How Celtic were the Celtiberians?

[Athalafuns]

I think it is interesting to analyze these two individuals, probably from the Varduli tribe or the surrounding area, in the north of the Iberian Peninsula. They were not strictly Celtiberians, but their neighbors, so don't take the title too seriously.

I3758, female, U5b1 mtDNA, 365BC-204BC.
I3759, male, I2a1a1a Y-DNA, H1 mtDNA, 361BC-195BC.

Target: Spain_IA_Celt:I3758
Distance: 5.5470% / 0.05546990
53.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
19.6 WHG

Target: Spain_IA_Celt:I3759
Distance: 4.2035% / 0.04203526
54.2 TUR_Barcin_N
25.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.4 WHG


400BC-200BC
30.6 Czechia_IA_LaTene
26.8 France_GrandEst_IA
15.0 Spain_IA_Celt_o
14.4 Austria_IA_LaTene
6.8 Spain_IA
6.4 France_Occitanie_IA
------
36.4 Spain_IA
16.8 Hungary_IA_LaTene
15.6 France_Occitanie_IA
15.4 Italy_Verona_LIA
11.8 France_GrandEst_IA
4.0 Spain_IA_o

600BC-400BC
55.2 Spain_IA
15.2 France_Occitanie_IA
14.8 Hungary_IA_Scythian.SG
10.0 England_EIA
4.8 France_Occitanie_IA2.SG
-----
53.4 Spain_IA
38.4 Germany_West-Hallstattkreis_EIA
8.2 France_Occitanie_IA

800BC-600BC
31.8 Italy_Tuscany_Siena_Etruscan
29.4 England_EIA
25.2 Spain_Navarra_EIA
8.8 England_EIA_highEEF
4.8 Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat
-----
27.2 Spain_EIA_Tartessian (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?390241-A-brief-approach-to-Tartessos)
24.4 England_EIA_highEEF
21.6 Germany_West-Hallstattkreis_EIA
13.4 Spain_Navarra_EIA
11.2 Spain_IA
2.0 Slovenia_EIA
0.2 France_GrandEst_IA

1000BC-800BC
36.8 England_LBA_highEEF
32.0 Spain_Menorca_LBA_new
18.2 Hungary_EIA
13.0 Czechia_IA_Hallstatt.SG
-----
31.8 Spain_Menorca_LBA_new
29.0 Hungary_LBA
26.4 Spain_LBA
12.4 England_LBA
0.4 Czechia_IA_Hallstatt.SG

1200BC-1000BC
49.0 Spain_LBA
45.6 Czechia_LBA_Knoviz
5.4 Spain_Aritgues_LBA
-----
39.6 Czechia_LBA_Knoviz
33.8 Spain_Aritgues_LBA
26.6 Spain_LBA


In the Urnfield period we observe that 40/45% of their genes correlate with Central European proto-Celtic contexts. Their ancestors later wandered through the Pannonian Basin, came into conflict with the Scythians and displaced them after the latter had lost against Philip II of Macedon, as narrated by Strabo. Our Celtiberian woman bears the genetic imprint of that conflict more clearly.

As can be deduced from the data shown above, their Celtic-half reached the peninsula around 500BC-400BC, probably pushed first by the Prague-Danube La Tène focus, and then by those of the Rhine and the Seine in their Alpine expansion. I would say it was a long but quick ride to Iberia.

https://i.postimg.cc/RVs9qNBK/14458-png.webp (https://postimg.cc/nCDNPVMh)


As for modern populations, they still correlate with the Basques due to their high WHG. Modern Spaniards owe much more genetically to the Roman era than to the pre-Roman one (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?390281-Spanish-Ethnogenesis-G25-(v2)).

Distance to: Spain_IA_Celt:I3758
0.02603318 Basque_French
0.02617151 Basque_Araba
0.02698447 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.02960428 Basque_Baztan

Distance to: Spain_IA_Celt:I3759
0.02650562 Basque_Araba
0.02780756 French_Chalosse
0.02801651 Basque_Biscay
0.02806314 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest

[Beowulf]

Awesome!

Although i think the best way to know how Celtic were Celtiberians is culturally speaking rather than genetically, Celts were literally everywhere and some mixed with a lot of different local tribes and yet they managed to preserve a great part of their culture, i mean many ancient celtic samples are somewhat different to each other genetically, for example Celtiberians weren't the same genetically as Britons although a great part of the Celtiberian culture was indeed Celtic derived from central european migrations.

I hope that I am making myself understood

[R1b-L51]

Obviously the Celtiberians were not Celts, they were only Celts in culture, but genetically they were Basques.

