IllustrativeDNA updated periodical again -- did yours update?

[ScandinavianCelt]

I just noticed IllustrativeDNA.com updated my periodical results, again.

The Middle Ages Global setting shifted me from Germanic to Celtic. A few weeks ago it was 52.5% Germanic, 25% (roughly) Insular Celtic. Now, it is totally different, using same merged data....now I'm more slightly more Baltic than Germanic too. Celtic is dominating all.

check if yours is updated too and post if anything different please, pointing out what changed for you

my MA-Global merged data now is:

https://i.postimg.cc/7LvwGhsx/MA-ILLDNA-12325.jpg (https://postimg.cc/K15dCGhV)


Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
51.8%

Baltic (AD 900–1050)
13.4%

Germanic (AD 700–1000)
13.0%

Italian (AD 650–1450)
10.0%

France (AD 130–1400)
8.4%

Papuan (400–200 BC)
1.0%

Balkans (AD 500–1000)
0.6%

Old Bering Sea Culture (AD 200–1330)
0.6%

Iberian (AD 300–1200)
0.4%

Swat Valley (300 BC–AD 1350)
0.4%

Indian Subcontinent (AD 690–990)
0.4%

A few weeks ago I was 41% Nordland Viking during Middle Ages, now it has shifted to 41% Pict and only 1% Nordland!

https://i.postimg.cc/QxKSMdRN/pict.jpg (https://postimg.cc/SJqcTkSH)

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't think mine has changed.

https://i.postimg.cc/bJNsGBdg/Screenshot-2025-01-24-072655.png

[Peterski]

Such radical changes are weird.

How much does this test cost?

[Dušan]

I got 0.2% Sub-Saharan African in Bronze Age, and 0.2% Gandhara Grave Culture in Iron Age. :lightbul:

Both in Western Balkans mode.

https://i.imgur.com/shUT56q.png

https://i.imgur.com/LnXbx5I.png

[gixajo]

Such radical changes are weird.

How much does this test cost?

It is based a lot on the G25 (now on its own G25 or similar), so I guess that as more and more samples come to light lately, updates including those samples are becoming more frequent.

[Peterski]

Yeah but changing from 41% Germanic Viking to only 1% is a rather radical shift.

I guess it has more to do with new G25 coordinates than with new samples.

[cass]

https://i.ibb.co/crRwhSp/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-03932-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/XC6Dxrd)
https://i.ibb.co/cDfS2Gn/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-03918-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/5BpgsNH)
https://i.ibb.co/sb7pVWt/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-0392-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/vV9CjXD)

Pure speculation. It varies depending on the period. :bored:

[Beowulf]

I'll take a peek at it tomorrow...

[Peterski]

https://i.ibb.co/crRwhSp/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-03932-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/XC6Dxrd)
https://i.ibb.co/cDfS2Gn/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-03918-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/5BpgsNH)
https://i.ibb.co/sb7pVWt/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-0392-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/vV9CjXD)

Pure speculation. It varies depending on the period. :bored:

The first one looks like Speidel's model for Polish Medieval population:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08275-2

"(...) Instead, the majority of individuals from medieval Poland can be modelled only as a mixture of ancestries related to Roman Iron Age Lithuania, which is similar to ancestries of individuals from middle to late Bronze Age Poland (44%, 95% confidence interval 36–51%), an ancestry component related to Hungarian Scythians or Slovakian La Tène individuals (49%, 95% confidence interval 41–57%) and potentially a minority component of ancestry related to Sarmatians from the Caucasus (P = 0.13) (Fig. 2c). (...)"

[cass]

The first one looks like Speidel's model for Polish Medieval population:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08275-2

"(...) Instead, the majority of individuals from medieval Poland can be modelled only as a mixture of ancestries related to Roman Iron Age Lithuania, which is similar to ancestries of individuals from middle to late Bronze Age Poland (44%, 95% confidence interval 36–51%), an ancestry component related to Hungarian Scythians or Slovakian La Tène individuals (49%, 95% confidence interval 41–57%) and potentially a minority component of ancestry related to Sarmatians from the Caucasus (P = 0.13) (Fig. 2c). (...)"

After what I saw in the K36 and G25 models, I don't believe in such a LaTene model at all.

That truth lies in the middle.

https://i.ibb.co/y0syK9N/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-05516-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)


I am convinced that the main line of the Slavic population can be traced directly from the CW through Trzciniec.
And the separation from the Balts took place very early (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?391762-Genetic-differentiation-of-Balto-Slavs).

[~Elizabeth~]

I don't recall what my old one was. It is probably somewhere on this forum. Here are screenshots of what I have as of now.


https://i.postimg.cc/Dw021S4y/1.png


https://i.postimg.cc/jS1RcRy6/2.png


https://i.postimg.cc/BbJ3bbG3/3.png


https://i.postimg.cc/KjQ2MbZM/4.png

[Peterski]

That truth lies in the middle.

Yeah, but relevant Iron Age populations are not yet available.

[Fistora]

My didn't change i think, at least i didn't pay much attention

Iron Age:
136839
Late Antiquity
136840
Middle Ages:
136841

[cass]

Yeah, but relevant Iron Age populations are not yet available.

Of course. Just like the Germans, we have a cremation gap, but this can be proven indirectly.

[ScandinavianCelt]

Such radical changes are weird.

How much does this test cost?

On Global, my Germanic peaks in Late Antiquity at 40%.

Maybe the "Global" is not the best to use, I don't know.

[Fistora]

On Global, my Germanic peaks in Late Antiquity at 40%.

Maybe the "Global" is not the best to use, I don't know.

I personally would not rely on "Global" it basically overfits result which not always mean it is correct. if you know that most of your ancestors come from Western Europe just put Europe(north) > Northwest europe

[Fistora]

My Late antiquity on "Global"
136842
These results are wild not gonna lie.
it's just mathematics model

[Peterski]

https://i.ibb.co/y0syK9N/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-05516-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Interesting that even you as a Kashubian score nearly 10% of Southern European admixture in the Middle Ages mode.

Would be interesting to compare with how much of South Europe you score in Genomik's test in Standard Mode.

Edit:

Okay I guess Roman Pannonia is not fully Southern European but it surely has a strong South European component.

[Peterski]

My Late antiquity on "Global"
136842
These results are wild not gonna lie.
it's just mathematics model

30% of Roman Iberia?!

[cass]

Interesting that even you as a Kashubian score nearly 10% of Southern European admixture in the Middle Ages mode.

Would be interesting to compare with how much of South Europe you score in Genomik's test in Standard Mode.

Edit:

Okay I guess Roman Pannonia is not fully Southern European but it surely has a strong South European component.

This is bullshit. IMO it's an admixture of Füzesabony among Trzciniec.

[~Elizabeth~]

I wonder if my "Tibetan Plateau" means I could be related to the Dalai Lama. :rolleyes:

[Fistora]

30% of Roman Iberia?!

Yeah, i wanted to show comparison between "Global" mode and specific ones that should be picked by people who have known origin. My East Europe mode shows result decently accurately

[ScandinavianCelt]

I personally would not rely on "Global" it basically overfits result which not always mean it is correct. if you know that most of your ancestors come from Western Europe just put Europe(north) > Northwest europe

The problem is I have some eastern, up to 30% or so on some calcs, so they may be struggling to differentiate me into two sides, and therefore they had lumped me more into the middle on the previous one. For example:

Target: brad.harappaworld.mrg.gedmatch
Distance: 0.7252% / 0.72521872 | R4P
53.4 Orcadian
31.5 Slovenian
12.8 Serbian
2.3 Greenlander_West

Target: brad.harappaworld.mrg.gedmatch
Distance: 2.1200% / 2.11997295 | ADC: 1x RC
69.5 North_European
30.5 Hungarian


Anyway, I was wrong, it is 41% Norwegian-- 31.4% Nordland, 9.6% Telemark-- on previous one, plus 11.6% Saaremaa Vikings, and 25.6% Insular.

This was the previous update showing I was more Viking.

https://i.postimg.cc/nhyxM66m/medieval-viking-index-illdna.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Now, updated, the 13% Germanic and 13.4% Baltic are all Vikings or Viking-Age. But whatever they did cut my Viking total in half and all of it shifted to Pict. I do look a bit Pictish, IMO.

Germanic breakdown (new one):

Scandinavian Viking (Saaremaa)
10.0%
Scandinavian Viking (Telemark)
2.0%
Scandinavian Viking (Nordland)
1.0%

So for whatever reason the Norwegian shifted to Scotland. I imagine if I upload my Ancestry data it would put me even more Celtic than my merged file, as 23andMe pulls my plot genetically about 10% more eastern.

My IllDNA PCA plot has not changed.

I wonder if the calcs are screwed up because of a missing piece, such as Jewish? I don't think they incorporate Jewish into that Global calc, but maybe they do?

My Jewish Middle Ages shows me over 12% Erfurt Jew, and my Germanic jumps back up to 55% and Insular back to 25%:

https://i.postimg.cc/ZRw9pbPn/jewish-ma.jpg (https://postimg.cc/bD2NjjBf)

[Peterski]

Cass do you remember a service called DNA Land? If yes, what did you score there?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282677-DNA-Land-fresh-thread

The highest South European (mostly Bałkan) score that I saw in a Pole on DNA Land was 40% for someone from Podkarpackie.

[cass]

Cass do you remember a service called DNA Land? If yes, what did you score there?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282677-DNA-Land-fresh-thread

The highest South European (mostly Bałkan) score that I saw in a Pole on DNA Land was 40% for someone from Podkarpackie.

I don't know this at all.

You are looking for unnecessary sensation.
https://i.ibb.co/Q6yxV5J/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-2017-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/rZDXhWQ)

Nothing else is needed to prepare a Pole. I'm not talking about exceptions.

[Peterski]

^^^
4.290 is not a good fit. Something relevant might be missing from the model.

[cass]

^^^
4.290 is not a good fit. Something relevant might be missing from the model.

You don't have better fits for such a long period.

If you have any doubts, I recommend contacting the authors of the report. https://iiif.elifesciences.org/lax:79714%2Felife-79714-fig2-figsupp2-v1.tif/full/,1500/0/default.jpg

Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age, despite high mobility
https://elifesciences.org/articles/79714

[Russki]

Yeah but changing from 41% Germanic Viking to only 1% is a rather radical shift.

I guess it has more to do with new G25 coordinates than with new samples.

Nothing wrong with new coordinates. Insular Celtic and Germanic percentages are mutually interchangeable.

[Feiichy]

I don't know this at all.

You are looking for unnecessary sensation.
https://i.ibb.co/Q6yxV5J/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-2017-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/rZDXhWQ)

Nothing else is needed to prepare a Pole. I'm not talking about exceptions.

Here is my result to compare. I think those results make sense.

https://i.imgur.com/94saaFf.png

[Feiichy]

...

I doubt you have any genuine eastern ancestry. Can you show me your updated K13 results?
He is right you should not use global unless race mixed or similar.

There is also north Euroe/Scandinavia option.

Global is just nonsense for most.

[Euro-American]

Nothing wrong with new coordinates. Insular Celtic and Germanic percentages are mutually interchangeable.

Insular "Celtic" and Northern Germanic are clearly part of the same cluster due CWC.

[Feiichy]

I really like the new coords and how they updated samples and website layout.

It made us south Slavs more southern European and bit more Turkic which I think is more realistic.
What I don't like is that West Balkan layout doesn't work for northern Croats due to lack of Germanic references they need.

For my north Croat family friend sample I use Hungarian and north Slav group which also doesn't fit perfectly because it contains Caucasus and Volga references northern Croats do not need (unless they have some Hungarian ancestry, I guess).

[Dušan]

Great model for me. It gives me +90% of my ethnicity and small traces of northern admixture, in very good distance. :)

https://i.imgur.com/xQr0WXo.png

[ScandinavianCelt]

I doubt you have any genuine eastern ancestry. Can you show me your updated K13 results?
He is right you should not use global unless race mixed or similar.

There is also north Euroe/Scandinavia option.

Global is just nonsense for most.


Which data set is updated? Regional? Global? Original? Or do you mean results for the regular K13 calc on Gedmatch?

[cass]

Here is my result to compare. I think those results make sense.

https://i.imgur.com/94saaFf.png

This is completely expected, the main discriminating trigger is native WHG, or rather SHG in Late Neolithic populations. You don't have Yamnaya at all, only CW?

[Dušan]

Great model for me. It gives me +90% of my ethnicity and small traces of northern admixture, in very good distance. :)

https://i.imgur.com/xQr0WXo.png

This one even better - closer distance and less northern and eastern admixture.

https://i.imgur.com/v6R1n3L.png

[ScandinavianCelt]

I doubt you have any genuine eastern ancestry. Can you show me your updated K13 results?
He is right you should not use global unless race mixed or similar.

There is also north Euroe/Scandinavia option.

Global is just nonsense for most.


Doing the North Euro Scandinavian option:

Distance: 2.079

99.4% Viking
.6% Saami

It doesn't make sense for me to pick that.

If I select North Euro Northwest my results did not update and look more spread out, but it is only NW Europe:

Distance: 1.048

40.4% Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
34.6% Germanic (AD 700–1000)
25% France (AD 130–1400)

The Global option gives the best distance:

Distance: .411

The results of Global are much better as it includes the Baltic/eastern.

[Feiichy]

Doing the North Euro Scandinavian option:

Distance: 2.079

99.4% Viking
.6% Saami

It doesn't make sense for me to pick that.

If I select North Euro Northwest my results did not update and look more spread out, but it is only NW Europe:

Distance: 1.048

40.4% Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
34.6% Germanic (AD 700–1000)
25% France (AD 130–1400)

The Global option gives the best distance:

Distance: .411

The results of Global are much better as it includes the Baltic/eastern.

0.411 distance is ridiculous overfit.

Your NW Euro results look fine with super tight fit/distance.

No reason to use global for sonebody with British, French and Swedish ancestry.

[Feiichy]

This is completely expected, the main discriminating trigger is native WHG, or rather SHG in Late Neolithic populations. You don't have Yamnaya at all, only CW?

Yup. NoYamnaya. this is no.2, but that's odd

Model #2

Genetic Fit: 3.748

Sintashta Culture
61.83%

Cucuteni-Trypillia Culture
38.17%

[Live The Magic]

Such radical changes are weird.

How much does this test cost?

Too much for what they provide.

[cass]

Yup. NoYamnaya. this is no.2, but that's odd

Model #2

Genetic Fit: 3.748

Sintashta Culture
61.83%

Cucuteni-Trypillia Culture
38.17%

:thumb001:

This just shows how imprecise their model is.

https://i.ibb.co/g38pZZ9/Zrzut-ekranu-24-1-2025-111521-lab-illustrativedna-com.jpg (https://ibb.co/zrgYVVx)

[ScandinavianCelt]

0.411 distance is ridiculous overfit.

Your NW Euro results look fine with super tight fit/distance.

No reason to use global for sonebody with British, French and Swedish ancestry.

This is what the new Ill-dna coords give me with new spreadsheet:

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 0.7674% / 0.00767378
68.4 Irish
15.4 Ukrainian_Ternopil
5.8 Norwegian
3.8 Italian_Liguria
2.4 Kaitag_Dagestan
0.8 Greenlander_West
0.8 GujaratiA
0.8 Papuan
0.6 Breton
0.4 Lithuanian_North_Zemaitija
0.4 Mbuti_Congo
0.4 Spanish_Aragon

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 0.9716% / 0.00971590 | R5P
72.8 Irish
18.4 Ukrainian_Ternopil
3.2 Puerto_Rican
2.8 Italian_Liguria
2.8 GujaratiA


Ukrainian Ternopil is considered Eastern, right?

I don't like how the G25 does not line up with their website breakdown info.

If I put into G25 just new Irish, German, French samples, it doesn't match the website, the French disappears:

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 1.4853% / 0.01485327
50.2 German
49.8 Irish

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 1.4853% / 0.01485327 | ADC: 2x RC
50.2 German
49.8 Irish

If I add all the northern samples, along with French & German:


Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 1.2630% / 0.01263000
48.6 Irish
21.6 French_Grand_Est
13.8 French_Bourgogne-Franche-Comte
9.0 Finnish_East
4.4 Finnish_North
1.0 French_Provence
1.0 German
0.6 Finnish_Southwest


If I add some eastern: Austria, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Russia:


Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 1.1870% / 0.01186980
66.6 Irish
10.8 French_Bourgogne-Franche-Comte
9.0 Bulgarian
6.2 Russian_Leshukonsky
4.6 Russian_Ryazan
2.2 French_Grand_Est
0.6 Ukrainian_Ternopil

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 1.1980% / 0.01198006 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.0 Irish
10.6 Bulgarian
7.6 French_Bourgogne-Franche-Comte
7.4 Russian_Leshukonsky
3.4 Hungarian


As you can see, Eastern shows up.

And look if I use just 23andMe data:

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_23andme
Distance: 1.8710% / 0.01871023 | ADC: 0.5x RC
47.8 Irish
39.0 Austrian
13.2 Russian_Krasnoborsky

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_23andme
Distance: 1.7969% / 0.01796872 | ADC: 0.25x RC
69.0 Irish
15.8 Bulgarian
12.2 Russian_Vologda
3.0 Russian_Ryazan

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_23andme
Distance: 1.7939% / 0.01793876
67.0 Irish
17.6 Bulgarian
6.8 Finnish_East
4.4 Russian_Ryazan
4.2 Russian_Krasnoborsky

----------------------

lastly, 23andMe data on their website on GLOBAL:

Genetic fit: 1.058 (Very close)

41.6% Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
30.8% France (AD 130–1400)
7.6% Slavic (AD 540–1270)
6.8% Baltic (AD 900–1050)
5.6% Volga (AD 200–400)
2.4% Byzantine Anatolia (AD 500–1100)
2.4% Khwarazm and Transoxiana (100 BC–AD 950)
1.8% Swat Valley (300 BC–AD 1350)
.8% Papuan (400–200 BC)
.2% Indian Subcontinent (AD 690–990)

[cass]

This is what the new Ill-dna coords give me with new spreadsheet:

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 0.7674% / 0.00767378
68.4 Irish
15.4 Ukrainian_Ternopil
5.8 Norwegian
3.8 Italian_Liguria
2.4 Kaitag_Dagestan
0.8 Greenlander_West
0.8 GujaratiA
0.8 Papuan
0.6 Breton
0.4 Lithuanian_North_Zemaitija
0.4 Mbuti_Congo
0.4 Spanish_Aragon

Target: SC_NewDeepModernScaled_Official_Merged
Distance: 0.9716% / 0.00971590 | R5P
72.8 Irish
18.4 Ukrainian_Ternopil
3.2 Puerto_Rican
2.8 Italian_Liguria
2.8 GujaratiA


Ukrainian Ternopil is considered Eastern, right?



Distance to: Slovak
0.02121100 Ukrainian_Ternopil
0.02152735 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02242303 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02348117 Ukrainian_Kropyvnytskyi
0.02562480 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
0.02598054 Ukrainian_Pontic
0.02600017 Ukrainian_Cherkasy
0.02674951 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02770427 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02835209 Ukrainian
0.02869015 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03023971 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03048202 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03234023 Ukrainian_Poltava
0.03504719 Ukrainian_Kiev
0.03579309 Ukrainian_Kharkiv
0.03623100 Ukrainian_Zaporizhzhia
0.03670369 Ukrainian_Crimea
0.03685933 Ukrainian_Donetsk
0.04411600 Ukrainian_Dnipro_o
0.05119407 Ukrainian_Volyn


Distance to: Ukrainian_Ternopil
0.02121100 Slovak
0.02853405 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02889723 Ukrainian_Kropyvnytskyi
0.02944963 Ukrainian_Cherkasy
0.03003225 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03040254 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_o
0.03155083 Polish_Wielkopolska
0.03189257 Czech
0.03192145 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
0.03233987 Polish
0.03353352 Ukrainian_Pontic
0.03363381 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige_Trentino_o
0.03371671 Hungarian
0.03448754 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03463806 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03483572 Ukrainian
0.03487001 Croat
0.03511354 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03517655 Russian_Belgorod
0.03525994 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03581619 Cossack_Ukrainian_Zaporizhzhia
0.03669559 Slovene
0.03670220 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03687524 Croat_Kajkavian
0.03692912 Ukrainian_Chernihiv


I don't think so. Their genetically closest population is Slovaks. Probably due to the former 60% share of Poles.

[ScandinavianCelt]

I doubt you have any genuine eastern ancestry. Can you show me your updated K13 results?
He is right you should not use global unless race mixed or similar.

There is also north Euroe/Scandinavia option.

Global is just nonsense for most.

Not sure what you mean by "genuine eastern ancestry". Eight (8) of my 22 chromosomes plot in the east with K36 GPS. I don't think I'd be plotting anywhere eastern if I didn't have some "genuine" eastern, right?

