Ranking European peoples from most to least genetically homogenous from region to region

[Johnson Reed]

Only counting those who identify as ethnically X, not recent migrant groups or groups that see themselves as ethnically distinct like Gypsies, or Lapps.

ESSENTIALLY HOMOGENOUS
Irish
Welsh
Cornish
Scottish
Manx
Icelanders
Portuguese (not sure about this one, I think some Madeirans and Azoreans have minor SSA)
Basques
Danes

SOMEWHAT HOMOGENOUS
Spaniards
Poles
Norwegians
Swedes
Finns
Lithuanians
Latvians
Estonians
Poles
Slovaks
Czechs
Hungarians
Serbs
Croats
Slovenes
Bosniaks (although it's questionable whether they count as European in a civilizational sense)
Albanians (ditto for a large proportion of them, although ~1/6 of them are unquestionably civilizationally European)
Bulgarians
Romanians
Ukrainians
Belarusians

NOT AT ALL HOMOGENOUS
Italians
Jews
Greeks
Germans
French
Russians (or maybe they are more homogenous than this? I know they assimilated a lot of foreign peoples in the imperial and Soviet era)

Is this basically right?

[Alenka]

Only counting those who identify as ethnically X, not recent migrant groups or groups that see themselves as ethnically distinct like Gypsies, or Lapps.

ESSENTIALLY HOMOGENOUS
Irish
Welsh
Cornish
Scottish
Manx
Icelanders
Portuguese (not sure about this one, I think some Madeirans and Azoreans have minor SSA)
Basques
Danes

SOMEWHAT HOMOGENOUS
Spaniards
Poles
Norwegians
Swedes
Finns
Lithuanians
Latvians
Estonians
Poles
Slovaks
Czechs
Hungarians
Serbs
Croats
Slovenes
Bosniaks (although it's questionable whether they count as European in a civilizational sense)
Albanians (ditto for a large proportion of them, although ~1/6 of them are unquestionably civilizationally European)
Bulgarians
Romanians
Ukrainians
Belarusians

NOT AT ALL HOMOGENOUS
Italians
Jews
Greeks
Germans
French
Russians (or maybe they are more homogenous than this? I know they assimilated a lot of foreign peoples in the imperial and Soviet era)

Is this basically right?
You grouped Russians wrongly, considering your criteria...

Only counting those who identify as ethnically X, not recent migrant groups or groups that see themselves as ethnically distinct like Gypsies, or Lapps.
... ethnic Russians are "somewhat homogenous" in fact.

Mixed people in Russia often tend to identify with their hon-Russian ancestry.
Hence ethnic mixing in Russia affected their minorities more than the ethnic Russians.

[vader]

On the topic of Portuguese, I’d say, although sure there is some individual variability, it is pretty damn homogenous. However, slight variability will occur in even the most homogenous of areas. Madeira and Azores were uninhabited and, hence, were populated by mainlanders. The SSA can be found from North to South on the mainland, not just islanders; most mainlanders don’t get any, while some do. But the point is islanders don't necessarily form a unique cluster away from mainlanders based off what I've seen.

On the contrary, I think of Italy as an example of more regional differences, and I think of them because they are South European cousins. That peninsula has more drastic regional differences than all of Iberia. I will say, though, that on the grand scale of genetic distances… it isn't nearly as different as people exaggerate. When you hyper-fixate clusters on PCAs, you can forget how close Eurasians are to each other vs other global populations.

[Johnson Reed]

On the topic of Portuguese, I’d say, although sure there is some individual variability, it is pretty damn homogenous. However, slight variability will occur in even the most homogenous of areas. Madeira and Azores were uninhabited and, hence, were populated by mainlanders. The SSA can be found from North to South on the mainland, not just islanders; most mainlanders don’t get any, while some do. But the point is islanders don't necessarily form a unique cluster away from mainlanders based off what I've seen.

On the contrary, I think of Italy as an example of more regional differences, and I think of them because they are South European cousins. That peninsula has more drastic regional differences than all of Iberia. I will say, though, that on the grand scale of genetic distances… it isn't nearly as different as people exaggerate. When you hyper-fixate clusters on PCAs, you can forget how close Eurasians are to each other vs other global populations.

I know that mainland Portuguese are all very similar, but I thought that Madeirans were like 95% Mainland, 5% SSA.

[Johnson Reed]

You grouped Russians wrongly, considering your criteria...

... ethnic Russians are "somewhat homogenous" in fact.

Mixed people in Russia often tend to identify with their hon-Russian ancestry.
Hence ethnic mixing in Russia affected their minorities more than the ethnic Russians.

Isn't there varying degrees of Siberian ancestry in ethnic Russians?

[Alenka]

Isn't there varying degrees of Siberian ancestry in ethnic Russians?
They pretty much all have it, but it's not a lot, and the regional differences are not significant.

[Leto]

You grouped Russians wrongly, considering your criteria...

... ethnic Russians are "somewhat homogenous" in fact.

