved in religious wars nowadays. During the Thirty Years War though Sweden was a major participant.

How religious are Serbs even? Serbia has a church attendance rate of 7 percent, not much higher than Scandinavia, yet got embroiled in major wars. Irreligious countries like Estonia and Armenia are also pretty poor.

Yet the Nordic countries are pretty rich. I'm irreligious and I don't hate Christianity, so I might be an exception, but I am fairly deeply based in Morals. What about Pagans, would you be fine if they were Norse pagans again?

[Drawing-slim]

Not too many European countries do get involved in religious wars nowadays. During the Thirty Years War though Sweden was a major participant.

How religious are Serbia even? Serbia has a church attendance rate of 7 percent, not much higher than Scandinavia, yet got embroiled in major wars. Irreligious countries like Estonia and Armenia are also pretty poor.I dont know about the serbs, with an exeption of mymy and a few here and there, they mostly seem to be so much of orthodox "worriors" here and eager to wipe us "albanian islamic torrorists" out of this planet:rolleyes::D

[Padre Organtino]

The better question is - why's US so religious? There are many reasons why Nordic countries are not into religion with the two primary being:

1.High quality of life means they don't really need comfort from religion
2.High level of education translates into being able to question any dogma including the religious one

[Joe McCarthy]

The better question is - why's US so religious? There are many reasons why Nordic countries are not into religion with the two primary being:

1.High quality of life means they don't really need comfort from religion
2.High level of education translates into being able to question any dogma including the religious one

Scandinavia may be especially irreligious because it was never deeply Christian in the first place. They were later comers in converting. Much of early Christian Europe and the non-European parts of the Roman Empire saw the Norse pagans as alien and a people apart. It was a different world to them.

The US is religious because its early settlers were zealous religionists who left in protest over a lukewarm, ceremonial form of religion existent in England. Our national history, from its inception, is immersed in religious fanaticism, some might say.

[Padre Organtino]

Scandinavia may be especially irreligious because it was never deeply Christian in the first place. They were later comers in converting. Much of early Christian Europe and the non-European parts of the Roman Empire saw the Norse pagans as alien and a people apart. It was a different world to them.

The US is religious because its early settlers were zealous religionists who left in protest over a lukewarm, ceremonial form of religion existent in England. Our national history, from its inception, is immersed in religious fanaticism, some might say.

That's a plausible explanation but it fails to address the fact that French who were undoubtedly among the most strongest supporters of Christianity in Europe are now almost completely secular. It also does not explain why these countries are now irreligious while some freshly converted Africans or Philippinos demonstrate strong religious fervour.

It's not quite true with US. I apologize for not responding to your comment on Founding Fathers in due time but they were mostly deists.

[Joe McCarthy]

That's a plausible explanation but it fails to address the fact that French who were undoubtedly among the most strongest supporters of Christianity in Europe are now almost completely secular.

Even France has a church attendance rate four times higher than Scandinavia.


It's not quite true with US. I apologize for not responding to your comment on Founding Fathers in due time but they were mostly deists.

You could count the deists on one hand easily. You might look into the religious affiliation of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. You'll find that the overwhelming majority were Protestants.

[Contra Mundum]

Higher IQs, higher standard of living, better educated=less religious

[Joe McCarthy]

Higher IQs, higher standard of living, better educated=less religious

There are comparatively more religious countries that are a match for Scandinavia in those areas.

Conversely, a lot of the former communist states are very irreligious and yet rate comparatively poorly in those things you mention - more poorly than some more religious countries.

[TheBorrebyViking]

It's just a choice really. Don't forget, Anglo-Saxons were also once Pagans.

[Hurrem sultana]

Even France has a church attendance rate four times higher than Scandinavia.



You could count the deists on one hand easily. You might look into the religious affiliation of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. You'll find that the overwhelming majority were Protestants.

French people are more atheist than the swedes according to different polls,i think they are somehow equal there

the only religious countries in western europea are italy and spain,all the others are irreligious and don't give a damn

[Hurrem sultana]

the Balkans are also very irreligious,we just tend to mix religion with nationalism,,and since nationalism is sooo strong in the balkans to an outsider it appears like we are "so religious"

a serb will wear the cross and talk about protecting the christian identity while his most used words are religious cursing(serbian curses are among the worst in world, lol,and they are all about religion)

[Joe McCarthy]

[QUOTE=Anthraxinsoup;63534 What about Pagans, would you be fine if they were Norse pagans again?[/QUOTE]

What we do know of Germanic paganism strikes me as primitive, and most of it has been lost or destroyed. Added to that is the experience of many centuries of Christianity which has left an indelible imprint even on the Norse. As they say, you can't go home again... And as an ex-Odinist friend of mine put it, dabbling in the old ways is akin to making a religion out of Star Wars.

[Padre Organtino]

That's also true for Caucasus(though it's not Europe). Religion there for people is just another way to manifest nationalism. The only religious regions there are Georgia and Dagestan.

[Absinthe]

Higher IQs, higher standard of living, better educated=less religious
That.

Plus, no wars for the last century or so.

[TheBorrebyViking]

What we do know of Germanic paganism strikes me as primitive, and most of it has been lost or destroyed. Added to that is the experience of many centuries of Christianity which has left an indelible imprint even on the Norse. As they say, you can't go home again... And as an ex-Odinist friend of mine put it, dabbling in the old ways is akin to making a religion out of Star Wars.

I'm an atheist who takes my Morals from the old ways, but even now a lot of Europeans still do that.

[Hurrem sultana]

That's also true for Caucasus(though it's not Europe). Religion there for people is just another way to manifest nationalism. The only religious regions there are Georgia and Dagestan.


really? i got somehow the impression the armenians and chechens are religious

[Hurrem sultana]

Conversely, a lot of the former communist states are very irreligious and yet rate comparatively poorly in those things you mention - more poorly than some more religious countries.


tell me some religious western european countries(except italy,spain,portugal)??

there are no

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Looking over global church attendance rates I was struck by how low the figures are in Scandinavia (5 percent or lower).

Thoughts?

We called the bluff. We don't need that shit. Religion is mythology, mythology is religion. Neither gives answers nor guidance. Both are metaphores for exceptional happenings. Both reflect history.We need our history.

We are pragmatic peoples and certain things are deep rooted in our back bones. Religion is a form of mental slavery and most of us are just too individual and free spirited to accept religious restrictions. Call it the Nordic spirit or whatever.
Religious people are, with very few exceptions, hypocritical people and we are simply too honest and have a much stronger sense for what really is righteous, without applying religious justifications. Our high awareness of reality does not allow us to be blinded by mumbo jumbo.

Scandianvians, Finnics and Balts were among the last people to be christianized and we retained a good amount of pre-christian rites, beliefs and superstitions which we applied whenever necessary. The most loved get togethers today that bring some form "spiritualism" with them are the summer-, winter-, spring- and autumn solstices.
We know them today as fake Christian celebrations midsummer (St. John), Christmas (Jesus), Walburgis and All saints or St. Michaels day celebrations.

I celebrate Christmas for it's a pre christian tradition. I stripped it from all Christian connotations and give it a higher meaning; The cycle continues, the days will be longer and the apricity promises a new season of growth.

That's what my ancestors believed in. Not in a man on a donkey in a far away desert.

[Joe McCarthy]

tell me some religious western european countries(except italy,spain,portugal)??

there are no

Well, take Britain and the Netherlands - two affluent Western democracies associated with secularism. Both have higher church attendance rates than, say, Serbia, Croatia, or Romania.

[Contra Mundum]

a serb will wear the cross and talk about protecting the christian identity while his most used words are religious cursing(serbian curses are among the worst in world, lol,and they are all about religion)

Sounds a lot like American evangelical Christians. Not so much the cursing, but the hypocrisy.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Well, take Britain and the Netherlands - two affluent Western democracies associated with secularism. Both have higher church attendance rates than, say, Serbia, Croatia, or Romania.