The only real Celts on the peninsula were the Lusitanians, and today surely the Catalans and Aragonese due to Frankish repopulation.

Only the Portuguese and Catalans exceed 30% yamnaya, the rest of Iberia is barely close to 30%, some even have 20% or so.

Even what we think today that the Asturian and Cantabrian Galicians were Celts, that is not true.

They were the product of the mixing of the local populations of the Neolithic EEF+ Berbers, who mixed with the Hallsttat Celts that the Basques and Iberians (including Celtiberians) repudiated and cornered.

We must understand that the Mediterranean people (as we can see in the Italians) are very robust, and with their mixture with the WHG they became more massive.

The only time in which the Hallsttat Celts improved their statistics was when they mixed with the EEF and Berber population of the western peninsula, then they did become very dangerous tribes that took the WHG part for themselves, adding it to the local Mediterranean, for example. Curiously, the Basques repudiated those invasions but then the Astyr and Cantabri returned already mixed and they were the ones who attacked the Basques.

In short, in some way they also became Basques but in an indirect way.

[RyoHazuki]

Obviously the Celtiberians were not Celts, they were only Celts in culture, but genetically they were Basques.

The only real Celts on the peninsula were the Lusitanians, and today surely the Catalans and Aragonese due to Frankish repopulation.

Only the Portuguese and Catalans exceed 30% yamnaya, the rest of Iberia is barely close to 30%, some even have 20% or so.

Even what we think today that the Asturian and Cantabrian Galicians were Celts, that is not true.

They were the product of the mixing of the local populations of the Neolithic EEF+ Berbers, who mixed with the Hallsttat Celts that the Basques and Iberians (including Celtiberians) repudiated and cornered.

We must understand that the Mediterranean people (as we can see in the Italians) are very robust, and with their mixture with the WHG they became more massive.

The only time in which the Hallsttat Celts improved their statistics was when they mixed with the EEF and Berber population of the western peninsula, then they did become very dangerous tribes that took the WHG part for themselves, adding it to the local Mediterranean, for example. Curiously, the Basques repudiated those invasions but then the Astyr and Cantabri returned already mixed and they were the ones who attacked the Basques.

In short, in some way they also became Basques but in an indirect way.

There is no "celtic" genetics.

[cass]

There is no "celtic" genetics.



There is no such genetics? So who were they?

Przeworsk_Gaski_2:PCA0012,0.134311,0.145221,0.0546 82,0.030685,0.050163,0.007809,-0.00141,0.006,0.013908,0.01877,-0.003085,0.01154,-0.01115,-0.007982,0.013843,0.011138,0.005215,0.006588,0.006 536,-0.001626,-0.001373,0.001731,-0.000616,-0.001446,-0.00012


Distance to: Przeworsk_Gaski_2:PCA0012
0.02376348 French_Paris
0.02526591 French_Occitanie
0.02596486 BelgianC
0.02610643 French_Nord
0.02660070 BelgianB
0.02807318 French_Auvergne
0.02841754 Swiss_German
0.02845146 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02855982 French_Alsace
0.03214689 French_Brittany
0.03244517 BelgianA
0.03271780 Swiss_French
0.03485112 German
0.03491950 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03548238 Welsh
0.03766621 English_Cornwall
0.03772799 German_Erlangen
0.03886376 English
0.03914468 Dutch
0.03915034 Austrian
0.03924875 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03941203 Basque_Araba
0.03955135 Spanish_Penedes
0.03966296 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04004295 Afrikaner

[RyoHazuki]

There is no such genetics? So who were they?

Przeworsk_Gaski_2:PCA0012,0.134311,0.145221,0.0546 82,0.030685,0.050163,0.007809,-0.00141,0.006,0.013908,0.01877,-0.003085,0.01154,-0.01115,-0.007982,0.013843,0.011138,0.005215,0.006588,0.006 536,-0.001626,-0.001373,0.001731,-0.000616,-0.001446,-0.00012


Distance to: Przeworsk_Gaski_2:PCA0012
0.02376348 French_Paris
0.02526591 French_Occitanie
0.02596486 BelgianC
0.02610643 French_Nord
0.02660070 BelgianB
0.02807318 French_Auvergne
0.02841754 Swiss_German
0.02845146 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02855982 French_Alsace
0.03214689 French_Brittany
0.03244517 BelgianA
0.03271780 Swiss_French
0.03485112 German
0.03491950 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03548238 Welsh
0.03766621 English_Cornwall
0.03772799 German_Erlangen
0.03886376 English
0.03914468 Dutch
0.03915034 Austrian
0.03924875 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03941203 Basque_Araba
0.03955135 Spanish_Penedes
0.03966296 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04004295 Afrikaner

A bunch of unaffiliated tribes who spoke related languages and shared similar culture. Their genetics were as diverse as their geographic location. It's not like there's any founder affect or one small group greatly expanding across the continent with the earliest celts.