Mixed people in Russia often tend to identify with their hon-Russian ancestry.
Hence ethnic mixing in Russia affected their minorities more than the ethnic Russians.
You are wrong. More often they would identify as Russian, maybe except for cases where one has a Muslim or Armenian father. In Russia you'd often hear that being Russian has little or nothing to do with genetics but rather with culture and mentality.

[Leto]

Isn't there varying degrees of Siberian ancestry in ethnic Russians?
It varies from like 1 percent to over 10 percent with the average being approximately at 5 percent. For such a big territory and population the Russian people are relatively homogeneous, although there has been some more mixing in the last few decades due to migrations and urbanization.

[Russki]

It varies from like 1 percent to over 10 percent

1 percent doesn't exist among Russians and even in other parts of Central-Eastern Europe. It's a level of a population which is pretty far away from Siberia such as the English.

In admixtools the Russian variation is never as low as 1%, but spans from 4% to 16-18% (Leshukonsky (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leshukonsky_District)).
10% is the norm for regular Northerners like Kargopol, Vologda, Kostroma, and Russians with long family roots in the Urals and West Siberia would most often be around 12-14%.

admixtools which is the gold standard for genetic studies estimates the Siberian component in the English at a residual 1%;
the Orcadians and the French at about 2% each;
Icelanders at about 3%;
Lithuanians, Norwegians, Hungarians at 4% or slightly over;
Estonians at about 5%;
Finnish average, Mordovians and Kargopol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargopolsky_District) Russians around 10% each.

Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K12b would shave off 3% or 4% from these estimations and put for example Hungarians at 1% or even 0% which would contradict a bunch of genetic studies.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1

https://i.imgur.com/lCFgp2Y.png

Keep in mind though that Nganasans are about 85% East Asian + 15% West Eurasian, so if you aim for an East Asian proportion then shave off these 15% from each target group.


Isn't there varying degrees of Siberian ancestry in ethnic Russians?

Russian_Leshukonsky for example is strongly Komi-shifted (it's a historical Komi territory) and can stretch the size of a PCA a lot, and likely make it look like the Russians are as diverse as the French and the Germans, but them and other North-Eastern Russians (Pinega (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinega), Pinezhsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinezhsky_District), Krasnoborsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnoborsky_District)) have a low proportional weight in the population.

On this North Europe PCA made in G25 from TA and Anthrogenica members the Russian blob is comparable to the Croatian and Romanian ones. This shows that most Russians fall in a more limited range, which is not quite as low on Siberian as Smolensk, and not quite as high as Arkhangelsk either. I think that Russians whose ancestors lived in the Ural region and West Siberia for several generations can stretch the Russian blob a little bit more, but either they aren't that numerous or they avoid TA and Anthrogenica for some reason.

French and German blobs are simply gigantic.

https://i.imgur.com/zIPXxe0.jpeg

[Purple Panther]

Wow. You Irish guys really do hate the English, don't you? ;)

[Alenka]

You are wrong. More often they would identify as Russian, maybe except for cases where one has a Muslim or Armenian father. In Russia you'd often hear that being Russian has little or nothing to do with genetics but rather with culture and mentality.
Not really.

Some examples...

Roman Abramovich is known rather as Jew despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Sergei Shoigu is known rather as Tuvan despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Ruslan Provodnikov is known rather as Mansi despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Margarita Mamun is known rather as Bengal despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Maya Hills (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%8F_%D0%A5%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB% D1%81) is known rather as Eskimo despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Alina Kabaeva is known rather as Tatar despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Masha Lund is known rather as Danish despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Mikhail Khodorkovsky is known rather as Jew despite being ethnically half-Russian.

... and I could go on and on.

[Leto]

Not really.

Some examples...

Roman Abramovich is known rather as Jew despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Sergei Shoigu is known rather as Tuvan despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Ruslan Provodnikov is known rather as Mansi despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Margarita Mamun is known rather as Bengal despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Maya Hills (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%8F_%D0%A5%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB% D1%81) is known rather as Eskimo despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Alina Kabaeva is known rather as Tatar despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Masha Lund is known rather as Danish despite being ethnically half-Russian.
Mikhail Khodorkovsky is known rather as Jew despite being ethnically half-Russian.

... and I could go on and on.
Who are you, woman? Since when are you an expert in Russia? Why won't you please stay in your lane and refrain from acting like an expert in other countries which aren't yours? Have all those people you listed told you how they identify? By the way Roman Abramovich is 100% Jewish, Khodorkovsky was quoted as saying I'm Russian and a Muscovite. I'm unfamiliar with a couple of the names though. Sure they're not gonna beat their chest claiming to be pure Slavic Aryans or something 'cause they know they're mixed. But I repeat: in Russia one can often hear that "Russian blood" is not even a real thing and that there are Russian Tatars, Russian Chechens and so on and so forth. Not my personal belief of course but it's quite commonplace. You should've messaged me at least once if you wanted to know something on the subject but you never did.