Chromosomes #5, 6, 9, 13, 14, 15, 21, & 22:


https://i.postimg.cc/Kz7wr7Zf/chr13-gps-mrg-czech.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7G6Kq2JJ)

https://i.postimg.cc/t4fKXCS3/chr14-gps-mrg-BULGaria.jpg (https://postimg.cc/3kXS17HN)

https://i.postimg.cc/8c13yFcS/chr15-k36-mrg-gps-hungary.jpg (https://postimg.cc/LYbN58jC)

https://i.postimg.cc/WzXyx2qJ/chr21-k36-b-gps-westernrussia.jpg (https://postimg.cc/n99TDfkH)

https://i.postimg.cc/L4TGJVQ6/chr22-k36-mrg-gps-UKRAINE.jpg (https://postimg.cc/0rzV37qL)

https://i.postimg.cc/4xmCkh54/chr5-k36-mrg-NWPoland-gps.jpg (https://postimg.cc/758tShdj)

https://i.postimg.cc/xdzWqDhW/chr6-k36-mrg-gps-northpoland.jpg (https://postimg.cc/8FTyn31H)

https://i.postimg.cc/pTM3Fcty/chr9-k36-mrg-gps-hungary.jpg (https://postimg.cc/p9k0NZrt)

[RyoHazuki]

It changed a bit of my wog side. Gained some more Iberian and bit more Jew, lost most of my Italian and some French, gained Armenian, shifted a couple percent of Germanic and Celtic.

136857

[ScandinavianCelt]

It changed a bit of my wog side. Gained some more Iberian and bit more Jew, lost most of my Italian and some French, gained Armenian, shifted a couple percent of Germanic and Celtic.

136857

Did you get that result with the Jewish calc? I think those who have Jewish of some sort should use that as it seems to re-balance mine-- both Sephardic test and Ashkenazi test show Erfurt for me at 12% and 12.2% respectively. AND the Viking/Germanic jumps back up to a dominant Viking admixture for me at 54.8%.

My Sephardic calc shows this, broken down:

Germanic 54.8%
Nordland Viking 46.4%
Estonian Viking 8.4%
Insular_Celt 24.4%
Roman_Britain 24.4%
European Jew 12%
Erfurt Jew 12%
France 6%
Slavic 2.8%
Kievan Rus 2.8%

[djipon]

I get somewhat big difference between my Ancestry RAW and SUPERKIT (Ancestry+MyHeritage) now... Before they were almost identical, with 0,2-05 difference in some percentages.

Ancestry RAW

https://i.postimg.cc/Vky2bSdD/image.png

SUPERKIT (Ancestry+MyHeritage)

https://i.postimg.cc/WzgC9jyM/image.png

[majevica]

Good they added tons of Ancients in the DIY section

Fit: 1.388

Gaul (Pannonian Basin/Bohemia) 59,6%
Hungary_IA_LaTene.AG 46.8%
Czechia_IA_LaTene.AG 12.8%

Pannonian Slav (Avar Period) AV2.AG 25.0%

Etiuni 15.4%
Armenia_Noratus_EIA.AG 10.0%
Armenia_Sarukhan_EIA.AG 5.4%

[RyoHazuki]

Did you get that result with the Jewish calc? I think those who have Jewish of some sort should use that as it seems to re-balance mine-- both Sephardic test and Ashkenazi test show Erfurt for me at 12% and 12.2% respectively. AND the Viking/Germanic jumps back up to a dominant Viking admixture for me at 54.8%.

My Sephardic calc shows this, broken down:

Germanic 54.8%
Nordland Viking 46.4%
Estonian Viking 8.4%
Insular_Celt 24.4%
Roman_Britain 24.4%
European Jew 12%
Erfurt Jew 12%
France 6%
Slavic 2.8%
Kievan Rus 2.8%

Jewish calc result, ashkenazi and sephardic are identical

1.295 (Very close)
Germanic (AD 700–1000)
60.6%
Iberian (AD 300–1200)
14.4%
Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
8.6%
France (AD 130–1400)
8.0%
European Jew (AD 1160–1400)
7.6%
Slavic (AD 540–1270)
0.8%

[Impaler]

Father's results. Very mixed!

Genetic fit: 1.781 (Very close)

Roman Anatolia (100 BC–AD 700)
20.2%
Slavic (AD 540–1100)
15.8%
Roman Levant (BC 50–AD 700)
14.4%
Indian Subcontinent (AD 690–990)
10.6%
Germanic (AD 100–630)
9.8%
Baltic (AD 260–540)
9.0%
Khwarazm and Transoxiana (100 BC–AD 950)
7.2%
Armenia (BC 100–AD 300)
4.4%
Lazica
3.6%
Roman Britain (AD 100–400)
3.4%
Papuan (400–200 BC)
1.0%
Amur River (AD 620–670)
0.6%

[R1b-L51]

it seems accurate

https://i.postimg.cc/vHp1JxKL/Screenshot-2025-01-25-at-02-59-27-ILLUSTRATIVE-DNA.png (https://postimg.cc/w7QTJMg7)

Genetic fit: 1.117 (Very close)

Iberian (AD 300–1200)
79.2%

Germanic (AD 700–1000)
13.6%

North African (AD 580–1160)
7.2%

[ScandinavianCelt]

Can someone tell me why I'm not getting 12% Erfurt Jewish on any G25 calcs, but Illustrative DNA is? Seems it would be appropriate to apply that to my admixture if it is actually there. I know I showed smaller amounts of Jewish on different calcs, but 12%-12.2% is quite a lot. Is it reliable information? The other components seem accurate, but how did that Jewish get to me? From Germany to Sweden? I don't know.

[R1b-L51]

Can someone tell me why I'm not getting 12% Erfurt Jewish on any G25 calcs, but Illustrative DNA is? Seems it would be appropriate to apply that to my admixture if it is actually there. I know I showed smaller amounts of Jewish on different calcs, but 12%-12.2% is quite a lot. Is it reliable information? The other components seem accurate, but how did that Jewish get to me? From Germany to Sweden? I don't know.

Scandinavian Celtic , I don't know you very well but you seem intelligent and sharp.

I don't want to offend you, but I find it difficult to believe that there is a Central European jewish genetics that goes beyond investing in buying shares in 23andme, tellmegen and now illustrativeDNA of several elitist slavic-caucasians who have decided to call themselves Jews.

If we use common sense we can deduce (in my humble opinion, or maybe not, I don't know), that there is no such Central European genetics, in fact I would strongly bet that they would not even have any semitic markers.

It is still surprising that this supposed blood of neo-jews is only present in germans, poles and nordics, but curiously it is not found in palestinians (former jewish semites now converted to Islam).

In short, I highly doubt that you have any jewish blood, but the Khazarians love to claim Attila's caucasian blood as if he were of jewish origin.

[R1b-L51]

I have a hard time taking this seriously when it sprinkles Papuan around so liberally for both of us.

I think I noticed a slight change as my Germanic went down from 33% to 32.x percent etc..

https://i.postimg.cc/wjFmCpqX/Screenshot-20250125-212035.png

https://i.postimg.cc/gjvwN9t6/Screenshot-20250125-212059.png

Knowing the genetic history of Ireland/Scottia including its genetic origins in northwest Iberia, or the roman contribution... for me it seems legit

[Grace O'Malley]

Knowing the genetic history of Ireland/Scottia including its genetic origins in northwest Iberia, or the roman contribution... for me it seems legit

Brian Boru is American. Also Irish and Scots do not have their genetic origins in Northwest Iberia and do not have any contributions from Romans. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Davystayn(English) says I look like a dark Scottish type and there were French Huguenots in Britain/Ireland and Germans in Ulster.

Ilustrativedna is rubbish : it has my number 1 closest population as Orcadian and second closest as mainland Scottish but my PCA is between British and Dutch.

My father's first name is Gordon which is pretty damn Scottish.

There is no point making deductions on incorrect information. Wouldn't you agree?

[Grace O'Malley]

I am really getting tired of all this amateur DNA shit like GedMatch and G25/ilustrativedna even AncestryDNA had me as significantly Irish with a genetic community in Ireland.

Yes you have Irish ancestry but you aren't of just Irish and Scottish ancestry. Someone who isn't aware of this will make inaccurate deductions about what you get because of not having all the information. Americans could logically have some Native American and SSA for example. You would need to look at all your ancestries to make any sort of conclusions about why you might get certain populations.

[Grace O'Malley]

Let us come back to reality here. GEDMATCH is rubbish except for WOGS and eastern Europeans. G25 has major problems as of now Davidski and illustrativeDNA can't agree on how to fix them. Creoda tried some G25 models on here and said "G25 is going to G25" as it was inaccurate for him. Creoda has stated that livingdna is the most accurate for him.

My livingDNA :

https://i.postimg.cc/25n732D4/livingdna.png

^welcome back to reality no SSA or amerindian and no amateur bullshit. G25 is a fad and a delusion.

I'm just pointing out that you need to state what your heritage is when wondering why you get the results you do otherwise people might come to some inaccurate conclusions like R1b-L51 did. You did get a small amount of SSA on Ancestry. With the updates do you still have this?

[ScandinavianCelt]

I am really getting tired of all this amateur DNA shit like GedMatch and G25/ilustrativedna even AncestryDNA had me as significantly Irish with a genetic community in Ireland.

What do you get on the Jewish calc for Middle Ages, using the Europe (Jewish) and then Ashkenazi setting?

What do others get on this setting as well? Why am I showing 12.2-12% on Ashkenazi-Sephardic if I have no Jewish background from the Middle Ages?

FYI, I only get one matched sample, and it shows to be 75% Sephardic and 25% Greek_Laconia on a 2-way modeling.

I will highlight the piece they give me from the samples they used:

Distance to: SC_Official_AVE_Scaled
0.13187489 DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897
0.13309260 DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736
0.13570706 DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867
0.13714075 England_MA_Norwich:SB606
0.14233313 England_MA_Norwich:SB671
0.14704209 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861
0.14716009 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903
0.14737968 England_MA_Norwich:SB605
0.14824633 England_MA_Norwich:SB604A
0.14918835 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864
0.14954300 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851
0.14959335 England_MA_Norwich:SB696
0.15134698 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741
0.15246713 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737
0.15309059 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870
0.15338298 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865
0.15582069 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852
0.15750252 England_MA_Norwich:SB676
0.15867735 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863
0.15885048 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739

Also, on DNAGenics "Shared Modern Origins" calc, I show 13.83% Sephardic, but it plots it having gone into Eastern Europe.

[Dušan]

What do you get on the Jewish calc for Middle Ages, using the Europe (Jewish) and then Ashkenazi setting?

What do others get on this setting as well? Why am I showing 12.2-12% on Ashkenazi-Sephardic if I have no Jewish background from the Middle Ages?



I got over quarter, and in extremely close distance lol

https://i.imgur.com/4j0h0et.png

[Grace O'Malley]

What do you get on the Jewish calc for Middle Ages, using the Europe (Jewish) and then Ashkenazi setting?

What do others get on this setting as well? Why am I showing 12.2-12% on Ashkenazi-Sephardic if I have no Jewish background from the Middle Ages?

FYI, I only get one matched sample, and it shows to be 75% Sephardic and 25% Greek_Laconia on a 2-way modeling.

I will highlight the piece they give me from the samples they used:

Distance to: SC_Official_AVE_Scaled
0.13187489 DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897
0.13309260 DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736
0.13570706 DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867
0.13714075 England_MA_Norwich:SB606
0.14233313 England_MA_Norwich:SB671
0.14704209 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861
0.14716009 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903
0.14737968 England_MA_Norwich:SB605
0.14824633 England_MA_Norwich:SB604A
0.14918835 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864
0.14954300 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851
0.14959335 England_MA_Norwich:SB696
0.15134698 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741
0.15246713 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737
0.15309059 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870
0.15338298 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865
0.15582069 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852
0.15750252 England_MA_Norwich:SB676
0.15867735 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863
0.15885048 DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739

Also, on DNAGenics "Shared Modern Origins" calc, I show 13.83% Sephardic, but it plots it having gone into Eastern Europe.

https://i.postimg.cc/cCqtZxCk/Screenshot-2025-01-26-194720.png

[ScandinavianCelt]

These are the samples they use if you want to check your distances or run some calcs:

DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861,0.103579,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.051357,0.006463,-0.017012,0.008695,-0.000462,0.006954,0.017677,0.011042,-0.006894,0.002379,-0.013762,-0.005836,0.009414,0.008345,-0.001014,-0.005154,0.002251,-0.005989,0.004451,0.001602,-0.00253,0.002515
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863,0.093335,0.132019,-0.020742,-0.064277,0.011079,-0.016455,-0.00423,-0.001846,0.01268,0.024602,0.007632,-0.003447,0.005203,-0.004542,-0.007465,-0.003713,-0.003129,-0.002914,-0.004902,-0.005378,-0.006239,-0.014838,-0.003574,-0.001687,-0.006586
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864,0.094473,0.151314,-0.019233,-0.052972,0.010463,-0.014502,-0.00188,-0.001615,0.018612,0.024784,0.005684,-3e-04,0.003271,0.003853,0.002714,0.001193,-0.01369,0.003421,0.003645,-0.012881,0.00262,0.002597,-0.002711,0.006266,-0.003113
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865,0.092197,0.142174,-0.014331,-0.059755,0.020619,-0.026774,-0.00611,-0.000923,0.01268,0.02041,0.00406,-0.000599,0.00446,0.003441,0.002036,-0.007027,-0.011474,0.004307,0.000126,-0.012506,-0.002745,-0.003957,0.008134,-0.005422,-0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867,0.093335,0.13405,-0.002263,-0.049096,0.014772,-0.018686,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.011249,0.016948,0.008119,-0.001649,0.006987,0.000275,-0.003936,0.001193,0.001565,-0.000887,-0.004777,0.001626,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.007641,0.007953,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870,0.094473,0.148267,-0.01697,-0.057494,0.008001,-0.024542,-0.00282,-0.000692,0.019839,0.008018,0.005034,0.004946,0.016 204,-0.004679,-0.002036,0.007027,0.006389,-0.000887,-0.004902,-0.014882,-0.00025,0.002102,-0.008258,0.006989,0.003353
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736,0.092197,0.139128,0.001131,-0.047804,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00141,0.001846,0.00859,0.018041,0.00568 4,0.002398,0.010555,-0.000138,0.006922,0.008884,0.01708,0.004181,0,-0.004252,-0.000499,0.004451,-0.00037,-0.002048,-0.008263
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737,0.08992,0.147252,-0.017725,-0.048773,0.008617,-0.028726,-0.00517,0.001385,0.013908,0.020228,0.00341,-0.001649,0.008176,0.007844,-0.012215,-0.0179,-0.017732,-0.002407,-0.000754,0.006878,-0.000873,-0.001113,0.005916,-0.002048,0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739,0.08992,0.144205,-0.018102,-0.063631,0.01508,-0.03012,0.00235,-0.006923,0.007567,0.01713,0.001624,0.001349,0.0099 6,-0.001927,-0.002172,-0.00305,-0.008214,0.000887,-0.01169,0.001251,0.000998,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.008194,-0.000838
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741,0.101303,0.145221,-0.017348,-0.053941,0.011387,-0.020638,0.00752,0.020999,0.033951,0.021504,0.0038 97,0.007194,0.005203,-0.00289,-0.007193,0.001458,0.014081,0.002154,-0.005908,0.003377,-0.009733,0.005812,-0.002465,0.025305,-0.009221
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851,0.097888,0.141159,-0.015839,-0.056848,0.011079,-0.01255,-0.00235,-0.009923,0.001841,0.016037,0.013153,0,0.006838,0.0 03716,-0.005429,-0.000265,-0.013299,-0.006588,-0.004525,-0.002001,-0.004617,-0.004328,-0.003204,-0.004458,0.002275
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852,0.103579,0.148267,-0.016593,-0.062662,0.005232,-0.022032,-0.001175,-0.018461,0.010431,0.022597,-0.001624,0.003747,0.001784,0.001789,-0.008686,0.002121,0.002477,0.004054,-0.009679,-0.004752,-0.00262,-0.018548,0.006779,0.012652,0.007185
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897,0.09675,0.142174,-0.003017,-0.039406,0.005232,-0.012271,0.013396,0.006231,0.005113,0.013121,0.000 812,-0.001049,0.000595,0.012937,-0.001629,0.001061,-0.021774,0.003294,0.005279,-0.014007,0.001373,-0.011871,0.0053,-0.006025,-0.006347
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903,0.103579,0.146236,-0.021496,-0.051034,0.004001,-0.015897,0.000235,-0.003692,0.005318,0.024966,0.002111,-0.009292,-0.000595,-0.002752,-0.010179,0.000398,-0.002217,0.003674,-0.002388,0.002876,-0.00549,-0.00371,0.002711,0.000843,0.000958

England_MA_Norwich:SB604A,0.08992,0.144205,-0.021496,-0.049419,0.010156,-0.011992,-0.00376,-0.000462,0.02127,0.025878,-0.000812,-0.002098,0.004608,-0.002752,0.000543,-0.003845,-0.011865,0.001267,0.001131,-0.006253,-0.002121,-0.00507,-0.006409,-0.004097,-0.002395
England_MA_Norwich:SB605,0.087644,0.148267,-0.015462,-0.05168,0.015387,-0.02259,-0.00329,0.004615,0.010226,0.019499,0.002761,0.0003 ,0.000297,-0.000826,-0.008415,0.001061,0.006258,-0.003167,0.001383,0.001501,-0.006988,-0.000371,-0.001849,0.000843,0.00467
England_MA_Norwich:SB606,0.095611,0.132019,-0.00528,-0.047804,0.023081,-0.02761,-0.011986,0.013615,0.005727,0.019499,0.001299,0.006 894,-0.01219,0.001789,-0.002172,0.005038,0.005607,0.007475,0.007542,-0.005002,0.000499,0.000742,0.001479,-0.00012,0.002874
England_MA_Norwich:SB671,0.091058,0.135065,-0.009428,-0.052003,0.028621,-0.025937,-0.002115,0.003231,0.003068,0.01877,-0.002761,-0.001349,0.005946,0.000826,0.004207,-0.000398,0.012517,0.008108,0.004651,-0.004127,0.001872,0.001113,-0.002588,-0.007712,0.002395
England_MA_Norwich:SB676,0.086506,0.148267,-0.018856,-0.061693,0.005847,-0.017291,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.017794,0.015126,0.002436,0.001199,0.002 676,0.000413,-0.000679,-0.011138,-0.011343,-0.001267,0.001257,-0.004502,0.001872,0.001113,-0.008011,0.000361,-0.005628
England_MA_Norwich:SB696,0.079676,0.149283,-0.014331,-0.050065,0.018773,-0.020638,-0.00376,0.012461,0.019839,0.022051,0.012179,0.0010 49,0.007582,-0.010184,-0.008279,0.00053,0.000261,-0.009882,-0.005405,-0.00025,-0.004866,-0.001237,0.002835,0.011929,-0.005868

[R1b-L51]

Brian Boru is American. Also Irish and Scots do not have their genetic origins in Northwest Iberia and do not have any contributions from Romans. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)


You know perfectly well that this is not the case, another thing is that you are not an original Gaelic and you come from Viking or Saxon invasions, but the original Irish come from the Iberian northwest, and I am not just saying this because of the legends like the sons of Breogan, but simply because of the numerous studies that prove it.

Scientists have discovered the British are descended from a tribe of Spanish fishermen. DNA analysis has found the Celts — Britain's indigenous population — have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to a tribe of Iberians from the coastal regions of Spain who crossed the Bay of Biscay almost 6,000 years ago.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/ancient-britons-come-mainly-from-spain-7182292.html

In Origins of the British (2006), Stephen Oppenheimer states (pages 375 and 378):

"By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory..."

"...75-95% of British Isles (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the British Isles have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples..."

https://isogg.org/wiki/The_Origins_of_the_British


As for denying that the UK was a Roman province, it is something that does not allow discussion either, it is simply history, it would be like denying the Berber and Roman blood in the Iberian Peninsula.

[R1b-L51]

It is not legit as it has my number one closest population as Orcadian and second as mainland Scottish. That is not the problem though. The problem is the modern has me as this :

https://i.postimg.cc/gjqJ3VrV/Screenshot-20250125-215705.png

You guys can bray about proxy populations all you want but there is no way I am Icelandic, Papuan, and Spanish. Sequencing.com has a genetic analysis that has me as mostly Irish/British with the rest French/German with a small amount of Eastern European, from the German, that is what I call accurate.


Scientists have discovered the British are descended from a tribe of Spanish fishermen. DNA analysis has found the Celts — Britain's indigenous population — have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to a tribe of Iberians from the coastal regions of Spain who crossed the Bay of Biscay almost 6,000 years ago.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/ancient-britons-come-mainly-from-spain-7182292.html

In Origins of the British (2006), Stephen Oppenheimer states (pages 375 and 378):

"By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory..."

