Ashkenazi Jews are only 1/4 Israelite

[Johnson Reed]

https://i.ibb.co/vk7dp2F/Oy-vey.png

I guess it's time for them to replace gefilte fish with lasagna.

[Indarra]

Are ashkenazi jews actually hebrews or just a bunch of central/eastern europeans?

[Johnson Reed]

Are ashkenazi jews actually hebrews or just a bunch of central/eastern europeans?

They seem to be mostly South Italians with Hebrew and Central/Eastern European admixture.

[Andullero]

https://i.ibb.co/vk7dp2F/Oy-vey.png

I guess it's time for them to replace gefilte fish with lasagna.

You know where to get the Pallie average by chance?

[Indarra]

They seem to be mostly South Italians with Hebrew and Central/Eastern European admixture.

Maybe 'cause of their Khazarian origins, but not hebrews. Sephardic jews are more hebrews by far.

[Johnson Reed]

You know where to get the Pallie average by chance?

Palestinians? You won't get a good result modeling them with Samaritans, Calabrians, and Czechs.


Maybe 'cause of their Khazarian origins, but not hebrews. Sephardic jews are more hebrews by far.

Ashkenazi Jews are at most 2-3% Khazarian and most likely less than 1%.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I believe it's something like 40% on average.

They get real mad when you bring up how Palestinians are more native to the land than they are. They repeat the false claim from a book that even Israeli historians call garbage that was destroyed by Norman Finkelstein in the early 80s (I forget the name and author) that the land was without people except Bedouins and that Arabs starting arriving after Zionist Jews made the desert bloom because they wanted better wages, which is just an absurd claim.

The reality is what today is called Israel and Palestine was not devoid of population. The belief that the Romans deported all Jews and the land has been sitting there empty is laughable. Palestinians are predominately Jews who had converted to Christianity and Islam, while Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc. are descended from Jews living in communities they had formed throughout the known world for trading purposes over centuries and Jews the Romans expelled from cities, such as Jerusalem, because it's in cities where the brains of a political opposition will be found.

[Johnson Reed]

I believe it's something like 40% on average.


Only if you use North Italians instead of South Italians. South Italians make more sense, since Imperial Roman Italy was genetically South Italian-like, not North Italian-like, and Jews mixed with Italians in Imperial Rome.

[Leto]

The Calabrians are Southern as a mofo, so there's a good chunk of East Med embedded in that component.

[vandor]

Jews is not a regular tribe/nation, both now and when they were chosen Israelite people out of tribes. Regular national measures won't work with them, and yes they're Jews unless they have direct Jewish ancestry defined by mother, nothing else needed.

[Leto]

Ashkenazi Jews are at most 2-3% Khazarian and most likely less than 1%.
I'm so tired of seeing the Khazarian bullshit over and over again. A fucking old Gedmatch calculator can easily disprove it. Yet those idiots keep repeating it to this day. There is a great article by Ron Unz about the origins of Jews. He's of Jewish descent himself but starkly dissident.

[Dušan]

Are ashkenazi jews actually hebrews or just a bunch of central/eastern europeans?

They are not central/eastern Europeans geneticaly, although they immigrated and lived in these regions.

They are Levantine-Italian mix.

[Dušan]

Only if you use North Italians instead of South Italians. South Italians make more sense, since Imperial Roman Italy was genetically South Italian-like, not North Italian-like, and Jews mixed with Italians in Imperial Rome.

How about this model:

cca 35% Samaritan, almost 60% central Italian and few percentage Slavic.

And no Slavic admixture among those in France and Germany, what is logical.
Later they moved from FR and DE to Slavic lands.

https://i.imgur.com/7eBOAYW.png

[Abriekman]

They are not central/eastern Europeans geneticaly, although they immigrated and lived in these regions.

They are Levantine-Italian mix.

They have some Slavic admixture but it's about 10% and only present in Eastern European Jews

[Dušan]

They have some Slavic admixture but it's about 10% and only present in Eastern European Jews

Yes, see my post above.

[Demirkazık]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

[rothaer]

They seem to be mostly South Italians with Hebrew and Central/Eastern European admixture.


(...)

For unveiling the origin you should only use Ashkenazi_Germany, because they are the most pure Ashkenazis. Historical records tell that they mostly came from Italy but also somewhat from France to the Rhineland where they ultimately formed.

You can model them roughly as 50% Northern Italy and 50% Levant, which is preferred by many, mostly Jewish, scholars. The thing is that this is somewhat arbitrary and the modelling that gives the highest Levant proportion. Additionally, such a model is ahistorical as there were no big old Jewish communities known in Northern Italy where Jews could have picked up all non-Levant DNA. But they were in Southern Italy. And if you use Southern Italy instead of Northern Italy you get roughly 90% Southern Italy and 10% Levant. In the somewhat newer paper on the Erfurt Jews there is even carefully stated that such a modelling would fit a little bit better than the mentioned hitherto 50:50 model. If you model with Greek and (pre-Turkic) Anatolians you get even less Levant, ofc.

I guess that the Ashkenazi Jews in ancestry were 90+% converts from the Eastern half of the Roman Empire including Southern Italy and that they were genetically essentially identical to the Christians in the Roman Empire per abt. 300 AD. Both groups initially fed from the same source. First you had conversions in huge numbers to Judaism in the Roman Empire and later you had mass conversions from Judaism to Christianity. But in contrast to Christians Jews became "frozen" at abt. 300 AD. As for Ashkenazi Jews they might well be 90% converts from Southern Italy in ancestry.

Just anectodally I add a pic of the pagan Pompeii banker (sic!) Lucius Caecilius Iucundus from 79 AD. I consider him looking textbook Ashkenazi. Such folks may later have become Jewish and even later, when Jews mass converted to Christianity, have remained Jewish. Christianity was a kind of Jewish social-revolutionary movement that offered forgiveness and a re-start. It attracted have-nots and prohibited taking interest in case of money lending. It may not have been that attractive to well established Jews.

https://i.imgur.com/he6gBdy.jpeg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Caecilius_Iucundus

[Gallop]

Interestingly I had two Calabrians appear upstream of my results in Yfull, they must not have been long ago, I had seen them but at the time I was on other subjects. Downstream I have Ashkenazi and now upstream there are two Calabrese from Regio upstream, I have no idea what religion they are or how to interpret my situation right there in the middle next to a Dutchman.

It also happens to me that as a Spaniard, some experts on the subject of Central or Northern Europe do not consider or it seems that they do not want to accept or it is impossible or taboo for them any relation of Spain with the rest of Europe, especially Central or Northern Europe and even France, in relation to the fact that my haplogroup in particular could have been brought to Spain by someone from another European country, so as a Spaniard my haplogroup must be Phoenician or Sephardic and this is proving to be a problem for my research. In fact, In fact, in any given situation, I don't see any other Spanish flag except mine and my father's.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7452/

[celticdragongod]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.02198223 Celtic:Insular:Roscommon
0.03214916 Germanic:Zealand
0.03374496 Germanic:Öland
0.03474729 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
0.03552748 Germanic:Nordland
0.07483820 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
0.12276205 Balkan:Moesian
0.12718871 Roman:Rome
0.13253615 Balto-Slavic:Baltic
0.13311164 Roman:Picenum
0.18181039 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
0.20745303 Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe
0.21397480 Caucasian
0.22665012 Canaanite
0.33838390 Turkic:Oghuz

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 1.9079% / 0.01907933
62.4 Celtic:Insular:Roscommon
19.2 Germanic:Zealand
9.0 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
6.4 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
3.0 Balkan:Moesian

[Dušan]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

Good model

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.5172% / 0.02517214
48.8 Balto-Slavic
34.6 Balkan
11.8 Anatolian
2.8 Celtic
2.0 Turkic


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.5172% / 0.02517214
34.6 Balkan:Moesian
27.0 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
21.8 Balto-Slavic:Baltic
11.8 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
2.8 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
2.0 Turkic:Oghuz





If too northern and distant Baltic removed.


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.6653% / 0.02665287
59.0 Balto-Slavic
27.8 Balkan
8.6 Anatolian
2.0 Roman
1.4 Turkic
1.2 Caucasian

[Jankec]

I consider some Jewish groups as very strange, like Ethiopian Jews who are Black, Bukharian Jews from Uzebekistan, there are even Jews in India and China. All of them have settled Israel and live there now. I don't know how these groups were created and whether they are related to other Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardi). I guess they are not.
There are also fake Jews in Israel who are actually Russians or Ukrainians.

[Gallop]

We obtain only two results, for autosomal DNA it will be impossible for us to obtain results comparable to those obtained by the Ashkenazis, but if hypothetically we had an Ashkenazi ancestor, perhaps even today would carry something common to said population, my father is in the distance; although it is closer than his children in two cities that he highlighted.



Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.6453% / 0.03645311
62.0 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
38.0 Roman:Picenum



Distance to: Gallop_scaled
0.05826489 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
0.07597239 Roman:Rome
0.07727461 Balkan:Moesian
0.07768141 Roman:Picenum
0.07915538 Celtic:Insular:Roscommon
0.09614739 Germanic:Öland
0.09886202 Germanic:Nordland
0.09976739 Germanic:Zealand
0.12265704 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
0.13473768 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
0.16542619 Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe
0.17613890 Canaanite
0.18402432 Balto-Slavic:Baltic
0.19679153 Caucasian
0.34438495 Turkic:Oghuz

Distance to: Father_scaled
0.06231128 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
0.07493087 Balkan:Moesian
0.07651081 Roman:Rome
0.07839541 Roman:Picenum
0.08272428 Celtic:Insular:Roscommon
0.09635306 Germanic:Öland
0.10160629 Germanic:Nordland
0.10205647 Germanic:Zealand
0.11952487 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
0.13557863 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
0.16597306 Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe
0.17658818 Canaanite
0.18002389 Balto-Slavic:Baltic
0.19965618 Caucasian
0.34571616 Turkic:Oghuz

Distance to: brother_scaled
0.06595044 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
0.07251027 Balkan:Moesian
0.07296445 Roman:Rome
0.07381655 Roman:Picenum
0.08822255 Celtic:Insular:Roscommon
0.10312134 Germanic:Öland
0.10762551 Germanic:Nordland
0.10775125 Germanic:Zealand
0.12606540 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
0.13170329 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
0.16269418 Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe
0.17180171 Canaanite
0.18649484 Balto-Slavic:Baltic
0.19948788 Caucasian
0.34968609 Turkic:Oghuz

[majevica]

Target: scaled
Distance: 2.0385% / 0.02038456
41.6 Balkan:Moesian
34.8 Balto-Slavic:Baltic
12.2 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
9.6 Germanic:Nordland
1.8 Turkic:Oghuz

[Demirkazık]

I'm so tired of seeing the Khazarian bullshit over and over again. A fucking old Gedmatch calculator can easily disprove it. Yet those idiots keep repeating it to this day. There is a great article by Ron Unz about the origins of Jews. He's of Jewish descent himself but starkly dissident.

They sometimes do have Turkic-like ancestry, though.

[Far_away]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

Very nice

Target: FarAway_scaled
Distance: 2.3374% / 0.02337383
48.2 Balkan:Moesian
40.0 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
7.6 Caucasian
4.2 Germanic:Nordland

[Sovanz]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

This Is a nice calculator.

Target: Sovanz_scaled
Distance: 2.0558% / 0.02055849
38.6 Mexican_Amerindian
29.8 Roman
27.6 Celtic
4.0 Western_African

[VC]

I had this friend many years ago who married an ethnically Jewish man who took a DNA test and was like, less than 2% Middle Eastern... and the Middle Eastern got tagged as one part Lebanese, one part Iranian. I thought that was really funny. Dude was just Scots-Irish and Slavic for all intents and purposes.

Most Jews are just white people.

[Sovanz]

This Is a nice calculator.

Target: Sovanz_scaled
Distance: 2.0558% / 0.02055849
38.6 Mexican_Amerindian
29.8 Roman
27.6 Celtic
4.0 Western_African

Fixed

Target: Sovanz_scaled
Distance: 2.1015% / 0.02101452
38.6 Mexican_Amerindian
30.2 Roman
27.4 Celtic
3.8 West_African

[Eurafricanid]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497


It's a good model:

Target: Eurafricanid-EU
Distance: 2.2433% / 0.02243332
50.8 Roman
49.2 Celtic

[Eurafricanid]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497

Btw, you should've added this for Iberia, it doesn't make a lot of difference for me, but it's going to be very good for them maybe even for the Jews:


Berber:North_Africa,-0.069432,0.146236,0.003394,-0.073644,0.033237,-0.04016,-0.031256,0.006461,0.091627,0.033349,0.010555,-0.012139,0.02334,-0.01679,0.022122,-0.017104,0.001434,-0.025718,-0.053924,0.006878,-0.020464,-0.045381,0.023417,-0.015062,0.014609


Target: Eurafricanid-EU
Distance: 2.2207% / 0.02220747
49.6 Celtic
47.0 Roman
1.8 Balkan
1.6 Berber

[Peterski]

(...) Dude was just Scots-Irish and Slavic for all intents and purposes.

Most Jews are just white people.

Well if that dude was Scots-Irish and Slavic then obviously he was not ethnically Jewish, contrary to what you claim.

Most Jews are a mixture of Middle Eastern and Southern European with minor Slavic admixture as this study shows:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1006644

https://i.imgur.com/pJPd6EX.png

[Gallop]

There is the Eurogenes Jtest


Father (FTDNA)

SOUTH_BALTIC 8.66 Pct
EAST_EURO 5.82 Pct
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 15.42 Pct
ATLANTIC 24.83 Pct
WEST_MED 23.57 Pct
ASHKENAZI 7.84 Pct (23andMe ASHKENAZI 7 Pct)
EAST_MED 8.34 Pct
WEST_ASIAN -
MIDDLE_EASTERN 2.84 Pct
SOUTH_ASIAN -
EAST_AFRICAN 0.38 Pct
EAST_ASIAN -
SIBERIAN -
WEST_AFRICAN 2.29 Pct


Mine (FTDNA)
SOUTH_BALTIC 6.35 Pct
EAST_EURO 3.89 Pct
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 18.06 Pct
ATLANTIC 26.85 Pct
WEST_MED 24.85 Pct
ASHKENAZI 5.05 Pct
EAST_MED 5.82 Pct
WEST_ASIAN 3.61 Pct
MIDDLE_EASTERN 3.4 Pct
SOUTH_ASIAN -
EAST_AFRICAN 1.54 Pct
EAST_ASIAN -
SIBERIAN 0.26 Pct
WEST_AFRICAN 0.33 Pct


Jtest Average Spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XgXrkqivuGCbYocBm_MMbdRd2tX1A68D3bl_wJN3pUM/edit?gid=1391421490#gid=1391421490

ASHKENAZI For Spain is 5.27

As my father according to company gets 7 or 7.84 his result in the table of values by countries that also have 7 or approx. are Morocco, Mozabite, Southern Italy and Tuscan with so 7, but it turns out that my father 23 and I give him a full Italian ancestor from several centuries ago in Y full downstream I have askenazis, upstream have appeared two Calabrian and there right where we do not see more Spanish flags that are the 2 ours that is as if it were one.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiZfBEmk0mBLT2eVBYbWLWZmLt0IHZfhyPpPeX6s4N-e-bKlPRfEPKg1mQQhZUxanQzBOnfh9qJOSg-bFzy-6wEMux4w25BpAo-BVHRfHdx0lZbq8WfyLuP2LuEiKF2gFK6X95R6xS1KApHxjAXLQ boWIgemQKDMiO2bRu2geXb4ukeUw558HnglXoOfUA/s1335/Italian.jpeg

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiETJY_qeHP2snieXlsGNtt8E0J9k8wgLyPVMHLZutKTr JpYekmnD-VN57BNEEcGg-1NksKa24fGBc_ZdRCcoIuwYebmp79l0MSj0geZBK9sIrD_HXlP 2JuMnobIqiB3FWYZM5zkaKQ0NylHUo0KkJgUbfDcfTMf606Sqm uhMyZwwI0sMINKbp28jjoKpI/w640-h598/calabriaYfull.png

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7452/

[Johnson Reed]

The Calabrians are Southern as a mofo, so there's a good chunk of East Med embedded in that component.

Yes, but so were Imperial Romans, and that's where Ashkenazi Jews got their Southern European component from.


How about this model:

cca 35% Samaritan, almost 60% central Italian and few percentage Slavic.

And no Slavic admixture among those in France and Germany, what is logical.
Later they moved from FR and DE to Slavic lands.

https://i.imgur.com/7eBOAYW.png

They picked up the European DNA in Imperial Rome. Imperial Roman DNA is essentially South Italian, not Central Italian.


They have some Slavic admixture but it's about 10% and only present in Eastern European Jews

5% in Western Ashkenazim, 15% in Eastern Ashkenazim.


For unveiling the origin you should only use Ashkenazi_Germany, because they are the most pure Ashkenazis. Historical records tell that they mostly came from Italy but also somewhat from France to the Rhineland where they ultimately formed.


I wonder where Eastern Ashkenazim get their extra Slavic. Erfurt DNA makes me doubt it's from Cossack rapists, which is the traditional Jewish story about it.

[rothaer]

I wonder where Eastern Ashkenazim get their extra Slavic. Erfurt DNA makes me doubt it's from Cossack rapists, which is the traditional Jewish story about it.

As for the Erfurt Jews it was for sure mostly Slavic from inside the HRE. As for Bohemia I read somewhere that there was recorded more than once that early Jews took indigenous Slavic wifes. The same could be true for Silesia and other parts of Germany at that time. In the Middle Ages the German society was partly pretty "racist" and in the Ostsiedlung territories you for quite a while could just become member of the guild of various crafts if you proved that all your four grandparents were German. Interestingly, that was performed also in HRE states that were ruled by indigenous Slavic dynasties like in Mecklenburg and Pomerania. It was connected to the self-governance of cities that regularly were political entities of ethnic Germans.

Even in deepest Poland, in the (ethnic German) city of Krakau/Kraków the first decades Poles were not allowed to become citizens and the Polish king had agreed to that city constitution. The official language of the city of Krakau was German for centuries. At about the end of the Middle Ages all bekame Polonised.

