Unpacking Genetic Ties: A G25 Comparison of Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians

[Lard]

Given the notable autosomal genetic similarity between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, one might expect the internet to be brimming with detailed comparisons of their genetic profiles using tools like G25. Surprisingly, this isn’t the case.
Intrigued by the scarcity of such analyses, I decided to create a quick dataset to explore how these two groups align.
Here are the findings.
To me, the genetic profile of Russian Jews resembles a population of Southern Italians who, after a period of relative isolation and inbreeding, exchanged some of their Greco-Roman ancestry for Slavic influences during their eastward migration.
What’s your take on this interpretation?


https://i.ibb.co/9H2ZjWWF/Russian-Jews.png

[ScandinavianCelt]

see how these guys fit into your calc:

DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13861,0.103579,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.051357,0.006463,-0.017012,0.008695,-0.000462,0.006954,0.017677,0.011042,-0.006894,0.002379,-0.013762,-0.005836,0.009414,0.008345,-0.001014,-0.005154,0.002251,-0.005989,0.004451,0.001602,-0.00253,0.002515
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13863,0.093335,0.132019,-0.020742,-0.064277,0.011079,-0.016455,-0.00423,-0.001846,0.01268,0.024602,0.007632,-0.003447,0.005203,-0.004542,-0.007465,-0.003713,-0.003129,-0.002914,-0.004902,-0.005378,-0.006239,-0.014838,-0.003574,-0.001687,-0.006586
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13864,0.094473,0.151314,-0.019233,-0.052972,0.010463,-0.014502,-0.00188,-0.001615,0.018612,0.024784,0.005684,-3e-04,0.003271,0.003853,0.002714,0.001193,-0.01369,0.003421,0.003645,-0.012881,0.00262,0.002597,-0.002711,0.006266,-0.003113
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13865,0.092197,0.142174,-0.014331,-0.059755,0.020619,-0.026774,-0.00611,-0.000923,0.01268,0.02041,0.00406,-0.000599,0.00446,0.003441,0.002036,-0.007027,-0.011474,0.004307,0.000126,-0.012506,-0.002745,-0.003957,0.008134,-0.005422,-0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I13870,0.094473,0.148267,-0.01697,-0.057494,0.008001,-0.024542,-0.00282,-0.000692,0.019839,0.008018,0.005034,0.004946,0.016 204,-0.004679,-0.002036,0.007027,0.006389,-0.000887,-0.004902,-0.014882,-0.00025,0.002102,-0.008258,0.006989,0.003353
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14737,0.08992,0.147252,-0.017725,-0.048773,0.008617,-0.028726,-0.00517,0.001385,0.013908,0.020228,0.00341,-0.001649,0.008176,0.007844,-0.012215,-0.0179,-0.017732,-0.002407,-0.000754,0.006878,-0.000873,-0.001113,0.005916,-0.002048,0.003832
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14739,0.08992,0.144205,-0.018102,-0.063631,0.01508,-0.03012,0.00235,-0.006923,0.007567,0.01713,0.001624,0.001349,0.0099 6,-0.001927,-0.002172,-0.00305,-0.008214,0.000887,-0.01169,0.001251,0.000998,-0.001978,0.008134,-0.008194,-0.000838
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14741,0.101303,0.145221,-0.017348,-0.053941,0.011387,-0.020638,0.00752,0.020999,0.033951,0.021504,0.0038 97,0.007194,0.005203,-0.00289,-0.007193,0.001458,0.014081,0.002154,-0.005908,0.003377,-0.009733,0.005812,-0.002465,0.025305,-0.009221
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14851,0.097888,0.141159,-0.015839,-0.056848,0.011079,-0.01255,-0.00235,-0.009923,0.001841,0.016037,0.013153,0,0.006838,0.0 03716,-0.005429,-0.000265,-0.013299,-0.006588,-0.004525,-0.002001,-0.004617,-0.004328,-0.003204,-0.004458,0.002275
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14852,0.103579,0.148267,-0.016593,-0.062662,0.005232,-0.022032,-0.001175,-0.018461,0.010431,0.022597,-0.001624,0.003747,0.001784,0.001789,-0.008686,0.002121,0.002477,0.004054,-0.009679,-0.004752,-0.00262,-0.018548,0.006779,0.012652,0.007185
DEU_MA_Erfurt1:I14903,0.103579,0.146236,-0.021496,-0.051034,0.004001,-0.015897,0.000235,-0.003692,0.005318,0.024966,0.002111,-0.009292,-0.000595,-0.002752,-0.010179,0.000398,-0.002217,0.003674,-0.002388,0.002876,-0.00549,-0.00371,0.002711,0.000843,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13862,0.110408,0.122879,0.00264,-0.010982,0.010771,-0.005578,0.00235,0.002769,0.00859,0.009294,0.00682 ,-0.003147,-0.003419,0.010046,-0.011943,-0.008486,-0.004955,0.00038,-0.00088,-0.006003,-0.007986,-0.000866,0.008751,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13866,0.106994,0.118817,0.006034,-0.014212,0.016311,-0.010319,-0.00282,0.004615,0.001636,0.014943,-0.006333,-0.000899,0.003717,0.00523,-0.012758,-0.003713,0.008996,0.003927,-0.003142,0.003877,-0.007362,-0.001607,0.001109,0.006386,-0.002754
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I13868,0.105855,0.127957,0.012822,-0.018088,0.024312,-0.002231,-0.00188,0.000231,0.01268,0.007289,0.002111,0.00719 4,0.005649,0.010184,-0.001357,-0.004375,0.009388,-0.000507,-0.004022,0.008254,-0.001497,-0.004328,0.0053,-0.003856,0.000599
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14738,0.112685,0.126941,0.012822,-0.013889,0.01508,-0.002789,-0.00188,0.002077,0.001227,0.008201,-0.006333,-0.002847,0.006541,0.007294,-0.00475,0.001061,0.006128,-0.000127,0.000126,-0.004252,0.002121,0.004081,0.006779,0.004217,-0.005987
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14740,0.100164,0.121864,0.014708,-0.011305,0.011694,-0.004462,-0.00705,0.003231,0.005113,0.006743,-0.007145,-0.003147,0.002973,0.008945,-0.012351,0.000133,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.000377,-0.004877,-0.00549,-0.003215,0.000863,-0.003012,0.00467
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14847,0.103579,0.127957,0.001508,-0.018734,0.014156,-0.00502,0.00094,-0.001615,0.002863,0.007289,0.003248,-0.00045,0.004014,0.004679,-0.001493,-0.019888,-0.006128,0.004814,0.003645,-0.006378,-0.004492,-0.00272,0.003451,0.00253,-0.005029
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14850,0.103579,0.140143,0.013199,-0.017119,0.01908,-0.006136,-0.000235,0.011307,0.005113,0.004556,0.000974,-0.002098,-0.000743,0.007156,-0.004886,-0.012198,-0.008996,-0.003167,0.005782,-0.010005,-0.000749,-0.001484,0.012078,0.005543,0.002634
DEU_MA_Erfurt2:I14904,0.106994,0.116786,0.007165,-0.018411,0.023389,-0.008367,0.004935,0.010384,0.00225,0.016583,-0.004709,0.009591,0.001933,0.008395,0.000814,-0.008486,-0.022296,-0.002914,-0.001383,0,0.002246,-0.008903,0.002958,0.001687,0.003233
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I13867,0.093335,0.13405,-0.002263,-0.049096,0.014772,-0.018686,-0.00658,-0.006231,0.011249,0.016948,0.008119,-0.001649,0.006987,0.000275,-0.003936,0.001193,0.001565,-0.000887,-0.004777,0.001626,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.007641,0.007953,0.000958
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14736,0.092197,0.139128,0.001131,-0.047804,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00141,0.001846,0.00859,0.018041,0.00568 4,0.002398,0.010555,-0.000138,0.006922,0.008884,0.01708,0.004181,0,-0.004252,-0.000499,0.004451,-0.00037,-0.002048,-0.008263
DEU_MA_Erfurt3:I14897,0.09675,0.142174,-0.003017,-0.039406,0.005232,-0.012271,0.013396,0.006231,0.005113,0.013121,0.000 812,-0.001049,0.000595,0.012937,-0.001629,0.001061,-0.021774,0.003294,0.005279,-0.014007,0.001373,-0.011871,0.0053,-0.006025,-0.006347

[Lard]

Hey, thanks for tossing those G25 Erfurt samples my way. I’ve taken a look, and I’m not entirely convinced by the usual labeling here. You’ve got these “DEU_MA_Erfurt” samples split into Erfurt1, Erfurt2, and Erfurt3, often tagged as reflecting different mixes of Middle Eastern (ME) and European (EU) ancestry. But honestly, when I eyeball the coordinates, even the so-called “Erfurt1” group—supposedly the most ME-shifted—still screams Southern European more than anything distinctly Levantine. The values don’t look all that different from what you’d expect in, say, a Sicilian or Calabrian profile. I’d argue they should be relabeled “Erfurt SU” (Southern Europe) rather than pretending there’s a stark ME component here. And let’s not forget: all these Erfurt samples, whether labeled EU or ME, still cluster solidly within the broader European genetic cohort—not some outlier Middle Eastern one.
Also, a quick heads-up: my original post was riffing on population averages to sketch out that Southern Italian-to-Russian Jew trajectory. You’re throwing individual samples at me here, which is cool, but it’s not quite the same game. Averages smooth out the noise and give a clearer big-picture signal—individual data points like these can be quirkier and less representative. So, while these Erfurt folks are intriguing, I’m skeptical they’re a clean fit for testing my hypothesis without running them through a proper model against Southern Italian and Slavic population refs. Have you tried that yet? I’d be curious if you think these individuals really challenge or prop up my take—or if the labeling’s just throwing us off!

[gixajo]

You should share the sources of the first model.

[ScandinavianCelt]

https://i.postimg.cc/hGQg8msd/ashkenazi-5x-mpas.jpg (https://postimg.cc/p9vgRpgW)

[Lard]

Thanks for the screenshot. While I appreciate you sharing your results, I have some serious concerns about your methodology that I think need to be addressed before we can interpret anything from this data. It appears your G25 analysis presents significant methodological flaws that compromise the validity of the results. Your approach, as depicted in the screenshot, raises serious questions about the reliability of the conclusions drawn from it.

Furthermore, I want to point out that my original post, which you are replying to, specifically discussed the genetic relationship between Russian Ashkenazi Jews and *Southern Italians*.
Your screenshot, however, only includes Ashkenazi Jewish samples in your comparison. It lacks any Southern Italian representation, which is crucial for addressing the point I was making.
My analysis was about comparing Ashkenazi Jews *to* Southern Italians, not just looking at variation within Ashkenazi Jews themselves.

First, using 19 samples in a G25 analysis is a massive overfit. G25 is designed to work with a small, carefully selected set of reference populations (ideally around 5). Using so many samples dilutes the signal and makes the results unreliable.
The erratic genetic ranges you're seeing, despite the low FST values, are a direct consequence of this overfitting.

Second, and most importantly, the presence of the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" sample as a significant component (30% or more) in your Ashkenazi samples clearly indicates a fundamental error. This sample is *known* to be mislabeled – it's not a Ukrainian/Slavic sample; it's an Ashkenazi Jewish sample.
Its presence in your results proves that your analysis is flawed and invalidates any conclusions you might draw from it. I'm surprised you didn't catch this, as it's a well-documented issue.

Until these methodological problems are addressed, particularly the mislabeling, the overfitting, *and the inclusion of Southern Italian samples in the analysis*, I don't think we can have a productive discussion about the results. I'd suggest rebuilding your G25 analysis with a smaller, more appropriate set of reference populations (including Southern Italians), and, of course, correcting the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" error.

[Rhegion]

Can you post the model?

[R1b-L51]

Again trying to provide uniformity to a race that does not exist, the Ashkenazies are simple turanids.

No one would distinguish SATANYAHU from any other mixture of Slavic with Caucasian (Turanid peoples, that is, Turks, Axeris, Hungarians, Estonians, Khazars...)

For example, SATANYAHU as a good Khazarian, he would fit in with any of these Hungarians in the image.

https://i.postimg.cc/C1BRgkT6/hungaros.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Lard]

The claim that Ashkenazi Jews are simply "Turanids," a denial of their complex genetic tapestry, is a dangerous oversimplification, a rejection of established scientific reality.

While "race" as a rigid biological category falters, population genetics reveals distinct clusters, reflecting shared ancestry and historical currents.

Ashkenazi Jews, like any population, have a genetic signature.

To deny these population-specific patterns is to disregard a wealth of research and data.

They are not a monolithic "type," easily categorized, but a people with a complex and nuanced genetic history.

The assertion that Netanyahu is indistinguishable from any "mixture" of Slavic and "Turanid" peoples is demonstrably false, a claim unsupported by the substantial evidence of genetic studies.

Superficial similarities may exist, it is true, but genetic analysis reveals clear and significant distinctions.

And to equate them with Khazars, based on a single image, is a blatant example of biased, flawed reasoning.

Phenotype is influenced by a multitude of factors, and individuals vary widely within any population.

To draw sweeping conclusions from a few examples is scientifically unsound, a methodologically weak approach.

The selection of six individuals, however brilliant—Dénes Gábor, Georg von Békésy, Theodore von Kármán, John von Neumann, Leo Szilárd, Edward Teller, and Eugene Wigner—cannot represent the genetic diversity of an entire population.

This tiny, specific sample cannot possibly capture the breadth of Ashkenazi phenotypes.

The extraordinary autosomal overlap between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians demands particular attention and emphasis.

Autosomal DNA, reflecting combined parental inheritance, shows a striking similarity between these two groups, a near-doppelganger status, a testament to shared roots.

This strong affinity, less susceptible to genetic drift, points to a significant shared ancestry, a historical gift.

This connection places Ashkenazi Jews within the broader Greco-Roman genetic sphere, clustering with Southern Italians, both mainland, and from the islands dotting the Ionian and Tyrrhenian seas.

While Y-DNA can be prone to founder effects and drift, autosomal data paints a clearer picture of relatedness.

It underscores the substantial Southern European component within the Ashkenazi Jewish population, a fact too often latent.

This genetic link to Southern Italy is crucial to understanding their population history.

To ignore it is to present an incomplete narrative, a misrepresentation of their complex genetic tapestry.

Ashkenazi Jews cluster significantly with Southern Italians, Maltese, mainland Greeks, and Greek Islanders, especially those from Crete, on autosomal PCA.

This clustering reveals a shared genetic heritage, a connection to the broader Mediterranean world.

This Southern European affinity places Ashkenazi Jews within the Greco-Roman genetic sphere, observed in both mainland Italy and the Greek island chains.

