Where did you guys get your G25 coordinates?

[Dr.Fiskero]

Hey guys, where did you get your G25 coordinates?

I’ve tried three websites so far and got different results:
Illustrative DNA: Not reliable,it made me Sub-Saharan African.
DNAGenics: 20% Yamnaya, 70% Farmer, 5% WHG.
MyTrueAncestry: 10% Yamnaya, 10% WHG, 80% Farmer.
Exploreyourdna: 12% Yamnaya, 6% WHG, 70% Farmer.

I now emailed Davidski himself, lol.

What about yours?

[Balboa]

IllustrativeDNA and GEDmatch are fine imo. just curious how much sub saharan did you get? IllustrativeDNA gives me higher Zagros/CHG, you could merge all these coordinates to make the most neutral results.

[Dušan]

From Illustrative DNA, before recent update.

[Gannicus]

I got my G25 coordinates from IllustrativeDNA before the update.
I just acquired G25 coordinates from Davidski for my merged DNA file. Almost the exact same as IllustrativeDNA I think the 4th decimal place onwards is slightly different.

Results with modern population individuals:

Distance to: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
0.02076956 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.02226172 English_Cornwall:HG00255
0.02284371 English:England9
0.02318953 English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.02357288 English:HG01791
0.02365669 Welsh:WalesL40
0.02387821 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.02423122 English:English5
0.02424532 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.02446806 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_95

Distance to: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
0.02078366 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.02226634 English_Cornwall:HG00255
0.02284682 English:England9
0.02320420 English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.02354969 English:HG01791
0.02367376 Welsh:WalesL40
0.02387257 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.02422370 English:English5
0.02426719 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.02448262 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_95

Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0048% / 0.00479627 | R4P
56.3 Irish
20.2 Dutch
20.1 Basque_Biscay
3.4 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0048% / 0.00481875 | R4P
57.5 Irish
22.6 Dutch
16.4 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest
3.5 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0054% / 0.00539324 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
68.4 Irish
11.0 Spanish_Alacant
9.6 Dutch
8.8 Spanish_Biscay
2.2 Spanish_Navarra

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0050% / 0.00497167 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.6 Irish
13.2 Basque_Biscay
13.1 Danish
7.0 Basque_Baztan
3.1 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0052% / 0.00518565 | R4P | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.6 Irish
20.7 Basque_Biscay
12.7 Danish
3.0 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0052% / 0.00520047 | R4P | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.7 Irish
20.6 Basque_Biscay
12.7 Danish
3.0 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0054% / 0.00539360 | R3P
77.8 Irish
20.1 Spanish_Biscay
2.1 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0055% / 0.00553798 | R3P
79.4 Irish
17.7 Basque_Spanish
2.9 BedouinB

Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0124% / 0.01243698 | ADC: 1x RC
25.9 Afrikaner
24.9 English
22.8 Irish
18.8 Welsh
7.6 French_Brittany

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0124% / 0.01244559 | ADC: 1x RC
25.9 Afrikaner
25.0 English
22.7 Irish
18.7 Welsh
7.7 French_Brittany

Results with modern population averages:

Distance to: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
0.02107652 French_Brittany
0.02231874 Welsh
0.02363839 English_Cornwall
0.02388497 English
0.02540890 Dutch
0.02570260 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02572276 Scottish
0.02579043 BelgianB
0.02634470 Irish
0.02720244 Orcadian

Distance to: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
0.02110369 French_Brittany
0.02232438 Welsh
0.02364012 English_Cornwall
0.02388708 English
0.02540977 Dutch
0.02573028 Scottish
0.02574047 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02580372 BelgianB
0.02636138 Irish
0.02720896 Orcadian



Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0171% / 0.01705198 | R4P
46.9 Irish
27.4 Icelandic
22.7 Spanish_Soria
3.0 Saudi

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0171% / 0.01708371 | R4P
46.8 Irish
27.5 Icelandic
22.7 Spanish_Soria
3.0 Saudi


Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0174% / 0.01740957 | ADC: 0.25x RC
68.6 Irish
19.0 Spanish_Soria
9.8 English_Cornwall
2.6 Sudan_Arab_Rashaayda

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0174% / 0.01743934 | ADC: 0.25x RC
68.4 Irish
19.0 Spanish_Soria
10.0 English_Cornwall
2.6 Sudan_Arab_Rashaayda

Target: Gannicus_mergedfile_IllustrativeDNA_scaled
Distance: 0.0188% / 0.01878672 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.6 Irish
29.3 French_Pas-de-Calais
22.1 French_Paris

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0188% / 0.01881525 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.7 Irish
29.0 French_Pas-de-Calais
22.3 French_Paris

[Dr.Fiskero]

IllustrativeDNA and GEDmatch are fine imo. just curious how much sub saharan did you get? IllustrativeDNA gives me higher Zagros/CHG, you could merge all these coordinates to make the most neutral results.