Now, what I want to say is that in such an environment where Slave were blocked off, for a Slav a connection to a Jew could appear advantagous, however, no disadvantage. The nowadays often pitied position of Jews in Germany in the Middle Ages, that meant to be dealt with as an exterritorial, had not just disadvantages but also advantages. Jews were exempted from common state measures on a lower level and enjoyed some kind of immunity. On the other hand they were "owned" by the German Emperor that had the right to take money for their right to at all reside in the HRE (letter of protection). This right was later sold abd ceeded to the state entities directly below the Emperor. Those Jews that did not meet the high requirements had to leave the HRE and did since centuries end up in Poland-Lithuania, Germany's Jew dump. However, the Jews that were established and made it in the HRE were whealthy, far whealthier than the average German. So marrying a Jew could improve the position of an indigenous Slavic woman in the HRE, not just factually but even legally.

The Erfurt Jews have provided new insights.

Btw. Davidski (= David Wesolowski = Eurogenes = an ethnic Pole in Australia) commented of the Erfurt Jew paper and asked why the authors used Russian as a proxy for modelling the Slavic proportion when it was obvious that the Slavic did not hail from Russians. He stated that they did it as it fitted better due to some very small "Eastern" or East Asian contributions in these Jews. Some trace contributions by Khazars to Ashkenazi Jews are thus plausible.

Precautionary: This doesn't question the Central European source of the Slavic contribution in Erfurt Jews as their Slavic proportions were very heterogeneous and thus recent.

[Scandal]

Yes, but so were Imperial Romans, and that's where Ashkenazi Jews got their Southern European component from.



They picked up the European DNA in Imperial Rome. Imperial Roman DNA is essentially South Italian, not Central Italian.



5% in Western Ashkenazim, 15% in Eastern Ashkenazim.



I wonder where Eastern Ashkenazim get their extra Slavic. Erfurt DNA makes me doubt it's from Cossack rapists, which is the traditional Jewish story about it.
What do you mean by Imperial Romans? People on Italian peninsula? Why and how did Italians become more Northern European since the fall of Roman Empire?

[celticdragongod]

What do you mean by Imperial Romans? People on Italian peninsula? Why and how did Italians become more Northern European since the fall of Roman Empire?

Wasn't northern Italy invaded and conquered by northern barbarians?
'

[Peterski]

Even in deepest Poland, in the (ethnic German) city of Krakau/Kraków the first decades Poles were not allowed to become citizens and the Polish king had agreed to that city constitution.

I thought that we already explained this in 2022 but you keep repeating false information. The relevant fragment from the city constitution says this:

https://www.radiokrakow.pl/aktualnosci/krakow/oto-akt-lokacyjny-krakowa-z-1257-r/

"These voyts also promised to us [to our Royal Majesty] that they will not turn into their co-burghers [of Cracow] any of our serfs, any of Church's serfs, or anybody's serfs, and also any free Poles who have up to this point lived in a village - thanks to which our farms will not become depopulated, and farms owned by bishops, canons, or other persons will also not become depopulated."

So this is not true that Poles were not allowed to settle in Krakow. Only peasants (villagers) were not allowed to do so, and of course not all Poles were villagers. Also as you can see the motive for this law was not "anti-Slavic racism", but the concern that farms would become depopulated if peasants were allowed to move to the nearby city.

And as for when did Cracow become Polonised - already in 1312 every citizen who could not pronounce "soczewica, koło, miele, młyn" was killed.

Another thing is that the city of Cracow expanded and absorbed some villages into its suburbs, so some Polish villagers were absorbed anyway.


In the Middle Ages the German society was partly pretty "racist" and in the Ostsiedlung territories you for quite a while could just become member of the guild of various crafts if you proved that all your four grandparents were German.

Can you provide sources for this claim and also can you prove that this law was universally applied in all cities rather than just in some cities? We discussed the "Wendish paragraph" (anti-Slaviic laws) on Polish history forum but I don't remember it being universally applied everywhere:

https://www-historycy-org.translate.goog//index.php?showtopic=114412&_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl

I have read about the "Wendish paragraph" in several sources, but I don't remember any of these sources claiming what you claim.

And of course the "Wendish paragraph" is just a colloquial term for all kinds of anti-Slavic laws, not a name of some specific law. As far as I know there was no one, universally applied everywhere, anti-Slavic law. There were just various discriminatory laws in various cities (but not in all cities).

[Jingle Bell]

Depends of your Model

Both Rome_Imperial + Levant IA + N/NE Euro and Italy_IA + Levant IA + N/NE Euro seens work, but in the first one Aj are abt 30%-20% Levantine, while in second they can be up to 50%, the right is probably around 30 - 40%, when the first Jews started migrating to Italy and Greece, the Greco-Romans werent that cosmopolite/MENA-admixed, unlike during Roman Empire Era.
And bcs Jews are a very endogamic people, they could conservate a big part of their Levantine DNA even much time later.

Model 1: Using Roman_Imperial

Target: Ashkenazi_Jewish:Ashkenazi
Distance: 1.0366% / 0.01036603
56.0 Roman*Italy*(20*BC–AD*600)
26.2 Roman*Levant*(BC*50–AD*700)
8.6 Slavic*(AD*540–1100)
7.0 Germanic*(AD*100–630)
2.2 Rouran*Khaganate*(AD*330–550)

Model 2: Using Pre-Roman Italy

Target: Ashkenazi_Jewish:Ashkenazi
Distance: 0.8896% / 0.00889646
57.2 Roman*Levant*(BC*50–AD*700)
22.2 Italic*and*Etruscan*(900–200*BC)
9.6 Slavic*(AD*540–1100)
9.0 Germanic*(AD*100–630)
2.0 Rouran*Khaganate*(AD*330–550)

*Using samples from IllustrativeDNA-Like Ancient calculator (Ivorix TheCelt), credits to him.

[Peterski]

Rome_Imperial is too heterogenous population to use it as one average. This population includes individuals who are 100% MENA.

[Slavic Italian]

Distance: 2.5940% / 0.02594017
41.8 Celtic
24.8 Balto-Slavic
19.0 Canaanite
14.2 Germanic
0.2 Anatolian

[Paraksenos]

Very nice

Target: FarAway_scaled
Distance: 2.3374% / 0.02337383
48.2 Balkan:Moesian
40.0 Balto-Slavic:Slavic
7.6 Caucasian
4.2 Germanic:Nordland

Pretty good estimate of their Levantine for Ashkenazis.

Here's a model for Romaniotes and Sephardis
132117

[rothaer]

I thought that we already explained this in 2022 but you keep repeating false information.

It is no false information. You simply dislike it as you first didn't believe it and feel embarrassed by the respective facts.


The relevant fragment from the city constitution says this:

https://www.radiokrakow.pl/aktualnosci/krakow/oto-akt-lokacyjny-krakowa-z-1257-r/

"These voyts also promised to us [to our Royal Majesty] that they will not turn into their co-burghers [of Cracow] any of our serfs, any of Church's serfs, or anybody's serfs, and also any free Poles who have up to this point lived in a village - thanks to which our farms will not become depopulated, and farms owned by bishops, canons, or other persons will also not become depopulated."

So this is not true that Poles were not allowed to settle in Krakow. Only peasants (villagers) were not allowed to do so, and of course not all Poles were villagers.

I did not speak of settling, I spoke of becoming citizen. And no, also free Poles that had been in villages (where else, there was no city around?), not just Polish peasants, could not become citizens. And you had hardly any cities with Polish citizens so that formulation kept effectively Poles out. Understandably both the Polish king and the foreseen German burghers had to find another formulation than that Poles simply were not admitted. In the text there is even an explaining excuse inserted. And becasue the Polish king was the king the others had to promise him and not the other way around - although the effect was the same when the Polish king issued a text with agreed on conditions.

The formulation is obviously a pretext. Because at that time cities were not very populous and just a part of the population were citizens. The whole surrounding was densely settled with Poles. So if there would at all have gone 100, 200 or 300 Polish individuals to the newly founded city and had become citizens that would not much have influenced the countryside, of course.


Also as you can see the motive for this law was not "anti-Slavic racism", but the concern that farms would become depopulated if peasants were allowed to move to the nearby city.

Are you really not aware of that the German burghers and the Polish king will have had different motivations? The German burghers will not have cared for the financial fate of the Polish owned villages but for the Germanness of the city of Krakau and the Polish king will not have cared for the latter but for the former. The Polish king had no interest in the Germaness of Krakau but Germans demanded that and if the Polish king would not have agreed, there would simply not have become attracted Germans with their various skills and this was what the Polish king needed. Poles he had enough already.


And as for when did Cracow become Polonised - already in 1312 every citizen who could not pronounce "soczewica, koło, miele, młyn" was killed.

Are you serious? This was just a Polish persecution of Germans that were about to achieve a notable political take-over. German was the city language for abt 300 years and in 1532 the Polish king Sigismund I. ordered that all city administrational employees were required to know both German and Polish. This was not for forcefully supporting or introducing German, of course, but for forcefully supporting or introducing Polish. You are skilled with finding things out, so I wonder what's your problem in this case. The balanced bilinguality and eventual turn to Polish language was in the 16th century.


Another thing is that the city of Cracow expanded and absorbed some villages into its suburbs, so some Polish villagers were absorbed anyway.