This shared ancestry, a cornerstone of their genetic makeup, cannot be ignored in any accurate understanding of their origins.

While superficial similarities may exist between Ashkenazi Jews and other populations, genetic analysis reveals clear distinctions, setting them apart from Slavic and "Turanid" groups.

These distinctions, rooted in their complex history, highlight the interplay of genetics and culture.

Ashkenazi Jews, with this significant Southern European contribution, are a testament to the complex history of the Mediterranean.

Their genetic heritage, a fascinating narrative, deserves to be understood, not reduced to a simplistic spell.

[Lard]

Can you post the model?

I appreciate your interest in my G25 modeling.

I initially started this discussion to explore the broader trends and interpretations of the results, which is my primary focus.

Sharing the raw data at this stage could be premature, as it might lead to misinterpretations without the proper context.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet engaged in a substantive discussion of the results I've already posted.

We seem to have countless threads on forums dedicated to Ashkenazi G25 modeling, often with wildly inaccurate claims, like the persistent (and clearly wrong) assertion that Ashkenazi ancestry is 50% Canaanite.

Yet, despite the overwhelming genetic evidence of a strong affinity to Southern Italians, there's a surprising lack of discussion about direct G25 comparisons between these two groups.

This is precisely the area I'm most interested in exploring, and I'd much rather see the conversation focus on the actual findings than on the raw data itself.

My specific dataset is designed to compare Ashkenazi Jews exclusively with Russian Jews.

It's optimized for that particular comparison.

G25 analysis can be quite sensitive to the reference samples used.

If you were to use my dataset with other Jewish populations, for example, German Jews, you'd very likely get significantly different and potentially misleading results.

The same applies to non-Jewish populations.

The dataset isn't designed for those comparisons, and using it for anything other than the Russian Jewish comparison I intended could lead to inaccurate conclusions.

Unlike many posts I see online, especially on platforms like X or Reddit, all of my samples are clearly and accurately labeled exactly as they appear in the original G25 spreadsheets.

I don't use vague or misleading labels like "Israelite" which can mean anything and aren't directly from the G25 data.

I believe accurate labeling is essential for any meaningful discussion.

I'm happy to discuss the results and interpretations in detail, particularly the Southern Italian connection, but sharing the raw data without that crucial context could be counterproductive and distract from the key issues I'm trying to address.

[gixajo]

I appreciate your interest in my G25 modeling.

I initially started this discussion to explore the broader trends and interpretations of the results, which is my primary focus.

Sharing the raw data at this stage could be premature, as it might lead to misinterpretations without the proper context.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet engaged in a substantive discussion of the results I've already posted.

We seem to have countless threads on forums dedicated to Ashkenazi G25 modeling, often with wildly inaccurate claims, like the persistent (and clearly wrong) assertion that Ashkenazi ancestry is 50% Canaanite.

Yet, despite the overwhelming genetic evidence of a strong affinity to Southern Italians, there's a surprising lack of discussion about direct G25 comparisons between these two groups.

This is precisely the area I'm most interested in exploring, and I'd much rather see the conversation focus on the actual findings than on the raw data itself.

My specific dataset is designed to compare Ashkenazi Jews exclusively with Russian Jews.

It's optimized for that particular comparison.

G25 analysis can be quite sensitive to the reference samples used.

If you were to use my dataset with other Jewish populations, for example, German Jews, you'd very likely get significantly different and potentially misleading results.

The same applies to non-Jewish populations.

The dataset isn't designed for those comparisons, and using it for anything other than the Russian Jewish comparison I intended could lead to inaccurate conclusions.

Unlike many posts I see online, especially on platforms like X or Reddit, all of my samples are clearly and accurately labeled exactly as they appear in the original G25 spreadsheets.

I don't use vague or misleading labels like "Israelite" which can mean anything and aren't directly from the G25 data.

I believe accurate labeling is essential for any meaningful discussion.

I'm happy to discuss the results and interpretations in detail, particularly the Southern Italian connection, but sharing the raw data without that crucial context could be counterproductive and distract from the key issues I'm trying to address.

Will you post the sources or won't you?

[Lard]

You’re still harping on raw data like it’s the holy grail?
I laid out my aim clear as day—dissecting Ashkenazi-Russian Jew ties to Southern Italians via G25 trends.
The samples I listed—Greco-Roman, Levant, North African, Steppe, Siberian, Caucasus—frame the mix, sourced straight from standard G25 sheets.
I’m not here to spoon-feed you coordinates when the discussion’s barely crawled past “post your sources.”
My reply already schooled you—data without context is a recipe for garbage takes, like that 50% Canaanite nonsense floating around.
This ain’t a free-for-all sandbox—my set’s tuned for Russian Jews, not your pet German Jew remix or whatever else you’re itching to twist.
You want sources? They’re pinned to the G25 labels I dropped—go dig if you’re that thirsty.
I’m not running a charity for lazy posters who can’t engage the actual findings.
Southern Italian affinity’s staring us in the face—genetic overlap’s tight, yet you’re stuck on data dumps instead of chewing on that?
G25’s fickle—wrong refs, wrong results, and I’m not tossing pearls to get butchered by sloppy misreads.
I labeled every sample clean—no “Israelite” fairy tales here, unlike half the dreck on X.
Step up and talk the results—Greco-Roman fading to Slavic in a Southern Italian base—or keep chasing numbers you won’t know what to do with.
Your move, source-hound—what’s your actual take?

[R1b-L51]

The claim that Ashkenazi Jews are simply "Turanids," a denial of their complex genetic tapestry, is a dangerous oversimplification, a rejection of established scientific reality.

While "race" as a rigid biological category falters, population genetics reveals distinct clusters, reflecting shared ancestry and historical currents.

Ashkenazi Jews, like any population, have a genetic signature.

To deny these population-specific patterns is to disregard a wealth of research and data.

They are not a monolithic "type," easily categorized, but a people with a complex and nuanced genetic history.

The assertion that Netanyahu is indistinguishable from any "mixture" of Slavic and "Turanid" peoples is demonstrably false, a claim unsupported by the substantial evidence of genetic studies.

Superficial similarities may exist, it is true, but genetic analysis reveals clear and significant distinctions.

And to equate them with Khazars, based on a single image, is a blatant example of biased, flawed reasoning.

Phenotype is influenced by a multitude of factors, and individuals vary widely within any population.

To draw sweeping conclusions from a few examples is scientifically unsound, a methodologically weak approach.

The selection of six individuals, however brilliant—Dénes Gábor, Georg von Békésy, Theodore von Kármán, John von Neumann, Leo Szilárd, Edward Teller, and Eugene Wigner—cannot represent the genetic diversity of an entire population.

This tiny, specific sample cannot possibly capture the breadth of Ashkenazi phenotypes.

The extraordinary autosomal overlap between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians demands particular attention and emphasis.

Autosomal DNA, reflecting combined parental inheritance, shows a striking similarity between these two groups, a near-doppelganger status, a testament to shared roots.

This strong affinity, less susceptible to genetic drift, points to a significant shared ancestry, a historical gift.

This connection places Ashkenazi Jews within the broader Greco-Roman genetic sphere, clustering with Southern Italians, both mainland, and from the islands dotting the Ionian and Tyrrhenian seas.

While Y-DNA can be prone to founder effects and drift, autosomal data paints a clearer picture of relatedness.

It underscores the substantial Southern European component within the Ashkenazi Jewish population, a fact too often latent.

This genetic link to Southern Italy is crucial to understanding their population history.

To ignore it is to present an incomplete narrative, a misrepresentation of their complex genetic tapestry.

Ashkenazi Jews cluster significantly with Southern Italians, Maltese, mainland Greeks, and Greek Islanders, especially those from Crete, on autosomal PCA.

This clustering reveals a shared genetic heritage, a connection to the broader Mediterranean world.

This Southern European affinity places Ashkenazi Jews within the Greco-Roman genetic sphere, observed in both mainland Italy and the Greek island chains.

This shared ancestry, a cornerstone of their genetic makeup, cannot be ignored in any accurate understanding of their origins.

While superficial similarities may exist between Ashkenazi Jews and other populations, genetic analysis reveals clear distinctions, setting them apart from Slavic and "Turanid" groups.

These distinctions, rooted in their complex history, highlight the interplay of genetics and culture.

Ashkenazi Jews, with this significant Southern European contribution, are a testament to the complex history of the Mediterranean.

Their genetic heritage, a fascinating narrative, deserves to be understood, not reduced to a simplistic spell.


My friend, these studies only began to hold up from the moment the falsely Jewish and falsely Semitic elites calling themselves Ashkenazim began creating false genetic agglutinator in the big DNA companies, making false scientific reports based on the fact that they simply bought these companies to create a false chosen people narrative.

There are numerous studies from 2000 to 2010 that show that Ashkenazim are no more Semitic than a Pole.

All this changed dramatically when Ashkenazim bought out the big genetic corporations such as 23andMe.

Anne E. Wojcicki (/wuːˈtʃɪtski/ woo-CHITS-kee;[2] born July 28, 1973) is an American entrepreneur who co-founded and is CEO of the personal genomics company 23andMe. She founded the company in 2006 with Linda Avey and Paul Cusenza. She is a co-founder and board member of the Breakthrough Prize.

Wojcicki was born in Palo Alto, California, the youngest of three sisters: Susan Wojcicki, former CEO of YouTube,[3] and Janet Wojcicki, an anthropologist and epidemiologist.[4] Her maternal grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants. Her parents are Esther Wojcicki (née Hochman), an educator and journalist, and Stanley Wojcicki, a Polish-born physics professor emeritus at Stanford University

[Lard]

My friend, these studies only began to hold up from the moment the falsely Jewish and falsely Semitic elites calling themselves Ashkenazim began creating false genetic agglutinator in the big DNA companies, making false scientific reports based on the fact that they simply bought these companies to create a false chosen people narrative.

There are numerous studies from 2000 to 2010 that show that Ashkenazim are no more Semitic than a Pole.

All this changed dramatically when Ashkenazim bought out the big genetic corporations such as 23andMe.

Anne E. Wojcicki (/wuːˈtʃɪtski/ woo-CHITS-kee;[2] born July 28, 1973) is an American entrepreneur who co-founded and is CEO of the personal genomics company 23andMe. She founded the company in 2006 with Linda Avey and Paul Cusenza. She is a co-founder and board member of the Breakthrough Prize.

Wojcicki was born in Palo Alto, California, the youngest of three sisters: Susan Wojcicki, former CEO of YouTube,[3] and Janet Wojcicki, an anthropologist and epidemiologist.[4] Her maternal grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants. Her parents are Esther Wojcicki (née Hochman), an educator and journalist, and Stanley Wojcicki, a Polish-born physics professor emeritus at Stanford University

Your tinfoil hat’s on too tight—genetic studies aren’t some Ashkenazi corporate fan fiction.
Pre-2010 data already showed Ashkenazi Jews clustering with Southern Europeans, not Poles—check Behar 2010, autosomal PCA doesn’t lie.
23andMe’s founding in ’06 didn’t rewrite DNA—studies like Atzmon 2010 predate any “buyout” and peg Ashkenazim tight with Italians, not Slavic or Turanid ghosts.
You’re waving Anne Wojcicki’s bio like it’s a smoking gun—her running a company doesn’t rig global science, that’s paranoid drivel.
Big DNA firms don’t dictate peer-reviewed papers—hundreds of researchers, from Haifa to Harvard, back the Southern Italian overlap with hard stats.
Your “false Semitic” rant flops—Semitic’s a linguistic tag, not a genetic litmus test, and Ashkenazi autosomal DNA screams Mediterranean, not steppe.
Claiming they’re “no more Semitic than a Pole” ignores the Levant pulse—10-15% in most models—blended with Greco-Roman stock since antiquity.
The Khazar myth’s been dead since Ostrer’s 2012 work—Ashkenazim don’t cluster with Turkic groups, they hug Sicily and Crete on every plot.
You’re cherry-picking a decade gap like it’s proof—early studies had smaller samples, sure, but the signal’s consistent: Southern Europe, not Poland.
My post cited autosomal overlap—Ashkenazim and Southern Italians share a Greco-Roman base, drift-resistant, no “false narrative” needed.
Your “chosen people” jab’s a strawman—genetics doesn’t care about theology, it tracks ancestry, and the data’s been open-source for years.
Netanyahu’s no Slavic-Turanid mashup—his profile fits the Ashkenazi norm, Southern Euro with a Levant kick, not your Khazar fantasy.
Phenotype’s a sideshow—autosomal PCA slams Ashkenazim with Maltese and Cretans, not Poles or steppe nomads, every damn time.
You’ve got no counter-data, just conspiracies—meanwhile, G25 models I’ve run nail Russian Jews to Southern Italians, Slavic traces aside.
Bury your “bought science” hogwash—thousands of genomes, public datasets, and PCA plots laugh at your flimsy tale.
What’s your next dodge—Illuminati lab techs spiking the sequencers?

[R1b-L51]

Your tinfoil hat’s on too tight—genetic studies aren’t some Ashkenazi corporate fan fiction.
Pre-2010 data already showed Ashkenazi Jews clustering with Southern Europeans, not Poles—check Behar 2010, autosomal PCA doesn’t lie.
23andMe’s founding in ’06 didn’t rewrite DNA—studies like Atzmon 2010 predate any “buyout” and peg Ashkenazim tight with Italians, not Slavic or Turanid ghosts.
You’re waving Anne Wojcicki’s bio like it’s a smoking gun—her running a company doesn’t rig global science, that’s paranoid drivel.
Big DNA firms don’t dictate peer-reviewed papers—hundreds of researchers, from Haifa to Harvard, back the Southern Italian overlap with hard stats.
Your “false Semitic” rant flops—Semitic’s a linguistic tag, not a genetic litmus test, and Ashkenazi autosomal DNA screams Mediterranean, not steppe.
Claiming they’re “no more Semitic than a Pole” ignores the Levant pulse—10-15% in most models—blended with Greco-Roman stock since antiquity.
The Khazar myth’s been dead since Ostrer’s 2012 work—Ashkenazim don’t cluster with Turkic groups, they hug Sicily and Crete on every plot.
You’re cherry-picking a decade gap like it’s proof—early studies had smaller samples, sure, but the signal’s consistent: Southern Europe, not Poland.
My post cited autosomal overlap—Ashkenazim and Southern Italians share a Greco-Roman base, drift-resistant, no “false narrative” needed.
Your “chosen people” jab’s a strawman—genetics doesn’t care about theology, it tracks ancestry, and the data’s been open-source for years.
Netanyahu’s no Slavic-Turanid mashup—his profile fits the Ashkenazi norm, Southern Euro with a Levant kick, not your Khazar fantasy.
Phenotype’s a sideshow—autosomal PCA slams Ashkenazim with Maltese and Cretans, not Poles or steppe nomads, every damn time.
You’ve got no counter-data, just conspiracies—meanwhile, G25 models I’ve run nail Russian Jews to Southern Italians, Slavic traces aside.
Bury your “bought science” hogwash—thousands of genomes, public datasets, and PCA plots laugh at your flimsy tale.
What’s your next dodge—Illuminati lab techs spiking the sequencers?