"...75-95% of British Isles (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the British Isles have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples..."

https://isogg.org/wiki/The_Origins_of_the_British

[Geba]

No change, ultra Slavic

https://i.ibb.co/VWtnC6N/142901.png

[R1b-L51]

I got over quarter, and in extremely close distance lol

https://i.imgur.com/4j0h0et.png

This simply happens to all members including me because the algorithm forces a race that does not exist called Jew by substituting Caucasian for that term.
It's just stupid

136904

[R1b-L51]

Let us come back to reality here. GEDMATCH is rubbish except for WOGS and eastern Europeans. G25 has major problems as of now Davidski and illustrativeDNA can't agree on how to fix them. Creoda tried some G25 models on here and said "G25 is going to G25" as it was inaccurate for him. Creoda has stated that livingdna is the most accurate for him.

My livingDNA :

https://i.postimg.cc/25n732D4/livingdna.png

^welcome back to reality no SSA or amerindian and no amateur bullshit. G25 is a fad and a delusion.

It seems like a delirium to you because you don't understand where everything comes from before. If I told you that proto-Nordic people existed even in the Canary Islands during the ice age, you wouldn't believe it, but the Iberian Peninsula and even the Canary Islands were a subterfuge during the Ice Age and those populations were those who later repopulated northern Europe.

136911136912

Friar Espinosa gives a physical description of the Guanches:

These people (those from the southern band) are somewhat tan and dark in color, either because they bring this color from generation, now because the land is somewhat warm and the sun burns them, because they walk almost naked, as they did. But those from the Northern band were white, and the women were beautiful and blonde and had pretty hair.

After modern anthropological studies, the Guanches are usually grouped into two types according to cranial typology: chromanoid, with a wide and robust face and elongated and narrow skull, and Mediterranean, with tall and delicate faces with short skulls.

Fregel et al. 2009a extracted 30 samples of Y-DNA from Guanches of the Canary Islands. These belonged to the paternal haplogroups E1a*, (3.33%), E1b1b1a* (23.33%), E1b1b1b* (26.67%), I* (6.67%), J1* (16.67%), K*, P* (3.33%), and R1b1b2 (10.00%). E1a*, E1b1b1a* and E1b1b1b* are common lineages among Berbers, and their high frequency among the Guanches were considered evidence that they were migrants from North Africa. R1b1b2 and I* are very common in lineages in Europe, and their moderate frequency among the examined Guanche males was suggested to have been a result of prehistoric gene flow from Europe into the region across the Mediterranean.

[Grace O'Malley]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)


You know perfectly well that this is not the case, another thing is that you are not an original Gaelic and you come from Viking or Saxon invasions, but the original Irish come from the Iberian northwest, and I am not just saying this because of the legends like the sons of Breogan, but simply because of the numerous studies that prove it.

Scientists have discovered the British are descended from a tribe of Spanish fishermen. DNA analysis has found the Celts — Britain's indigenous population — have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to a tribe of Iberians from the coastal regions of Spain who crossed the Bay of Biscay almost 6,000 years ago.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/ancient-britons-come-mainly-from-spain-7182292.html

In Origins of the British (2006), Stephen Oppenheimer states (pages 375 and 378):

"By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory..."

"...75-95% of British Isles (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the British Isles have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples..."

https://isogg.org/wiki/The_Origins_of_the_British


As for denying that the UK was a Roman province, it is something that does not allow discussion either, it is simply history, it would be like denying the Berber and Roman blood in the Iberian Peninsula.

No evidence I'm not fully Gaelic or as Gaelic as any Irish person. All my ancestry is Irish and all my ancestors are born in Ireland. I'd be no different than any other Irish person.

There are plenty of dna studies on the Irish. There is a great dna paper by Lara Cassidy looking at ancient genomes in Ireland going back to the hunter gatherers and no Irish came from Northwest Spain. If the Irish came from Northwest Spain (which we know they didn't) then all the people that cluster in NW Europe came from Northwest Spain as well but we know they didn't.

Not every population came from Spain. If you using logic without even looking at dna studies populations from Northwest Spain cannot account for the proportions of Steppe, Farmer and HG that the Irish have. Anyway this Spanish stuff has been debunked years ago. Don't be using old and debunked studies for your claim.

This is from the most prominent geneticist in Ireland Prof. Dan Bradley.


Population geneticist, Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin carried out two genetic studies, to debunk the myth of the black irish, and he found little to no trace of Spanish in Irish DNA.

https://www.irishstar.com/culture/nostalgia/black-irish-history-meaning-origin-31633428

[Dušan]

No change, ultra Slavic

https://i.ibb.co/VWtnC6N/142901.png

Try Jewish mode. There is no Balkan component.

[Dušan]

This simply happens to all members including me because the algorithm forces a race that does not exist called Jew by substituting Caucasian for that term.
It's just stupid

136904

They are similar to south Italian or Maltese.

[R1b-L51]

No evidence I'm not fully Gaelic or as Gaelic as any Irish person. All my ancestry is Irish and all my ancestors are born in Ireland. I'd be no different than any other Irish person.

There are plenty of dna studies on the Irish. There is a great dna paper by Lara Cassidy looking at ancient genomes in Ireland going back to the hunter gatherers and no Irish came from Northwest Spain. If the Irish came from Northwest Spain (which we know they didn't) then all the people that cluster in NW Europe came from Northwest Spain as well but we know they didn't.

Not every population came from Spain. If you using logic without even looking at dna studies populations from Northwest Spain cannot account for the proportions of Steppe, Farmer and HG that the Irish have. Anyway this Spanish stuff has been debunked years ago. Don't be using old and debunked studies for your claim.

This is from the most prominent geneticist in Ireland Prof. Dan Bradley.



https://www.irishstar.com/culture/nostalgia/black-irish-history-meaning-origin-31633428

I will only tell you that from the Iberian Peninsula you can see the British Isles on a summer day.

The hunter-gatherers of Ireland are later Nordic contributions.

My God, you just made 4 centuries of Roman province of Britain disappear...

Do you really believe and deceive yourself that the Irish do not have any Mediterranean contribution?

You make disappear 4 centuries of Roman presence, and thousands of years of maritime exchange between Britain, French Brittany and Galician Brittany.

[cass]

Try Jewish mode. There is no Balkan component.

I don't have it, but I could have it. But the Etruscans appeared in the Sepharad mode. ;)

Genetic fit: 9.519 (Distant)
avatar
Italic and Etruscan (900–200 BC)
94.8%
avatar
Xiongnu (150–1 BC)
5.2%

[R1b-L51]

Try Jewish mode. There is no Balkan component.


Exactly, if during Covid there was no flu that tells me that they simply called the flu Covid.
If during the Jewish analysis there are no Balkan components, it is because they call the Balkan Jewish.

It is about building hypotheses and as long as they fit they can be correct.

Furthermore, my common sense tells me that such a small diaspora population cannot have that much influence on other populations.

What I can confirm is that Ashkenazim are not Semites (therefore they are only Europeans whose religion is Jewish, but they are not genetically Jewish), and I can confirm that, for example, the CEO of 23andme is Jewish.

This is a Nazi forum and you have to call a spade a spade (if you don't understand my humor it's something else)

[Grace O'Malley]

I will only tell you that from the Iberian Peninsula you can see the British Isles on a summer day.

The hunter-gatherers of Ireland are later Nordic contributions.

My God, you just made 4 centuries of Roman province of Britain disappear...

Do you really believe and deceive yourself that the Irish do not have any Mediterranean contribution?

You make disappear 4 centuries of Roman presence, and thousands of years of maritime exchange between Britain, French Brittany and Galician Brittany.

The Irish have Farmer ancestry like all Europeans and Ireland did not have any Roman presence. Anyway this stuff has been debunked years ago and has been thoroughly discussed on here. Who wants to go over old and disproven theories that were debunked with genetics years ago now. The studies you quoted are all from the early 2000s before they were even aware of the Steppe migrations. Also the Oppenheimer thing was just on R1b because he thought it hid out in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge but of course he was wrong. Even then the autosomal genetic distance from the Irish and Spanish was known. Sorry Amigo but the Irish did not come from Spain.

[Dušan]

What I can confirm is that Ashkenazim are not Semites (therefore they are only Europeans whose religion is Jewish, but they are not genetically Jewish), and I can confirm that, for example, the CEO of 23andme is Jewish.



Well, according to results, they have significiant Levantine ancestry (cca 35-45%).

[Dušan]

These are the samples they use if you want to check your distances or run some calcs:

DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861,0.103579,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.051357,0.006463,-0.017012,0.008695,-0.000462,0.006954,0.017677,0.011042,-0.006894,0.002379,-0.013762,-0.005836,0.009414,0.008345,-0.001014,-0.005154,0.002251,-0.005989,0.004451,0.001602,-0.00253,0.002515
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863,0.093335,0.132019,-0.020742,-0.064277,0.011079,-0.016455,-0.00423,-0.001846,0.01268,0.024602,0.007632,-0.003447,0.005203,-0.004542,-0.007465,-0.003713,-0.003129,-0.002914,-0.004902,-0.005378,-0.006239,-0.014838,-0.003574,-0.001687,-0.006586
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864,0.094473,0.151314,-0.019233,-0.052972,0.010463,-0.014502,-0.00188,-0.001615,0.018612,0.024784,0.005684,-3e-04,0.003271,0.003853,0.002714,0.001193,-0.01369,0.003421,0.003645,-0.012881,0.00262,0.002597,-0.002711,0.006266,-0.003113
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865,0.092197,0.142174,-0.014331,-0.059755,0.020619,-0.026774,-0.00611,-0.000923,0.01268,0.02041,0.00406,-0.000599,0.00446,0.003441,0.002036,-0.007027,-0.011474,0.004307,0.000126,-0.012506,-0.002745,-0.003957,0.008134,-0.005422,-0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867,0.093335,0.13405,-0.002263,-0.049096,0.014772,-0.018686,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.011249,0.016948,0.008119,-0.001649,0.006987,0.000275,-0.003936,0.001193,0.001565,-0.000887,-0.004777,0.001626,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.007641,0.007953,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870,0.094473,0.148267,-0.01697,-0.057494,0.008001,-0.024542,-0.00282,-0.000692,0.019839,0.008018,0.005034,0.004946,0.016 204,-0.004679,-0.002036,0.007027,0.006389,-0.000887,-0.004902,-0.014882,-0.00025,0.002102,-0.008258,0.006989,0.003353
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736,0.092197,0.139128,0.001131,-0.047804,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00141,0.001846,0.00859,0.018041,0.00568 4,0.002398,0.010555,-0.000138,0.006922,0.008884,0.01708,0.004181,0,-0.004252,-0.000499,0.004451,-0.00037,-0.002048,-0.008263
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737,0.08992,0.147252,-0.017725,-0.048773,0.008617,-0.028726,-0.00517,0.001385,0.013908,0.020228,0.00341,-0.001649,0.008176,0.007844,-0.012215,-0.0179,-0.017732,-0.002407,-0.000754,0.006878,-0.000873,-0.001113,0.005916,-0.002048,0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739,0.08992,0.144205,-0.018102,-0.063631,0.01508,-0.03012,0.00235,-0.006923,0.007567,0.01713,0.001624,0.001349,0.0099 6,-0.001927,-0.002172,-0.00305,-0.008214,0.000887,-0.01169,0.001251,0.000998,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.008194,-0.000838
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741,0.101303,0.145221,-0.017348,-0.053941,0.011387,-0.020638,0.00752,0.020999,0.033951,0.021504,0.0038 97,0.007194,0.005203,-0.00289,-0.007193,0.001458,0.014081,0.002154,-0.005908,0.003377,-0.009733,0.005812,-0.002465,0.025305,-0.009221
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851,0.097888,0.141159,-0.015839,-0.056848,0.011079,-0.01255,-0.00235,-0.009923,0.001841,0.016037,0.013153,0,0.006838,0.0 03716,-0.005429,-0.000265,-0.013299,-0.006588,-0.004525,-0.002001,-0.004617,-0.004328,-0.003204,-0.004458,0.002275
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852,0.103579,0.148267,-0.016593,-0.062662,0.005232,-0.022032,-0.001175,-0.018461,0.010431,0.022597,-0.001624,0.003747,0.001784,0.001789,-0.008686,0.002121,0.002477,0.004054,-0.009679,-0.004752,-0.00262,-0.018548,0.006779,0.012652,0.007185
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897,0.09675,0.142174,-0.003017,-0.039406,0.005232,-0.012271,0.013396,0.006231,0.005113,0.013121,0.000 812,-0.001049,0.000595,0.012937,-0.001629,0.001061,-0.021774,0.003294,0.005279,-0.014007,0.001373,-0.011871,0.0053,-0.006025,-0.006347
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903,0.103579,0.146236,-0.021496,-0.051034,0.004001,-0.015897,0.000235,-0.003692,0.005318,0.024966,0.002111,-0.009292,-0.000595,-0.002752,-0.010179,0.000398,-0.002217,0.003674,-0.002388,0.002876,-0.00549,-0.00371,0.002711,0.000843,0.000958

England_MA_Norwich:SB604A,0.08992,0.144205,-0.021496,-0.049419,0.010156,-0.011992,-0.00376,-0.000462,0.02127,0.025878,-0.000812,-0.002098,0.004608,-0.002752,0.000543,-0.003845,-0.011865,0.001267,0.001131,-0.006253,-0.002121,-0.00507,-0.006409,-0.004097,-0.002395
England_MA_Norwich:SB605,0.087644,0.148267,-0.015462,-0.05168,0.015387,-0.02259,-0.00329,0.004615,0.010226,0.019499,0.002761,0.0003 ,0.000297,-0.000826,-0.008415,0.001061,0.006258,-0.003167,0.001383,0.001501,-0.006988,-0.000371,-0.001849,0.000843,0.00467
England_MA_Norwich:SB606,0.095611,0.132019,-0.00528,-0.047804,0.023081,-0.02761,-0.011986,0.013615,0.005727,0.019499,0.001299,0.006 894,-0.01219,0.001789,-0.002172,0.005038,0.005607,0.007475,0.007542,-0.005002,0.000499,0.000742,0.001479,-0.00012,0.002874
England_MA_Norwich:SB671,0.091058,0.135065,-0.009428,-0.052003,0.028621,-0.025937,-0.002115,0.003231,0.003068,0.01877,-0.002761,-0.001349,0.005946,0.000826,0.004207,-0.000398,0.012517,0.008108,0.004651,-0.004127,0.001872,0.001113,-0.002588,-0.007712,0.002395
England_MA_Norwich:SB676,0.086506,0.148267,-0.018856,-0.061693,0.005847,-0.017291,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.017794,0.015126,0.002436,0.001199,0.002 676,0.000413,-0.000679,-0.011138,-0.011343,-0.001267,0.001257,-0.004502,0.001872,0.001113,-0.008011,0.000361,-0.005628
England_MA_Norwich:SB696,0.079676,0.149283,-0.014331,-0.050065,0.018773,-0.020638,-0.00376,0.012461,0.019839,0.022051,0.012179,0.0010 49,0.007582,-0.010184,-0.008279,0.00053,0.000261,-0.009882,-0.005405,-0.00025,-0.004866,-0.001237,0.002835,0.011929,-0.005868

Closest populations - excluded from source Jewish averages:


Distance to: England_MA_Norwich:SB696
0.03395174 Maltese
0.04296830 Italian_Calabria
0.04323481 Sicilian_East
0.04503236 Sicilian_West
0.04578525 Italian_Campania

Distance to: England_MA_Norwich:SB676
0.03745009 Maltese
0.03812613 Italian_Calabria
0.03900832 Sicilian_East
0.03991177 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.04096512 Greek_Dodecanese

Distance to: England_MA_Norwich:SB671
0.03553960 Italian_Calabria
0.03752254 Maltese
0.03844844 Italian_Campania
0.03899882 Sicilian_East
0.03905696 Sicilian_West

Distance to: England_MA_Norwich:SB606
0.03465642 Sicilian_East
0.03473849 Maltese
0.03480144 Italian_Calabria
0.03625897 Italian_Campania
0.03672400 Italian_Basilicata

Distance to: England_MA_Norwich:SB605
0.02126787 Maltese
0.02513346 Italian_Calabria
0.02854902 Italian_Campania
0.02953199 Sicilian_East
0.03115695 Greek_Deep_Mani

Distance to: England_MA_Norwich:SB604A
0.03292993 Maltese
0.03478167 Sicilian_West
0.03508708 Italian_Calabria
0.03567579 Sicilian_East
0.03771696 Italian_Campania

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903
0.02373855 Greek_Dodecanese
0.02539968 Turkish_Crete
0.02542818 Italian_Calabria
0.02591776 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.02616560 Italian_Campania

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897
0.03995035 Sicilian_West
0.04047781 Greek_Crete_Heraklion
0.04173884 Sicilian_East
0.04257102 Maltese
0.04304193 Greek_Crete

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852
0.03936869 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.03966417 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04025574 Italian_Calabria
0.04140572 Greek_Kos
0.04144775 Cypriot

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851
0.03283396 Maltese
0.03406307 Turkish_Crete
0.03438500 Italian_Calabria
0.03454688 Sicilian_East
0.03455936 Greek_Crete

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741
0.05265638 Italian_Calabria
0.05298099 Greek_Crete_Lasithi
0.05333240 Italian_Campania
0.05338039 Maltese
0.05477793 Italian_Basilicata

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739
0.03914422 Maltese
0.04070646 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.04111670 Italian_Calabria
0.04174016 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04244838 Cypriot

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737
0.03853100 Maltese
0.03971362 Sicilian_East
0.04362624 Italian_Calabria
0.04398682 Turkish_Crete
0.04400276 Greek_Deep_Mani

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736
0.03373614 Maltese
0.03441442 Italian_Calabria
0.03516732 Sicilian_West
0.03750013 Italian_Campania
0.03815317 Italian_Basilicata

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870
0.04013293 Maltese
0.04078367 Italian_Calabria
0.04345886 Italian_Campania
0.04384099 Greek_Crete
0.04421432 Greek_Crete_Lasithi

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867
0.02169177 Maltese
0.03133973 Italian_Calabria
0.03218132 Sicilian_East
0.03220898 Italian_Campania
0.03342288 Sicilian_West

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865
0.03417592 Maltese
0.03637478 Italian_Calabria
0.03679569 Sicilian_East
0.03942348 Italian_Campania
0.04015458 Sicilian_West

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864
0.03274814 Sicilian_East
0.03411183 Maltese
0.03428155 Italian_Calabria
0.03564068 Italian_Campania
0.03594660 Sicilian_West

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863
0.03767008 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
0.03810524 Italian_Calabria
0.03828587 Maltese
0.03880757 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04093116 Cypriot

Distance to: DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861
0.03150548 Greek_Kos
0.03222761 Italian_Calabria
0.03261661 Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos
0.03278433 Italian_Campania
0.03300458 Greek_Dodecanese

[R1b-L51]

The Irish have Farmer ancestry like all Europeans and Ireland did not have any Roman presence. Anyway this stuff has been debunked years ago and has been thoroughly discussed on here. Who wants to go over old and disproven theories that were debunked with genetics years ago now. The studies you quoted are all from the early 2000s before they were even aware of the Steppe migrations. Also the Oppenheimer thing was just on R1b because he thought it hid out in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge but of course he was wrong. Even then the autosomal genetic distance from the Irish and Spanish was known. Sorry Amigo but the Irish did not come from Spain.

A case very similar to that maintained by many Spanish, who claim not to have african blood, because according to them the north was never conquered by the Berbers, which is true, but later during the rebellion of the Alpujarras they were expelled from the south and welcomed in the northern kingdoms, giving rise to the mixture.
Believing that the Irish have not mixed with Romanized English and have remained isolated for centuries does not make any sense. Today all irish have part of english ancestry and vice versa (of course within which there may be Roman blood).

As for whether the Irish come from Iberia or not, I don't care, but that's what historiography and at least a few studies say about it.

It is not true that these theories have stopped being supported since the early 2000s, for example genetic studies from the University of Granada in Spain support otherwise, the news is from 2024.

https://www.eleconomista.es/actualidad/noticias/13017489/10/24/la-genetica-espanola-se-desmorona-compartimos-mas-adn-con-un-noruego-que-con-un-norteafricano.html

Another important load in Spanish genetics is Italian and Irish, the latter representing up to 17% in the western regions of the peninsula.

[R1b-L51]

Well, according to results, they have significiant Levantine ancestry (cca 35-45%).

They say, but I don't see Soros or Satanyahu very different from Viktor Orban, but you know if you have the money to buy 23andme, you have the money to invent a race even if the supposed Semitic markers in those latitudes don't match.