The citizenship was a high legal status that not every resident had. So under no circumstances anyone became "absorbed" and automatically citizen in the 13th and 14th century, lol.


Can you provide sources for this claim and also can you prove that this law was universally applied in all cities rather than just in some cities?

I expressed badly. I meant it was at all just applied in the Ostsiedlung territory and not in Cologne f. i. It was not universally applied. It depended on each guild and each city what policy they made at what time.


We discussed the "Wendish paragraph" (anti-Slavic laws) on Polish history forum but I don't remember it being universally applied everywhere:

https://www-historycy-org.translate.goog//index.php?showtopic=114412&_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl

I have read about the "Wendish paragraph" in several sources, but I don't remember any of these sources claiming what you claim.

And of course the "Wendish paragraph" is just a colloquial term for all kinds of anti-Slavic laws, not a name of some specific law.

Yes.

[Dušan]

Pretty good estimate of their Levantine for Ashkenazis.

Here's a model for Romaniotes and Sephardis
132117

This is maybe good model of modern populations for them :confused:

https://i.imgur.com/1dHO4ES.png

Getting way more Samaritan than Ashkenazi

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.ibb.co/fFvxKwQ/floorp-9jd7iqvu-Lu.png

This is a better model for Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans. Most of the samples are from the Imperial Roman Age.


Anatolian:Ḫattuša,0.1064245,0.152837,-0.0422375,-0.0686375,-0.0089245,-0.0192435,-0.00188,-0.0061155,-0.0068515,0.022871,0.0043035,0.0018735,-0.0165755,0.0086015,-0.013097,-0.004309,0.0048895,-0.002787,0.0017595,-0.005315,-0.0009355,-0.0005565,-0.0023415,0.0019885,-0.00455
Caucasian,0.1052865,0.13405,-0.0671275,-0.034238,-0.0533945,-0.0029285,0.013043,-0.006346,-0.0766965,-0.033805,0.0006495,0.013413,-0.0260155,-0.000275,0.004886,-0.0207505,0.012843,-0.000507,-0.010496,0.019134,0.017906,-0.0011745,-0.0043755,-0.0147005,-0.0044905
Balkan:Moesian,0.121791,0.1590993,0.0131993,-0.0301467,0.0321083,-0.0135727,0.00235,0.0030767,0.003886,0.0335313,0.0 061707,0.0105907,-0.0143213,-0.0014223,-0.02072,-0.0010163,0.0149073,0.0019847,0.008799,-0.0065863,-0.0112303,0.008079,-0.00341,0.003414,-0.0011577
Roman:Rome,0.1088434,0.1515678,-0.0004242,-0.0366605,0.019388,-0.0162105,-0.0015569,-0.0043556,0.0053178,0.0234401,0.0005072,0.004496,-0.0079534,-0.0013245,-0.0066334,-0.0028674,0.002298,-0.0005541,0.0020742,-0.0000311,-0.0012011,0.0005101,0.0034815,-0.0015364,-0.0007185
Roman:Picenum,0.1104085,0.1500445,0.0028282,-0.0457045,0.0199268,-0.0171518,0.0000588,-0.002423,0.0099192,0.0283832,0.0051558,0.0056952,-0.0081022,-0.0020642,-0.006311,-0.004707,0.0022492,-0.0002215,0.0046822,-0.0014068,-0.0035565,0.003246,-0.0032045,-0.002952,-0.0039815
Mesopotamian:Dinkha-Tepe,0.0902048,0.1409048,-0.0628848,-0.0776008,-0.027005,-0.0253092,0.0018212,-0.0072692,-0.010584,0.0013668,0.0073888,-0.003709,0.0090312,-0.000757,-0.0025785,0.0126955,-0.0007825,0.0027238,0.003771,-0.0038455,0.0045858,0.002195,-0.0052995,-0.0013858,0.0025445
Canaanite,0.0840665,0.148393,-0.0634209,-0.1014829,-0.0118078,-0.0396034,-0.0043807,-0.0094099,0.013829,0.0086646,0.0101956,-0.0108203,0.0216497,0.0046582,-0.0096671,0.0086647,-0.0030674,0.0020017,0.002749,0.0064067,0.0042414,0 .0053394,-0.0035185,-0.0008072,-0.0001107
Celtic:Insular:Roscommon,0.1265792,0.1315286,0.060 0402,0.0508447,0.0368238,0.0178875,0.000705,0.0048 618,0.0043937,0.0011438,-0.0062604,0.0071419,-0.0153941,-0.0164436,0.0252954,0.007832,-0.0080209,0.0015596,0.0018855,0.0036828,0.0051288, 0.0038034,0.0013388,0.0119334,-0.0005368
Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul,0.1277096,0.1367916,0.057624,0.0362406,0 .0469625,0.0108209,0.005499,0.0028846,0.0085288,0. 0121734,-0.0034263,0.0071935,-0.0125322,-0.008794,0.0130562,-0.0031025,-0.0104828,0.0017104,0.0024637,-0.0009129,0.0050038,0.0049585,-0.0013803,-0.0012772,-0.0015806
Germanic:Öland,0.1255306,0.1260707,0.0751547,0.061 3239,0.0448874,0.0220723,0.0060429,0.0101864,0.005 376,-0.0036186,-0.0041293,-0.000942,-0.0037801,0.0015729,0.0162863,0.0066106,-0.0052527,0.0024253,0.0064287,0.0067174,0.0068091, 0.0015016,0.0011444,0.0097604,-0.0000686
Germanic:Nordland,0.133173,0.127957,0.073916,0.063 308,0.046162,0.019801,0.003055,0.003,0.003068,-0.009112,-0.014615,0.002997,-0.010258,-0.009634,0.027144,0.007425,-0.002477,0.001774,0.003771,0.01088,0.007487,0.0055 64,0.000246,0.010122,-0.005149
Germanic:Zealand,0.127482,0.131003,0.066185,0.0665 38,0.042931,0.0214745,0.0027025,0.0129225,0.00859,-0.010934,-0.003816,0.0080175,-0.0043855,-0.004542,0.0217835,0.007027,-0.0131685,0.008488,0.005091,0.0075035,0.0086725,0. 007172,0.001171,0.013315,0.0015565
Balto-Slavic:Baltic,0.1305171,0.1268283,0.1001044,0.1110 769,0.048385,0.0399124,0.0145449,0.0188197,-0.000568,-0.0488596,-0.0003249,-0.0189164,0.0329201,0.0433512,-0.0168293,0.0013113,0.0021294,-0.0014498,-0.0003212,0.0077817,-0.0024957,-0.0051934,0.0092299,-0.0223726,0.0025412
Balto-Slavic:Slavic,0.135449,0.128972,0.080704,0.063954, 0.034776,0.034025,0.006815,0.007615,0.009613,-0.02041,-0.001461,-0.005245,0.010852,0.026561,-0.014658,-0.002254,0.002347,0.001267,0.01081,-0.001751,0.001622,-0.002844,0.009613,-0.008314,0.005389
Turkic:Oghuz,0.070001,-0.178733,0.052797,0.007106,-0.0438545,-0.0110165,0.0047,0.0119995,-0.010942,-0.0073805,-0.0178625,-0.002173,0.00171,-0.0099775,0.0026465,0.002254,-0.0065845,0.002597,0.011753,0.0106925,-0.020713,-0.000804,-0.0109075,-0.0024705,-0.001497


Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.7108% / 0.01710770
51.2 Germanic
43.0 InsularCeltic
3.0 Roman
1.8 Celtic
1.0 Caucasian

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.7039% / 0.01703889
53.0 Germanic:Nordland
41.0 InsularCeltic:Insular:Roscommon
3.6 Anatolian:Ḫattuša
1.4 Celtic:Continental:Faux-Vesigneul
1.0 Germanic:Zealand

[Peterski]

And no, also free Poles that had been in villages (where else, there was no city around?), not just Polish peasants

Free Poles from villages are simply free peasants. Not all peasants were serfs, these terms are not synonymous.

Poles who were townsmen in other towns or grods and Poles who were nobles could become citizens in Cracow.


And you had hardly any cities with Polish citizens

Urbanization in Poland did not start with the Ostsiedlung. There existed cities, towns and grods (strongholds) with Polish inhabitants.

[Peterski]

It depended on each guild and each city what policy they made at what time.

In other words you have no source to support this claim. I asked you for source and you provided none.

[Mopi The Dire Wolf]

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

[Paraksenos]

This is maybe good model of modern populations for them :confused:

https://i.imgur.com/1dHO4ES.png

Getting way more Samaritan than Ashkenazi

Don't North African Jews need an Imperial Roman proxy like Ashkenazis, Sephardics and Romaniotes do?

add this
0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

[Paraksenos]

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

They still retain 20% direct Levantine ancestry, so they are not just converts. They just mixed a lot with Imperial Romans.

[Peterski]

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

[Sovanz]

So Ashkenazi Jews are imperial era Romans who converted to Judaism ��

To me Jews are white except those heavily armenoid influenced people.

[Paraksenos]

I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

The Imperial Roma samples have 2 homogenous clusters. 30% of the samples are homogenous Aegean and are identical to the homogenous Roman era West Anatolians from Mugla. They are genetic profile that existed since Hellenistic times in the Aegean and were already homogenous in the Roman era.

