Dutch overlap with Irish/Scottish/Welsh DNA

[Watersater79]

I have seen quite a plethora of Gedmatch kits from the northern Netherlands and when taking into distance, they often cluster nearest to the Irish or Scottish rather than northern Germans. How can this be? The vast majority of the ancestry of the modern-day Irish, Welsh & Scottish is derived from the migrants that came across the North Sea (from the modern-day Netherlands) during the Bell Beaker period. It appears that remnants of that populace also survived to a greater extent along the western edge of the northern European plain (modern-day Netherlands) than further east (such as in Germany). I would argue that lots of Dutch people would look atypical even in Lower Saxony (when taking into my account my visit there in November) and that a causation of the (moderate) phenotypical contrast between the Dutch and their German neighbors is down to this 'pre-Germanic' element being greater in the DNA of the former. There doesn't seem to be anywhere close to the same overlap between northern Germans and the Irish/Welsh/Scottish. I do also notice that a lot of Dutch people (seemingly of entirely Dutch ancestry) have brown eyes (sometimes accompanied with a rather swarthy disposition, also practically absent amongst northern Germans). In the political realm, Ruud Lubbers and Dick Schoof are perfect examples of this 'type'. Considering the large minority of the Dutch DNA that is derived from Upper Paleolithic sources (almost always associated with pale skin/light eyes), the large minority of brown-eyed individuals as well can't be attributed to anything other than something of non-Germanic/Upper Paleolithic admixture.

[cass]

I don't want to be boring but I refer you to the source of Julius Caesar: De Bello Gallico


Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae,
Of all these (tribes) the Belgians are the bravest,

propterea quod a cultū atque humanitate provinciae longissimē absunt,
for the reason that they are the furthest away from the refinement and civilization of the Province,

minimēque ad eos mercatores saepe commeant atque ea quae ad
and least (often) do the merchants often go and come to them and import those things

effeminandos animos pertinent important Germanīs, proximique sunt
which tend to weaken (men’s) courage, and they are nearest to the Germans,

qui trans Rhenum incolunt, quibus cum continenter bellum gerunt.
who live across the Rhine River, with whom they regularly wage war.

https://www.usu.edu/markdamen/latin1000/readings/1020b/23caesar2.pdf

[#Oda#]

I guess, because there are simply not very many Germans on Gedmatch, thus even less from Northern Germany.
I plot close to N Dutch, as well my father.

[Watersater79]

I guess, because there are simply not very many Germans on Gedmatch, thus even less from Northern Germany.
I plot close to N Dutch, as well my father.

There should be far more Germans than Dutch on Gedmatch simply because the latter are significantly outnumbered by the former in the wider world.

[Paleolithic]

I have seen quite a plethora of Gedmatch kits from the northern Netherlands and when taking into distance, they often cluster nearest to the Irish or Scottish rather than northern Germans. How can this be? The vast majority of the ancestry of the modern-day Irish, Welsh & Scottish is derived from the migrants that came across the North Sea (from the modern-day Netherlands) during the Bell Beaker period. It appears that remnants of that populace also survived to a greater extent along the western edge of the northern European plain (modern-day Netherlands) than further east (such as in Germany). I would argue that lots of Dutch people would look atypical even in Lower Saxony (when taking into my account my visit there in November) and that a causation of the (moderate) phenotypical contrast between the Dutch and their German neighbors is down to this 'pre-Germanic' element being greater in the DNA of the former. There doesn't seem to be anywhere close to the same overlap between northern Germans and the Irish/Welsh/Scottish. I do also notice that a lot of Dutch people (seemingly of entirely Dutch ancestry) have brown eyes (sometimes accompanied with a rather swarthy disposition, also practically absent amongst northern Germans). In the political realm, Ruud Lubbers and Dick Schoof are perfect examples of this 'type'. Considering the large minority of the Dutch DNA that is derived from Upper Paleolithic sources (almost always associated with pale skin/light eyes), the large minority of brown-eyed individuals as well can't be attributed to anything other than something of non-Germanic/Upper Paleolithic admixture.

Well Irish, Scots and Welsh are generally lighter eyed and skinned than Dutch so I don't understand the pre-Germanic connection with swarthy Dutch.

[Watersater79]

Well Irish, Scots and Welsh are generally lighter eyed and skinned than Dutch so I don't understand the pre-Germanic connection with swarthy Dutch.