Not going to church doesn't mean you are religious. Deathbed Catholics for instance. Irish Catholics here in America do it a lot too. They will go to church at young ages, stop going when 20-40s then start going again when old or dying.

[Padre Organtino]

really? i got somehow the impression the armenians and chechens are religious

They're not actually. Everyone who travels there notes that Armenians seldom visit churches and they don't have massive christian holiday celebrations unlike Georgians. Christianity for them is mostly just a marker symbolizing that they sort of belong to civilized world and are different from certain neighbours.:rolleyes:

As for Chechens - they were not very religious historically. This islamism of theirs is a rather recent trend.

[Ouistreham]

Even France has a church attendance rate four times higher than Scandinavia.

Absolutely wrong. Church attendance and belief in God are even lower in France.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-10-europe-religion-cover_x.htm


During the Thirty Years War though Sweden was a major participant.

Probably is it just the reason why Sweden (and France) are so irreligious.

Sweden took part to that war in an attempt to build an Empire covering the whole Baltic region and the Lutheran part of Germany.

France, though being nominally Catholic, entered that war on the Protestant side.

Thus both nations made it clear that religion was nothing but a political tool and an excuse for military power. This representation has remained deeply ingrained in their national psyche.


the only religious countries in western europea are italy and spain

And Ireland.

In Italy, Spain and Ireland, Catholicism is largely seen as an integral part of the national identity.

[Joe McCarthy]

Not going to church doesn't mean you are religious. Deathbed Catholics for instance. Irish Catholics here in America do it a lot too. They will go to church at young ages, stop going when 20-40s then start going again when old or dying.

Religion surveys are somewhat unreliable, but on balance people that go to church are going to be more religious than those that don't. Plus the higher attendance rates make sense of what we know of populations. For example, Ireland has a church attendance rate of over 80 percent, which is predictable if one is familiar with the Irish people.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Religion surveys are somewhat unreliable, but on balance people that go to church are going to be more religious than those that don't. Plus the higher attendance rates make sense of what we know of populations. For example, Ireland has a church attendance rate of over 80 percent, which is predictable if one is familiar with the Irish people.

Yes. The Irish are very religious, but here in America a lot of the Irish Catholics is lazy with going to the church after they hit their teens-twenties. I had an awesome priest, he was always drinking whiskey, and was from Ireland. He was funny when you talked to him personally, and he was always at the bar my dad was at.

[Joe McCarthy]

Absolutely wrong. Church attendance and belief in God are even lower in France.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-10-europe-religion-cover_x.htm


That link is over six years old. Here is presumably newer data, also citing the World Values Survey, showing France's church attendance rate at 21 percent:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance


France, though being nominally Catholic, entered that war on the Protestant side

It did that to counter Habsburg power, which was the more immediate danger to French national security. It did the same thing with the Ottomans in the previous century. Describing France as 'nominally Catholic' though in that era would have come as a shock to its Protestant minority and to Voltaire, who lamented the intense religious fanaticism of Frenchmen in all of its religious wars. The same Cardinal Richelieu that backed Protestants internationally in the Thirty Years War crushed Protestantism domestically.

[Hurrem sultana]

That link is over six years old. Here is presumably newer data, also citing the World Values Survey, showing France's church attendance rate at 21 percent:


People become so much more religious during 6 years? why,,,Jesus showed hims self in Paris?? :D

i have many relatives in both france and sweden,and believe me both countries are almost on the same level,,france is even more strictly secular...in sweden church is still represented in the schools

[Eva]

They're not actually. Everyone who travels there notes that Armenians seldom visit churches and they don't have massive christian holiday celebrations unlike Georgians. Christianity for them is mostly just a marker symbolizing that they sort of belong to civilized world and are different from certain neighbours.:rolleyes:

Listen, are you really mentally ill??? The topic interested me and I wanted to learn something about religion in Scandinavia. I was reading the posts and here is the Georgian talking about Armenians again.
What the hell do you ever know about religion in Armenia?
I live in Armenia and attend church on Sundays and they are always full of believers. If it weren't so, I would say that there are no people in the churches on Sundays, but what to hide or lie lol.. secularism is even more spread nowadays in Europe, so what you say is just as funny and irrelevant as all your posts devoted to Armenians.
Because of the increasing attendance new churches are being built or rebuilt in Yerevan. The attendance rate is lower in regions and villages.
Most people, even the ones who don't attend church regularly, consider themselves Christians and followers of the Armenian National Church. There are also atheists and pagans, minorities of sects and protestants.

Lol yes Armenians are very bad and Georgians are great. You are the best Christians in the world, true Christians who have gone black with jealosy towards Armenians and spill hatred on Armenians from morning till night. You are brilliant examples of Christians. You are simply the best. Are you satisfied?

[ikki]

Nah, most Swedes are still members of the church and therefore classed as Lutherans.

but does even 5% go twice a year to church? ;)

(yeah, something like 1-2% go once a year, and that is including the dying women and the compulsory 15yo kids due to confirmation (because they get gifts afterwards & a summercamp/skiingcamp.. lol) )

---------------------

Anyway i resigned the church after the church newspaper announced that islam was just as a valid way to heaven as their christianity. That combined with women priests and whatnot nonsense. Not even heretics burned anymore.... so whats the damn point in religion when it ends up meaning nothing whatsoever?
Might aswell get myself a few more kebabs with that 1% church tax. (yeah a compulsory extra tax for business and anyone belonging to the church, leave the church and save money)

[ikki]

What we do know of Germanic paganism strikes me as primitive, and most of it has been lost or destroyed. Added to that is the experience of many centuries of Christianity which has left an indelible imprint even on the Norse. As they say, you can't go home again... And as an ex-Odinist friend of mine put it, dabbling in the old ways is akin to making a religion out of Star Wars.

So? Its all makebelieve anyway? Some state bureocrat babbling nonsense, and one of the even more boring classes in school. Yes, we have religios ckasses in the school, but noone believes. Especially not the teacher. (some 2-4 hours a week iirc, classes 1-9)

One can request another religion to be taught than luther, incase theres 5 kids demanding it. Im pretty surprised there has been no satanist classes yet ...just for the luls... afterall its all nonsense anyway, so might aswell enjoy themselves. :D

[Ouistreham]

That link is over six years old. Here is presumably newer data, also citing the World Values Survey, showing France's church attendance rate at 21 percent:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance

This is ridiculous. 21 percent? Pure nonsense.
Most recent data says: 4.5%.
(From a Catholic source, that tends to represent the situation as more favourable than it is actually):
http://www.la-croix.com/Religion/S-informer/Actualite/La-France-reste-catholique-mais-moins-pratiquante-_NG_-2009-12-29-570979

Never trust American sources!


Describing France as 'nominally Catholic' though in that era would have come as a shock to its Protestant minority and to Voltaire, who lamented the intense religious fanaticism of Frenchmen in all of its religious wars.

Voltaire waged total war against Catholics, hence he logically lamented that there were still too many of them, what else would you want him to say?


The same Cardinal Richelieu that backed Protestants internationally in the Thirty Years War crushed Protestantism domestically.

Wrong. You are probably confusing with Louis XIV's darn stupid anti-Protestant campaign, 75 years later.

Richelieu denied the Calvinists to have their own armies and fortresses on French soil, but their religious rights remained untouched.

Nothing that can compare to Cromwell's (somewhat Jewish inspired) genocidal measures against Catholics at the same time in Britain.

[Humanophage]

Scandinavians aren't very special among Northwest Europeans in this regard.

http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs/articles/folder_published/article_base_54/images/wvs-culture-map.jpg

I'll take the liberty of reposting the WVS chart from another thread, since it seems relevant:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/GodImportance.gif

The most irreligious ex-Communist states are generally the most well-off, excepting Poland, in which Catholicism has a very powerful nationalist component.