[cass]

A bunch of unaffiliated tribes who spoke related languages and shared similar culture. Their genetics were as diverse as their geographic location. It's not like there's any founder affect or one small group greatly expanding across the continent with the earliest celts.

I fundamentally disagree with this.

Since we have Roman historical sources describing the regions of Gaul, this is sufficient proof of their existence and a certain concentration, not only cultural but also genetic.


Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur. 2 Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt. Gallos ab Aquitanis Garumna flumen, a Belgis Matrona et Sequana dividit. 3 Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae, propterea quod a cultu atque humanitate provinciae longissime absunt, minimeque ad eos mercatores saepe commeant atque ea quae ad effeminandos animos pertinent important, 4 proximique sunt Germanis, qui trans Rhenum incolunt, quibuscum continenter bellum gerunt. Qua de causa Helvetii quoque reliquos Gallos virtute praecedunt, quod fere cotidianis proeliis cum Germanis contendunt, cum aut suis finibus eos prohibent aut ipsi in eorum finibus bellum gerunt. 5 Eorum una pars, quam Gallos obtinere dictum est, initium capit a flumine Rhodano, continetur Garumna flumine, Oceano, finibus Belgarum, attingit etiam ab Sequanis et Helvetiis flumen Rhenum, vergit ad septentriones. 6 Belgae ab extremis Galliae finibus oriuntur, pertinent ad inferiorem partem fluminis Rheni, spectant in septentrionem et orientem solem. 7 Aquitania a Garumna flumine ad Pyrenaeos montes et eam partem Oceani quae est ad Hispaniam pertinet; spectat inter occasum solis et septentriones.
https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/caesar/gall1.shtml

[Gallop]

Historical sources that speak of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula

https://astures.es/fuentes-historicas-que-hablan-de-los-celtas-en-la-peninsula-iberica/


They are mentioned in the ancient classics, so they have not gone unnoticed in the Iberian Peninsula, nor are they exclusively located in northern Iberia.

They must have been like the gypsies that are everywhere, I don't think they looked like the clichés that most people have in their heads.

[RyoHazuki]

I fundamentally disagree with this.

Since we have Roman historical sources describing the regions of Gaul, this is sufficient proof of their existence and a certain concentration, not only cultural but also genetic.


Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur. 2 Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt. Gallos ab Aquitanis Garumna flumen, a Belgis Matrona et Sequana dividit. 3 Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae, propterea quod a cultu atque humanitate provinciae longissime absunt, minimeque ad eos mercatores saepe commeant atque ea quae ad effeminandos animos pertinent important, 4 proximique sunt Germanis, qui trans Rhenum incolunt, quibuscum continenter bellum gerunt. Qua de causa Helvetii quoque reliquos Gallos virtute praecedunt, quod fere cotidianis proeliis cum Germanis contendunt, cum aut suis finibus eos prohibent aut ipsi in eorum finibus bellum gerunt. 5 Eorum una pars, quam Gallos obtinere dictum est, initium capit a flumine Rhodano, continetur Garumna flumine, Oceano, finibus Belgarum, attingit etiam ab Sequanis et Helvetiis flumen Rhenum, vergit ad septentriones. 6 Belgae ab extremis Galliae finibus oriuntur, pertinent ad inferiorem partem fluminis Rheni, spectant in septentrionem et orientem solem. 7 Aquitania a Garumna flumine ad Pyrenaeos montes et eam partem Oceani quae est ad Hispaniam pertinet; spectat inter occasum solis et septentriones.
https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/caesar/gall1.shtml

I never said Celts didn't exist, but Roman historicity isn't really a good basis for anything definitively factual.

[cass]

I never said Celts didn't exist, but Roman historicity isn't really a good basis for anything definitively factual.


Gallic War is an excellent first hand source. Study the text carefully. Caesar clearly places the Celtic core in the center of Gaul between the Belgians, Helvetii and Aquitanians, and furthermore gives the boundaries of the watersheds.

[RyoHazuki]

Gallic War is an excellent first hand source. Study the text carefully. Caesar clearly places the Celtic core in the center of Gaul between the Belgians, Helvetii and Aquitanians, and furthermore gives the boundaries of the watersheds.

Roman historical accounts are opinions and facts mixed together, take it at face value because its not empirical evidence of anything.

