View Full Version : Balto-Slavic admixture of Germans
Peterski
10-15-2024, 06:51 PM
Here are estimates of Balto-Slavic admixture in Germans, by each region of Germany and Danzig, according to user Rothaer.
He estimated BS admixture in each region of Germany and Danzig as of May 1939 and also BS admixture in Polish Germans.
I calculated the weighted average for entire Germany and Danzig (+ Polish Germans) and the result is 21% of BS admixture:
https://i.imgur.com/z9tU3CK.png
https://i.imgur.com/z9tU3CK.png
Peterski
10-15-2024, 06:55 PM
We used May 1939 census data for population size of Germany and 1931 Polish census data for population of Polish Germans.
Fabricius
10-21-2024, 10:56 PM
Interesting
Up!
Peterski
10-25-2024, 09:53 PM
I disagree with some of Rothaer's estimates, for example I think that Rgbz. Breslau should be more Slavic than Rgbz. Stettin.
Wolfram Lining
10-29-2024, 01:57 PM
I disagree with some of Rothaer's estimates, for example I think that Rgbz. Breslau should be more Slavic than Rgbz. Stettin.
I disagree with some of these estimates as millions of people fled from the East, also the GDR and those were the more Germanic higher class people.
Peterski
02-07-2025, 02:15 AM
I disagree with some of these estimates as millions of people fled from the East, also the GDR and those were the more Germanic higher class people.
But these are estimates of BS admixture as of May 1939.
rothaer
02-09-2025, 11:52 PM
I disagree with some of Rothaer's estimates, for example I think that Rgbz. Breslau should be more Slavic than Rgbz. Stettin.
The motivation is that I consider the (historically ethnic) Slavic proportion being abt. the same at Breslau and Stettin but the Slavs being notably Celtic-like admixed in Lower Silesia while Pomerania had more genetically pure BS Slavs.
The motivation is that I consider the (historically ethnic) Slavic proportion being abt. the same at Breslau and Stettin but the Slavs being notably Celtic-like admixed in Lower Silesia while Pomerania had more genetically pure BS Slavs.
I think the pattern was different when it comes to early Slavic samples. If there was an admixture of Celts in the Czech Republic, it could have occurred secondarily and probably later.
Below is an analysis of the convergence of only ancient samples after the migration period.
Sunghir distorts the image a bit because it is close but there are no other nearby samples.
https://i.ibb.co/2YvyG4kg/output-70.png (https://ibb.co/0VCcHbGh)
Peterski
02-10-2025, 12:22 AM
The motivation is that I consider the (historically ethnic) Slavic proportion being abt. the same at Breslau and Stettin but the Slavs being notably Celtic-like admixed in Lower Silesia while Pomerania had more genetically pure BS Slavs.
Okay but Rgbz. Breslau and Rgbz Koeslin had some Slavic minorities even in the 1800s, while Rgbz. Stettin and Rgbz. Liegnitz were fully Germanized earlier.
So I think that Rgbz. Liegnitz and Rgbz. Stettin should have similar Slavic contribution, while Rgbz. Breslau and Rgbz. Koeslin should have higher contribution than Liegnitz and Stettin, respectively.
Here is ethnic map of Prussia 1817-23, just note that Slavic minorities in Pomerania and Lower Silesia were mainly in Rgbz. Koeslin and Breslau, respectively:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Ethnic_structure_of_eastern_regions_of_Prussia.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Ethnic_structure_of_eastern_regions_of_Prussia.png
Peterski
02-10-2025, 12:29 AM
the Slavs being notably Celtic-like admixed in Lower Silesia while Pomerania had more genetically pure BS Slavs.