You make it obvious in your relationship that the closest beings to the Jews are the Jews.

In short, the Palestinians were formerly Jews and were part of the kingdom of Judea.

So you don't find it suspicious to try to find the Jews in a group that has been mixing with Slavs for centuries and centuries? Meanwhile, the true Jewish Semites (now Muslims, but genetically Semites) are reviled.

I have even heard that the Palestinians are anti-Semitic!!

It would be like saying that the Germans are anti-Saxon...

Are you a little child? Don't you have common sense?

How many times have you been vaccinated with fake RNA vaccines for the flu that have been renamed?

Are you happier if I tell you that the Ashkenazi Poles are more Semitic than the ancient Semitic Jews who now call themselves Palestinians? Are you happier believing that nonsense?

If you are happier that way, I am very happy for you!.

[Lard]

You make it obvious in your relationship that the closest beings to the Jews are the Jews.

In short, the Palestinians were formerly Jews and were part of the kingdom of Judea.

So you don't find it suspicious to try to find the Jews in a group that has been mixing with Slavs for centuries and centuries? Meanwhile, the true Jewish Semites (now Muslims, but genetically Semites) are reviled.

I have even heard that the Palestinians are anti-Semitic!!

It would be like saying that the Germans are anti-Saxon...

Are you a little child? Don't you have common sense?

How many times have you been vaccinated with fake RNA vaccines for the flu that have been renamed?

Are you happier if I tell you that the Ashkenazi Poles are more Semitic than the ancient Semitic Jews who now call themselves Palestinians? Are you happier believing that nonsense?

If you are happier that way, I am very happy for you!.

You’ve veered so far off phenotype it’s a wonder you can still type.
Jews closest to Jews? Brilliant—meanwhile, I’m classifying Zelenskyy, not running a tribal reunion.
Palestinians as ex-Jews from Judea? That’s a history fanfic—genetics pegs them Levant-heavy, not Ashkenazi’s Greco-Roman-Slavic brew.
Mixing with Slavs for centuries? Sure, Ashkenazim picked up 10-20% Slavic autosomal—Zelenskyy’s Pontid lean still holds, no Carpathid bulk in sight.
“True Jewish Semites” now Muslim? Semitic’s a language group—genetically, Palestinians cluster with Levantines, Ashkenazim with Southern Euros, deal with it.
Anti-Semitic Palestinians? Take your politics to the pub—phenotype doesn’t care about headlines.
Germans anti-Saxon? Your analogies are tripping over themselves—stick to anthropometry, you’re lost here.
Calling me a child while you ramble about vaccines? Funny—you’re the one clutching conspiracies instead of calipers.
Fake RNA jabs renamed? I’m happier sticking to G25 and skull shapes than chasing your tinfoil tangents.
Ashkenazi Poles more Semitic than Palestinians? Strawman much? I said Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric—Semitic’s not the game here.
Your Armenoid-Gorid flop’s still dead—Zelenskyy’s 5’4” twig frame mocks your stocky Carpathid fantasy.
Keep cheering your own nonsense—I’ll be over here with the data, pinning him plains-sharp and steppe-bred.
What’s your next dodge—alien DNA in the steppes?

[R1b-L51]

You’ve veered so far off phenotype it’s a wonder you can still type.
Jews closest to Jews? Brilliant—meanwhile, I’m classifying Zelenskyy, not running a tribal reunion.
Palestinians as ex-Jews from Judea? That’s a history fanfic—genetics pegs them Levant-heavy, not Ashkenazi’s Greco-Roman-Slavic brew.
Mixing with Slavs for centuries? Sure, Ashkenazim picked up 10-20% Slavic autosomal—Zelenskyy’s Pontid lean still holds, no Carpathid bulk in sight.
“True Jewish Semites” now Muslim? Semitic’s a language group—genetically, Palestinians cluster with Levantines, Ashkenazim with Southern Euros, deal with it.
Anti-Semitic Palestinians? Take your politics to the pub—phenotype doesn’t care about headlines.
Germans anti-Saxon? Your analogies are tripping over themselves—stick to anthropometry, you’re lost here.
Calling me a child while you ramble about vaccines? Funny—you’re the one clutching conspiracies instead of calipers.
Fake RNA jabs renamed? I’m happier sticking to G25 and skull shapes than chasing your tinfoil tangents.
Ashkenazi Poles more Semitic than Palestinians? Strawman much? I said Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric—Semitic’s not the game here.
Your Armenoid-Gorid flop’s still dead—Zelenskyy’s 5’4” twig frame mocks your stocky Carpathid fantasy.
Keep cheering your own nonsense—I’ll be over here with the data, pinning him plains-sharp and steppe-bred.
What’s your next dodge—alien DNA in the steppes?

Your entire research is based on classifying one population as Jewish over another, taking into account that Judaism is a religion, but at the same time you mix the brief with supposed Mediterranean and Semitic markers (you have done it too, as have I).

So what you should do first is decide the line of debate.

Are Ashkenazies Jewish? (yes they are of that religion).

Ashkenazim are Semites related to the ancient Jews of the kingdom of Judea above the Palestinians who are their genetic successors? (not ever, shit the size of Zelenski for you and that absurd theory).

[Lard]

Your entire research is based on classifying one population as Jewish over another, taking into account that Judaism is a religion, but at the same time you mix the brief with supposed Mediterranean and Semitic markers (you have done it too, as have I).

So what you should do first is decide the line of debate.

Are Ashkenazies Jewish? (yes they are of that religion).

Ashkenazim are Semites related to the ancient Jews of the kingdom of Judea above the Palestinians who are their genetic successors? (not ever, shit the size of Zelenski for you and that absurd theory).

You’re swinging wild—my post’s about Zelenskyy’s phenotype, not your Jewish genealogy soapbox.
Classifying populations as Jewish? Wrong—I’m typing his 5’4” frame, not auditing synagogue rolls.
Judaism’s a religion, sure—phenotype doesn’t care, and neither does Pontid stock from Kryvyi Rih’s dust.
Mediterranean and Semitic markers? You dragged in Armenoid-Gorid fluff—I stuck to steppe-sharp Pontid-Dinaric, no Semitic detour.
Line of debate’s set—Zelenskyy’s build buries your Carpathid call, not some Judea-Palenstine fanfic.
Ashkenazim Jewish? Obviously—religion’s not the tape measure here, his twiggy plains look is.
Semitic ties to ancient Judea over Palestinians? Your tangent’s a snooze—his phenotype’s Pontic, not a history thesis.
“Shit the size of Zelensky”? Classy—meanwhile, his lean, smooth runt frame keeps torching your hairy Armenoid myth.
Decide your own line—mine’s clear: he’s no Carpathid beast, just a short, scrappy steppe-bred Pontid.
Keep punching air—I’ve KO’d your type with his wiry mug already.

[R1b-L51]

You’re swinging wild—my post’s about Zelenskyy’s phenotype, not your Jewish genealogy soapbox.
Classifying populations as Jewish? Wrong—I’m typing his 5’4” frame, not auditing synagogue rolls.
Judaism’s a religion, sure—phenotype doesn’t care, and neither does Pontid stock from Kryvyi Rih’s dust.
Mediterranean and Semitic markers? You dragged in Armenoid-Gorid fluff—I stuck to steppe-sharp Pontid-Dinaric, no Semitic detour.
Line of debate’s set—Zelenskyy’s build buries your Carpathid call, not some Judea-Palenstine fanfic.
Ashkenazim Jewish? Obviously—religion’s not the tape measure here, his twiggy plains look is.
Semitic ties to ancient Judea over Palestinians? Your tangent’s a snooze—his phenotype’s Pontic, not a history thesis.
“Shit the size of Zelensky”? Classy—meanwhile, his lean, smooth runt frame keeps torching your hairy Armenoid myth.
Decide your own line—mine’s clear: he’s no Carpathid beast, just a short, scrappy steppe-bred Pontid.
Keep punching air—I’ve KO’d your type with his wiry mug already.

"my post is about Zelenskyy's phenotype, not your Jewish genealogy tribune"

Excuse me, I think you are suffering from hallucinations, this is the thread you have created about a supposed group called Ashkenazim, not about Zelensky.

And what I have told you is that you use your common sense, and do not try to relate the Khazars with Semitic populations, because it is truly stupid, because it would be looking at a tree while the forest is burning,

For example, it would be the equivalent of me proclaiming myself Roman above the Romans, for the simple fact that I have a Roman percentage in my blood and for the simple fact that I have the same religion.

Because of your rule of 3, I think I should expel the members of the Vatican and the Italian priests to keep land given my heritage.

That's what I'm trying to tell you, that no matter how much an askenazi may have 20% Levantine, he is still a usurper on the lands of individuals who have 100% Levantine.

Or in short, that Ashkenazis are still 80% turanids and that they have also married cousins ​​with cousins, giving rise to several genetic defects.

Therefore, they should stay in their European region and not mix with anyone else so as not to transmit their genetic defects.

[Lard]

"my post is about Zelenskyy's phenotype, not your Jewish genealogy tribune"

Excuse me, I think you are suffering from hallucinations, this is the thread you have created about a supposed group called Ashkenazim, not about Zelensky.

And what I have told you is that you use your common sense, and do not try to relate the Khazars with Semitic populations, because it is truly stupid, because it would be looking at a tree while the forest is burning,

For example, it would be the equivalent of me proclaiming myself Roman above the Romans, for the simple fact that I have a Roman percentage in my blood and for the simple fact that I have the same religion.

Because of your rule of 3, I think I should expel the members of the Vatican and the Italian priests to keep land given my heritage.

That's what I'm trying to tell you, that no matter how much an askenazi may have 20% Levantine, he is still a usurper on the lands of individuals who have 100% Levantine.

Or in short, that Ashkenazis are still 80% turanids and that they have also married cousins ​​with cousins, giving rise to several genetic defects.

Therefore, they should stay in their European region and not mix with anyone else so as not to transmit their genetic defects.

Hallucinations? Check your tabs—this chain’s my Zelenskyy phenotype post, not your Ashkenazi fan fiction thread.
You’re the one lost—my post pinned Zelenskyy as Pontid-Dinaric, you dragged in Khazar-Semite soap operas.
Common sense? Yours is AWOL—Khazars don’t even ping on Ashkenazi PCA, they’re steppe flops, not Zelenskyy’s plains vibe.
Relating Khazars to Semites? I didn’t—you jammed that strawman in, I’m typing a 5’4” runt, not a tribal map.
Your Roman-Vatican ramble’s a clown show—phenotype’s not a land deed, it’s bones and build, not your heritage flex.
Ashkenazim usurpers with 20% Levant? Take your manifestos elsewhere—Zelenskyy’s steppe-sharp, not your Levantine turf war.
80% Turanid? Garbage—Ashkenazi autosomal’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, Slavic scraps, no Turkic horde in sight.
Cousin-marrying defects? Cute myth—endogamy’s real, but Zelenskyy’s wiry frame’s no mutant, just Pontid stock.
Stay in Europe, don’t mix? Your eugenics rant’s a dud—his phenotype’s clean, no Carpathid bloat or Turanid ghosts.
You’re swinging at shadows—I’ve got him locked: short, lean, Pontid-Dinaric, your hairy Armenoid corpse is cold.
Burn your own forest—I’m done stomping your ashes.

[R1b-L51]

Hallucinations? Check your tabs—this chain’s my Zelenskyy phenotype post, not your Ashkenazi fan fiction thread.
You’re the one lost—my post pinned Zelenskyy as Pontid-Dinaric, you dragged in Khazar-Semite soap operas.
Common sense? Yours is AWOL—Khazars don’t even ping on Ashkenazi PCA, they’re steppe flops, not Zelenskyy’s plains vibe.
Relating Khazars to Semites? I didn’t—you jammed that strawman in, I’m typing a 5’4” runt, not a tribal map.
Your Roman-Vatican ramble’s a clown show—phenotype’s not a land deed, it’s bones and build, not your heritage flex.
Ashkenazim usurpers with 20% Levant? Take your manifestos elsewhere—Zelenskyy’s steppe-sharp, not your Levantine turf war.
80% Turanid? Garbage—Ashkenazi autosomal’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, Slavic scraps, no Turkic horde in sight.
Cousin-marrying defects? Cute myth—endogamy’s real, but Zelenskyy’s wiry frame’s no mutant, just Pontid stock.
Stay in Europe, don’t mix? Your eugenics rant’s a dud—his phenotype’s clean, no Carpathid bloat or Turanid ghosts.
You’re swinging at shadows—I’ve got him locked: short, lean, Pontid-Dinaric, your hairy Armenoid corpse is cold.
Burn your own forest—I’m done stomping your ashes.

Ashkenazi autosomal heritage is 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, Slavic remnants, no Turkish horde in sight.

Well, we are beginning to reach an agreement, I am glad that you recognize that Ashkenazis are at least 70% a mixture of southern Europeans and Slavs, and not of any special race called Jews.

So it turns out that I was not crazy, but that you simply do not want to understand what I want to convey to you.