[R1b-L51]

Historical sources that speak of the Celts in the Iberian Peninsula

https://astures.es/fuentes-historicas-que-hablan-de-los-celtas-en-la-peninsula-iberica/


They are mentioned in the ancient classics, so they have not gone unnoticed in the Iberian Peninsula, nor are they exclusively located in northern Iberia.

They must have been like the gypsies that are everywhere, I don't think they looked like the clichés that most people have in their heads.


It is that the Astyrs are not Celts, when the Romans encountered the Astyrs and Cantabri and Gallaeci, they said of them that they lived in huts and in a very similar way to the Berber tribes of North Africa and that they used the same guerrilla tactics.
In fact, there are numerous relationships that, in addition to being genetic and evidenced by Roman observations, also include etymological evidence. For example, the leader of the Cantabrians Corocotta, curiously uses the same name given to a type of dingo (wild dogs from North Africa).

"In Aithiopia there is an animal called Krokottas, vulgarly Kynolykos (dog-wolf), of amazing strength. It is said to imitate the human voice, to call men by name at night, and to devour those who approach it. It is as brave as a lion, as swift as a horse, and as strong as a bull. It cannot be overcome by any weapon of steel." -
Ctesias, Indica (resumido en Photius, Myriobiblon, 72).

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corocotta

In reality, the rare genetics that predominate in these so-called Celts (the Astyr and the Cantabri) are a mixture of Hallsttat (R1a of the corded type) + Berber haplogroup E. (of course on a broad R base like most peninsulars)


https://i.postimg.cc/nr3CvDHN/Screenshot-2024-11-25-at-00-07-01-New-distribution-map-of-Y-haplogroup-E-M81.png (https://postimages.org/)image sharing (https://postimages.org/es/)

https://i.postimg.cc/YSBqL36h/Screenshot-2024-11-25-at-00-14-06-Mapas-de-haplogrupos-del-Y-ADN-en-Europa.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/s2PfYhmK/Screenshot-2024-11-25-at-00-12-29-Mapas-de-haplogrupos-del-Y-ADN-en-Europa.png (https://postimages.org/)

Many Celtic or Gaul elements, such as the use of musical bagpipes, were introduced due to the customs that the Romans had in bringing militiamen "alas" alaes or auxilias to their camps, and also settlers and servants from the Gauls and the Germanies.
Auxiliary troops (from Latin auxilia) were units of the Roman army composed of soldiers who were not Roman citizens. Their main purpose was to support the Roman legions in combat, composed exclusively of Roman citizens, and they also played an important role in the work of repression, pillage and skirmishes that complemented the pitched battles in the wars.

https://i.postimg.cc/262zJNPZ/Screenshot-2024-11-25-at-00-13-00-Mapas-de-haplogrupos-del-Y-ADN-en-Europa.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Obviously the Celtiberians were not Celts, they were only Celts in culture, but genetically they were Basques.

The only real Celts on the peninsula were the Lusitanians, and today surely the Catalans and Aragonese due to Frankish repopulation.

Only the Portuguese and Catalans exceed 30% yamnaya, the rest of Iberia is barely close to 30%, some even have 20% or so.

Even what we think today that the Asturian and Cantabrian Galicians were Celts, that is not true.

They were the product of the mixing of the local populations of the Neolithic EEF+ Berbers, who mixed with the Hallsttat Celts that the Basques and Iberians (including Celtiberians) repudiated and cornered.

We must understand that the Mediterranean people (as we can see in the Italians) are very robust, and with their mixture with the WHG they became more massive.

The only time in which the Hallsttat Celts improved their statistics was when they mixed with the EEF and Berber population of the western peninsula, then they did become very dangerous tribes that took the WHG part for themselves, adding it to the local Mediterranean, for example. Curiously, the Basques repudiated those invasions but then the Astyr and Cantabri returned already mixed and they were the ones who attacked the Basques.

In short, in some way they also became Basques but in an indirect way.



The statements you've shared present a highly specific interpretation of Iberian genetic and cultural history, but they contain several inaccuracies or debatable points based on current archaeological, genetic, and historical understanding.
Let’s break it down:

1. Celtiberians: "Not Celts, but genetically Basques"

Celtiberians: They were a fusion of Celtic and Iberian influences, both culturally and linguistically. The archaeological record suggests significant Celtic cultural elements (e.g., Hallstatt and La Tène influences), alongside local Iberian traditions.

Genetic Basques: Modern Basques have distinctive genetic markers, but whether Celtiberians shared the same genetic profile is uncertain. Genetic continuity in Basque populations is more associated with their relative isolation over time than with shared ancestry with Celtiberians.