Is this assumption based on the samples from Niemcza (which are the only Lower Silesian samples we have so far)?:
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0122.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.43 %,0.130897,0.132019,0.072407,0.061693,0.045547,0.0 2259,0.011516,0.013384,-0.002659,-0.02442,0.002436,-0.004646,0.015907,0.020231,-0.006786,0.002121,0.002999,-0.003927,0.004651,0.000625,0.002121,0.00371,-0.000123,-0.018316,0.004071
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0124.SG__AD_950__Cov_41.04 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.069767,0.061047,0.0437,0.027 052,0.013396,0.007615,-0.0045,-0.025878,-0.008931,-0.009442,0.008771,0.028488,-0.005157,-0.007425,0.007041,0.000633,0.000628,0.017884,0.000 998,-0.011129,0.008874,0.005784,-0.007903
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %,0.121791,0.132019,0.056945,0.017442,0.033545,0.0 1506,0.00423,0.003,0.005931,0.002005,0.001299,-0.002398,0.008474,0.020506,-0.012079,-0.000265,-0.005476,0.001774,-0.00352,0.002126,-0.017344,0.010634,0.000123,-0.001566,-0.001197
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0127.SG__AD_950__Cov_13.24 %,0.120652,0.119832,0.081835,0.080104,0.058472,0.0 32909,0.00752,0.022153,-0.010431,-0.012028,-0.002273,0.008243,0.006392,0.030415,-0.003393,0.014054,0.009779,0.002027,-0.005656,0.014757,-0.008859,0.001731,-0.011092,0.001084,0.015807
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0132.SG__AD_950__Cov_12.42 %,0.125205,0.120848,0.084098,0.079458,0.041238,0.0 37371,0.00611,0.005538,0.006954,-0.040092,-0.001137,-0.010191,0.004757,0.022295,-0.012079,-0.021612,-0.014081,0.006714,0.013701,0.01113,-0.006489,0.004328,0.012325,-0.015183,0.006826
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0133.SG__AD_950__Cov_8.51% ,0.133173,0.121864,0.080704,0.064277,0.050779,0.04 2949,0.00658,0.015692,-0.012885,-0.023326,-0.007795,-0.003147,-0.000297,0.021744,-0.0095,-0.007425,-0.008866,0.006714,-0.002263,-0.005878,-0.024582,0.005193,0.004314,-0.028317,-0.000958
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0137.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.30 %,0.127482,0.121864,0.07995,0.069768,0.040315,0.02 8168,0.00893,0.012692,-0.01493,-0.018588,0.002273,-0.01139,0.016799,0.018304,-0.0095,0.003315,0.012126,-0.006714,0.013575,-0.001501,0.001872,-0.000124,-0.006039,-0.009519,-0.005149
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0138.SG__AD_950__Cov_10.81 %,0.124067,0.127957,0.075424,0.06137,0.04924,0.050 758,0.018566,0.013384,-0.020861,-0.02934,0.002598,-0.012139,0.010555,0.021469,-0.038409,0.008221,0.014603,-0.003421,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.001996,0.007048,0.018241,-0.012291,0.02862
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0140.SG__AD_950__Cov_25.77 %,0.124067,0.13405,0.03017,0.025194,0.029852,0.000 837,0.00423,0.001846,-0.001432,-0.005285,-0.002598,-0.000899,0.008622,0.017065,-0.017508,-0.003447,0.005998,-0.001394,-0.002891,-0.004127,-0.008111,0.004081,0.010846,0.001325,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0142.SG__AD_950__Cov_16.34 %,0.138864,0.114755,0.076555,0.066215,0.035083,0.0 28168,0.019271,0.013846,-0.005113,-0.012574,-0.003897,-0.001649,0.002081,0.030415,-0.016151,-0.005967,-0.005737,0.010388,-0.020992,-0.000625,0.012603,0.003215,0.010353,-0.000964,-0.005269
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %,0.122929,0.133034,0.048649,0.034238,0.044624,0.0 11992,0.012456,0.004615,0.003068,-0.010205,-0.007307,-0.009591,0,0.010322,-0.005565,0.002121,-0.008996,0.005194,-0.005028,0.003126,0.00025,-0.011871,-0.001849,-0.000482,-0.000599
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %,0.136588,0.127957,0.080704,0.070737,0.0397,0.021 196,0.011516,0.01223,-0.00225,-0.003645,-0.01023,-0.002098,0.013825,0.014588,0.003936,0.008088,0.015 255,0.003294,0.003897,0.014007,0.010606,-0.000989,0.004067,0.000843,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Cov_31.99 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.053174,0.040698,0.029236,0.0 17849,-0.003995,0.013384,0.001841,-0.011299,0.003085,-0.0003,0.01219,0.014588,-0.017915,-0.009149,0.008736,0.000887,0.007668,-0.004002,-0.005241,-0.007048,0.005669,-0.004579,-0.004431
However, Niemcza IIRC was a garrison stronghold where there could be some Czech mercenaries in addition to local Slavs.
Edit:
I guess it is also based on two Upper Silesian samples which are in the G25 datasheet?
