Turkey threatens France over stance on killing of Armenians by Ottomans

[Loki]

Turkey threatens France over stance on killing of Armenians by Ottomans (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/19/turkey-threaten-france-armenia-genocide)

French parliament to debate proposal to prosecute people who deny mass killings were an act of genocide

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/12/19/1324321845416/Recep-Tayyip-Erdogan-Fran-007.jpg

Turkey has threatened to denounce France's colonial past at international meetings in retaliation for French plans to prosecute people who deny that the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks was genocide.

Turkey rejects the term genocide to describe the killings of Armenians more than 90 years ago. Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed and experts say it was the first genocide of the 20th century.

France considers the killings a genocide. The lower house of the French parliament is to debate a proposal that would punish anyone denying that the slaughter was genocide with one year in prison and a €45,000 (£37,700) fine.

The issue threatens to further harm Turkish-French relations already tense over French president Nicolas Sarkozy's opposition to Turkey's bid to join the EU.

Turkey has threatened to withdraw its ambassador to France if the bill is passed, while prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said the country should investigate alleged French abuses in Algeria and Rwanda instead.

France had troops in Rwanda in 1994, and Rwandan president Paul Kagame has accused the country of doing little to stop the country's genocide.

Turkey's foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu said on Sunday that Ankara would bring up the issue of "French colonialism" and "start talking about truths everywhere in the world". His words were carried by the state-run Anadolu agency.

Meanwhile, France's foreign ministry said on Monday that foreign minister Alain Juppe would meet a delegation from Turkey's parliament on Tuesday to discuss the draft law.

Volkan Bozkir, head of the foreign affairs committee, and opposition figure Osman Koruturk are leading the delegation that is lobbying French legislators against the bill.

Turks have called for a boycott of French goods and companies in retaliation for the draft law.

Turkish government officials say trade rules and a customs union agreement between Turkey and the EU forbid an official boycott of France – an important economic partner.

Turkey's economy minister said, however, that a joint Turkish-French economic co-operation meeting scheduled for January could be cancelled if the bill is passed.

[Padre Organtino]

They are obviously doing a bad service to Armenians by tabooing the debating of the subjetc. While the Genocide is hard to deny the sheer fact of ban on alternative thought might provoke pro-Turkish sentiment.
That said French most probably have their own agenda and are using the Genocide as a casus belli to start a conflict with Turks.

[Loki]

That said French most probably have their own agenda and are using the Genocide as a casus belli to start a conflict with Turks.

That's probably part of it. France doesn't want Turkey in the EU.

[Logan]

That's probably part of it. France doesn't want Turkey in the EU.

Good point Loki, as usual. In any case they would have to rename to The Eurasian Union. :rolleyes:

Childish.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Armenians were not targeted for being Armenians. A segment of their population was targeted for arming themselfs against Ottoman state and cooperating with Russians. There were cases were they opened fire to Turkish civilians.

What is there to do when there is a situation like this? You have to disarm them. They did not want to disarm themselves and live peacefully and those were the consequences.

War is not genocide.

[Logan]

Armenians were not targeted for being Armenians. A segment of their population was targeted for arming themselfs against Ottoman state and cooperating with Russians. There were cases were they opened fire to Turkish civilians.

What is there to do when there is a situation like this? You have to disarm them. They did not want to disarm themselves and live peacefully and those were the consequences.

War is not genocide.


I believe there to be evidence of it. ;)

[Joe McCarthy]

Looks like the Armenia lobby strikes again. I don't see why uninvolved third parties should have to debate long over historical atrocities.

[Incal]

I'm all for free speech, but I'm pretty sure this move has been made to just exclusively piss off the Turks. Another factor is that France has a strong armenian diaspora or so I've heard.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I'm all for free speech, but I'm pretty sure this move has been made to just exclusively piss off the Turks. Another factor is that France has a strong armenian diaspora or so I've heard.

Joe McCarthy has a strong point. Armenians have a similar tendency to Jews in diaspora to attempt to influence things to make to their side. Gladly for us, they are not as powerful not as intelligent as jews. If the Armenians were as powerful and intelligent, we would simply not exist.

[TheBorrebyViking]

I'm all for free speech, but I'm pretty sure this move has been made to just exclusively piss off the Turks. Another factor is that France has a strong armenian diaspora or so I've heard.

I agree, and I hate the EU, but NO FUCKING WAY THE TURKS ARE EUROPEAN! They have no place in the EU, just like the Armenians don't either.

[Joe McCarthy]

Joe McCarthy has a strong point. Armenians have a similar tendency to Jews in diaspora to attempt to influence things to make to their side. Gladly for us, they are not as powerful not as intelligent as jews. If the Armenians were as powerful and intelligent, we would simply not exist.

You're correct on all points. The Armenia lobby in the US also tries to destroy the US relationship with Turkey. So does the Greek lobby.

[Panopticon]

Armenians were not targeted for being Armenians. A segment of their population was targeted for arming themselfs against Ottoman state and cooperating with Russians. There were cases were they opened fire to Turkish civilians.

What is there to do when there is a situation like this? You have to disarm them. They did not want to disarm themselves and live peacefully and those were the consequences.

War is not genocide.

Nice logic there: "they asked for it so they got it". You can't argue against the fact that the Armenian genocide is real because they somehow had provoked their genocide and therefore according to broken logic or just cynical denial deserved it. They might've provoked it but that doesn't change that there were 1-1.5 million Armenian deaths, of which most were civilians that were slaughtered systematically.

I hope more countries recognize the Armenian genocide. That would be one step closer to a world where truth isn't denied due to politics. I don't think people should be punished for denying anything however.

[Contra Mundum]

Ironic that some of Joe's biggest supporters are Albanian and Turkish Muslims.

[CuriousQuisling]

Persecution for opinions. This is so Orwellian.
We need to let people and their opinions be.
Go after the muggers and the rapists, not the revisionists.

Q.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Nice logic there: "they asked for it so they got it". You can't argue against the fact that the Armenian genocide is real because they somehow had provoked their genocide and therefore according to broken logic or just cynical denial deserved it. They might've provoked it but that doesn't change that there were 1-1.5 million Armenian deaths, of which most were civilians that were slaughtered systematically.

I hope France recognises the Armenian genocide and the rest of the countries who haven't as well. That would be one step closer to a world where truth isn't denied due to politics.

Give me your definition of genocide first? Armenians were not slaughtered systematically, there were lots of Armenians in government positions over all the empire. It was not a situation of racial extermination. We never had an "Armenian problem" until they started siding with the russians. Many of these "civilians" were arming themselves with the Russia. They were trying attrition war. It didn't work for them.

[Incal]

Looks like the Armenia lobby strikes again. I don't see why uninvolved third parties should have to debate long over historical atrocities.

LOL Joe you don't seem to be as strict when it comes to your beloved jewish lobby.

[Joe McCarthy]

Ironic that some of Joe's biggest supporters are Albanian and Turkish Muslims.

The question is: why is France involving itself in a century old conflict between Turkey and Armenia? It'd be like the US Congress taking up the Spanish Inquisition. It's idiocy.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

The question is: why is France involving itself in a century old conflict between Turkey and Armenia? It'd be like the US Congress taking up the Spanish Inquisition. It's idiocy.

Modern Turkey should not be blamed for past atrocities during different eras. It was not more genocide than Russians in Chechnya, just fight against separatist.

[Contra Mundum]

The question is: why is France involving itself in a century old conflict between Turkey and Armenia? It'd be like the US Congress taking up the Spanish Inquisition. It's idiocy.

Why are they building Holocaust memorials and monuments in America, Canada and Australia?

[Stars Down To Earth]

I agree with whoever said there is no way in hell the Turks are European. They should be treated as the Asian foreigners they are. The flooding of Europe with waves of Turkish immigrants and their constant nagging to get into the EU simply reeks of Neo-Ottomanism.

In an ideal world, the Turks would give back Constantinople to the Greeks, get out of Europe altogether, and look eastwards instead. Maybe connect more with other Turkic-speaking countries, and forming a sort of Central Asian bloc. In that case, I could see the Turks being an Asian force to reckon with, and perhaps an ally of Europe whenever it's time to smack down the Muslim Arabs. In other words, dumping this pretense of "Europeanness" and instead going back to their organic Turkic roots.

I'd like to see an organic nationalist revival in every country, and Turkey isn't an exception.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Why are they building Holocaust memorials and monuments in America, Canada and Australia?

They ideally should not be made. 2 wrongs do not make one right.

But is because jews have strong lobby in such countries.

[Logan]

[QUOTE=Loki;640307]Turkey threatens France over stance on killing of Armenians by Ottomans (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/19/turkey-threaten-france-armenia-genocide)

French parliament to debate proposal to prosecute people who deny mass killings were an act of genocide

QUOTE]

Same as the French attitude towards the Nazis.

JYP2i8vF7C8

Solution. Own up.

[Joe McCarthy]

Why are they building Holocaust memorials and monuments in America, Canada and Australia?

I agree with that too. The US is not responsible for the Holocaust. If anyone is to blame it is Germany alone.

[Joe McCarthy]

If anything we should show some respect, even if grudging, to Turkey for refusing to succumb to ethnic shakedowns and let it create a guilt complex in their collective psyche. We Westerners succumbed to that nonsense long ago.

[TheBorrebyViking]

I agree with that too. The US is not responsible for the Holocaust. If anyone is to blame it is Germany alone.

The bombing of the railways, which stopped the food supply going to the camps, is not the USA's fault? Or do you mean it's not the UMS's(United Mexican States) fault?

[Panopticon]

Give me your definition of genocide first? Armenians were not slaughtered systematically, there were lots of Armenians in government positions over all the empire. It was not a situation of racial extermination. We never had an "Armenian problem" until they started siding with the russians. Many of these "civilians" were arming themselves with the Russia. They were trying attrition war. It didn't work for them.

I'm too lazy to define it myself so I'll just quote Wikipedia: "Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Turkey did systematically slaughter Armenians so there was a genocide.

[Panopticon]

delete

[PBachman]

Nice logic there: "they asked for it so they got it". You can't argue against the fact that the Armenian genocide is real because they somehow had provoked their genocide and therefore according to broken logic or just cynical denial deserved it. They might've provoked it but that doesn't change that there were 1-1.5 million Armenian deaths, of which most were civilians that were slaughtered systematically.

I hope France recognises the Armenian genocide and the rest of the countries who haven't as well. That would be one step closer to a world where truth isn't denied due to politics.

As I agree with you, when arguing with Turks it is must to highlight that, if indeed, "Armenians had provoked them", why did the the Armenian intellectuals and industrialist willing go along with Young Turk government? The Armenian population in Turkey, willingly, gave up their weapons and joined Turks in the war effort. However, the Turks worked the Armenian regiments to death via labor camps. Even to the end, the Armenians in Turkey supported the Young Turk regime, as within these labor camps there was no attempt to rebel. It makes no sense to claim they "provoked it". The Armenians in Turkey, as a whole, did not really want to get involved in any armed conflict.

I view the Christian genocide in Turkey as a state sponsored genocide against its Turkish nationals. It was a Turkish genocide on Turkish Christians. Viewed from this lens, it makes sense why Turks need to repatriate their Christian populations back in the region, provide compensation, and return any confiscated asset.

However, the problem is not so much that it is an "insult to Turkishness", rather, the major political elite in Turkey have roots in the Young Turk regime. Essentially, most of the characters were prevalent in the formation of the modern republic. And in fact, if you dig deep enough, there are oil interest that were tied to the great game between England, Russia, and bankers. All these conflicts, have a economic catalyst. At the time, Armenians were clustered around oil and potential routes of oil. As seeing how Armenians are entrepreneurs and had experience developing the oil industry in the Middle-East, it quite possible, was the reason why the intellectuals and elite were murdered, as well as, the rest of the 1 to 1.5 million Armenians.

[PBachman]

I'm too lazy to define it myself so I'll just quote Wikipedia: "Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Turkey did systematically slaughter Armenians so there was a genocide.

Yes, it was systematic. The very fact that they had planned to "relocate" the Christian population, providing armed guards, and etc., goes to show the extent of the planning. The very fact that they then hired Kurds or bargained the national self-determination of Kurds for the genocide of Christians, is indeed, a systematic; therefore, Genocide. It can't be compared to colonialism or even the Holocaust. As with all Genocides, there are similarities, but all have unique characteristics.

Going back, I hope everyone watches Grandma's Tattoos. They even had a systematic way of stealing children. As the good looking girls and boys were taken up; adopted in the case of boys and married to 70 year old Turks in the case of girls. The rest were used as sex slaves and etc. The ones that died on the death marches had it easy. It was the children that were "saved" by Turks and Kurds that had it worse. It is even documented that they used some girls as incubators. Pumping out children.

[Joe McCarthy]

LOL Joe you don't seem to be as strict when it comes to your beloved jewish lobby.

I've repeatedly stated I want all foreign lobbies outlawed in the US.

[Joe McCarthy]

The bombing of the railways, which stopped the food supply going to the camps, is not the USA's fault? Or do you mean it's not the UMS's(United Mexican States) fault?

We weren't the nuts that decided to start targeting Jews as a group and rounding them up to put them in camps. Bombing railways had obvious military applications as it inhibited Nazi Germany's capacity to wage aggressive war.

[PBachman]

I've repeatedly stated I want all foreign lobbies outlawed in the US.

Well, as an American, I believe the foreign lobbies are a problem for the United States, but as an American, I find it distasteful that we snick our noses into places that it does not belong. Our foreign policy is asymmetric. For example, America sells a lot military hardware to Turkey and Azerbaijan via Israel. That is why Armenian-Americans protest via their lobbies against the neo-American foreign policy. You can't have it both ways. You can't sell weapons of mass destruction to irresponsible countries and not expect their to be a blowback by concerned citizens.

Furthermore, the Armenian and Greek lobbies are transparent. Conversely, the other lobbies (to be nameless) are not. Google Sibel Edmonds, you will then know what I am talking, Sibel Edmonds is a Turkish-American born in Turkey that worked for the CIA. She is an asset to the United States and I am proud that we have citizens like her working for the government. She blew the lid on how various foreigners were bribing officials. Specifically, it was Turkish nationals bribing American politicians to secure lucrative weapons contracts and sensitive information that was vital to the interest of the United States. Her reward was a being fired. The mainstream media has largely ignored her. Nobody is following up on this very real issue. Her story is tragic, as she did the right thing, but was punished for it.

Trust me mate, the higher the seat of power, the more corrupt the entity. You have to understand, the United State has a skewed foreign policy. IT should not be selling weapons to any country. Especially, one like Turkey and Azerbaijan

[PBachman]

Joe, I forgot to mention. The major difference between the Armenian and Turkish lobby, is that while the prior is largely formed by Armenian-Americans that are concerned about the direction of American foreign policy, the latter, the Turkish lobby, is a comprised of foreigners. These are mostly entities that are backed by the Turkish Republic. As Sibel Edmond highlighted, which I summarize, the Turkish lobby tries to steal vital American secrets. It is a clear-cut case of foreign espionage on the scale of how Ethel and Julius Rosenberg stole the secrets of nuclear technology. If anything, you should support the Greek and Armenian lobby, they are fighting for noble reasons that all Americans should be proud of, including yourself.

[TheBorrebyViking]

We weren't the nuts that decided to start targeting Jews as a group and rounding them up to put them in camps. Bombing railways had obvious military applications as it inhibited Nazi Germany's capacity to wage aggressive war.

Nope, but you started putting Germans and Japanese into camps.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by PBachman
I find it distasteful that we snick our noses into places that it does not belong.

I find it distasteful that anyone seriously thinks a Superpower can pursue an isolationist foreign policy.


For example, America sells a lot military hardware to Turkey and Azerbaijan via Israel.

We sell to Turkey to keep them in our sphere of influence. If we didn't we'd have less influence with Turkey. We also sell to Greece, so it offsets.


That is why Armenian-Americans protest via their lobbies against the neo-American foreign policy.

Perfectly understandable. But it's also perfectly understandable that we would not concern ourselves with Armenia as it is not in our interests to do so.


You can't have it both ways.

Foreign policy is not something where an obligation exists to be fair. Its purpose is to pursue the interests of the United States, not Armenia. Therefore lobbies, such as the Armenian lobby, that lobby on behalf of foreign powers must be banned.

[Joe McCarthy]

Nope, but you started putting Germans and Japanese into camps.

Which was in no way equivalent, and is entirely beside the point.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Which was in no way equivalent, and is entirely beside the point.