[Sally]

Looking over global church attendance rates I was struck by how low the figures are in Scandinavia (5 percent or lower)...

Thoughts?

I don't think the Evangelical Lutheran church (at least in Finland and Sweden) imposes any requirements for church attendance, which might be one reason for the low figures. I searched both sites, and I couldn't find any sort of precept regarding attendance. Churches seem to have a surge in attendance at Christmas and Easter, though.

If church attendance is truly higher in Catholic countries, it might be because attending Mass every Sunday is a precept of the Church.* Not that everyone adheres to it, but going to Mass is very habitual for some Catholics.

*2042 The first precept ("You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor")

[Padre Organtino]

Listen, are you really mentally ill??? The topic interested me and I wanted to learn something about religion in Scandinavia. I was reading the posts and here is the Georgian talking about Armenians again.
What the hell do you ever know about religion in Armenia?
I live in Armenia and attend church on Sundays and they are always full of believers. If it weren't so, I would say that there are no people in the churches on Sundays, but what to hide or lie lol.. secularism is even more spread nowadays in Europe, so what you say is just as funny and irrelevant as all your posts devoted to Armenians.
Because of the increasing attendance new churches are being built or rebuilt in Yerevan. The attendance rate is lower in regions and villages.
Most people, even the ones who don't attend church on Sundays, consider themselves Christians and followers of the Armenian National Church. There are also atheists and pagans, minorities of sects and protestants.

Lol yes Armenians are very bad and Georgians are great. You are the best Christians in the world, true Christians who have gone black with jealosy towards Armenians and spill hatred on Armenians from morning till night. You are brilliant examples of Christians. You are simply the best. Are you satisfied?

If you had looked carefully you'd see that I wrote on Armenians only because I was asked. My other posts in this topic had nothing to do with them. Considering oneself Christian and being religious are different things. Moreover I think Armenians have healthier attitude to the topic than Georgians do. I'm rather indifferent when it comes to religion.
Back to the topic: Church in the West managed to secure its positions in places where it had strong nationalist spirit embodied in it. Without constant conflicts or presence of hostile population/country that differes in terms of its religion Church is likely to loose popularity. That's an additional reason why it's so unpopular in Nordic countries.

[Hurrem sultana]

armenians fighting over who is more religious when the most civilized countries are mostly atheist :D


the most religious people live in africa

[Joe McCarthy]

This is ridiculous. 21 percent? Pure nonsense.
Most recent data says: 4.5%.
(From a Catholic source, that tends to represent the situation as more favourable than it is actually):
http://www.la-croix.com/Religion/S-informer/Actualite/La-France-reste-catholique-mais-moins-pratiquante-_NG_-2009-12-29-570979


That looks to be a couple of years old as well. At any rate, we can expect different estimates from different surveys.



Never trust American sources!

Except when you yourself cite USA Today to start this argument in the first place. :rolleyes:


Voltaire waged total war against Catholics, hence he logically lamented that there were still too many of them, what else would you want him to say?

I think you misunderstood me. He was commenting on the Wars of Religion, you know, those wars waged by 'nominally Catholic' France. :rolleyes:


Wrong. You are probably confusing with Louis XIV's darn stupid anti-Protestant campaign, 75 years later.

Richelieu denied the Calvinists to have their own armies and fortresses on French soil, but their religious rights remained untouched

No, I'm referring to Richelieu. He crushed them militarily and deprived them of their political rights.


Nothing that can compare to Cromwell's (somewhat Jewish inspired) genocidal measures against Catholics at the same time in Britain.

Wexford and Drogheda are overstewed by Irish chauvinists. In any case Cromwell's invasion of Ireland was one action. You frogs mastered the art of murder in religious warfare decades before, and multiple times.

[ikki]

but even on yule or eastern bunny services, good luck having over 1% of the areas socalled lutherans attending.

[Hurrem sultana]

soon it is yule(christmas),still i don't notice the "christian spirit" here in sweden

[HungAryan]

Why are Scandinavians so irreligious?
Because they are a bunch of sheep brainwashed by Marxist, Multiculturalist and Anti-Christian propaganda.
They are beyond salvation.

[Padre Organtino]

Why are Scandinavians so irreligious?
Because they are a bunch of sheep brainwashed by Marxist, Multiculturalist and Anti-Christian propaganda.
They are beyond salvation.

They do have rather high birth rates among the native population so I'd be less critical of them regardless of your beliefs.

[Hurrem sultana]

wow there are protestants in hungary? did not know,are you maybe a convert?

[Eva]

armenians fighting over who is more religious when the most civilized countries are mostly atheist :D


the most religious people live in africa

Fighting? no, there was even a war who is most religious loool.

There are statistics above, it appears Bosnians give a little bit more importance to God than Armenians... Wow you are Africans looool

[TheBorrebyViking]

Why are Scandinavians so irreligious?
Because they are a bunch of sheep brainwashed by Marxist, Multiculturalist and Anti-Christian propaganda.
They are beyond salvation.

What about the Pagans?

[Hurrem sultana]

Fighting? no, there was even a war who is most religious loool.

There are statistics above, it appears Bosnians give a little bit more importance to God than Armenians... Wow you are Africans looool

i did not see any statics,mind showing?

[Caeruleus]

it has nothing to do with scandinavian pragmatism, sense of reality, free will, individualism and all that crap scandinavians would like you to believe ... its just a matter of geography and nothing more, they live in the quite northern corner of Europe where nobody bothered them for centuries. When you have muslim turks knocking on your door every other day you will gladly embrace christianity not necessarily because you believe in its "fairytales" but because its a good defending mechanism, a form of cultural preservation, thats why christianity is regarded as a intrinsic component of eastern european nationalism. People from eastern Europe take pride in what their forefathers did for the European Cause.

We are the products of our environment and it doesnt mean that northerners are better anchored in reality, that they figured out the true meaning of life and the nature of all things ... we'll talk about who's in touch with reality when guys like Ushtari will be elected president in the Islamic Republic of Scandinivistan ;)

[Hurrem sultana]

it has nothing to do with scandinavian pragmatism, sense of reality, free will, individualism and all that crap scandinavians would like you to believe ... its just a matter of geography and nothing more, they live in the quite northern corner of Europe where nobody bothered them for centuries. When you have muslim turks knocking on your door every other day you will gladly embrace christianity not necessarily because you believe in its "fairytales" but because its a good defending mechanism, a form of cultural preservation, thats why christianity is regarded as a intrinsic component of eastern european nationalism. People from eastern Europe take pride in what their forefathers did for the European Cause.

We are the products of our environment and it doesnt mean that northerners are better anchored in reality, that they figured out the true meaning of life and the nature of all things ... we'll talk about who's in touch with reality when guys like Ushtari will be elected president in the Islamic Republic of Scandinivistan ;)

How do you explain the fact that france,germany,asutria,netherlands are so atheistic then?

[HungAryan]

They do have rather high birth rates among the native population so I'd be less critical of them regardless of your beliefs.

High birthrates?
Bullshit. There is no country in Europe with a fertility rate above 2.1, which is the minimal required to sustain a culture.
Sweden's fertility rate is 1.94 children born per woman, and I bet that it's the immigrants making the average higher. Sweden's population is only 90% Swedish, and the 5% immigrant population does "wonders" to increase the average fertility rate :rolleyes:


wow there are protestants in hungary? did not know,are you maybe a convert?

Hungary is 20% Protestant, and 50% Catholic. The rest are Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists and people who "are not sure".


What about the Pagans?

Who cares about them?
They are not Christian. They are infidels.
To me, they are on the same level as atheists, muslims and jews.

And you all know what I want to do with infidels...
http://queeringthechurch.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/burning_heretics1232828487.jpg

[TheBorrebyViking]

High birthrates?
Bullshit. There is no country in Europe with a fertility rate above 2.1, which is the minimal required to sustain a culture.
Sweden's fertility rate is 1.94 children born per woman, and I bet that it's the immigrants making the average higher. Sweden's population is only 90% Swedish, and the 5% immigrant population does "wonders" to increase the average fertility rate :rolleyes:



Hungary is 20% Protestant, and 50% Catholic. The rest are Orthodox Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists and people who "are not sure".