Fabricius
02-10-2025, 01:27 AM
Is this assumption based on the samples from Niemcza (which are the only Lower Silesian samples we have so far)?:
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0122.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.43 %,0.130897,0.132019,0.072407,0.061693,0.045547,0.0 2259,0.011516,0.013384,-0.002659,-0.02442,0.002436,-0.004646,0.015907,0.020231,-0.006786,0.002121,0.002999,-0.003927,0.004651,0.000625,0.002121,0.00371,-0.000123,-0.018316,0.004071
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0124.SG__AD_950__Cov_41.04 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.069767,0.061047,0.0437,0.027 052,0.013396,0.007615,-0.0045,-0.025878,-0.008931,-0.009442,0.008771,0.028488,-0.005157,-0.007425,0.007041,0.000633,0.000628,0.017884,0.000 998,-0.011129,0.008874,0.005784,-0.007903
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %,0.121791,0.132019,0.056945,0.017442,0.033545,0.0 1506,0.00423,0.003,0.005931,0.002005,0.001299,-0.002398,0.008474,0.020506,-0.012079,-0.000265,-0.005476,0.001774,-0.00352,0.002126,-0.017344,0.010634,0.000123,-0.001566,-0.001197
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0127.SG__AD_950__Cov_13.24 %,0.120652,0.119832,0.081835,0.080104,0.058472,0.0 32909,0.00752,0.022153,-0.010431,-0.012028,-0.002273,0.008243,0.006392,0.030415,-0.003393,0.014054,0.009779,0.002027,-0.005656,0.014757,-0.008859,0.001731,-0.011092,0.001084,0.015807
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0132.SG__AD_950__Cov_12.42 %,0.125205,0.120848,0.084098,0.079458,0.041238,0.0 37371,0.00611,0.005538,0.006954,-0.040092,-0.001137,-0.010191,0.004757,0.022295,-0.012079,-0.021612,-0.014081,0.006714,0.013701,0.01113,-0.006489,0.004328,0.012325,-0.015183,0.006826
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0133.SG__AD_950__Cov_8.51% ,0.133173,0.121864,0.080704,0.064277,0.050779,0.04 2949,0.00658,0.015692,-0.012885,-0.023326,-0.007795,-0.003147,-0.000297,0.021744,-0.0095,-0.007425,-0.008866,0.006714,-0.002263,-0.005878,-0.024582,0.005193,0.004314,-0.028317,-0.000958
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0137.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.30 %,0.127482,0.121864,0.07995,0.069768,0.040315,0.02 8168,0.00893,0.012692,-0.01493,-0.018588,0.002273,-0.01139,0.016799,0.018304,-0.0095,0.003315,0.012126,-0.006714,0.013575,-0.001501,0.001872,-0.000124,-0.006039,-0.009519,-0.005149
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0138.SG__AD_950__Cov_10.81 %,0.124067,0.127957,0.075424,0.06137,0.04924,0.050 758,0.018566,0.013384,-0.020861,-0.02934,0.002598,-0.012139,0.010555,0.021469,-0.038409,0.008221,0.014603,-0.003421,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.001996,0.007048,0.018241,-0.012291,0.02862
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0140.SG__AD_950__Cov_25.77 %,0.124067,0.13405,0.03017,0.025194,0.029852,0.000 837,0.00423,0.001846,-0.001432,-0.005285,-0.002598,-0.000899,0.008622,0.017065,-0.017508,-0.003447,0.005998,-0.001394,-0.002891,-0.004127,-0.008111,0.004081,0.010846,0.001325,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0142.SG__AD_950__Cov_16.34 %,0.138864,0.114755,0.076555,0.066215,0.035083,0.0 28168,0.019271,0.013846,-0.005113,-0.012574,-0.003897,-0.001649,0.002081,0.030415,-0.016151,-0.005967,-0.005737,0.010388,-0.020992,-0.000625,0.012603,0.003215,0.010353,-0.000964,-0.005269
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %,0.122929,0.133034,0.048649,0.034238,0.044624,0.0 11992,0.012456,0.004615,0.003068,-0.010205,-0.007307,-0.009591,0,0.010322,-0.005565,0.002121,-0.008996,0.005194,-0.005028,0.003126,0.00025,-0.011871,-0.001849,-0.000482,-0.000599
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %,0.136588,0.127957,0.080704,0.070737,0.0397,0.021 196,0.011516,0.01223,-0.00225,-0.003645,-0.01023,-0.002098,0.013825,0.014588,0.003936,0.008088,0.015 255,0.003294,0.003897,0.014007,0.010606,-0.000989,0.004067,0.000843,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Cov_31.99 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.053174,0.040698,0.029236,0.0 17849,-0.003995,0.013384,0.001841,-0.011299,0.003085,-0.0003,0.01219,0.014588,-0.017915,-0.009149,0.008736,0.000887,0.007668,-0.004002,-0.005241,-0.007048,0.005669,-0.004579,-0.004431
However, Niemcza IIRC was a garrison stronghold where there could be some Czech mercenaries in addition to local Slavs.
Edit:
I guess it is also based on two Upper Silesian samples which are in the G25 datasheet?