[Grace O'Malley]

A case very similar to that maintained by many Spanish, who claim not to have african blood, because according to them the north was never conquered by the Berbers, which is true, but later during the rebellion of the Alpujarras they were expelled from the south and welcomed in the northern kingdoms, giving rise to the mixture.
Believing that the Irish have not mixed with Romanized English and have remained isolated for centuries does not make any sense. Today all irish have part of english ancestry and vice versa (of course within which there may be Roman blood).

As for whether the Irish come from Iberia or not, I don't care, but that's what historiography and at least a few studies say about it.

It is not true that these theories have stopped being supported since the early 2000s, for example genetic studies from the University of Granada in Spain support otherwise, the news is from 2024.

https://www.eleconomista.es/actualidad/noticias/13017489/10/24/la-genetica-espanola-se-desmorona-compartimos-mas-adn-con-un-noruego-que-con-un-norteafricano.html

Another important load in Spanish genetics is Italian and Irish, the latter representing up to 17% in the western regions of the peninsula.

Even the Brits have no trace of Roman dna despite being part of the Roman empire. This has nothing to do with denial. No one ever claimed the Irish have remained isolated for centuries but it's been fairly well established about the genetics. The only thing lacking is a later study which will come out on the late Bronze Age to the late Medieval period. There has also been numerous studies on the British and while the Spanish did get quite a bit of dna from the Romans the British didn't. It looks like any Roman presence must have been very small that they didn't leave much impact on the British gene pool. There are numerous dna studies done on the British now. Perhaps you could read them instead of rehashing old stuff. No one is denying that the British had some genetic impact on the Irish. You claiming the Irish came from Northern Spain however is not correct.

[Beowulf]

I don't see any significant change on my results to be honest.

[R1b-L51]

Even the Brits have no trace of Roman dna despite being part of the Roman empire. This has nothing to do with denial. No one ever claimed the Irish have remained isolated for centuries but it's been fairly well established about the genetics. The only thing lacking is a later study which will come out on the late Bronze Age to the late Medieval period. There has also been numerous studies on the British and while the Spanish did get quite a bit of dna from the Romans the British didn't. It looks like any Roman presence must have been very small that they didn't leave much impact on the British gene pool. There are numerous dna studies done on the British now. Perhaps you could read them instead of rehashing old stuff. No one is denying that the British had some genetic impact on the Irish. You claiming the Irish came from Northern Spain however is not correct.

Well, I do not agree, it is not a question of being right or not, there simply needs to be scientific unity, at the moment I have not found any peer-reviewed scientific article (the entire scientific community) that states that the Irish are not related to the Iberian (and an Iberian tells you this who is quite unusual and would not be from that Galician part).

DO YOU HAVE IT?

On the contrary, there are scientific articles that say the opposite.

You just have to look at the paternal haplogroups, which are the only ones that are indelible. Everyone knows that the R1B of Ireland were also in NW Iberia.

Perhaps it is the other way around and it is the Galicians who come from the Irish, in any case the relationship exists, it is obvious, it is evident and cannot be discussed, because I repeat the paternal haplogroups are indelible. You cannot focus on the tree and stop see the forest

https://i.postimg.cc/y8QKSYQG/chalcolithic-europe.png (https://postimg.cc/rDr3BcLG)

https://i.postimg.cc/GtCn1Bt4/Britonia6hcentury2-svg.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/k5LdfYdF/Haplogroup-R1b-L21-1.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Beowulf]

R-L21 originated in Central Europe among Bell Beaker people wich not only they expanded to Britain but also France and Iberia during the Bronze age...

Same can be said for DF27 wich had an exclusive fundational effect in Iberia, however, many local clades can be found in France, Britain and even scandinavia since the BRonze Age!

The following is from page 31 of 47 of archaeologist Völker Heyd's 2021 paper, "Yamnaya, Corded Wares, and Bell Beakers on the Move":


I would not be surprised if there will soon be visible Y-chromosome differences between the Lower and Upper Rhine. Within a few generations, at some point around 2500 BC, this radiation turned into a proper demic event. It would send Bell Beaker users, as descendants of local Single Grave Culture/Corded Ware users rich in steppe ancestry, on the move to regions further to the west, triggering the ‘Beakerisation’ of Britain and Ireland, and the Rückstrom to France and finally Iberia.

[R1b-L51]

Even the Brits have no trace of Roman dna despite being part of the Roman empire. This has nothing to do with denial. No one ever claimed the Irish have remained isolated for centuries but it's been fairly well established about the genetics. The only thing lacking is a later study which will come out on the late Bronze Age to the late Medieval period. There has also been numerous studies on the British and while the Spanish did get quite a bit of dna from the Romans the British didn't. It looks like any Roman presence must have been very small that they didn't leave much impact on the British gene pool. There are numerous dna studies done on the British now. Perhaps you could read them instead of rehashing old stuff. No one is denying that the British had some genetic impact on the Irish. You claiming the Irish came from Northern Spain however is not correct.

Che Guevara (1928-1967), Argentine Marxist revolutionary and important figure of the Cuban Revolution, forensic identification of his skeletal remains revealed that he belonged to the haplogroup R1b-L21.

It is difficult to look at Sean Connery and not see a typical Galician with his sea bream eyes

[ScandinavianCelt]

A case very similar to that maintained by many Spanish, who claim not to have african blood, because according to them the north was never conquered by the Berbers, which is true, but later during the rebellion of the Alpujarras they were expelled from the south and welcomed in the northern kingdoms, giving rise to the mixture.
Believing that the Irish have not mixed with Romanized English and have remained isolated for centuries does not make any sense. Today all irish have part of english ancestry and vice versa (of course within which there may be Roman blood).

As for whether the Irish come from Iberia or not, I don't care, but that's what historiography and at least a few studies say about it.

It is not true that these theories have stopped being supported since the early 2000s, for example genetic studies from the University of Granada in Spain support otherwise, the news is from 2024.

https://www.eleconomista.es/actualidad/noticias/13017489/10/24/la-genetica-espanola-se-desmorona-compartimos-mas-adn-con-un-noruego-que-con-un-norteafricano.html

Another important load in Spanish genetics is Italian and Irish, the latter representing up to 17% in the western regions of the peninsula.


https://i.postimg.cc/KjP47vjf/uk-admixture.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XBvV4WwB)

[R1b-L51]

https://i.postimg.cc/KjP47vjf/uk-admixture.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XBvV4WwB)

Thank you, I think it is decisive, many Irish are of the Atlantic Mediterranean type, which is still a mixture of Mediterranean and Keltid. On the other hand, the English, who initially would have been equal, have already been mixed with Anglo-Saxons and Normans.

At least that's what the historiography and basic genetics of paternal indelible haplogroups that I knew say.

The black irish are the traditional irish with dark hair even if they have red highlights, I would even say that they have a tanned complexion, Mel Gibson is much darker than me, in fact he reminds me of some Navarrese spanish people that I know.

[Grace O'Malley]

Che Guevara (1928-1967), Argentine Marxist revolutionary and important figure of the Cuban Revolution, forensic identification of his skeletal remains revealed that he belonged to the haplogroup R1b-L21.

It is difficult to look at Sean Connery and not see a typical Galician with his sea bream eyes

Che had that dna because his paternal side were from Galway. He was born Ernesto Guevara Lynch. His father had ancestry from Galway.

This is all easy to debunk. Irish are majorly descended from populations similar to Dutch Bell Beakers. The population has not changed that much since the Bronze Age. There has been British, Normans and Vikings since then but the biggest influence on the Irish are still those Bell Beakers.

[R1b-L51]

R-L21 originated in Central Europe among Bell Beaker people wich not only they expanded to Britain but also France and Iberia during the Bronze age...

Same can be said for DF27 wich had an exclusive fundational effect in Iberia, however, many local clades can be found in France, Britain and even scandinavia since the BRonze Age!

The following is from page 31 of 47 of archaeologist Völker Heyd's 2021 paper, "Yamnaya, Corded Wares, and Bell Beakers on the Move":



Then evidently the men from the North Sea who came to Ireland arrived in the northwest of the peninsula. It has always been said that they jumped from Galicia to Britain, not only because legends support it, but because they are simply ancient trade routes, and because the British Isles have always been visible from the peninsula itself.
Now, it could be the other way around, I don't deny it, and that the Irish are the founders of Iberia. I do not deny it, I simply affirm that there is a genetic relationship.

[Beowulf]

Then evidently the men from the North Sea who came to Ireland arrived in the northwest of the peninsula. It has always been said that they jumped from Galicia to Britain, not only because legends support it, but because they are simply ancient trade routes, and because the British Isles have always been visible from the peninsula itself.
Now, it could be the other way around, I don't deny it, and that the Irish are the founders of Iberia. I do not deny it, I simply affirm that there is a genetic relationship.


You missunderstood everything of my own post... :picard1:

[R1b-L51]

Che had that dna because his paternal side were from Galway. He was born Ernesto Guevara Lynch. His father had ancestry from Galway.

This is all easy to debunk. Irish are majorly descended from populations similar to Dutch Bell Beakers. The population has not changed that much since the Bronze Age. There has been British, Normans and Vikings since then but the biggest influence on the Irish are still those Bell Beakers.

So you believe in the difficult and improbable path, which is that those Bell Beakers separated and some arrived in Ireland and others in Biscay and Galicia.
but it could well be the easy way that is the short distance between the northern Spanish and Armoric coasts and the British Isles.
In any case, they are still distant relatives, or perhaps you are going to deny it.

[R1b-L51]

Che had that dna because his paternal side were from Galway. He was born Ernesto Guevara Lynch. His father had ancestry from Galway.

This is all easy to debunk. Irish are majorly descended from populations similar to Dutch Bell Beakers. The population has not changed that much since the Bronze Age. There has been British, Normans and Vikings since then but the biggest influence on the Irish are still those Bell Beakers.

In Spain the double surname is not for aesthetics, it is to indicate first the paternal surname and then the maternal one.
Ché is Guevara (Basque), and second Lynch (Ireland), it would be the first historical case in which the mother's mitochondrial DNA overlaps the male DNA of the paternal line.

CURIOUS CASE

[ScandinavianCelt]

Thank you, I think it is decisive, many Irish are of the Atlantic Mediterranean type, which is still a mixture of Mediterranean and Keltid. On the other hand, the English, who initially would have been equal, have already been mixed with Anglo-Saxons and Normans.

At least that's what the historiography and basic genetics of paternal indelible haplogroups that I knew say.

The black irish are the traditional irish with dark hair even if they have red highlights, I would even say that they have a tanned complexion, Mel Gibson is much darker than me, in fact he reminds me of some Navarrese spanish people that I know.

I've only ever seen Spanish men on this forum. Are there any Spanish women here?

[Beowulf]

I've only ever seen Spanish men on this forum. Are there any Spanish women here?

There was a couple of them wich aren't active anymore.

[Grace O'Malley]

Thank you, I think it is decisive, many Irish are of the Atlantic Mediterranean type, which is still a mixture of Mediterranean and Keltid. On the other hand, the English, who initially would have been equal, have already been mixed with Anglo-Saxons and Normans.

At least that's what the historiography and basic genetics of paternal indelible haplogroups that I knew say.

The black irish are the traditional irish with dark hair even if they have red highlights, I would even say that they have a tanned complexion, Mel Gibson is much darker than me, in fact he reminds me of some Navarrese spanish people that I know.

How are you getting that from that admixture run? That gives the Irish 20% Norwegian. It is from the Irish DNA Atlas and they didn't claim any input from the Spanish. It is an admixture run which is why you get populations like the Belgians and Germans who have not had input into the Irish. The geneticist Edmund Gilbert involved in that later revised the admixture using English. This is the result below.

https://i.postimg.cc/MH2gxs4w/pnas-1904761116fig03.jpg

The best way to look at who and what contributions have been made to populations is now to use ancient genomes and compare populations before and after. It is not going to give an accurate picture using admixture runs using modern populations.

There is also no such population in Ireland called the Black Irish. That's been debunked as well. There is no unique population like that. All Irish descend from the same ancestry and it's not the Spanish.

[Grace O'Malley]

So you believe in the difficult and improbable path, which is that those Bell Beakers separated and some arrived in Ireland and others in Biscay and Galicia.
but it could well be the easy way that is the short distance between the northern Spanish and Armoric coasts and the British Isles.
In any case, they are still distant relatives, or perhaps you are going to deny it.

The Beakers who came to Ireland are the same that came to Britain. They believe they are Dutch Bell Beakers who are an off shoot of Corded Ware. It's not what I believe. You need to read up more on this and you need to read a load of studies.

One of your own geneticists Iñigo Olalde was involved in this study. You really need to read this to get an understanding of the Bell Beakers. The Beakers that came to Britain and Ireland were all R1b-L21 and the ones that went to Iberia were all R1b-DF27. The ones that went to Britain and Ireland were also earlier. They are all Steppe Beakers but they appear to have went a different route and there also has to be a reason for why the ones that went to Britain and Ireland were all L21 and the ones that went to Iberia were DF27.

Read the study below as it will help you understand the topic better.

https://i.postimg.cc/CL1D4F53/Screenshot-2025-01-27-000931.png

Figure 2. Investigating the genetic makeup of Beaker Complex individuals. a, Proportion of Steppe-related ancestry (shown in black) in Beaker Complex-associated groups, computed with qpAdm under the model Steppe_EBA + Anatolia_N + WHG. The area of the pie is proportional to the number of individuals (shown inside the pie if more than one). See Supplementary Information, section 8 for mixture proportions and standard errors. b, f-statistics of the form f4(Mbuti, Test; Iberia_EN, LBK_EN) computed for European populations before the emergenceof the Beaker Complex. The statistic takes negative values if the Test shares more alleles with
Iberia_EN (positive values in the case of excess affinity with LBK_EN). Error bars represent ±1 standard errors. c, Testing different populations as a source for the Neolithic ancestry component in Beaker Complex individuals. The table shows the P-values (highlighted if >0.05) for the model: Steppe_EBA + Neolithic/Copper Age source population. BC, Beaker complex; E, Early; M, Middle; L, Late; N, Neolithic; CA, Copper Age; BA, Bronze Age; N_Iberia, Northern Iberia; C_Iberia, Central Iberia; SE_Iberia, Southeast Iberia; SW_Iberia, Southwest Iberia.

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10044127/1/Thomas_Bell_beaker_oct_dr3_io.pdf

[Grace O'Malley]

In Spain the double surname is not for aesthetics, it is to indicate first the paternal surname and then the maternal one.
Ché is Guevara (Basque), and second Lynch (Ireland), it would be the first historical case in which the mother's mitochondrial DNA overlaps the male DNA of the paternal line.

CURIOUS CASE

What are you meaning here? He would have mtdna from his mother and ydna from his father just like every other person.

[Beowulf]

What are you meaning here? He would have mtdna from his mother and ydna from his father just like every other person.

I did a quick research and there is no information about Guevara's Y-DNA results neither his autosomal.

[Grace O'Malley]

I did a quick research and there is no information about Guevara's Y-DNA results neither his autosomal.

He could even be R1b-M222. That wouldn't be surprising either. Anyway R1b-L51 should link if he has the info.

[Jingle Bell]

https://i.imgur.com/Ylf2n6v.png

Just terrible.

[ScandinavianCelt]

https://i.imgur.com/Ylf2n6v.png

Just terrible.

Seems those of us who have more mixed backgrounds don't plot into their system so easily. Try the various regions for yourself and see which one looks best. Please post if you find one.

[R1b-L51]

I did a quick research and there is no information about Guevara's Y-DNA results neither his autosomal.


I did a quick research and there is no information about Guevara's Y-DNA results neither his autosomal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-L21

I thought that the search was pretty simple...


Int J Legal Med

. 2000;113(2):98-101.
doi: 10.1007/pl00007716.
Forensic identification of skeletal remains from members of Ernesto Che Guevara's guerrillas in Bolivia based on DNA typing


R Lleonart 1 , E Riego, M V Saínz de la Peña, K Bacallao, F Amaro, M Santiesteban, M Blanco, H Currenti, A Puentes, F Rolo, L Herrera, J de la Fuente


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10741484/

[R1b-L51]

What are you meaning here? He would have mtdna from his mother and ydna from his father just like every other person.

What I want to say is very simple. Che Huevara is L21 through his Basque paternal line that comes from his grandfather Roberto Huevara, it can never ever be through his maternal line from grandmother Lynch

[Beowulf]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-L21

I thought that the search was pretty simple...


Int J Legal Med

. 2000;113(2):98-101.
doi: 10.1007/pl00007716.
Forensic identification of skeletal remains from members of Ernesto Che Guevara's guerrillas in Bolivia based on DNA typing


R Lleonart 1 , E Riego, M V Saínz de la Peña, K Bacallao, F Amaro, M Santiesteban, M Blanco, H Currenti, A Puentes, F Rolo, L Herrera, J de la Fuente


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10741484/


It says, Members from Guevara's guerrilas not that it's from Guevara exactly.


We report the positive identification of several members of the guerrillas led by Ernesto "Che" Guevara on the 1960 s in Bolivia by means of DNA fingerprinting. Successful DNA typing of both short tandem repeat loci and the hypervariable region of the human mitochondrial DNA was achieved after extracting total DNA from bones obtained from two burial sites. Given the size of the Cuban database for the STR allele frequencies, a conservative approach was followed to estimate the statistical significance of the genetic evidence. The estimated probabilities of paternity for the two cases in which the paternity logic was applied were higher than 99%. One case was analyzed using mitochondrial DNA and could not be excluded from the identity proposed by the forensic anthropology team. A fourth case was identified by exclusion, on the basis of the positive identification of the other remains, the historical and other anthropological evidence.

[R1b-L51]

The Beakers who came to Ireland are the same that came to Britain. They believe they are Dutch Bell Beakers who are an off shoot of Corded Ware. It's not what I believe. You need to read up more on this and you need to read a load of studies.

One of your own geneticists Iñigo Olalde was involved in this study. You really need to read this to get an understanding of the Bell Beakers. The Beakers that came to Britain and Ireland were all R1b-L21 and the ones that went to Iberia were all R1b-DF27. The ones that went to Britain and Ireland were also earlier. They are all Steppe Beakers but they appear to have went a different route and there also has to be a reason for why the ones that went to Britain and Ireland were all L21 and the ones that went to Iberia were DF27.

Read the study below as it will help you understand the topic better.

https://i.postimg.cc/CL1D4F53/Screenshot-2025-01-27-000931.png

Figure 2. Investigating the genetic makeup of Beaker Complex individuals. a, Proportion of Steppe-related ancestry (shown in black) in Beaker Complex-associated groups, computed with qpAdm under the model Steppe_EBA + Anatolia_N + WHG. The area of the pie is proportional to the number of individuals (shown inside the pie if more than one). See Supplementary Information, section 8 for mixture proportions and standard errors. b, f-statistics of the form f4(Mbuti, Test; Iberia_EN, LBK_EN) computed for European populations before the emergenceof the Beaker Complex. The statistic takes negative values if the Test shares more alleles with
Iberia_EN (positive values in the case of excess affinity with LBK_EN). Error bars represent ±1 standard errors. c, Testing different populations as a source for the Neolithic ancestry component in Beaker Complex individuals. The table shows the P-values (highlighted if >0.05) for the model: Steppe_EBA + Neolithic/Copper Age source population. BC, Beaker complex; E, Early; M, Middle; L, Late; N, Neolithic; CA, Copper Age; BA, Bronze Age; N_Iberia, Northern Iberia; C_Iberia, Central Iberia; SE_Iberia, Southeast Iberia; SW_Iberia, Southwest Iberia.

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10044127/1/Thomas_Bell_beaker_oct_dr3_io.pdf


They can't have been ALL, because in IBERIA there are at least 5 DIFFERENT TYPES OF R1B.

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/historia_genetica_de_iberia.shtml


https://i.postimg.cc/DwK71wTf/Iberia-maps.png (https://postimages.org/)


This is not debatable since some parts of IBERIA have a prevalence of L21 greater than 10%, therefore WHERE ARE ALL THE DF27? IT WILL BE SOME OR MOST.
NEVER ALL.

Common origin of Basques, Irish, Welsh and Scots before the Celts: According to the theory of Professor Stephen Oppenheimer of the University of Oxford, researcher David Goldstein of University College London and German linguist Theo Vennemann, both the inhabitants of Ireland and the of Great Britain (especially those of Wales and Scotland) would have originated in the Basque Country and their Basque ancestors would have traveled 16,000 years ago by land towards the north crossing Las Landes, Aquitaine and Brittany to the British Isles during the Ice Age,10 a time when sea level was lower than today and the current British Isles were linked by land to the European continent, which would make such migration possible.

The Codex Calixtinus, dated 1137, dedicates several pages to a striking description of the inhabitants of Navarre, whose customs it describes as "barbaric" and whom it considers descendants of the Scottish invaders.