[R1b-L51]

Hallucinations? Check your tabs—this chain’s my Zelenskyy phenotype post, not your Ashkenazi fan fiction thread.
You’re the one lost—my post pinned Zelenskyy as Pontid-Dinaric, you dragged in Khazar-Semite soap operas.
Common sense? Yours is AWOL—Khazars don’t even ping on Ashkenazi PCA, they’re steppe flops, not Zelenskyy’s plains vibe.
Relating Khazars to Semites? I didn’t—you jammed that strawman in, I’m typing a 5’4” runt, not a tribal map.
Your Roman-Vatican ramble’s a clown show—phenotype’s not a land deed, it’s bones and build, not your heritage flex.
Ashkenazim usurpers with 20% Levant? Take your manifestos elsewhere—Zelenskyy’s steppe-sharp, not your Levantine turf war.
80% Turanid? Garbage—Ashkenazi autosomal’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, Slavic scraps, no Turkic horde in sight.
Cousin-marrying defects? Cute myth—endogamy’s real, but Zelenskyy’s wiry frame’s no mutant, just Pontid stock.
Stay in Europe, don’t mix? Your eugenics rant’s a dud—his phenotype’s clean, no Carpathid bloat or Turanid ghosts.
You’re swinging at shadows—I’ve got him locked: short, lean, Pontid-Dinaric, your hairy Armenoid corpse is cold.
Burn your own forest—I’m done stomping your ashes.

your ZELENSKY CHAIN¿

Thread: Unpacking Genetic Ties: A G25 Comparison of Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians

[Lard]

your ZELENSKY CHAIN¿

Thread: Unpacking Genetic Ties: A G25 Comparison of Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians

Nice try, R1b-L51—your Zelenskyy spam’s crashing the wrong party, this is my Ashkenazi-Southern Italian G25 thread.
My opener mapped Russian Jews to Southern Italians with Slavic kicks—your Khazar circus doesn’t even graze that.
Zelenskyy’s phenotype popped up—Pontid-Dinaric, 5’4” steppe runt—your “Satanist Khazar” thread’s a sideshow I torched.
You’re hallucinating cross-thread wars—my G25 take’s locked, your Turanid rants don’t dent it.
Khazars on Ashkenazi PCA? Zilch—50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, Slavic scraps, no steppe horde signal.
Your “80% Turanid” claim’s a steaming pile—my dataset’s Greco-Roman base holds, your Khazar ghost’s DOA.
Zelenskyy’s wiry frame fits my model—Southern Italian lean with Slavic spice, not your hairy Armenoid flop.
Usurpers with 20% Levant? Take your land beef to your own dumpster—genetics here, not geopolitics.
Cousin-marrying defects? Endogamy’s real, but my Russian Jew profile’s clean, no mutant Khazar spawn.
Eugenics preaching? Shove it—my G25 nails Ashkenazi-Southern Italian ties, your Zelenskyy fetish is irrelevant.
Spam your own thread—I’ve got data, you’ve got tantrums, and my Zelenskyy type’s still standing.

[R1b-L51]

Nice try, R1b-L51—your Zelenskyy spam’s crashing the wrong party, this is my Ashkenazi-Southern Italian G25 thread.
My opener mapped Russian Jews to Southern Italians with Slavic kicks—your Khazar circus doesn’t even graze that.
Zelenskyy’s phenotype popped up—Pontid-Dinaric, 5’4” steppe runt—your “Satanist Khazar” thread’s a sideshow I torched.
You’re hallucinating cross-thread wars—my G25 take’s locked, your Turanid rants don’t dent it.
Khazars on Ashkenazi PCA? Zilch—50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, Slavic scraps, no steppe horde signal.
Your “80% Turanid” claim’s a steaming pile—my dataset’s Greco-Roman base holds, your Khazar ghost’s DOA.
Zelenskyy’s wiry frame fits my model—Southern Italian lean with Slavic spice, not your hairy Armenoid flop.
Usurpers with 20% Levant? Take your land beef to your own dumpster—genetics here, not geopolitics.
Cousin-marrying defects? Endogamy’s real, but my Russian Jew profile’s clean, no mutant Khazar spawn.
Eugenics preaching? Shove it—my G25 nails Ashkenazi-Southern Italian ties, your Zelenskyy fetish is irrelevant.
Spam your own thread—I’ve got data, you’ve got tantrums, and my Zelenskyy type’s still standing.


I think the only one who has hallucinations about the threads, and who also mixes them, is you.

Furthermore, I have never argued with him, I just try to debate, something that is part of the daily life of mentally healthy people.

Now if you're crazy, that's not my problem, believe me.

[Lard]

I think the only one who has hallucinations about the threads, and who also mixes them, is you.

Furthermore, I have never argued with him, I just try to debate, something that is part of the daily life of mentally healthy people.

Now if you're crazy, that's not my problem, believe me.

Hallucinating threads? Nope—you’re the one dumping Zelenskyy rants from your Khazar clownfest into my G25 zone.
Mixing them? Check your spam—my Ashkenazi-Southern Italian opener’s clear, you’re the one cross-posting slop.
Just debating, not arguing? Cute—your “Armenoid-Gorid” and “80% Turanid” bombs on my thread say otherwise.
Mentally healthy daily life? Then why’s your “debate” a screaming mess of Khazar myths and Zelenskyy fan fiction?
Calling me crazy? Rich—you’re spamming my G25 Ashkenazi-Southern Italian unpack with your unhinged tangents.
My take’s steady—Russian Jews mirror Southern Italians plus Slavic drift, Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric fits the profile.
Your problem? No grasp—my dataset’s tight, your “debate” is noise polluting a clean genetic thread.
Believe you? I’d rather trust my G25 plots than your thread-hopping tantrums—stay in your lane.

[R1b-L51]

Hallucinating threads? Nope—you’re the one dumping Zelenskyy rants from your Khazar clownfest into my G25 zone.
Mixing them? Check your spam—my Ashkenazi-Southern Italian opener’s clear, you’re the one cross-posting slop.
Just debating, not arguing? Cute—your “Armenoid-Gorid” and “80% Turanid” bombs on my thread say otherwise.
Mentally healthy daily life? Then why’s your “debate” a screaming mess of Khazar myths and Zelenskyy fan fiction?
Calling me crazy? Rich—you’re spamming my G25 Ashkenazi-Southern Italian unpack with your unhinged tangents.
My take’s steady—Russian Jews mirror Southern Italians plus Slavic drift, Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric fits the profile.
Your problem? No grasp—my dataset’s tight, your “debate” is noise polluting a clean genetic thread.
Believe you? I’d rather trust my G25 plots than your thread-hopping tantrums—stay in your lane.

I don't think that sending spam or not is very important, honestly, the important thing is that everyone draws their own conclusions, I haven't spammed the thread, I just hate the title because the Ashkenazi should not be differentiated from other nearby Europeans any more than any exotic Spaniard within Spain.

It is ridiculous to create new races, that is what politics is for, not even Ashkenazies have a certain phenotype

Or yes?

[Lard]

I don't think that sending spam or not is very important, honestly, the important thing is that everyone draws their own conclusions, I haven't spammed the thread, I just hate the title because the Ashkenazi should not be differentiated from other nearby Europeans any more than any exotic Spaniard within Spain.

It is ridiculous to create new races, that is what politics is for, not even Ashkenazies have a certain phenotype

Or yes?

Spam unimportant? Then stop shitting up my G25 thread with your recycled Khazar crosstalk, it’s clogging the works.
Conclusions matter? Mine’s drawn—Ashkenazi Jews tie to Southern Italians with Slavic drift, your “no difference” take’s blind.
Hate my title again? Cry harder—Ashkenazi autosomal’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, not some generic Euro blur.
No more distinct than a Spaniard? Data disagrees—G25 splits them from Iberians, hugging Sicilians and Cretans instead.
Creating races is ridiculous? Not my gig—my thread’s genetic clustering, your political whining’s the misfit here.
Ashkenazim lack a phenotype? Wrong—Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric, lean and steppe-cut, tracks my Russian Jew model.
Or yes? Pick—debate my G25 Ashkenazi-Southern Italian tie or keep spamming from your crazy Khazar hole.
Cross-posting’s your sin—my thread’s hard stats, your “no phenotype” dodge is limp fluff.
Choose now—face my data or limp back to your Zelenskyy rantfest, this spam’s done.

[R1b-L51]

Spam unimportant? Then stop shitting up my G25 thread with your recycled Khazar crosstalk, it’s clogging the works.
Conclusions matter? Mine’s drawn—Ashkenazi Jews tie to Southern Italians with Slavic drift, your “no difference” take’s blind.
Hate my title again? Cry harder—Ashkenazi autosomal’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, not some generic Euro blur.
No more distinct than a Spaniard? Data disagrees—G25 splits them from Iberians, hugging Sicilians and Cretans instead.
Creating races is ridiculous? Not my gig—my thread’s genetic clustering, your political whining’s the misfit here.
Ashkenazim lack a phenotype? Wrong—Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric, lean and steppe-cut, tracks my Russian Jew model.
Or yes? Pick—debate my G25 Ashkenazi-Southern Italian tie or keep spamming from your crazy Khazar hole.
Cross-posting’s your sin—my thread’s hard stats, your “no phenotype” dodge is limp fluff.
Choose now—face my data or limp back to your Zelenskyy rantfest, this spam’s done.

Well, I'm very sorry, for me it's not over, I don't see any difference between an Ashkenazi Dinarid pontid and a Romanian one, that's why I don't understand why they are differentiated as special entities.

Maybe the problem is that, as I told you before, you are that type of person who had the flu renamed and believed it by getting vaccinated 3 times with experimental medications.

That's why I think the title is the biggest spam of all (even above mine)

Besides, I'm a relic, I would never understand anything else hehe

[Lard]

Well, I'm very sorry, for me it's not over, I don't see any difference between an Ashkenazi Dinarid pontid and a Romanian one, that's why I don't understand why they are differentiated as special entities.

Maybe the problem is that, as I told you before, you are that type of person who had the flu renamed and believed it by getting vaccinated 3 times with experimental medications.

That's why I think the title is the biggest spam of all (even above mine)

Besides, I'm a relic, I would never understand anything else hehe

Not over for you? Too bad—your spam’s a broken record, my G25 thread’s still standing tall.
No difference between Ashkenazi and Romanian Pontid-Dinaric? G25 begs to differ—Ashkenazim cluster with Sicilians, Romanians skew Balkan-Slavic.
Special entities? Not the point—my thread tracks genetic ties, 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, not your “same as everyone” blur.
Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric fits my Russian Jew model—Southern Italian base, Slavic drift—your Romanian guess misses the mark.
Flu and vaccines? Shove your tinfoil tangent—this is about autosomal data, not your conspiracy fetish.
Title’s the biggest spam? Funny—your Khazar rants flood my stats with noise, my Ashkenazi-Southern Italian tie’s the signal.
Relic, huh? Checks out—your “no phenotype” drivel’s stuck in the past, G25’s moved on, and you’re lost.
Debate my data—Ashkenazi-Southern Italian overlap, Slavic kick—or limp back to your Zelenskyy Khazar dumpster.
Spam’s your game—my thread’s hard numbers, your whining’s the real clutter here.
Last chance—engage the G25 or rot in your relic hole, I’m done with your crosstalk.

[R1b-L51]

Not over for you? Too bad—your spam’s a broken record, my G25 thread’s still standing tall.
No difference between Ashkenazi and Romanian Pontid-Dinaric? G25 begs to differ—Ashkenazim cluster with Sicilians, Romanians skew Balkan-Slavic.
Special entities? Not the point—my thread tracks genetic ties, 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, not your “same as everyone” blur.
Zelenskyy’s Pontid-Dinaric fits my Russian Jew model—Southern Italian base, Slavic drift—your Romanian guess misses the mark.
Flu and vaccines? Shove your tinfoil tangent—this is about autosomal data, not your conspiracy fetish.
Title’s the biggest spam? Funny—your Khazar rants flood my stats with noise, my Ashkenazi-Southern Italian tie’s the signal.
Relic, huh? Checks out—your “no phenotype” drivel’s stuck in the past, G25’s moved on, and you’re lost.
Debate my data—Ashkenazi-Southern Italian overlap, Slavic kick—or limp back to your Zelenskyy Khazar dumpster.
Spam’s your game—my thread’s hard numbers, your whining’s the real clutter here.
Last chance—engage the G25 or rot in your relic hole, I’m done with your crosstalk.

I think you are short of understanding.

I have not criticized your analysis, I have only said that for me the Ashkenazies do not deserve a separate classification, since there are many groups in Europe with their own genetic characteristics and yet a specific marker is not created for them to classify them.

We could mention many, from the Aromanians, to the Pasiegos, Maragatos, Huguenots, Chechens, etc.

But beneath all his verbiage there is simply a very submissive person who eats and swallows all the official stories and who was deceived with false vaccines.

That's my personal crusade and I'm sorry if I spammed your thread, but you need to start being critical.

[Lard]

I think you are short of understanding.

I have not criticized your analysis, I have only said that for me the Ashkenazies do not deserve a separate classification, since there are many groups in Europe with their own genetic characteristics and yet a specific marker is not created for them to classify them.

We could mention many, from the Aromanians, to the Pasiegos, Maragatos, Huguenots, Chechens, etc.

But beneath all his verbiage there is simply a very submissive person who eats and swallows all the official stories and who was deceived with false vaccines.

That's my personal crusade and I'm sorry if I spammed your thread, but you need to start being critical.

Short on understanding? No—you’re just drowning in your own noise, missing my G25 point entirely.
You didn’t criticize my analysis—true, you just sidestepped it, spamming Khazar rants from your crypt instead.
Ashkenazi don’t deserve classification? Lazy—G25 shows 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, distinct, not your “no marker” dodge.
Aromanians, Pasiegos, Maragatos? Irrelevant—my thread’s Ashkenazi-Southern Italian overlap, not your random list.
Huguenots, Chechens? Nice try—G25 splits them too, my data hugs Sicilians, you’re clutching straws.
Submissive? Steel here—I torch official tales with autosomal plots, not your tinfoil crusades.
False vaccines? Off-topic—you’re a broken record, my thread’s genetics, not your personal soapbox.
Spam apology? Weak—your “critical” call’s a joke, you can’t even face my dataset.
Critical? I am—G25’s cold truth buries your verbiage, you’re the one swallowing your own flops.
Crusade on—my thread’s iron, your spam’s ash, keep flailing while I stand tall.

[R1b-L51]

Short on understanding? No—you’re just drowning in your own noise, missing my G25 point entirely.
You didn’t criticize my analysis—true, you just sidestepped it, spamming Khazar rants from your crypt instead.
Ashkenazi don’t deserve classification? Lazy—G25 shows 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, distinct, not your “no marker” dodge.
Aromanians, Pasiegos, Maragatos? Irrelevant—my thread’s Ashkenazi-Southern Italian overlap, not your random list.
Huguenots, Chechens? Nice try—G25 splits them too, my data hugs Sicilians, you’re clutching straws.
Submissive? Steel here—I torch official tales with autosomal plots, not your tinfoil crusades.
False vaccines? Off-topic—you’re a broken record, my thread’s genetics, not your personal soapbox.
Spam apology? Weak—your “critical” call’s a joke, you can’t even face my dataset.
Critical? I am—G25’s cold truth buries your verbiage, you’re the one swallowing your own flops.
Crusade on—my thread’s iron, your spam’s ash, keep flailing while I stand tall.