Who cares about them?
They are not Christian. They are infidels.
To me, they are on the same level as atheists, muslims and jews.

And you all know what I want to do with infidels...
http://queeringthechurch.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/burning_heretics1232828487.jpg

Many National Socialists were also Atheist or Pagans. A lot were also Catholic...............

[HungAryan]

Many National Socialists were also Atheist or Pagans. A lot were also Catholic...............

The majority of National Socialists were Christian, including Adolf Hitler himself.
I don't have any problems with Catholics and Orthodox. As long as you are white, Christian, and NOT part of the Little Entente (Slovakia-Romania-Serbia), I have no problems with you.

[Caeruleus]

How do you explain the fact that france,germany,asutria,netherlands are so atheistic then?

have you read my post or do you know what geography means, any clue were France or Netherlands might be !? :) I'm starting to believe that you're not exactly friends with Mr. Intellect.

[HungAryan]

Western Europe and Northern Europe are generally very liberal, and therefore atheistic.

[Hurrem sultana]

yeah you talked about the reasons being they lived in northern europe and were isolated because of that


still the swedes were very religious until 100 years ago,so something changed in the 20th century(just like in rest of western europe)..so there is no old history factor here

[TheBorrebyViking]

The majority of National Socialists were Christian, including Adolf Hitler himself.
I don't have any problems with Catholics and Orthodox. As long as you are white, Christian, and NOT part of the Little Entente (Slovakia-Romania-Serbia), I have no problems with you.

What about people like me who just atheist but don't really care about religion either way? I only hate shit like Islam and Judaism.

[HungAryan]

What about people like me who just atheist but don't really care about religion either way? I only hate shit like Islam and Judaism.

Just pretend to be a non-practising Christian, and you'll be fine... :D

[TheBorrebyViking]

Just pretend to be a non-practising Christian, and you'll be fine... :D

lol. I don't talk about my religion ever outside of forums. Even when in a debate with people in real life, I never bring up my own beliefs. Religion to me has not a single care "bone".

[HungAryan]

lol. I don't talk about my religion ever outside of forums. Even when in a debate with people in real life, I never bring up my own beliefs. Religion to me has not a single care "bone".

Then avoid talking about religion.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Then avoid talking about religion.

My talks about religion are mainly defending Christianity against "hate atheists". Hate atheists piss me off.

[HungAryan]

My talks about religion are mainly defending Christianity against "hate atheists". Hate atheists piss me off.

"Hate Atheists"... you mean Communists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_Warsaw_Pact_countries

[Padre Organtino]

Ethnic Swedes still have not that small birth rate - 1.82. Compare that to German fertility rate of 1.41 and you see the difference.
http://www.thelocal.se/15408/20081103/

[Caeruleus]

yeah you talked about the reasons being they lived in northern europe and were isolated because of that


still the swedes were very religious until 100 years ago,so something changed in the 20th century(just like in rest of western europe)..so there is no old history factor here

Yeeees, something happened in the last 100 years :rolleyes: northern and western europeans didnt had communist regimes to persecute them for their religious beliefs, communists didnt blow up their churches or themeselves for that matter. You see, when the wind blows harder and harder you dont take your coat off, on the contrary you try to hold on to it.

[Padre Organtino]

Yeeees, something happened in the last 100 years :rolleyes: northern and western europeans didnt had communist regimes to persecute them for their religious beliefs, communists didnt blow up their churches or themeselves for that matter. You see, when the wind blows harder and harder you dont take your coat off, on the contrary you try to hold on to it.

Thing is during that persecution Church was attracting rather admirable folks and in general was playing quite positive role. With the fall of communism in some countries Church has transformed into giant bureaucratic entity revolving around various rituals and completely devoid of any enlightment.

[TheBorrebyViking]

"Hate Atheists"... you mean Communists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_Warsaw_Pact_countries
Yup. Cultural marxists.

[HungAryan]

Yeeees, something happened in the last 100 years :rolleyes: northern and western europeans didnt had communist regimes to persecute them for their religious beliefs, communists didnt blow up their churches or themeselves for that matter. You see, when the wind blows harder and harder you dont take your coat off, on the contrary you try to hold on to it.

They West and North also had heavy Liberal propaganda, made by Jews.

_erLpL02lyQ

[Pallantides]

Jews


Jews have never really had a foothold in Norway, their presence have been outlawed through out most of our history, in 1814 there was even a paragraf in our 'liberal' constitution that no Jews were allowed entry into Norway which was based on a much older law from the middle ages, in 1855 Jews were allowed entry to Norway, but at the outbreak of WW2 all of Norway's 2100 Jewish population were deported and of them 29 survived, most did not return to Norway.


Today there are under 2000 Jews in Norway, which is fewer than in most other European countries. In Hungary for examples there are around 80 000 – 100 000 Jews.

[Styggnacke]

but does even 5% go twice a year to church? ;)
Most babies are still baptized in the Swedish Church, most people still have their wedding in the Swedish Church, most people are still buried in the Swedish Church, the majority of the schools still arrange commencement in the Swedish Church, 1/3 of the youth in Sweden (maybe half if the immigrants are excluded) are confirmed in the Swedish Church etc.

I definitely think that the average Swede visits church at least twice a year.

[Der Steinadler]

This is not a new.

Scandinavia has been without religion for 1500 years.

[Pallantides]

Scandinavia has been without religion for 1500 years.

Those godless heathens!

[Contra Mundum]

My talks about religion are mainly defending Christianity against "hate atheists". Hate atheists piss me off.

They really are a despicable group. I'm agnostic, but I despise Christian hating cultural Marxist swine. They're composed of Jews and self loathing whites, usually from wealthy families.

[Styggnacke]

This is not a new.

Scandinavia has been without religion for 1500 years.
My great great grandfather who was a priest would strongly disagree with you.

[TheBorrebyViking]

They really are a despicable group. I'm agnostic, but I despise Christian hating cultural Marxist swine. They're composed of Jews and self loathing whites, usually from wealthy families.

Yup. I'm agnostic in the idea that their could be a god, but I am personally Atheist and don't believe there is a god.

[Der Steinadler]

My great great grandfather who was a priest would strongly disagree with you.

was he christian ?

[Styggnacke]

was he christian ?
Nope, satanist :rolleyes:

[Sylvanus]

Protestantism is the before-step to the atheism!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/content/images/2007/02/15/blackadder_archbishop_396x222.jpg

[Der Steinadler]

Nope, satanist :rolleyes:

why do you call that religion ?

[Styggnacke]

why do you call that religion ?
Notice the sarcastic smiley. Of course he was a Lutheran Christian priest!

[Der Steinadler]

Notice the sarcastic smiley. Of course he was a Lutheran Christian priest!

ok.

but the same question applies.

why do you call that religion ?

[Äike]

As we all know, all Nordic countries have a Lutheran history. The Lutheran way of thinking paved the way to our current non-religious state of mind.

Nordic people are also pragmatic and thus religion plays a small role in our lives.

The 4 least religious countries in the world are 1. Estonia 2. Sweden 3. Norway 4. Denmark

You could say that this Nordic mentality and lack of religion has made those 4 countries very successful. Estonia had 50 years of Soviet occupation, but right after regaining independence, the Estonians made the most successful reforms in entire Europe and have had the fastest growing European economy for the last 11 years. When Balts talk about Estonia, they say that our success is caused by the pragmatic Nordic mentality we have and the lack of religion. Estonia is 30% richer than the Baltic countries.

This Lutheran tradition has been very good to us, Nordic people, in the long term.

[Joe McCarthy]

Protestantism is the before-step to the atheism!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/content/images/2007/02/15/blackadder_archbishop_396x222.jpg

Certainly not so in Russia and France.