Target: Fabricius_g25_scaled
Distance: 2.1309% / 0.02130864 | ADC: 0.5x
78.4 Iberian
19.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG
2.0 Sub-Saharan_African
Target: Fabricius_g25_scaled
Distance: 1.0244% / 0.01024410 | ADC: 0.25x
67.6 Iberian
28.4 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG
4.0 Sub-Saharan_African
Target: Fabricius_g25_scaled
Distance: 0.5356% / 0.00535636
60.8 Iberian
28.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG
5.6 Sub-Saharan_African
5.0 Maghrebi
Distance to: Fabricius_g25_scaled
0.04085268 Iberian:Spanish_Canarias
0.05160769 Iberian:Azores
0.05221397 Iberian:Spanish_Extremadura
0.05260855 Iberian:Portuguese
0.05416308 Iberian:Spanish_Galicia
0.07857688 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %
0.08059864 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0140.SG__AD_950__Cov_25.77 %
0.08352003 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %
0.08860027 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Cov_31.99 %
0.11542388 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0124.SG__AD_950__Cov_41.04 %
0.11750551 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0122.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.43 %
0.12229056 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %
0.12503736 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0137.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.30 %
0.12981185 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0142.SG__AD_950__Cov_16.34 %
0.13201688 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0127.SG__AD_950__Cov_13.24 %
0.13345379 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0133.SG__AD_950__Cov_8.51%
0.13953488 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0132.SG__AD_950__Cov_12.42 %
0.14074959 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0138.SG__AD_950__Cov_10.81 %
0.16587539 Maghrebi:Tunisian
0.17435169 Maghrebi:Algerian
0.19511188 Maghrebi:Moroccan
0.69723920 Sub-Saharan_African:Cameroon
0.70350528 Sub-Saharan_African:Yoruba
0.70563299 Sub-Saharan_African:Esan_Nigeria
rothaer
02-11-2025, 08:35 AM
I think the pattern was different when it comes to early Slavic samples. If there was an admixture of Celts in the Czech Republic, it could have occurred secondarily and probably later.
Below is an analysis of the convergence of only ancient samples after the migration period.
Sunghir distorts the image a bit because it is close but there are no other nearby samples.
https://i.ibb.co/2YvyG4kg/output-70.png (https://ibb.co/0VCcHbGh)
It’s a reasonable assumption and display. As you can see what is depicted a notable Celtic-like admixture is also shown in Lower Silesia.
rothaer
02-11-2025, 08:40 AM
Okay but Rgbz. Breslau and Rgbz Koeslin had some Slavic minorities even in the 1800s, while Rgbz. Stettin and Rgbz. Liegnitz were fully Germanized earlier.
So I think that Rgbz. Liegnitz and Rgbz. Stettin should have similar Slavic contribution, while Rgbz. Breslau and Rgbz. Koeslin should have higher contribution than Liegnitz and Stettin, respectively.
Here is ethnic map of Prussia 1817-23, just note that Slavic minorities in Pomerania and Lower Silesia were mainly in Rgbz. Koeslin and Breslau, respectively:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Ethnic_structure_of_eastern_regions_of_Prussia.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Ethnic_structure_of_eastern_regions_of_Prussia.png
Rgbz. Liegnitz area exhibits the even earliest Germanisation in the whole of Silesia, well in the 12th century. It having a fringe strip of Poles close to the Wielkopolska border doesn’t mean much. You would also not derive from the fact of the Wendland in Hannover that Hannover is more Slavic that Rgbz. Stettin.