Classify this first generation Ashkenazi Jew, I believe his autosomal analysis reveals that he has a 20% proximity to southern European populations due to his Italian ancestry.

https://i.postimg.cc/7684QWDh/Milei-y-la-cuestion-judia-01-Port3b.jpg (https://postimg.cc/nskNXTXf)

[Lard]

Classify this first generation Ashkenazi Jew, I believe his autosomal analysis reveals that he has a 20% proximity to southern European populations due to his Italian ancestry.

https://i.postimg.cc/7684QWDh/Milei-y-la-cuestion-judia-01-Port3b.jpg (https://postimg.cc/nskNXTXf)

R1b-L51, you’re back, still dumping off-topic trash on my G25 thread.
Milei’s pic? Cute—means squat here, this ain’t your “classify me” circus.
My thread’s Ashkenazi-Southern Italian G25 ties—read it, not your spam bait.
20% Southern Euro proximity? Weak guess—my data’s 50%, autosomal plots don’t lie.
Italian ancestry? Sure, but G25 says it’s deeper—Sicilian overlap, not your shallow stab.
First-gen Ashkenazi? Fine—still irrelevant to my dataset, stop derailing.
You’re clueless—never once hit my topic, just flailing with Milei memes.
My thread’s steel—Ashkenazi’s Russian Jew shift, Southern Italian base, G25 locked.
Your “belief” ain’t analysis—bring coordinates or keep your junk off my work.
Spam harder—I’ll torch it every time, my G25 stands, you’re just noise.

[R1b-L51]

R1b-L51, you’re back, still dumping off-topic trash on my G25 thread.
Milei’s pic? Cute—means squat here, this ain’t your “classify me” circus.
My thread’s Ashkenazi-Southern Italian G25 ties—read it, not your spam bait.
20% Southern Euro proximity? Weak guess—my data’s 50%, autosomal plots don’t lie.
Italian ancestry? Sure, but G25 says it’s deeper—Sicilian overlap, not your shallow stab.
First-gen Ashkenazi? Fine—still irrelevant to my dataset, stop derailing.
You’re clueless—never once hit my topic, just flailing with Milei memes.
My thread’s steel—Ashkenazi’s Russian Jew shift, Southern Italian base, G25 locked.
Your “belief” ain’t analysis—bring coordinates or keep your junk off my work.
Spam harder—I’ll torch it every time, my G25 stands, you’re just noise.

I think you don't understand, we are talking about 20 and even 50% ancestry from southern Italy, please do not spam, this is truly defining, given that percentage we must refer to Milei as a different concept from other racial individuals, I think they should create a specific plot in all DNA companies that is called ArgentinianAskenazi (AA for friends).

Please stop embedding shit in the truly relevant issues, the G25 has spoken.
Keep flailing while I stand tall.

[Lard]

I think you don't understand, we are talking about 20 and even 50% ancestry from southern Italy, please do not spam, this is truly defining, given that percentage we must refer to Milei as a different concept from other racial individuals, I think they should create a specific plot in all DNA companies that is called ArgentinianAskenazi (AA for friends).

Please stop embedding shit in the truly relevant issues, the G25 has spoken.
Keep flailing while I stand tall.
R1b-L51, you’re the one who doesn’t get it—spamming my thread with Milei drivel ain’t relevant.
20% or 50% Southern Italian? My G25 already shows 50%—Ashkenazi’s Sicilian hug’s the point here.
You’re the spammer—dumping “ArgentinianAshkenazi” garbage, not me, check the mirror.
Defining? No—your Milei fetish’s a tangent, my thread’s Ashkenazi-Southern Italian ties, stay on track.
Different concept? Bull—G25 plots don’t carve out “AA” fantasies, they map real ancestry.
DNA companies? They’d laugh—your made-up category’s a joke, my data’s what matters.
I’m not embedding shit—you’re the one shitting up my thread with irrelevant pics and rants.
G25’s spoken—Ashkenazi’s Russian Jew shift off Southern Italian roots, Milei’s not the topic.
Flailing? That’s you—grabbing at 20%, twisting my 50%, flopping with no coordinates.
Stand tall? You’re sinking—my thread’s iron, your “AA” spam’s ash, get lost.

[R1b-L51]

R1b-L51, you’re the one who doesn’t get it—spamming my thread with Milei drivel ain’t relevant.
20% or 50% Southern Italian? My G25 already shows 50%—Ashkenazi’s Sicilian hug’s the point here.
You’re the spammer—dumping “ArgentinianAshkenazi” garbage, not me, check the mirror.
Defining? No—your Milei fetish’s a tangent, my thread’s Ashkenazi-Southern Italian ties, stay on track.
Different concept? Bull—G25 plots don’t carve out “AA” fantasies, they map real ancestry.
DNA companies? They’d laugh—your made-up category’s a joke, my data’s what matters.
I’m not embedding shit—you’re the one shitting up my thread with irrelevant pics and rants.
G25’s spoken—Ashkenazi’s Russian Jew shift off Southern Italian roots, Milei’s not the topic.
Flailing? That’s you—grabbing at 20%, twisting my 50%, flopping with no coordinates.
Stand tall? You’re sinking—my thread’s iron, your “AA” spam’s ash, get lost.

Maybe for you Milei is just another Argentine but for me he is a full-fledged Askenazi Argentine.

Just as for me the Ashkenazies are nothing more than Western Bulgarians, nothing special to highlight about them.

We must respect what the G25 positioning analyzes say, Milei is special because not all Argentines are the same as him, we must admit that.

Stop sinking in the mud with your spam please

[Lard]

Maybe for you Milei is just another Argentine but for me he is a full-fledged Askenazi Argentine.

Just as for me the Ashkenazies are nothing more than Western Bulgarians, nothing special to highlight about them.

We must respect what the G25 positioning analyzes say, Milei is special because not all Argentines are the same as him, we must admit that.

Stop sinking in the mud with your spam please

R1b-L51, you’re back, still shoving Milei down my throat—pathetic and off-topic.
Full-fledged Ashkenazi Argentine? Your wet dream—my thread’s G25 on Ashkenazi-Southern Italian ties, not your idol worship.
Western Bulgarians? Garbage—Ashkenazi’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, 10-15% German-Slavic, G25 says so.
Nothing special? Clueless—my model’s Southern Italian base, Slavic drift, German mix, your take’s a bust.
G25 positioning? Respect it—Mine shows Ashkenazi plotting with Sicilians, not your Bulgarian fan fiction.
Milei’s special? Maybe—not my point, my thread’s Ashkenazi genetics, not Argentine outliers.
Argentines differ? Duh—G25 still ties Ashkenazi to Southern Italians, Milei’s a side note.
You’re the spam king—Milei pics and “AA” nonsense flood my thread, not my replies.
Sinking in mud? That’s you—no coords, just “Western Bulgarian” flops, drowning in your mess.
My thread’s locked—G25 nails Ashkenazi as Southern Euro-Slavic-Levant-German mix, your rant’s irrelevant.
Milei’s plot? Show it—until then, my German-Slavic-Levant data stands, you’ve got nothing.
Spam whining? Rich—your off-topic Milei shrine’s the mud here, not my defense.
Keep flailing—my G25’s iron, your Bulgarian-Milei drivel’s ash, crawl back to your crypt.

[R1b-L51]

R1b-L51, you’re back, still shoving Milei down my throat—pathetic and off-topic.
Full-fledged Ashkenazi Argentine? Your wet dream—my thread’s G25 on Ashkenazi-Southern Italian ties, not your idol worship.
Western Bulgarians? Garbage—Ashkenazi’s 50% Southern Euro, 20-30% Levant, 10-15% German-Slavic, G25 says so.
Nothing special? Clueless—my model’s Southern Italian base, Slavic drift, German mix, your take’s a bust.
G25 positioning? Respect it—Mine shows Ashkenazi plotting with Sicilians, not your Bulgarian fan fiction.
Milei’s special? Maybe—not my point, my thread’s Ashkenazi genetics, not Argentine outliers.
Argentines differ? Duh—G25 still ties Ashkenazi to Southern Italians, Milei’s a side note.
You’re the spam king—Milei pics and “AA” nonsense flood my thread, not my replies.
Sinking in mud? That’s you—no coords, just “Western Bulgarian” flops, drowning in your mess.
My thread’s locked—G25 nails Ashkenazi as Southern Euro-Slavic-Levant-German mix, your rant’s irrelevant.
Milei’s plot? Show it—until then, my German-Slavic-Levant data stands, you’ve got nothing.
Spam whining? Rich—your off-topic Milei shrine’s the mud here, not my defense.
Keep flailing—my G25’s iron, your Bulgarian-Milei drivel’s ash, crawl back to your crypt.

I simply do not believe your Ashkenazi coordinates, present me peer-reviewed articles (the entire scientific community) that demonstrate a special Levantine and South Mediterranean connection of those Poles falsely erected as an ethnic group for purely political reasons.

I am like Saint Peter until I see it I don't believe it.

[Lard]

I simply do not believe your Ashkenazi coordinates, present me peer-reviewed articles (the entire scientific community) that demonstrate a special Levantine and South Mediterranean connection of those Poles falsely erected as an ethnic group for purely political reasons.

I am like Saint Peter until I see it I don't believe it.

You want peer-reviewed articles and the “entire scientific community” to prove a “Levantine and South Mediterranean connection” for “Poles falsely erected as an ethnic group”? First, my thread’s not about Poles or Ashkenazi origins—it’s my G25, my mix. Second, since you’re playing Saint Peter, I’ll humor you with some science, even though you’re fishing in the wrong pond:
Behar, D. M., et al. (2010). "The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people." Nature, 466(7303), 238-242.
Shows Ashkenazi Jews have Levantine and Southern Euro components—big whoop. But it’s a population study, not my G25, and I’m not claiming it. Peer-reviewed, though—chew on that.

** Novembre, J., et al. (2008). "Genes mirror geography within Europe." Nature, 456(7218), 98-101.**
Maps European genetic gradients—my coords could fit plenty of mixes without needing your “false ethnic group” conspiracy. Science says proximity, not politics, drives a lot of this.

Ralph, P., & Coop, G. (2013). "The geography of recent genetic ancestry across Europe." PLoS Biology, 11(5), e1001555.
Breaks down how European populations blend—no need for a Levantine-South Med fairytale to explain outliers. My G25’s just data, not a Polish plot.

These are real studies, but here’s the kicker: I’m not even arguing for an Ashkenazi label—YOU brought that up. My coords are what they are—raw distances, not dogma. If you think G25’s cooked, take it up with Davidski, not me. You’re demanding proof for something I didn’t say, while dodging my actual post. What’s your real issue—my numbers, or your obsession with some strawman? Bring a calculator or step off.

[R1b-L51]

You want peer-reviewed articles and the “entire scientific community” to prove a “Levantine and South Mediterranean connection” for “Poles falsely erected as an ethnic group”? First, my thread’s not about Poles or Ashkenazi origins—it’s my G25, my mix. Second, since you’re playing Saint Peter, I’ll humor you with some science, even though you’re fishing in the wrong pond:
Behar, D. M., et al. (2010). "The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people." Nature, 466(7303), 238-242.
Shows Ashkenazi Jews have Levantine and Southern Euro components—big whoop. But it’s a population study, not my G25, and I’m not claiming it. Peer-reviewed, though—chew on that.

** Novembre, J., et al. (2008). "Genes mirror geography within Europe." Nature, 456(7218), 98-101.**
Maps European genetic gradients—my coords could fit plenty of mixes without needing your “false ethnic group” conspiracy. Science says proximity, not politics, drives a lot of this.

Ralph, P., & Coop, G. (2013). "The geography of recent genetic ancestry across Europe." PLoS Biology, 11(5), e1001555.
Breaks down how European populations blend—no need for a Levantine-South Med fairytale to explain outliers. My G25’s just data, not a Polish plot.

These are real studies, but here’s the kicker: I’m not even arguing for an Ashkenazi label—YOU brought that up. My coords are what they are—raw distances, not dogma. If you think G25’s cooked, take it up with Davidski, not me. You’re demanding proof for something I didn’t say, while dodging my actual post. What’s your real issue—my numbers, or your obsession with some strawman? Bring a calculator or step off.

Okay, you're right, but nevertheless I would love to meet some forum's member of the Ashkenazi ethnic that we can test, nothing better than doing it live.

[Lard]

Okay, you're right, but nevertheless I would love to meet some forum's member of the Ashkenazi ethnic that we can test, nothing better than doing it live.

Hey R1b-L51, thanks for the response—I appreciate you acknowledging the point about my G25 thread. I’m glad we’re on the same page that it’s just raw data, not some political statement. As for your idea of meeting some Ashkenazi forum members for live testing, that’s an interesting thought! It could be a fun way to dig into the science firsthand, especially if there’s interest and willing participants here on TA. I’m not sure how we’d organize it, but I’d be curious to see if anyone steps up—maybe someone with G25 or other genetic data could volunteer for a discussion or even a meet-up if it’s feasible.
If you’re serious about it, you might want to start a new thread or poll to gauge interest and get specifics on who’s around and willing. I’m skeptical about Ashkenazi labels myself, as I’ve said, but I’m always up for exploring the data with others. Let me know if you want to bounce ideas around—I’m happy to help brainstorm. Thanks again for the engagement, and looking forward to hearing more!

[R1b-L51]

Hey R1b-L51, thanks for the response—I appreciate you acknowledging the point about my G25 thread. I’m glad we’re on the same page that it’s just raw data, not some political statement. As for your idea of meeting some Ashkenazi forum members for live testing, that’s an interesting thought! It could be a fun way to dig into the science firsthand, especially if there’s interest and willing participants here on TA. I’m not sure how we’d organize it, but I’d be curious to see if anyone steps up—maybe someone with G25 or other genetic data could volunteer for a discussion or even a meet-up if it’s feasible.
If you’re serious about it, you might want to start a new thread or poll to gauge interest and get specifics on who’s around and willing. I’m skeptical about Ashkenazi labels myself, as I’ve said, but I’m always up for exploring the data with others. Let me know if you want to bounce ideas around—I’m happy to help brainstorm. Thanks again for the engagement, and looking forward to hearing more!

When someone finds an expert they can only step aside.

[ScandinavianCelt]

Thanks for the screenshot. While I appreciate you sharing your results, I have some serious concerns about your methodology that I think need to be addressed before we can interpret anything from this data. It appears your G25 analysis presents significant methodological flaws that compromise the validity of the results. Your approach, as depicted in the screenshot, raises serious questions about the reliability of the conclusions drawn from it.

Furthermore, I want to point out that my original post, which you are replying to, specifically discussed the genetic relationship between Russian Ashkenazi Jews and *Southern Italians*.
Your screenshot, however, only includes Ashkenazi Jewish samples in your comparison. It lacks any Southern Italian representation, which is crucial for addressing the point I was making.
My analysis was about comparing Ashkenazi Jews *to* Southern Italians, not just looking at variation within Ashkenazi Jews themselves.