[AussieScott]

Maybe this is why Joe, interesting article anyway, maybe worth another thread. :)


A radical explanation for a conundrum about extraterrestrial life, and what it means for the future of humanity.

Maybe the bright aliens did the same. I suspect that a certain period of fitness-faking narcissism is inevitable after any intelligent life evolves. This is the Great Temptation for any technological species—to shape their subjective reality to provide the cues of survival and reproductive success without the substance. Most bright alien species probably go extinct gradually, allocating more time and resources to their pleasures, and less to their children. They eventually die out when the game behind all games—the Game of Life—says “Game Over; you are out of lives and you forgot to reproduce.”

Heritable variation in personality might allow some lineages to resist the Great Temptation and last longer. Some individuals and families may start with an “irrational” Luddite abhorrence of entertainment technology, and they may evolve ever more self-control, conscientiousness and pragmatism. They will evolve a horror of virtual entertainment, psychoactive drugs and contraception. They will stress the values of hard work, delayed gratifica tion, child-rearing and environmental stewardship. They will combine the family values of the religious right with the sustainability values of the Greenpeace left. Their concerns about the Game of Life will baffle the political pollsters who only understand the rhetoric of status and power, individual and society, rights and duties, good and evil, us and them.

This, too, may be happening already. Christian and Muslim fundamentalists and anti-consumerism activists already understand exactly what the Great Temptation is, and how to avoid it. They insulate themselves from our creative-class dreamworlds and our EverQuest economics. They wait patiently for our fitness-faking narcissism to go extinct. Those practical-minded breeders will inherit the Earth as like-minded aliens may have inherited a few other planets. When they finally achieve contact, it will not be a meeting of novel-readers and game-players. It will be a meeting of dead-serious super-parents who congratulate each other on surviving not just the Bomb, but the Xbox.

Geoffrey Miller is an assistant professor in the department of psychology at University of New Mexico and author of The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature.



That is the last 3 paragraphs interesting read any way.

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/why_we_havent_met_any_aliens/

[Der Steinadler]

Protestantism is the before-step to the atheism!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/content/images/2007/02/15/blackadder_archbishop_396x222.jpg

True.

Protestanism is like Germanic Judaism. A completely anti-esoteric and dogmatic worldview. That's why Germanic countries have a bland culture and difficulties when it comes to expressing themselves or socialising. Everything is forbidden because of some so called 'scripture'. I would go as far to say that the Germans in the US have actually become like the God of the Old Testament, a nasty revengfull hate-ridden old jew.

[AussieScott]

I come under the preservationist, anti-consumerist type mainly...Plus the heritable lineage part.:)

I guess it's a survivalist trait.

[Hevneren]

Why is Scandinavia so irreligious? There are probably several reasons for this, but first I'd like to comment on a few of the posts.

A common "argument" I've read on this thread is that because we're so "liberal" and multicultiralist, we're just bound to be less religious. Well, no. There's no direct correlation between secularism and multiculturalism, or else largely secular Estonia would have far more non-white immigrants than Italy or Spain, as a percentage of the population. That's not the case. Has Christianity kept the United States from receiving non-white and non-Christian immigrants? Certainly not!

It's amusing to see the shit-talking towards Scandinavian countries, being done by members from shining beacons such as Romania and Hungary. It's been claimed that Christianity kept these countries (and the ones in that region) from turning Islamic, but what's the explanation for the Ottomans conquering Christian Bosnia, Albania and Bulgaria, or the Moors conquering Christian Spain and Portugal? Indeed, Christian Hungary had its territory reduced to half by its equally Christian neighbours. Did Christianity protect Hungary in that situation? It would seem not. :shrug:

Now we have members, who live in countries overrun by Gypsies and with their women selling themselves cheaply to pornography and wealthy secular Western men, making ignorant and uninformed comments. Does their faith keep Hungary and Romania from being poor and underdeveloped? Does their faith keep Romania and Hungary from being backwaters in Europe in need of EU aid and humanitarian aid from wealthy secular Western countries? Perhaps they shouldn't bite the secular Western hand that feeds them? :shrug:

Absinthe wrote that one reason Scandinavia is so irreligious is because we haven't had any wars for a century. Well, actually, Norway and Denmark (and Nordic Finland and Iceland) were thrown into the most devastating war in human history, namely World War Two. We saw the result of religious conflict when the highly religious Catholic/occultist Nazi tyranny - backed by the German Catholic Church and lead by Adolf Hitler, who's greatest idol was the Protestant reformer and anti-Semite Martin Luther - attempted to wipe out a religious minority who'd "killed Jesus" (that was one historic reason for their persecution).
Zq5L4k9gKgs

I don't know why members are bringing up birthrates on this thread since it's rather off-topic, but I'd like to comment on it none the less. It's a pure myth that more religious countries always have higher birthrates than more religious countries. If anything, the parametres are more based on poverty and lack of educated versus prosperity and high education. Poor African countries with high illiteracy rates tend to have the highest birthrates in the world, along with places like Afghanistan.

Comparing secular Britain, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and Iceland to Catholic Italy, Spain, Portugal and Orthodox Greece shows that the highly Catholic and Orthodox countries mentioned have lower birthrates than the highly secular ones.

Now that I've addressed some of the nonsense, I'd like to add my thoughts as to why we're less religious than most other places.

In the case of all the Nordic countries, Christianity was a relative newcomer compared to most of the rest of Europe, and here in Norway Christianity was introduced by force, through mass torture and murder. This will, quite understandably, create some hostility in the general population.

Norway has a history of rebellion and individualism, and at one time our king even spoke out against Rome itself, which at that time was like Iceland challenging the US military. Our king, having massive testicles of steel, basically told Rome to go "stick it".

Norwegian peasentry would also rebel against the lordship, managing to wipe out our nobility. Our peasants have always had a strong role in Norwegian society, but the Church was traditionally linked to the nobility and the royals. It was the Church that had the authority to appoint a king as "chosen by God". This disparity between the common folk, who by the way had to pay a tithe to the Church, and the wealthy who had close ties to the Church, was most likely a recipe for a slow but steady decline of the Church.

At the same time, the common folk also kept many of the pagan traditions. Christian missionaries, who in the 1860's had visited some of the most remote villages in Norway via steam engine, found newly carved Norse statues depicting the old gods!

Norway went through many tough times. During the Black Death 2/3 (TWO THIRDS) of all Norwegians died, leaving many farms empty. The Church and the clergy were unable to stop the plague, their methods and prayers had failed.

Then we entered over 500 years of so called "unions", which lead to more hardships. Finally, in 1905 we regained our independence, not through religious war, or the strength of the Church, but through a peace agreement between two nations. Some of Norway's first tasks were to get its industry and science up and running, and men like Sam Eyde and Fridtjof Nansen set the stage for science, exploration and curiosity about the world.

After WWII, Norway was still quite poor, but through great effort our people rebuilt the nation brick by brick under the administration of the highly secular Norwegian Labour Party, who'd also lead our government in exile during the war and inspired our people to fight Catholic Nazi Germany.

From the 1960's and onwards Norway created a social democratic welfare state which ensured certain goods and services to its people, including education, healthcare and pensions. Norwegians didn't have to turn to the Church for help, they had what they needed.

[Hevneren]

Why are Scandinavians so irreligious?
Because they are a bunch of sheep brainwashed by Marxist, Multiculturalist and Anti-Christian propaganda.
They are beyond salvation.

I think you're confused. In the civilised world (Western Europe), we don't see independent thinking as brainwashing. Everyone is free to have an invisible pretend-friend, but in Norway, Sweden and Denmark we generally reserve that for the ages 1-6 years old. In Hungary, apparently, it's different, but who am I to judge? :shrug:

By the way, how come Hungarian women are so plentiful in pornography, when you're such a pious religious country? Norwegian women don't sell themselves for the price of a ham sandwich, like they do in Hungary.