Yes it was. You put fucking people in camps, it's the same.

[PBachman]

I find it distasteful that anyone seriously thinks a Superpower can pursue an isolationist foreign policy.

Well you don't necessarily have to be an "isolationist". You should work with everyone. That is my point. The United States has a very skewed foreign policy in favor of only handful of countries. A few, like Turkey, are not really trustworthy as highlighted by the Sibel Edmonds case. Please, google her.


We sell to Turkey to keep them in our sphere of influence. If we didn't we'd have less influence with Turkey. We also sell to Greece, so it offsets.

Come on, we don't have even record of sales to Turkey. Turkey's entire military hardware is comprised for American weapons. The major customer of the United States arms industry is Turkey. Greece on the other hand, does not have a military on the scale of Turkey. Turkey is clearly trying to project hard power to try to "influence" the region via saber rattling. All policies that it supports are counter to American ideals. The very fact that their is a law in place that arrests journalist is indication that Turkey is another failed Muslim democracy. We have invested in Turkey irrationally. It has not produced anything tangible or intangible thus far. You can't deny the fact that our foreign policy, thus far, has been horrible.


Perfectly understandable. But it's also perfectly understandable that we would not concern ourselves woth Armenia as it is not in our interests to do so.

Well, I believe myself and many in the Kremlin disagree. As Armenia is the only relative democracy in the region. Furthermore, it is the bulwark that separates Eurasia from the Green belt. The events that are conspiring are the sames during the Byzantine Empire. You have two Western civilizations competing with one another. All the why, the "janitors" that are brought into the palace eventually overthrow the ruling elite. The foreign policy of the United States, if it continues in this direction, will wound Western countries and ultimately, will lead to the rise of Islamic civilization that will swallow Europe. The only bastion of "western civilization" left is Russia. Again, the foreign policy of America can not be asymmetric in support of Turkey. If Turkey has a border with Azerbaijan, what is stopping the Turks from executing a pan-Turkic foreign policy? We will then be slaves to both Arabs and Turks.


Foreign policy is not something where an obligation exists to be fair. Its purpose is to pursue the interests of the United States, not Armenia. Therefore lobbies, such as the Armenian lobby, that lobby on behalf of foreign powers must be banned.

Well, history tells us otherwise. We lost Asia Minor to Islam because the Byzantine Empire had a foreign policy similar to that of the United States. It underestimated many things.

[Nairi]

French Parliament did pass the law. Too bad for Turks and Jews since they are the only ones who deny the Genocide. 4 powerful Zionist lobbies (including obviously ADL) are the reason Armenian Genocide resolution is not passed in USA. Plus Turkish an Azeri lobbies. But Jeiwish ones are the real problem.

Turkey,Azerbaijan and Israel are only countries which oficcially DENY the Genocide.
Georgia is the fourth country which politicians oficcially deny the Genocide but haven't made it an oficcial statmement of the country.
Many countries have recognised, most USA states recognised, Wales out of UK recognised and there are only 80 Armenians living there, all is done due to the efforts of a Welsh man, as far as I remember Irish Parliament also recognised.

Other countries are nuetral...

[TheBorrebyViking]

The Jews deny anyone who isn't on their side the right to Genocide. Look at the Ukraine and their genocide from the USSR.

[Nairi]

The Jews deny anyone who isn't on their side the right to Genocide. Look at the Ukraine and their genocide from the USSR.

Well, Jews say Genocide/Holocaust only happened to them, they also claim first concentration camps were built to burn Jews, but that is a lie, in first concentration camps were burnt alive Boer wives and kids.How many people know? Not many, I guess...

http://nuwegeskiedenis.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/VROUEMONUMENT5.jpg

[TheBorrebyViking]

Well, Jews say Genocide/Holocaust only happened to them, they also claim first concentration camps were built to burn Jews, but that is a lie, in first concentration camps were burnt alive Boer wives and kids.How many people know? Not many, I guess...

http://nuwegeskiedenis.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/VROUEMONUMENT5.jpg

The Jews tried to claim that shit in WWI and it never caught on. They said 6 million there too.

[Nairi]

The Jews tried to claim that shit in WWI and it never caught on. They said 6 million there too.

I read your convo with Hungarian guy about similar things right before you got banned ;)

[Nairi]

Turkish hackers took down website of French genocide bill initiator Boyer.

[HungAryan]

I find it distasteful that anyone seriously thinks a Superpower can pursue an isolationist foreign policy.

So, you are a superpower?
We can have that problem solved easily... http://partneryahoo.photobucket.com/albums/af334/dbust3r/smile/th_trollface.png


http://www.pakalertpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/false-flag-Nuke-attack-on-Amercia.jpg
http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/2/2d/Trollface_HD.png/618px-Trollface_HD.png

[Joe McCarthy]

Well, Jews say Genocide/Holocaust only happened to them, they also claim first concentration camps were built to burn Jews, but that is a lie, in first concentration camps were burnt alive Boer wives and kids.How many people know? Not many, I guess...

http://nuwegeskiedenis.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/VROUEMONUMENT5.jpg

Who were these Boers burnt alive?

I understand your overall point though. But we should also observe that the Boers, unlike Armenians and Jews, don't take their tear story to every unrelated government on earth to make the British pay some kind of penance.

[HungAryan]

I understand your overall point though. But we should also observe that the Boers, unlike Jews, don't take their tear story to every unrelated government on earth to make the British pay some kind of penance.

That's because Boers - unlike Jews - don't own half of the world's wealth, and don't have those super-powerful lobbies in Europe and America :rolleyes:
That's the difference.

[Joe McCarthy]

That's because Boers - unlike Jews - don't own half of the world's wealth, and don't have those super-powerful lobbies in Europe and America :rolleyes:
That's the difference.

No, the difference is that Boers aren't Jews and Armenians.

[HungAryan]

No, the difference is that Boers aren't Jews.

No, the difference is that unlike Jews, Boers don't have an agenda.
Boers don't want to dominate the world, for example... :rolleyes:

[Nairi]

No, the difference is that Boers aren't Jews and Armenians.

Armenians,Greeks,Assyrians,Bulgarians demand recognition of genocides committed by the Turks.

[Joe McCarthy]

Armenians,Greeks,Assyrians,Bulgarians demand recognition of genocides committed by the Turks.

And they demand that completely uninvolved foreign governments jeoparidize their relations with Turkey to do so. They are unwanted pests.

[HungAryan]

And they demand that completely uninvolved foreign governments jeoparidize their relations with Turkey to do so. They are unwanted pests.

So, you want to be friends with those Turkish dogs?
Such defender of White Christian European Civilization you are... NOT! :rolleyes:
Showing your true colours, eh?

[Nairi]

That's because Boers - unlike Jews - don't own half of the world's wealth, and don't have those super-powerful lobbies in Europe and America :rolleyes:
That's the difference.

Besides, Brits never deny what happened to Boer women and kids, they never claim it was actually Boers who made concentration camps for British women and kids, Brits don't teach all those lies in their history books to the kids, they don't have monuments devoted to British victims of Boers and so on.Turks do it.

[Joe McCarthy]

So, you want to be friends with those Turkish dogs?
Such defender of White Christian European Civilization you are... NOT! :rolleyes:
Showing your true colours, eh?

Any sane state does not actively cultivate enmity with anyone. Turkey has been an American ally for over 60 years. Why should we suddenly change that because of the Armenian genocide or whatever it actually was? The US had nothing to do with that.

But as you've played this card I will remind you that your Hungarian Protestant forebears were supported by the Ottomans as an anti-Habsburg artifice. That was in the heart of Europe, no less.

[HungAryan]

Any sane state does not actively cultivate enmity with anyone. Turkey has been an American ally for over 60 years. Why should we suddenly change that because of the Armenian genocide or whatever it actually was? The US had nothing to do with that.

The US is supposed to be part of the Western Christian civilization.
Armenia, Bulgaria and Greece are part of that civilization too.
Turks on the other hand are Muslims and Middle Eastern.

Do I need to say more?

[Artaxat]

but the American have a black and muslim president :confused:

but for the sake of presidency:

"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life." Barack Hussein Obama

[TheBorrebyViking]

but the American have a black and ZIONIST president :confused:

[Joe McCarthy]

The US is supposed to be part of the Western Christian civilization.
Armenia, Bulgaria and Greece are part of that civilization too.
Turks on the other hand are Muslims and Middle Eastern.

Do I need to say more?

I thank you for your cardboard simplification of foreign policy realities.

[HungAryan]

I thank you for your cardboard simplification of foreign policy realities.

Your arrogance disgusts me almost as much as your idiotic political views and your pro-Zionist stance.

[Artaxat]

Any sane state does not actively cultivate enmity with anyone. Turkey has been an American ally for over 60 years. Why should we suddenly change that because of the Armenian genocide or whatever it actually was? The US had nothing to do with that.

But as you've played this card I will remind you that your Hungarian Protestant forebears were supported by the Ottomans as an anti-Habsburg artifice. That was in the heart of Europe, no less.

I wonder why then you went to Afghanistan and Iraq, to introduce democracy? you also have nothing to do with that...there were no Afghans or Iraqis in 911 incident...

your logic makes no sense

[HungAryan]

Turkey should be destroyed and be divided between Greece and Armenia.
Who's with me?
Oh, and Jerusalem should be given back to those whom it rightfully belongs: to the Christians (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37617).

[Artaxat]

Turkey should be destroyed and be divided between Greece and Armenia.
Who's with me?
Oh, and Jerusalem should be given back to those whom it rightfully belongs: to the Christians (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37617).

The moment America stops supporting Turkey, it will be a matter of days till it falls into pieces.

I like the idea of splitting it back to Greece and Armenia (ideal), but the reality on the ground is different. Turks should be pushed back somewhere in central Anatolia ... their role is to produce food for the rest of Europe :D

[Unurautare]

That's probably part of it. France doesn't want Turkey in the EU.

France wants EU supremacy. Turkey in the near future will have almost double France's population and would make it clearly the most important country in the EU around the year 2050.

[Sturmgewehr]

The moment America stops supporting Turkey, it will be a matter of days till it falls into pieces.

I like the idea of splitting it back to Greece and Armenia (ideal), but the reality on the ground is different. Turks should be pushed back somewhere in central Anatolia ... their role is to produce food for the rest of Europe :D

http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/1272348532_original-lol.gif?w=238

Not that I am a big Turk fan but your statement is fundamentally retarded.

If you only knew what you talking about you wouldn't dare to put ur fingers on the keyboard in the first place, I guess Geo-Politics and Economy is not ur strongest side.

[safrax]

guess since Erdogan threatens France "Turkey" hardly has any change to become a member of the EU.:thumbs

[Rron]

edit

[Leliana]

Oh my dear god, I can't believe what I have to read! There are actually people who support the Turkish side in their detestable denial of genocide on Christian Armenians? What kind of 'Europeans' are you? You are nothing else than betrayers! :mad: I spit out before your shoes and turn away in condemnation.

The Ottoman Empire was the largest threat to Europe for lots of centuries! Like a vicious behemoth it swallowed European lands, European people and European cultures and created underlings for the Islamic-Turkish force! Brutal savageness against all opposers were installed in the occupied lands. The Armenians had to suffer like no one else and even though they aren't Europeans to me they deserve sympathy and support in their struggle against Turkish falsification of history.


That's probably part of it. France doesn't want Turkey in the EU.
Which accountable mind would want the Turkey in the EU? :confused: And why we have Turks in the board, for heaven's sake!? :(

[HungAryan]

Leliana said everything right.
No one could have said better.

[Artaxat]

http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/1272348532_original-lol.gif?w=238

Not that I am a big Turk fan but your statement is fundamentally retarded.

If you only knew what you talking about you wouldn't dare to put ur fingers on the keyboard in the first place, I guess Geo-Politics and Economy is not ur strongest side.

and what is your strong points?

[Sturmgewehr]

and what is your strong points?

None of ur business.

I just wanted to say before u make a claim you should at least argument it with facts, evidences, in one word show us why is it like that, don't just come here and give your own baseless wishful thinking.



Leliana said everything right.
No one could have said better.

She didn't say much, she didn't even make much sense.

[Artaxat]

None of ur business.

I just wanted to say before u make a claim you should at least argument it with facts, evidences, in one word show us why is it like that, don't just come here and give your own baseless wishful thinking.


why should I give facts? when you engage in respectful debate, then I can furnish facts.

And what is the problem with posting my wishful thinking? does it violate forum rules?

Are you a moderator that I am unaware of?

[TheBorrebyViking]

Oh my dear god, I can't believe what I have to read! There are actually people who support the Turkish side in their detestable denial of genocide on Christian Armenians? What kind of 'Europeans' are you? You are nothing else than betrayers! :mad: I spit out before your shoes and turn away in condemnation.

The Ottoman Empire was the largest threat to Europe for lots of centuries! Like a vicious behemoth it swallowed European lands, European people and European cultures and created underlings for the Islamic-Turkish force! Brutal savageness against all opposers were installed in the occupied lands. The Armenians had to suffer like no one else and even though they aren't Europeans to me they deserve sympathy and support in their struggle against Turkish falsification of history.


Which accountable mind would want the Turkey in the EU? :confused: And why we have Turks in the board, for heaven's sake!? :(

The EU is shit, but Turkey is NOT IN EUROPE. Non-Europeans countries should stay out of the EU.

[HungAryan]

The EU is shit, but Turkey is NOT IN EUROPE. Non-Europeans countries should stay out of the EU.

The EU shouldn't even exist in the first place.

[Sturmgewehr]

why should I give facts?

because that is how shit works, that is how a debate works otherwise it is just usual bar talk and nothing more, plus what you said is not just usual bar talk it goes beyond that cuz bar talks make more sense, what you said is outrageous and illogical, I don't think u used ur head when u said it.


when you engage in respectful debate, then I can furnish facts.

I am engaging in a respectful debate, I didn't disrespect you, I just think your argument is retarded, I never said you are retarded, to be honest everyone makes retarded claims from time to time out of ignorance, I make them sometimes so don't get so sensitive about it.


And what is the problem with posting my wishful thinking?

There is no problem with it.

Who said there is.

and what is the problem with me trying to refute ur silly claims ?? is there a problem with trying to refute someone's ridiculous claims ???

I don't think there is and keep in mind when u make ridiculous claims u will be ridiculed.


does it violate forum rules?

No it doesn't.


Are you a moderator that I am unaware of?

No I am not.

[Adrian]

Don't underestimate power of Turkey. They are going to be key factor in EU-Asia relations...and their military capacities are terrific!...+ briliant relations with USA!

Turks are going to change their policies. Day by day thay look less interested to be part of EU.

[Artaxat]

what you said is outrageous and illogical, I don't think u used ur head when u said it.

Let me handle which part of my body I use whan I say things.

Can you be more precise which part of my statement is outrageous, and which is illogical?

I reiterate my statement The moment America stops supporting Turkey, it will be a matter of days till it falls into pieces.


Please keep in mind, "days" is a jokatively exaggerated term to indicate a relatively short period of time.

[TheBorrebyViking]

Don't underestimate power of Turkey. They are going to be key factor in EU-Asia relations...and their military capacities are terrific!...+ briliant relations with USA!

Turks are going to change their policies. Day by day thay look less interested to be part of EU.

Key factor in being Non-European scum!

[Leliana]

Don't underestimate power of Turkey. Thay are going to be key factor in EU-Asia relations...and thair military capacities are terrific!...+ briliant relations with USA!
And who cares? :rolleyes2: They were no Europeans, they are no Europeans and they will never be Europeans. And they are backward anterior-Asian Muslims with a bad character, Erdogan shows it in an exemplary way every week. That you like the Turks as an Albanian is no wonder, the Turks have messed with the mind of your people for centuries, you aren't to taken accountable. You Albanians and most Bosnians were underlings of the Ottoman Empire for too long!

[Sturmgewehr]

Let me handle which part of my body I use whan I say things.

Can you be more precise which part of my statement is outrageous, and which is illogical?

I reiterate my statement The moment America stops supporting Turkey, it will be a matter of days till it falls into pieces.


Please keep in mind, "days" is a jokatively exaggerated term to indicate a relatively short period of time.

I already did when I quoted u in my initial post on this thread.

I don't care if u reiterate your statement, still you don't make sense.

Turkey won't fall out into pieces, there is more chances that The Whole Eastern Europe ( minus Russia ) falls into pieces than Turkey doing so.

What do you know about Turkey, their economy, GDP, Standard, Production, infrastructure, military, agriculture etc etc... ???