2. "The only real Celts on the peninsula were the Lusitanians"

This is misleading. The Lusitanians were distinct from both Iberians and Celts and may have spoken a pre-Indo-European language, although there are Celtic influences in their culture and names.

Celts in Iberia: Celtic-speaking groups were widespread in the northern and western Iberian Peninsula, including the Gallaeci, Astures, and Cantabri. These groups showed clear cultural links to broader Celtic Europe.

3. Yamnaya ancestry in Iberia

Yamnaya ancestry, associated with Steppe pastoralists, is present across Europe due to Indo-European migrations. Percentages of Yamnaya ancestry vary but are influenced by later population movements. Modern Iberians, including Portuguese and Catalans, show less Steppe ancestry compared to northern Europeans but still retain traces.

The claim that only Portuguese and Catalans exceed 30% is overly simplistic and unsupported by detailed genetic studies.

4. Asturians, Cantabrians, and Galicians

These northern groups have historically been associated with Celtic cultural elements, particularly in the Roman period and later. While their genetic makeup shows a mix of Neolithic, Steppe, and Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry, dismissing their Celtic identity simplifies a complex historical and cultural reality.

5. "Mediterranean people mixed with WHG became massive"

Mediterranean populations show genetic input from Early European Farmers (EEF), while WHG contributions varied across Europe. There is no strong evidence that this mixing made populations "massive"; physical robustness varies due to multiple factors, including environment and nutrition.

6. Basques and invasions

Basques historically resisted many waves of cultural assimilation but likely engaged in genetic exchange with neighboring groups. The idea that mixed Astures and Cantabrians later attacked Basques lacks clear historical evidence.

[R1b-L51]

The statements you've shared present a highly specific interpretation of Iberian genetic and cultural history, but they contain several inaccuracies or debatable points based on current archaeological, genetic, and historical understanding.
Let’s break it down:

3. Yamnaya ancestry in Iberia

Yamnaya ancestry, associated with Steppe pastoralists, is present across Europe due to Indo-European migrations. Percentages of Yamnaya ancestry vary but are influenced by later population movements. Modern Iberians, including Portuguese and Catalans, show less Steppe ancestry compared to northern Europeans but still retain traces.

The claim that only Portuguese and Catalans exceed 30% is overly simplistic and unsupported by detailed genetic studies.

I invite you to search the forum for Andalusians, Extremadurans, Cantabrians, Asturians (even Galicians), Navarrese, Basques, Valencians, or Murcians who exceed 30% of Yamnaya (you will see that it is impossible)


4. Asturians, Cantabrians, and Galicians

These northern groups have historically been associated with Celtic cultural elements, particularly in the Roman period and later. While their genetic makeup shows a mix of Neolithic, Steppe, and Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry, dismissing their Celtic identity simplifies a complex historical and cultural reality.

I don't see any contradiction with what I said.


5. "Mediterranean people mixed with WHG became massive"

Mediterranean populations show genetic input from Early European Farmers (EEF), while WHG contributions varied across Europe. There is no strong evidence that this mixing made populations "massive"; physical robustness varies due to multiple factors, including environment and nutrition.

It is clear as daylight that the more Mediterranean populations, such as Italians and Greeks, have heavier bone structures. If you haven't noticed, I recommend you do. Specifically, they have wider heads and thicker legs.


6. Basques and invasions

Basques historically resisted many waves of cultural assimilation but likely engaged in genetic exchange with neighboring groups. The idea that mixed Astures and Cantabrians later attacked Basques lacks clear historical evidence.

From the pre-Roman point of view, the Vasconid or Vascongado concept, roughly speaking, and I am being very permissive, refers to the Caristians, Varduli and Autrigones; the Basques are something else and a very different gentility.

Regarding the invasion of the Cantabri and the Astyrs to the Basques, I simply misread it and I do apologize for that because the relations were very good and in fact they last until today. Throughout the High Middle Ages there were wonderful relations between the Basques of the Kingdom of Pamplona and Nájera and the Astures of the Regnum Imperium Legionensis, they were even allies and their princes and princesses married between both kingdoms and among themselves.


But my confusion comes from misreading, and believing that the Astures invaded the Vasconids (not Basques) of the Autrigones or Varduli type, but in reality what I had read was about the Vacceos, excuse my bad memory:

Due to the scarcity of their agricultural production, as well as their strong war-like character, they made frequent incursions into the lands of the Vaccaei, who had a much more developed agriculture. Lucan calls them "Pale seekers after gold" ("Asturii scrutator pallidus auri").

[Athalafuns]

https://youtu.be/g2VtUnLfws4?feature=shared