The other cluster clusters with South Italians and is a mix of Aegeans + Italic-Gaul related and possible single digit % of direct Levantine.


0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

These are the 2 clusters without the outliers

Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672

https://i.imgur.com/N71J3aP.png
https://i.imgur.com/A7adotp.png
https://i.imgur.com/XlqKwcT.png
https://i.imgur.com/DdPPNvj.png

https://i.imgur.com/KTlS9eL.png
Source pops for Jews:


0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica, 0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0 051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455

9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.0 73985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586

8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0 698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0 108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239 ,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321 ,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694


9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334

[rothaer]

In other words you have no source to support this claim. I asked you for source and you provided none.

Rather: In other words I don't at all make up such a claim.

[rothaer]

(...)

Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hebrew_bracteates_of_Poland

[#Oda#]

Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hebrew_bracteates_of_Poland

Please work on your syntax. It's painful, even for non-English ears.

[Eurafricanid]

I believe it's something like 40% on average.

They get real mad when you bring up how Palestinians are more native to the land than they are. They repeat the false claim from a book that even Israeli historians call garbage that was destroyed by Norman Finkelstein in the early 80s (I forget the name and author) that the land was without people except Bedouins and that Arabs starting arriving after Zionist Jews made the desert bloom because they wanted better wages, which is just an absurd claim.

The reality is what today is called Israel and Palestine was not devoid of population. The belief that the Romans deported all Jews and the land has been sitting there empty is laughable. Palestinians are predominately Jews who had converted to Christianity and Islam, while Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc. are descended from Jews living in communities they had formed throughout the known world for trading purposes over centuries and Jews the Romans expelled from cities, such as Jerusalem, because it's in cities where the brains of a political opposition will be found.

Just don't forget the Arabs (including Egyptians and Levantines from other places) that migrated and mixed with the mostly converted Jews living in there, let's not forget that the Arabs aren't just coming straight from Arabia, so them looking more levantine genetically doesn't make them 100% local either, most Palestinians' results I see are very Egyptian.
It's a fact that the Palestinians average is very different from the Samaritan and more similar to the Levantine Muslim mutts.

[Jingle Bell]

Rome_Imperial is too heterogenous population to use it as one average. This population includes individuals who are 100% MENA.

I used just the samples in the "Central Med" cluster

[Dušan]

Don't North African Jews need an Imperial Roman proxy like Ashkenazis, Sephardics and Romaniotes do?

add this
0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

Arent North African Jews actually Sephardics who ended there after expulsion from Spain?


Anyway, this Imperial Roman you posted gives me quite good distance 2.0 in combination with Slavic samples. :)

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0372% / 0.02037166
69.2 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
30.8 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

[Paraksenos]

Arent North African Jews actually Sephardics who ended there after expulsion from Spain?


Anyway, this Imperial Roman you posted gives me quite good distance 2.0 in combination with Slavic samples. :)

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0372% / 0.02037166
69.2 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
30.8 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

Since you are a Serb you also need these

1.East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

1.Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
1.Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321

[Dušan]

Since you are a Serb you also need these

1.East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

1.Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
1.Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321

Efharisto :)


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 1.8618% / 0.01861803
66.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
18.6 East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age
15.0 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

[Paraksenos]

The Imperial Roma samples have 2 homogenous clusters. 30% of the samples are homogenous Aegean and are identical to the homogenous Roman era West Anatolians from Mugla. They are genetic profile that existed since Hellenistic times in the Aegean and were already homogenous in the Roman era.

The other cluster clusters with South Italians and is a mix of Aegeans + Italic-Gaul related and possible single digit % of direct Levantine.


0.South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

These are the 2 clusters without the outliers

Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672

https://i.imgur.com/N71J3aP.png
https://i.imgur.com/A7adotp.png
https://i.imgur.com/XlqKwcT.png
https://i.imgur.com/DdPPNvj.png

https://i.imgur.com/KTlS9eL.png
Source pops for Jews:


0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica, 0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0 051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455

9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.0 73985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586

8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0 698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0 108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239 ,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321 ,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694


9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334


An extra model as a test with modern Levantines as a proxy
https://i.imgur.com/Rgbz9hV.png
I used Lebanese Christians, Lebanese Druze and Samaritans

[Paraksenos]

Efharisto :)


Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 1.8618% / 0.01861803
66.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
18.6 East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age
15.0 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)

try one without Thracian

[Dušan]

try one without Thracian

Getting Albos without Thracian. :rolleyes:

Target: Dušan_scaled
Distance: 2.0031% / 0.02003108
64.4 Slavic*(AD*540–1270)
23.4 South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD)
12.2 Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age

[Gallop]

0.South_Aegean_Greek(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222

1.Italy_North_Roman_Imperial_proxy:French_Corsica, 0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Israel_Iron_Age,0.0814974,0.1442052,-0.0603392,-0.0961896,-0.015326,-0.0372598,-0.005546,-0.0069228,0.0140302,0.013777,0.007535,-0.0062646,0.0189392,0.0040736,-0.0047774,0.0032084,-0.004407,0.0041806,0.0022374,0.00065,0.0014474,0.0 051688,-0.0027606,-0.0024822,-0.0007664

4.Levant_Iron_Age-Roman-era:Levant_Beirut_ERoman-era,0.0822372,0.140397,-0.0554368,-0.091409,-0.0178492,-0.033118,-0.0042888,-0.0060572,0.0098685,0.0091575,0.0094592,-0.0100412,0.0174305,-0.0010665,-0.0100435,0.016872,0.0113432,-0.0047825,0.0008485,0.0014382,0.0050222,0.0055645,-0.0041905,0.003434,-0.0022455

9.Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG,0.0 73985,-0.156392,0.031301,0.013889,-0.052933,0,0.000235,0.003231,-0.014521,-0.017677,-0.014453,-0.003147,0.00223,-0.016377,0.009908,-0.000928,-0.01343,0.001267,0.004525,0.001,-0.014974,0.000742,-0.004067,-0.005663,-0.006586

8.North_Euro:Slavic:Polish,0.1318405,0.1292694,0.0 698685,0.0577382,0.0406754,0.0217127,0.0086781,0.0 108626,-0.0009329,-0.0185524,-0.0043488,-0.0064187,0.013093,0.0186295,-0.0070244,-0.0005595,0.0015455,-7.41e-05,0.0026948,0.0012872,-0.0031286,-0.0031185,0.0056063,-0.0033328,-8.76e-05
8.North_Euro:Slavic:Belarusian,0.1322625,0.1236239 ,0.0750219,0.0695957,0.0402331,0.0265691,0.0107321 ,0.0133226,-0.0002727,-0.0246017,-0.0026957,-0.0092119,0.0193259,0.0272309,-0.0112647,-0.0038009,-0.0009647,0.0003717,0.0041397,-0.0010504,-0.0042342,-0.0046081,0.0077235,-0.0068601,0.000694


9.North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759,-0.072847,0.142174,0.003017,-0.072352,0.032621,-0.039602,-0.033607,0.009923,0.090604,0.031345,0.011367,-0.012289,0.026164,-0.015689,0.025515,-0.017369,0.00013,-0.026985,-0.055559,0.007504,-0.013476,-0.045257,0.023294,-0.014098,0.012334
South.Greece/West.Anatolia(Roman_era_1-200AD):Imperial_Rome(Mugla_profile)+Mugla,0.108738 9,0.1527357,-0.0335888,-0.0700049,0.0004309,-0.0225901,0.0002193,-0.0049076,-0.0057949,0.0243225,0.0046767,0.0034469,-0.0066204,0.0031103,-0.0139793,-0.0054362,0.0047721,0.0004729,0.0040811,-0.0070116,-0.0044421,0.0023824,-0.0023993,0.0029722,0.0008222
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial_1-200AD(Greek_cluster),0.1088636,0.1526196,-0.0313278,-0.0678069,0.0010112,-0.0238849,0.0019639,-0.0049449,-0.0068223,0.0250445,0.0057764,0.0039501,-0.0067959,0.0023986,-0.0144834,-0.0044039,0.0062212,-0.0000815,0.0026039,-0.0056008,-0.0038235,0.0023759,-0.0034863,0.0024185,0.0004704
Italy_Central/South_Roman_Imperial(South_Italian_cluster),0.1127 723,0.1499078,-0.0114876,-0.0458908,0.0106765,-0.0152317,-0.0020427,-0.0055915,-0.0003776,0.0195413,0.0022858,0.0039542,-0.007959,-0.0043298,-0.0080389,-0.0016012,0.006439,0.0018516,0.0048442,-0.0047812,-0.0008542,0.00448,-0.0014315,-0.0020577,-0.0002672
East_Balkans_Thracian_Iron_Age:BGR_IA,0.126344,0 .157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Albania_Cinamak_Iron_Age,0.1239044,0.1531999,0.0 288229,-0.0124586,0.0291481,-0.0053786,0.001175,0.0003956,-0.000292,0.0241073,0.0025981,0.0065729,-0.0183066,-0.0076479,-0.0091901,-0.0024623,0.0109894,0.0014116,0.0047407,-0.0086647,-0.005633,0.0017666,-0.0033629,0.006593,-0.0054743
Croatia_Iron_Age,0.1236404,0.1502982,0.0387492,0 .0012112,0.0370838,-0.0017779,0.0004994,0.001298,0.012885,0.0267432,-0.0022126,0.0079805,-0.0120787,-0.0053156,-0.0038511,-0.000232,0.001695,0.0025813,0.0030796,-0.0008911,-0.0022305,0.0031379,-0.0035125,-0.0016719,-0.0013321


I put everything I found on this page, because what if there's something left in the pot?


Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 3.2218% / 0.03221821
89.4 Croatia_Iron_Age
8.2 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759
1.2 Medieval_Turkic_Karakhanid.SG:DA204_noUDG.SG
1.2 North_Euro:Slavic:Polish

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.8477% / 0.02847698
83.4 Croatia_Iron_Age
10.6 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759
6.0 North_Euro:Slavic:Polish

Target: brother_scaled
Distance: 2.7610% / 0.02761012
89.0 Croatia_Iron_Age
11.0 North_African_TUN_Kerkouane_Iron_Age:R11759



Doesn't it say that Western Ashkenazi's get 5% Slavic?


Honestly, I find it hard to believe that our clusters separated thousands of years ago and the haplogroup ended up separately in different European countries. To clarify, Spain is in orange because it counts two users, but in reality it should be in light yellow because we are my father and I. As you can see, Poland is the one with more users coming from this cluster.


https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhbiNpJeVIiWxP5_Gj5ICLPO2yaBbvS_zRBkQfI1M0jY6 TjslhiSlLL8i7mYsZGdjoPobDbgQifpjfrY7DJ62K_vASuemLm wb-hwdpjpzIdlwaTwXVh-4B6eEyRVxD9-CyVMpSaUr5HQb8-ydGe544BsT8VKDo_1KEpkFNhVb2IIE4AbZuyQIhJVHcdSXg/s894/mapaE.V2249.JPEG

[Peterski]

Rather: In other words I don't at all make up such a claim.

You made a claim about having to prove that 4 grandparents were Germans before being admitted to a guild.

Can you show your sources for this claim and did it apply just to one specific city or to a number of cities?


Btw. after we in this thread spoke of the Middle Ages, embarrassing conditions, Poles and Ashkenazi Jews, did you know of these from 12th and 13th century Poland?:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hebrew_bracteates_of_Poland

Yes I knew about Jewish coins in Poland.

A more interesting question is how did these coins end up in a museum in Berlin? Probably due to Nazi looting during WW2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder#Poland

[Annihilus]

fuck jews, I have had it with them

[Johnson Reed]

What do you mean by Imperial Romans? People on Italian peninsula? Why and how did Italians become more Northern European since the fall of Roman Empire?

DNA samples from Imperial Rome.


Rome_Imperial is too heterogenous population to use it as one average. This population includes individuals who are 100% MENA.

Were they locally born?


I don't think so. As I said, the "Rome_Imperial" average is heterogenous, it includes many individuals who are even 100% MENA. The "Rome_Imperial" average includes many MENA immigrants to Rome as well as many individuals with partial MENA ancestry.

We don't really know if the entire population of Italy was as MENA-shifted as the "Rome_Imperial" average.

I wonder what Julius Caesar was like autosomally.

[rothaer]

You made a claim about having to prove that 4 grandparents were Germans before being admitted to a guild.

Can you show your sources for this claim and did it apply just to one specific city or to a number of cities?

It's the known Wendenparagraph. See the abstract in English here, the full text is also available at that link.

https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/handle/document/48730#

I didn't read it, as its common knowledge to me that this was the case at some (restricted) time at some cities at some guilds (as I wrote). Funnily Beeskow (!) is mentioned in the abstract.


Yes I knew about Jewish coins in Poland.

A more interesting question is how did these coins end up in a museum in Berlin? Probably due to Nazi looting during WW2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder#Poland

"Probably", because you assume the coins having been located in interwar Poland from the the 12th century till 1939?

I guess there have been more interested and whealthy collectors of such coins outside interwar Poland than inside.

[Paraksenos]

DNA samples from Imperial Rome.



Were they locally born?



I wonder what Julius Caesar was like autosomally.

In 1-200 AD Imperial Rome, there were two main genetic clusters, one identical to DNA samples from Roman-era Southwest Anatolia (Greek) and another that was a mix of 60% Greek and 30% (Early Republican Roman/Etruscan + Gaul) similar to modern Southern Italians. It's likely that the Southern Italian like cluster developed earlier, before 1 AD, allowing time for mixing, while the "pure" Aegean cluster represents more recent Greek immigrants. Julius Caesar, born in Rome in 100 BC into the Julian clan, might have had a genetic profile similar to modern Corsicans if the elite families of that time didn't mix much with Greeks. If there are sources on the breeding patterns of his family and related elites, we could get a clearer idea of his genetic makeup.

[Figaro]

Only if you use North Italians instead of South Italians. South Italians make more sense, since Imperial Roman Italy was genetically South Italian-like, not North Italian-like, and Jews mixed with Italians in Imperial Rome.

Does my minor Jewish ancestry give me license to slick my hair, wear gold chains and say “Marone!” ?

[Johnson Reed]

Does my minor Jewish ancestry give me license to slick my hair, wear gold chains and say “Marone!” ?

The real question is, does it mean you should call "them" ditsoon/moolinyan or schvartza?

[Gallop]

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiETJY_qeHP2snieXlsGNtt8E0J9k8wgLyPVMHLZutKTr JpYekmnD-VN57BNEEcGg-1NksKa24fGBc_ZdRCcoIuwYebmp79l0MSj0geZBK9sIrD_HXlP 2JuMnobIqiB3FWYZM5zkaKQ0NylHUo0KkJgUbfDcfTMf606Sqm uhMyZwwI0sMINKbp28jjoKpI/w640-h598/calabriaYfull.png

Father´s results
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj2gKfeSLGr53G9OgAFg6PBMAGwP25TN5GvIpkiXSmcNP DbSHX80JK8uDKirI7o45ullfJw1xGxNGkQNnfbckROEALLWwpc 0kQKHa0f8gNT4_JY9zfoXefdqjtaLCkBw1Np6J0YVwlKI3nBzp 3UFLAEYGzl_9uqLvsKw4LGSBAssz3ufqX5ikbPENZTens/s371/AdkenaziIreland.jpeg


Truly seeing my situation in Yfull and my father's result in Ashkenazi in FTDNA, and taking into account the oral tradition of my family which says that our ancestor arrived in Andalusia during the Napoleonic invasion, it is determined that my lineage is an Ashkenazi lineage. Let them find out all the shit from the third to fourth experts, also about my own haplogroup, which is out there in the networks, forums, facebook e.t.c

[Gallop]

The historical events and the relations and connections between the European countries, the Spanish Empire, the expulsion of the Jews in Spain, the Napoleonic invasion of Spain, etc., make it possible, for example, that there could be a Dutchman with a Sephardic haplogroup, pejoratively called Marranos in his time, and a Spaniard with an Ashkenazi haplogroup.

[Dušan]

Imperial Roman DNA is essentially South Italian, not Central Italian.


Well, I checked Roman samples from Illustrative DNA from mine area:



Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilo s_Krusevlje:R6693,0.119514,0.149283,0.011314,-0.015827,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00047,0.013384,0.011658,0.027518,-0.003735,0.016036,-0.019177,0.008257,-0.008415,-0.01127,-0.002086,0.001267,0.011061,-0.004502,-0.003369,-0.002473,-0.002342,0.005061,-0.005628
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilo s_Krusevlje:R6701,0.126344,0.153345,0.028284,-0.028101,0.032621,-0.009482,0.005405,0.003,0.010431,0.031709,0.005521 ,0.001499,-0.006838,-0.001239,-0.011129,-0.014054,-0.011865,-0.004054,0.002137,-0.006503,-0.009733,-0.008779,0.002095,0.002289,-0.00467
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Vimin acium:R9669,0.117238,0.144205,0.017725,-0.012274,0.028928,-0.001116,0,0.009,0.001432,0.021868,0.005196,0.0082 43,-0.012785,-0.005643,-0.011672,0.001724,0.004172,0.005954,0.00905,-0.005753,-0.013851,0.013354,-0.002218,0.00964,0.007784
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:MNE_Docle a_Bjelovine:R3481,0.113823,0.153345,0.013576,-0.032623,0.016618,-0.013945,0.00517,-0.004846,-0.000409,0.029158,-0.006171,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.000138,-0.011808,-0.015646,-0.004303,0.008488,0.007919,-0.011005,-0.000624,0.007048,-0.003821,-0.004458,-0.004191



Their average was close to central even north Italian.

Roman_SRB-MNE,0.11923,0.150044,0.017725,-0.022206,0.025081,-0.006833,0.002526,0.005134,0.005778,0.027563,0.000 203,0.007606,-0.01364,0.000309,-0.010756,-0.009812,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,-0.006941,-0.006894,0.002288,-0.001572,0.003133,-0.001676


Distance to: Roman_SRB-MNE
0.01930112 Italian_Tuscany
0.02025733 Italian_Emilia
0.02070954 Italian_Lombardy
0.02079867 Greek_Thessaly
0.02340132 Italian_Piedmont
0.02347989 Italian_Marche
0.02434137 Italian_Umbria
0.02561755 French_Corsica
0.02621177 Italian_Bergamo
0.02648841 Greek_Messenia


I dont know is this was common all across Roman empire, but this is for areas of modern Serbia and Montenegro.

