Is someone who is half Italian, half Polish, really genetically equivalent to a Balkan Slav?

[Johnson Reed]

Think about it. With mixed populations like Balkan Slavs, they don't have it where each pair of chromosomes has one that is Slavic and one that is Italian, they have it where each chromosome in the pair has both Slavic and Italian admixture, in very small chunks.

So, is a first generation mix really akin to a population that was formed from the same mix hundreds or thousands of years prior?

[Beowulf]

Half_Italian_Half_Polish,0.1244759,0.1383735,0.038 8313,0.0148724,0.0303566,0.0062702,0.0039082,0.004 2262,0.0021469,0.0036828,-0.0023638,-0.0005117,0.0014673,0.006654,-0.0047564,0.0000076,0.0042496,0.0002586,0.001878,-0.0005236,-0.0032696,-0.0011814,0.0029606,-0.0001468,-0.0005894



I used G25 for this


<tbody>
Distance to:
Half_Italian_Half_Polish


0.01417295
Eastern_Europe_&_Russia:Romanian


0.03219098
Eastern_Europe_&_Russia:Hungarian


0.04022035
Germanic_Europe:Belgian


0.04106229
Germanic_Europe:German


0.04327056
France:French_Paris


0.04360386
France:French_Occitanie


0.04694371
Eastern_Europe_&_Russia:Czech


0.04750161
Germanic_Europe:German_East


0.04837200
Greece_&_the_Balkans:Albanian


0.05163180
Greece_&_the_Balkans:Greek_Thessaly


0.05262501
Italy:Italian_Lombardy


0.05637854
Italy:Italian_Tuscany


0.05640686
Germanic_Europe:Dutch


0.05646325
England_Wales_&_Northwestern_Europe:Welsh


0.05737372
Portugal:Portuguese


0.05751398
Spain:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon


0.05837478
England_Wales_&_Northwestern_Europe:English


0.05849318
Spain:Spanish_Andalucia


0.05886840
England_Wales_&_Northwestern_Europe:English_Cornwall


0.06022644
Spain:Spanish_Aragon


0.06101411
Ireland_&_Scotland:Scottish


0.06382916
France:French_South


0.06440982
Ireland_&_Scotland:Irish


0.06487641
Eastern_Europe_&_Russia:Polish


0.06626568
Sweden:Swedish


</tbody>

[tita]

It is mostly true for south italians, because there is a big difference between north and south italians.
South italians are genetically closest to greeks and north italians to spanish
I think most important traits like IQ, temperament etc is precisely the same between italian-polish and center balkan people

[Flashball]

Depending what "italian".

[sacha]

No. It's easy to be fooled by this if you take coordinate-based systems at their face value, but that would be silly.

If you average out two coordinates using G25, you will get a "midpoint" (that can actually be quite inaccurate especially if you're using scaled, but that's a story for another day). But this midpoint doesn't reflect the reality of a person's genetics.

In short, it only makes sense in the context of the coordinate system— not in the context of real life. This is the same way you can theoretically get a better fit using sources that don't accurately reflect your ancestry.

Beowulf's G25 average had the closest distances of some theoretical half Polish half Italian individual be Romanian and Hungarian. However, if this person was "genetically equivalent" to someone who was from these places, they would come out looking the same no? But they don't! They will have features that are both typically Polish and typically Italian; those things do not "average out" cleanly.

We like our coordinate systems here, but there's a reason why commercial genetic companies don't use them and can tell if you're half German half Russian instead of it averaging out to some Eastern European slop :p Populations evolved to be unique, uniquely.

[Mortimer]

I agree with sasha

[Upsilander]

I agree with Mortimer, who agrees with Sasha.

[Dušan]

Half Polish - half central Italian (Tuscany)

mix,0.125325,0.138527,0.041875,0.018364,0.032985,0 .006388,0.003808,0.004618,0.002358,0.002343,-0.002329,-0.000176,0.000809,0.007463,-0.004634,-0.000687,0.00185,0.000108,0.003014,-0.001271,-0.002548,-0.000856,0.002436,-0.000068,-0.000657



Distance to: mix
0.01417755 Serbian
0.01495836 Montenegrin
0.01784819 Romanian
0.01810308 Moldovan
0.02005659 Bosnian
0.02235072 Croatian
0.02333283 Austrian
0.02581184 Macedonian
0.02650137 Slovenian
0.02654696 Pomak_Rhodope_Mountains

[Peterski]

We like our coordinate systems here, but there's a reason why commercial genetic companies don't use them and can tell if you're half German half Russian instead of it averaging out

Commercial companies use ADMIXTURE calculators.