I would wildly guess you know nothing cuz if u did you wouldn't talk like that or like this:



I like the idea of splitting it back to Greece and Armenia (ideal), but the reality on the ground is different. Turks should be pushed back somewhere in central Anatolia ... their role is to produce food for the rest of Europe :D

Which implies your wishful thinking.

Now present any facts why would Turkey collapse if Americans stop supporting them.

Let's see.

[Adrian]

Key factor in being Non-European scum!

Europian or not...you can't deny what i just said?

[Sturmgewehr]

And who cares? :rolleyes2: They were no Europeans, they are no Europeans and they will never be Europeans. And they are backward anterior-Asian Muslims with a bad character, Erdogan shows it in an exemplary way every week. That you like the Turks as an Albanian is no wonder, the Turks have messed with the mind of your people for centuries, you aren't to taken accountable. You Albanians and most Bosnians were underlings of the Ottoman Empire for too long!

How so ????

What makes u think that ?

[Rron]

And who cares? :rolleyes2: They were no Europeans, they are no Europeans and they will never be Europeans. And they are backward anterior-Asian Muslims with a bad character, Erdogan shows it in an exemplary way every week.
Where he said that turks are Europeans and they will be Europeans, EU does not have concept being European or not, this is just another misapprehension of geo-political and economical policies of countries.



That you like the Turks as an Albanian is no wonder, the Turks have messed with the mind of your people for centuries, you aren't to taken accountable. You Albanians and most Bosnians were underlings of the Ottoman Empire for too long.
If you say so!!

[Adrian]

And who cares? :rolleyes2: They were no Europeans, they are no Europeans and they will never be Europeans. And they are backward anterior-Asian Muslims with a bad character, Erdogan shows it in an exemplary way every week. That you like the Turks as an Albanian is no wonder, the Turks have messed with the mind of your people for centuries, you aren't to taken accountable. You Albanians and most Bosnians were underlings of the Ottoman Empire for too long!

I hate turks more than you can imagine, and I know the fact that turks can't be something what they don't really are (europeans)....but it's not the point.

Point is that you have te stop talking BS like Turkey have to be seperated between Armenians and Greeks etc...

We are talking about one of the most powerful force of NATO organisation!

[TheBorrebyViking]

Europian or not...you can't deny what i just said?

Turkey will fall, just like any empire does. They also won't play in many instances of European relations.

[Drawing-slim]

Ironic that some of Joe's biggest supporters are Albanian and Turkish Muslims.Coments like this feed only close minded religious lunatics and induces some other ignorant minds to pick a team, wich prevents free thinking and fun discussions in the forum.
Not that Lunatics aren't fun, but we learn nothing from them usually:D

Also you might find ironic that alot of albanians liked hitler or didn't hate hitler that much, (would be the correct term) but at the same time albania did not turn in a single jew to the nazis.
Infact, documented, the number of jews before and after the war was
11 times higher in albania.
So much for "muslims" that allied with hitler, saved more
Jews then anyone! what to make of this?!

I would blame it only on our free thinking that is enbeded in us, to do whats moraly right.
Because germans saved us from being cleased by orthodox serbian and greek twisted ahenda and also we went against nazis and saved those innocent civilian jews.

And i personally care less if arab lunatics hate us for it or the wich they do or orthodox christian terrorist brainwashed monsters hate us for it.

[Artaxat]

Turkey won't fall out into pieces, there is more chances that The Whole Eastern Europe ( minus Russia ) falls into pieces than Turkey doing so.

What do you know about Turkey, their economy, GDP, Standard, Production, infrastructure, military, agriculture etc etc... ???

Now present any facts why would Turkey collapse if Americans stop supporting them.


Please, my friend.

My post had two components
Part 1 was an opinion
The moment America stops supporting Turkey, it will be a matter of days till it falls into pieces


Part 2 was wishful thinking
I like the idea of splitting it back to Greece and Armenia (ideal), but the reality on the ground is different. Turks should be pushed back somewhere in central Anatolia ... their role is to produce food for the rest of Europe

I will not furnish any facts. But since you find the statement absolutely outrageous and illogical , I expect that you furnish the facts why Turkey is not prone to break into pieces in case US stops supporting them.

Please be my guest. I am not sure what kind of stimulants you are on, but no need to jump with primitve insults (like labelling statements as retard, requesting people not posting here, and deciding who should throw their hands on keyboards) please stop this islamist militant attitude and engage in calm civilized debate

[Adrian]

Turkey will fall, just like any empire does. They also won't play in many instances of European relations.

Are we talking about video-games or what?

Turkey is not empire!

p.s. Illyrian out!

[TheBorrebyViking]

Are we talking about video-games or what?

Turkey is not empire!

Turkey wishes to become an empire. You know it, I know it, we all know it. It's still going to fall, even all states fall.

[Sturmgewehr]

Please, my friend.

My post had two components
Part 1 was an opinion
The moment America stops supporting Turkey, it will be a matter of days till it falls into pieces


Part 2 was wishful thinking
I like the idea of splitting it back to Greece and Armenia (ideal), but the reality on the ground is different. Turks should be pushed back somewhere in central Anatolia ... their role is to produce food for the rest of Europe

I will not furnish any facts. But since you find the statement absolutely outrageous and illogical , I expect that you furnish the facts why Turkey is not prone to break into pieces in case US stops supporting them.

Please be my guest. I am not sure what kind of stimulants you are on, but no need to jump with primitve insults (like labelling statements as retard, requesting people not posting here, and deciding who should throw their hands on keyboards) please stop this islamist militant attitude and engage in calm civilized debate

I never insulted u.

Where did u see me insulting you, quote my personal attack please.

I labeled your statement as retarded and yes it is retarded but that is not a personal attack and I never called u retarded, it would be wrong if I did so, I also never requested that you shouldn't post here, I don't know where did u pull this off.

I am not gonna furnish any facts to you and I have nothing to prove to you, I would rather let u drawn in your own ignorance.

Islamist Militant ??? Are you Serious?? Since when did u start reading minds? or maybe u have a crystal ball which can do magic and shit like that??

Please refrain from your biased wishful thinking and stick to the discussion.

I am in no way obliged to convince u on anything or even less to present u facts why Turkey won't fall out.

You are the one who made the premise and the claim, I am the one denying it or saying NO.

The one who makes the claim is the one that should be presenting facts to back up his claim.

Don't quote me anymore unless you come with something more reliable and logical that will lead into a normal discussion.

[Joe McCarthy]

Turkey is a dangerous state. It will be a more dangerous state if it is no longer under the restraining influence of the United States. The only way that a change in relations with Turkey and Armenia would be of benefit is as part of a broader US-Russia and even US-Iran rapproachement. That's unlikely to occur because of the leaders in Moscow and Tehran.

As for France, this is just the latest example of a Western government spreading its cheeks for a non-Western minority pressure group.

[Bloodraven]

Your arrogance disgusts me almost as much as your idiotic political views and your pro-Zionist stance.

I want to know how the "Zionists" affected your life in any meaningful way that you despise them that much. I'm curious.

[TheBorrebyViking]

I want to know how the "Zionists" affected your life in any meaningful way that you despise them much. I'm curious.

Multicultural Europe.

[Bloodraven]

Multicultural Europe.

And it's related to Zionism how...?

[Drawing-slim]

Eh..

[Artaxat]

I just wanted to say before u make a claim you should at least argument it with facts, evidences, in one word show us why is it like that, don't just come here and give your own baseless wishful thinking.

http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/1272348532_original-lol.gif?w=238

Not that I am a big Turk fan but your statement is fundamentally retarded.


If you only knew what you talking about you wouldn't dare to put ur fingers on the keyboard in the first place, I guess Geo-Politics and Economy is not ur strongest side.

1-Again, don't advise us who should come here and what should we speak, truth is, people are diverse in their intelligence, not everyone has a top IQ, nevertheless, all opinions should be respected.

2-I love Jack, I did not fly over the cuckoo's nest

3-saying your statement is retarded is same as saying you are a retard. Me and my statements are one entity

4- for your info, I have a Phd in human geography, so I can decide on which keyboard to throw my hand

5- I said stop the "islamic militant attitude"...and I did not say you are an Islamic militant

6- If you will not furnish any facts, then your accusations are only applicable to your statements when you claim that Turkey is invincible and non destroyable (this is the kind of propaganda the Turks sell to their own people - sheeple)

7- I would rather let u drawn in your own ignorance. (you will need to wait for much longer)

8- there is nothing more to discuss

[Joe McCarthy]

I want to know how the "Zionists" affected your life in any meaningful way that you despise them that much. I'm curious.

Neo-Nazis see anything other than obsessive anti-Israel lunacy as 'Zionism'. It's ludicrous. I'd be regarded as 'anti-Israel' and certainly 'anti-Semitic' by most Jews.

[TheBorrebyViking]

And it's related to Zionism how...?

........Not even going to go into it with such a daft person. Let me sum it up, Zionists controlled the power and media that made multiculti in Europe.

[Padre Organtino]

Multicultural Europe.

It's mostly secular liberal Jews who support multi-culty.

[Bloodraven]

........Not even going to go into it with such a daft person. Let me sum it up, Zionists controlled the power and media that made multiculti in Europe.

You don't know much about the history or purpose of Zionism, do you?

[Bloodraven]

It's mostly secular liberal Jews who support multi-culty.

This. Multi-Culti can't be compatible with Zionism in any way.

[Sturmgewehr]

1-Again, don't advise us who should come here and what should we speak, truth is, people are diverse in their intelligence, not everyone has a top IQ, nevertheless, all opinions should be respected.

I didn't advise u not to come here at all, I said don't come here with Biased wishful thinking which u r not even willing to back up and there is a difference between:

don't just come here and give your own baseless wishful thinking

and

DON'T COME HERE CUZ U R STUPID.

by saying DON"T JUST COME HERE with illogical arguments means don't come here with them, come with something more reliable and it is in no way a restriction I am trying to impose on you, yes it is an advice and it is a smart one, something u should really appreciate.


2-I love Jack, I did not fly over the cuckoo's nest

Good.


3-saying your statement is retarded is same as saying you are a retard. Me and my statements are one entity

No it is not and u and ur statement are not the same entity, you are not made up of one stupid statement or whatever the fuck u mean by that.

What u just said is again illogical.

it is a logical fallacy.

it is same as saying:

Your Car is garbage and then u go on assuming that you are garbage or another analogy is if u bake a cake and I say your cake is shit and u go on assuming u r shit as well just because you feel insecure about stuff like that.

A stupid statement doesn't mean the person is stupid, he just made a stupid statement out of not knowing.


4- for your info, I have a Phd in human geography, so I can decide on which keyboard to throw my hand

You are just appealing to authority this means nothing when we talking about your silly claim.


5- I said stop the "islamic militant attitude"...and I did not say you are an Islamic militant

You have a PhD and u can't make a correct statement.

My attitude is in no way Islamic, there is nothing that will make anyone think my attitude is Islamic, I never made an Islamic claim, my attitude could be aggressive or rebellious but just because it is like that it is not Islamic, plus what the fuck do you mean by Islamic Attitude when u say it.

What is Islamic Attitude ???? I think it is a bunch of shit.

Islamic Attitude could be if I came here and tried to refute your claims by Qur'anic Verses and Hadiths or Tasfirs from well known Islamic Scholars but obviously I never did that I was just talking from my point of view and there is nothing Islamic about it.

Something to be Islamic has to relate to Islam.


6- If you will not furnish any facts, then your accusations are only applicable to your statements when you claim that Turkey is invincible and non destroyable (this is the kind of propaganda the Turks sell to their own people - sheeple)

I won't furnish any facts to you cuz I am just Negating your position and I need Facts by ur side in order to refute them, till now u have only made a silly claim which could even be refuted by a 4th grader and i did that now you are left to make more serious claims backed up with arguments, evidence, statistics and so on.

I never claimed Turkey is invincible, I think you just pulled it out of ur ass.


7- I would rather let u drawn in your own ignorance. (you will need to wait for much longer)

whatever.


8- there is nothing more to discuss

Indeed.

[Artaxat]

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pot-smoking-baby.jpg

[Sturmgewehr]

HERP DERP IMAGES

1st Image is some ugly rebellious Wahabi or Salafi Muslim.

So what ??? Only Muslims are rebellious, Rebellion is not something exclusively associated with MUSLIMS, rebellion is a normal human behavior observable in every kind of culture, tradition, nation and so on.

In order my attitude to be Islamic I must have been inspired by something Islamic or Anti-Islamic which is not the case here, here I was inspird by ur silly claim.

Second Image is Laughing at a silly claim, I didn't know that was an Islamic Attitude.

Rebellion + Laughing = Islamic Terrorist.

I don't see how all this adds up, it is as stupid as the initial statement I quoted u.

Makes no sense AT ALL.

Ok I promise this is my last one here.

I am out.

[Drawing-slim]

http://www.fakesteve.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Angry-Muslim-Man-2.jpeg

+

http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/1272348532_original-lol.gif?w=238

=
http://www.humanevents.com/images/islm_cartoon_7.jpg


http://www.freespirit.com/files/IMAGE/COVER/LARGE/Bye-Bye_Time.gifFor a guy that brags to have a phd you're a sad joke, a total embarrisment.
You keep posting the same picture of jack as if that suddenly makes you automatically clever or funny:rolleyes: what a unoriginal sore loser.
and using the same method as 15 year old trolls posting pictures of pakis in a unrelated argument makes you like that anoying kid we all new during childhood, that all he knew what to say in the end: I win, I win, I win!!
Trying desperately to fool his pathetic self.

[Rron]

I am trying to find his point with these muslim images which he posted but i cant , maybe there is some relations with his Phd degree in human geography, who know.

[Sturmgewehr]

Apparently Artaxat is trolling and joking in a topic which has already turned out to be a troll thread, I don't think he is serious about what he said at all, I mean it is obvious.

Still I would like to discuss this matter with him and I still want to see why he thinks Turkey would collapse without America supporting them, if that is what he seriously thinks.

[Artaxat]

guys, chillax, I was just trying to explain what an islamic militant attitude means, cause Sturmgewehr did not get it.

Rebellious spirit + psychotic character (Jack nicholson) = agressive attitude (insults and fucking etc..) :D

why do you take things personally, I did not even add text to it.

We are brothers and sisters, ok?

and yes, I still think Turkey's time expired, without US backing, will be thrown into history's dustbin AND broken apart.

[Artaxat]

You keep posting the same picture of jack as if that suddenly makes you automatically clever or funny:rolleyes:

dearest, Sturmgewehr posted Jack's photo, I like the guy, so I reposted it, what's your problem in it?

why are you attacking me dude? I neither want to be funny nor smart, deal with it...stop attacking please

[Sturmgewehr]

and yes, I still think Turkey's time expired, without US backing, will be thrown into history's dustbin.

That is still far from TURKEY WILL COLLAPSE or FALL APART.

And I don't think that is the case even if US stops supporting them.

Turkey's current economic and geopolitical position shouldn't be associated entirely with America's help.

Turkey has it's own very stable Economy and Politics in Comparison to Eastern European Countries ( minus Russia ).

It is more likely that Romania, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Bulgaria and all of these countries fall apart than Turkey doing so.

[Artaxat]

That is still far from TURKEY WILL COLLAPSE or FALL APART.

And I don't think that is the case even if US stops supporting them.

Turkey's current economic and geopolitical position shouldn't be associated entirely with America's help.

Turkey has it's own very stable Economy and Politics in Comparison to Eastern European Countries ( minus Russia ).

It is more likely that Romania, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Bulgaria and all of this countries fall apart than Turkey doing so.

So what? Soviet Union also was a wonderful and strong economy. We saw how it ended

[Sturmgewehr]

So what? Soviet Union also was a wonderful and strong economy. We saw how it ended

No it wasn't.

This is now my field and I know how good Centralized Economies were, economies like USSR and Yugoslavia.

It is a bad analogy and Comparison.

USSR was a centralized economy and modern Turkey's Economy is 100% different from what USSR's economic and market model was.

There is no comparison to that.

There is not even a single similarity between Turkey and USSR and comparing Turkey to ex USSR is like comparing Oragnes to Apples.

there is no discussion here at all.

[Artaxat]

No it wasn't.

This is now my field and I know how good Centralized Economies were, economies like USSR and Yugoslavia.

It is a bad analogy and Comparison.

USSR was a centralized economy and modern Turkey's Economy is 100% different from what USSR's economic and market model was.

There is no comparison to that.

There is not even a single similarity between Turkey and USSR and comparing Turkey to ex USSR is like comparing Oragnes to Apples.

there is no discussion here at all.