Curiously, the pilgrim monk echoes theories that existed at the time about the origin of the Basques, which he places in Scotland. The summarized theory is that Julius Caesar brought Scots to "subdue the Hispanics", who were subsequently rejected by the Castilians "to the coastal mountains between Nájera, Pamplona and Baiona" where they dedicated themselves to killing all the males " whose women they kidnapped and in whom they fathered children who were later called Navarrese by their successors. From there he concludes that the Navarrese term "is equivalent to not true, that is, generated from a non-true lineage or from a non-legitimate lineage."

https://www.diariovasco.com/gipuzkoa/historia/primera-guia-turistica-describe-vascos-navarros-edad-media-20240914183553-nt.html

[R1b-L51]

It says, Members from Guevara's guerrilas not that it's from Guevara exactly.


We report the positive identification of several members of the guerrillas led by Ernesto "Che" Guevara on the 1960 s in Bolivia by means of DNA fingerprinting. Successful DNA typing of both short tandem repeat loci and the hypervariable region of the human mitochondrial DNA was achieved after extracting total DNA from bones obtained from two burial sites. Given the size of the Cuban database for the STR allele frequencies, a conservative approach was followed to estimate the statistical significance of the genetic evidence. The estimated probabilities of paternity for the two cases in which the paternity logic was applied were higher than 99%. One case was analyzed using mitochondrial DNA and could not be excluded from the identity proposed by the forensic anthropology team. A fourth case was identified by exclusion, on the basis of the positive identification of the other remains, the historical and other anthropological evidence.


There is a popular saying that says that WHEN THE PATH ENDS THE FOOL KEEPS ON


ALSO IN EUPEDIA

The forensic analysis of the skeletal remains of Che Guevara (1928-1967), the Argentine Marxist revolutionary and major figure of the Cuban Revolution, revealed that he belonged to haplogroup R1b-L21.


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[Grace O'Malley]

What I want to say is very simple. Che Huevara is L21 through his Basque paternal line that comes from his grandfather Roberto Huevara, it can never ever be through his maternal line from grandmother Lynch

Yes that is correct. The Lynch is from his father's mother's line so his ydna has nothing to do with his Irish ancestry.

[Beowulf]

There is a popular saying that says that WHEN THE PATH ENDS THE FOOL KEEPS ON


ALSO IN EUPEDIA

The forensic analysis of the skeletal remains of Che Guevara (1928-1967), the Argentine Marxist revolutionary and major figure of the Cuban Revolution, revealed that he belonged to haplogroup R1b-L21.


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml


By clicking on the link that allegedly shows "the source"

https://i.postimg.cc/jd4nVRCw/Captura-de-pantalla-2025-01-26-182504.png (https://postimages.org/)

It sends you to a Russian forum where you cannot acces, how can i confirm that it isn't related with the same study that i have shared??

" WHEN THE PATH ENDS THE FOOL KEEPS ON "

Really? You did had the need to insult me? This is sad.

[R1b-L51]

By clicking on the link that allegedly shows "the source"

https://i.postimg.cc/jd4nVRCw/Captura-de-pantalla-2025-01-26-182504.png (https://postimages.org/)

It sends you to a Russian forum where you cannot acces, how can i confirm that it isn't related with the same study that i have shared??

" WHEN THE PATH ENDS THE FOOL KEEPS ON "

Really? You did had the need to insult me? This is sad.

Everyone knows that Ché's guerrillas were Irish, not Galician Spaniards or Basques who arrived in Cuba, which can make us believe that in the north of Spain there are S21 lineages, there is no evidence except a few hundred thousand Basques and of Galicians..WHEN THE PATH ENDS

[Beowulf]

Everyone knows that Ché's guerrillas were Irish, not Galician Spaniards or Basques who arrived in Cuba, which can make us believe that in the north of Spain there are S21 lineages, there is no evidence except a few hundred thousand Basques and of Galicians..WHEN THE PATH ENDS


https://www.chebolivia.org/index.php/composicion-de-la-guerrilla/indice-biografico-de-los-guerrilleros

[R1b-L51]

Everyone knows that Ché's guerrillas were Irish, not Galician Spaniards or Basques who arrived in Cuba, which can make us believe that in the north of Spain there are S21 lineages, there is no evidence except a few hundred thousand Basques and of Galicians..WHEN THE PATH ENDS


https://www.chebolivia.org/index.php/composicion-de-la-guerrilla/indice-biografico-de-los-guerrilleros[/QUOTE]

Well, you see that the majority were Hispanics with Basque or Galician surnames (basically, the immigrants who went to the Caribbean were always Basques, Asturians or Galicians, while in Colombia and Venezuela they were Andalusians and Canarians, and in Mexico or Perú they were Extremadurans and Leonese, Brasil Portuguese...etc)

[Beowulf]

Well, you see that the majority were Hispanics with Basque or Galician surnames (basically, the immigrants who went to the Caribbean were always Basques, Asturians or Galicians, while in Colombia and Venezuela they were Andalusians and Canarians, and in Mexico or Perú they were Extremadurans and Leonese, Brasil Portuguese...etc)



Then why did you said that "everyone knows that che's guerrillas were irish" When their biographic index shows that it was mainly made by Bolivians, Cubans and Peruvians?

And saying that Cubans descend mainly from northern spaniards is a generalization specially knowning that many Canarians, Andalusians and Catalans have settled there aswell.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inmigraci%C3%B3n_espa%C3%B1ola_en_Cuba

[R1b-L51]

Then why did you said that "everyone knows that che's guerrillas were irish" When their biographic index shows that it was mainly made by Bolivians, Cubans and Peruvians?

And saying that Cubans descend mainly from northern spaniards is a generalization specially knowning that many Canarians, Andalusians and Catalans have settled there aswell.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inmigraci%C3%B3n_espa%C3%B1ola_en_Cuba

With all the more reason, L21 could only belong to Che and not the bones of the other guerrillas.

In any case, you don't ofend you but the fact that Che is L21 or not is the least important thing, the debate is whether there is a genetic relationship between the Irish, Scots and Gaels and the northerners of the peninsula and that is more than obvious because paternal ancestry.

Everything else is a diversion from the main debate

[Beowulf]

The following is from page 31 of 47 of archaeologist Völker Heyd's 2021 paper, "Yamnaya, Corded Wares, and Bell Beakers on the Move":


I would not be surprised if there will soon be visible Y-chromosome differences between the Lower and Upper Rhine. Within a few generations, at some point around 2500 BC, this radiation turned into a proper demic event. It would send Bell Beaker users, as descendants of local Single Grave Culture/Corded Ware users rich in steppe ancestry, on the move to regions further to the west, triggering the ‘Beakerisation’ of Britain and Ireland, and the Rückstrom to France and finally Iberia.

[Grace O'Malley]

I've found some info on Che Guevara's ydna. From this site it says he was R-Z290 which is the clade before L21. That looks fairly widespread around Europe looking at yfull.

https://blogs.dnagenics.com/haplogroups-of-famous-people/

Please note that R-Z290 is the same as R-S461.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S461/

https://nolanfamilies.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/R1b-L21-Descendant-Tree-1024x772.png

https://i.postimg.cc/GmRrvjc9/ydna-Z290.png

[R1b-L51]

The following is from page 31 of 47 of archaeologist Völker Heyd's 2021 paper, "Yamnaya, Corded Wares, and Bell Beakers on the Move":


I would not be surprised if there will soon be visible Y-chromosome differences between the Lower and Upper Rhine. Within a few generations, at some point around 2500 BC, this radiation turned into a proper demic event. It would send Bell Beaker users, as descendants of local Single Grave Culture/Corded Ware users rich in steppe ancestry, on the move to regions further to the west, triggering the ‘Beakerisation’ of Britain and Ireland, and the Rückstrom to France and finally Iberia.




Let's not rule out the Neolithic hypothesis anyway, not all the WHG comes from the BELL

Since 2014, other studies have refined the picture of interbreeding between EEF and WHG. In a 2017 analysis of 180 ancient DNA data sets from the Chalcolithic and Neolithic periods of Hungary, Germany and Spain, evidence of a prolonged period of interbreeding was found. Mixing took place regionally, from local hunter-gatherer populations, so that the populations of the three regions (Germany, Iberia and Hungary) were genetically distinguished at all stages of the Neolithic, with a gradually increasing proportion of ancestry WHG of agricultural populations over time. This suggests that after the initial expansion of early farmers, there were no further long-range migrations substantial enough to homogenize the agricultural population, and that farming and hunter-gathering populations existed side by side for many centuries. , with gradual admixture ongoing throughout the 5th century to the 4th millennium BC (rather than a single admixture event admixture at initial contact). Mixing rates vary geographically; At the end of the Neolithic, WHG ancestry in farmers in Hungary was around 10%, in Germany around 25%, and in Iberia up to 50%.

This theory suggests that these populations later repopulated from south to north.


https://i.postimg.cc/W4KDLqKm/Simplified-model-for-the-recent-demographic-history-of-Europeans.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jWHqy2RC)

[R1b-L51]

I've found some info on Che Guevara's ydna. From this site it says he was R-Z290 which is the clade before L21. That looks fairly widespread around Europe looking at yfull.

https://blogs.dnagenics.com/haplogroups-of-famous-people/

Please note that R-Z290 is the same as R-S461.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S461/

https://nolanfamilies.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/R1b-L21-Descendant-Tree-1024x772.png

https://i.postimg.cc/GmRrvjc9/ydna-Z290.png

Thank you, I'm just trying to be faithful to anthropology, we are in a continent called Europe with more or less differences between the different countries but at the end of the day Spain is more Celtic than France, for example.


https://i.postimg.cc/mh0qWwYf/Celtic-Europe.png (https://postimg.cc/mh0qWwYf)

https://i.postimg.cc/9z4SkSqY/Italo-Celtic-Europe.png (https://postimg.cc/9z4SkSqY)


To say otherwise would be a lie, and I insist that I say it, since apparently I am not a Celt.

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.5904% / 0.01590417
60.6 Mediterranean
22.0 Germanic
17.2 NearEast
0.2 Celtic

Distance to: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
0.04719265 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11104.SG
0.05104098 Mediterranean:Italy_Tuscany_Pisa_Etruscan:VOL001
0.05167122 Mediterranean:Spain_EBA_Mallorca:I4329
0.05427426 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11107.SG
0.05481115 Mediterranean:Italy_Tuscany_Grosseto_Etruscan:CSN0 08
0.05546624 Mediterranean:Italy_IA_Republic.SG:R473.SG
0.05761309 Mediterranean:Spain_NE_Iberia_BA:MIV001
0.05819889 Mediterranean:Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG:Log02.SG
0.05826233 Celtic:Czech_IA_LaTene:I14985
0.05877616 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11105.SG
0.05923186 Celtic:Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_BylanyA111
0.05951078 Celtic:Czech_IA_LaTene:I14984
0.05967987 Celtic:France_GrandEst_IA2:I20827
0.06027028 Mediterranean:Spain_BA.SG:esp005_noUDG.SG
0.06078343 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11102.SG
0.06151308 Mediterranean:Italy_Lazio_Viterbo_Etruscan:TAQ012
0.06218570 Mediterranean:Spain_EIA_Tartessian:I12171
0.06238432 Mediterranean:Spain_Formentera_MBA:I4420
0.06614101 Mediterranean:Italy_ReginaMargherita_BA.SG:GCP003. SG
0.06674287 Mediterranean:Spain_BA.SGir001_noUDG.SG
0.06715429 Mediterraneanortugal_MBA.SG:TV3831_noUDG.SG
0.06766939 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.06853168 Mediterranean:Spain_BA.SG:ATP9_noUDG.SG
0.06953368 Mediterranean:Spain_SE_CabezoRedondo_BA:CBR004
0.07204187 Celtic:England_MIA_LIA:I21310

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.5904% / 0.01590415 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.6 Mediterranean
22.0 Germanic
17.4 NearEast

[Geba]

Try Jewish mode. There is no Balkan component.

As far as I know I have no Jewish ancestry, could be in Middle Ages though ;)

Jewish mode:
https://i.ibb.co/dbVGwx0/Jewish.png

Jewish appears here and little Iberian too. Probably I am not as northeastern as Medieval Slavic...

Global mode:
https://i.ibb.co/Y2SMjMV/Global.png

1/4 Baltic appears out of nowhere, Balkan is back, Arabian, Sardinian and even Papuan, all southern components in small %. It is interesting that Illustrative DNA sees this southern side in me, while official DNA results from MyHeritage are 100% Eastern European. :bored:

[Grace O'Malley]

Thank you, I'm just trying to be faithful to anthropology, we are in a continent called Europe with more or less differences between the different countries but at the end of the day Spain is more Celtic than France, for example.


https://i.postimg.cc/mh0qWwYf/Celtic-Europe.png (https://postimg.cc/mh0qWwYf)

https://i.postimg.cc/9z4SkSqY/Italo-Celtic-Europe.png (https://postimg.cc/9z4SkSqY)


To say otherwise would be a lie, and I insist that I say it, since apparently I am not a Celt.

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.5904% / 0.01590417
60.6 Mediterranean
22.0 Germanic
17.2 NearEast
0.2 Celtic

Distance to: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
0.04719265 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11104.SG
0.05104098 Mediterranean:Italy_Tuscany_Pisa_Etruscan:VOL001
0.05167122 Mediterranean:Spain_EBA_Mallorca:I4329
0.05427426 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11107.SG
0.05481115 Mediterranean:Italy_Tuscany_Grosseto_Etruscan:CSN0 08
0.05546624 Mediterranean:Italy_IA_Republic.SG:R473.SG
0.05761309 Mediterranean:Spain_NE_Iberia_BA:MIV001
0.05819889 Mediterranean:Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG:Log02.SG
0.05826233 Celtic:Czech_IA_LaTene:I14985
0.05877616 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11105.SG
0.05923186 Celtic:Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_BylanyA111
0.05951078 Celtic:Czech_IA_LaTene:I14984
0.05967987 Celtic:France_GrandEst_IA2:I20827
0.06027028 Mediterranean:Spain_BA.SG:esp005_noUDG.SG
0.06078343 Mediterranean:Italy_PianSultano_BA.SG:R11102.SG
0.06151308 Mediterranean:Italy_Lazio_Viterbo_Etruscan:TAQ012
0.06218570 Mediterranean:Spain_EIA_Tartessian:I12171
0.06238432 Mediterranean:Spain_Formentera_MBA:I4420
0.06614101 Mediterranean:Italy_ReginaMargherita_BA.SG:GCP003. SG
0.06674287 Mediterranean:Spain_BA.SGir001_noUDG.SG
0.06715429 Mediterraneanortugal_MBA.SG:TV3831_noUDG.SG
0.06766939 Celtic:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.06853168 Mediterranean:Spain_BA.SG:ATP9_noUDG.SG
0.06953368 Mediterranean:Spain_SE_CabezoRedondo_BA:CBR004
0.07204187 Celtic:England_MIA_LIA:I21310

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.5904% / 0.01590415 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.6 Mediterranean
22.0 Germanic
17.4 NearEast

That's all ydna though and all R1b was spread with Bell Beakers. Celts were a later population.

[Athalafuns]

since apparently I am not a Celt

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.5904% / 0.01590417
60.6 Mediterranean
22.0 Germanic
17.2 NearEast
0.2 Celtic
Try my test, I honestly think it works. But you must post ADC - 0.5X and AGGREGATE NO so I can check your samples individually. You can also send me your coordinates privately and I will test you on the Celtic-Germanic version.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?391529-Discerning-Celtic


You should also try this test in conjunction, as it will tell you how much of your genes come from the Corded Ware Culture, making your previous percentages much more reliable.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?390764-Sunil-s-nightmare

[Dušan]

As far as I know I have no Jewish ancestry, could be in Middle Ages though ;)

Jewish mode:
https://i.ibb.co/dbVGwx0/Jewish.png

Jewish appears here and little Iberian too. Probably I am not as northeastern as Medieval Slavic...

Global mode:
https://i.ibb.co/Y2SMjMV/Global.png

1/4 Baltic appears out of nowhere, Balkan is back, Arabian, Sardinian and even Papuan, all southern components in small %. It is interesting that Illustrative DNA sees this southern side in me, while official DNA results from MyHeritage are 100% Eastern European. :bored:

Neither I, but got it, as it is similar to some Mediiterranean (Balkan Roman) population.

This is my global mode:

https://i.imgur.com/NyMsfN9.png

[R1b-L51]

Try my test, I honestly think it works. But you must post ADC - 0.5X and AGGREGATE NO so I can check your samples individually. You can also send me your coordinates privately and I will test you on the Celtic-Germanic version.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?391529-Discerning-Celtic


You should also try this test in conjunction, as it will tell you how much of your genes come from the Corded Ware Culture, making your previous percentages much more reliable.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?390764-Sunil-s-nightmare

Thank you very much for your offer, my coordinates are these, you can do whatever you want with it, countryman.


ROBERTOFERN_scaled,0.100164,0.140143,0.035449,-0.000323,0.041854,-0.005578,0.00282,0.002538,0.020861,0.030616,-0.00406,0.006894,-0.013528,-0.009221,0.008007,-0.005967,-0.006258,-0.000253,-0.011816,-0.002626,0.004742,-0.012118,-0.010599,-0.003253,0.001437

ROBERTOFERN,0.0088,0.0138,0.0094,-0.0001,0.0136,-0.002,0.0012,0.0011,0.0102,0.0168,-0.0025,0.0046,-0.0091,-0.0067,0.0059,-0.0045,-0.0048,-0.0001997,-0.0094,-0.0021,0.0038,-0.0098,-0.0086,-0.0027,0.0012

[Athalafuns]

Thank you very much for your offer, my coordinates are these, you can do whatever you want with it, countryman.
Luego cuando coja el ordenador le echo un vistazo :thumb001:

[R1b-L51]

Luego cuando coja el ordenador le echo un vistazo :thumb001:

Gracias muy amable, creo que la gente que no estamos ni en Portugal ni en Castilla necesitamos saber de una vez si somos vascos o celtas o andaluces.

[Jingle Bell]

Seems those of us who have more mixed backgrounds don't plot into their system so easily. Try the various regions for yourself and see which one looks best. Please post if you find one.

Sadly i tried a lot of them, none was good, even the modern one put me as 40% Portuguese + 11% Lebanese????
My g25 coords worked much better.

[ScandinavianCelt]

A few of the main Y-DNA pathways to Ireland & Scotland:

https://i.postimg.cc/1td0F9tf/basque-scottish.jpg (https://postimg.cc/R6cn5xwB)

https://i.postimg.cc/bYGWBr1V/irish-ydna1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/PNjSLt31)

https://i.postimg.cc/c6yQDXfW/isleofman-ydna.jpg (https://postimg.cc/SYd2RLZ1)

https://i.postimg.cc/VvbqB3r4/r-s775-insular-ydna.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gLmLGtK6)

[R1b-L51]

A few of the main Y-DNA pathways to Ireland & Scotland:

https://i.postimg.cc/1td0F9tf/basque-scottish.jpg (https://postimg.cc/R6cn5xwB)

The first image explains everything, simply the Biscayans and the Scotts are distant cousins, now we can only wonder how some Galicians and Asturians are also L21. Could they be simple Basques who came there? Or it is that there were contacts between Galician Britonia, French Brittany and Britannia.

[R1b-L51]

A few of the main Y-DNA pathways to Ireland & Scotland:

https://i.postimg.cc/1td0F9tf/basque-scottish.jpg (https://postimg.cc/R6cn5xwB)

CODEX CALIXTINUS:

He also remembers passing through the mountains of northern Navarre, where "the impious Navarrese and Basques used to not only rob pilgrims but also ride them like donkeys and kill them." Later he stops at physical descriptions: «The Navarrese and the Basques are very similar in terms of food, costumes and language, but the Basques are somewhat whiter-faced than the Navarrese. These are dressed in short black cloths up to the knees only, in the manner of the Scots, and wear footwear called albarcas, made of leather with hair, untanned, tied to the foot with straps, which only protect the sole of the foot. . , leaving the rest naked.

The author of the centenary text still has more to add about his bad experience: «They eat, drink and dress filthy. Well, the entire family of a Navarrese house, both the servant and the master, the servant as well as the lady, usually eat all the food mixed at the same time in a pot, not with a spoon, but with their hands, and they usually drink a glass If you saw them eating, you would take them for dogs or pigs eating. And if you heard them speak, they would remind you of the barking of dogs, for their language is completely barbaric.