That said, I doubt if MyHeritage can tell the difference.

[sacha]

Commercial companies use ADMIXTURE calculators.

That said, I doubt if MyHeritage can tell the difference.

Yes dear, I said that they do not use coordinate systems. If someone likes pancakes it does not mean they hate waffles. :p

[Peterski]

Yes dear, I said that they do not use coordinate systems. If someone likes pancakes it does not mean they hate waffles. :p

Depends what you mean by coordinates. They don't use smartPCA coordinates like in G25, but they do use ADMIXTURE calculators similar to what you find on GEDmatch.

[Peterski]

And some commercial companies like MyHeritage are probably not good at telling apart a 50% Polish 50% Italian mix from a Balkan Slav.

[Peterski]

IllustrativeDNA is a commercial company which uses G25 coordinates. So there is a notable exception.

[sacha]

Depends what you mean by coordinates. They don't use smartPCA coordinates like in G25, but they do use ADMIXTURE calculators similar to what you find on GEDmatch.

The way I am defining using a “coordinate system” is only dealing with the “final product” (i.e. a sheet of G25 or HW or whatever), which can remove some nuance. I didn’t want to be too specific considering the scope of the question.

To be honest I’ve taken quite a break from the whole genetics sphere, so I might be a little off here or there, but fundamentally the difference between for example ADMIXTURE approach and datasheet approach (there’s a better word for this but I am blanking ahaha) is mainly that block relaxation makes it far easier to identify individual population proportions from a smaller set of predetermined sources, whilst the other is more contextual— there’s another layer of abstraction on top of it.


And some commercial companies like MyHeritage are probably not good at telling apart a 50% Polish 50% Italian mix from a Balkan Slav.

MyHeritage ethnicity estimates are essentially a scam because of their incredibly awful samples. Also, you mentioned IllustrativeDNA and I am too lazy to quote it— they don’t administer tests no?

[Peterski]

The way I am defining using a “coordinate system” is only dealing with the “final product” (i.e. a sheet of G25 or HW or whatever), which can remove some nuance. I didn’t want to be too specific considering the scope of the question.

To be honest I’ve taken quite a break from the whole genetics sphere, so I might be a little off here or there, but fundamentally the difference between for example ADMIXTURE approach and datasheet approach (there’s a better word for this but I am blanking ahaha) is mainly that block relaxation makes it far easier to identify individual population proportions from a smaller set of predetermined sources, whilst the other is more contextual— there’s another layer of abstraction on top of it.

Yes I know what you mean. Well in such case 24Genetics company is combining ADMIXTURE approach and datasheet approach because their test is basically a K36 nMonte run (or several runs).


MyHeritage ethnicity estimates are essentially a scam because of their incredibly awful samples. Also, you mentioned IllustrativeDNA and I am too lazy to quote it— they don’t administer tests no?

IllustrativeDNA don't administer their own test kits. AFAIK they only rely on raw data transfers, but this might change in the future, if they get a lab.

[Leto]

Half Italian half Polish people would be racially similar to Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians. Especially if the Italian part is Southern or Central. After all, the medieval Slavs were very close to Poles and many of the pre-Slavic Balkan populations were essentially Mediterranean and somewhat similar to Italians (Italy is diverse). But of course that doesn't mean such an individual has a right to waltz into Romania or Serbia and demand citizenship or that the locals consider him a native.

The same would be true for a half Lebanese half German person being similar to Italians.

[Upsilander]

Yes dear, I said that they do not use coordinate systems. If someone likes pancakes it does not mean they hate waffles. :p

This is why you need IBD and some companies use that as well in conjunction to admixture. Both combined, give a much better picture closer to reality, for individuals. The Italian-Polish who plots in Romania wouldn't share elevated segments with Romanians but a lot more with Polish and Italians. Thus confirming he is not Romanian but indeed a Italian-Polish mix.

It's like that Conversano guy who claims to be French when he scores 0.0% French on 23andme, because they use IBD segments and not just plain admixtures which has a tendency to overpolarize things in every directions.


Or the Pole here who is convinced im part Slav based on my G25 results. Dude i score no "eastern Euro" on 23andme, give me a break.

[Johnson Reed]

And some commercial companies like MyHeritage are probably not good at telling apart a 50% Polish 50% Italian mix from a Balkan Slav.

Shouldn't it be easy, since there is no crossover in a first-generation mix, and half of the chromosomes would be Polish and the other half Italian?


Half Italian half Polish people would be racially similar to Serbs, Bulgarians and Romanians. Especially if the Italian part is Southern or Central. After all, the medieval Slavs were very close to Poles and many of the pre-Slavic Balkan populations were essentially Mediterranean and somewhat similar to Italians (Italy is diverse). But of course that doesn't mean such an individual has a right to waltz into Romania or Serbia and demand citizenship or that the locals consider him a native.

The same would be true for a half Lebanese half German person being similar to Italians.

But not really, since a Serbian would have all of his chromosomes having small mixed up chunks of Slavic and Italian blood, whereas someone half Slavic and half Italian would have half of his chromosomes as pure Slavic and half of his chromosomes as Italian.

[djipon]

One of my best friends is half-Bulgarian and half-Polish and his results are equivalent to Bosnian/Croatian, so you can use that as some kind of comparison, if you wish...

https://i.postimg.cc/RF8YH1zh/image.png

[Tooting Carmen]

The irony here is that, while Southern Italians are certainly among the darkest Europeans, on the other hand Northern and Central Italians are no darker than most Balkan Slavs (and I'd even wager that Montenegrins, North Macedonians and Bulgarians at least are actually darker than them).

[Lioncourt]

From what I have seen, many Bulgarians come out as almost 50-50 Polish/Ukrainian and Southern Italian/Ashkenazi on two population combinations.

[djipon]

And some commercial companies like MyHeritage are probably not good at telling apart a 50% Polish 50% Italian mix from a Balkan Slav.

In the new update my Bulgarian-Polish friend received, they actually managed to separate them perfectly, but he could just be a happy case :)

[Lioncourt]

The irony here is that, while Southern Italians are certainly among the darkest Europeans, on the other hand Northern and Central Italians are no darker than most Balkan Slavs (and I'd even wager that Montenegrins, North Macedonians and Bulgarians at least are actually darker than them).

Maybe darker than villagers from the Alps and around, not darker than current Northern Italians many of who are partially or fully Southern Italian by origin.

[Johnson Reed]

The irony here is that, while Southern Italians are certainly among the darkest Europeans, on the other hand Northern and Central Italians are no darker than most Balkan Slavs (and I'd even wager that Montenegrins, North Macedonians and Bulgarians at least are actually darker than them).

I think Serbs are lighter than Italians. They can be modeled as half Polish, half Tuscan, apparently...


Maybe darker than villagers from the Alps and around, not darker than current Northern Italians many of who are partially or fully Southern Italian by origin.

[Tooting Carmen]

Maybe darker than villagers from the Alps and around, not darker than current Northern Italians many of who are partially or fully Southern Italian by origin.

During last year's Rugby World Cup, I made a thread about Portuguese, Italian and Romanian rugby players. The Italians were mostly from the North (which is where rugby is concentrated in Italy), and tbh the Romanians had more exotic/off-white types among them than the Italians.

[Tooting Carmen]

From what I have seen, many Bulgarians come out as almost 50-50 Polish/Ukrainian and Southern Italian/Ashkenazi on two population combinations.

Key part in bold. Where do Bulgarians plot viz-a-viz Northern Italians?

[Lioncourt]

During last year's Rugby World Cup, I made a thread about Portuguese, Italian and Romanian rugby players. The Italians were mostly from the North (which is where rugby is concentrated in Italy), and tbh the Romanians had more exotic/off-white types among them than the Italians.

Romanians have more exotic types than Bulgarians and Macedonians, but they also have a tiny bit more quintessential Eastern Euro types to compensate.

[Beowulf]

No. It's easy to be fooled by this if you take coordinate-based systems at their face value, but that would be silly.