First, using 19 samples in a G25 analysis is a massive overfit. G25 is designed to work with a small, carefully selected set of reference populations (ideally around 5). Using so many samples dilutes the signal and makes the results unreliable.
The erratic genetic ranges you're seeing, despite the low FST values, are a direct consequence of this overfitting.

Second, and most importantly, the presence of the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" sample as a significant component (30% or more) in your Ashkenazi samples clearly indicates a fundamental error. This sample is *known* to be mislabeled – it's not a Ukrainian/Slavic sample; it's an Ashkenazi Jewish sample.
Its presence in your results proves that your analysis is flawed and invalidates any conclusions you might draw from it. I'm surprised you didn't catch this, as it's a well-documented issue.

Until these methodological problems are addressed, particularly the mislabeling, the overfitting, *and the inclusion of Southern Italian samples in the analysis*, I don't think we can have a productive discussion about the results. I'd suggest rebuilding your G25 analysis with a smaller, more appropriate set of reference populations (including Southern Italians), and, of course, correcting the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" error.


That is how Ashkenazi fare vs all Modern Pop Averages Scaled at .5x ADC with the purpose of showing what Southern Italian shows up (very little). You can run it yourself at other ADC if you want the full spread.

[ScandinavianCelt]

This is how they fare vs all Modern Scaled Italian samples, and Modern Pop Ave Jewish samples. You can draw your own conclusions.

https://i.postimg.cc/Y9zq8yVL/ashkenazi-vs-ITL-Jews.jpg (https://postimg.cc/CBdgxJww)


and, .5x ADC:

https://i.postimg.cc/mk4VWh86/ash-5xadc.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Lard]

That is how Ashkenazi fare vs all Modern Pop Averages Scaled at .5x ADC with the purpose of showing what Southern Italian shows up (very little). You can run it yourself at other ADC if you want the full spread.

Hi ScandinavianCelt.

Thanks for your reply and the explanation of your analysis's purpose.
I understand you were aiming to show the low levels of Southern Italian admixture in Ashkenazi populations.
However, I still have some significant concerns about the methodology, which I believe need to be addressed before we can draw any reliable conclusions.

While I appreciate you clarifying the intent, simply demonstrating low Southern Italian admixture in Ashkenazim doesn't address my original point about the genetic relationship between the two groups.

My initial post specifically discussed the connection between Russian Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians.
To accurately assess this relationship, a direct comparison is necessary, with both groups represented as targets in the G25 analysis.

Showing that Southern Italians don't contribute heavily to the Ashkenazi gene pool is a separate question, and doesn't negate the need for a direct comparison to understand the nuances of their genetic link.

Could you clarify if you plan on running such an analysis?

Regarding the methodology, I'm still concerned about the overfitting issue.

While you suggest I can run the analysis with different ADC values, simply changing the scaling factor doesn't resolve the fundamental problem of using 19 samples in a G25 analysis.

G25 is designed for a small, carefully chosen set of reference populations.

Using so many dilutes the signal and makes the results unreliable, regardless of the ADC value.

Could you explain your reasoning for using such a large number of reference populations, and why you believe it doesn't compromise the results?

Most importantly, you haven't addressed the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" sample.
This is a critical issue.
As I pointed out, this sample is widely known to be mislabeled; it's an Ashkenazi Jewish sample, not a Ukrainian/Slavic one.
Its presence at such high percentages (for example, 33.6% in Belorussian Jews clearly indicates a fundamental error in your analysis.
This isn't a minor detail; it throws the entire analysis into question.
Ignoring this mislabeling invalidates any conclusions drawn from the data.

Until these methodological issues, especially the mislabeling of the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" sample and the overfitting, are addressed, I don't see how we can have a meaningful discussion about the results.

I'd strongly suggest rebuilding your G25 analysis with a smaller, more appropriate set of reference populations (including Southern Italians as targets for direct comparison), and, of course, correcting the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" error.

Once these corrections are made, I'd be very interested to see the revised results.

[ScandinavianCelt]

I understand you. I already explained what I initially posted. "19 samples" was just the results for all the Ashkenazi samples used.

This is Ashkenazi vs only Italian non-Jewish samples.

https://i.postimg.cc/mg2GYgN4/ash-vs-itl.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


The only samples removed in my original post were all Ashkenazi from the Source, merely to see what Italian was showing up, if any.

They obviously have close genetic distances to non-Jewish Italian samples. I have not studied Ashkenazi origins much, but there are Gedmatch kits for some claiming to be Ashkenazi today which you can find on Google if you look.

If I add in Spanish and Greek in conjunction with Italians (all mod pop ave scaled), the Italians no longer fit them anywhere at NO ADC:

https://i.postimg.cc/1ttxkm3S/ash-vs-esp-grk.jpg (https://postimg.cc/qt9ZndKD)

They do show up at .5x, and more at 2x:

https://i.postimg.cc/gJT05BdM/ash-vs-itl-grk-esp.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Finally, if I add "Italian_Jew" sample, the Calabria drops. It would seem to me these Ashkenazi groups have more Jewish origins than others, especially if only comparing them to the Jewish origins in Italy. I'm guessing the other groups would reflect more Jewish origins if other Jewish groups are further to be added in:

https://i.postimg.cc/85TVkdkh/ash-w-itljew.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Now, with all Jewish groups, along with Spain, Italy, and Greece: at 2x ADC:

https://i.postimg.cc/CxNG6DrR/ashkenazi-vs-itl-esp-grk-jews.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[R1b-L51]

This is how they fare vs all Modern Scaled Italian samples, and Modern Pop Ave Jewish samples. You can draw your own conclusions.

https://i.postimg.cc/Y9zq8yVL/ashkenazi-vs-ITL-Jews.jpg (https://postimg.cc/CBdgxJww)


and, .5x ADC:

https://i.postimg.cc/mk4VWh86/ash-5xadc.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



Hi ScandinavianCelt.

Thanks for your reply and the explanation of your analysis's purpose.
I understand you were aiming to show the low levels of Southern Italian admixture in Ashkenazi populations.
However, I still have some significant concerns about the methodology, which I believe need to be addressed before we can draw any reliable conclusions.

While I appreciate you clarifying the intent, simply demonstrating low Southern Italian admixture in Ashkenazim doesn't address my original point about the genetic relationship between the two groups.

My initial post specifically discussed the connection between Russian Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians.
To accurately assess this relationship, a direct comparison is necessary, with both groups represented as targets in the G25 analysis.

Showing that Southern Italians don't contribute heavily to the Ashkenazi gene pool is a separate question, and doesn't negate the need for a direct comparison to understand the nuances of their genetic link.

Could you clarify if you plan on running such an analysis?

Regarding the methodology, I'm still concerned about the overfitting issue.

While you suggest I can run the analysis with different ADC values, simply changing the scaling factor doesn't resolve the fundamental problem of using 19 samples in a G25 analysis.

G25 is designed for a small, carefully chosen set of reference populations.

Using so many dilutes the signal and makes the results unreliable, regardless of the ADC value.

Could you explain your reasoning for using such a large number of reference populations, and why you believe it doesn't compromise the results?

Most importantly, you haven't addressed the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" sample.
This is a critical issue.
As I pointed out, this sample is widely known to be mislabeled; it's an Ashkenazi Jewish sample, not a Ukrainian/Slavic one.
Its presence at such high percentages (for example, 33.6% in Belorussian Jews clearly indicates a fundamental error in your analysis.
This isn't a minor detail; it throws the entire analysis into question.
Ignoring this mislabeling invalidates any conclusions drawn from the data.

Until these methodological issues, especially the mislabeling of the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" sample and the overfitting, are addressed, I don't see how we can have a meaningful discussion about the results.

I'd strongly suggest rebuilding your G25 analysis with a smaller, more appropriate set of reference populations (including Southern Italians as targets for direct comparison), and, of course, correcting the "Ukrainian Zhytomyr" error.

Once these corrections are made, I'd be very interested to see the revised results.

In the end, if you hear galloping, it's usually horses, not zebras. It's hard to believe that a group of people could have remained isolated long enough to preserve their origins when they've been Polish for centuries and centuries.

I don't have any idea about sampling, but that's what common sense tells me.

[Lard]

@ScandinavianCelt,
Thanks for the additional G25 matrices, but I’m still concerned that the methodological issues I raised earlier remain unaddressed, which undermines our ability to draw reliable conclusions about the genetic relationship I’ve been focusing on—specifically, the direct comparison of Russian Ashkenazi Jews against a range of Southern Italians (e.g., Italian_Jew, Italian_Calabria, Italian_Apulia).
From your latest posts and screenshots (both the one comparing Ashkenazi Jews to Modern Scaled Italian samples and Modern Pop Ave Jewish samples, and the one at 0.5x ADC), I see three major problems:
No Southern Italian Targets: Neither of your datasets includes even a single Southern Italian population as a target, despite my clear emphasis on comparing Russian Ashkenazi Jews to Southern Italians. You mentioned that “Southern Italian shows up (very little)” in your results, but without including these groups directly, it’s impossible to evaluate the genetic overlap I’m investigating. This omission prevents us from addressing the core point of my analysis.

Overfitting with Large Sample Sets: Both matrices still use an excessive number of reference populations (e.g., comparing Ashkenazi Jews to a wide range of Italian and Jewish averages). As I noted before, G25 is designed for a small, carefully selected set of reference populations—ideally around 5—to avoid diluting the signal and producing unreliable distances. In your first dataset, you used 31 samples, which is a massive overfit and likely the reason for the erratic or misleading genetic distances, even at 0.5x ADC. This approach risks skewing the results, and I question the conclusion that Southern Italian ancestry is minimal without a more focused model.

Poor Fit Indicated by Varied Dots: The tiny dots next to each sample in your screenshots, which are supposed to be aligned to show a good fit, are widely varied. This suggests the model isn’t fitting the data well, adding further doubt to the reliability of your results. In a proper G25 analysis, these dots should be closely aligned to indicate a robust fit, but yours indicate significant inconsistency.

We need to refine this analysis to make progress. I suggest rerunning your G25 analysis with a smaller set of reference populations (e.g., 5 or fewer, including Southern Italian samples like Italian_Jew or Italian_Calabria) to directly address the comparison I’ve outlined. You mentioned I could run it myself, but I’d prefer to see your revised results to keep this discussion grounded in your data.
Lard

[ScandinavianCelt]

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.1448% / 0.02144811 | ADC: 2x RC
54.2 Italian_Campania
45.8 Greek_Crete_Chania

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.9363% / 0.01936333 | ADC: 1x RC
41.8 Greek_Crete_Chania
30.6 Turkish_Jew
27.6 Italian_Basilicata

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 0.8986% / 0.00898564 | ADC: 0.5x RC
26.2 Greek_West_Taygetos
22.0 Turkish_Jew
21.2 Greek_Crete_Chania
12.2 Italian_Jew
10.0 Spanish_Canarias
8.4 Cochin_Jew_A

[Lard]

I understand you. I already explained what I initially posted. "19 samples" was just the results for all the Ashkenazi samples used.

This is Ashkenazi vs only Italian non-Jewish samples.

https://i.postimg.cc/mg2GYgN4/ash-vs-itl.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


The only samples removed in my original post were all Ashkenazi from the Source, merely to see what Italian was showing up, if any.

They obviously have close genetic distances to non-Jewish Italian samples. I have not studied Ashkenazi origins much, but there are Gedmatch kits for some claiming to be Ashkenazi today which you can find on Google if you look.

If I add in Spanish and Greek in conjunction with Italians (all mod pop ave scaled), the Italians no longer fit them anywhere at NO ADC:

https://i.postimg.cc/1ttxkm3S/ash-vs-esp-grk.jpg (https://postimg.cc/qt9ZndKD)

They do show up at .5x, and more at 2x:

https://i.postimg.cc/gJT05BdM/ash-vs-itl-grk-esp.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Finally, if I add "Italian_Jew" sample, the Calabria drops. It would seem to me these Ashkenazi groups have more Jewish origins than others, especially if only comparing them to the Jewish origins in Italy. I'm guessing the other groups would reflect more Jewish origins if other Jewish groups are further to be added in:

https://i.postimg.cc/85TVkdkh/ash-w-itljew.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Now, with all Jewish groups, along with Spain, Italy, and Greece: at 2x ADC:

https://i.postimg.cc/CxNG6DrR/ashkenazi-vs-itl-esp-grk-jews.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

@ScandinavianCelt,
Thanks for your detailed reply and the additional G25 screenshots comparing Ashkenazi Jews to various Italian, Greek, Spanish, and Jewish samples. I appreciate you clarifying that your original post used 31 samples (not 19 as initially stated) for all Ashkenazi samples, and I understand your intent to isolate non-Jewish Italian contributions. However, I’m still concerned that these analyses don’t address the core focus of my thread—specifically, the direct genetic comparison between Russian Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, which requires Southern Italian populations as targets in the dataset.
Looking at your screenshots:
The first matrix (Ashkenazi vs. non-Jewish Italian samples like Calabria, Campania, etc.) shows close genetic distances (e.g., Russian Ashkenazi at 64.2 to Italian_Calabria, 18.0 to Italian_Campania), but none of these Italian groups are set as targets—only Ashkenazi Jews are. This doesn’t allow us to evaluate the bidirectional relationship I’m investigating.

The second matrix (2x ADC with Greek and Crete samples) and third (0.5x and 2x ADC with Spanish and Greek added) continue this pattern, still lacking Southern Italian targets like Italian_Jew, Italian_Calabria, or Italian_Apulia.

The fourth matrix (adding Italian_Jew) shows Calabria dropping, and the fifth (all Jewish groups, Spain, Italy, and Greece at 2x ADC) further complicates the picture, but again, no Southern Italian populations are targets. Your observation that Ashkenazi groups might reflect more Jewish origins when compared to Italian_Jew is interesting, but it sidesteps the need for a direct comparison to Southern Italians as I’ve outlined.