[Gannicus]

I get assigned Balkan more since the update. Lost the ability to reduce to 5,4,3 populations

Medieval:

Genetic fit: 1.043 (Very close)

Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
55.2%
France (AD 130–1400)
27.4%
Germanic (AD 700–1000)
10.8%
Italian (AD 650–1450)
4.4%
Balkans (AD 500–1000)
2.2%

Late Antiquity:

Genetic fit: 1.159 (Very close)
avatar
Roman Britain (AD 100–400)
47.4%
Germanic (AD 100–630)
24.0%
Roman Illyria (AD 100–600)
12.4%
Pict (AD 300–500)
11.8%
Roman Iberia (AD 260–500)
2.8%
Roman Pannonia (AD 130–600)
1.6%

Iron Age:

Genetic fit: 1.725 (Very close)
Insular Celt (600 BC–AD 100)
78.4%
Germanic (AD 100–600)
12.6%
Greek (770–400 BC)
9.0%

Germanic is a bit low I think in some calcs. My guess based on what I've seen so far is a range of 15-20% Germanic. I guess the France average in Medieval is taking up some Celtic, Germanic, and mediterranean admix.

[ScandinavianCelt]

I get assigned Balkan more since the update. Lost the ability to reduce to 5,4,3 populations

Medieval:

Genetic fit: 1.043 (Very close)

Insular Celt (AD 100–1000)
55.2%
France (AD 130–1400)
27.4%
Germanic (AD 700–1000)
10.8%
Italian (AD 650–1450)
4.4%
Balkans (AD 500–1000)
2.2%

Late Antiquity:

Genetic fit: 1.159 (Very close)
avatar
Roman Britain (AD 100–400)
47.4%
Germanic (AD 100–630)
24.0%
Roman Illyria (AD 100–600)
12.4%
Pict (AD 300–500)
11.8%
Roman Iberia (AD 260–500)
2.8%
Roman Pannonia (AD 130–600)
1.6%

Iron Age:

Genetic fit: 1.725 (Very close)
Insular Celt (600 BC–AD 100)
78.4%
Germanic (AD 100–600)
12.6%
Greek (770–400 BC)
9.0%

Germanic is a bit low I think in some calcs. My guess based on what I've seen so far is a range of 15-20% Germanic. I guess the France average in Medieval is taking up some Celtic, Germanic, and mediterranean admix.

What do you show if you select Europe (East)+West/East-Slavic?

[Grace O'Malley]

The first image explains everything, simply the Biscayans and the Scotts are distant cousins, now we can only wonder how some Galicians and Asturians are also L21. Could they be simple Basques who came there? Or it is that there were contacts between Galician Britonia, French Brittany and Britannia.

Irish Bronze Age is as far away from Basque in regards to other European populations.

https://i.postimg.cc/2S3fnd3f/Screenshot-2025-01-27-113841.png


The most striking feature of the haplotype sharing by the Irish Bronze Age genome is its high median donation levels to Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations (Fig. 3). In regression with results from the other ancient genomes, these insular Celtic populations, and to a lesser degree the English, show an excess of sharing with Rathlin1, suggesting some level of local continuity at the edge of Europe persisting over 4,000 y. The Hungarian Bronze Age genome shows more affinity with central European populations. Interestingly, for both Bronze Age genomes, the modern Basque population displays outlying low-affinity scores compared with neighboring western European samples, supporting recent findings that suggest a continuity between the Basques and Iberian Chalcolithic groups (25).


Anyone versed in genetics knows that the Irish descend mostly from these Bronze Age populations and these Bronze Age Bell Beakers ancestry was from the Steppes. They picked up farmer ancestry but this was with Globular Amphora populations. It is why today Irish cluster in NW Europe. Irish are closer genetically to Polish than they are to Spanish. That the Irish descend from Spain has been thoroughly debunked with genetics. It is obvious anyway with looking at genetic distances and also just looking at a dna European cluster plot. If the Irish descend from Spain they would not plot where they do but would show some pull towards Spain. Just use some logic and don't ignore what is obvious.

[R1b-L51]

Irish Bronze Age is as far away from Basque in regards to other European populations.

https://i.postimg.cc/2S3fnd3f/Screenshot-2025-01-27-113841.png



Anyone versed in genetics knows that the Irish descend mostly from these Bronze Age populations and these Bronze Age Bell Beakers ancestry was from the Steppes. They picked up farmer ancestry but this was with Globular Amphora populations. It is why today Irish cluster in NW Europe. Irish are closer genetically to Polish than they are to Spanish. That the Irish descend from Spain has been thoroughly debunked with genetics. It is obvious anyway with looking at genetic distances and also just looking at a dna European cluster plot. If the Irish descend from Spain they would not plot where they do but would show some pull towards Spain. Just use some logic and don't ignore what is obvious.

I don't know what you're trying to prove, I've only said that the Biscayans (not the Basques) are distant cousins ​​of the Irish because they come from the Bell Beaker, nothing more.
I have not said that they arrived before or even at the same time, but they did arrive from the same place, and that is irrefutable.

And I have also reaffirmed myself through the Navarrese, against whom they later launched Gothic expeditions (and that's why there were only scots left in bizcaya), since they apparently had the same customs as the Scots.

And finally, I have asked myself where the L21 of Galicia, Asturias and Portugal comes from, could they be simple commercial exchanges with Britain and Armorica or could they be those Navarrese who moved?

Just so you know, Galician Britony happened in the 5th century of our Lord, not in the bronze or iron age... that also seems unlikely to you?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di%C3%B3cesis_de_Britonia

The territory of the old diocese of the Bretons—Britonia—occupied mainly the coastal strip of Mariña de Lugo to the Tierra Llana region, its influence reaching the coasts of the Eo-Navia region to the east, and Ferrol. by the west. Its ancient headquarters, known as Monasterio Máximo, was identified by some authors such as Díaz y Díaz with the medieval basilica of San Martín de Mondoñedo, where remains from the 5th-6th centuries AD are found. C. Changing headquarters and name on several occasions, the current Galician diocese of Mondoñedo is its historical successor.

The settlement of this wave of Breton emigrants and the creation of their own religious diocese represents the second largest settlement of a foreign people in Galician lands, after the Suebi.

Now that's a question you could answer for me, let's see if you can find the key (I can't)

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't know what you're trying to prove, I've only said that the Biscayans (not the Basques) are distant cousins ​​of the Irish because they come from the Bell Beaker, nothing more.
I have not said that they arrived before or even at the same time, but they did arrive from the same place, and that is irrefutable.

And I have also reaffirmed myself through the Navarrese, against whom they later launched Gothic expeditions (and that's why there were only scots left in bizcaya), since they apparently had the same customs as the Scots.

And finally, I have asked myself where the L21 of Galicia, Asturias and Portugal comes from, could they be simple commercial exchanges with Britain and Armorica or could they be those Navarrese who moved?

Just so you know, Galician Britony happened in the 5th century of our Lord, not in the bronze or iron age... that also seems unlikely to you?

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di%C3%B3cesis_de_Britonia

The territory of the old diocese of the Bretons—Britonia—occupied mainly the coastal strip of Mariña de Lugo to the Tierra Llana region, its influence reaching the coasts of the Eo-Navia region to the east, and Ferrol. by the west. Its ancient headquarters, known as Monasterio Máximo, was identified by some authors such as Díaz y Díaz with the medieval basilica of San Martín de Mondoñedo, where remains from the 5th-6th centuries AD are found. C. Changing headquarters and name on several occasions, the current Galician diocese of Mondoñedo is its historical successor.

The settlement of this wave of Breton emigrants and the creation of their own religious diocese represents the second largest settlement of a foreign people in Galician lands, after the Suebi.

Now that's a question you could answer for me, let's see if you can find the key (I can't)

Most of Europe has some Bell Beaker and Corded Ware just like they have Farmer and HG. Populations that are closest genetically share the most genetics. L21 was spread with Bell Beakers and the most likely reason why Spain would have some of this is due to the French. Who are their neighbours.

[R1b-L51]

Most of Europe has some Bell Beaker and Corded Ware just like they have Farmer and HG. Populations that are closest genetically share the most genetics. L21 was spread with Bell Beakers and the most likely reason why Spain would have some of this is due to the French. Who are their neighbours.


You are not very observant, your hypothesis is not plausible for 3 fundamental reasons:

1. In the south of France there is no L21, neither little nor much, it simply does not exist, in fact there is a desert strip between the Basque Country and France, which is why L21 cannot be in Iberia because the neighbors have it because the more neighbors next which are the southern French NO THE NEIGHBORS DO NOT HAVE THEM.
2. If it were by neighborhood as you suggest, the Germans and Dutch near French Brittany would also have it, but UALÁ the OTHER NEIGHBORS DO NOT HAVE IT EITHER.
3. There are parts of Brittain closer to Scottia than Biscaia to Scottia that have less than the Basques, therefore IS NOT ABOUT PROXIMITY.


The thing is simply about migrations, Scandinavian Celt I have already shown you the routes, the debate makes no sense.

https://i.postimg.cc/W4bhYP9L/Haplogroup-R1b-L21-2.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Ylla]

It’s changed a little. I’m now getting Paeonian as a population.


136925
136926

[Grace O'Malley]

You are not very observant, your hypothesis is not plausible for 3 fundamental reasons:

1. In the south of France there is no L21, neither little nor much, it simply does not exist, in fact there is a desert strip between the Basque Country and France, which is why L21 cannot be in Iberia because the neighbors have it because the more neighbors next which are the southern French NO THE NEIGHBORS DO NOT HAVE THEM.
2. If it were by neighborhood as you suggest, the Germans and Dutch near French Brittany would also have it, but UALÁ the OTHER NEIGHBORS DO NOT HAVE IT EITHER.
3. There are parts of Brittain closer to Scottia than Biscaia to Scottia that have less than the Basques, therefore IS NOT ABOUT PROXIMITY.


The thing is simply about migrations, Scandinavian Celt I have already shown you the routes, the debate makes no sense.

https://i.postimg.cc/W4bhYP9L/Haplogroup-R1b-L21-2.png (https://postimages.org/)

And remember the Irish have hardly changed since the Bronze Age while the Iron Age Spanish were like the Basques so no the Irish did not descend from the Spanish. Irish have a much longer continuity than the Spanish. :p

[R1b-L51]

And remember the Irish have hardly changed since the Bronze Age while the Iron Age Spanish were like the Basques so no the Irish did not descend from the Spanish. Irish have a much longer continuity than the Spanish. :p

Well, we agree on that, not all Spaniards or Portuguese are related to the Irish. I have never said that, but at least a large part of the Iberians in the north of the peninsula are, at least we can say that they are more paternally related than many English (obviously even the northern Iberians are more mixed mitochondrially than the original Scots, and directly others from the central south since they have no relationship, although even in that there would be discussion since the northern kingdoms reconquered and repopulated the Muslim kingdoms of the south, so something will remain too).

You are a very keltid stubborn girl and sometimes I feel that you hesitate for your delight.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well, we agree on that, not all Spaniards or Portuguese are related to the Irish. I have never said that, but at least a large part of the Iberians in the north of the peninsula are, at least we can say that they are more paternally related than many English (obviously even the northern Iberians are more mixed mitochondrially than the original Scots, and directly others from the central south since they have no relationship, although even in that there would be discussion since the northern kingdoms reconquered and repopulated the Muslim kingdoms of the south, so something will remain too).

You are a very keltid stubborn girl and sometimes I feel that you hesitate for your delight.

You are closest to people with the most similar autosomal dna. You can have close relatives that have completely different ydna. A Spanish person that is ydna E-M78 is closer to a Spanish that is R1b-DF27 than to a person of another ethnicity with the same ydna.

A Spanish person is closer genetic distance wise to Germans than they are to Irish for example.

[R1b-L51]

You are closest to people with the most similar autosomal dna. You can have close relatives that have completely different ydna. A Spanish person that is ydna E-M78 is closer to a Spanish that is R1b-DF27 than to a person of another ethnicity with the same ydna.

A Spanish person is closer genetic distance wise to Germans than they are to Irish for example.

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/y-dna-haplogroup-project-forums/r/r-l21-plus-project/334684-muhammad-ali-r1b-fgc53689

Without a doubt that would open another interesting debate, from my point of view the (paternal) mold is still important, but that is something that Christians especially believe. For example, Muhammad Ali is an Irish R-L21, everyone always said that that guy was crazy and was willing to die for that sport, of course his speed/explosiveness and skill with his hands, his disposition in the ring was never seen. never to any other black person, something that even his daughter Layla Ali inherited. I have never considered Cassius Clay to be completely black and I never will.

[ScandinavianCelt]

@R1b-L51 @Grace O'Malley

Run all the modern scaled Irish individuals, and do Pop Ave also, against this Source and see if it shows anything worth discussing?

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/CuKxjhBW" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

This is the single POP AVE sample:


Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4939% / 0.00493892 | R5P
30.8 England_IA
23.2 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
21.4 England_IA_Roman.SG
15.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
8.8 Spain_IA

Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4194% / 0.00419387
21.8 England_IA
19.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
17.8 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
6.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
6.4 England_IA.SG
6.4 Ireland_EBA.SG
6.4 Spain_IA
4.8 Norway_IA.SG
4.6 Sweden_LNBA
2.2 Spain_EN
1.6 Czech_BellBeaker
1.4 England_BellBeaker_lowEEF
0.6 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya

Run it against all the individuals though. I'll share result of my closest Irish individual sample: Irish29

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2812% / 0.01281183 | R5P
27.4 Germany_BellBeaker
23.8 England_IA
23.6 France_BellBeaker
14.6 Czech_BellBeaker
10.6 Spain_Formentera_MBA

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2178% / 0.01217756
23.2 France_BellBeaker
19.4 England_IA
11.6 Spain_Visigoth
11.0 Germany_BellBeaker
11.0 Spain_Formentera_MBA
9.6 Czech_BellBeaker
4.4 England_BellBeaker
3.0 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.8 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya
1.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
1.4 Spain_IA
1.4 Sweden_IA.SG
0.8 Spain_MLN


This is the AVERAGE of ALL MODERN IRISH SAMPLES vs calc above: (no ADC): Seems to show, on average, 14.1% Spanish.

England_IA 14
England_IA_Roman.SG 12
England_BellBeaker 10
England_IA_EarlyMedieval 7.9
Norway_IA.SG 7.2
Spain_IA 5.1
Czech_BellBeaker 5.1
Ireland_EBA.SG 3.4
Netherlands_BellBeaker 3
England_BellBeaker_lowEEF 2.6
Sweden_IA_2.SG 2.5
Germany_BellBeaker 2.2
Scotland_IA 2
Spain_C_oSteppe 1.5
Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya 1.5
France_EBA_BellBeaker 1.4
Spain_Carolingian 1.4
Germany_Lech_BellBeaker 1
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 1
Spain_LIA 0.9
Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker 0.9
England_IA_ERoman.SG 0.8
England_BellBeaker_highEEF 0.8
Kazakhstan_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.8
England_IA_o.SG 0.7
France_BellBeaker 0.7
Spain_MLN 0.7
England_IA.SG 0.6
Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.6
Spain_Visigoth_Granada 0.6
Spain_C 0.5
Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG 0.5
Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona 0.4
England_BellBeaker_o 0.4
Spain_IA_Celt_o 0.3
Spain_EN 0.3
Spain_Aritgues_LBA 0.3
Spain_MBA 0.3
Spain_IA_o 0.3
Czech_BellBeaker_oAnatolia1 0.2
Scotland_BellBeaker 0.2
Spain_Formentera_MBA 0.2
Sweden_IA.SG 0.2
Italy_North_BellBeaker_3 0.2
Spain_SE_Iberia_CA 0.2
Spain_Roman_oLocal 0.2
Spain_NazariPeriod_Muslim 0.2
Spain_Visigoth 0.2
Czech_BellBeaker_oSteppe 0.1
England_EBA_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Medieval 0.1
Spain_Bastida_Argar_Late 0.1
Spain_EBA 0.1
England_IA_Roman_oMiddleEast.SG 0.1
Switzerland_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Almoloya_Argar_Early 0.1
Russia_Caucasus_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Spain_SE_Iberia_BA_Argar 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o 0.1
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica 0.1


There are 12 "official" Irish samples that get 15-25% Spain_IA on the calc, as well as more Spanish pieces.

For example:

Target: Irish:Irish13
Distance: 1.7482% / 0.01748171
42.8 Norway_IA.SG
25.4 Spain_IA
16.8 England_IA_Roman.SG
5.6 England_IA
4.0 Italy_North_BellBeaker_3
2.6 Ireland_EBA.SG
1.4 Spain_EBA
1.0 Poland_BellBeaker
0.2 Spain_C
0.2 Spain_MLN

These are the Irish samples I used as TARGET against the calc Source above:

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/frZPHMVb" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

Try the calc for yourselves also. This is my result, FWIW2u:

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 1.0181% / 0.01018120 | R5P
39.0 Germany_BellBeaker
24.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
19.2 Norway_IA.SG
10.0 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
7.2 Spain_Medieval

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 0.9729% / 0.00972940
33.4 Germany_BellBeaker
16.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
13.4 Norway_IA.SG
9.4 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
6.2 Spain_Medieval
5.0 England_BellBeaker
4.6 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
3.2 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG
3.0 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
2.0 Spain_Aritgues_LBA
1.8 Spain_Formentera_MBA
1.4 Sweden_Late_N.SG

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 2.1213% / 0.02121256 | ADC: 2x RC
66.8 Czech_BellBeaker
33.2 England_BellBeaker_highEEF

[Grace O'Malley]

@R1b-L51 @Grace O'Malley

Run all the modern scaled Irish individuals, and do Pop Ave also, against this Source and see if it shows anything worth discussing?

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/CuKxjhBW" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

This is the single POP AVE sample:


Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4939% / 0.00493892 | R5P
30.8 England_IA
23.2 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
21.4 England_IA_Roman.SG
15.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
8.8 Spain_IA

Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4194% / 0.00419387
21.8 England_IA
19.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
17.8 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
6.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
6.4 England_IA.SG
6.4 Ireland_EBA.SG
6.4 Spain_IA
4.8 Norway_IA.SG
4.6 Sweden_LNBA
2.2 Spain_EN
1.6 Czech_BellBeaker
1.4 England_BellBeaker_lowEEF
0.6 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya

Run it against all the individuals though. I'll share result of my closest Irish individual sample: Irish29

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2812% / 0.01281183 | R5P
27.4 Germany_BellBeaker
23.8 England_IA
23.6 France_BellBeaker
14.6 Czech_BellBeaker
10.6 Spain_Formentera_MBA

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2178% / 0.01217756
23.2 France_BellBeaker
19.4 England_IA
11.6 Spain_Visigoth
11.0 Germany_BellBeaker
11.0 Spain_Formentera_MBA
9.6 Czech_BellBeaker
4.4 England_BellBeaker
3.0 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.8 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya
1.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
1.4 Spain_IA
1.4 Sweden_IA.SG
0.8 Spain_MLN


This is the AVERAGE of ALL MODERN IRISH SAMPLES vs calc above: (no ADC): Seems to show, on average, 14.1% Spanish.

England_IA 14
England_IA_Roman.SG 12
England_BellBeaker 10
England_IA_EarlyMedieval 7.9
Norway_IA.SG 7.2
Spain_IA 5.1
Czech_BellBeaker 5.1
Ireland_EBA.SG 3.4
Netherlands_BellBeaker 3
England_BellBeaker_lowEEF 2.6
Sweden_IA_2.SG 2.5
Germany_BellBeaker 2.2
Scotland_IA 2
Spain_C_oSteppe 1.5
Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya 1.5
France_EBA_BellBeaker 1.4
Spain_Carolingian 1.4
Germany_Lech_BellBeaker 1
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 1
Spain_LIA 0.9
Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker 0.9
England_IA_ERoman.SG 0.8
England_BellBeaker_highEEF 0.8
Kazakhstan_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.8
England_IA_o.SG 0.7
France_BellBeaker 0.7
Spain_MLN 0.7
England_IA.SG 0.6
Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.6
Spain_Visigoth_Granada 0.6
Spain_C 0.5
Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG 0.5
Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona 0.4
England_BellBeaker_o 0.4
Spain_IA_Celt_o 0.3
Spain_EN 0.3
Spain_Aritgues_LBA 0.3
Spain_MBA 0.3
Spain_IA_o 0.3
Czech_BellBeaker_oAnatolia1 0.2
Scotland_BellBeaker 0.2
Spain_Formentera_MBA 0.2
Sweden_IA.SG 0.2
Italy_North_BellBeaker_3 0.2
Spain_SE_Iberia_CA 0.2
Spain_Roman_oLocal 0.2
Spain_NazariPeriod_Muslim 0.2
Spain_Visigoth 0.2
Czech_BellBeaker_oSteppe 0.1
England_EBA_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Medieval 0.1
Spain_Bastida_Argar_Late 0.1
Spain_EBA 0.1
England_IA_Roman_oMiddleEast.SG 0.1
Switzerland_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Almoloya_Argar_Early 0.1
Russia_Caucasus_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Spain_SE_Iberia_BA_Argar 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o 0.1
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica 0.1


There are 12 "official" Irish samples that get 15-25% Spain_IA on the calc, as well as more Spanish pieces.