[Der Steinadler]

....and the left-right soap opera continues.

[Hevneren]

it has nothing to do with scandinavian pragmatism, sense of reality, free will, individualism and all that crap scandinavians would like you to believe ... its just a matter of geography and nothing more, they live in the quite northern corner of Europe where nobody bothered them for centuries. When you have muslim turks knocking on your door every other day you will gladly embrace christianity not necessarily because you believe in its "fairytales" but because its a good defending mechanism, a form of cultural preservation, thats why christianity is regarded as a intrinsic component of eastern european nationalism. People from eastern Europe take pride in what their forefathers did for the European Cause.

We are the products of our environment and it doesnt mean that northerners are better anchored in reality, that they figured out the true meaning of life and the nature of all things

I agree that geography had a role in us being irreligious, but it was hardly the only factor. You also mentioned the Ottomans, and again I can see what you're saying about creating a counterweight against a common enemy. It makes sense to unite under a single banner if you're relatively homogenous and you're facing a very alien threat.

Although I see your points, I'd say that the historical aspect of why we're more irreligious sticks deeper than the lack of Islamic threats towards our nations. I wrote a long post where I brought up factors such as Christianity reaching our lands relatively late and often being spread through violence, intimidation or coercion. One thing I forgot to mention was that Scandinavian countries generally had spread out, small populations with small villages dotted all over. This is at least true for Norway and Sweden, and our Nordic cousins Finland.

Small, spread out populations take longer to convert than more centralised populations. Missionaries would have to reach hundreds of small villages in hidden away valleys, mountainous areas and along the coastline.

I also mentioned that in Norway we rebelled against the nobility and pretty much wiped out the entire noble class, who were close to the Church. Norway was by-and-large a nation of peasants, far removed from the Church yet having to pay a tribute of 10% to them.

In modern times, we've seen a great rise in prosperity, especially since 1960's and onwards, with a strong focus of social democratic distribution of wealth into education, health care, pensions and other programmes.

The Church, which was and is connected to the State, probably also suffered from its connection to the State, since religion became institutionalised, providing services like weddings, funerals and confirmations while receiving tax money. That's also an important point which I forgot to mention. In the USA you have all these "free churches", who're obviously privately run. There's no religious institutionalism in the States, like here.


... we'll talk about who's in touch with reality when guys like Ushtari will be elected president in the Islamic Republic of Scandinivistan ;)

I hope you know that Sweden, Denmark and Norway have fewer Muslims per capita than most other Western European countries, and we certainly have fewer Muslims than the number of Gypsies in Hungary and Romania. There's a greater chance of Hungary and Romania turning into Gypsy beggar pariah states than us turning Islamic. Besides, at the rate that Hungarian and Romanian women flee their countries to either wed Western men, sell themselves as prostitutes to Western men or do porn with Western men, I would worry more about your beloved Romania having a negative demographic growth rate amidst your economic problems as one of Europe's poorest countries.

Then again, secular Western countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc. are sending Romania humanitarian aid and EU grants. Your rich secular Western sugar daddies may stop the flow of money if things start getting really bad in the EU and elsewhere. Just a warning, so that you don't sit there gleefully anticipating the destruction of wealthy secular Western nations. :shrug:

[The Ripper]

Nordics like Estonians are secular because they are so smart. Religious people are religious because they're so dumb.

[Äike]

Nordics like Estonians are secular because they are so smart. Religious people are religious because they're so dumb.

You're going to piss off some people, but it could be said like that.

More intelligent = less religious

[Contra Mundum]

So Hitler not only turned us all into multiculturalists, he also turned us into atheists.

[Hevneren]

High birthrates?
Bullshit. There is no country in Europe with a fertility rate above 2.1, which is the minimal required to sustain a culture.
Sweden's fertility rate is 1.94 children born per woman, and I bet that it's the immigrants making the average higher. Sweden's population is only 90% Swedish, and the 5% immigrant population does "wonders" to increase the average fertility rate :rolleyes:

From what I understand (and I may be wrong), these birthrate statistics only include native populations. Besides, here in Norway I would say more than half of our immigrant population are Western European, Eastern European and white North American. The nationality with the biggest single growth in Norway are the Polish. We have high birthrates when compared to most other European countries, and yet we also have fewer non-white immigrants per capita than many other European countries.


Who cares about them?They are not Christian. They are infidels.

Allah akbar! Kill the infidels!
http://snappedshot.com/uploads/Parody/capt.bb53b30e82e34d6b87ae51d853725e46.india_kashmi r_protest_rmx105.jpg


To me, they are on the same level as atheists, muslims and jews.

Oh, the irony! You call non-Christians infidels and want us dead, just as extremist Muslims call non-Muslims infidels and want us dead. :rolleyes2:


And you all know what I want to do with infidels...
http://queeringthechurch.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/burning_heretics1232828487.jpg

Ah yes, the good old days with secterian Christian infighting, pogroms, the Inquisition, repression of science, witch burnings and other goodies. I wonder why we progressed beyond the 17th century and entered the era of the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution? :rolleyes2:

[Loddfafner]

A higher average rate of intelligence.

[The Ripper]

You're going to piss off some people, but it could be said like that.

More intelligent = less religious

:rolleyes:

[Siberyak]

From what I understand (and I may be wrong), these birthrate statistics only include native populations. Besides, here in Norway I would say more than half of our immigrant population are Western European, Eastern European and white North American. The nationality with the biggest single growth in Norway are the Polish. We have high birthrates when compared to most other European countries, and yet we also have fewer non-white immigrants per capita than many other European countries.



Allah akbar! Kill the infidels!
http://snappedshot.com/uploads/Parody/capt.bb53b30e82e34d6b87ae51d853725e46.india_kashmi r_protest_rmx105.jpg



Oh, the irony! You call non-Christians infidels and want us dead, just as extremist Muslims call non-Muslims infidels and want us dead. :rolleyes2:



Ah yes, the good old days with secterian Christian infighting, pogroms, the Inquisition, repression of science, witch burnings and other goodies. I wonder why we progressed beyond the 17th century and entered the era of the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution? :rolleyes2:

I will take your word since you live in Norway. But many other have me that Olso is looking more and more like the Middle east.

[Der Steinadler]

I will take your word since you live in Norway. But many other have me that Olso is looking more and more like the Middle east.

Iv'e been to Oslo a few years ago, and its little more than a ghetto.

[Innar]

Rotten minds cannot grasp the result when you put 100 in one side of the scale and ∞ on the other side thus using their higher cognition only to support their lives as lower animals.

[Siberyak]

Iv'e been to Oslo a few years ago, and its little more than a ghetto.

There is no resistance to this either.

[Contra Mundum]

Maybe its simply becuase they have a darn good sense of reality.

I wish that "sense of reality" extended to them understanding that immigration will eventually eradicate their race and culture from the planet.

[Hevneren]

I will take your word since you live in Norway. But many other have me that Olso is looking more and more like the Middle east.

First of all, Oslo is absolutely not representable for the rest of the country. We have an uneven distribution of non-European immigration in the bigger cities, when compared to the rest of the country, and this is especially true in Oslo. When you also take into account that we have few big cities, it makes sense that there's a demographic bottle neck being created in the few big cities we have. People from Muslim countries make up less than 4% of the population in Norway. Keep in mind, I wrote "Muslim countries" rather than "being Muslims", because some of these people are minority Christians, minority Buddhists, minority Hindus, or they've converted to Christianity here, or they're more or less secularised.

Second of all, Oslo is about 25% immigrant, but out of that you'll find a lot of Eastern Europeans (in particular Polish carpenters and construction workers), Western Europeans, white North Americans and even a few white Oceanians (Australians/New Zealanders). Another thing to note is that Oslo is divided into two parts: the east and the west. The west is more white than the east, so adding this division to what I mentioned above, it's no wonder why you'll see a lot of non-whites in eastern Oslo, whereas in most of the rest of the country it's not nearly as much.