[Johnson Reed]

Well, I checked Roman samples from Illustrative DNA from mine area:



Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilo s_Krusevlje:R6693,0.119514,0.149283,0.011314,-0.015827,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00047,0.013384,0.011658,0.027518,-0.003735,0.016036,-0.019177,0.008257,-0.008415,-0.01127,-0.002086,0.001267,0.011061,-0.004502,-0.003369,-0.002473,-0.002342,0.005061,-0.005628
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Svilo s_Krusevlje:R6701,0.126344,0.153345,0.028284,-0.028101,0.032621,-0.009482,0.005405,0.003,0.010431,0.031709,0.005521 ,0.001499,-0.006838,-0.001239,-0.011129,-0.014054,-0.011865,-0.004054,0.002137,-0.006503,-0.009733,-0.008779,0.002095,0.002289,-0.00467
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:SRB_Vimin acium:R9669,0.117238,0.144205,0.017725,-0.012274,0.028928,-0.001116,0,0.009,0.001432,0.021868,0.005196,0.0082 43,-0.012785,-0.005643,-0.011672,0.001724,0.004172,0.005954,0.00905,-0.005753,-0.013851,0.013354,-0.002218,0.00964,0.007784
Roman*Illyria*(AD*100–600):Roman*Illyria:MNE_Docle a_Bjelovine:R3481,0.113823,0.153345,0.013576,-0.032623,0.016618,-0.013945,0.00517,-0.004846,-0.000409,0.029158,-0.006171,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.000138,-0.011808,-0.015646,-0.004303,0.008488,0.007919,-0.011005,-0.000624,0.007048,-0.003821,-0.004458,-0.004191



Their average was close to central even north Italian.

Roman_SRB-MNE,0.11923,0.150044,0.017725,-0.022206,0.025081,-0.006833,0.002526,0.005134,0.005778,0.027563,0.000 203,0.007606,-0.01364,0.000309,-0.010756,-0.009812,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,-0.006941,-0.006894,0.002288,-0.001572,0.003133,-0.001676


Distance to: Roman_SRB-MNE
0.01930112 Italian_Tuscany
0.02025733 Italian_Emilia
0.02070954 Italian_Lombardy
0.02079867 Greek_Thessaly
0.02340132 Italian_Piedmont
0.02347989 Italian_Marche
0.02434137 Italian_Umbria
0.02561755 French_Corsica
0.02621177 Italian_Bergamo
0.02648841 Greek_Messenia


I dont know is this was common all across Roman empire, but this is for areas of modern Serbia and Montenegro.

Imperial Roman DNA from Italy was South Italian/East Med like, and Ashkenazim picked up their Italian blood in Roman Italy, not in the Balkans.

[Paraksenos]

Imperial Roman DNA from Italy was South Italian/East Med like, and Ashkenazim picked up their Italian blood in Roman Italy, not in the Balkans.

The South-Central Italy was indeed South Italian like to Dodecanese/Cypriot like while North Italy was Corsican like.

[Johnson Reed]

Weren't early Italics essentially akin to Iberians without their North African input?

[Leto]

Jews are obviously not just 25% Middle Eastern. Take a look at this member of the Rothschild family:

North_Atlantic 12.17 Pct
Baltic 6.79 Pct
West_Med 18.74 Pct
West_Asian 9.71 Pct
East_Med 42.48 Pct
Red_Sea 6.59 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.58 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African 2.13 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

He's Middle Eastern as a bastard, though I'm not saying he's identical to Biblical Hebrews or something.

[Gallop]

Weren't early Italics essentially akin to Iberians without their North African input?

The Latins were Indo-European, the Iberians and the Etruscans were not.How Lady gaga sits on Bidem's lap And modern Norse believe that the elite of Rome were of Norse origin, for it has been said that "sporadic visits from North Africa. beca NA haplogroup has been found in the Etruscans.

[Johnson Reed]

Jews are obviously not just 25% Middle Eastern. Take a look at this member of the Rothschild family:

North_Atlantic 12.17 Pct
Baltic 6.79 Pct
West_Med 18.74 Pct
West_Asian 9.71 Pct
East_Med 42.48 Pct
Red_Sea 6.59 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.58 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African 2.13 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

He's Middle Eastern as a bastard, though I'm not saying he's identical to Biblical Hebrews or something.

Southern Italians have a lot of MENA blood too, Jews have MENA from mixing with Southern Italians in addition to their original Israelite MENA. Surprised that this guy is almost 59% MENA, that's very high for an Ashkenazi.

[MinervaItalica]

Southern Italians have a lot of MENA blood too, Jews have MENA from mixing with Southern Italians

Too bad we dont have any more Italians from the South to see and comment such claims... :bored:

[Johnson Reed]

Too bad we dont have any more Italians from the South to see and comment such claims... :bored:

It's objectively true. You're from the North, why do you even care?

https://i.ibb.co/tb9vjVh/Southern-Italians.png

[libal]

We have yet to discover how much of that Levantine is legit Israelite though. xPhoencian, xAmorite, xMoabite… the real stat could be much much lower than that. I remember the 70% Levantine stat going around in the past.. then it was changed to 50% Levantine. Then, as for now, 20% Levantine. It’s important to remember to that Samaritans aren’t fully Israelite themselves.

[Johnson Reed]

We have yet to discover how much of that Levantine is legit Israelite though. xPhoencian, xAmorite, xMoabite… the real stat could be much much lower than that. I remember the 70% Levantine stat going around in the past.. then it was changed to 50% Levantine. Then, as for now, 20% Levantine. It’s important to remember to that Samaritans aren’t fully Israelite themselves.

What else are Samaritans mixed with?

[libal]

What else are Samaritans mixed with?

Target: Samaritan

Distance: 1.3647% / 0.01364671

81.0 South_Levant_BA

11.2 Mesopotamia_BA

4.4 Tajik_Yaghnobi

3.4 Italy_Imperial.SG

[Johnson Reed]

Target: Samaritan

Distance: 1.3647% / 0.01364671

81.0 South_Levant_BA

11.2 Mesopotamia_BA

4.4 Tajik_Yaghnobi

3.4 Italy_Imperial.SG

Mesopotamian I can understand, but why the Turkic and Imperial Roman?

[Gallop]

Resultados askenazis de papá en FTDNA:


Medio Oriente y África del Norte
<1%
África del Norte
Magreb y Egipto
<1%
Oriente Medio
Anatolia, Armenia y Mesopotamia
<1%

I remember it was great when I saw Mesopotamia in my father's genetic results, it was lucky to test him in FTDNA and the result of an Italian ancestor in 23andMe, which could well be some European Jew that 23andMe confuses with Italian, we will see later, Mesopotamians are the descendants of our Ashkenazi ancestors who arrived in Spain in relatively modern times through Y DNA, it is also fortunate that the rest of Europe has a thousand times more haplogroups E than Spain, where except perhaps the E-M81 most of them have come to us through other European countries.

[Leto]

Southern Italians have a lot of MENA blood too, Jews have MENA from mixing with Southern Italians in addition to their original Israelite MENA. Surprised that this guy is almost 59% MENA, that's very high for an Ashkenazi.
Yes, his East Med is very high, usually Eastern European Ashkenazim score 33-38 percent. However, the Rothschilds are a German Jewish family originally, I don't know how much they have mixed with Jews from Eastern Europe as well as non-Jews since then.

[MinervaItalica]

It's objectively true. You're from the North, why do you even care?

https://i.ibb.co/tb9vjVh/Southern-Italians.png

I dont (coz it is bullshit anyway) but It is my country you talking about so when someone spout shit either from North or South i actually care. If you go South Italy telling them they have "MENA blood" they beat you at best. :D

Do u seriously think i trust some random chart online that can be manipulated? :bored:
They are not trustable nor representative and i dont give a shit unless approved by Italian scolars as well.

I only trust history facts not these datas.

[Leto]

I dont (coz it is bullshit anyway) but It is my country you talking about so when someone spout shit either from North or South i actually care. If you go South Italy telling them they have "MENA blood" they beat you at best. :D

Do u seriously think i trust some random chart online that can be manipulated? :bored:
They are not trustable nor representative and i dont give a shit unless approved by Italian scolars as well.

I only trust history facts not these datas.
Italy is not exactly an understudied country. In fact, it's the opposite. There have been international studies on Italian genetics and you can find a myriad of individual Italians who have taken DNA tests themselves. Sure you're never gonna have 60 million people tested but the amount of data we have right now is more than enough to come to certain conclusions. Why resist the facts? I can tell you that as a Russian I too once had to change my view of my people's origin when I started to learn more about our genetics and my own ancestry. Some deep-seated misconceptions had to be cast aside, some new facts had to be acknowledged instead. It's not like my whole world was shattered though.

[MinervaItalica]

Italy is not exactly an understudied country. In fact, it's the opposite. There have been international studies on Italian genetics and you can find a myriad of individual Italians who have taken DNA tests themselves. Sure you're never gonna have 60 million people tested but the amount of data we have right now is more than enough to come to certain conclusions. Why resist the facts?

We dont know anything about the people who took dna tests if they are fully italian or not. Numbers and tests can be manipulated especially if found online and posted on these forums and these charts are only accepted and discussed on these kind of forums, they have no meaning outside. Hardly can be considered facts...