The problem with Illustrative is that i only get African ancestry ò_ò

Here the results:

Target: Dr.FiskeroIllustrativeDNA
Distance: 6.9661% / 0.06966122
24.0 Yoruba
16.4 Nganassan
13.4 Dinka
13.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 Levant_PPNB
11.2 Han
5.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.6 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 WHG

Target: Dr.FiskeroExploreYourDNA
Distance: 1.5717% / 0.01571723
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 WHG
3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.8 Levant_PPNB
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Target: Dr.FiskeroDNAGenics_scaled
Distance: 1.5462% / 0.01546219
35.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
32.4 TUR_Barcin_N
19.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.0 WHG
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.2 Levant_PPNB

Target: Dr.Fiskero_scaledTrueAncestry
Distance: 3.1312% / 0.03131223
77.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.2 WHG
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

[Balboa]

The problem with Illustrative is that i only get African ancestry ò_ò

Here the results:

Target: Dr.FiskeroIllustrativeDNA
Distance: 6.9661% / 0.06966122
24.0 Yoruba
16.4 Nganassan
13.4 Dinka
13.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 Levant_PPNB
11.2 Han
5.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.6 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 WHG

Target: Dr.FiskeroExploreYourDNA
Distance: 1.5717% / 0.01571723
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 WHG
3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.8 Levant_PPNB
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Target: Dr.FiskeroDNAGenics_scaled
Distance: 1.5462% / 0.01546219
35.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
32.4 TUR_Barcin_N
19.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.0 WHG
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.2 Levant_PPNB

Target: Dr.Fiskero_scaledTrueAncestry
Distance: 3.1312% / 0.03131223
77.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.2 WHG
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

you are using the raw coordinates for illustrative lol, look at the distance use the coordinates with the title "Scaled"

[Dr.Fiskero]

you are using the raw coordinates for illustrative lol, look at the distance use the coordinates with the title "Scaled"

I only have one set of coordinates, as that’s the only one available when I download them.

[unmoggable]

just do simulated k36

[Gannicus]

just do simulated k36

I'd recommend you get them from Davidski. My distances, fit numbers,and admixtures to some extent are noticeably different with simulated.

look at the difference here:

Distance to: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
0.02078366 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.02226634 English_Cornwall:HG00255
0.02284682 English:England9
0.02320420 English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.02354969 English:HG01791
0.02367376 Welsh:WalesL40
0.02387257 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.02422370 English:English5
0.02426719 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.02448262 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_95

Distance to: Global25_EurogenesK36
0.01419434 English_Cornwall:HG00259
0.01473936 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.01715356 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.01740551 Welsh:WalesCHF13
0.01802515 Welsh:WalesL44
0.01861537 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.01864477 English:English5
0.01888830 Irish:Irish51
0.01896639 Welsh:WAL001
0.01915040 English_Cornwall:HG00160




Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0050% / 0.00497167 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.6 Irish
13.2 Basque_Biscay
13.1 Danish
7.0 Basque_Baztan
3.1 BedouinB

Target: Global25_EurogenesK36
Distance: 0.0031% / 0.00313121 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.8 Irish
6.9 Basque_Soule
6.7 German
5.6 Italian_Aosta_Valley

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0048% / 0.00482199 | R4P
56.8 Irish
20.0 Basque_Biscay
19.8 Dutch
3.4 BedouinB

Target: Global25_EurogenesK36
Distance: 0.0027% / 0.00267445 | R4P
77.7 Irish
8.6 German
7.2 Basque_Soule
6.5 Italian_Aosta_Valley

[ScandinavianCelt]

Both IllustrativeDNA and DNAGenics.

I enjoy the "raw" calc varieties though, using raw results on K36, K13, MDLP K16, MDLP K23b, Dodecad k12b, etc.

[Wend-Kruzek]

I only have one set of coordinates, as that’s the only one available when I download them.

I assume you have new coordinates from illustrative. This is only usable with their- DeepAncestry_Modern_Averages_Spreadsheet.txt
Old illustrative coordinates are like Davidski.
The closest, at least according to PCA on Vahduo is DNAgenics. You can also play with others.

[Dr.Fiskero]

I assume you have new coordinates from illustrative. This is only usable with their- DeepAncestry_Modern_Averages_Spreadsheet.txt
Old illustrative coordinates are like Davidski.
The closest, at least according to PCA on Vahduo is DNAgenics. You can also play with others.

Yeah, unfortunately, I have those new results… I opened a ticket with them but haven’t received a response yet. I also sent my raw data to Davidski.

[ScandinavianCelt]

Hey guys, where did you get your G25 coordinates?

