New French study: Human genetic structure in Northwest France

[Friends of Oliver Society]

The demographical history of France remains largely understudied despite its central role toward understanding modern population structure across Western Europe. Here, by exploring publicly available Europe-wide genotype datasets together with the genomes of 3234 present-day and six newly sequenced medieval individuals from Northern France, we found extensive fine-scale population structure across Brittany and the downstream Loire basin and increased population differentiation between the northern and southern sides of the river Loire, associated with higher proportions of steppe vs. Neolithic-related ancestry. We also found increased allele sharing between individuals from Western Brittany and those associated with the Bell Beaker complex. Our results emphasise the need for investigating local populations to better understand the distribution of rare (putatively deleterious) variants across space and the importance of common genetic legacy in understanding the sharing of disease-related alleles between Brittany and people from western Britain and Ireland.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-51087-1

[~Elizabeth~]

Galicia, Spain is mentioned once.



This ultra-fine-scale structure with geographically restricted clusters resembles that observed in the region of Galicia, Spain and emphasises the need for whole-genome sequencing studies on local populations in order to better understand the distribution of rare, and likely more deleterious, variants across space.

[Flashball]

Indeed, by inferring ancestry profiles from a set of surrogate sources with GLOBETROTTER, we highlighted the ancestry contribution from Irish populations into present-day Bretons (~24%) and found relatively smaller contributions from Wales or Cornwall (~9- and ~3-fold, respectively). Importantly, we detected some Irish ancestry across all the French regions we surveyed, leading us to hypothesise a long history of shared ancestry likely on the basis of the genetic makeup of the Celtic (Iron-Age) Gaul.


Which would also mean that their model is not perfect and that they find an Irish contribution among non-Bretons populations, and according to them this could rather have to do with the fact that the Irish share a contribution related to the populations of the Iron Age of France, and not that all Bretons and non-Breton French people necessarily have an Irish contribution.

Is it the Bretons and French who have a strictly recent Irish contribution? or is it the Irish who have an Iron Age contribution (at varying levels) from the British Isles who had between 30 and 5% Hallstatt-related contribution from France?

In reality, yes it is possible that some western Bretons have more recent contributions from the British Isles, but one can also say that it is more likely that they mostly descend from Iron Age populations of Brittany who had a greater steppe contribution than the neighboring Gauls and endogamy would also have preserved this slightly higher steppe contribution, like the Basques have better preserved the WHG contribution with endogamy

I do not believe, in my case, that the Bretons of western France have 50-70% strictly Irish contribution, but more 70-80% extra steppe contributions from Iron Age France (from extra steppic gaulish people) + some more recent contributions from the British Isles, but less than what the independentists believe.

[Grace O'Malley]

Which would also mean that their model is not perfect and that they find an Irish contribution among non-Bretons populations, and according to them this could rather have to do with the fact that the Irish share a contribution related to the populations of the Iron Age of France, and not that all Bretons and non-Breton French people necessarily have an Irish contribution.

Is it the Bretons and French who have a strictly recent Irish contribution? or is it the Irish who have an Iron Age contribution (at varying levels) from the British Isles who had between 30 and 5% Hallstatt-related contribution from France?

In reality, yes it is possible that some western Bretons have more recent contributions from the British Isles, but one can also say that it is more likely that they mostly descend from Iron Age populations of Brittany who had a greater steppe contribution than the neighboring Gauls and endogamy would also have preserved this slightly higher steppe contribution, like the Basques have better preserved the WHG contribution with endogamy

I do not believe, in my case, that the Bretons of western France have 50-70% strictly Irish contribution, but more 70-80% extra steppe contributions from Iron Age France (from extra steppic gaulish people) + some more recent contributions from the British Isles, but less than what the independentists believe.