rothaer
02-11-2025, 08:46 AM
Is this assumption based on the samples from Niemcza (which are the only Lower Silesian samples we have so far)?:
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0122.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.43 %,0.130897,0.132019,0.072407,0.061693,0.045547,0.0 2259,0.011516,0.013384,-0.002659,-0.02442,0.002436,-0.004646,0.015907,0.020231,-0.006786,0.002121,0.002999,-0.003927,0.004651,0.000625,0.002121,0.00371,-0.000123,-0.018316,0.004071
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0124.SG__AD_950__Cov_41.04 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.069767,0.061047,0.0437,0.027 052,0.013396,0.007615,-0.0045,-0.025878,-0.008931,-0.009442,0.008771,0.028488,-0.005157,-0.007425,0.007041,0.000633,0.000628,0.017884,0.000 998,-0.011129,0.008874,0.005784,-0.007903
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %,0.121791,0.132019,0.056945,0.017442,0.033545,0.0 1506,0.00423,0.003,0.005931,0.002005,0.001299,-0.002398,0.008474,0.020506,-0.012079,-0.000265,-0.005476,0.001774,-0.00352,0.002126,-0.017344,0.010634,0.000123,-0.001566,-0.001197
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0127.SG__AD_950__Cov_13.24 %,0.120652,0.119832,0.081835,0.080104,0.058472,0.0 32909,0.00752,0.022153,-0.010431,-0.012028,-0.002273,0.008243,0.006392,0.030415,-0.003393,0.014054,0.009779,0.002027,-0.005656,0.014757,-0.008859,0.001731,-0.011092,0.001084,0.015807
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0132.SG__AD_950__Cov_12.42 %,0.125205,0.120848,0.084098,0.079458,0.041238,0.0 37371,0.00611,0.005538,0.006954,-0.040092,-0.001137,-0.010191,0.004757,0.022295,-0.012079,-0.021612,-0.014081,0.006714,0.013701,0.01113,-0.006489,0.004328,0.012325,-0.015183,0.006826
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0133.SG__AD_950__Cov_8.51% ,0.133173,0.121864,0.080704,0.064277,0.050779,0.04 2949,0.00658,0.015692,-0.012885,-0.023326,-0.007795,-0.003147,-0.000297,0.021744,-0.0095,-0.007425,-0.008866,0.006714,-0.002263,-0.005878,-0.024582,0.005193,0.004314,-0.028317,-0.000958
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0137.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.30 %,0.127482,0.121864,0.07995,0.069768,0.040315,0.02 8168,0.00893,0.012692,-0.01493,-0.018588,0.002273,-0.01139,0.016799,0.018304,-0.0095,0.003315,0.012126,-0.006714,0.013575,-0.001501,0.001872,-0.000124,-0.006039,-0.009519,-0.005149
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0138.SG__AD_950__Cov_10.81 %,0.124067,0.127957,0.075424,0.06137,0.04924,0.050 758,0.018566,0.013384,-0.020861,-0.02934,0.002598,-0.012139,0.010555,0.021469,-0.038409,0.008221,0.014603,-0.003421,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.001996,0.007048,0.018241,-0.012291,0.02862
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0140.SG__AD_950__Cov_25.77 %,0.124067,0.13405,0.03017,0.025194,0.029852,0.000 837,0.00423,0.001846,-0.001432,-0.005285,-0.002598,-0.000899,0.008622,0.017065,-0.017508,-0.003447,0.005998,-0.001394,-0.002891,-0.004127,-0.008111,0.004081,0.010846,0.001325,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0142.SG__AD_950__Cov_16.34 %,0.138864,0.114755,0.076555,0.066215,0.035083,0.0 28168,0.019271,0.013846,-0.005113,-0.012574,-0.003897,-0.001649,0.002081,0.030415,-0.016151,-0.005967,-0.005737,0.010388,-0.020992,-0.000625,0.012603,0.003215,0.010353,-0.000964,-0.005269
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %,0.122929,0.133034,0.048649,0.034238,0.044624,0.0 11992,0.012456,0.004615,0.003068,-0.010205,-0.007307,-0.009591,0,0.010322,-0.005565,0.002121,-0.008996,0.005194,-0.005028,0.003126,0.00025,-0.011871,-0.001849,-0.000482,-0.000599
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %,0.136588,0.127957,0.080704,0.070737,0.0397,0.021 196,0.011516,0.01223,-0.00225,-0.003645,-0.01023,-0.002098,0.013825,0.014588,0.003936,0.008088,0.015 255,0.003294,0.003897,0.014007,0.010606,-0.000989,0.004067,0.000843,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Cov_31.99 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.053174,0.040698,0.029236,0.0 17849,-0.003995,0.013384,0.001841,-0.011299,0.003085,-0.0003,0.01219,0.014588,-0.017915,-0.009149,0.008736,0.000887,0.007668,-0.004002,-0.005241,-0.007048,0.005669,-0.004579,-0.004431
However, Niemcza IIRC was a garrison stronghold where there could be some Czech mercenaries in addition to local Slavs.
Edit:
I guess it is also based on two Upper Silesian samples which are in the G25 datasheet?
My assumption is based on modern German samples with known ancestry, a number of them half this half that, so it’s a more complicated equation. However, in this context Lower Silesians fits in to resembling compositions of Sudeten Germans, Upper Saxons and Thuringians.
But please, this is no claim on a scientific level, but a consistent impression that I’ve got over years of getting to know various German DNA results.
Beowulf
02-11-2025, 09:09 AM
Tried it for my maternal grandma who is 1/4 Polish :)
Target: Cristina_Scaled
Distance: 0.0107% / 0.01068284
71.3 Iberian_Penninsula
28.7 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG
It’s a reasonable assumption and display. As you can see what is depicted a notable Celtic-like admixture is also shown in Lower Silesia.