Saying that "Southern Italians have a lot of MENA blood" like user above claimed is very laughtable.

So, unless these charts are confirmed and accepted widely even in real world and even by Italian scolars it will be hard to convince me otherwise.

[Leto]

We dont know anything about the people who took dna tests if they are fully italian or not. Numbers and tests can be manipulated especially if found online and posted on these forums and these charts are only accepted and discussed on these kind of forums, they have no meaning outside. Hardly can be considered facts...

Saying that "Southern Italians have a lot of MENA blood" like user above claimed is very laughtable.

So, unless these charts are confirmed and accepted widely even in real world and even by Italian scolars it will be hard to convince me otherwise.
Well, going by that logic you can say the same about almost anything. It's like some people who (rightly) distrust the mainstream media and the government but they do it so much that they go to extremes not believing any single word they read or hear from those people. That's not very healthy in my opinion.
Regarding the Italians, I think a well-known international study found out Imperial Rome had a fucking lot of Middle Easterners from the east of the empire. Also, Southern Italy is just geographically very close to the Middle East and North Africa, obviously it's expected that they'd score more of that stuff than, say, Lombardians or Tyroleans, don't you think?

[MinervaItalica]

Well, going by that logic you can say the same about almost anything. It's like some people who (rightly) distrust the mainstream media and the government but they do it so much that they go to extremes not believing any single word they read or hear from those people. That's not very healthy in my opinion.

This is what people on this forum do, believe every single chart is posted without any actual trustable study or source. So are you saying that these forums and datas found nowhere in real world are more trustable? Please...
Id trust more a dna scolar in my country real life than OP on a forum like this tbh...


Regarding the Italians, I think a well-known international study found out Imperial Rome had a fucking lot of Middle Easterners from the east of the empire.

lol cmon...
Perhaps Romans who married middle easterners stayed there and didnt return in Italy many Romans did, they preferred to remain in provinces perhaps middle easterners actually have italic blood :rolleyes:
They mixed with other people as well not only middle easterners but strangely these are never counted...


Also, Southern Italy is just geographically very close to the Middle East and North Africa, obviously it's expected that they'd score more of that stuff than, say, Lombardians or Tyroleans, don't you think?

Well not really close... there is a lot of sea between... but in any case geography location doesnt means much but marriages and mixing do now if you can prove the majority of Southern Italians actually married/mixed with ME so much to change the gene pool i would agree with you.

Im not saying they have 0 ME blood but definitely not "LOT".

[-Scar-]

Some Jews entered Rome in 200BC. I believe they got mixed with "pristine Italic" types at the same time "C6" was being created. I could be wrong though.

[SUPREEEEEME]

I consider some Jewish groups as very strange, like Ethiopian Jews who are Black, Bukharian Jews from Uzebekistan, there are even Jews in India and China. All of them have settled Israel and live there now. I don't know how these groups were created and whether they are related to other Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardi). I guess they are not.
There are also fake Jews in Israel who are actually Russians or Ukrainians.

Kaifeng Jews, Bukharian Jews, Malabari Jews, Paradesi Jews, and Mumbai Jews all have uniparental links to the rest of world Jewry. Haven't seen autosomal results of Kaifeng Jews - but the aforementioned all have significant Levantine autosomal ancestry. At this point, believing otherwise is very much cope.

[libal]

Kaifeng Jews, Bukharian Jews, Malabari Jews, Paradesi Jews, and Mumbai Jews all have uniparental links to the rest of world Jewry. Haven't seen autosomal results of Kaifeng Jews - but the aforementioned all have significant Levantine autosomal ancestry. At this point, believing otherwise is very much cope.

"Believe what I say…"

"Otherwise, it’s a cope."

Neat display.

[Vessna]

Jews is not a regular tribe/nation, both now and when they were chosen Israelite people out of tribes. Regular national measures won't work with them, and yes they're Jews unless they have direct Jewish ancestry defined by mother, nothing else needed.

Only their mothers are European. There was a huge scandal in the Jewish community after publication of mtDNA data for Ashkenazi. They still refuse to believe their maternal lineages are European.

[Mopi The Dire Wolf]

Only their mothers are European. There was a huge scandal in the Jewish community after publication of mtDNA data for Ashkenazi. They still refuse to believe their maternal lineages are European.

Ashkenazi are mainly Imperial Age Italians (Southern Italian with Levantine)

[SUPREEEEEME]

"Believe what I say…"

"Otherwise, it’s a cope."

Neat display.

Cope and seethe.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-FGC4992/tree -- Malabari
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-Z39660/tree -- Paradesi
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-ZS4292/tree -- Paradesi
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FT14557/tree -- Kaifeng
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-FTF9916/tree -- Kaifeng

[Marco1900]

Well, going by that logic you can say the same about almost anything. It's like some people who (rightly) distrust the mainstream media and the government but they do it so much that they go to extremes not believing any single word they read or hear from those people. That's not very healthy in my opinion.
Regarding the Italians, I think a well-known international study found out Imperial Rome had a fucking lot of Middle Easterners from the east of the empire. Also, Southern Italy is just geographically very close to the Middle East and North Africa, obviously it's expected that they'd score more of that stuff than, say, Lombardians or Tyroleans, don't you think?

obviously, Rome at the time was like modern New York, there were many migrants from all over the known world, but that study i saw also says that Middle Eastern people disappeared after the fall of Rome. I partially agree that genetics and this type of graphs can be easily manipulated especially for a heterogeneous country like Italy but I don't deny that there are influences from the ancient Middle East in Italy, obviously there are espcially in the far south the near east influence is very big. even the Romans said they were the mixture between the Latin and Trojan people, this sums up Italian genetics better than all these graphics and percentages.

[MinervaItalica]

even the Romans said they were the mixture between the Latin and Trojan people, this sums up Italian genetics better than all these graphics and percentages.

Romans loved to link themself to Trojans due to their legacy. That is part of the legend.
Romans loved to glorify their origins, I dont think those kind of things can be used as source.

[libal]

Is it fair to say the Jews are continuation of the Romans?

[Marco1900]

Credo pero che quella storia abbia un po di veritá, almeno il periodo imperiale i latini e gli italici si mischiarono con un popolo dell oriente come i greci e gli anatolici. Gli italiani moderni sono in generale un mic di questi due, con al nord che c'é un po di influenza celto/germanica e al sud qualcosa di medio-orientale in eccesso

[Marco1900]

Is it fair to say the Jews are continuation of the Romans?

No

[MinervaItalica]

Credo pero che quella storia abbia un po di veritá, almeno il periodo imperiale i latini e gli italici si mischiarono con un popolo dell oriente come i greci e gli anatolici. Gli italiani moderni sono in generale un mic di questi due, con al nord che c'é un po di influenza celto/germanica e al sud qualcosa di medio-orientale in eccesso

They mixed with all conquered populations not only from ME this is what an empire usually do. That being said not much to change Italian gene pool or to make them have LOT of "MENA blood", whatever MENA blood is...
Also Romans used to live in provinces as well perhaps the one that mixed arent the Italian ones...

[Dušan]

How about this model:

cca 35% Samaritan, almost 60% central Italian and few percentage Slavic.

And no Slavic admixture among those in France and Germany, what is logical.
Later they moved from FR and DE to Slavic lands.

https://i.imgur.com/7eBOAYW.png

Seems I was right with cca 35%


Illustrative DNA full Askenazi result from Reddit:
Bronze Age: 32% Canaanite
Iron Age: 32.4% Phoenician
Migration period: 37% Roman Levant

https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/1fc39ce/994_ashkenazi_jew_wpic_at_the_end/

Interesting he got 3% East Asian.

[Johnson Reed]

How about this model:

cca 35% Samaritan, almost 60% central Italian and few percentage Slavic.

And no Slavic admixture among those in France and Germany, what is logical.
Later they moved from FR and DE to Slavic lands.

https://i.imgur.com/7eBOAYW.png

The issue is that the Italians at the time that Jews mixed with them were akin to modern South Italians, not modern Central Italians.

[J. Ketch]

I believe the ethnogenesis of modern Italians happened concurrently in Italy with that of European Jews, from the same mixture of Iron Age Italians and Levantines. From what I've seen Iron Age Italians were North Italian/Iberian-like across the peninsula (maybe the Greek settlements in the South were already East Med shifted, but Latium is the most important area), so I believe that is primarily what the paternal ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews mixed with.

[Ketchup]

The issue is that the Italians at the time that Jews mixed with them were akin to modern South Italians, not modern Central Italians.

the italians they mixed with were more "Northern" because if they mixed with Italians that were ethnically south italian, they wouldn't be so close to them

[Johnson Reed]

the italians they mixed with were more "Northern" because if they mixed with Italians that were ethnically south italian, they wouldn't be so close to them

They are also ~15% Central European.

[Dušan]

The issue is that the Italians at the time that Jews mixed with them were akin to modern South Italians, not modern Central Italians.

Check their result on Illustrative DNA.

This one got over 40% Canaanite/Phoenician/Roman Levant

https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/1c1fkdy/988_ashkenazi_jew_results_pic_at_end/


36-38%

https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/18dne7c/ashkenazi_jewish_results/

etc