In the study they are saying this "Irish" signal is not explained by recent migration but likely due to shared Bell Beaker ancestry. There is some recent but limited geneflow from Britain which would be the Cornish and Welsh which is why there is shared drift with Southwestern Welsh (Dyfed) whereas those south of the River Loire share most drift with Basques.


To measure the relationship between the genetic clusters found in Northwestern France and other European populations, we used the outgroup f3-statistics to assess the genetic drift shared by pairs of populations relative to the outgroup population (Mbuti)47,48. Given that this statistic reflects the length of the branch from the internal node to the outgroup (connecting the pair of populations being tested), it is not affected by lineage-specific genetic drift, contrarily to FST. We found that most French clusters located north of the river Loire share the largest drift with Southwestern Welsh populations (i.e., from Dyfed), whereas those located south to the river Loire share the largest drift with the Basques (Fig. 4a, Supplementary Data 1). The f4-statistics of the form f4(Mbuti, French subgroup; Dyfed, X), which should produce significantly positive values when the tested population shares more alleles with X than Dyfed, show that the French subgroups from areas south to the river Loire consistently share more alleles with the Basques than with the Southwestern Welsh. Conversely, those located north to the river Loire share the largest amount of alleles with Southwestern Welsh and other populations from Great Britain and Scandinavia (Fig. 4b, Fig. S24).

[Flashball]

In the study they are saying this "Irish" signal is not explained by recent migration but likely due to shared Bell Beaker ancestry. There is some recent but limited geneflow from Britain which would be the Cornish and Welsh which is why there is shared drift with Southwestern Welsh (Dyfed) whereas those south of the River Loire share most drift with Basques.

Thanks, yes that seems to be the case.

By the way, I want to point out that many Gaulish samples have an interesting WHG rate, it is quite fascinating to see that the WHG rate seems relatively distributed in an almost homogeneous way, for example we can find Berry samples at 13-15% WHG, Basses-Alpes and Normands could have the same also.

I think that the excess of French EEF (not EEF from other areas but strictly EEF from France, which have more WHG) can be interpreted as a Basque-like signal, and some Gauls, even from the northwest and east, have this signal.
WHG is also more NW shifted that early steppic. Lacking the CHG thing. That's why my brother, 75% northern french and 25% sardinian, is more close to a central and southwestern french (non basque area, they are more central like) that to a portuguese, even with only 32-34% corded, because of his 12% WHG.

We could say that the "Basque like" part is a kind of paleo-French contribution (not "French" but which participated in the ethnogenesis of the Gauls, because it is quite present among them, and of the French by extension)

Here are three interesting samples, one is Norman, second Berrichon from Western north france, and the other is a Provençal from the Basses Alpes and my father (north of france), they have a relatively high French EEF rate (Anatolian + WHG), and this French EEF is more Basque than strictly sardo, because more WHG (20-30%).

Target: VictorLambert(Normand)
Distance: 3.7253% / 0.03725259
45.4 TUR_Barcin_N
39.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.6 WHG

Target: BerryCentralFrance
Distance: 3.3053% / 0.03305317
49.4 TUR_Barcin_N
34.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.0 WHG

Target: 94%04BassesAlpes6%Gard
Distance: 3.4791% / 0.03479087
50.2 TUR_Barcin_N
36.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.8 WHG

Target: Father(PicardieNorthernFrance)
Distance: 5.7780% / 0.05777986
44.2 TUR_Barcin_N
42.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.0 WHG



Some gaulish:
You can say more or less that ethnic French people, from north to south, from west to east, have the same local diversity in terms of EEF (Anatolian + more WHG) + Steppic like distribution (Beaker), with the genetic drift linked to the endogamy of a small population.
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723179876-gaule-300-100.jpg
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723179864-gaule-300-100occitanie.png



The Bell Beakers of France have partly mixed with these EEFs of France.

It is quite possible that the West Bretons have retained a greater Bell Beaker contribution through population reduction, isolation and endogamy. Some Gaulish samples have more steppic that the majority.