The red color (https://i.ibb.co/2YvyG4kg/output-70.png) is super Slavic. Probably a primitive remnant of the Prague culture.
The Groszowice sample confirms this. Niemcza gives contradictory results, but generally does not differ from the Polish average. Whether this is an admixture of the remains of the Goths, Vikings or Celts is ambiguous.
https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-023-03013-9/MediaObjects/13059_2023_3013_Fig1_HTML.png
The way the Slavic-Germanic border has transformed is the result of 900 years of demographic changes and numerous migrations.
https://i.ibb.co/WNNH8cp3/8c4FVGe.png (https://ibb.co/JWWc6zFd)
Hellenas
02-11-2025, 08:47 PM
Germans are part slavic and nothing can change that. Where is Adolf to hear that!:D
Peterski
02-22-2025, 12:19 AM
well in the 12th century
I think you mean the 1200s, so the 13th century. In the 1100s there was not yet any Ostsiedlung in Polish lands.
rothaer
02-25-2025, 06:37 PM
I think you mean the 1200s, so the 13th century. In the 1100s there was not yet any Ostsiedlung in Polish lands.
Correct. I meant the 13th century.
Germans are part slavic and nothing can change that. Where is Adolf to hear that!:D
I wonder what Himler would do.
He was from Munich and Oberbayern has 0% Slavic admixture according to this. This would give him a relief but he would be pissed at these results. As a result, he would probably do some adjustments to Lebensborn.
How did Königsberg score that low considering its location?
Peterski
03-02-2025, 10:47 PM
Nice map - https://i.imgur.com/y12Kon4.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/y12Kon4.jpeg
Lucas
03-10-2025, 08:19 AM
Slavic (Polish) and Baltic (Old Prussian and Lithguanian) surnames in surveyed few thousands resettled Germans from the east.
Vonderach, 2019
https://i.imgur.com/2aZRqj9.jpeg
Peterski
05-12-2025, 05:42 AM
Slavic (Polish) and Baltic (Old Prussian and Lithguanian) surnames in surveyed few thousands resettled Germans from the east.
Vonderach, 2019
https://i.imgur.com/2aZRqj9.jpeg
I expected more in Kreis Stolp where Kashubians were still 25% of population in year 1800. But maybe a large part of those Kashubians had Germanic origin surnames?
Lucas
05-13-2025, 08:43 AM
I expected more in Kreis Stolp where Kashubians were still 25% of population in year 1800. But maybe a large part of those Kashubians had Germanic origin surnames?
No idea, they were just surveyed Germans from the east, divided to regions. But probably each region sample was low. Consider they were Germans, I think they were checked in '50 so before so called Volkswagen Deutsche migration:). I know some Kashubians on the old German side of the border still lived there and not all emigrated as I went on holidays to this area since years.
rothaer
05-13-2025, 10:05 AM
No idea, they were just surveyed Germans from the east, divided to regions. But probably each region sample was low. Consider they were Germans, I think they were checked in '50 so before so called Volkswagen Deutsche migration:). I know some Kashubians on the old German side of the border still lived there and not all emigrated as I went on holidays to this area since years.
Do you know whether they were Protestant or Catholic? (After you make holidays there I guess it's not in the inland.)
Peterski
05-13-2025, 10:32 AM
By the way this is a Kashubian who ordered my test recently, check him in Eurogenes K36:
Pranga,0,0,0,3.64,0,5.64,0,0,2.87,0,14.36,0,7.70,8 .22,5.09,9.86,0,7.87,0,0,0,14.75,1.94,16.54,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0.38,0,1.14,0
He has many Germanic surnames in the family tree (told me his surnames after the test).
Much more Germanic-shifted than the Kluki Slovincians.
Peterski
05-13-2025, 12:00 PM
But probably each region sample was low.
Yes, the sample size in total seems to be 2759 people, so for some counties probably there are very few samples.
Lucas
05-13-2025, 01:38 PM
Do you know whether they were Protestant or Catholic? (After you make holidays there I guess it's not in the inland.)
It is Białogóra village. They live there people who are known as Germans / autochtons byt others villagers from not this area, also mainly Kashubians but form Puck county usually. I don't want to post their surnames but they still kept them in German form even.
It is Białogóra village. They live there people who are known as Germans / autochtons byt others villagers from not this area, also mainly Kashubians but form Puck county usually. I don't want to post their surnames but they still kept them in German form even.