Jesus, what I was saying is that a strong economy does not say much about a nation's longevity. Soviet Union was a centralized but a STRONG economy.

Even free market economies are questioned in our days, take Europe or US for example.

[Sturmgewehr]

Jesus, what I was saying is that a strong economy does not say much about a nation's longevity. Soviet Union was a centralized but a STRONG economy.

Even free market economies are questioned in our days, take Europe or US for example.

Soviet Union was not a Strong Economy, u need to just look back at history and how shit happened and u will see what their economy was based on, if your economy is based on sucking other countries dry and if that is your definition of economy without any Long Term Economical Models then I don't know what to say.

USSR had a shitty economy, u can't say a guy who lives by stealing stuff from others has a stable economic condition while a guy who works hard saves and has a lot of resources and knows how to manage resources are at the same level.

Yes free market economies are questioned but there is a strong base why are they in danger, we know what could be the reason of their fall out whereas in the case with Turkey there is not even a single thing that would make me think Turkey will fall out.

Your only argument is the US argument and u still haven't provided any proof for that and how the US withdrawal will make Turkey fall out.

I think if US pulls out and breaks their good relations with Turkey they will be the ones to lose not Turkey, US has more to lose from breaking up with an ally like Turkey than Turkey has to lose from this situation.

I am still waiting to see those proofs.

[Artaxat]

Soviet Union was not a Strong Economy, u need to just look back at history and how shit happened and u will see what their economy was based on, if your economy is based on sucking other countries dry and if that is your definition of economy without any Long Term Economical Models then I don't know what to say.

USSR had a shitty economy, u can't say a guy who lives by stealing stuff from others has a stable economic condition while a guy who works hard saves and has a lot of resources and knows how to manage resources are at the same level.

I don't want to debate about different economic systems,
But I don't see free market economy any different when it comes to sucking other countries dry.



Yes free market economies are questioned but there is a strong base why are they in danger, we know what could be the reason of their fall out whereas in the case with Turkey there is not even a single thing that would make me think Turkey will fall out.

Your only argument is the US argument and u still haven't provided any proof for that and how the US withdrawal will make Turkey fall out.

I think if US pulls out and breaks their good relations with Turkey they will be the ones to lose not Turkey, US has more to lose from breaking up with an ally like Turkey than Turkey has to lose from this situation.

I am still waiting to see those proofs.

I was mistaken, Turkey is very powerful and stable country :)
my sincere apologies

[Sturmgewehr]

I don't want to debate about different economic systems,
But I don't see free market economy any different when it comes to sucking other countries dry.

Not all do that, every country's economy is dependent to another country's economy and that is what economy is based on.

Just because some Free Market economies suck other economies dry it doesn't mean all free market economies do the same.

Who is ur country sucking dry? who is Germany Sucking dry?

Germany's Economy and hundreds of other free market economies are not in any way based on sucking other countries dry, Turkey is included here.


I was mistaken, Turkey is very powerful and stable country :)


Indeed, at least compared to East European countries and MENA countries.


my sincere apologies

no need for that, and apology not accepted since no one got hurt here and this apology is unnecessary.

[Artaxat]

you're right mate, I never saw it from that angle.

You see, if you said so from the beginning, we would've saved much time.

no need for verbal assaults. I am in Apricity to learn.

Thank you. :thumb001:

[Stars Down To Earth]

Indeed, at least compared to East European countries and MENA countries.
Depends on which East European countries, really. The Czech Republic, for example, is definitely richer and more stable than Turkey. On the other hand, Moldova is poorer. I agree that MENA countries are inferior to Turkey, but that's no surprise, since all of those places are chaotic and poor unless they're sitting on European-developed oil reserves.

And no, Turkey isn't on the same level as Western Europe either. Otherwise, Turkish immigrants wouldn't be swarming like rats into Germany.

[Sturmgewehr]

Depends on which East European countries, really. The Czech Republic, for example, is definitely richer and more stable than Turkey. On the other hand, Moldova is poorer. I agree that MENA countries are inferior to Turkey, but that's no surprise, since all of those places are chaotic and poor unless they're sitting on European-developed oil reserves.

And no, Turkey isn't on the same level as Western Europe either. Otherwise, Turkish immigrants wouldn't be swarming like rats into Germany.

Hmmmm, True about Czech Republic.

I wasn't thinking of Czech Republic at all and in some occasions I listed the countries I was talking about.

Apparently Eastern Europe ( minus Russia and Czech Republic ).

Not just East Europe also some West European countries.

Portugal, Spain, what are these countries better than Turkey and how is their potential compared to Turkey.

Now when I think about it.

Czech Republic is in Central Europe.

I don't know about ur last paragraph, like Poland is some important Factor or whatever even Czech that u mentioned, Czech doesn't have the potential of Turkey.

The fact that Turks are swarming around Germany doesn't show much cuz those emigrants are there for a long time, it was a long time when they migrated.

Polish people are swarming around in England and Germany so what? will u put them in the same bag with Somalia.

Doesn't show much really.

[Artaxat]

Turkish hackers avenge France's ‘genocide bill’

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X76cRWtQCkE/TvirroxQAjI/AAAAAAAAEKg/iRgPP4oKXCc/s1600/turkishhakers.jpg

http://www.france24.com/en/20111227-turkish-hackers-avenge-genocide-bill-with-cyber-attacks

[TheBorrebyViking]

This. Multi-Culti can't be compatible with Zionism in any way.

It is when the Zionists push it on us. Dived and concur.

[Leliana]

The French should answer like the Cosacks did on the letter of Sultan Mehmed of the Ottoman Empire. ;) His letter was:


As the Sultan; son of Muhammad; brother of the Sun and Moon; grandson and viceroy of God; ruler of the kingdoms of Macedonia, Babylon, Jerusalem, Upper and Lower Egypt; emperor of emperors; sovereign of sovereigns; extraordinary knight, never defeated; steadfast guardian of the tomb of Jesus Christ; trustee chosen by God himself; the hope and comfort of Muslims; confounder and great defender of Christians—I command you, the Zaporozhian Cossacks, to submit to me voluntarily and without any resistance, and to desist from troubling me with your attacks.

The Christian Cosacks answered:


Thou art a turkish imp, the damned devil's brother and friend, and a secretary to Lucifer himself. What the devil kind of knight art thou that cannot slay a hedgehog with your naked ass? The devil shits, and your army eats. Thou son of a bitch wilt not ever make subjects of Christian sons; we have no fear of your army, by land and by sea we will battle with thee, fuck thy mother.

Thou art the Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fucker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, Armenian pig, Podolian villain, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, a fool before our God, a grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig's snout, mare's arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw thine own mother!

So the Zaporozhians declare, you lowlife. Thou wilt not even be herding Christian pigs. Now we shall conclude, for we don't know the date and don't have a calendar; the moon's in the sky, the year in the book, the day's the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our ass!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Repin_saporoher_kosaken.jpg/550px-Repin_saporoher_kosaken.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks

[Joe McCarthy]

The French should answer like the Cosacks did on the letter of Sultan Mehmed of the Ottoman Empire. ;) His letter was:



The Christian Cosacks answered:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Repin_saporoher_kosaken.jpg/550px-Repin_saporoher_kosaken.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks

Agreed. But historically the French have not been the Cossacks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance)
By the same token the French should do the same to Armenians. Western governments must stop pandering to minority grievance lobbies which insist on making their issues our issues.

[AussieScott]

Turkey will not fall apart due to the nationalism and discipline of Islam, but what they have a massed, particularly the energy and water assets has put a very large target on there back. Turkey will look to the middle East and further to Asia for support in future.

Can you hear the drum beat getting louder Muslims? I can.

The old alliances are drawing up closer again, through ye auld networks. ;)

[Nairi]

Turkey will not fall apart due to the nationalism and discipline of Islam, but what they have a massed, particularly the energy and water assets has put a very large target on there back. Turkey will look to the middle East and further to Asia for support in future.

Can you hear the drum beat getting louder Muslims? I can.

The old alliances are drawing up closer again, through ye auld networks. ;)

We haven't forgotten and we will never forget ...

Remarkable Australians forgotten with "forgotten genocide"

fr-8gVbytCk

[Turkey]

Turks are the mongrelised scum of the earth.

[Artaxat]

Turkey will not fall apart due to the nationalism and discipline of Islam, but what they have a massed, particularly the energy and water assets has put a very large target on there back. Turkey will look to the middle East and further to Asia for support in future.

Can you hear the drum beat getting louder Muslims? I can.

The old alliances are drawing up closer again, through ye auld networks. ;)

If Islam lacks one thing, that is discipline. Islam does a great favor to draw those countries a few centuries backward.

Regional population increase will only signal trouble for Turkey while it competes on water resources with Syria and Iraq.

While last year Turkey and Syria signed some trade agreemens and visa free travel between the two countries, this year they are confronted with an unstable border and a falling regime (which shows their short sightedness and that they are not in the know)

Turks have been in super self aggrandizing mode in the last few years, hence Europe brought them to their knees. The Nabucco pipeline also has been dropped recently and replaced by Trans Anatolia.

Let's look South and Eastwards at Turkey's borders, Syria (trouble), north Iraq (kurdistan, trouble), Iran openly threatened Turkey
http://news.yahoo.com/iran-threatens-hit-turkey-us-israel-attack-153655802.html
Since the flotilla incident Israel-Turkish relations are going thru a turbulent episode.

Turkey can look East, hence it joins the league of backward nations, or looks West and hopes to join the civilized countries. But it will never become a full EU member, only an economic (food exporter) and strategic partner.

Plus, I doubt that Turkey's 15% Kurdish population share their pan Turkic thoughts. It seems plans for an expanded Kursdistan on Turkish territories are not so unrealistic, this will be a proxy state sitting straight on Iran's border, Israel already this year openly spoke of supporting PKK.

That's why I reiterate, without US backing, Turkey can be happy to hold on for a few months.

This is a simple list of problems.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/12/22/turkey_the_land_of_zero_problems_has_an_awful_lot_ of_problems

I forgot the greek-cypriot issue and Mediterranean Gasfields dispute between Turkey-Cyprus-Israel
http://debka.com/article/21598/

Turkey's might and stability are overly exaggerated.

[AussieScott]

If Islam lacks one thing, that is discipline. Islam does a great favor to draw those countries a few centuries backward.

Regional population increase will only signal trouble for Turkey while it competes on water resources with Syria and Iraq.

While last year Turkey and Syria signed some trade agreemens and visa free travel between the two countries, this year they are confronted with an unstable border and a falling regime (which shows their short sightedness and that they are not in the know)

Turks have been in super self aggrandizing mode in the last few years, hence Europe brought them to their knees. The Nabucco pipeline also has been dropped recently and replaced by Trans Anatolia.

Let's look South and Eastwards at Turkey's borders, Syria (trouble), north Iraq (kurdistan, trouble), Iran openly threatened Turkey
http://news.yahoo.com/iran-threatens-hit-turkey-us-israel-attack-153655802.html
Since the flotilla incident Israel-Turkish relations are going thru a turbulent episode.

Turkey can look East, hence it joins the league of backward nations, or looks West and hopes to join the civilized countries. But it will never become a full EU member, only an economic (food exporter) and strategic partner.

Plus, I doubt that Turkey's 15% Kurdish population share their pan Turkic thoughts. It seems plans for an expanded Kursdistan on Turkish territories are not so unrealistic, this will be a proxy state sitting straight on Iran's border, Israel already this year openly spoke of supporting PKK.

That's why I reiterate, without US backing, Turkey can be happy to hold on for a few months.

This is a simple list of problems.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/12/22/turkey_the_land_of_zero_problems_has_an_awful_lot_ of_problems

I forgot the greek-cypriot issue and Mediterranean Gasfields dispute between Turkey-Cyprus-Israel
http://debka.com/article/21598/

Turkey's might and stability are overly exaggerated.

Great post, my comment was more a generalisation of Islam as a state unifier for there families, via the mosques. So the growing slums in Turkey stay ordered.

If any thing Turkey will be the lion with no roar just like WW2, they will remain neutral, rather than be torn to a total sunders. You never know they may flip to China if the offer comes.

[Artaxat]

If any thing Turkey will be the lion with no roar just like WW2, they will remain neutral, rather than be torn to a total sunders. You never know they may flip to China if the offer comes.

Flipping to china will be Turkey's death sentence.

how will central Asia's (and Iran's) energy resources going to flow?

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Game-Struggle-Central-Kodansha/dp/1568360223
This is a great book that highlights the background of today's power struggle, same principles are valid to this day.

Some good vids are also out there if you feel like watching.

cheers mate

[AussieScott]

Flipping to china will be Turkey's death sentence.

how will central Asia's (and Iran's) energy resources going to flow?

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Game-Struggle-Central-Kodansha/dp/1568360223
This is a great book that highlights the background of today's power struggle, same principles are valid to this day.

Some good vids are also out there if you feel like watching.

cheers mate


If Turkey flips it will be behind closed doors, using the tactics of the smiling Buddha of China and Taqiyya of Islam, to slowly erode the west's monetary and technological military capital. Your right it's very doubtful they would get away with such, this close to the beginning of end game. If Turkey did take this action, it would mean there destruction, without a doubt.

Then again pushing Turkey to China could end up being a double game in itself, played by the west in the first place.

Who knows how it will pan out in the end.

[HungAryan]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38783

So much for Turkish Turanian purity :lol00002:

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38783

So much for Turkish Turanian purity :lol00002:

Are all hungarians as stupid as you? Your people have Turkic influence. This thread is no place for that. What does "turanism" have to do with Armenian so called Genocide? Turanism was invented by confused Hungarians such as yourself, playing stupid shit with "Aryans" and "Mongols" and "steppe nomads" fluctuating between that. No real game. No surprise you're so concerned with "Turanism"

[TheBorrebyViking]

Are all hungarians as stupid as you? Your people have Turkic influence. This thread is no place for that. What does "turanism" have to do with Armenian so called Genocide? Turanism was invented by confused Hungarians such as yourself, playing stupid shit with "Aryans" and "Mongols" and "steppe nomads" fluctuating between that. No real game. No surprise you're so concerned with "Turanism"

What about my people? I laugh at the turks, we aren't mixed at all with turks.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Are all hungarians as stupid as you? Your people have Turkic influence. This thread is no place for that. What does "turanism" have to do with Armenian so called Genocide? Turanism was invented by confused Hungarians such as yourself, playing stupid shit with "Aryans" and "Mongols" and "steppe nomads" fluctuating between that. No real game. No surprise you're so concerned with "Turanism"

You don't even know about the origins of your own nationalist movement. What a confused fella :p


Turanism, or Pan-Turanism, is a political movement for the union of all Turanian peoples. It implies not merely the unity of all Turkic peoples (as in Pan-Turkism), but also the unification of a wider Turanid "race", also known as the controversial Uralo-Altaic "race," believed to include all peoples speaking "Turanian languages".


Turanian Society is a society founded in 1839 by Tatars, aiming at uniting the various Turkic peoples of the Russian Empire.


The political party of the Young Turks, Ittihad ve Teraki (the Turkish Committee of Union and Progress), espoused the notion of Turanism, a mythic glorification of Turkish ethnic identity, and was devoted to restoring the Ottoman Empire's shattered national pride.[6]

Turanism forms an important aspect of the ideology of the Turkish Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), whose members are informally known as Grey Wolves. Grey Wolf (the mother wolf Asena) was the main symbol of the ancient Turks.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

You don't even know about the origins of your own nationalist movement. What a confused fella :p

You are misinformed Uralized krautslovakian imbecile:


Hungarian Turanism (Hungarian: Turanizmus) is a Hungarian nationalist ideology which stresses the alleged origins of the Hungarian people in the steppes of Central Asia ("Turan") and the affinity of the Hungarians with Asian peoples such as the Turks. The idea of the necessity of "Turanian brotherhood/collaboration" was borrowed from the "Slavic brotherhood/collaboration" idea of Panslavism.[1] It gained wide currency on the Hungarian political right in the years between the two world wars and became an element in Hungarian fascist ideolo


he leader of the Hungarian fascist Arrow Cross Party, Ferenc Szálasi, believed in the existence of a "Turanian-Hungarian" race (which included Jesus Christ). :D:D:D:D The idea was a key part of his ideology of "Hungarism".[5] The right-wing Jobbik party and its president Gábor Vona are uncompromising supporters of Turanism and Pan-Turkism (The ideology of Jobbik considers Hungarians as a Turk nation.)[6]


. Initially, it concentrated on geography rather than race but more radical Turanists soon identified "Turan" with the whole of Asia and even proclaimed kinship between the Hungarians and the Japanese and Koreans

Turkish nationalism has little to do with Turanism, you... on the other hand...

Hungarians are the most confused people in Europe. You're krautslovakians with Romanian and Gypsy elements that truly think they're alike to both Turks, ancient Hebrews and Koreans/Japanese (!!)

[Joe McCarthy]

The Hungarians, alone in Europe, also have a disturbing adoration for Attila the Hun, an Asiatic murderer that surpassed even the Mongols in his anti-European savagery. No surprise that his renown increased during the fascist era.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

The Hungarians, alone in Europe, also have a disturbing adoration for Atilla the Hun, an Asiatic murderer that surpassed even the Mongols in his anti-European savagery. No surprise that his renown increased during the fascist era.

Hungary's capital Budapest is of Oghur Turkic origin and means "Place of Buda". Buda was Attila's brother :) Now let's wait the crazy hungarians rant about how Huns were all blond haired East Baltics.

[Padre Organtino]

The Hungarians, alone in Europe, also have a disturbing adoration for Atilla the Hun, an Asiatic murderer that surpassed even the Mongols in his anti-European savagery. No surprise that his renown increased during the fascist era.

I guess you can find a hero in every nation who's deeds are so to say "questionable" from the modern pan-European viewpoint. Plus all this "Turanism" Hyngarians had is nothing more but a romantic nationalistic fantasy like some Russians claiming to be "Eurasians".

[Ushtari]

And who cares? :rolleyes2: They were no Europeans, they are no Europeans and they will never be Europeans. And they are backward anterior-Asian Muslims with a bad character, Erdogan shows it in an exemplary way every week. That you like the Turks as an Albanian is no wonder, the Turks have messed with the mind of your people for centuries, you aren't to taken accountable. You Albanians and most Bosnians were underlings of the Ottoman Empire for too long!
I agree

[Sagitta Hungarica]

You are misinformed Uralized krautslovakian imbecile:







Turkish nationalism has little to do with Turanism, you... on the other hand...

Hungarians are the most confused people in Europe. You're krautslovakians with Romanian and Gypsy elements that truly think they're alike to both Turks, ancient Hebrews and Koreans/Japanese (!!)

Hungarian Turanism was influenced by Turkish Turanism. In Hungary there existed several lobby groups trying to push forwards their own political ideology, the Turanists were one of them. It wasn't at all a nationally widespread movement (except when the Arrow Cross Party was in rule for a small time at the end of WWII).

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Hungarian Turanism was influenced by Turkish Turanism. In Hungary there existed several lobby groups trying to push forwards their own political ideology, the Turanists were one of them. It wasn't at all a nationally widespread movement (except when the Arrow Cross Party was in rule for a small time at the end of WWII).

So is in Turkey, pan-Turanist retards, Ottomanists, Anatolists like me, multi-kultis, and finally Wahabi inspired Islamists who are a minority.

[Joe McCarthy]

I guess you can find a hero in every nation who's deeds are so to say "questionable" from the modern pan-European viewpoint. Plus all this "Turanism" Hyngarians had is nothing more but a romantic nationalistic fantasy like some Russians claiming to be "Eurasians".

You won't find many, if any, that are THAT questionable. The only one even remotely close is Russian Communists admiring Stalin post-USSR.

Germans don't admire Hitler in any significant numbers. Hungarians do admire Attila, and that's despite a highly shaky genealogical lineage.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Hungary's capital Budapest is of Oghur Turkic origin and means "Place of Buda". Buda was Attila's brother :) Now let's wait the crazy hungarians rant about how Huns were all blond haired East Baltics.

You don't know your own history, how do you think you are legitimized to lecture about other people's history?

Budapest doesn't mean "Place of Buda", because it is a composite name of two cities, Buda and Pest which united in the 19th century. Buda or Bleda was one of the nephews of Attila, who was a Hun not a Turk, that is the origin of the first part of the name Budapest, the second part Pest is a word of Slavic origin and means furnace.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

You don't know your own history, how do you think you are legitimized to lecture about other people's history?

I know my own istory, it's you who doesn't know yours (or probably do) but invent lies of "East Baltic races". Like if you didn't know Ugric languages are Finnic tongues with paleo-Siberian substratum and huge panfaces. Seljuks were likely more Caucasoid (near Iran) than the ancestors of original Magyars (West Siberia).



Budapest doesn't mean "Place of Buda", because it is a composite name of two cities, Buda and Pest which united in the 19th century. Buda or Bleda was one of the nephews of Attila, who was a Hun not a Turk, that is the origin of the first part of the name Budapest, the second part Pest is a word of Slavic origin and means furnace.

And Hunnish language was of Turkish origin, uralized krautslovakian genious.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

You won't find many, if any, that are THAT questionable. The only one even remotely close is Russian Communists admiring Stalin post-USSR.

Germans don't admire Hitler in any significant numbers. Hungarians do admire Attila, and that's despite a highly shaky genealogical lineage.

We admire Attila, because our traditions, earliest folk tales, legends eulogize his triumphant campaign in kneeling down the great Roman Empire. Most of "barbarian" Europe including Germanics welcomed him as their liberator from Roman yoke. That's why in his armies you found people from all ethnicities of Europe. Only naive people look at history as white or black.

[HungAryan]

And Hunnish language was of Turkish origin, uralized krautslovakian genious.

Turkish? Anatolian Turkish? :D

No ****ing way.
The Huns had nothing to do with your Anatolian "Turk"ish Mongrels.
If anything, they resembled the real Siberian Turks (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38783), if anything.

But then, that's assuming they were indeed a Turkic people.
But what if they weren't?
Their language is still debated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language

Language family: Uncertain, possibly Turkic

Turkic
Notable studies include that of Pritsak 1982, "The Hunnic Language of the Attila Clan.", who studied the names of known Huns and concluded, "It was not a Turkic language, but one between Turkic and Mongolian, probably closer to the former than the latter. The language had strong ties to Old Bulgarian and to modern Chuvash, but also had some important connections, especially lexical and morphological, to Ottoman and Yakut... The Turkic situation has no validity for Hunnic, which belonged to a separate Altaic group." On the basis of the existing name records, a number of scholars suggest that the Huns spoke a Turkic language of the Oghur branch, which also includes Bulgar, Avar, Khazar and Chuvash languages.[14] English scholar Peter Heather called the Huns "the first group of Turkic, as opposed to Iranian, nomads to have intruded into Europe".[15]:5 Maenchen-Helfen held that many of the tribal names among the Huns were Turkic.[16]
Hunnic has been theoretically considered by most of the historians, with the languages Bulgar, Khazar, Turkic Avar and Chuvash, to be a member of the Oghuric branch of the Turkic language family. All except for Chuvash are extinct and known only from very scant records.

Indo-European
The three known words of, possibly Hunnic (medos, kamos, strava), do not seem to be Turkic, but probably a satem Indo-European language similar to Slavic and Dacian. Maenchen-Helfen suggests that "strava" may have come from an informant who spoke Slavic. Other names were classified as Germanic and Iranian, which also suggests that the Hunnic language could have been Indo-European instead of Turkic. The Gothic language was widely used, and was learned by non-Gothic subjects of the Huns.

Uralic
Attempts have been made to identify the Hunnic language as related to Hungarian. Hungarian legends and histories from medieval times onwards assume close ties with the Huns. The name Hunor is preserved in legends and (with a few Hunnic names, such as Attila) is used as a given name in modern Hungary and in Turkey as Atilla and Onur respectively. Some Hungarian people share the belief that the Székelys, a Hungarian ethnic group living in modern-day Transylvania, are descended from a group of Huns who remained in the Carpathian Basin after 454; this myth was recorded in the medieval Gesta Hungarorum.

Xiongnu
It has been suggested that the Hunnic language was related to that of the Xiongnu, itself of unknown affiliation.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

I know my own istory, it's you who doesn't know yours (or probably do) but invent lies of "East Baltic races". Like if you didn't know Ugric languages are Finnic tongues with paleo-Siberian substratum and huge panfaces. Seljuks were likely more Caucasoid (near Iran) than the ancestors of original Magyars (West Siberia).



And Hunnish language was of Turkish origin, uralized krautslovakian genious.

We don't know anything about how the Hunnic language sounded like. That's only wishful thinking :)

[Joe McCarthy]

We admire Attila, because our traditions, earliest folk tales, legends eulogize his triumphant campaign in kneeling down the great Roman Empire. Most of "barbarian" Europe including Germanics welcomed him as their liberator from Roman yoke. That's why in his armies you found people from all ethnicities of Europe. Only naive people look at history as white or black.

Ultimately it was Germanics who destroyed the Hunnic Empire (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36316) and aligned with the Romans at Chalons. Attila has no equivalent positive reputation in any Germanic country today to what he has in Hungary.

[Joe McCarthy]

Double post.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

We admire Attila, because our traditions, earliest folk tales, legends eulogize his triumphant campaign in kneeling down the great Roman Empire. Most of "barbarian" Europe including Germanics welcomed him as their liberator from Roman yoke. That's why in his armies you found people from all ethnicities of Europe. Only naive people look at history as white or black.

Hungarian history and nationalism is so full of bullshit it's unbelievable. Hungarians didn't even exist when Attila existed. It was a bunch of krautslovaks and a few celts. And you blame us Turks for degenerate myths, you are worse krautslovak. Shame the few Central Asian genes you have didn't prevent your country from being split up in Trianon. You are not getting that back.

[HungAryan]

Hungarian history and nationalism is so full of bullshit it's unbelievable. Hungarians didn't even exist when Attila existed. It was a bunch of krautslovaks and a few celts. And you blame us Turks for degenerate myths, you are worse krautslovak.

O rly?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/East-Hem_500ad.jpg

Look at the map.
I see the Magyars and the Huns as well


Shame the few Central Asian genes you have didn't prevent your country from being split up in Trianon. You are not getting that back.

Wishful thinking, Turkish infidel.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

O rly?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/East-Hem_500ad.jpg

Look at the map.
I see the Magyars and the Huns as well

Magyars were in Kazakhstan when Huns were nearby to Europe.




Wishful thinking, Turkish infidel.

How is it wishful thinking uralized krautslovakian? You got pwned by every neighbor country.

[HungAryan]

Here's another map for anyone in doubt...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Asia_400ad.jpg

[HungAryan]

Magyars were in Kazakhstan when Huns were nearby to Europe.

So what? We still existed during Attila's lifetime, fool. :rolleyes:


How is it wishful thinking uralized krautslovakian? You got pwned by every neighbor country.

So? We will take those lands back...

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Ultimately it was Germanics who destroyed the Hunnic Empire (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36316) and aligned with the Romans at Chalons. Attila has no equivalent positive reputation in any Germanic country today to what he has in Hungary.

Yet the earliest Germanic sagas have Attila as a central figure, and present him very favorably :thumb001:


Some histories and chronicles describe him as a great and noble king, and he plays major roles in three Norse sagas: Atlakviða,[33] Völsungasaga,[34] and Atlamál.


In World War I, Allied propaganda referred to Germans as the "Huns", based on a 1900 speech by Emperor Wilhelm II praising Attila the Hun's military prowess.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

So what? We still existed during Attila's lifetime, fool. :rolleyes:

Yet completely irrelevant. Your nation was not formed. While the Huns were raping and pillaging Krautslovakians the original Magyars were reeinherding in Kazakhstan.




So? We will take those lands back...

Now that's wishful thinking.

[Phil75231]

This one really tears at me. First, let it be known that Turkey has no more business restricting another nation's freedom of speech any more than any other nation does. That's not even an issue here as far as I'm concerned.

The French role is what tears at me. On one hand, I can certainly understand what motivates France (and Germany too) to restrict "genocide hoax" publications: it gives more opportunity for racial and ethnic demogoguery that causes societal instability and persecutions of minorities. The Nazi death camps are the ultimate cumulation of this.

On the other hand, by suppressing free speech in one controversial, unpopular topic, that sets up a situation where unpopular views are swept under the rug, allowed to fester, then eventually explode into rage - whether in the streets or in the voting booth. This is true even in the highly freedom of speech oriented USA (I've certainly seen the latter happen in fact - David Duke's campaign for governor of Louisiana is a perfect example of this). By taking the US model of free speech, the highly unpopular viewpoint may not be restricted, but at least these lenient laws allow opponents equal opportunity to challenge their views.

By allowing the hated wingnuts to speak, you're allowing the side you favor to speak. Besides, recall the saying "Sunlight is the best disinfectant", and I'm sure you see what I'm talking about.

[Joe McCarthy]

Yet the earliest Germanic sagas have Attila as a central figure, and present him very favorably :thumb001:

Yes, that's true, but again, it is in no way equivalent to Hungary. Attila's reputation is not positive in Germanic states today, and he was defeated and destroyed by Germanics, not Magyarized Slavs who now revere the guy due to some dubious genealogical linkage.

And the Allied reaction to the Kaiser's bonehead compliment of the Huns indicates just how unpopular Attila was in Anglo-Saxon England. Kipling, in writing of the Germans during WW1, even said 'the Hun is at the gate!'

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Yet completely irrelevant. Your nation was not formed. While the Huns were raping and pillaging Krautslovakians the original Magyars were reeinherding in Kazakhstan.




Now that's wishful thinking.

Slovaks developed their national identity in the 18th century by Slavic Evangelical (Lutheran) intellectuals from Upper Hungary. Germans also developed as an ethnicity in the Medieval period. How on Earth can you speak of Slovaks and Germans in ancient times, when the Huns ruled large parts of Europe? Obviously you are a history dilettante.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Yes, that's true, but again, it is in no way equivalent to Hungary. Attila's reputation is not positive in Germanic states today, and he was defeated and destroyed by Germanics, not Magyarized Slavs who now revere the guy due to some dubious genealogical linkage.

And the Allied reaction to the Kaiser's bonehead compliment of the Huns indicates just how unpopular Attila was in Anglo-Saxon England. Kipling, in writing of the Germans during WW1, even said 'the Hun is at the gate!'

But was it a coincidence the Anglo-Saxons referred to Germans as Huns? ;)

Attila in the Nuremberg Chronicle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Nuremberg_chronicles_-_Atilla%2C_King_of_the_Huns_%28CXXXVII%29.jpg/474px-Nuremberg_chronicles_-_Atilla%2C_King_of_the_Huns_%28CXXXVII%29.jpg

[Armenian Bishop]

Pan-Turkism is an empirical dream, for more than a few Turks, to unify Turkic-speaking people into a confederation. Azerbaijan is linked to Turkish peoples east of the Caspian Sea, via that body of water. Armenia is an obstacle or roadblock between Turkey and all the other Turkish peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Turkism

www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/440700

www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Pan-Turkism

Europe has been infiltrated by millions of Turks who now work to transform it into a culturally mixed continent. They already work diligently to build permanent sites for Muslim Minarets throughout Europe. They flood Europe with baby-boom Turkish generations that can transform the cultural orientations of Europe.

The absence of diplomatic relations has spared Armenia from any infiltration of Turks. Turkey fears the consequences of the Armenian Genocide very much, and their paranoia about it has been a primary cause for the closing of diplomatic relations with Armenia.

[Armenian Bishop]

[QUOTE=Bozkurt_Karabash;640352]Armenians were not targeted for being Armenians. A segment of their population was targeted for arming themselfs against Ottoman state and cooperating with Russians. There were cases were they opened fire to Turkish civilians.

What is there to do when there is a situation like this? You have to disarm them. They did not want to disarm themselves and live peacefully and those were the consequences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301

www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1197

In Turkey, it's unlawful to publicly proclaim that the Young Turks, and Kemal Ataturk perpetrated genocide against the Armenians (1915-1923). Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code has declared that calling it a genocide perpetrated against Armenians "insults the Turkish Nation." Article 301 has been used to prosecute Turkish scholars, media personalities, public speakers, journalists and editors who have declared that the Armenian Genocide was genocide. The consequences for publicly proclaiming that Turks perpetrated genocide against Armenians include imprisonment, as well as fines.

Article 301 (Turkish Penal Code)

No wonder that Turks deny that the Armenian genocide was genocide: To state that it was genocide is a punishable offense in Turkey, under Article 301. At a young age, Turkish youths are taught to believe that there was no genocide perpetrated against Armenians by Turks -- a lie which doesn't hold water in the face of good scholarship.

Turkey has engaged itself in a vast organized worldwide genocide denial project, for nearly 100 years. The Turkish government has encouraged and carried out the destruction and degradation of Armenian historical sites, including Armenian Churches, Monasteries, Settlements, Cemeteries and Artistic Masterpieces, since the Armenian Genocide. Therefore, the genocide perpetrated against Armenians has continued for nearly a century to our own times, with the destruction of Armenian heritage by Azerbaijan, as well as Turkey.

www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM3.T.ARM.MEN.TO.DIE.HTM

A premeditated, systematic plan for the mass homicide of all Armenian Christians, was planned and executed by The Young Turks, and Kemal Ataturk sought to finish the work of his predecessor, as he worked to build a modern Turkish state. First, the Turks confiscated guns from Armenian civilians, under duress and threat of torture. Then they put to death nearly 300 Armenian Intellectuals and Church Officials. Then they organized the murder of defenseless Armenian men, women and children in countless grizzly ways.

The most common form of homicide being death marches into the Syrian Desert, where Armenian survivors were murdered or raped by Turks and Kurds. Some Armenians resisted, to die like men instead of sheep, and some guns remained, despite the confiscation of guns. Still many other Armenians joined Andranik and other Armenian generals, after they escaped death from the Young Turks.

[Zankapfel]

Which accountable mind would want the Turkey in the EU? :confused: And why we have Turks in the board, for heaven's sake!? :(

Yes, why? :....

[Joe McCarthy]

Yes, why? :....

Well, we've had Mexicans, Venezuelans, and God knows what else. Why draw the line at Turks, especially if they make decent posts?

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Well, we've had Mexicans, Venezuelans, and God knows what else. Why draw the line at Turks, especially if they make decent posts?

:p

[Adrian]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/East-Hem_500ad.jpg

Look at the map.
I see the Magyars and the Huns as well


Magyars were in Kazakhstan when Huns were nearby to Europe.

Kazakhstan :eek:

http://11even.net/wp-content/uploads/borat.jpg

:thumb001:

[Arrow Cross]

I propose more facts and less foam-mouthed hissing.

Nobody claims that Hungarians, especially modern Hungarians, are the direct descendants of Huns. The notion, however, that Huns and Magyars were a related people - culturally, ethnically, or both - is something certainly not born in the modern era of romantic nationalism and history-fabrication in the Carpathian Basin.

Anonymus, a scribe and scholar in the court of Béla III of Hungary, in his account of early Hungarian history, Gesta Hungarorum, already described such a relation in the late XIIth Century, and although it cannot be taken for granted, he certainly had a more recent insight and access to earlier texts and documents lost in the storms of history by now. That Huns were a "brother nation" also lived in the oral tradition of everyday people all along our history in the Carpathian Basin, with Atilla being subject to some very old folk tales and legends.

Now, how the bloody hell did the discussion about demented Western Europeon genocide denial laws arrive at this topic? :rolleyes:

[Armenian Bishop]

I propose more facts and less foam-mouthed hissing.

Nobody claims that Hungarians, especially modern Hungarians, are the direct descendants of Huns. The notion, however, that Huns and Magyars were a related people - culturally, ethnically, or both - is something certainly not born in the modern era of romantic nationalism and history-fabrication in the Carpathian Basin.

Anonymus, a scribe and scholar in the court of Béla III of Hungary, in his account of early Hungarian history, Gesta Hungarorum, already described such a relation in the late XIIth Century, and although it cannot be taken for granted, he certainly had a more recent insight and access to earlier texts and documents lost in the storms of history by now. That Huns were a "brother nation" also lived in the oral tradition of everyday people all along our history in the Carpathian Basin, with Atilla being subject to some very old folk tales and legends.

Now, how the bloody hell did the discussion about demented Western Europeon genocide denial laws arrive at this topic? :rolleyes:

I understand and agree with your basic point about Atilla and Hungarian origins.

As to the idea that the Western European Genocide Denial Law is "demented," I don't agree at all. Turkey has engaged in a worldwide propaganda campaign of genocide denial, for nearly a century. The Armenian Genocide didn't end with the mass homicide of 1915-1923, it continues with Turkish denial of genocide, and with the destruction of Armenian historical landmarks, to erase memories of Armenian Civilization in their ancestral homeland.

Now, I'm prepared to enjoy the ride, with the change of topics, if that's what folks prefer.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

I propose more facts and less foam-mouthed hissing.

Nobody claims that Hungarians, especially modern Hungarians, are the direct descendants of Huns. The notion, however, that Huns and Magyars were a related people - culturally, ethnically, or both - is something certainly not born in the modern era of romantic nationalism and history-fabrication in the Carpathian Basin.

Anonymus, a scribe and scholar in the court of Béla III of Hungary, in his account of early Hungarian history, Gesta Hungarorum, already described such a relation in the late XIIth Century, and although it cannot be taken for granted, he certainly had a more recent insight and access to earlier texts and documents lost in the storms of history by now. That Huns were a "brother nation" also lived in the oral tradition of everyday people all along our history in the Carpathian Basin, with Atilla being subject to some very old folk tales and legends.

Now, how the bloody hell did the discussion about demented Western Europeon genocide denial laws arrive at this topic? :rolleyes:

Take a decent Turkish poster and an alarmed Neo-Con about the imminent Hungarian threat on the status-quo and you get several pages of talk about Hungarian origins :thumb001:

[Supreme American]

Those invading, raping, looting Ottomans have a lot of nerve. Of course, they realize that white people basically have no backbone or will to defend themselves from such horse shit attacks, so why not do it?

[Arrow Cross]

I understand and agree with your basic point about Atilla and Hungarian origins.

As to the idea that the Western European Genocide Denial Law is "demented," I don't agree at all. Turkey has engaged in a worldwide propaganda campaign of genocide denial, for nearly a century. The Armenian Genocide didn't end with the mass homicide of 1915-1923, it continues with Turkish denial of genocide, and with the destruction of Armenian historical landmarks, to erase memories of Armenian Civilization in their ancestral homeland.

Now, I'm prepared to enjoy the ride, with the change of topics, if that's what folks prefer.
Don't get me wrong; I personally don't buy for a moment the rather transparent Turkish claim that they merely put down an armed revolt and I very much sympathize with my fellow Christians in the lands of the old Basileia Rhōmaiōn.

But the fundamental problem lies with explicitly criminalizing such claims by state legislation. As seen in the case of the so-called Holocaust, throwing people, even renowned historians in jail for dissenting opinions gives the vibes of insecurity from the side of the prosecution. Many would think that silencing such views by state-sanctioned force is done due to a certain fear that general consensus on the topic might be endangered.

However, if the so-called Holocaust is a sacred cow, it is an act of integrity on the part of the French state to criminalize the questioning of every other act of "genocide" as well. Helps dilute this hysteria.

[Supreme American]

I propose more facts and less foam-mouthed hissing.

Nobody claims that Hungarians, especially modern Hungarians, are the direct descendants of Huns. The notion, however, that Huns and Magyars were a related people - culturally, ethnically, or both - is something certainly not born in the modern era of romantic nationalism and history-fabrication in the Carpathian Basin.

Beyond me why Hungarians would happily claim relation to a bloodthirsty, drunken, raping, racial alien invader...

[HungAryan]

Beyond me why Hungarians would happily claim relation to a bloodthirsty, drunken, raping, racial alien invader...

Racial alien?
Are you sure?

Roman historians described him as anything but mongoloid.

http://www.heritage-history.com/books/horne/soldiers/zpage059.gif
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Q3k27dA5IUg/TPuYVYY0mFI/AAAAAAAACaY/5e5dITg6U5A/s1600/attila+the+hun.jpg
http://www.deviantart.com/download/39214276/Attila_the_Hun_by_EuroFoxx.jpg


Thus, we do not glorify his murders.
We glorify his achievements, the fact that he built up such a large empire during his not-so-long lifetime.

He might be a murderer and invader in your eyes, but not in ours. In our eyes, he is the leader.

[Flintlocke]

White or not he's the most successful shakedown artist in history.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Beyond me why Hungarians would happily claim relation to a bloodthirsty, drunken, raping, racial alien invader...

Basically most nations mystify drunken, rapist, invading murderer personalities. But eventually such leaders with their countless human deficiencies built states, kingdoms, empires, created and protected an entire nation. It is totally hypocritical to pinpoint Attila as the sole scape goat on all evils of human nature.

[Supreme American]

Racial alien?
Are you sure?

Roman historians described him as anything but mongoloid.

A Greek writer called Priscus actually visited Attila and disagrees with you. He described the freak as having (http://books.google.com/books?id=hrs8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=priscus+attila+swarthy&source=bl&ots=R7hV1EVC6t&sig=50okn7ytErzsf-zSdH-CRR4f35k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aHP7TsKnFoLBtgeS_OHQBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=priscus%20attila%20swarthy&f=false), "a large head, a swarthy complexion, small deep-seated eyes, a flat nose, a few hairs in the place of a beard, broad shoulders and a short square body."

Let's see. Swarthy. Asian feature. Flat nose. Asian feature. Short, square body. Asian. A few hairs instead of a beard, sounds Asian. They don't have much facial or body hair.
So yeah, I'm sure. Why are Europeans glorifying this asshole? How many European villages did him and his pillage and slaughter?

Why on earth is ANYONE of European descent looking up to this guy? Why not look up to the Islamic Barbary Coast pirates that sailed as far north as Ireland, kidnapping entire coastal towns?

Oy vey!

[Supreme American]

Basically most nations mystify drunken, rapist, invading murderer personalities. But eventually such leaders with their countless human deficiencies built states, kingdoms, empires, created and protected an entire nation. It is totally hypocritical to pinpoint Attila as the sole scape goat on all evils of human nature.

If you want to glorify a Mongol mass murderer and rapist, help yourself. I'm just wondering why those who do so are on this forum instead of a Mongol one.

[Joe McCarthy]

Racial alien?
Are you sure?

Roman historians described him as anything but mongoloid.


Which Roman historians? There is no surviving first person account of Attila's appearance. All we have is Jordanes, claiming Priscus who described Attila as short, with a broad chest, large head, small eyes, flat nose, thin beard, and tanned skin, showing evidence of his non-European origin.


He might be a murderer and invader in your eyes, but not in ours.

This is hilarious stuff my Magyar friend. Attila was the mass murderer of mass murderers. Just a sample:

[QUOTE][Attila’s true brutality is demonstrated succeeding a siege or battle when he has free reign to pillage, plunder, sack, and all the rights of a conqueror over the vanquished. This is exemplified no better than during his campaigns in Gaul during 451AD. Edward Gibbon recounts Attila’s exploits in Gaul, destroying over 70 cities, stating “cities…were reduced into heaps of stones and ashes…exposed to the rapacious cruelty of the Huns"[8]. Discontent with solely razing the settlement to the ground, Attila went on to pillage and plunder, and torture and abuse the surviving populace. An anonymous historian puts this rather ineloquently, saying Attila was, “utterly cruel in inflicting torture, greedy in plundering, insolent in abuse”. In fact, so proud of the savagery and cruelness of their ruler’s conquests, the Huns would sing songs dedicated to Attila and his barbaric victories[9]. The fear Attila spread throughout the Roman Empire and entire western world was incredible, and Gibbon illustrates the famous, or, rather, infamous reputation of Attila among the Romans, “the name of Attila was familiar and formidable at Constantinople”. Attila the Hun’s demonic savagery is excellently demonstrated in the post-battle or siege actions he and his army took. The rape, torture, abuse, pillaging, sacking and burning of so many settlements is a testament to the barbarity of this cruel and bloodthirsty warlord. Attila the Hun was, beyond doubt, a demonic savage, bent on destruction and obliteration of those who did not submit to him, such as those foes who succumbed to his forces in Gaul.
/QUOTE]

[Joe McCarthy]

Basically most nations mystify drunken, rapist, invading murderer personalities. But eventually such leaders with their countless human deficiencies built states, kingdoms, empires, created and protected an entire nation.

Yes, and Attila did none of those things on a lasting basis. He was a shortlived madman whose empire died right after he did. He left no positive legacy. Even the Mongols had more positive achievements. He was a highly organized bandit. Nothing more.

[HungAryan]

Yes, and Attila did none of those things on a lasting basis. He was a shortlived madman whose empire died right after he did. He left no positive legacy. Even the Mongols had more positive achievements. He was a highly organized bandit. Nothing more.

Bandits don't build up empires :rolleyes:

[Sagitta Hungarica]

A Greek writer called Priscus actually visited Attila and disagrees with you. He described the freak as having (http://books.google.com/books?id=hrs8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=priscus+attila+swarthy&source=bl&ots=R7hV1EVC6t&sig=50okn7ytErzsf-zSdH-CRR4f35k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aHP7TsKnFoLBtgeS_OHQBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=priscus%20attila%20swarthy&f=false), "a large head, a swarthy complexion, small deep-seated eyes, a flat nose, a few hairs in the place of a beard, broad shoulders and a short square body."

Let's see. Swarthy. Asian feature. Flat nose. Asian feature. Short, square body. Asian. A few hairs instead of a beard, sounds Asian. They don't have much facial or body hair.
So yeah, I'm sure. Why are Europeans glorifying this asshole? How many European villages did him and his pillage and slaughter?

Why on earth is ANYONE of European descent looking up to this guy? Why not look up to the Islamic Barbary Coast pirates that sailed as far north as Ireland, kidnapping entire coastal towns?

Oy vey!

It's easier to generalize rather than make a comparative analysis of a personality.


Upon reading Edward Gibbon’s “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”, one realises that “the politeness as well as hospitality [was reason for praise]…as he respected the laws of hospitality and generously entertained…the minister…who had conspired against his life”. After bribing Attila’s chief guard, Edecon, to assassinate Attila, Emperor Theodosius II’s chief minister, Chrysaphius, was betrayed and his plot revealed. Attila’s reaction, however, was surprising. As opposed to the expected execution of Chrysaphius, he was forgiven by Attila. This generous and forgiving spirit, so uncharacteristic of a "cruel barbarian" such as the likes of Attila, is firm evidence for the existence of a good and just side of the Hunnic King. In his “Getica”, Jordanes describes Attila the Hun as a “lover of war”, but goes on to remedy this by saying “…yet restrained in action, mighty in council, gracious to suppliants and lenient to those received into his protection”.

[Supreme American]

I can't believe the crap on this thread...

[Supreme American]

Bandits don't build up empires :rolleyes:

See Muhammad.

[Supreme American]

White or not he's the most successful shakedown artist in history.

Yeah - he's even better than Al Sharpton!


It's easier to generalize rather than make a comparative analysis of a personality.

Why would I want to analyze the personality of a panfaced invader whose followers slaughtered, looted, and raped who knows how many European villages?

Yeah I generalize: The asshole was a non-white butcher. Question is why do Hungarians cling to him so? If you want to memorialize a butchering asshole, at least pick a white one. How about the Fuhrer?

[HungAryan]

See Muhammad.

Muhammad was a master of propaganda, and also a competent military leader.
Despite being an infidel and a false prophet, he did have some talent in military leadership.

[HungAryan]

How about the Fuhrer?

How dare you to speak ill of the Great Leader? :mad:
Adolf Hitler was the greatest politician who ever lived, and the greatest patriot ever.

[Supreme American]

Muhammad was a master of propaganda, and also a competent military leader.
Despite being an infidel and a false prophet, he did have some talent in military leadership.

Not really. Both the Quran and Hadiths detail Muhammad's "leadership" heavily dependent on threatening his followers with the tortures of hellfire if they abandon the field of battle or refuse to attack. I wouldn't call that having talent.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Yes, and Attila did none of those things on a lasting basis. He was a shortlived madman whose empire died right after he did. He left no positive legacy. Even the Mongols had more positive achievements. He was a highly organized bandit. Nothing more.

It wasn't his fault his sons were so incompetent to maintain the prosperity of the Hunnic Empire. You have to judge him for what he did in his lifetime, and he was one of the greatest military leaders in history undeniably.

http://www.bible-study-lessons.com/images/Attila-the-Hun-1.jpg

[Supreme American]

How dare you to speak ill of the Great Leader? :mad:
Adolf Hitler was the greatest politician who ever lived, and the greatest patriot ever.

A National Socialist that admires a Mongol invader and rapist of European villages. Now I've seen everything. I can die now.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Yeah - he's even better than Al Sharpton!



Why would I want to analyze the personality of a panfaced invader whose followers slaughtered, looted, and raped who knows how many European villages?

Yeah I generalize: The asshole was a non-white butcher. Question is why do Hungarians cling to him so? If you want to memorialize a butchering asshole, at least pick a white one. How about the Fuhrer?

You are missing the point. I and Arrow Cross already gave the explanation a few posts back.

[Supreme American]

It wasn't his fault his sons were so incompetent to maintain the prosperity of the Hunnic Empire. You have to judge him for what he did in his lifetime, and he was one of the greatest military leaders in history undeniably.

http://www.bible-study-lessons.com/images/Attila-the-Hun-1.jpg

I'm sure your slaughtered ancestors agree with your admiration.

[Supreme American]

You are missing the point. I and Arrow Cross already gave the explanation a few posts back.

I'm sorry but I don't see the point of Europeans admiring Atilla.

[Turkey]

7wC2_qK6jao

[Joe McCarthy]

It wasn't his fault his sons were so incompetent to maintain the prosperity of the Hunnic Empire. You have to judge him for what he did in his lifetime, and he was one of the greatest military leaders in history undeniably.

http://www.bible-study-lessons.com/images/Attila-the-Hun-1.jpg

Certainly a great military tactician, but that only made him a more terrifying destroyer. He left no monuments, no cultural achievements - just razed cities and ravaged populations in his bloody wake.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Certainly a great military tactician, but that only made him a more terrifying destroyer. He left no monuments, no cultural achievements - just razed cities and ravaged populations in his bloody wake.

Sometimes a nation needs exactly such a role model: rebellious, dominating, uncivilized, ready to damage the enemy, and being constantly victorious. Of course this type of role model shouldn't be the norm, because I admire educated, intellectual personalities even more, but a nation also needs a strong figure to whom it can look up to, in whom it can take courage and motivation to never bow. Attila for Hungarians is exactly such a figure. I don't believe it is worth it to continue this discussion further on.

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't believe it is worth it to continue this discussion further on.

Yes, if I were you I wouldn't want to have this discussion either. :rolleyes:

[Supreme American]

a nation also needs a strong figure to whom it can look up to, in whom it can take courage and motivation to never bow. Attila for Hungarians is exactly such a figure. I don't believe it is worth it to continue this discussion further on.

This reminds me of the Japanese. Apparently so beaten down to the degree they lost all self-respect after the Americans firebombed them, nuked them, destroyed their empire and made their Emperor kiss their white asses... They fell in love with Americans. "Me ruv roo round eye!"

/facepalm

[Flintlocke]

Turkey threatens France over stance on killing of Armenians by Ottomans

Open thread and you find Attila teh Hun :cool:

[Supreme American]

Turkey threatens France over stance on killing of Armenians by Ottomans

Open thread and you find Attila teh Hun :cool:

Maybe it should be renamed "Asiatic Freaks We Admire Thread."

[Joe McCarthy]

Maybe it should be renamed "Asiatic Freaks We Admire Thread."

Well, we could start discussing Albanian Grand Viziers and see if anyone wants to defend them as national heroes next...

[Sturmgewehr]

Sometimes a nation needs exactly such a role model: rebellious, dominating, uncivilized, ready to damage the enemy, and being constantly victorious. Of course this type of role model shouldn't be the norm, because I admire educated, intellectual personalities even more, but a nation also needs a strong figure to whom it can look up to, in whom it can take courage and motivation to never bow. Attila for Hungarians is exactly such a figure. I don't believe it is worth it to continue this discussion further on.

WHICH ENEMY???

The Europeans themselves ????

Destroying European cities and terrorizing European People?

What Enemy?

You are Talking about a Nation needs such kind of Leader and u r in an European Preservation Board and Atilla did damage Europe.

[Joe McCarthy]

WHICH ENEMY???

The Europeans themselves ????

Destroying European cities and terrorizing European People?

What Enemy?

You are Talking about a Nation needs such kind of Leader and u r in an European Preservation Board and Atilla did damage Europe.

Indeed. The Hungarian fascination with Attila is mindboggling. The relation between the Magyars and Huns is veiled in folklore, at best (though that there is a credible tie of any sort is disturbing), but the Huns killed a great number of the Hungarians' actual Slavic-Germanic ancestors before the Magyars arrived.

[Turkey]

I just hate fucken Turks. Let's get back to Turk bashing:thumb001:

[Arrow Cross]

Indeed. The Hungarian fascination with Attila is mindboggling. The relation between the Magyars and Huns is veiled in folklore, at best (though that there is a credible tie of any sort is disturbing), but the Huns killed a great number of the Hungarians' actual Slavic-Germanic ancestors before the Magyars arrived.
Oh, how absolutely heartbreaking, coming from a guy who suggested his country should nuke China before it is too late, wiping out a billion people to safeguard its interests. Do forgive me for a moment while I grab some tissues.

Moral relativism aside, you know what? Even without Atilla and his legacy, Hungarian horse archers attacked, raided, pillaged, taxed and burned Europe for more than half a century, putting terror in the hearts of Europeans from the Atlantic Coast to Constantinople in a time when Vikings from the north and Arabs from the south did the same thing. It had an awakening effect, it reduced feuding and forced drastic change on the continent, eventually leading to the creation of the Holy Roman Empire.

"Save us, o Lord, from the arrows of the Hungarians". Does that phrase ring a bell? We did what Atilla did, and even today, we are proud of the prowess and power of our ancestors, that they stormed in here and carved a slice from the heart of Europe for themselves, keeping the core of it ever since. We do not apologize, we do not feel the least bit of shame and we refuse to bow our heads down to anyone; experienced by Turk, Austrian and Russian alike.

In the words of Victor Hugo, Hungary is the nation of heroes. You do not understand why we revere "savagery", and nor do you need to understand. But when civilized and compassionate America is falling apart from the inside, overrun by simpler and stronger peoples, when your average, fat and weak-willed White American will be unable to defend his lands, think for a moment and consider where your sophistication got you.

[AussieScott]

But when civilized and compassionate America is falling apart from the inside, overrun by simpler and stronger peoples, when your average, fat and weak-willed White American will be unable to defend his lands, think for a moment and consider where your sophistication got you.

Kill ratio's my friend, some people are stronger willed then others. :thumbs up

Your culture is not the only one with hero worship of what the sophisticated ones call barbaric or savage.

I guess some are better at organised violence then others, for some it's like a natural calling.

[Turkey]

Oh, how absolutely heartbreaking, coming from a guy who suggested his country should nuke China before it is too late, wiping out a billion people to safeguard its interests. Do forgive me for a moment while I grab some tissues.

Moral relativism aside, you know what? Even without Atilla and his legacy, Hungarian horse archers attacked, raided, pillaged, taxed and burned Europe for more than half a century, putting terror in the hearts of Europeans from the Atlantic Coast to Constantinople in a time when Vikings from the north and Arabs from the south did the same thing. It had an awakening effect, it reduced feuding and forced drastic change on the continent, eventually leading to the creation of the Holy Roman Empire.

"Save us, o Lord, from the arrows of the Hungarians". Does that phrase ring a bell? We did what Atilla did, and even today, we are proud of the prowess and power of our ancestors, that they stormed in here and carved a slice from the heart of Europe for themselves, keeping the core of it ever since. We do not apologize, we do not feel the least bit of shame and we refuse to bow our heads down to anyone; experienced by Turk, Austrian and Russian alike.

In the words of Victor Hugo, Hungary is the nation of heroes. You do not understand why we revere "savagery", and nor do you need to understand. But when civilized and compassionate America is falling apart from the inside, overrun by simpler and stronger peoples, when your average, fat and weak-willed White American will be unable to defend his lands, think for a moment and consider where your sophistication got you.

You were probably the people that the Huns wet their dicks and swords on on the way through to Europe.:D

[Joe McCarthy]

Kill ratio's my friend, some people are stronger willed then others. :thumbs up

Your culture is not the only one with hero worship of what the sophisticated ones call barbaric or savage.

I guess some are better at organised violence then others, for some it's like a natural calling.

The Hungarians didn't hold up too well to the onslaught of the Mongols. Such a military defeat has been visited on few people, and certainly not Americans.

And I won't be looking to Batu Khan as a role model as a consequence.

[AussieScott]

The Hungarians didn't hold up too well to the onslaught of the Mongols. Such a military defeat has been visited on few people, and certainly not Americans.

And I won't be looking to Batu Khan as a role model as a consequence.


Better for them to emulate a falsified white pride history, then the nigger ghetto culture that so depicts the civilisation rot in our countries.

[Joe McCarthy]

Better for them to emulate a falsified white pride history, then the nigger ghetto culture that so depicts the civilisation rot in our countries.

Well, even at this stage in our decadence, we don't celebrate nigger mass murderers of white people, do we?

[Vorsord]

Well, even at this stage in our decadence, we don't celebrate nigger mass murderers of white people, do we?

Instead you have Martin Luther King's Day:) He isn't a "nigger mass murderer of white people" but still he is a negro and you guys celebrate him:)

[Turkey]

Is it just me or has a lunacy descended upon all who participate in this thread?

[Joe McCarthy]

Instead you have Martin Luther King's Day:) He isn't a "nigger mass murderer of white people" but still he is a negro and you guys celebrate him:)

Maybe if we give Dessalines a national holiday you'll actually have a point.

[Vorsord]

Maybe if we give Dessalines a national holiday you'll actually have a point.

For me US's Martin Luther King Jr's celebration day is as funny as if instead of King you celebrated abovementioned Dessalines's day

[Joe McCarthy]

For me US's Martin Luther King Jr's celebration day is as funny as if instead of King you celebrated abovementioned Dessalines's day

Well, unlike Dessalines, Michael King wasn't a mass murderer.

[AussieScott]

Well, even at this stage in our decadence, we don't celebrate nigger mass murderers of white people, do we?

I'm sure you'll find academics in universities who do...

When does America celebrate WASP month?

[Joe McCarthy]

When does America celebrate WASP month?

Every month is WASP month. ;)

[Vorsord]

Well, unlike Dessalines, Michael King wasn't a mass murderer.

I am glad that American people have such a consolation:)

[Armenian Bishop]

Every month is WASP month. ;)

Unfortunately, February commemorates Black History Month.

[Artaxat]

of relevance?

Turks and Azeris in gas pipeline deal

AFP - Turkey and Azerbaijan signed on Monday an agreement to build a pipeline to carry 10 billion cubic metres of Azeri gas to European markets starting in 2017, the Anatolia news agency reported.

The deal comes as the EU plans to build the so-called Nabucco pipeline across Turkey to bring in Caspian Sea gas and reduce Europe's dependence on Russia has struggled to sign up suppliers.

The accord on building the $5-billion (3.8-billion-euro) Trans-Anatolia pipeline was signed by Turkey's Energy Minister Taner Yildiz and his Azeri colleague Natik Aliyev in front of the press.

Under the agreement Azerbaijan's state-owned gas company Socar and Turkey's gas company Botas and its oil company TPAO become the first members of the pipeline consortium, which could be opened to foreign companies, Anatolia reported.

The pipeline would also bring in six billion cubic metres of gas for Turkey.

Azerbaijan's huge Caspian Sea gas reserves are seen as crucial to the success of EU plans which envisage the construction of several pipelines to bring gas from the Caspian Sea and the Middle East and reduce European dependence on Russian energy supplies.

Moscow aims to have its rival 20-billion-euro South Stream pipeline running from Russia under the Black Sea to Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary before branching out to Western Europe completed by 2015.

http://www.france24.com/en/20111226-turks-azeris-gas-pipeline-deal

[Artaxat]

I personally do not believe that moral values are a driving force behind political actions. Take the example of American support to Saudis and their fierce opposition to Iran, the latter being more progressive and liberal than the former. The main engine behind political maneouvers are economic and strategic interests, thus I am curious to know what is behind France's latest move towards Turkey?

The Nabucco pipeline is one aspect. One has to consider that the Turkish-Azeri duo already killed Nabucco on October the first. Could the actions of France come as a punishement of the Turks for their decision on killing this highly strategic link?

http://www.news.az/articles/economy/51212

Despite denials, the EU’s flagship pipeline project Nabucco, as it is currently known, aimed at bringing Caspian and Middle East gas to European consumers to reduce EU dependence on Russian gas, has met a humiliating defeat. The coup de grace was delivered recently by the duo BP-SOCAR with Turkey’s blessing.


The end to Nabucco came swiftly, with almost no warning. Until late September, Nabucco was still up and running, and by the 1 October deadline, the consortium had submitted a comprehensive transportation proposal to the Shah Deniz consortium. The ITGI and TAP consortia also submitted their own proposals. The Shah Deniz consortium would evaluate these offers and chose the winning project.

And as late as mid-November, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) had declared its readiness to finance Nabucco once it got under way.

As the Shah Deniz consortium was to begin deliberations, partner BP deftly came up with a totally new alternative: SEEP (South-East Europe Pipeline). BP tabled its proposal just in time for the 1 October deadline.


On october 8 Sarkozy paid a visit to Armenia and threatened Turkey to review its Genocidal past.

And last week came the French parliementary response.

[Joe McCarthy]

I personally do not believe that moral values are a driving force behind political actions. Take the example of American support to Saudis and their fierce opposition to Iran, the latter being more progressive and liberal than the former.

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are very Islamic. The difference is that Iran wants to be an enemy of the US and the KSA doesn't. This plays into another difference between the two in that Iran is revolutionary, whereas the KSA is conservative. Iran arms terrorist groups and wages asymetrical warfare against the US and its allies. The KSA doesn't.

Beyond that failure to support the KSA could lead to its overthrow and an al Qaeda state. Iran on the other hand is already anti-American and the overthrow of its regime can only improve matters.

[Artaxat]

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are very Islamic. The difference is that Iran wants to be an enemy of the US and the KSA doesn't. This plays into another difference between the two in that Iran is revolutionary, whereas the KSA is conservative. Iran arms terrorist groups and wages asymetrical warfare against the US and its allies. The KSA doesn't.

Beyond that failure to support the KSA could lead to its overthrow and an al Qaeda state. Iran on the other hand is already anti-American and the overthrow of its regime can only improve matters.

- Truth is majority of the Iranian people worship US culture and want to befriend Americans.

- regime overthrow would expose them to zionist corporate takeover and exploit their oil and gas resources. Just like what happened to Iraq and Saddam's regime (his death sentence in 2000 when he started selling oil in Euros)

- Most of the 911 hijackeres where Saudi nationals (not Iranian).

- Failure to support the KSA will lead to higher oil prices and a US economic freefall, al Qaeda is just the boogey man to implement US policies in the middle east.

- The al qaeda boogey man has been thoroughy chewed, the new boogy is the Iranian nuke

- I am neither a fan of Iran nor KSA, but we are not in the 80's, good old US propaganda does not pass on sane people who have internet access :D

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Artaxat
Truth is majority of the Iranian people worship US culture and want to befriend Americans.


They don't control Iran. Jihadists do.


regime overthrow would expose them to zionist corporate takeover and exploit their oil and gas resources. Just like what happened to Iraq and Saddam's regime (his death sentence in 2000 when he started selling oil in Euros)


That's quite a yarn you've spun there.


good old US propaganda does not pass on sane people who have internet access

'Sane people' don't typically traffic in unverifiable anti-American geopolitical conspiracism, or at least it's surely not the high mark of sanity to do so.

[Artaxat]

I did not expect such an empty response. I hope next time you put some more effort so we can have mind stimulating discussions.

Have a good one

PS: thanks to good old US republican policies, the middle east (Levant) has been emptied from its Christian population and converted to jihadi wonderland (about whom you now complain)

[Artaxat]

Turkish air raids kill 23 Kurdish villagers

http://www.euronews.net/2011/12/29/turkish-air-raids-kill-23-kurdish-villagers-reports/

[Sagitta Hungarica]

It's incredible how many big mouths bash Hungarians on this thread, forgetting that two times we passed the offer of both the Mongols and Turks to let them cross our country to attack the West. We opposed, put up a fight against them and payed for this heavily, losing our territorial integrity, while we could have witness carelessly how they subjugate one after the other the German states, down to the Italian states, and who knows how further they would've went, if it wasn't for us to hold them up. But exactly these Westerners keep on throwing dirt into our proud nation.

Simply disgusted by this hypocrisy.

[Joe McCarthy]

It's incredible how many big mouths bash Hungarians on this thread, forgetting that two times we passed the offer of both the Mongols and Turks to let them cross our country to attack the West. We opposed, put up a fight against them and payed for this heavily, losing our territorial integrity, while we could have witness carelessly how they subjugate one after the other the German states, down to the Italian states, and who knows how further they would've went, if it wasn't for us to hold them up. But exactly these Westerners keep on throwing dirt into our proud nation.

Simply disgusted by this hypocrisy.

Hungarians deserve to be honored for a number of things. Liking Attila the Hun just isn't one of them.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Hungarians deserve to be honored for a number of things. Liking Attila the Hun just isn't one of them.

Nobody asked any honoring for us feeling pride in Attila, this is our personal matter, but I see many outsiders want to dictate how should we relate to our own traditions, even change them, just to fit into the "Western norm".

We tried enough to absorb the "goods" of the West, and therefore we have a brainwashed nation, idolizing trashy Pop culture, instead of focusing on the spiritual things, and to preserve our customs, traditions. How about not interfering into our own yard anymore. I know for some of the Americans with lust for invading foreign countries and pushing on them their own agenda it is very difficult, but "please" take a break from Hungary.

[Vorsord]

Iran arms terrorist groups and wages asymetrical warfare against the US and its allies. The KSA doesn't.


Wasn't that guy Bin Laden a Saudi Arabian? Technically speaking 9/11 was finansed by Saudi money, as Bin Laden earned his wealth in Saudi Arabia:rolleyes: (actually I believe Bin Laden was a bubble blowed by CIA and 9/11 was an inside job, but I am not discussing that, as it seems my friend that you're totally into US official politic line)

[Gaztelu]

It's sad that irrelevant nonsense involving some Algerians and Armenians that died long ago matters enough to spoil international relations.

[Artaxat]

It's sad that irrelevant nonsense involving some Algerians and Armenians that died long ago matters enough to spoil international relations.

There are two kind of people, some don't give a shit about their ancestors and the injustice they have suffered, and others who highly honor the past and seek justice no matter the circumstances and time period.

I fall in the second category, whereas you in the first.

Can't help you much here.

It's simply a matter of human values, or the lack thereof

[Gaztelu]

There are two kind of people, some don't give a shit about their ancestors and the injustice they have suffered, and others who highly honor the past and seek justice no matter the circumstances and time period.

I fall in the second category, whereas you in the first.

Can't help you much here.

I see you are mad at the fact that the average person doesn't care about some genocide that happened decades ago.

[HungAryan]

I see you are mad at the fact that the average person doesn't care about some genocide that happened decades ago.

The average person is brainwashed and is too ignorant to care about history.

[Artaxat]

I see you are mad at the fact that the average person doesn't care about some genocide that happened decades ago.

who does not get mad at injustice? Only non-humans or evil people.

I do not want anyone to care, but I would like justice to take its course my fellow catholic brother.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/detail/articolo/genocidio-armeno-archivio-segreto-archivo-secreto-secret-archive-armenian-genocide-4385/

The testimonials, explained the prefect of the Secret Archives, Monsignor Sergio Pagano, describe "in detail" the "procedures of torture that the Turks used towards the Armenians". For example, he said, there is evidence of how the soldiers of the Sublime Porte would bet "on the sex of fetuses in the wombs of pregnant women before they quartered them and with the same knife killed the babies".


These episodes, said the Vatican archivist, who "make me ashamed to be a man, and if it were not for faith, I would see only darkness".

These acts were so common that I have heard the same from my great grandmother.

Anyway, I am not mad that you do not care about justice, but at least civilized people and politicians do care, that is comforting

[RoyBatty]

The average person is brainwashed and is too ignorant to care about history.

And too stupid.

France and Turkey are as bad as each other. Let them swing their handbags at one another, who cares. In the end I'm sure a little "deal" will be done between them so that everyone will agree what wonderful lovers of "humanity" they both are and just how committed to global fairness and altruism they both are.

Clownshow. :cool: :thumb001:

[Padre Organtino]

who does not get mad at injustice? Only non-humans or evil people.

I do not want anyone to care, but I would like justice to take its course my fellow catholic brother.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/detail/articolo/genocidio-armeno-archivio-segreto-archivo-secreto-secret-archive-armenian-genocide-4385/

The testimonials, explained the prefect of the Secret Archives, Monsignor Sergio Pagano, describe "in detail" the "procedures of torture that the Turks used towards the Armenians". For example, he said, there is evidence of how the soldiers of the Sublime Porte would bet "on the sex of fetuses in the wombs of pregnant women before they quartered them and with the same knife killed the babies".


These episodes, said the Vatican archivist, who "make me ashamed to be a man, and if it were not for faith, I would see only darkness".

These acts were so common that I have heard the same from my great grandmother.

Anyway, I am not mad that you do not care about justice, but at least civilized nations and politicians do care, that is comforting

You can start fighting injustice by recognizing ethnic cleansing of Circassians by Russian Empire or Genocide of Indians by American settlers. Truth is there exists no universal moral definition of injustice.
That said I'd support recognition of Armenian Genocide by Georgia (unlikely to happen in the nearest future though) but I don't support free speech restrictions.

[RoyBatty]

The testimonials, explained the prefect of the Secret Archives, Monsignor Sergio Pagano, describe "in detail" the "procedures of torture that the Turks used towards the Armenians". For example, he said, there is evidence of how the soldiers of the Sublime Porte would bet "on the sex of fetuses in the wombs of pregnant women before they quartered them and with the same knife killed the babies".



Frogs and Algerian Arabs were playing the same games with one another in Algeria.



These episodes, said the Vatican archivist, who "make me ashamed to be a man, and if it were not for faith, I would see only darkness".


And what has our Vatican friend to say about the rape and plunder of South America to fill the Vatican's coffers? And their secret little man-boy-love-associations?

Most if not all of these "big name" groups are as bad as each other.
It's hilarious how they try to outdo one another in the propaganda / media stakes.

[Artaxat]

You can start fighting injustice by recognizing ethnic cleansing of Circassians by Russian Empire

I do, as a matter of fact, I have Circassian roots, moreover, my family name is exactly Circassian. Which makes the pain worse, my ancestors having suffered one genocide at the hand of the Russians were deported to Turkey, only to suffer another Genocide and get deported to the Syrian desert, from there to Jordan, Palestine,Lebanon...and finally I recently ended up in Europe (fortunately)


or Genocide of Indians by American settlers.

I think this was the worst of all Genocides and I highly condemn it




Truth is there exists no universal moral definition of injustice.

Ok, then screw the justice system, I'm out to rape some kids



That said I'd support recognition of Armenian Genocide by Georgia (unlikely to happen in the nearest future though)

I know, Georgia is economically very dependant on Turkey, it is not in a position to meddle with the G thing



but I don't support free speech restrictions.
Me too, I would have preferred if Germany would have uttered the G word, but ofcourse with a few million Turk residents, it would have unleashed hell on German soil. Fact is, EU for whatever reason wanted to send a message to Turkey, so it resorted to the G word denial punishement (although it did not pass the senate, and I think it will not)

[Vorsord]

It's sad that irrelevant nonsense involving some Algerians and Armenians that died long ago matters enough to spoil international relations.

International relations are spoiled from the very first day they started.

And by the way, in this law's case it's not that French government cares about Armenians, by passing this law France is playing it's own political game which is in my opinion making clear borders between EU and Turkey.
Armenians are not going to benefit from this law, it's French government who will earn all that 45 000 euro fine for every turk that will reject there was a Genocide against Armenians;)

[Raskolnikov]

It would be funny if Germans switched from berating each other for the ARBEIT MACHT FREI to berating their Gastarbeiter for The ARmencide.

[RoyBatty]

My personal opinion about these kinds of laws are that they are WRONG. It's WRONG to "fine Turks" for "denying the Armenian massacre". If they want to and it makes them happy... well... they have to believe what they want to believe. They'll do it anyway.

It's equally WRONG to force people to subscribe to the "Holocaust" and that denial of "the Holocaust" leads to persecution. Again, only OPPRESSIVE TOTALITARIAN REGIMES (whether they are "democracies" or not) enact these kinds of measures and write them into LAW.

These kinds of "laws" are made by criminals in order to suit their personal agendas. It has nothing to do with promoting any kind of "fairness" or "tolerance".

[Vorsord]

My personal opinion about these kinds of laws are that they are WRONG. It's WRONG to "fine Turks" for "denying the Armenian massacre". If they want to and it makes them happy... well... they have to believe what they want to believe. They'll do it anyway.

It's equally WRONG to force people to subscribe to the "Holocaust" and that denial of "the Holocaust" leads to persecution. Again, only OPPRESSIVE TOTALITARIAN REGIMES (whether they are "democracies" or not) enact these kinds of measures and write them into LAW.

These kinds of "laws" are made by criminals in order to suit their personal agendas. It has nothing to do with promoting any kind of "fairness" or "tolerance".

I am totaly agree with you. I as an Armenian have no problem with turks rejecting their crimes, let them reject as long as they want, I am calm about this subject as I know there're thousands of proofs stating the crime of turks, and every sane person if interested can look and make his opinion, as about those who are brainwashed by turkish propaganda, it's their business, anyone must find the Truth for himself.

[Artaxat]

My personal opinion about these kinds of laws are that they are WRONG. It's WRONG to "fine Turks" for "denying the Armenian massacre".

You are pissed off, because if you were in france you'd have to pay 45,000 euros. Listen, it was a Genocide, and I don't care how many "people" will claim otherwise, sooner or later, justice will prevail.

Civilized people will prevail.

Humanity will prevail.

If people like you made the same effort you did to condemn genocidal acts rather than condemning anti-genocidal laws. The world would have been a much better place.

[Gaztelu]

who does not get mad at injustice? Only non-humans or evil people.

I do not want anyone to care, but I would like justice to take its course my fellow catholic brother.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/detail/articolo/genocidio-armeno-archivio-segreto-archivo-secreto-secret-archive-armenian-genocide-4385/

The testimonials, explained the prefect of the Secret Archives, Monsignor Sergio Pagano, describe "in detail" the "procedures of torture that the Turks used towards the Armenians". For example, he said, there is evidence of how the soldiers of the Sublime Porte would bet "on the sex of fetuses in the wombs of pregnant women before they quartered them and with the same knife killed the babies".


These episodes, said the Vatican archivist, who "make me ashamed to be a man, and if it were not for faith, I would see only darkness".

These acts were so common that I have heard the same from my great grandmother.

Anyway, I am not mad that you do not care about justice, but at least civilized people and politicians do care, that is comforting

Justice? Against who? The Ottoman establishment is dead. The soldiers and government officials who were involved in the genocide (and other atrocities) against the Armenian minority are dead. Natural aging and Atatürk indirectly brought justice to those responsible.


International relations are spoiled from the very first day they started.

And by the way, in this law's case it's not that French government cares about Armenians, by passing this law France is playing it's own political game which is in my opinion making clear borders between EU and Turkey.
Armenians are not going to benefit from this law, it's French government who will earn all that 45 000 euro fine for every turk that will reject there was a Genocide against Armenians;)

True. However, passing such laws goes against certain principles that distinguish Western society from the rest of the world. I am sure you know what they are.

[Vorsord]

Justice? Against who? The Ottoman establishment is dead. The soldiers and government officials who were involved in the genocide (and other atrocities) against the Armenian minority are dead. Natural aging and Atatürk indirectly brought justice to those responsible.

They still occupy our land and they still have the wealth stolen from us.

[Artaxat]

Justice? Against who? The Ottoman establishment is dead. The soldiers and government officials who were involved in the genocide (and other atrocities) against the Armenian minority are dead. Natural aging and Atatürk indirectly brought justice to those responsible.


Good, then there is no need to get such reactions. Ottoman establishment is dead, what harm would it do if the Turks recognized their past and admitted the crimes of the Ottomans (who they have nothing to do with) , why continue denying?

either you are arguing for the sake of arguing, or you are really ignorant of the implications. Why are Turks spending millions against Genocide recognition acts?? Tell me..

Why the Turks get so angry when some country recognizes the attrocities commited by the DEAD ottoman establishement?

[Vorsord]

If people like you made the same effort you did to condemn genocidal acts rather than condemning anti-genocidal laws. The world would have been a much better place.

The fact of Armenian genocide is proven, as I said in a previous post by passing this law France doesn't care about Armenians, it's playing it's own game, European states always have used Armenian card to force turks to do this or that, in the case of this law there's one positive thing for Europeans, it's that by this law turkey is being stopped by the gates of the Europe like they were stopped under Vienna. But overall I am against such laws.

[StonyArabia]

I do, as a matter of fact, I have Circassian roots, moreover, my family name is exactly Circassian. Which makes the pain worse, my ancestors having suffered one genocide at the hand of the Russians were deported to Turkey, only to suffer another Genocide and get deported to the Syrian desert, from there to Jordan, Palestine,Lebanon...and finally I recently ended up in Europe (fortunately)


Cool, the Cricassian genocide was the largest in the 19th century. Many of the areas were depopulated and ethnically cleansed. Today Cricassians have never forgotten their dead on the contrary they are continually remembered on May 21, 1864. I have learned about the deportations, massacres and the inhumanity that these people suffered because they are my ancestors. As well I am proud to have Cricassian blood in my veins and constitutes 50% of my ancestral lineage and cultural wise that's what I am. You are write that we should remember the suffering of our ancestors and seek justice, and with this agree. However I disagree with forcing other nations to recognize such as genocide, accept for the perpetrators and it should not be a matter of international relation or use because in someways it's disrespectful to use the suffering of one's ancestors as a political tool.

[RoyBatty]

You are pissed off, because if you were in france you'd have to pay 45,000 euros. Listen, it was a Genocide, and I don't care how many "people" will claim otherwise, sooner or later, justice will prevail.


Wigga you crazy.

I don't find it unbelievable or unusual that Armenians were largely genocided and expelled by Turks (often using Kurds). I just don't see how slapping a fat fine on people who want to believe whatever they want to believe this "helps". It's simply a system that gets abused and applied to all kinds of similar "problems". Who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong? Not an independent and honest arbiter, that's for sure. Therefore it's unworkable and open to abuse and that's what usually happens.



Civilized people will prevail.


Jesus Christ, go hug a plant or something! Might makes right in this world! That's the only universal law. "Civilization" talk is for limpwristed Euromarxists, Liberals and schoolchildren.




Humanity will prevail.


You'll be singing a different tune when the Hell's Angels turn up at your front door.



If people like you made the same effort you did to condemn genocidal acts rather than condemning anti-genocidal laws. The world would have been a much better place.

For god's sake man get a grip on your metrosexual self. People aren't motivated by morality. They are motivated by greed and self-interest. Morality is for suckers. The strong and cunning survive. The weak and foolish go under, they often even cooperate with and work towards their own demise.

[Artaxat]

Cool, the Cricassian genocide was the largest in the 19th century. Many of the areas were depopulated and ethnically cleansed. Today Cricassians have never forgotten their dead on the contrary they are continually remembered on May 21, 1864. I have learned about the deportations, massacres and the inhumanity that these people suffered because they are my ancestors. As well I am proud to have Cricassian blood in my veins and constitutes 50% of my ancestral lineage and cultural wise that's what I am. You are write that we should remember the suffering of our ancestors and seek justice, and with this agree. However I disagree with forcing other nations to recognize such as genocide, accept for the perpetrators and it should not be a matter of international relation or use because in someways it's disrespectful to use the suffering of one's ancestors as a political tool.


I also don't like the idea of lobbying and forcing recognition in other countries. But unfortunately that is how the world is running. I don't care about genocide recognition, but at the same time when world powers arms Turkey to the teeth, and still do arm them, and they carry genocidal policies in plain sight. Either you are dead, or you fght back (which you cannot, since you are not equally armed-supported).

The Circassian also have to lobby and fight for their recognition, if they did so successfully, the Armenian event would not have taken place, if the world stopped and recognized the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust would have not taken place....it seems the Jews had uniqe priviliges among other nations....why?

And I am sure, if we were not sandwhiched between Turkey and Azerbaijan, and if they did not have Pan Turkic agendas, Armenians would have cared the least to pursue genocide recognition. The fact is that diaspora Armenians and those living in Armenia fully disagree on which apprach to follow, The ones living in Armenia would rather prefer to leave it in the past and open borders and normalize relation,what other choice do they have? But what to do with the five million who lost their homeland and are now scattered all over the world? some of those five million integrate and blend into the environment they livein, others hold on to their cause and fight for it till the last drop of blood.

By the way, this is one of the recent exposures I had into Cherkess spiritiual tradition, if you are familiar with Murat Yagan, I highly recommend his books. The author himself is a wonderful person with 100 years of life experience, a living encylopedia!
http://www.kebzeh.org/

[HungAryan]

Just split up Turkey between Greece and Armenia, and we'll all be fine...