I am not sure about the Scottish & Welsh but maybe the Welsh are the only northern European ethnicity that have a higher % of brown eyes more than blue. The Irish & Scottish are (alongwith the Finns) the palest of all Europeans but this is also not the case for the Welsh. The Welsh are generally fair-skinned but are no paler than the Dutch or Germans and are definitely swarthier than the English (even with their Germanic admixture).

[Paleolithic]

I am not sure about the Scottish & Welsh but maybe the Welsh are the only northern European ethnicity that have a higher % of brown eyes more than blue. The Irish & Scottish are (alongwith the Finns) the palest of all Europeans but this is also not the case for the Welsh. The Welsh are generally fair-skinned but are no paler than the Dutch or Germans and are definitely swarthier than the English (even with their Germanic admixture).

True brown eyes are rare in Northern Europe. No way Welsh have have more brown than blue lol (unless you want to include any eye colour that's not blue brown, maybe..)

Scots are consistently one of the lightest-eyed populations based on the studies I've seen. Germans are darker eyed than either Dutch or Brits.

[cass]

... Germans are darker eyed than either Dutch or Brits.

Do you have Martin-scale data for Northern Germany or the Netherlands? I'd love to see.

[Paleolithic]

Do you have Martin-scale data for Northern Germany or the Netherlands? I'd love to see.

No.

Northern Germany is broad, you have to be more specific.

[cass]

No.

Northern Germany is broad, you have to be more specific.

E.g. Schleswig, Friesland and Mecklenburg.

[Paleolithic]

E.g. Schleswig, Friesland and Mecklenburg.

This is the one with the most precision.

134893

Germany is more diverse than the British Isles in eye colour (and darker), this is to be expected when you take geography into account.

[cass]

This is the one with the most precision.

134893

Germany is more diverse than the British Isles in eye colour (and darker), this is to be expected when you take geography into account.


I asked for reliable, detailed data on the Martin scale.

[Paleolithic]

I asked for reliable, detailed data on the Martin scale.

This is based on the Martin scale. Read the caption.

It's not perfect, but who cares.

[cass]

This is based on the Martin scale. Read the caption.

It's not perfect, but who cares.

With all due respect, I don't believe anything until I see the source data.
We have a lot of data, but it is missing from the Netherlands and Northern Germany.



It is clear from the description that someone is mixing data from three different scales. I don't buy it.

[Paleolithic]

With all due respect, I don't believe anything until I see the source data.

Fair enough.

https://justpaste.it/40dd8

The Pastebin has all the references to the data used and collected.

[cass]

Fair enough.

https://justpaste.it/40dd8

The Pastebin has all the references to the data used and collected.

GERMANY - Rudolf Virchow: Gesamtbericht über die von der deutschen anthropologischen Gesellschaft veranlassten Erhebungen über die Farbe der Haut, der Haare unde der Augen der Schulkinder in Deutschland, Archiv fur Anthropologie, 1886

No scale was used there

[cass]

Fair enough.

https://justpaste.it/40dd8

The Pastebin has all the references to the data used and collected.

For me, reliable British scaled data are those contained in the

RECORDS OF EYE COLOURS FOR BRITISH POPULATIONS AND A DESCRIPTION OF A NEW EYE-COLOUR SCALEView article pageJ. GRIEVE, G. M. MORANT
Annals of EugenicsVolume 13, Issue 1Jan 1946

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-1809.1946.tb02354.x

[JerryS.]

I have Scottish, Irish, English and North German (and minor Italian) ancestry. If you include Danish and Dutch in most G25 calculators I end up pulling both of those and losing everything north sea but Irish from the rest.

[Damião de Góis]

With all due respect, I don't believe anything until I see the source data.
We have a lot of data, but it is missing from the Netherlands and Northern Germany.



It is clear from the description that someone is mixing data from three different scales. I don't buy it.

Yes, that map is an attempt to merge different studies from different countries that used different methodologies, along with some interpretations of the map maker. A single study that covers all Europe under one scale/method is something that doesn't exist.

[cass]

Yes, that map is an attempt to merge different studies from different countries that used different methodologies, along with some interpretations of the map maker. A single study that covers all Europe under one scale/method is something that doesn't exist.

A very clumsy approach, and also these "personal observations". It's laughable. Someone didn't want to read the available books.

[Paleolithic]

A very clumsy approach, and also these "personal observations". It's laughable. Someone didn't want to read the available books.

Agreed. It's the lazy man approach.