The surnames can be checked at the Catholic cemetery in Wierzchucino.
https://cmentarnik.net/wierzchucino/A
https://cmentarnik.net/wierzchucino/F
Do you know whether they were Protestant or Catholic? (After you make holidays there I guess it's not in the inland.)
The area of Wierzchucino (located west of the Versailles border) was religiously dual-confessional. Until the peace treaty following World War I, the village of Wierzchucino belonged to the parish in Żarnowiec.
The year 1926 marks the beginning of efforts to establish a parish in Wierzchucino. A rectory was built in 1926–1927, and on April 1, 1928, an independent curacy was established in Wierzchucino.
The first parish priest (curate) was Fr. Bolesław Masłowski. During his tenure, he built a wooden chapel, which was completely destroyed by fire on February 1, 1929. Between 1929 and 1931, a brick church made of red brick was constructed. On September 6, 1931, the church was consecrated by Prelate Franciszek Hartz from Piła.
Initially, the Wierzchucino Parish belonged to the Diocese of Chełmno, and later to the Prelature of Piła. After World War II, it became part of the Diocese of Gorzów, and subsequently the Diocese of Koszalin-Kołobrzeg.
The Lutheran (Evangelical-Augsburg) Church in Wierzchucino is a branch of the Evangelical-Augsburg Parish of Gdańsk-Gdynia-Sopot, based in Sopot. Currently, home worship services are held sporadically at the branch. With the expulsion of the German population, the ethnic structure of the local society became highly homogenized, and in terms of religion, it was almost completely unified. Protestants became a marginal group with a steadily declining number of members.
Peterski
05-14-2025, 08:34 AM
It is Białogóra village.
According to Stefan Ramułt's book "Statystyka ludności kaszubskiej" (which is available online, see the link below):
https://bc.radom.pl/dlibra/publication/47796/edition/46348 - click "Pobierz" button to download the book
Available also here: https://books.google.pl/books?id=SMU_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA241
Białogóra was inhabited by 285 people including 266 Germans, 4 Jews and just 15 Kashubians as of year 1892:
https://i.imgur.com/cOtErAG.png
Peterski
05-14-2025, 08:46 AM
The surnames can be checked at the Catholic cemetery in Wierzchucino.
https://cmentarnik.net/wierzchucino/A
https://cmentarnik.net/wierzchucino/F
Wierzchucin(o) was majority Catholic and Kashubian (see page 204 in Ramułt's book which I linked above).
=====
The Tables in the book contain information like this:
2 - Settlement's name (in Polish, Kashubian and German)
3 - Catholic Kashubians
4 - Protestant Kashubians
5 - Catholic Poles
6 - Protestant Poles
7 - Catholic Germans
8 - Protestant Germans
9 - Jews
10 - Others
11 - Total population
Lucas
05-14-2025, 12:28 PM
According to Stefan Ramułt's book "Statystyka ludności kaszubskiej" (which is available online, see the link below):
https://bc.radom.pl/dlibra/publication/47796/edition/46348 - click "Pobierz" button to download the book
Available also here: https://books.google.pl/books?id=SMU_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA241
Białogóra was inhabited by 285 people including 266 Germans, 4 Jews and just 15 Kashubians as of year 1892:
https://i.imgur.com/cOtErAG.png
This is interesting
celticdragongod
06-05-2025, 01:42 PM
Is this assumption based on the samples from Niemcza (which are the only Lower Silesian samples we have so far)?:
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0122.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.43 %,0.130897,0.132019,0.072407,0.061693,0.045547,0.0 2259,0.011516,0.013384,-0.002659,-0.02442,0.002436,-0.004646,0.015907,0.020231,-0.006786,0.002121,0.002999,-0.003927,0.004651,0.000625,0.002121,0.00371,-0.000123,-0.018316,0.004071
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0124.SG__AD_950__Cov_41.04 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.069767,0.061047,0.0437,0.027 052,0.013396,0.007615,-0.0045,-0.025878,-0.008931,-0.009442,0.008771,0.028488,-0.005157,-0.007425,0.007041,0.000633,0.000628,0.017884,0.000 998,-0.011129,0.008874,0.005784,-0.007903
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %,0.121791,0.132019,0.056945,0.017442,0.033545,0.0 1506,0.00423,0.003,0.005931,0.002005,0.001299,-0.002398,0.008474,0.020506,-0.012079,-0.000265,-0.005476,0.001774,-0.00352,0.002126,-0.017344,0.010634,0.000123,-0.001566,-0.001197
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0127.SG__AD_950__Cov_13.24 %,0.120652,0.119832,0.081835,0.080104,0.058472,0.0 32909,0.00752,0.022153,-0.010431,-0.012028,-0.002273,0.008243,0.006392,0.030415,-0.003393,0.014054,0.009779,0.002027,-0.005656,0.014757,-0.008859,0.001731,-0.011092,0.001084,0.015807