[Leto]

Russki, stop quoting and messaging me. My initial reply got deleted which goes to show it's not the old Apricity anymore and even a mildly expressive language is no longer allowed. Sad but then again I don't care much about TA at this point.

[Johnson Reed]

1 percent doesn't exist among Russians and even in other parts of Central-Eastern Europe. It's a level of a population which is pretty far away from Siberia such as the English.

In admixtools the Russian variation is never as low as 1%, but spans from 4% to 16-18% (Leshukonsky (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leshukonsky_District)).
10% is the norm for regular Northerners like Kargopol, Vologda, Kostroma, and Russians with long family roots in the Urals and West Siberia would most often be around 12-14%.

admixtools which is the gold standard for genetic studies estimates the Siberian component in the English at a residual 1%;
the Orcadians and the French at about 2% each;
Icelanders at about 3%;
Lithuanians, Norwegians, Hungarians at 4% or slightly over;
Estonians at about 5%;
Finnish average, Mordovians and Kargopol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargopolsky_District) Russians around 10% each.

Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad K12b would shave off 3% or 4% from these estimations and put for example Hungarians at 1% or even 0% which would contradict a bunch of genetic studies.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.19.476915v1

https://i.imgur.com/lCFgp2Y.png

Keep in mind though that Nganasans are about 85% East Asian + 15% West Eurasian, so if you aim for an East Asian proportion then shave off these 15% from each target group.



Russian_Leshukonsky for example is strongly Komi-shifted (it's a historical Komi territory) and can stretch the size of a PCA a lot, and likely make it look like the Russians are as diverse as the French and the Germans, but them and other North-Eastern Russians (Pinega (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinega), Pinezhsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinezhsky_District), Krasnoborsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnoborsky_District)) have a low proportional weight in the population.

On this North Europe PCA made in G25 from TA and Anthrogenica members the Russian blob is comparable to the Croatian and Romanian ones. This shows that most Russians fall in a more limited range, which is not quite as low on Siberian as Smolensk, and not quite as high as Arkhangelsk either. I think that Russians whose ancestors lived in the Ural region and West Siberia for several generations can stretch the Russian blob a little bit more, but either they aren't that numerous or they avoid TA and Anthrogenica for some reason.

French and German blobs are simply gigantic.

https://i.imgur.com/zIPXxe0.jpeg

I would assume the Irish are at 1% just like the English, since we have even less Germanic ancestry than they do.


Wow. You Irish guys really do hate the English, don't you? ;)

?????

[Purple Panther]

I would assume the Irish are at 1% just like the English, since we have even less Germanic ancestry than they do.



?????

You left them out of your list. There are more English counties than Cornwall. ;)

[Johnson Reed]

You left them out of your list. There are more English counties than Cornwall. ;)

It was accidental lol

[Dardanos]

Albanians are one of the most homogeneous population of europe....


Autosomal DNA

Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few rigid genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques, Finns and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of identity by descent sharing, suggesting that Albanian-speakers derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous because Greek and Macedonian samples shared much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. At the same time the sampled Italians shared nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3646727/

[cass]

Only counting those who identify as ethnically X, not recent migrant groups or groups that see themselves as ethnically distinct like Gypsies, or Lapps.

ESSENTIALLY HOMOGENOUS
Irish
Welsh
Cornish
Scottish
Manx
Icelanders
Portuguese (not sure about this one, I think some Madeirans and Azoreans have minor SSA)
Basques
Danes

SOMEWHAT HOMOGENOUS
Spaniards
Poles
Norwegians
Swedes
Finns
Lithuanians
Latvians
Estonians
Poles
Slovaks
Czechs
Hungarians
Serbs
Croats
Slovenes
Bosniaks (although it's questionable whether they count as European in a civilizational sense)
Albanians (ditto for a large proportion of them, although ~1/6 of them are unquestionably civilizationally European)
Bulgarians
Romanians
Ukrainians
Belarusians

NOT AT ALL HOMOGENOUS
Italians
Jews
Greeks
Germans
French
Russians (or maybe they are more homogenous than this? I know they assimilated a lot of foreign peoples in the imperial and Soviet era)

Is this basically right?

And where are the genetic calculations?

[celticdragongod]

Wow. You Irish guys really do hate the English, don't you? ;)

You would hate them too if they did the crap to you that they did to the Irish for the last 800 years.

[Purple Panther]

You would hate them too if they did the crap to you that they did to the Irish for the last 800 years.

Up the IRA. Am I right?

[Johnson Reed]

You would hate them too if they did the crap to you that they did to the Irish for the last 800 years.

Right now, I'm far more concerned about migrants than I am about the British. For all the British did to us in the past, they aren't an existential threat to our future as an Irish nation. Migrants are. Ireland has gone from 94% Irish to 76% Irish in 2 decades (2002-2022), and every year, approximately 80,000 foreigners total (about 2% of the ethnically Irish population of Ireland) are imported into Ireland.

We can worry about the North later, mass migration is an immediate existential threat to our nation that must be given top priority in solving.