[Der Steinadler]

There is no resistance to this either.

that's just it.

right and left can't seem to pin-point who holding the gates open.

[Contra Mundum]

..it's no wonder why you'll see a lot of non-whites in eastern Oslo, whereas in most of the rest of the country it's not nearly as much.

For now.

[Hevneren]

I wish that "sense of reality" extended to them understanding that immigration will eventually eradicate their race and culture from the planet.

This is supposed to be a thread about religion, but yet you and others are derailing it into immigration. Could you please stay on topic?

[Siberyak]

First of all, Oslo is absolutely not representable for the rest of the country. We have an uneven distribution of non-European immigration in the bigger cities, when compared to the rest of the country, and this is especially true in Oslo. When you also take into account that we have few big cities, it makes sense that there's a demographic bottle neck being created in the few big cities we have. People from Muslim countries make up less than 4% of the population in Norway. Keep in mind, I wrote "Muslim countries" rather than "being Muslims", because some of these people are minority Christians, minority Buddhists, minority Hindus, or they've converted to Christianity here, or they're more or less secularised.

Second of all, Oslo is about 25% immigrant, but out of that you'll find a lot of Eastern Europeans (in particular Polish carpenters and construction workers), Western Europeans, white North Americans and even a few white Oceanians (Australians/New Zealanders). Another thing to note is that Oslo is divided into two parts: the east and the west. The west is more white than the east, so adding this division to what I mentioned above, it's no wonder why you'll see a lot of non-whites in eastern Oslo, whereas in most of the rest of the country it's not nearly as much.

I see, Major U.S. cities are much worse than Oslo I can tell you that.

[Caeruleus]

Although I see your points, I'd say that the historical aspect of why we're more irreligious sticks deeper than the lack of Islamic threats towards our nations. I wrote a long post where I brought up factors such as Christianity reaching our lands relatively late and often being spread through violence, intimidation or coercion. One thing I forgot to mention was that Scandinavian countries generally had spread out, small populations with small villages dotted all over. This is at least true for Norway and Sweden, and our Nordic cousins Finland.

Small, spread out populations take longer to convert than more centralised populations. Missionaries would have to reach hundreds of small villages in hidden away valleys, mountainous areas and along the coastline.

I agree that your relatively short christian history might've played a role in your rapid secularization, I also think that big countries with low density (like Sweden or Norway) are very hard to convert, also people that live in isolation are very reluctant to change, lets not forget the weather which also shapes a certain type of character :) -all these are historical and geographical factors that influenced who you are today (exactly what I was trying to say). You were lucky enough (and maybe you deserved that luck) to have the freedom to choose whether christianity is an option or not, others weren't.



I hope you know that Sweden, Denmark and Norway have fewer Muslims per capita than most other Western European countries, and we certainly have fewer Muslims than the number of Gypsies in Hungary and Romania. There's a greater chance of Hungary and Romania turning into Gypsy beggar pariah states than us turning Islamic. Besides, at the rate that Hungarian and Romanian women flee their countries to either wed Western men, sell themselves as prostitutes to Western men or do porn with Western men, I would worry more about your beloved Romania having a negative demographic growth rate amidst your economic problems as one of Europe's poorest countries.

Then again, secular Western countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc. are sending Romania humanitarian aid and EU grants. Your rich secular Western sugar daddies may stop the flow of money if things start getting really bad in the EU and elsewhere. Just a warning, so that you don't sit there gleefully anticipating the destruction of wealthy secular Western nations. :shrug:

Yes, yes I'm aware of the fact that Romania has more gypsies than Norway muslims :) as for Romania turning into gypsyland, well actually gypsies are starting to flee Romania in search for a better life, choosing to immigrate to Switzerland, France and other prosperous countries so in the next 10 years you might wake up being surrounded not only by muslims but also by gypsies :)
I not cheering for an islamic Scandinavia, on the contrary I would expect you northerners to be more harsh with immigrants, not allowing them to mooch your welfare system.

I couldnt care less for "sugar daddy western help", if it was in my power I would stop it right now (just so that I wouldnt hear you whining about it)... if I'm not mistaken Romania is the country with the lowest use of european funds (grants or whatever you call it) so accusing Romania of spending "your money" is hilarious, if you're looking for the beggar within the EU you should look somewhere else.

[Saruman]

Certainly we all know how late Scandinavia fell to Christianity and how it wasn't so with such great joy that Christianity was accepted. And how long it took to really take deeper roots there.

Nordid racial type in comparison to others is of more exploring, pioneering nature and doesn't accept concepts which can't stand rational scrutiny so well, hence less prone to irrational dogmas. This aspect of Nordid mentality influenced by Scandinavian Cromagnoid stubbornness and strong will to resist offers plausible explanation or at least basis for both, medieval resistance to Christianity, and in modern days embracal of secularism.

[Äike]

Nordid racial type in comparison to others is of more exploring, pioneering nature and doesn't accept concepts which can't stand rational scrutiny so well, hence less prone to irrational dogmas. This aspect of Nordid mentality influenced by Scandinavian Cromagnoid stubbornness and strong will to resist offers plausible explanation or at least basis for both, medieval resistance to Christianity, and in modern days embracal of secularism.

Go visit Northern-Europe, I recommend it. ;)

[Caeruleus]

Certainly we all know how late Scandinavia fell to Christianity and how it wasn't so with such great joy that Christianity was accepted. And how long it took to really take deeper roots there.

Nordid racial type in comparison to others is of more exploring, pioneering nature and doesn't accept concepts which can't stand rational scrutiny so well, hence less prone to irrational dogmas. This aspect of Nordid mentality influenced by Scandinavian Cromagnoid stubbornness and strong will to resist offers plausible explanation or at least basis for both, medieval resistance to Christianity, and in modern days embracal of secularism.

Sorry but stubbornes doesnt explain anything, balkanoids are by far the most stubborn people in Europe yet they are pretty (if not very) religious. I dont know if Nordids are exactly the way you claim them to be, I noticed you tend to idealize this european type :) so your opinion might be biased :)

[Saruman]

Ah since Joe started this thread to wonder about Scandinavia's lack of obeying God, I'll present his case for him, so let's see how many converts Joe gets.. I might only be tempted if Joe offers me some evangelical slim, long haired blonde.:D

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[Hurrem sultana]

Sorry but stubbornes doesnt explain anything, balkanoids are by far the most stubborn people in Europe yet they are pretty (if not very) religious. I dont know if Nordids are exactly the way you claim them to be, I noticed you tend to idealize this european type :) so your opinion might be biased :)

slavs are not religious,maybe romanians are

[Saruman]

Sorry but stubbornes doesnt explain anything, balkanoids are by far the most stubborn people in Europe yet they are pretty (if not very) religious. I dont know if Nordids are exactly the way you claim them to be, I noticed you tend to idealize this european type :) so your opinion might be biased :)

I'm saying CM stubbornness to enforce Nordid ideals of reason and freedom, though Nordid's can be very convinced about something too but if convinced with something suitable for them then especially so. Also there are different types of religiousness as well. Stubbornness can enforce ideal x or ideal y. Balkan has problem with vanity, Nordids as type less so.
There have been ex. Yugoslav writers who wrote about different types of religiousness among various ethnic groups and areas from ex. Yugoslavia, but that's a long story.


Go visit Northern-Europe, I recommend it. ;)

And you think I will prove myself correct?:)

[Caeruleus]

slavs are not religious,maybe romanians are

WRONG ! all I see on the internet is the serbian orthodox pride or serbian and greeks = orthodox brothers. Polacks are more religious than the Pope himself :D I know for sure that russians and ukrainians are religious too.

[Äike]

And you think I will prove myself correct?:)

On the contrary. Your idealistic fetishistic view about Nordids will cease to exist.

The absolute majority of us derive from Cro-Magnons, Nordids are rather the exception than the norm.