Some West Bretons are located between the South-East English whose average contribution of Iron Age French is 43% (according to one study) and the Romance-speaking Northern French. My father is close to a bronze age sample from Bretagne.

[Upsilander]

In the study they are saying this "Irish" signal is not explained by recent migration but likely due to shared Bell Beaker ancestry. There is some recent but limited geneflow from Britain which would be the Cornish and Welsh which is why there is shared drift with Southwestern Welsh (Dyfed) whereas those south of the River Loire share most drift with Basques.

Anything below or left of the Loire river is more Basque shifted. This makes a lot of sense from my findings, it struck me recently posting French athletes in the Olympics. It almost looks like a different country was drawn there by the river.

With that said, their second affinity is still with the Netherlands, equally to Welsh. Essentially in this area, they are Basque with a northern input, which shows from time to time as well. The affinity is much lower with Spain and Italy than all the northern countries listed, even Finland! So it's really an Acquitanian thing.

It would be so interesting to have the same study protocol in the East for me personally, i think some phenotypes in the central East and the Southeast are sometimes unbelievably northern looking. I even wonder if not more than in the Northeast and why.


https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-024-51087-1/MediaObjects/41467_2024_51087_Fig4_HTML.png?as=webp

[Johnson Reed]

France isn't really a linguistically or ethnically cohesive country, no offense to any French people here.

Occitans and Northern French are nothing alike genetically, Bretons are a Celtic people who are very genetically distinct, and Alsatians are Germans.

It makes perfect sense for Bretons to have Insular Celtic ancestry, where do you think they got their language from?

[Flashball]

France isn't really a linguistically or ethnically cohesive country, no offense to any French people here.

Occitans and Northern French are nothing alike genetically, Bretons are a Celtic people who are very genetically distinct, and Alsatians are Germans.

It makes perfect sense for Bretons to have Insular Celtic ancestry, where do you think they got their language from?

Dumb.

My french sample from basses alpes are more close to a flemish that to north italians.
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723184957-provencevsfrance11.png

French diversity = same diversity among gaulish.
Some gaulish:
You can say more or less that ethnic French people, from north to south, from west to east, have the same local diversity in terms of EEF (Anatolian + more WHG) + Steppic like distribution (Beaker), with the genetic drift linked to the endogamy of a small population.
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723179876-gaule-300-100.jpg
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723179864-gaule-300-100occitanie.png


Next.

[Flashball]

Anything below or left of the Loire river is more Basque shifted. This makes a lot of sense from my findings, it struck me recently posting French athletes in the Olympics. It almost looks like a different country was drawn there by the river.

With that said, their second affinity is still with the Netherlands, equally to Welsh. Essentially in this area, they are Basque with a northern input, which shows from time to time as well. The affinity is much lower with Spain and Italy than all the northern countries listed, even Finland! So it's really an Acquitanian thing.

It would be so interesting to have the same study protocol in the East for me personally, i think some phenotypes in the central East and the Southeast are sometimes unbelievably northern looking. I even wonder if not more than in the Northeast and why.


https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-024-51087-1/MediaObjects/41467_2024_51087_Fig4_HTML.png?as=webp

Dumb ass fuck.


Some gaulish:
You can say more or less that ethnic French people, from north to south, from west to east, have the same local diversity in terms of EEF (Anatolian + more WHG) + Steppic like distribution (Beaker), with the genetic drift linked to the endogamy of a small population.
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723179876-gaule-300-100.jpg
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723179864-gaule-300-100occitanie.png

modern french = gaulish

Phenotype = recent thing

You are a dumbass.

[Flashball]

Anything below or left of the Loire river is more Basque shifted. This makes a lot of sense from my findings, it struck me recently posting French athletes in the Olympics. It almost looks like a different country was drawn there by the river.

With that said, their second affinity is still with the Netherlands, equally to Welsh. Essentially in this area, they are Basque with a northern input, which shows from time to time as well. The affinity is much lower with Spain and Italy than all the northern countries listed, even Finland! So it's really an Acquitanian thing.