If you average out two coordinates using G25, you will get a "midpoint" (that can actually be quite inaccurate especially if you're using scaled, but that's a story for another day). But this midpoint doesn't reflect the reality of a person's genetics.

In short, it only makes sense in the context of the coordinate system— not in the context of real life. This is the same way you can theoretically get a better fit using sources that don't accurately reflect your ancestry.

Beowulf's G25 average had the closest distances of some theoretical half Polish half Italian individual be Romanian and Hungarian. However, if this person was "genetically equivalent" to someone who was from these places, they would come out looking the same no? But they don't! They will have features that are both typically Polish and typically Italian; those things do not "average out" cleanly.

We like our coordinate systems here, but there's a reason why commercial genetic companies don't use them and can tell if you're half German half Russian instead of it averaging out to some Eastern European slop :p Populations evolved to be unique, uniquely.

It does makes a lot of sense :nod:

[Tooting Carmen]

Romanians have more exotic types than Bulgarians and Macedonians, but they also have a tiny bit more quintessential Eastern Euro types to compensate.

Just to clarify: I do mean ethnic Romanians here, not Gypsies or part-Gypsies.

[Lioncourt]

Key part in bold. Where do Bulgarians plot viz-a-viz Northern Italians?

Almost straight line to the east, very slightly more northern shifted.

[Tooting Carmen]

Almost straight line to the east, very slightly more northern shifted.

N.B. Here is the thread I just mentioned: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?377463-Portuguese-Italian-and-Romanian-squads-in-2023-Rugby-World-Cup-Compare-and-contrast

[Johnson Reed]

Just to clarify: I do mean ethnic Romanians here, not Gypsies or part-Gypsies.

It makes no sense for them to have more exotic types when they are more northern and plot more northern.

[Tooting Carmen]

It makes no sense for them to have more exotic types when they are more northern and plot more northern.

But they are also more easterly and have had historic connections to Turkey and the Caucasus.

[Lioncourt]

It makes no sense for them to have more exotic types when they are more northern and plot more northern.

Romanian and Bulgarian cluster have like 70-80% overlap. Macedonians are a bit more southern shifted, Bulgarians with predominant origin from Aegean Macedonia and Eastern Thrace plot with them - as they might be related by blood.

[Demirkazık]

But they are also more easterly and have had historic connections to Turkey and the Caucasus.

Just for your information, Bulgaria has deeper historic ties to Turkey than Romania does, as the Ottomans had greater influence over Bulgaria, while Wallachia and Bogdan were merely vassal states.

[Tooting Carmen]

Just for your information, Bulgaria has deeper historic ties to Turkey than Romania does, as the Ottomans had greater influence over Bulgaria, while Wallachia and Bogdan were merely vassal states.

I meant compared to Italy.

[Gorilla]

No. It's easy to be fooled by this if you take coordinate-based systems at their face value, but that would be silly.

If you average out two coordinates using G25, you will get a "midpoint" (that can actually be quite inaccurate especially if you're using scaled, but that's a story for another day). But this midpoint doesn't reflect the reality of a person's genetics.

In short, it only makes sense in the context of the coordinate system— not in the context of real life. This is the same way you can theoretically get a better fit using sources that don't accurately reflect your ancestry.

Beowulf's G25 average had the closest distances of some theoretical half Polish half Italian individual be Romanian and Hungarian. However, if this person was "genetically equivalent" to someone who was from these places, they would come out looking the same no? But they don't! They will have features that are both typically Polish and typically Italian; those things do not "average out" cleanly.

We like our coordinate systems here, but there's a reason why commercial genetic companies don't use them and can tell if you're half German half Russian instead of it averaging out to some Eastern European slop :p Populations evolved to be unique, uniquely.

It depends on the person. Patrizio Stronati is half Italian half Czech and he looks very Balkan.

[Johnson Reed]

But they are also more easterly and have had historic connections to Turkey and the Caucasus.


Romanian and Bulgarian cluster have like 70-80% overlap. Macedonians are a bit more southern shifted, Bulgarians with predominant origin from Aegean Macedonia and Eastern Thrace plot with them - as they might be related by blood.

Wouldn't Bulgarians have more Siberian than Romanians, though, since Bulgars were a Turkic (???) tribe?

[Balboa]

Yes they are, especially half northern Italian since they dont have the levantine admix that southern italians have. Here is a Half Belarussian half North Italian mix

Distance to: HalfBelarusHalfItaly
0.01539417 Serbian
0.01592768 Croatian
0.01613306 Moldovan
0.01728185 Bosnian
0.01889455 Montenegrin
0.01927031 Slovenian
0.02166435 Hungarian
0.02213567 Austrian
0.02302676 Romanian
0.02957744 German_Erlangen
0.02983915 Macedonian
0.03171138 Pomak_Rhodope_Mountains
0.03284082 Bulgarian
0.03315287 French_Alsace
0.03340884 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03538076 German
0.03643189 Italian_Northeast
0.03660001 Czech
0.03682952 German_East
0.03695325 Pomak_Danubian_Plain
0.03810105 French_Nord
0.03835947 Swiss_German
0.03859599 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04063163 BelgianA
0.04107400 Turkish_West_Macedonia

[Johnson Reed]

Yes they are, especially half northern Italian since they dont have the levantine admix that southern italians have. Here is a Half Belarussian half North Italian mix

Distance to: HalfBelarusHalfItaly
0.01539417 Serbian
0.01592768 Croatian
0.01613306 Moldovan
0.01728185 Bosnian
0.01889455 Montenegrin
0.01927031 Slovenian
0.02166435 Hungarian
0.02213567 Austrian
0.02302676 Romanian
0.02957744 German_Erlangen
0.02983915 Macedonian
0.03171138 Pomak_Rhodope_Mountains
0.03284082 Bulgarian
0.03315287 French_Alsace
0.03340884 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03538076 German
0.03643189 Italian_Northeast
0.03660001 Czech
0.03682952 German_East
0.03695325 Pomak_Danubian_Plain
0.03810105 French_Nord
0.03835947 Swiss_German
0.03859599 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04063163 BelgianA
0.04107400 Turkish_West_Macedonia

You are missing what I'm saying. Yes, they plot together, but if you look at their chromosomes, the half Pole/half Italian will have, for each pair of chromosomes, one that is Italian, one that is Polish, whereas the Serb will have small bits of Polish and Italian all mixed together and both chromosomes in each pair.

[Peterski]

You are missing what I'm saying. Yes, they plot together, but if you look at their chromosomes, the half Pole/half Italian will have, for each pair of chromosomes, one that is Italian, one that is Polish, whereas the Serb will have small bits of Polish and Italian all mixed together and both chromosomes in each pair.

Yes that's like the difference between first generation Mestizo and MGM Mestizo.

MGM stands for multi-generational mixed person.

[Damião de Góis]

For people wondering about distances and midpoints, you can get an approximate idea by looking at european PCAs such as this one:

https://sun9-3.userapi.com/impg/AR9flmKCryJT36WvLyOnYn4zbGWIAQVZ9Txbyw/u6hquqGH2l8.jpg?size=844x807&quality=95&sign=2b64bb3ae7ac10f95b8cfadbc705b3a0&type=album

[Alenka]

No. It's easy to be fooled by this if you take coordinate-based systems at their face value, but that would be silly.

If you average out two coordinates using G25, you will get a "midpoint" (that can actually be quite inaccurate especially if you're using scaled, but that's a story for another day). But this midpoint doesn't reflect the reality of a person's genetics.

In short, it only makes sense in the context of the coordinate system— not in the context of real life. This is the same way you can theoretically get a better fit using sources that don't accurately reflect your ancestry.

Beowulf's G25 average had the closest distances of some theoretical half Polish half Italian individual be Romanian and Hungarian. However, if this person was "genetically equivalent" to someone who was from these places, they would come out looking the same no? But they don't! They will have features that are both typically Polish and typically Italian; those things do not "average out" cleanly.

We like our coordinate systems here, but there's a reason why commercial genetic companies don't use them and can tell if you're half German half Russian instead of it averaging out to some Eastern European slop :p Populations evolved to be unique, uniquely.
Actually, such half-breeds do sometimes "average out" phenotypically.
I know of several cases of half-Italian half-Russian individuals who look amazingly South Slavic.
Passing much easier in the Balkans than either Russia or Italy.