Also adding personality traits to subraces is pseudo-science in pseudo-science.

[Saruman]

WRONG ! all I see on the internet is the serbian orthodox pride or serbian and greeks = orthodox brothers. Polacks are more religious than the Pope himself :D I know for sure that russians and ukrainians are religious too.

Actually when I attended a lecture about it one religious scholar said that in a study just before the war in Yugoslavia Serbs were by far the least religious in comparison to Catholic Croats or Muslim Bosniaks. Even though nationalism was high!


On the contrary. Your idealistic fetishistic view about Nordids will cease to exist.

The absolute majority of us derive from Cro-Magnons, Nordids are rather the exception than the norm.

Also adding personality traits to subraces is pseudo-science in pseudo-science.

I don't think saying subrace x + subrace y = these mental traits always, but only that we can speak of such tendencies, while exact psychic traits might be "decrypted" by the exact features of an individual so easily individuals of same type can look quite different. But that facial features can have something to do with mental traits was also proposed by various scholars, just because it was made unpolitically correct doesn't mean it's without foundations.

And well I'm not so anti-Cromagnon at all if you want to imply that.
Also for ex. Alpines, Baltids (proper) seem more religious than Cromagnons for ex.

So it needs to be researched properly.

[Äike]

Baltids (proper) seem more religious than Cromagnons for ex.

How do you explain Estonia, Sweden, Denmark and Norway being the least religious countries in the world?

[Saruman]

How do you explain Estonia, Sweden, Denmark and Norway being the least religious countries in the world?

Well all are similar, aren't in Estonia West-Baltids more common than Baltids? :D
And all are protestant, Protestantism was more in line with Nordid concepts as well with Cromagnoid in comparison with Catholicism. So definitely Protestantism being far less dogmatic, more pragmatic, more enterprise/work oriented makes far better ground for secularism than Catholicism.

[Äike]

Well all are similar, aren't in Estonia West-Baltids more common than Baltids? :D

What's the difference? Borrebys, West-Baltids, Baltids etc. They all derive from Cro-Magnon.

Estonians are a West-Baltid - Nordid mix.

Practically saying, the majority of Northern-Europeans from Iceland to Estonia belong to Cro-Magnon types which aren't that different from each other. A Swedish Cro-Magnon derived type can pass as an ethnic Estonian in Estonia and vice-versa.


And all are protestant, Protestantism was more in line with Nordid concepts as well with Cromagnoid in comparison with Catholicism. So definitely Protestantism being far less dogmatic, more pragmatic, more enterprise/work oriented makes far better ground for secularism than Catholicism.

lol wtf? If you belong to a certain subrace, you have to have a religion that fits the subrace the most?

Martin Luther was an Alpine.

[Mordid]

WRONG ! all I see on the internet is the serbian orthodox pride or serbian and greeks = orthodox brothers. Polacks are more religious than the Pope himself :D I know for sure that russians and ukrainians are religious too.
Traditionally, Polish people have typically been perceived as very religious (Roman Catholic). Under communism, religion was an easy way to show protest and separation from the Soviet Union. The Catholic Church also played a positive role in preserving national identity and historical tradition. However, even then the religiousness was mostly for show. With the fall of communism, the situation changed in the way that the Church has wanted to play an important role in the country's political life, showed lots of greed and hunger for power. This put lots of people off the Church.

[Styggnacke]

True.

Protestanism is like Germanic Judaism. A completely anti-esoteric and dogmatic worldview. That's why Germanic countries have a bland culture and difficulties when it comes to expressing themselves or socialising. Everything is forbidden because of some so called 'scripture'. I would go as far to say that the Germans in the US have actually become like the God of the Old Testament, a nasty revengfull hate-ridden old jew.
Totally ridiculous. Have you actually read anything about Luther and why he wanted to reform the Church?

[Saruman]

What's the difference? Borrebys, West-Baltids, Baltids etc. They all derive from Cro-Magnon.

Estonians are a West-Baltid - Nordid mix.

Practically saying, the majority of Northern-Europeans from Iceland to Estonia belong to Cro-Magnon types which aren't that different from each other. A Swedish Cro-Magnon derived type can pass as an ethnic Estonian in Estonia and vice-versa.

OK yes you're all basically CM-Nordid mix, in no ethnicity though is fully reduced CM very strong. Yes they all do derive from Cromagnon, as do Alpines but they are very altered as are Baltids proper, though they are slightly less altered than Alpines on avg. probably.
Reduced CM is only present: some Baltid in Estonians, some Alpinid (Strantid) in Norwegians, and some Baltid in Swedes. (note I do not include here Borreby and West-Baltid)




lol wtf? If you belong to a certain subrace, you have to have a religion that fits the subrace the most?

All races, subraces are result of adaptation, so it's very plausible they have even mental traits going along with physical ones. But well yes if certain psychic tendencies are connected with certain types they will logically choose for them what they perceive as better suitable. But one must add historical considerations as well, in history many ideas were simply imposed by force, though despite that people found ways to alter what has been imposed to them to their liking somewhat if they are unable to reject it openly.

Actually some scholars in Serbia for example made distinctions of different approach towards Christianity that people took in various areas of Serbia and Croatia, for ex. one for Dinarid Montenegrins, other for Central type (Nordoid) Central Serbians, another one for Alpines from Croatian Zagorje...

It's not absolute not at all!! That's just for tendencies on a group level while there is ofc significant range among individuals.




Martin Luther was an Alpine.

I'd say he was a mix of Atlantid, Dinarid and Alpinoid.

http://www.afaithtoliveby.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/martin_luther.jpg

Here CM(maybe Faelid) seems present.
http://biography4u.com/image-files/Luther,%20an%20Augustinian%20monk's%20habit.jpg

[Dilberth]

for Dinarid Montenegrins, other for Central type (Nordoid) Central Serbians, another one for Alpines from Croatian Zagorje...
[/IMG]

Alpines are not common in Zagorje,I don't know why people keep saying this all the time...Actually alpinoids are more common in other Croatian regions than Zagorje.And Nordoids in Central Serbia...where exactly?How common are they?

[mymy]

WRONG ! all I see on the internet is the serbian orthodox pride or serbian and greeks = orthodox brothers. Polacks are more religious than the Pope himself :D I know for sure that russians and ukrainians are religious too.

Most of Serbs aren't truly religions, they identify Serbian Ortodox Church with being Serb, so that's why you can see those things on internet. That's because Ortodox churches are national, and they are often base of national identity. When thinking about religious holidays, people think about food and drink, not about God.

[Rochefaton]

Because they would rather spend their free time doing things they enjoy instead of congregating inside of a building and worshiping some sky daddy they are told exists and answers prayers?

Is that the right answer?

[The Ripper]

Nordid racial type in comparison to others is of more exploring, pioneering nature and doesn't accept concepts which can't stand rational scrutiny so well, hence less prone to irrational dogmas.

It is strange then, isn't it, that some of the most Nordid countries embrace the multikult and other suicidal and irrational dogmas with the greatest eagerness. They even make secularism into a religion in itself.

[Pallantides]

Nordids are also more prone to acts of sodomy

....



*jk*:D:p

[Peyrol]

Looking over global church attendance rates I was struck by how low the figures are in Scandinavia (5 percent or lower). The only really comparable lows are found in Russia (which is even lower) or ex-Soviet republics like Ukraine, Belarus, or Armenia which are slightly higher. Serbia also rates low, but these are somewhat understandable as they were ruled by communists. Even so, certain ex-Marxist states like Poland or Romania have much higher rates than Scandinavia. Even China has a slightly higher rate. In fact, the Netherlands, which many see as the epitome of secularism, has a church attendance rate seven times higher than Scandinavia.

Thoughts?


Most secularized states in Europe are probabily, with scandinavian countries, Italy and Spain.

[mimzy]

I actually don't think Scandinavians ever truly embraced Christianity.

[Vasconcelos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe