How Old Prussian were the East Prussian Germans?

[Peterski]

Here is an interesting article about this subject:

In English: https://www.many-roads.com/tips-opinions-pointers/german-prussian-genealogy-aids/so-you-think-your-ancestor-was-prussian/population-development-across-eastern-prussia/

In German: https://web.archive.org/web/20141026084949/http://www.prussen.org/besiedelung-bevoelkerungsentwicklung-ostpreussen.htm

And here are some graphs which I made, one of my sources was the article posted above but I also used several other sources:

1. Estimated percentage of each ancestry within the total population pool throughout time:

https://i.imgur.com/2Wv9nUh.png

2. And size of the population during 600 years from the early 1200s to the early 1800s:

https://i.imgur.com/ZaFTjh0.png

This estimate is rather quite optimistic for Old Prussians, though - I actually expected to arrive at a lower figure of around 25% percent, but not lower than 20%. So consider 32% or 1/3 as the high estimate of Old Prussian ancestry (but probable one according to this model), 25% as the medium estimate and 20% as the low estimate.

[ScandinavianCelt]

Funny you posted this as I was thinking of these people this morning due to the fact that using individual merged data all 22 chromosomes against the new Moriopoulos all Modern Samples, my closest distance to any sample on any chromosome is this:


Distance to: chr5
0.01884882 German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg_(n=1)

[Dušan]

Out of three samples from east Prussia, two do not have Germanic admixture. Quite interesting.



Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.01412339 Lithuanian_PA
0.01424958 Lithuanian_VA
0.01567148 Belarusian
0.01824042 Russian_Smolensk
0.01868316 Russian_Pskov

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.01263193 Polish
0.01388006 Polish_Kashubian
0.01424122 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.01607908 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.01614764 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg
0.01089913 Swedish
0.01666737 German_Hamburg
0.01801042 Danish
0.02063698 Norwegian
0.02207399 Icelandic




Target: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
Distance: 1.0426% / 0.01042615 | R5P
29.8 Latvian
24.8 Russian_Smolensk
22.0 Lithuanian_VA
16.0 Lithuanian_RA
7.4 Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Target: German_East_Prussia_Masuria
Distance: 0.2642% / 0.00264184 | R5P
26.4 Lithuanian_VA
22.6 Russian_Smolensk
20.0 French_Paris
17.6 Latvian
13.4 Estonian

Target: German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg
Distance: 0.3037% / 0.00303691 | R5P
62.4 Danish
20.6 Latvian
11.4 Icelandic
3.6 Basque_Baztan
2.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz

[Peterski]

Out of three samples from east Prussia, two do not have Germanic admixture. Quite interesting.

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.01412339 Lithuanian_PA
0.01424958 Lithuanian_VA
0.01567148 Belarusian
0.01824042 Russian_Smolensk
0.01868316 Russian_Pskov

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.01263193 Polish
0.01388006 Polish_Kashubian
0.01424122 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.01607908 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.01614764 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg
0.01089913 Swedish
0.01666737 German_Hamburg
0.01801042 Danish
0.02063698 Norwegian
0.02207399 Icelandic

That's because the Masurian sample is in fact a Polish Masurian and the Memelland sample is in fact a Prussian Lithuanian.

I don't know who labelled them as ethnic Germans when they are not.

[Dušan]

That's because the Masurian sample is in fact a Polish Masurian and the Memelland sample is in fact a Prussian Lithuanian.

I don't know who labelled them as ethnic Germans when they are not.

Oh, I thought these 2 samples are also ethnic German from former East Prussia.

From here
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?392497-Which-German-region-will-you-match-G25-Scaled-Calculator

[leachim_x]

That's because the Masurian sample is in fact a Polish Masurian and the Memelland sample is in fact a Prussian Lithuanian.

I don't know who labelled them as ethnic Germans when they are not.

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it speculation or do you really have background information about theese samples?
I have a friend of mine with 2 (or lets say "~1,5") grandparends from East Prussia. And he is like 50% Lithuanian on gedmatch calculators (with standard spreadsheets). I strongly assume that the Lithuanian samples also contain a lot of Prussian dna or other from German settlers?! But not sure about that

[rothaer]

That's because the Masurian sample is in fact a Polish Masurian and the Memelland sample is in fact a Prussian Lithuanian.

I don't know who labelled them as ethnic Germans when they are not.

They are. I suggest to look up what is an ethnicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity

Considering that you in person are (undisputedly) a Pole, you should be pretty aware that genetics are not defing an ethnicity. :)

[Opie]

you should be pretty aware that genetics are not defing an ethnicity. :)

Indeed.

But still it’s problematic. People from Trabzon and Rize is still viewed as Pontic dönmes rather than ethnic Turkish and they are the only people who have zero Turkic genes.

[Ranger0075]

I am pretty ignorant about Prussia, but I know I have an ancestor listed as German who moved to my country in 1828, he was born in 1808 so I thought he was Prussian, I dont know which city he came from, but his name was Andreas Lange, first protestant christian in my city, his sons were responsible to create the first protestant church in my town.

[Anatolya]

Indeed.

But still it’s problematic. People from Trabzon and Rize is still viewed as Pontic dönmes rather than ethnic Turkish and they are the only people who have zero Turkic genes.

That's a very straightforward approach. Turkish samples from Trabzon have variable amount of East Eurasian depending on the town, Easterners (i.e. Oflu, Çaykaralı) often score zero or less than 3% and Westerners tend to score more in between 4-6%, even up to 10% in Şalpazarı (due to being a Chepni settlement). There are some Turkish samples from other provinces like Erzurum that score zero East Eurasian on the other hand, having a very Armenian or South Caucasian with minor Upper Mesopotamian profile, but nobody perceives them as dönme for some reason.

Trabzon's people being dönme is a bias in general because there's a certain group that owns them as well as people have a knowledge of the region's history *in some degree*. It's the same how people in general think "Egeli" is kinda equal to Muslim Greek/Rum, but in reality Aegean Turks often have higher East Eurasian than average.

Please check the below:
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/1hhogoy/updated_results_from_trabzon/
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/1ho5paf/trabzonrize_results/
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/comments/1c6i6kk/turkish_results_from_trabzon_salpazari/

[Peterski]

They are. I suggest to look up what is an ethnicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity

You told me recently (via WhatsApp) about "politicallly German" and "Kulturdeutsche" categories.

So if I understand correctly these aren't real ethnic Germans but if anything just "Kulturdeustche".

[Wend-Kruzek]

My little insight.
It is true that Germans have always been reserved and mixed mostly with each other. And this maintained the genetic profile. You can also see it in the old Hungarian Empire./German enclaves/. A good example is the Catherine Germans.
It is interesting that the Germans who came to Germany from Russia after 1989 to Deggendorf speak Russian among themselves and adopted the character. They have the label of Russians./culture aspect/. From a genetic point of view, they certainly have higher homogeneity./ethnic aspect Germans/ By that I mean that ethnicity certainly has at least something to do with genetics. Especially when it comes to Germans.:)

ps:Google Translate helped.:coffee:

[Fabricius]

Out of three samples from east Prussia, two do not have Germanic admixture. Quite interesting.



Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
0.01412339 Lithuanian_PA
0.01424958 Lithuanian_VA
0.01567148 Belarusian
0.01824042 Russian_Smolensk
0.01868316 Russian_Pskov

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Masuria
0.01263193 Polish
0.01388006 Polish_Kashubian
0.01424122 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.01607908 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.01614764 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr

Distance to: German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg
0.01089913 Swedish
0.01666737 German_Hamburg
0.01801042 Danish
0.02063698 Norwegian
0.02207399 Icelandic




Target: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
Distance: 1.0426% / 0.01042615 | R5P
29.8 Latvian
24.8 Russian_Smolensk
22.0 Lithuanian_VA
16.0 Lithuanian_RA
7.4 Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Target: German_East_Prussia_Masuria
Distance: 0.2642% / 0.00264184 | R5P
26.4 Lithuanian_VA
22.6 Russian_Smolensk
20.0 French_Paris
17.6 Latvian
13.4 Estonian

Target: German_East_Prussia_Braunsberg
Distance: 0.3037% / 0.00303691 | R5P
62.4 Danish
20.6 Latvian
11.4 Icelandic
3.6 Basque_Baztan
2.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz


That's because the Masurian sample is in fact a Polish Masurian and the Memelland sample is in fact a Prussian Lithuanian.

I don't know who labelled them as ethnic Germans when they are not.

Interesting discussion, but I respectfully wanted to check it out too, as I found the middle of our friend Dušan's conclusion problematic.

My dears, you can use all possible samples if you want, but you will get bizarre results like "Spanish_Pais_Vasco" or "Basque".
And there is a risk of overlapping, since in fact the Prussian of Memelland was more Balto-Slavic than Germanic.

So I did my tests and was shocked. It really seems that the Prussian of Memel was zero percent German!


Target: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
Distance: 2.2983% / 0.02298269
4 sources
58.6 Lithuanian_(average)
24.2 Polish_Kashubian
17.2 Belarusian

Target: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
Distance: 2.2679% / 0.02267887 [ADC: NO; AGGREGATE: YES]
9 sources (6 Lithuanians samples)
66.8 Lithuanian
19.0 Polish_Kashubian
14.2 Belarusian

Target: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
Distance: 2.2679% / 0.02267887 [ADC: NO; AGGREGATE: NO]
9 sources (6 Lithuanians samples)
41.0 Lithuanian:_VA
19.6 Lithuanian:_VZ
19.0 Polish_Kashubian
14.2 Belarusian
6.2 Lithuanian:_PZ


However, I can make an objection: if Kashubian Polish is part German, how can we say that Memel Prussian is only Polish-Lithuanian and not German-Polish and Lithuanian?


If I remove Kashubian from the list:

Target: German_East_Prussia_Memelland
Distance: 2.3267% / 0.02326743
74.4 Lithuanian_(average)
13.4 Belarusian
12.2 German_East


Below you can see that Kashubian is more Baltic-German (lato sensu!) than Polish. But maybe I unintentionally used the worst sample for Polish, anyway... this the result:

Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 1.0211% / 0.01021146
47.2 Lithuanian_(average)
41.0 German_East
11.8 Polish_Silesian


If I replace "East German" because it's too Slavic with "North German"; what if I replace "Silesian Polish", because it might be too Germanic, with the "polish" sample (a more oriental one would be nice); then we have:


Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 1.1056% / 0.01105616 | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.4 Lithuanian_(average)
33.6 German_Hamburg
24.0 Polish


Distance to: Polish_Kashubian
0.01517439 Polish
0.02418516 Belarusian
0.03411774 Lithuanian_(average)
0.04047731 German_Hamburg


Note that in the last two calculations the "Belarusian" did not appear.

[Fabricius]

...

Thanks for the graphics, Polish cousin!
I really appreciated it!

[Fabricius]

Well, not every marriage centuries ago was arranged, love really transcends cultural details, when they are minimal (e.g.: between Europeans, probably the same religion, etc.).

Gentlemen, I believe that this apparent tribal or ethnic isolationism is rather romanticized wishful thinking.
With all due respect.

I'm also romantic, but more in the sense of the power of love. xD

[Fabricius]

How did you come to this conclusion? Is it speculation or do you really have background information about theese samples?
I have a friend of mine with 2 (or lets say "~1,5") grandparends from East Prussia. And he is like 50% Lithuanian on gedmatch calculators (with standard spreadsheets). I strongly assume that the Lithuanian samples also contain a lot of Prussian dna or other from German settlers?! But not sure about that

Yes, curious confusion here, since initially the topic was about the Old Prussians, Baltic people like the Lithuanians.

We cannot forget that the Prussians did not disappear, but were assimilated. The Teutonic Order did not destroy them and the Prussian language was spoken until the 18th century. And before the last Prussian speaker many already spoke German and probably already saw themselves as equals in society, intermarrying.

[Fabricius]

genetics are not defing an ethnicity. :)

Yes, anyway I don't think the statement that East Prussians were necessarily zero percent German in genetic terms is correct, as I tried to argue by playing the G25 game.

[Wend-Kruzek]

My opinion.

-first thing.
What samples will we use! We ask. ! Are those samples relevant?
I know I know nothing. ...!:wink
-second thing.
Europeans and especially the middle are a complete mixture. Austria-Hungary was called the cauldron of nations.
Only what I know for the last 300 years I have ancestors from - Slovakia, Germany Bohemia, Moravia, Croatia, France, Hungary
and I have a Polish surname.:crazy::crazy::yippee

and I enjoy it

[JerryS.]

Some old screen shots I found of great great grandparents. Born 2 years apart but listed as Germany, and Prussia Germany. Go figure.

[rothaer]

You told me recently (via WhatsApp) about "politicallly German" and "Kulturdeutsche" categories.

So if I understand correctly these aren't real ethnic Germans but if anything just "Kulturdeustche".

Yes, this (Kulturdeutsche) was a category used in the 1920s in the context of the population of the Memelland. They were considered not yet really Germans but Germans in becoming so to say. Some intermediate state between Germans and Lithuanians that were in a process of moving towards Germanhood. Of course, such things were regularly pre stages of developing a full German ethnicity (Germanisation). The respective applies to Polonisations etc. I guess you could label Wladyslaw Anders being politically Polish or a Kulturpole.

[Wend-Kruzek]

Yes, this (Kulturdeutsche) was a category used in the 1920s in the context of the population of the Memelland. They were considered not yet really Germans but Germans in becoming so to say. Some intermediate state between Germans and Lithuanians that were in a process of moving towards Germanhood. Of course, such things were regularly pre stages of developing a full German ethnicity (Germanisation). The respective applies to Polonisations etc. I guess you could label Wladyslaw Anders being politically Polish or a Kulturpole.

well . culture first (Kulturdeutsche) and...........https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation ;)..... and Wladyslaw Anders is a bad example . About the same as Sandor Petofi

But it doesn't matter. there is another cultural revolution in the west.

nice day