It would be so interesting to have the same study protocol in the East for me personally, i think some phenotypes in the central East and the Southeast are sometimes unbelievably northern looking. I even wonder if not more than in the Northeast and why.


https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-024-51087-1/MediaObjects/41467_2024_51087_Fig4_HTML.png?as=webp

This is a southern french (old french with a genealogy, a real genealogy)
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723185314-photo-2023-04-30-20-01-555.jpg

This is a northern french (old french with a genealogy, a real genealogy)
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2024/32/5/1723185243-11.jpg


French are more homogenous that Italians and Spaniard (with their north africans blood).
Next. Tu n'y connais rien, encore un fils de pute d'indépendantiste qui rejette l'existence des Français de souche et la continuité génétique avec les Gaulois !

[Upsilander]

modern french = gaulish

Phenotype = recent thing

You are a dumbass.

French are more homogenous that Italians and Spaniard (with their north africans blood).
Next. Tu n'y connais rien, encore un fils de pute d'indépendantiste qui rejette l'existence des Français de souche et la continuité génétique avec les Gaulois !

Do you have brain palsy or something to not be able to discuss a study "tranquillement" and switch on with the insults right away?

The f3 statistics of the study are so vastly superior to your G25 model, it shows affinity not admixture. The thing that makes Irish similar to Ukrainian and other nonsenses such as Poles more northern Euro than a Dutch, Dane or a Norwegian. Please, you don't see it, but im rolling on the floor. The calculator is a good tool for amateurs to create other smart models. The model in vogue with 3 components from 15 000 - 8000 years ago, to Russia Samara, can only go as far (not very far).

Im not independentist at all. What the hell lol. I think a Gaulish/Frank ethnicity exists, no doubt about that but there are variations within it, like it is expected of the largest country in Europe that aggregated smaller kingdoms, just like Germany. I mean the Normandy department alone is larger than Slovenia, what else do you expect? Germany has some big variations as well, Italy the largest by far. This kind of study is even more taboo in Germany than France. To prevent WW3 or else :picard1:

This sucks for both.

[J.S.]

BS as usual...
https://i.imgur.com/nb6WI2r.png
https://i.imgur.com/PUIvtlO.png
https://i.imgur.com/TUMkbsY.png
https://i.imgur.com/MEBQEg8.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZyxocTwfiA
*The Croissant is a linguistic transitional zone between the Langue d'oc (also referred to as Occitan) dialects and the Langue d'oïl dialects, situated in the centre of France .

[Beowulf]

Subscribed to this thread.

[gixajo]

Subscribed to this thread.

Me too. :)

There is also nothing new that we do not know, the French have a variation that shows their history and geographical situation, which means that they can be modeled based on two components, one southern Iberian/Basque-like and the other northern celtic(Irish)/Germanic(Dutch-German)n-like, and which, depending on the region, tend more towards one. or another.

[J.S.]

Me too. :)

There is also nothing new that we do not know, the French have a variation that shows their history and geographical situation, which means that they can be modeled based on two components, one southern Iberian/Basque-like and the other northern celtic(Irish)/Germanic(Dutch-German)n-like, and which, depending on the region, tend more towards one. or another.

Exactly...

[J.S.]

Do you have brain palsy or something to not be able to discuss a study "tranquillement" and switch on with the insults right away?

The f3 statistics of the study are so vastly superior to your G25 model, it shows affinity not admixture. The thing that makes Irish similar to Ukrainian and other nonsenses such as Poles more northern Euro than a Dutch, Dane or a Norwegian. Please, you don't see it, but im rolling on the floor. The calculator is a good tool for amateurs to create other smart models. The model in vogue with 3 components from 15 000 - 8000 years ago, to Russia Samara, can only go as far (not very far).

Im not independentist at all. What the hell lol. I think a Gaulish/Frank ethnicity exists, no doubt about that but there are variations within it, like it is expected of the largest country in Europe that aggregated smaller kingdoms, just like Germany. I mean the Normandy department alone is larger than Slovenia, what else do you expect? Germany has some big variations as well, Italy the largest by far. This kind of study is even more taboo in Germany than France. To prevent WW3 or else :picard1:

This sucks for both.
ALVES & al 2024
https://i.imgur.com/nb6WI2r.png
GRETZINGER & al 2021
https://i.imgur.com/3QXFTLj.png
https://i.imgur.com/fjmYZ5b.png


I think a Gaulish/Frank ethnicity exists, no doubt about that but there are variations within it, like it is expected of the largest country in Europe
Agree with you on that part of your answerd, but not fully conviced by the end of your sentence
that aggregated smaller kingdoms
The so-called Germanic invaders took possession of the territory of Gaul & remodeled its internal borders but nevertheless, they did not create an entity from nothing & we do not know what their genetic impact was on local populations; similarly we do not know when or which migratory episode dates back to the affinity shown by the F3 statistics
https://i.imgur.com/e3yBMYO.png

[Upsilander]

ALVES & al 2024
https://i.imgur.com/nb6WI2r.png
GRETZINGER & al 2021
https://i.imgur.com/3QXFTLj.png
https://i.imgur.com/fjmYZ5b.png


Agree with you on that part of your answerd, but not fully conviced by the end of your sentence
The so-called Germanic invaders took possession of the territory of Gaul & remodeled its internal borders but nevertheless, they did not create an entity from nothing & we do not know what their genetic impact was on local populations; similarly we do not know when or which migratory episode dates back to the affinity shown by the F3 statistics
https://i.imgur.com/e3yBMYO.png

Im ok with all at, im not sure what are you discussing based on the message of mine you quote. I have not denied a continuity with the Iron age, it seems pretty remarquable in France. Only that there is a clear shift south of the Loire, and probably west of it too, as the river goes south. I wasn't suggesting it is recent, it would be weird, since it's really Basque and nothing else (even Iberian is strongly rejected), it should always have been there.

I was talking about kingdoms to expediate the matter, it's more a thing of tribes, territories and just people concentrated in an area, that the Franks managed to submit/unify, or form some alliances with at least initially, like with the Burgonds.

[J.S.]

I was talking about kingdoms to expediate the matter, it's more a thing of tribes, territories and just people concentrated in an area, that the Franks managed to submit/unify, or form some alliances with at least initially, like with the Burgonds.
Yes, but we need to know the genetic impact of those Germanic tribes on the Gaulish gene pool. Roman one was not as big as every one used to think.

Where "North" ends and "South" begins? More than a clear shift, accoprding to the Fst we are in possesssion of, it is pretty obvious there is more a continuum than a shift, except as shown by the Fst between the Northwestern clusters; the clear shift, due to Loire River as a geographic barrier, is located at the estuary/delta. We do not know more with certainty upstream Loire River.

[Upsilander]

Yes, but we need to know the genetic impact of those Germanic tribes on the Gaulish gene pool. Roman one was not as big as every one used to think.


My intuition is that it was located in a few locations where they actually settle, it's not like the Franks invaded physically all the territories of France, they simply replaced some Gaul and Visigoth yokes, with political and cultural control over the people. Roman surely was even more, simply cultural, i have read the same conclusion in the study. Burgonds might have been actually more impactful as it was a smaller territory, with less velleity to expand. Maybe because they were happy with the area they claimed already, probably like Alemanni.


Where "North" ends and "South" begins? More than a clear shift, accoprding to the Fst we are in possesssion of, it is pretty obvious there is more a continuum than a shift, except as shown by the Fst between the Northwestern clusters; the clear shift, due to Loire River as a geographic barrier, is located at the estuary/delta. We do not know more with certainty upstream Loire River.

This is why they use f3 stats instead of fst to judge that. f3 is more about what to add for X to get Y, is it A,B,C,D,..if B, by how much B is preferred, compared to A,C,D.



To measure the relationship between the genetic clusters found in Northwestern France and other European populations, we used the outgroup f3-statistics to assess the genetic drift shared by pairs of populations relative to the outgroup population (Mbuti)47,48. Given that this statistic reflects the length of the branch from the internal node to the outgroup (connecting the pair of populations being tested), it is not affected by lineage-specific genetic drift, contrarily to FST. We found that most French clusters located north of the river Loire share the largest drift with Southwestern Welsh populations (i.e., from Dyfed), whereas those located south to the river Loire share the largest drift with the Basques

The Loire is just the location where the "tilt" happens, where instead of sharing more with Welsh, they start to share more with Basque. It doesn't mean they don't have an affinity to Wesh at all anymore, but apparently, their "northern" affinity shifts more east as well. It's not Cornish and Irish first after Welsh, but Netherlands, small but notable difference. It may have a justification by the extreme western drift of Basque to compensate. It's not like south of Loire all of a sudden they are Basque either, they still have something else more northern and this will simply fade maybe not linearily but progressively when arriving down to Bayonne or something like this.

From another study i saw on this very forum while lurking, the northern element only disappears really far south. It is only the bordering regions of the Pyrenean that don't have it anymore (or very low level), then shoots up quickly past that.

[J.S.]

This is why they use f3 stats instead of fst to judge that. f3 is more about what to add for X to get Y, is it A,B,C,D,..if B, by how much B is preferred, compared to A,C,D.




The Loire is just the location where the "tilt" happens, where instead of sharing more with Welsh, they start to share more with Basque. It doesn't mean they don't have an affinity to Wesh at all anymore, but apparently, their "northern" affinity shifts more east as well. It's not Cornish and Irish first after Welsh, but Netherlands, small but notable difference. It may have a justification by the extreme western drift of Basque to compensate. It's not like south of Loire all of a sudden they are Basque either, they still have something else more northern and this will simply fade maybe not linearily but progressively when arriving down to Bayonne or something like this.

From another study i saw on this very forum while lurking, the northern element only disappears really far south. It is only the bordering regions of the Pyrenean that don't have it anymore (or very low level), then shoots up quickly past that.

I agree with you. If you pay closely attention to the F3 stats, WBR share more drift with the Basques 29,1 than NOU 29,04. Anyway, Dyfeld and Basque come in the top 3 with WBR for each of the local populations/clusters.

[Flashball]

I agree with you. If you pay closely attention to the F3 stats, WBR share more drift with the Basques 29,1 than NOU 29,04. Anyway, Dyfeld and Basque come in the top 3 with WBR for each of the local populations/clusters.

This

[Johnson Reed]

Dumb.

My french sample from basses alpes are more close to a flemish that to north italians.


Venetians are part Slavic.

[Upsilander]

I agree with you. If you pay closely attention to the F3 stats, WBR share more drift with the Basques 29,1 than NOU 29,04. Anyway, Dyfeld and Basque come in the top 3 with WBR for each of the local populations/clusters.

By this standard, WBR has better affinity with Norway than Basque. The other regions are lower or even France as an average, because they are already that for the most part and you don't need that on top of it. Until you get to very negative associations like Finland, Sardinia, Spain and Italy. Again, compared to Welsh.

[J.S.]

By this standard, WBR has better affinity with Norway than Basque. The other regions are lower or even France as an average, because they are already that for the most part and you don't need that on top of it. Until you get to very negative associations like Finland, Sardinia, Spain and Italy. Again, compared to Welsh.

What do you make of it?
https://i.imgur.com/XQCkiFd.png

[Upsilander]

What do you make of it?
https://i.imgur.com/XQCkiFd.png

Transitional low steppe? Where the sample came from already?