I’ve tried three websites so far and got different results:
Illustrative DNA: Not reliable,it made me Sub-Saharan African.
DNAGenics: 20% Yamnaya, 70% Farmer, 5% WHG.
MyTrueAncestry: 10% Yamnaya, 10% WHG, 80% Farmer.
Exploreyourdna: 12% Yamnaya, 6% WHG, 70% Farmer.

I now emailed Davidski himself, lol.

What about yours?

Can you explain how illustrative DNA made you sub-Saharan African?

[unmoggable]

I'd recommend you get them from Davidski. My distances, fit numbers,and admixtures to some extent are noticeably different with simulated.

look at the difference here:

Distance to: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
0.02078366 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.02226634 English_Cornwall:HG00255
0.02284682 English:England9
0.02320420 English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.02354969 English:HG01791
0.02367376 Welsh:WalesL40
0.02387257 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.02422370 English:English5
0.02426719 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.02448262 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_95

Distance to: Global25_EurogenesK36
0.01419434 English_Cornwall:HG00259
0.01473936 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.01715356 English_Cornwall:HG00243
0.01740551 Welsh:WalesCHF13
0.01802515 Welsh:WalesL44
0.01861537 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.01864477 English:English5
0.01888830 Irish:Irish51
0.01896639 Welsh:WAL001
0.01915040 English_Cornwall:HG00160




Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0050% / 0.00497167 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.6 Irish
13.2 Basque_Biscay
13.1 Danish
7.0 Basque_Baztan
3.1 BedouinB

Target: Global25_EurogenesK36
Distance: 0.0031% / 0.00313121 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.8 Irish
6.9 Basque_Soule
6.7 German
5.6 Italian_Aosta_Valley

Target: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
Distance: 0.0048% / 0.00482199 | R4P
56.8 Irish
20.0 Basque_Biscay
19.8 Dutch
3.4 BedouinB

Target: Global25_EurogenesK36
Distance: 0.0027% / 0.00267445 | R4P
77.7 Irish
8.6 German
7.2 Basque_Soule
6.5 Italian_Aosta_Valley

its nearly identical, and charging $30 for a string of numbers is retarded, this shit is basically astrology

[Gannicus]

its nearly identical, and charging $30 for a string of numbers is retarded, this shit is basically astrology
Davidski charges 15$ and it’s a noticeable difference especially with the fit numbers. I wouldn’t say it’s astrology if one picks relevant populations that are part of his or her ancestry. If I pick relevant ancient populations I do see correlation. But sometimes not especially when averages are involved and accounting for overlap between populations. The reality is that G25 is a principal component analysis based tool, which is a legitimate method in population genetics. It's not as cut and dry as admixture calculators, but it's also not baseless.

[Wend-Kruzek]

Can you explain how illustrative DNA made you sub-Saharan African?

I would also be interested in that. !!!
According to the new G25, I am closer to the Germans.

[Dr.Fiskero]

I just got my coordinates from Davidsky, and they’re very similar to the ones I got on ExploreYourDNA.

[Beowulf]

From illustrativeDNA before their update.

I also have DNA GEnics one's too but they are odd, they model me as 1/4 Tatar :wtf

[BrianBoru]

Davidski charges 15$ and it’s a noticeable difference especially with the fit numbers. I wouldn’t say it’s astrology if one picks relevant populations that are part of his or her ancestry. If I pick relevant ancient populations I do see correlation. But sometimes not especially when averages are involved and accounting for overlap between populations. The reality is that G25 is a principal component analysis based tool, which is a legitimate method in population genetics. It's not as cut and dry as admixture calculators, but it's also not baseless.

I find it too fine grained for modern populations. It had my closest populations as Dutch and Norwegian where as AncestryDNA and LivingDNA havve me as about half Irish so it would logically come out Scottish on a PCA chart even if I am not literally Scottish. IllustrativeDNA had to intervene and say my number closest population was Scottish and now with their update it is Orcadian then mainland Scottish. I think the best way to model one's ancestry, if you are of European descent, is to make an Iron-Age plus medieval age calculator from the reference sheets.

[Damião de Góis]

I can't run scaled G25 models with Illustrative DNA G25 coordinates, i don't know if their raw data is unscaled:

Illustrative DNA:
Distance to: ILL_DNA_Rawdata
0.18825772 Berber_Algeria
0.19772267 Moroccan_South
0.20700102 Ethiopian_Afar
0.20934690 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.21004801 Eritrean
0.21123384 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.21201306 Ethiopian_Agaw
0.21314486 Madagascar_Vezo
0.21369465 Ethiopian_Jew
0.21379168 Ethiopian_Oromo
0.21856550 Madagascar_Temoro
0.22164100 Madagascar_Mikea
0.22438617 Ethiopian_Wolayta
0.22746496 Somali
0.23341700 Somali_Kenya
0.23758564 Moroccan
0.24202315 Tunisian_Douz
0.24214983 Rendille
0.24220582 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.24428742 Algerian
0.24536304 Fulani
0.24616365 Iraqw
0.24800379 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.24837527 Saharawi
0.25420089 Libyan

Original:
Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.02256008 Spanish_Andalucia
0.02488614 Spanish_Extremadura
0.02507821 Spanish_Galicia
0.02589305 Spanish_Alacant
0.02597823 Portuguese
0.02627439 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.02845471 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02973615 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03028934 Spanish_Valencia
0.03034411 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03062782 Spanish_Murcia
0.03078100 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03140340 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03148799 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03172354 Spanish_Asturias
0.03199310 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03214734 Spanish_Baleares
0.03237051 Spanish_Menorca
0.03258607 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03279146 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03296248 Spanish_Penedes
0.03384714 Spanish_Aragon
0.03456525 Spanish_Girona
0.03470729 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03485722 Spanish_Lleida

So it's clearly not the same.

[Gannicus]

I find it too fine grained for modern populations. It had my closest populations as Dutch and Norwegian where as AncestryDNA and LivingDNA havve me as about half Irish so it would logically come out Scottish on a PCA chart even if I am not literally Scottish. IllustrativeDNA had to intervene and say my number closest population was Scottish and now with their update it is Orcadian then mainland Scottish. I think the best way to model one's ancestry, if you are of European descent, is to make an Iron-Age plus medieval age calculator from the reference sheets.

Using averages sometimes can produce weird outcomes, I think. I prefer modeling with Iron age samples (sometimes with bronze age samples) myself. But I do try to keep medieval samples out because during the Medieval period people started mixing like Germanic populations admixing with the locals in Gaul and Britannia. Early medieval can also reflect mediterranean gene flow into northern Europe as well.

[Gannicus]

I can't run scaled G25 models with Illustrative DNA G25 coordinates, i don't know if their raw data is unscaled:

Illustrative DNA:
Distance to: ILL_DNA_Rawdata
0.18825772 Berber_Algeria
0.19772267 Moroccan_South
0.20700102 Ethiopian_Afar
0.20934690 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.21004801 Eritrean
0.21123384 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.21201306 Ethiopian_Agaw
0.21314486 Madagascar_Vezo
0.21369465 Ethiopian_Jew
0.21379168 Ethiopian_Oromo
0.21856550 Madagascar_Temoro
0.22164100 Madagascar_Mikea
0.22438617 Ethiopian_Wolayta
0.22746496 Somali
0.23341700 Somali_Kenya
0.23758564 Moroccan
0.24202315 Tunisian_Douz
0.24214983 Rendille
0.24220582 Berber_MAR_ERR
0.24428742 Algerian
0.24536304 Fulani
0.24616365 Iraqw
0.24800379 Berber_MAR_TIZ
0.24837527 Saharawi
0.25420089 Libyan

Original:
Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.02256008 Spanish_Andalucia
0.02488614 Spanish_Extremadura
0.02507821 Spanish_Galicia
0.02589305 Spanish_Alacant
0.02597823 Portuguese
0.02627439 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.02845471 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02973615 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03028934 Spanish_Valencia
0.03034411 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03062782 Spanish_Murcia
0.03078100 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03140340 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03148799 Spanish_Cataluna
0.03172354 Spanish_Asturias
0.03199310 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03214734 Spanish_Baleares
0.03237051 Spanish_Menorca
0.03258607 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03279146 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03296248 Spanish_Penedes
0.03384714 Spanish_Aragon
0.03456525 Spanish_Girona
0.03470729 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03485722 Spanish_Lleida

So it's clearly not the same.

The IllustrativeDNA update basically separated with G25. They apparently developed a different 25 coordinate system that is not compatible with G25 coordinates. Your new coordinates only work on the coordinates produced by illustrativedna for the modern population averages. And you can download them.

Your new coordinates from IllustrativeDNA only work on these:

https://api.illustrativedna.com/datasheet/DeepAncestry_Modern_Averages_Spreadsheet.txt

So far all I can see for download are modern. Maybe ancient averages later on.

[Rafael Passoni]

Illustrative DNA

[Rhegion]

I just got my coordinates from Davidsky, and they’re very similar to the ones I got on ExploreYourDNA.

Hi, have you directly contacted Davidsky to get the coordinates? I used to purchase them through IllustrativeDNA, now i need them for other members of my family and friends who have undergone genetic testing. Thanks.

[Dr.Fiskero]

Hi, have you directly contacted Davidsky to get the coordinates? I used to purchase them through IllustrativeDNA, now i need them for other members of my family and friends who have undergone genetic testing. Thanks.

Yes, you can contact him here: eurogenesblog@gmail.com. He’ll then direct you to an associate for payment and sending your raw data. But just to reiterate, ExploreYourDNA provides almost identical coordinates for just €2.50.