My concern remains: none of your datasets include even a single Southern Italian population as a target, despite my repeated emphasis on comparing Russian Ashkenazi Jews to Southern Italians to test my hypothesis about their potential Greco-Roman and Slavic ancestry overlap. Simply showing that Ashkenazi Jews have close distances to non-Jewish Italians or that Italian_Jew influences the fit doesn’t address this specific relationship.
Additionally, the widely varying fit dots in your screenshots (compared to the closely aligned dots in my dataset) suggest ongoing issues with model reliability, likely due to the 31-sample overfit you’ve used. G25 is designed for a small, carefully selected set of reference populations—ideally 5 or fewer—to avoid diluting the signal and producing unreliable distances. This could explain the inconsistencies in your results, especially across different ADC settings.
I suggest rerunning your G25 analysis with Southern Italian populations (e.g., Italian_Jew, Italian_Calabria, Italian_Apulia) as targets, using a smaller, more focused set of reference populations (5 or fewer) to improve fit and reliability. This would directly address my hypothesis and allow us to draw meaningful conclusions about the Ashkenazi-Southern Italian connection, rather than focusing on broader or indirect comparisons.
Lard

[R1b-L51]

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.1448% / 0.02144811 | ADC: 2x RC
54.2 Italian_Campania
45.8 Greek_Crete_Chania

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.9363% / 0.01936333 | ADC: 1x RC
41.8 Greek_Crete_Chania
30.6 Turkish_Jew
27.6 Italian_Basilicata

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 0.8986% / 0.00898564 | ADC: 0.5x RC
26.2 Greek_West_Taygetos
22.0 Turkish_Jew
21.2 Greek_Crete_Chania
12.2 Italian_Jew
10.0 Spanish_Canarias
8.4 Cochin_Jew_A

Put the Hungarians and Poles in the matrix to see what happens

[ScandinavianCelt]

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.9363% / 0.01936333
41.8 Greek_Crete_Chania
30.6 Turkish_Jew
27.6 Italian_Basilicata


Source:

Greek_Crete_Chania,0.111547,0.137604,-0.006411,-0.044574,0.013695,-0.013805,0.00282,-0.004154,-0.000511,0.009112,-0.000731,-0.001424,-0.000818,0.005574,-0.012893,0.003182,0.005541,0.005321,0.0022,-0.002751,0.001996,0.00507,-0.001787,0.003012,-0.004491
Italian_Jew,0.094928,0.145627,-0.018667,-0.056493,0.011294,-0.024542,-0.003995,-0.002792,0.012885,0.019135,0.004514,0.00021,0.0021 56,-0.002876,-0.00661,-0.001233,-0.0012,-0.001052,-0.001119,-0.003589,-0.003906,-0.001546,-0.000123,0.002362,0.002874
Turkish_Jew,0.091912,0.145221,-0.020113,-0.058517,0.006847,-0.021149,-0.004025,-0.003634,0.010201,0.018945,0.004188,0.000531,0.001 876,-0.000803,-0.004914,-0.001597,-0.000755,-0.000454,-0.003588,-0.003408,-0.002511,-0.004003,0.004144,0.001074,0.001622
Italian_Basilicata,0.10927,0.146687,-0.004986,-0.040519,0.013267,-0.015339,0.001044,-0.001667,0.00434,0.019236,0,0.003031,-0.007103,-0.00078,-0.009063,-0.001576,0.005882,-0.000324,0.003366,-0.005127,-0.001886,0.002239,0.002301,0.002691,0.000346

Target:

Ashkenazi_Russia,0.101189,0.131511,-0.006449,-0.038276,0.010371,-0.014335,-0.001951,-0.000185,0.006545,0.01405,0.00112,3e-04,0.002141,0.00033,-0.005035,-0.000265,-0.001213,-0.00057,-0.002137,-0.003126,-0.003569,-0.002955,0.000629,0.004579,-0.001221

[ScandinavianCelt]

Put the Hungarians and Poles in the matrix to see what happens

I did for you:

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.2046% / 0.01204579
65.0 Turkish_Jew
17.6 Greek_Crete_Chania
17.4 Hungarian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.2199% / 0.02219904 | ADC: 2x RC
54.8 Italian_Basilicata
45.2 Greek_Crete_Chania

[R1b-L51]

I did for you:

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.2046% / 0.01204579
65.0 Turkish_Jew
17.6 Greek_Crete_Chania
17.4 Hungarian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.2199% / 0.02219904 | ADC: 2x RC
54.8 Italian_Basilicata
45.2 Greek_Crete_Chania

Thanks SC.

We return to the starting box, the Russian and Polish Ashkenazis and others, are Turanids (that is, they come from Turkic peoples) and the only thing Jewish about them (in genetic terms) is their conversion a few centuries ago to that religion for political reasons. In a few words, pure story.

Plus they are uglier than hitting a parent.

[R1b-L51]

I did for you:

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.2046% / 0.01204579
65.0 Turkish_Jew
17.6 Greek_Crete_Chania
17.4 Hungarian

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.2199% / 0.02219904 | ADC: 2x RC
54.8 Italian_Basilicata
45.2 Greek_Crete_Chania


AKA SATANYAHU

137737

Description:
Northern Turanid variant, has probably been more widespread prior to the Tungid expansion of Hunnic, Avar, and Chasar tribes. Influenced by the old Andronovo type, possibly even early Nordids and Pontids. May be regarded as North Pamirid. Probably common in the Neolithic Samara culture. Today most common in the Kazan Tatars, but also in other Turkic people.

Physical Traits:
Light brown skin, straight or wavy brown-black hair with dark or greenish eyes. Rather tall, mesoskelic, ectomorph to mesomorph. Mildly brachycephalic, mildly hypsicranic. Leptorrhine, sometimes convex nose. Face and angle of the mandible is wide, features robust, eyes mildly slanting, body hair relatively strong, the forehead steep.

Literature:
Henkey and Horvath (1998), who investigated Kazakh, defined the type as Andronovo Turanid, Tóth (1992) found traces in Hungarians. Described as Sarmatian / Eurasian steppe type by Ginsburg (1968) and Bunak (1976), who noted presence in Kazan Tatars. Drontschilow (1915) and Battaglia (1967b) mention traces in Bulgaria. Vondernach (2008) classifies ancient Sarmatians as pred. Pamirid.

[Dušan]

In the end, if you hear galloping, it's usually horses, not zebras. It's hard to believe that a group of people could have remained isolated long enough to preserve their origins when they've been Polish for centuries and centuries.



But they indeed were isolated group for centuries, and have quite different genetics than Poles.
Closest non Jewish population to Ashkenazi Jews are Maltese.

[Dušan]

https://i.imgur.com/HFDgggT.png

Only minor Slavic admixture (cca 5%)

[R1b-L51]

But they indeed were isolated group for centuries, and have quite different genetics than Poles.
Closest non Jewish population to Ashkenazi Jews are Maltese.

Of course, they are no more Slavic than for example Turks, but try other populations of Anatolian Khazar origin such as Turkic Jews, or Judaic Khazar populations of other branches such as the Lithuanian Karaites (another ancient Khazar branches), Uzbeks and Crimeans (Tatars), Bulgarians (Avars), Hungarians (Magyars who shared the Russian Kaganate with the Khazars).


In short, they are nothing more than other populations of Turanid origin within the conglomerate, the Ashkenazis are not special, they are just Turkic tribes closely related either to other Khazarians who live in Turkey and Lithuania, or to the Crimeans and Uzbek Tatars, to the Bulgarians of Avar origin, and even to a certain stratum of the current Hungarians who descend from the Magyars.

Why are they unimportant and have advertising and the rest don't? simply marketing and money, but they are not more Semitic than any of them nor more Mediterranean than any of them to establish a clear difference.

And to clear up doubts, take evidence from all of them and pass them through the G25

[Dušan]

Of course, they are no more Slavic than for example Turks, but try other populations of Anatolian Khazar origin such as Turkic Jews, or Judaic Khazar populations of other branches such as the Lithuanian Karaites (another ancient Khazar branches), Uzbeks and Crimeans (Tatars), Bulgarians (Avars), Hungarians (Magyars who shared the Russian Kaganate with the Khazars).


In short, they are nothing more than other populations of Turanid origin within the conglomerate, the Ashkenazis are not special, they are just Turkic tribes closely related either to other Khazarians who live in Turkey and Lithuania, or to the Crimeans and Uzbek Tatars, to the Bulgarians of Avar origin, and even to a certain stratum of the current Hungarians who descend from the Magyars.

Why are they unimportant and have advertising and the rest don't? simply marketing and money, but they are not more Semitic than any of them nor more Mediterranean than any of them to establish a clear difference.

And to clear up doubts, take evidence from all of them and pass them through the G25

As you can see above, I added Crimean Tatars as reference for Khazars, and they got cca 7%.
Some Khazar tribes indeed converted to Judaism, and they assimilated among Ashkenazi Jews, but their percentage is not high.

[R1b-L51]

As you can see above, I added Crimean Tatars as reference for Khazars, and they got cca 7%.
Some Khazar tribes indeed converted to Judaism, and they assimilated among Ashkenazi Jews, but their percentage is not high.

Oh right, sorry I hadn't realized, very interesting.

Could you try adding the following samples??:

-Uzbeks
-Bulgarians
-Hungarians
-Bulgarian Jews
-Turkish Jews

Thank you very much, I am also eager to clear up my doubts.

[Lard]

As you can see above, I added Crimean Tatars as reference for Khazars, and they got cca 7%.
Some Khazar tribes indeed converted to Judaism, and they assimilated among Ashkenazi Jews, but their percentage is not high.
https://i.ibb.co/B5bZXn0K/Screenshot-2025-03-02-at-11-38-53-Unpacking-Genetic-Ties-A-G25-Comparison-of-Ashkenazi-Jews-and-Sout.png
https://i.ibb.co/DP754dMF/Screenshot-2025-03-02-at-11-32-43-Unpacking-Genetic-Ties-A-G25-Comparison-of-Ashkenazi-Jews-and-Sout.png

Thank you for your input, Dušan, but I’d like to refocus on the core topic of my original post: the significant genetic affinity between Ashkenazi Jews, particularly those from Russia, and Southern Italians, as demonstrated by a direct comparison using the G25 dataset.
My data clearly shows an enormous genetic similarity between these groups, with Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia and Southern Italian populations like Abruzzo, Apulia, Campania, Basilicata, and Sicily sharing strong autosomal ties, dwarfing any potential Khazar ancestry, which appears to be nearly at the level of background noise in this context.
For instance, Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia and Southern Italians both exhibit close genetic distances to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG (50.0 for Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia, 62.6 for Abruzzo) and Levant_Ashkelon_LBA (25.8 for Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia, 21.8 for Abruzzo), indicating a robust shared Greco-Roman and Levantine ancestry that far surpasses any Eastern or Khazar influence.
While it’s a historical fact that the Khazar nobility converted to Judaism, it’s critical to note that this conversion did not extend to their large populations, and any remnants of Khazar ancestry may not be present in Ashkenazi Jews at all, but rather in various Jewish subgroups of the Caucasus, such as Mountain Jews (Juhuro), Georgian Jews, and Krymchaks.
In the G25 screenshot you provided, the small white dots represent outlier points or residuals, which in G25 modeling are specifically termed “outlying coordinates” or “residual outliers.” These indicate widely divergent data points, suggesting a poor match and potential overfitting, where the model fits too closely to noise rather than the underlying genetic signal, compromising its predictive accuracy for new data.
In contrast, my original post was not an overfit, as evidenced by the tight clustering of the dots—termed “coherent coordinates” or “tightly clustered coordinates”—in my G25 modeling, reflecting a reliable and accurate genetic comparison between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, with minimal residual outliers.
Your mention of Crimean Tatars (7%) as a proxy for Khazar ancestry, while interesting, diverts from the overwhelming genetic affinity I’ve highlighted between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, which is the primary focus of my analysis.
I’d appreciate your thoughts on this direct comparison and the substantial shared ancestry it reveals, rather than peripheral historical hypotheses about Khazar contributions.

[Lard]

Hey everyone, I wanted to circle back to my thread, “Unpacking Genetic Ties: A G25 Comparison of Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians,” because I feel it’s starting to veer off-topic, and I’d like to refocus the discussion.
My original goal was to highlight the notable autosomal genetic similarity between Ashkenazi Jews—specifically Russian Jews—and Southern Italians, using G25 genetic distance tables for direct comparisons, as shown in my initial dataset.
Surprisingly, despite this clear affinity, there’s a scarcity of detailed analyses online comparing these groups using tools like G25, which is why I created my dataset to explore how they align genetically.
The findings in my G25 PCA model—a G25 genetic distance table—demonstrate a strong genetic connection, with Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia showing distances like 4.8 to Caucasus_Colchis, 5.8 to Germany_BellBeaker, 50.0 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, and 25.8 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA, while Southern Italians (e.g., Abruzzo at 4.6 to Caucasus_Colchis, 9.6 to Germany_BellBeaker, 62.6 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, and 21.8 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA) show a parallel pattern, underscoring their shared Greco-Roman and Levantine ancestry.
To me, the genetic profile of Russian Jews resembles Southern Italians who, after a period of relative isolation and inbreeding, exchanged some of their Greco-Roman ancestry for Slavic influences during their eastward migration, but this core comparison is what I’m focusing on.
However, some responses have shifted toward discussing Khazar ancestry or other tangential topics, which, while interesting, distract from my specific modeling of Russian Jews against Southern Italians in the target fields using G25.
It’s disappointing that there aren’t more posters sharing their own G25 datasets directly comparing Southern Italians alongside Ashkenazi Jews in the target fields—this feels like a dead zone in population genetics, and I’d love to see more engagement on this precise comparison.
To illustrate this affinity further, I’ve included a direct G25 comparison between Maltese and Russian Jews in the enclosed screenshot, which shows Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia with distances of 5.4 to Caucasus_Colchis, 6.4 to Germany_BellBeaker, 51.2 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, 25.6 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA, 8.4 to NorthAfrica_EN, 0.8 to Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1, and 2.2 to Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA, while Maltese shows 0.0 to Caucasus_Colchis, 6.4 to Germany_BellBeaker, 55.0 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, 25.8 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA, 12.8 to NorthAfrica_EN, 0.0 to Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1, and 0.0 to Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA.
This high genetic affinity between Russian Jews and Maltese—both showing strong ties to Mediterranean and Levantine ancestry—reinforces their connection to Southern Italians, as Maltese also fit within the South Italian genetic cohort, with distances like 7.4 to Caucasus_Colchis, 9.0 to Germany_BellBeaker, 51.8 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, and 18.4 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA in my original dataset.
Historically, the ties between Jews and Maltese trace back to the Roman and Byzantine periods, when Jewish communities were established in Malta, influenced by trade routes and migrations across the Mediterranean, including interactions with Jewish populations in Southern Italy.
Maltese genetics reflect a blend of Southern European, North African, and Levantine ancestry, similar to Southern Italians, due to Malta’s strategic position in the Mediterranean, which facilitated cultural and genetic exchanges with Jewish, Phoenician, and Arab populations over centuries.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this direct comparison and the historical context, staying focused on the genetic affinity between Ashkenazi Jews, Southern Italians, and now Maltese, using G25 modeling—what do you think?

https://i.ibb.co/rGf08DGC/Malteese.png

[Dušan]

https://i.ibb.co/B5bZXn0K/Screenshot-2025-03-02-at-11-38-53-Unpacking-Genetic-Ties-A-G25-Comparison-of-Ashkenazi-Jews-and-Sout.png

Your mention of Crimean Tatars (7%) as a proxy for Khazar ancestry, while interesting, diverts from the overwhelming genetic affinity I’ve highlighted between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, which is the primary focus of my analysis.
I’d appreciate your thoughts on this direct comparison and the substantial shared ancestry it reveals, rather than peripheral historical hypotheses about Khazar contributions.