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0132.SG__AD_950__Cov_12.42 %,0.125205,0.120848,0.084098,0.079458,0.041238,0.0 37371,0.00611,0.005538,0.006954,-0.040092,-0.001137,-0.010191,0.004757,0.022295,-0.012079,-0.021612,-0.014081,0.006714,0.013701,0.01113,-0.006489,0.004328,0.012325,-0.015183,0.006826
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0133.SG__AD_950__Cov_8.51% ,0.133173,0.121864,0.080704,0.064277,0.050779,0.04 2949,0.00658,0.015692,-0.012885,-0.023326,-0.007795,-0.003147,-0.000297,0.021744,-0.0095,-0.007425,-0.008866,0.006714,-0.002263,-0.005878,-0.024582,0.005193,0.004314,-0.028317,-0.000958
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0137.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.30 %,0.127482,0.121864,0.07995,0.069768,0.040315,0.02 8168,0.00893,0.012692,-0.01493,-0.018588,0.002273,-0.01139,0.016799,0.018304,-0.0095,0.003315,0.012126,-0.006714,0.013575,-0.001501,0.001872,-0.000124,-0.006039,-0.009519,-0.005149
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0138.SG__AD_950__Cov_10.81 %,0.124067,0.127957,0.075424,0.06137,0.04924,0.050 758,0.018566,0.013384,-0.020861,-0.02934,0.002598,-0.012139,0.010555,0.021469,-0.038409,0.008221,0.014603,-0.003421,-0.006034,-0.002001,0.001996,0.007048,0.018241,-0.012291,0.02862
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0140.SG__AD_950__Cov_25.77 %,0.124067,0.13405,0.03017,0.025194,0.029852,0.000 837,0.00423,0.001846,-0.001432,-0.005285,-0.002598,-0.000899,0.008622,0.017065,-0.017508,-0.003447,0.005998,-0.001394,-0.002891,-0.004127,-0.008111,0.004081,0.010846,0.001325,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0142.SG__AD_950__Cov_16.34 %,0.138864,0.114755,0.076555,0.066215,0.035083,0.0 28168,0.019271,0.013846,-0.005113,-0.012574,-0.003897,-0.001649,0.002081,0.030415,-0.016151,-0.005967,-0.005737,0.010388,-0.020992,-0.000625,0.012603,0.003215,0.010353,-0.000964,-0.005269
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %,0.122929,0.133034,0.048649,0.034238,0.044624,0.0 11992,0.012456,0.004615,0.003068,-0.010205,-0.007307,-0.009591,0,0.010322,-0.005565,0.002121,-0.008996,0.005194,-0.005028,0.003126,0.00025,-0.011871,-0.001849,-0.000482,-0.000599
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %,0.136588,0.127957,0.080704,0.070737,0.0397,0.021 196,0.011516,0.01223,-0.00225,-0.003645,-0.01023,-0.002098,0.013825,0.014588,0.003936,0.008088,0.015 255,0.003294,0.003897,0.014007,0.010606,-0.000989,0.004067,0.000843,0
Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Cov_31.99 %,0.120652,0.125926,0.053174,0.040698,0.029236,0.0 17849,-0.003995,0.013384,0.001841,-0.011299,0.003085,-0.0003,0.01219,0.014588,-0.017915,-0.009149,0.008736,0.000887,0.007668,-0.004002,-0.005241,-0.007048,0.005669,-0.004579,-0.004431
However, Niemcza IIRC was a garrison stronghold where there could be some Czech mercenaries in addition to local Slavs.
Edit:
I guess it is also based on two Upper Silesian samples which are in the G25 datasheet?
Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.05684456 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %
0.06481041 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %
0.06949917 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %
0.06977032 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Cov_31.99 %
0.07348310 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0124.SG__AD_950__Cov_41.04 %
0.07445845 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0122.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.43 %
0.07762919 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0140.SG__AD_950__Cov_25.77 %
0.08014362 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0142.SG__AD_950__Cov_16.34 %
0.08169233 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0137.SG__AD_950__Cov_31.30 %
0.08724136 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0127.SG__AD_950__Cov_13.24 %
0.08748685 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0133.SG__AD_950__Cov_8.51%
0.09002697 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0132.SG__AD_950__Cov_12.42 %
0.10934288 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0138.SG__AD_950__Cov_10.81 %
Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 5.0852% / 0.05085197
54.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %
38.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0148.SG__AD_950__Cov_50.25 %
6.8 Poland_Niemcza_MA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %
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