For example:

Target: Irish:Irish13
Distance: 1.7482% / 0.01748171
42.8 Norway_IA.SG
25.4 Spain_IA
16.8 England_IA_Roman.SG
5.6 England_IA
4.0 Italy_North_BellBeaker_3
2.6 Ireland_EBA.SG
1.4 Spain_EBA
1.0 Poland_BellBeaker
0.2 Spain_C
0.2 Spain_MLN

These are the Irish samples I used as TARGET against the calc Source above:

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/frZPHMVb" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

Try the calc for yourselves also. This is my result, FWIW2u:

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 1.0181% / 0.01018120 | R5P
39.0 Germany_BellBeaker
24.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
19.2 Norway_IA.SG
10.0 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
7.2 Spain_Medieval

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 0.9729% / 0.00972940
33.4 Germany_BellBeaker
16.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
13.4 Norway_IA.SG
9.4 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
6.2 Spain_Medieval
5.0 England_BellBeaker
4.6 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
3.2 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG
3.0 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
2.0 Spain_Aritgues_LBA
1.8 Spain_Formentera_MBA
1.4 Sweden_Late_N.SG

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 2.1213% / 0.02121256 | ADC: 2x RC
66.8 Czech_BellBeaker
33.2 England_BellBeaker_highEEF

G25 models aren't going to be accurate as far as what populations have actually being involved in a population's ethnicity. We need some good genetic studies like the one that discovered the France-IA in the Southern English.

Using your samples this is what Danish and Dutch get. I've just given the 5 pop reduction results.


Target: Dutch
Distance: 0.3252% / 0.00325239 | R5P
33.8 Czech_BellBeaker
22.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
15.4 Sweden_IA_2.SG
14.4 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
14.2 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona

Target: Danish
Distance: 0.3381% / 0.00338137 | R5P
39.2 Czech_BellBeaker
22.4 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
18.6 Norway_IA.SG
14.6 Sweden_IA_2.SG
5.2 Spain_IA

G25 models while they are interesting to play around with are just going to try to find the best fit. They aren't something that you can take too literally unless they make sense for the actual history but even then they are only calculators. There are already a couple of good studies on populations like the Irish showing what ancient populations contributed to the Irish. There needs to be a study looking at later populations like the Anglo-Saxon paper done on Britain.

With my results in G25 I'm not Icelandic or 25% Swedish which the models give me. I know you have actual Scandinavian ancestry but I don't. Also unfortunately they don't have enough ancient Irish genomes available. We need more Gaelic genomes and later ones from the Medieval period.

[RyoHazuki]

@R1b-L51 @Grace O'Malley

Run all the modern scaled Irish individuals, and do Pop Ave also, against this Source and see if it shows anything worth discussing?

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/CuKxjhBW" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

This is the single POP AVE sample:


Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4939% / 0.00493892 | R5P
30.8 England_IA
23.2 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
21.4 England_IA_Roman.SG
15.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
8.8 Spain_IA

Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4194% / 0.00419387
21.8 England_IA
19.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
17.8 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
6.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
6.4 England_IA.SG
6.4 Ireland_EBA.SG
6.4 Spain_IA
4.8 Norway_IA.SG
4.6 Sweden_LNBA
2.2 Spain_EN
1.6 Czech_BellBeaker
1.4 England_BellBeaker_lowEEF
0.6 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya

Run it against all the individuals though. I'll share result of my closest Irish individual sample: Irish29

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2812% / 0.01281183 | R5P
27.4 Germany_BellBeaker
23.8 England_IA
23.6 France_BellBeaker
14.6 Czech_BellBeaker
10.6 Spain_Formentera_MBA

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2178% / 0.01217756
23.2 France_BellBeaker
19.4 England_IA
11.6 Spain_Visigoth
11.0 Germany_BellBeaker
11.0 Spain_Formentera_MBA
9.6 Czech_BellBeaker
4.4 England_BellBeaker
3.0 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.8 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya
1.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
1.4 Spain_IA
1.4 Sweden_IA.SG
0.8 Spain_MLN


This is the AVERAGE of ALL MODERN IRISH SAMPLES vs calc above: (no ADC): Seems to show, on average, 14.1% Spanish.

England_IA 14
England_IA_Roman.SG 12
England_BellBeaker 10
England_IA_EarlyMedieval 7.9
Norway_IA.SG 7.2
Spain_IA 5.1
Czech_BellBeaker 5.1
Ireland_EBA.SG 3.4
Netherlands_BellBeaker 3
England_BellBeaker_lowEEF 2.6
Sweden_IA_2.SG 2.5
Germany_BellBeaker 2.2
Scotland_IA 2
Spain_C_oSteppe 1.5
Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya 1.5
France_EBA_BellBeaker 1.4
Spain_Carolingian 1.4
Germany_Lech_BellBeaker 1
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 1
Spain_LIA 0.9
Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker 0.9
England_IA_ERoman.SG 0.8
England_BellBeaker_highEEF 0.8
Kazakhstan_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.8
England_IA_o.SG 0.7
France_BellBeaker 0.7
Spain_MLN 0.7
England_IA.SG 0.6
Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.6
Spain_Visigoth_Granada 0.6
Spain_C 0.5
Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG 0.5
Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona 0.4
England_BellBeaker_o 0.4
Spain_IA_Celt_o 0.3
Spain_EN 0.3
Spain_Aritgues_LBA 0.3
Spain_MBA 0.3
Spain_IA_o 0.3
Czech_BellBeaker_oAnatolia1 0.2
Scotland_BellBeaker 0.2
Spain_Formentera_MBA 0.2
Sweden_IA.SG 0.2
Italy_North_BellBeaker_3 0.2
Spain_SE_Iberia_CA 0.2
Spain_Roman_oLocal 0.2
Spain_NazariPeriod_Muslim 0.2
Spain_Visigoth 0.2
Czech_BellBeaker_oSteppe 0.1
England_EBA_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Medieval 0.1
Spain_Bastida_Argar_Late 0.1
Spain_EBA 0.1
England_IA_Roman_oMiddleEast.SG 0.1
Switzerland_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Almoloya_Argar_Early 0.1
Russia_Caucasus_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Spain_SE_Iberia_BA_Argar 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o 0.1
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica 0.1


There are 12 "official" Irish samples that get 15-25% Spain_IA on the calc, as well as more Spanish pieces.

For example:

Target: Irish:Irish13
Distance: 1.7482% / 0.01748171
42.8 Norway_IA.SG
25.4 Spain_IA
16.8 England_IA_Roman.SG
5.6 England_IA
4.0 Italy_North_BellBeaker_3
2.6 Ireland_EBA.SG
1.4 Spain_EBA
1.0 Poland_BellBeaker
0.2 Spain_C
0.2 Spain_MLN

These are the Irish samples I used as TARGET against the calc Source above:

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/frZPHMVb" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

Try the calc for yourselves also. This is my result, FWIW2u:

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 1.0181% / 0.01018120 | R5P
39.0 Germany_BellBeaker
24.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
19.2 Norway_IA.SG
10.0 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
7.2 Spain_Medieval

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 0.9729% / 0.00972940
33.4 Germany_BellBeaker
16.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
13.4 Norway_IA.SG
9.4 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
6.2 Spain_Medieval
5.0 England_BellBeaker
4.6 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
3.2 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG
3.0 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
2.0 Spain_Aritgues_LBA
1.8 Spain_Formentera_MBA
1.4 Sweden_Late_N.SG

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 2.1213% / 0.02121256 | ADC: 2x RC
66.8 Czech_BellBeaker
33.2 England_BellBeaker_highEEF

Spain Visigoth isn't local Iberians but Germanics mixed with Iberians. Most of the "Spanish" isn't Iberians but various ancient peoples of different levels of farmer and steppe admix. As you can see they get very little in the wake of local IA Iberian or middle ages admix that Spaniards generally have.

The few who get more Iberian IA get it because they're being overfitted with higher steppe populations like Norway_IA.

I am Iberian admixed but I still show close affinity to NW Europeans since at the end of the day its not enough to make you to dissimilar to other western europeans, NW Europeans and Spaniards are both beaker descendants, and many continental celtic groups show some genetic affinity to modern Iberians.

Target: G25K13SimRyoHazuki
Distance: 0.3693% / 0.00369342 | R5P
36.4 Norway_IA.SG
22.6 Germany_BellBeaker
17.0 Spain_IA
13.6 England_IA_Roman.SG
10.4 Spain_Medieval

Target: Ryo_scaled
Distance: 1.6842% / 0.01684175 | R5P
39.4 Norway_IA.SG
17.8 England_BellBeaker
16.0 Italy_North_BellBeaker_3
15.8 Spain_Carolingian
11.0 Germany_BellBeaker

[Gannicus]

What do you show if you select Europe (East)+West/East-Slavic?

When I set to Europe East and East/West Slavic I get this:


Genetic fit: 1.812 (Very close)

Germanic (AD 700–1000)
73.4%

Balkans (AD 500–1000)
26.6%

It looks to me like this Balkan average represents the peoples that existed before the arrival of the Slavs.

[Feiichy]

My updated results and they did change a bit.

Periodical:
https://i.imgur.com/XuWI2vm.png

https://i.imgur.com/JzVxtjs.png

https://i.imgur.com/0lTwfi1.png

https://i.imgur.com/O2wWC3Q.png

Hunter-gatherer & farmer
https://i.imgur.com/jjzgeUW.png

Unsupervised analysis
https://i.imgur.com/s3CQJSn.png
https://i.imgur.com/UAF0l32.png
https://i.imgur.com/u9TTdta.png
https://i.imgur.com/hDTJxdr.png
https://i.imgur.com/0HVWrTt.png

Closest populations
https://i.imgur.com/YvX9xNi.png
https://i.imgur.com/oIn5zOT.png

PCA plots
https://i.imgur.com/aolqVhn.png

[Feiichy]

It looks to me like this Balkan average represents the peoples that existed before the arrival of the Slavs.

It does, yes.

[ScandinavianCelt]

When I set to Europe East and East/West Slavic I get this:


Genetic fit: 1.812 (Very close)

Germanic (AD 700–1000)
73.4%

Balkans (AD 500–1000)
26.6%

It looks to me like this Balkan average represents the peoples that existed before the arrival of the Slavs.

That's exactly what I was wondering-- how much Balkans you'd show.

[Gannicus]

That's exactly what I was wondering-- how much Balkans you'd show.

Is my result what you were expecting?

[ScandinavianCelt]

Is my result what you were expecting?

Slightly more

[R1b-L51]

G25 models aren't going to be accurate as far as what populations have actually being involved in a population's ethnicity. We need some good genetic studies like the one that discovered the France-IA in the Southern English.

Using your samples this is what Danish and Dutch get. I've just given the 5 pop reduction results.


Target: Dutch
Distance: 0.3252% / 0.00325239 | R5P
33.8 Czech_BellBeaker
22.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
15.4 Sweden_IA_2.SG
14.4 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
14.2 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona

Target: Danish
Distance: 0.3381% / 0.00338137 | R5P
39.2 Czech_BellBeaker
22.4 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
18.6 Norway_IA.SG
14.6 Sweden_IA_2.SG
5.2 Spain_IA

G25 models while they are interesting to play around with are just going to try to find the best fit. They aren't something that you can take too literally unless they make sense for the actual history but even then they are only calculators. There are already a couple of good studies on populations like the Irish showing what ancient populations contributed to the Irish. There needs to be a study looking at later populations like the Anglo-Saxon paper done on Britain.

With my results in G25 I'm not Icelandic or 25% Swedish which the models give me. I know you have actual Scandinavian ancestry but I don't. Also unfortunately they don't have enough ancient Irish genomes available. We need more Gaelic genomes and later ones from the Medieval period.

Yes, but you have not dared to carry out the test on your own genetics, in exchange you show us a result for a Dutchman that no one has asked of you and also again with certain inaccuracies since the sample from Visigothic Spain would be for a strongly northern individual product of the migrations of the barbarians over the Iberian Peninsula (something similar to the samples that the Vikings have on you Scotians)

[R1b-L51]

@R1b-L51 @Grace O'Malley

Run all the modern scaled Irish individuals, and do Pop Ave also, against this Source and see if it shows anything worth discussing?

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/CuKxjhBW" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

This is the single POP AVE sample:


Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4939% / 0.00493892 | R5P
30.8 England_IA
23.2 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
21.4 England_IA_Roman.SG
15.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
8.8 Spain_IA

Target: Irish
Distance: 0.4194% / 0.00419387
21.8 England_IA
19.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
17.8 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
6.8 Netherlands_BellBeaker
6.4 England_IA.SG
6.4 Ireland_EBA.SG
6.4 Spain_IA
4.8 Norway_IA.SG
4.6 Sweden_LNBA
2.2 Spain_EN
1.6 Czech_BellBeaker
1.4 England_BellBeaker_lowEEF
0.6 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya

Run it against all the individuals though. I'll share result of my closest Irish individual sample: Irish29

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2812% / 0.01281183 | R5P
27.4 Germany_BellBeaker
23.8 England_IA
23.6 France_BellBeaker
14.6 Czech_BellBeaker
10.6 Spain_Formentera_MBA

Target: Irish:Irish29
Distance: 1.2178% / 0.01217756
23.2 France_BellBeaker
19.4 England_IA
11.6 Spain_Visigoth
11.0 Germany_BellBeaker
11.0 Spain_Formentera_MBA
9.6 Czech_BellBeaker
4.4 England_BellBeaker
3.0 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.8 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya
1.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
1.4 Spain_IA
1.4 Sweden_IA.SG
0.8 Spain_MLN


This is the AVERAGE of ALL MODERN IRISH SAMPLES vs calc above: (no ADC): Seems to show, on average, 14.1% Spanish.

England_IA 14
England_IA_Roman.SG 12
England_BellBeaker 10
England_IA_EarlyMedieval 7.9
Norway_IA.SG 7.2
Spain_IA 5.1
Czech_BellBeaker 5.1
Ireland_EBA.SG 3.4
Netherlands_BellBeaker 3
England_BellBeaker_lowEEF 2.6
Sweden_IA_2.SG 2.5
Germany_BellBeaker 2.2
Scotland_IA 2
Spain_C_oSteppe 1.5
Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya 1.5
France_EBA_BellBeaker 1.4
Spain_Carolingian 1.4
Germany_Lech_BellBeaker 1
Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya 1
Spain_LIA 0.9
Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker 0.9
England_IA_ERoman.SG 0.8
England_BellBeaker_highEEF 0.8
Kazakhstan_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.8
England_IA_o.SG 0.7
France_BellBeaker 0.7
Spain_MLN 0.7
England_IA.SG 0.6
Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG 0.6
Spain_Visigoth_Granada 0.6
Spain_C 0.5
Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG 0.5
Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona 0.4
England_BellBeaker_o 0.4
Spain_IA_Celt_o 0.3
Spain_EN 0.3
Spain_Aritgues_LBA 0.3
Spain_MBA 0.3
Spain_IA_o 0.3
Czech_BellBeaker_oAnatolia1 0.2
Scotland_BellBeaker 0.2
Spain_Formentera_MBA 0.2
Sweden_IA.SG 0.2
Italy_North_BellBeaker_3 0.2
Spain_SE_Iberia_CA 0.2
Spain_Roman_oLocal 0.2
Spain_NazariPeriod_Muslim 0.2
Spain_Visigoth 0.2
Czech_BellBeaker_oSteppe 0.1
England_EBA_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Medieval 0.1
Spain_Bastida_Argar_Late 0.1
Spain_EBA 0.1
England_IA_Roman_oMiddleEast.SG 0.1
Switzerland_BellBeaker 0.1
Spain_Almoloya_Argar_Early 0.1
Russia_Caucasus_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Spain_SE_Iberia_BA_Argar 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya 0.1
Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o 0.1
Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica 0.1


There are 12 "official" Irish samples that get 15-25% Spain_IA on the calc, as well as more Spanish pieces.

For example:

Target: Irish:Irish13
Distance: 1.7482% / 0.01748171
42.8 Norway_IA.SG
25.4 Spain_IA
16.8 England_IA_Roman.SG
5.6 England_IA
4.0 Italy_North_BellBeaker_3
2.6 Ireland_EBA.SG
1.4 Spain_EBA
1.0 Poland_BellBeaker
0.2 Spain_C
0.2 Spain_MLN

These are the Irish samples I used as TARGET against the calc Source above:

<iframe src="https://pastebin.com/embed_iframe/frZPHMVb" style="border:none;width:50%"></iframe>

Try the calc for yourselves also. This is my result, FWIW2u:

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 1.0181% / 0.01018120 | R5P
39.0 Germany_BellBeaker
24.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
19.2 Norway_IA.SG
10.0 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
7.2 Spain_Medieval

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 0.9729% / 0.00972940
33.4 Germany_BellBeaker
16.6 Spain_Visigoth_Barcelona
13.4 Norway_IA.SG
9.4 Russia_Kalmykia_EBA_Yamnaya.SG
6.2 Spain_Medieval
5.0 England_BellBeaker
4.6 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
3.2 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG
3.0 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
2.0 Spain_Aritgues_LBA
1.8 Spain_Formentera_MBA
1.4 Sweden_Late_N.SG

Target: SC_PreUpdate_Official_Ave_Scaled
Distance: 2.1213% / 0.02121256 | ADC: 2x RC
66.8 Czech_BellBeaker
33.2 England_BellBeaker_highEEF

GRACIAS MAESTRO

For my is clear as a sunshine-morning in the springtime, simply it is just clear that this girl doesn't want to admit that I'm her genetic ancestor.

But...I AM

BTW


Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 0.9262% / 0.00926176
29.0 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
19.6 Irish
13.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
7.2 Spain_LIA
6.4 Spain_Formentera_MBA
5.8 Spain_NazariPeriod_LateMuslim
5.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
2.8 Spain_C
2.6 Ukraine_Ozera_EBA_Yamnaya_o
2.2 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica
2.2 Spain_Islamic_Zira
2.0 Spain_SE_Iberia_CA
0.8 Ireland_EN.SG
0.6 Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker
0.2 Spain_ElMiron

NO AGGREGATE

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 0.9252% / 0.00925205
14.0 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker:UNTA58_68Sk1
11.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3575
9.6 Irish:Irish9
9.4 Irish:Irish14
8.8 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3576
8.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3583
7.2 Spain_LIA:I19990
6.8 Spain_Formentera_MBA:I4420
6.2 Spain_NazariPeriod_LateMuslim:I8146
5.0 England_IA_Roman.SG:6DT23_noUDG.SG
2.6 Spain_Islamic_Zira:I7499
2.0 Spain_C:I1276
1.8 Spain_SE_Iberia_CA:CDP002
1.8 Ukraine_Ozera_EBA_Yamnaya_o:I1917
1.6 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3579
1.0 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica:I4246
0.8 Ireland_EN.SG:PN05.SG
0.6 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica:I4246
0.4 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya:I11446
0.4 Spain_C:I6587
0.4 Spain_ElMiron:ElMiron_d
0.2 Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker:I3528


Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 0.9928% / 0.00992754 | R5P
44.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
19.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
18.2 Irish
9.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
9.0 Spain_C


Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.0709% / 0.01070853 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
17.8 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
11.6 England_IA_Roman.SG
10.8 Spain_EBA_Africa
7.2 Irish
5.4 Spain_EBA_Mallorca
3.8 Spain_Islamic_Almohade
3.6 Spain_Visigoth
3.2 Spain_Islamic
2.4 Spain_LIA

AGGREGATE NO

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.0708% / 0.01070804 | ADC: 0.25x RC
19.8 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3576
17.8 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker:UNTA58_68Sk1
14.6 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3575
11.4 England_IA_Roman.SG:6DT23_noUDG.SG
10.6 Spain_EBA_Africa:I7162
7.4 Irish:Irish14
5.8 Spain_EBA_Mallorca:I4329
3.8 Spain_Islamic_Almohade:I7457
3.4 Spain_Visigoth:I12162
3.0 Spain_Islamic:I12649
2.4 Spain_LIA:I19990


These are my coordinates

ROBERTOFERN_scaled,0.100164,0.140143,0.035449,-0.000323,0.041854,-0.005578,0.00282,0.002538,0.020861,0.030616,-0.00406,0.006894,-0.013528,-0.009221,0.008007,-0.005967,-0.006258,-0.000253,-0.011816,-0.002626,0.004742,-0.012118,-0.010599,-0.003253,0.001437

ROBERTOFERN,0.0088,0.0138,0.0094,-0.0001,0.0136,-0.002,0.0012,0.0011,0.0102,0.0168,-0.0025,0.0046,-0.0091,-0.0067,0.0059,-0.0045,-0.0048,-0.0001997,-0.0094,-0.0021,0.0038,-0.0098,-0.0086,-0.0027,0.0012


I am a clear example of Astyr/Cantabrian (first manifestations prior to the Bell Beaker who mixed with Ibero-Berbers who were in the north of the peninsula since the Neolithic), these ancestors of mine were later Romanized in bloody scenarios for which the Romans needed mobilize up to 7 legions operating at the same time, some of them lost their name due to the shame of losing their banner as is the case of the "Legio I Augusta" which was renamed "Vernacular", it is estimated that the number of soldiers deployed by the soldiers in these wars was 50 thousand soldiers and the conquest lasted 10 years.

After these events, permanent legions such as Legio VI and Legio VII (current León) were installed to control the population and extract gold from Berdigium.

These legions were the last operational in Hispania until the fall of the Roman Empire, and the Astures in fact amalgamated with the Romans and the populations that the Romans brought as service or domestic labor (many of them slaves).

The Romanization process was so strong that cavalry wings and infantry cohorts of Asturian and Cantabrian warriors were even created as aid, units that were destined to fight Hadrian's Wall, like the Asturian warrior Pintauis (tombstone in photo of below), closing the circle and paradoxically fighting against their ancient genetic relatives.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, but you have not dared to carry out the test on your own genetics, in exchange you show us a result for a Dutchman that no one has asked of you and also again with certain inaccuracies since the sample from Visigothic Spain would be for a strongly northern individual product of the migrations of the barbarians over the Iberian Peninsula (something similar to the samples that the Vikings have on you Scotians)

Of course I looked at my own but didn't see the point of posting my individual results. Some of these results are not realistic of course because they are calculators so they use samples they are not accurate for your ancestry. The reason for posting Danes and Dutch was to show how the model is not accurate. I've been looking at genetics for over 10 years and have read all the studies. You are clutching at straws.

Here are my results.


Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 0.9747% / 0.00974688
27.2 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
17.4 England_BellBeaker
13.4 Germany_BellBeaker
10.0 England_IA_Roman.SG
7.0 England_IA
5.2 Norway_IA.SG
5.0 Spain_IA
4.8 Czech_BellBeaker
3.2 Netherlands_BellBeaker
2.0 England_IA_ERoman.SG
1.8 England_BellBeaker_highEEF
1.0 France_BellBeaker
0.8 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
0.8 Poland_GlobularAmphora
0.4 Sweden_IA_2.SG

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.0076% / 0.01007630 | R5P
35.8 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
31.6 England_BellBeaker
13.6 England_IA_Roman.SG
11.4 Germany_BellBeaker
7.6 Poland_GlobularAmphora

[Grace O'Malley]

GRACIAS MAESTRO

For my is clear as a sunshine-morning in the springtime, simply it is just clear that this girl doesn't want to admit that I'm her genetic ancestor.

But...I AM

BTW


Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 0.9262% / 0.00926176
29.0 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
19.6 Irish
13.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
7.2 Spain_LIA
6.4 Spain_Formentera_MBA
5.8 Spain_NazariPeriod_LateMuslim
5.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
2.8 Spain_C
2.6 Ukraine_Ozera_EBA_Yamnaya_o
2.2 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica
2.2 Spain_Islamic_Zira
2.0 Spain_SE_Iberia_CA
0.8 Ireland_EN.SG
0.6 Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker
0.2 Spain_ElMiron

NO AGGREGATE

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 0.9252% / 0.00925205
14.0 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker:UNTA58_68Sk1
11.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3575
9.6 Irish:Irish9
9.4 Irish:Irish14
8.8 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3576
8.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3583
7.2 Spain_LIA:I19990
6.8 Spain_Formentera_MBA:I4420
6.2 Spain_NazariPeriod_LateMuslim:I8146
5.0 England_IA_Roman.SG:6DT23_noUDG.SG
2.6 Spain_Islamic_Zira:I7499
2.0 Spain_C:I1276
1.8 Spain_SE_Iberia_CA:CDP002
1.8 Ukraine_Ozera_EBA_Yamnaya_o:I1917
1.6 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3579
1.0 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica:I4246
0.8 Ireland_EN.SG:PN05.SG
0.6 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica:I4246
0.4 Serbia_EBA_Yamnaya:I11446
0.4 Spain_C:I6587
0.4 Spain_ElMiron:ElMiron_d
0.2 Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker:I3528


Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 0.9928% / 0.00992754 | R5P
44.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
19.4 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
18.2 Irish
9.2 England_IA_Roman.SG
9.0 Spain_C


Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.0709% / 0.01070853 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.2 Spain_Visigoth_Granada
17.8 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker
11.6 England_IA_Roman.SG
10.8 Spain_EBA_Africa
7.2 Irish
5.4 Spain_EBA_Mallorca
3.8 Spain_Islamic_Almohade
3.6 Spain_Visigoth
3.2 Spain_Islamic
2.4 Spain_LIA

AGGREGATE NO

Target: ROBERTOFERN_scaled
Distance: 1.0708% / 0.01070804 | ADC: 0.25x RC
19.8 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3576
17.8 Germany_Lech_BellBeaker:UNTA58_68Sk1
14.6 Spain_Visigoth_Granada:I3575
11.4 England_IA_Roman.SG:6DT23_noUDG.SG
10.6 Spain_EBA_Africa:I7162
7.4 Irish:Irish14
5.8 Spain_EBA_Mallorca:I4329
3.8 Spain_Islamic_Almohade:I7457
3.4 Spain_Visigoth:I12162
3.0 Spain_Islamic:I12649
2.4 Spain_LIA:I19990


These are my coordinates

ROBERTOFERN_scaled,0.100164,0.140143,0.035449,-0.000323,0.041854,-0.005578,0.00282,0.002538,0.020861,0.030616,-0.00406,0.006894,-0.013528,-0.009221,0.008007,-0.005967,-0.006258,-0.000253,-0.011816,-0.002626,0.004742,-0.012118,-0.010599,-0.003253,0.001437

ROBERTOFERN,0.0088,0.0138,0.0094,-0.0001,0.0136,-0.002,0.0012,0.0011,0.0102,0.0168,-0.0025,0.0046,-0.0091,-0.0067,0.0059,-0.0045,-0.0048,-0.0001997,-0.0094,-0.0021,0.0038,-0.0098,-0.0086,-0.0027,0.0012


I am a clear example of Astyr/Cantabrian (first manifestations prior to the Bell Beaker who mixed with Ibero-Berbers who were in the north of the peninsula since the Neolithic), these ancestors of mine were later Romanized in bloody scenarios for which the Romans needed mobilize up to 7 legions operating at the same time, some of them lost their name due to the shame of losing their banner as is the case of the "Legio I Augusta" which was renamed "Vernacular", it is estimated that the number of soldiers deployed by the soldiers in these wars was 50 thousand soldiers and the conquest lasted 10 years.

After these events, permanent legions such as Legio VI and Legio VII (current León) were installed to control the population and extract gold from Berdigium.

These legions were the last operational in Hispania until the fall of the Roman Empire, and the Astures in fact amalgamated with the Romans and the populations that the Romans brought as service or domestic labor (many of them slaves).

The Romanization process was so strong that cavalry wings and infantry cohorts of Asturian and Cantabrian warriors were even created as aid, units that were destined to fight Hadrian's Wall, like the Asturian warrior Pintauis (tombstone in photo of below), closing the circle and paradoxically fighting against their ancient genetic relatives.

You've picked that model with certain samples. Anyway you getting Irish does not mean that the Irish descend from Spaniards.

If I used all the modern samples this is what I get.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.6797% / 0.01679733
49.2 Icelandic
42.2 Irish
6.4 Norwegian
1.4 Abkhasian_Gudauta
0.8 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.6873% / 0.01687253 | ADC: 0.25x RC
49.0 Irish
40.6 Icelandic
9.4 Danish
1.0 Andian_B

Do you think it is to be taken literally?

In the end this stuff has all been settled. There has been plenty of peer reviewed genetic studies. What you want is not reality.

Anyway you need someone like Cass to explain how calculators work. He has a much better grasp on these things.

[Rafael Passoni]

They added South Amerindian and Western Steppe: https://i.imgur.com/NOSRl53.png
I can't remember which results I got for these other ones:
https://i.imgur.com/vxvxHpx.png
https://i.imgur.com/vtCyRED.png
https://i.imgur.com/fXAoQSh.png

[R1b-L51]

You've picked that model with certain samples. Anyway you getting Irish does not mean that the Irish descend from Spaniards.

If I used all the modern samples this is what I get.

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.6797% / 0.01679733
49.2 Icelandic
42.2 Irish
6.4 Norwegian
1.4 Abkhasian_Gudauta
0.8 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 1.6873% / 0.01687253 | ADC: 0.25x RC
49.0 Irish
40.6 Icelandic
9.4 Danish
1.0 Andian_B

Do you think it is to be taken literally?

In the end this stuff has all been settled. There has been plenty of peer reviewed genetic studies. What you want is not reality.

Anyway you need someone like Cass to explain how calculators work. He has a much better grasp on these things.

For me it makes sense because it is clear that there are Irish mixed with Nordic invasions as well as Hispanic Celts mixed with Romans or with barbarian invasions depending on the area, I want to tell you that you are not 100% ancient Irish.

And even though you are Irish mixed with Vikings, you still maintain that genetic relationship with the L21 who arrived in the Bay of Biscay.

When I tell you that I am your ancestor it is for the simple fact that the L51 arrived in the Iberian peninsula before the L21, and apparently some L51 also arrived in Ireland before the L21.

L51->P312->L21

I know you're going to tell me that 23andme doesn't have enough technology to determine what type of R1b you are and that I must necessarily be DF27, but that theory of yours doesn't make much sense because I've seen people on 23andme come out classified as DF27, so obviously it can.

In addition, L51 is typical of the northwest Iberian Peninsula (including northern Portugal), Calabria and part of southern France.

If we take into account that the Asturians and Cantabrians came before the Bell Beakers, everything fits the hypothesis, what would not fit me so much is believing that I am DF27 because that is a typical haplogroup from Euskadi, Catalonia or the center of the peninsula, places where I do not have good genetic proximity.

The Romans also came to relate the Asturians, Cantabrians and Galicians with the Ligurians of the French southeast, so everything would fit.By the way, from the sampling of France, the ones I am closest to are the Ligurians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/where-did-r1b-l51-originate.27564/

[Grace O'Malley]

For me it makes sense because it is clear that there are Irish mixed with Nordic invasions as well as Hispanic Celts mixed with Romans or with barbarian invasions depending on the area, I want to tell you that you are not 100% ancient Irish.

And even though you are Irish mixed with Vikings, you still maintain that genetic relationship with the L21 who arrived in the Bay of Biscay.

When I tell you that I am your ancestor it is for the simple fact that the L51 arrived in the Iberian peninsula before the L21, and apparently some L51 also arrived in Ireland before the L21.

L51->P312->L21

I know you're going to tell me that 23andme doesn't have enough technology to determine what type of R1b you are and that I must necessarily be DF27, but that theory of yours doesn't make much sense because I've seen people on 23andme come out classified as DF27, so obviously it can.

In addition, L51 is typical of the northwest Iberian Peninsula (including northern Portugal), Calabria and part of southern France.

If we take into account that the Asturians and Cantabrians came before the Bell Beakers, everything fits the hypothesis, what would not fit me so much is believing that I am DF27 because that is a typical haplogroup from Euskadi, Catalonia or the center of the peninsula, places where I do not have good genetic proximity.

The Romans also came to relate the Asturians, Cantabrians and Galicians with the Ligurians of the French southeast, so everything would fit.By the way, from the sampling of France, the ones I am closest to are the Ligurians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/where-did-r1b-l51-originate.27564/

I think the connection with Irish and Spanish is Bell Beakers and also I find the Flight of the Wild Geese interesting. They were Irish soldiers that left Ireland because the British forced them out. They fought in a lot of European armies but mainly in France and Spain. Some Spanish would be descendants of these Wild Geese.

G25 finds it difficult to separate NW Europeans. I know I'm not 100% ancient Irish but I am mostly. Even with family names there is some Scottish in there, most likely distant English but also Norman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_of_the_Wild_Geese

[Grace O'Malley]

For me it makes sense because it is clear that there are Irish mixed with Nordic invasions as well as Hispanic Celts mixed with Romans or with barbarian invasions depending on the area, I want to tell you that you are not 100% ancient Irish.

And even though you are Irish mixed with Vikings, you still maintain that genetic relationship with the L21 who arrived in the Bay of Biscay.

When I tell you that I am your ancestor it is for the simple fact that the L51 arrived in the Iberian peninsula before the L21, and apparently some L51 also arrived in Ireland before the L21.

L51->P312->L21

I know you're going to tell me that 23andme doesn't have enough technology to determine what type of R1b you are and that I must necessarily be DF27, but that theory of yours doesn't make much sense because I've seen people on 23andme come out classified as DF27, so obviously it can.

In addition, L51 is typical of the northwest Iberian Peninsula (including northern Portugal), Calabria and part of southern France.

If we take into account that the Asturians and Cantabrians came before the Bell Beakers, everything fits the hypothesis, what would not fit me so much is believing that I am DF27 because that is a typical haplogroup from Euskadi, Catalonia or the center of the peninsula, places where I do not have good genetic proximity.

The Romans also came to relate the Asturians, Cantabrians and Galicians with the Ligurians of the French southeast, so everything would fit.By the way, from the sampling of France, the ones I am closest to are the Ligurians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/where-did-r1b-l51-originate.27564/

L21 arrived in the British Isles before Bell Beakers got to Iberia. You are just basing that on L51 being further up the tree but you are not tested below L51 so it is a false premise. 23&Me does tell you what type of R1b you are. It just doesn't tell you if you are DF27. If you were R1b-L21, R1b-U106 for example it will tell you. If you only got L51 that is very far back but on testing as you are Spanish you likely will be DF27 or under as that is the one that 23&M3 does not test for. You would need to get further testing to find your subclade but you are not L21.

https://i.postimg.cc/mgYGySYP/Screenshot-2025-02-02-124732.png
My brother for example is R1b-M222. This is his 23&Me result for his ydna.

https://i.postimg.cc/bNdJg4rs/Screenshot-2025-02-02-123646.png

https://i.postimg.cc/MGJpWTDQ/23-Me-M222.png

[R1b-L51]

L21 arrived in the British Isles before Bell Beakers got to Iberia. You are just basing that on L51 being further up the tree but you are not tested below L51 so it is a false premise. 23&Me does tell you what type of R1b you are. It just doesn't tell you if you are DF27. If you were R1b-L21, R1b-U106 for example it will tell you. If you only got L51 that is very far back but on testing as you are Spanish you likely will be DF27 or under as that is the one that 23&M3 does not test for. You would need to get further testing to find your subclade but you are not L21.

https://i.postimg.cc/mgYGySYP/Screenshot-2025-02-02-124732.png
My brother for example is R1b-M222. This is his 23&Me result for his ydna.

https://i.postimg.cc/bNdJg4rs/Screenshot-2025-02-02-123646.png

https://i.postimg.cc/MGJpWTDQ/23-Me-M222.png

I understand Grace, it seems you're right.

What type of company do you recommend to determine that point?

I have never seen myself as an Iberian R, perhaps Italic or of another type, yes, but I obviously have no certainty.

[Grace O'Malley]

I understand Grace, it seems you're right.

What type of company do you recommend to determine that point?

I have never seen myself as an Iberian R, perhaps Italic or of another type, yes, but I obviously have no certainty.

It depends on how much you want to spend? FTDNA is the most popular. The Big Y is the best test but that is expensive. I would make a thread here and ask other forum members. I've had my brother tested at FTDNA with the Big Y and that is constantly updated and you get matches. However it is an expensive investment. Other members might be able to suggest something more inexpensive especially if you want to confirm your subclade. It is a pity that 23&Me doesn't do this for DF27. I think it is more complicated to test than other ydna. Also I would join Genarchivist.net. They have a lot of knowledgeable people about ydna there.

[Beowulf]

It depends on how much you want to spend? FTDNA is the most popular. The Big Y is the best test but that is expensive. I would make a thread here and ask other forum members. I've had my brother tested at FTDNA with the Big Y and that is constantly updated and you get matches. However it is an expensive investment. Other members might be able to suggest something more inexpensive especially if you want to confirm your subclade. It is a pity that 23&Me doesn't do this for DF27. I think it is more complicated to test than other ydna. Also I would join Genarchivist.net. They have a lot of knowledgeable people about ydna there.


Maybe Cladefinder might work well on him though? It's free so is worth giving it a try :)

[R1b-L51]

Maybe Cladefinder might work well on him though? It's free so is worth giving it a try :)

https://i.postimg.cc/nLyq41YS/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-06-56-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

The clade FINGER speaks to me in matrix language, what does it mean to tell me?

[R1b-L51]

https://i.postimg.cc/nLyq41YS/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-06-56-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

The clade FINGER speaks to me in matrix language, what does it mean to tell me?

I clicked on L51, and then I clicked and all the R's came out, please someone explain this fucking madness to me

https://i.postimg.cc/PJ4ZknG0/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-08-14-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/BntFRzmw/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-10-10-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimg.cc/758b2K8g)

[R1b-L51]

It depends on how much you want to spend? FTDNA is the most popular. The Big Y is the best test but that is expensive. I would make a thread here and ask other forum members. I've had my brother tested at FTDNA with the Big Y and that is constantly updated and you get matches. However it is an expensive investment. Other members might be able to suggest something more inexpensive especially if you want to confirm your subclade. It is a pity that 23&Me doesn't do this for DF27. I think it is more complicated to test than other ydna. Also I would join Genarchivist.net. They have a lot of knowledgeable people about ydna there.

I don't look very DF27 at all, sometimes I get R-M269 and other times directly L-51, but never Df27

https://i.postimg.cc/J40cWtnq/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-29-40-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/hPK4J7xL/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-35-42-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't look very DF27 at all, sometimes I get R-M269 and other times directly L-51, but never Df27

https://i.postimg.cc/J40cWtnq/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-29-40-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/hPK4J7xL/Screenshot-2025-02-03-at-00-35-42-https-cladefinder-yseq-net.png (https://postimages.org/)

You would need to get tested to verify. That is the only way to know for sure. 23andMe tests for R1b-U106, R1b-U152, R1b-L21 etc. If you were one of these it would show up on your test.

[R1b-L51]

You would need to get tested to verify. That is the only way to know for sure. 23andMe tests for R1b-U106, R1b-U152, R1b-L21 etc. If you were one of these it would show up on your test.

That is, it could be R1b-L51, R1b-S21, R1b-DF27 and even R1b-Z2103?

Frankly, 23andme is rubbish, they hate us Spaniards because we expelled the Jews from Spain

[Grace O'Malley]

That is, it could be R1b-L51, R1b-S21, R1b-DF27 and even R1b-Z2103?

Frankly, 23andme is rubbish, they hate us Spaniards because we expelled the Jews from Spain

I'd predict you would be something much further down the tree than R1b-L51. Actually YSEQ might be the cheapest way to go to find out. You can also do the Big Y down the track if you were interested.

[R1b-L51]

I'd predict you would be something much further down the tree than R1b-L51. Actually YSEQ might be the cheapest way to go to find out. You can also do the Big Y down the track if you were interested.

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=42468

Well, I have to admit that it doesn't look bad, but for now since I don't have Galloperia (a disease of not being able to sleep if you don't know your ancestry) I'll wait for the stock market to equalize, friend.

[Grace O'Malley]

For me it makes sense because it is clear that there are Irish mixed with Nordic invasions as well as Hispanic Celts mixed with Romans or with barbarian invasions depending on the area, I want to tell you that you are not 100% ancient Irish.

And even though you are Irish mixed with Vikings, you still maintain that genetic relationship with the L21 who arrived in the Bay of Biscay.

When I tell you that I am your ancestor it is for the simple fact that the L51 arrived in the Iberian peninsula before the L21, and apparently some L51 also arrived in Ireland before the L21.

L51->P312->L21

I know you're going to tell me that 23andme doesn't have enough technology to determine what type of R1b you are and that I must necessarily be DF27, but that theory of yours doesn't make much sense because I've seen people on 23andme come out classified as DF27, so obviously it can.

In addition, L51 is typical of the northwest Iberian Peninsula (including northern Portugal), Calabria and part of southern France.

If we take into account that the Asturians and Cantabrians came before the Bell Beakers, everything fits the hypothesis, what would not fit me so much is believing that I am DF27 because that is a typical haplogroup from Euskadi, Catalonia or the center of the peninsula, places where I do not have good genetic proximity.

The Romans also came to relate the Asturians, Cantabrians and Galicians with the Ligurians of the French southeast, so everything would fit.By the way, from the sampling of France, the ones I am closest to are the Ligurians.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/where-did-r1b-l51-originate.27564/

Just adding this here because of the discussion. If you do decide to test further I would go with FTDNA but as I've said it is a big investment but worth it if you have an interest in these things. This is from Discovery on FTDNA and is the migration route of my paternal ydna.

https://i.postimg.cc/Nfb309nk/YDNARoute.png

https://i.postimg.cc/brZmNrS3/Ydnaroute3.png