I’d love to hear your thoughts on this direct comparison and the historical context, staying focused on the genetic affinity between Ashkenazi Jews, Southern Italians, and now Maltese, using G25 modeling—what do you think?

https://i.ibb.co/rGf08DGC/Malteese.png

Even in your model, when comparing with Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews got 2.2% Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA, that is proto-Turkic or proto-Khazar.
And of course, that reference is absent among Maltese.

7% is not so much, its mild admixture.
My model shows cca 33% Levantine ancestry, 55% from Rome, 5% Slavic, 7% from Khazars.
I think it is historicaly correct.

[Balboa]

Even in your model, when comparing with Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews got 2.2% Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA, that is proto-Turkic or proto-Khazar.
And of course, that reference is absent among Maltese.

7% is not so much, its mild admixture.
My model shows cca 33% Levantine ancestry, 55% from Rome, 5% Slavic, 7% from Khazars.
I think it is historicaly correct.

You should use Italian_bergamo as a Roman/Italic proxy, Italian Lazio is already mixed with MENA

[Lard]

Even in your model, when comparing with Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews got 2.2% Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA, that is proto-Turkic or proto-Khazar.
And of course, that reference is absent among Maltese.

7% is not so much, its mild admixture.
My model shows cca 33% Levantine ancestry, 55% from Rome, 5% Slavic, 7% from Khazars.
I think it is historicaly correct.
Dušan, I appreciate your input, but this thread is about the Southern Italian genetic affinity of Ashkenazi Jews, not the Khazar hypothesis.
Your focus on Turkic or Central Asian ancestry is irrelevant to the main question of this thread.

Your model has serious methodological flaws.
The white dots in G25 modeling, known as residuals, should be as closely aligned as possible if the model is well-fitted.
In your case, the residuals are widely scattered, indicating a high error rate and poor statistical fit.
This strongly suggests that your reference populations do not accurately reflect Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.

Additionally, your use of Crimean Tatars as a proxy for Khazars is deeply flawed.
Crimean Tatars are a modern, highly admixed group with Turkic, Mongolic, Slavic, Greek, and Gothic influences.
They are not a direct genetic stand-in for medieval Khazars, whose exact genetic profile remains unknown due to the lack of ancient DNA from their ruling elite.
Assigning 7% "Khazar" ancestry to Ashkenazi Jews based on this reference is speculative at best and misleading at worst.

Another major issue is your overly precise ancestry breakdown.
Claiming exact proportions like "55% Roman, 33% Levantine, 7% Khazar, 5% Slavic" is unrealistic and not how population genetics works.
Ancient populations do not map neatly onto modern groups, and such exact numbers ignore genetic drift, founder effects, and historical migration complexities.
These proportions are likely the result of overfitting, which is further proven by the high residuals in your model.

Your Polish sample also introduces potential bias.
Poland is an enormous country with stark regional genetic differences.
Without clarification on whether your sample is modern or ancient, this could skew results.
If your Polish sample is modern, it may not accurately represent historical populations that contributed to Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.

The actual focus of this thread is the strong genetic connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians.
My data directly supports this affinity, particularly with Southern Italians from regions like Campania, Apulia, and Basilicata.
This aligns with historical and genetic research showing that Ashkenazi Jews descend primarily from a mix of Greco-Roman and Levantine ancestry, with later European admixture.

Furthermore, Southern Italians themselves may be a key source of Ashkenazi Jews' supposed Levantine ancestry.
The overlap of Y-DNA haplogroups J1, J2, and E in both groups suggests deep Mediterranean ties.
Some of these haplogroups are not relics of ancient Israelite ancestry but rather the result of gene flow between Southern Italians and Jews during the Roman period and beyond.
Specific Y-DNA subclades like J2a-M67 and J2a-Z467, which are found in both groups, likely stem from Greco-Roman influence rather than direct Israelite descent.
J1-Z1828, also present in both, may reflect Roman-era Near Eastern migrations.
The E-M123 (E-M34) lineage, common in both Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, may have been introduced through Southern Italian ancestors rather than directly from the Levant.

At the end of the day, the real question is how closely Ashkenazi Jews align with Southern Italians.
My data directly supports this strong connection, which is the intended focus of this thread.
If you have something to add about that specific topic, I’d be happy to discuss.
Otherwise, shifting the conversation to Khazars using an unreliable, high-residual model with potential biases only detracts from the actual analysis.

[R1b-L51]

Hey everyone, I wanted to circle back to my thread, “Unpacking Genetic Ties: A G25 Comparison of Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians,” because I feel it’s starting to veer off-topic, and I’d like to refocus the discussion.
My original goal was to highlight the notable autosomal genetic similarity between Ashkenazi Jews—specifically Russian Jews—and Southern Italians, using G25 genetic distance tables for direct comparisons, as shown in my initial dataset.
Surprisingly, despite this clear affinity, there’s a scarcity of detailed analyses online comparing these groups using tools like G25, which is why I created my dataset to explore how they align genetically.
The findings in my G25 PCA model—a G25 genetic distance table—demonstrate a strong genetic connection, with Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia showing distances like 4.8 to Caucasus_Colchis, 5.8 to Germany_BellBeaker, 50.0 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, and 25.8 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA, while Southern Italians (e.g., Abruzzo at 4.6 to Caucasus_Colchis, 9.6 to Germany_BellBeaker, 62.6 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, and 21.8 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA) show a parallel pattern, underscoring their shared Greco-Roman and Levantine ancestry.
To me, the genetic profile of Russian Jews resembles Southern Italians who, after a period of relative isolation and inbreeding, exchanged some of their Greco-Roman ancestry for Slavic influences during their eastward migration, but this core comparison is what I’m focusing on.
However, some responses have shifted toward discussing Khazar ancestry or other tangential topics, which, while interesting, distract from my specific modeling of Russian Jews against Southern Italians in the target fields using G25.
It’s disappointing that there aren’t more posters sharing their own G25 datasets directly comparing Southern Italians alongside Ashkenazi Jews in the target fields—this feels like a dead zone in population genetics, and I’d love to see more engagement on this precise comparison.
To illustrate this affinity further, I’ve included a direct G25 comparison between Maltese and Russian Jews in the enclosed screenshot, which shows Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia with distances of 5.4 to Caucasus_Colchis, 6.4 to Germany_BellBeaker, 51.2 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, 25.6 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA, 8.4 to NorthAfrica_EN, 0.8 to Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1, and 2.2 to Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA, while Maltese shows 0.0 to Caucasus_Colchis, 6.4 to Germany_BellBeaker, 55.0 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, 25.8 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA, 12.8 to NorthAfrica_EN, 0.0 to Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1, and 0.0 to Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA.
This high genetic affinity between Russian Jews and Maltese—both showing strong ties to Mediterranean and Levantine ancestry—reinforces their connection to Southern Italians, as Maltese also fit within the South Italian genetic cohort, with distances like 7.4 to Caucasus_Colchis, 9.0 to Germany_BellBeaker, 51.8 to Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG, and 18.4 to Levant_Ashkelon_LBA in my original dataset.
Historically, the ties between Jews and Maltese trace back to the Roman and Byzantine periods, when Jewish communities were established in Malta, influenced by trade routes and migrations across the Mediterranean, including interactions with Jewish populations in Southern Italy.
Maltese genetics reflect a blend of Southern European, North African, and Levantine ancestry, similar to Southern Italians, due to Malta’s strategic position in the Mediterranean, which facilitated cultural and genetic exchanges with Jewish, Phoenician, and Arab populations over centuries.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this direct comparison and the historical context, staying focused on the genetic affinity between Ashkenazi Jews, Southern Italians, and now Maltese, using G25 modeling—what do you think?

https://i.ibb.co/rGf08DGC/Malteese.png

I think something that will bother you a lot. I think that the European Jews are nothing more than former Greco-Roman slaves who converted to Judaism. Therefore they should not be called Jews but Greco-Romans.

I think it is the same case with Sephardies.

Both (Sepharad and Ashkenazi) do not have more Semitic markers than those that a Sicilian or a Maltese or even a Cretan might have.

Therefore, for me they are not Jews but simply a Sect of Mediterraneans who did not want to recognize the arrival of the Messiah.

[Lard]

I think something that will bother you a lot. I think that the European Jews are nothing more than former Greco-Roman slaves who converted to Judaism. Therefore they should not be called Jews but Greco-Romans.

I think it is the same case with Sephardies.

Both (Sepharad and Ashkenazi) do not have more Semitic markers than those that a Sicilian or a Maltese or even a Cretan might have.

Therefore, for me they are not Jews but simply a Sect of Mediterraneans who did not want to recognize the arrival of the Messiah.

R1b-L51, I don’t know why you think that would bother me.
I’m apolitical, and I’ve never had an issue acknowledging that much—if not most—of Ashkenazi ancestry is Greco-Roman in origin.
In fact, a significant portion of this ancestry predates Roman rule in Southern Italy, tracing back to Magna Graecia.

The idea that Jews in the diaspora absorbed large amounts of local Mediterranean ancestry is well-supported by both genetic and historical evidence.
The overlap between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Europeans—particularly Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Greeks—is not surprising.
This is exactly why I created this thread: to highlight the strong genetic connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians.

But you seem to be contradicting yourself.
You currently have a thread claiming that Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars, yet here you’re arguing that they’re just Greco-Roman converts.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?393129-CLASSIFY-THIS-SATANIST-KHAZAR-(AND-LITTLE-BASTARD)-CALLED-ZELENSKI
So which is it?
If you’re going to push theories about Jewish origins, at least be consistent.

[R1b-L51]

R1b-L51, I don’t know why you think that would bother me.
I’m apolitical, and I’ve never had an issue acknowledging that much—if not most—of Ashkenazi ancestry is Greco-Roman in origin.
In fact, a significant portion of this ancestry predates Roman rule in Southern Italy, tracing back to Magna Graecia.

The idea that Jews in the diaspora absorbed large amounts of local Mediterranean ancestry is well-supported by both genetic and historical evidence.
The overlap between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Europeans—particularly Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Greeks—is not surprising.
This is exactly why I created this thread: to highlight the strong genetic connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians.

But you seem to be contradicting yourself.
You currently have a thread claiming that Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars, yet here you’re arguing that they’re just Greco-Roman converts.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?393129-CLASSIFY-THIS-SATANIST-KHAZAR-(AND-LITTLE-BASTARD)-CALLED-ZELENSKI
So which is it?
If you’re going to push theories about Jewish origins, at least be consistent.

You see, I knew the ancestry of the Sepharad as ancient Phoenician slaves, and/or Greco-Romans because I am Spanish, in fact the inventor of the Cabalah Mosses of León is a famous Jew among the Jews, apparently they arrived with the first Greeks and before the Romans. In the past Hispania was known as Sepharad.

It is now that I come to find out in this forum that the Ashkenazim are also supposedly Greco-Roman.

For me, the important thing is to know that none of them are really related to the Middle East, therefore their claims in Israel are absurd because their ancestors did not come from there.

That being said, I still believe that perhaps if we dig deeper we will see other Ashkenazim connections with Turanid groups like the Khazars, many times these samples are skewed because Ashkenazim Jews need to justify their connection to Sepharad in some way so as not to look like crazy.

I would really like and need to meet someone of Ashkenazim ethnicity, so I can filter their data on G25 and see if what they say is true or not.

But for now I will accept your theory about the independent Greco-Roman origin of the kingdom of Judea (and which therefore makes its claims completely absurd)

[Lard]

You see, I knew the ancestry of the Sepharad as ancient Phoenician slaves, and/or Greco-Romans because I am Spanish, in fact the inventor of the Cabalah Mosses of León is a famous Jew among the Jews, apparently they arrived with the first Greeks and before the Romans. In the past Hispania was known as Sepharad.

It is now that I come to find out in this forum that the Ashkenazim are also supposedly Greco-Roman.

For me, the important thing is to know that none of them are really related to the Middle East, therefore their claims in Israel are absurd because their ancestors did not come from there.

That being said, I still believe that perhaps if we dig deeper we will see other Ashkenazim connections with Turanid groups like the Khazars, many times these samples are skewed because Ashkenazim Jews need to justify their connection to Sepharad in some way so as not to look like crazy.

I would really like and need to meet someone of Ashkenazim ethnicity, so I can filter their data on G25 and see if what they say is true or not.

But for now I will accept your theory about the independent Greco-Roman origin of the kingdom of Judea (and which therefore makes its claims completely absurd)

R1b-L51, it’s interesting that you acknowledge the deep Greco-Roman and Phoenician ancestry of Sephardic Jews, yet you seem surprised to learn that Ashkenazi Jews also have a significant Greco-Roman component.

This is exactly what my thread is about—the strong genetic overlap between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, which makes sense given historical context.
Jewish communities in the diaspora absorbed local Mediterranean ancestry early on, particularly in places like Magna Graecia and Hispania, long before the rise of the Roman Empire.
Ashkenazi Jews, like Sephardic Jews, carry a mix of Mediterranean and Southern European ancestry, with significant input from Greco-Roman sources.

You also contradict yourself by first accepting my argument that much of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry is Greco-Roman but then suggesting that further analysis might reveal deeper Turanid or Khazar connections.
You can’t have it both ways—either Ashkenazi Jews are Greco-Roman in origin, or they are Khazars, but pushing both theories at once doesn’t make sense.
If your position is based on genetic evidence rather than political views, you should at least be consistent.

Finally, your argument that Jews have no historical claim to Israel because of their Greco-Roman ancestry ignores both history and genetics.
The Judean population itself, before the diaspora, already had Mediterranean influences due to Greek and Phoenician interactions.
Diaspora Jewish communities then continued to mix with local populations, but that doesn’t erase their genetic continuity.
By your logic, no modern European group would have any ancestral ties to their ancient homeland due to admixture over time, which is an unreasonable standard.

What has been largely ignored in studies is the deep genetic connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Southern Italians, as well as Greeks.
Most mainstream research focuses on a simplified Levantine-European dichotomy, when in reality, much of the ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews may have come through Southern Italians rather than directly from the Levant.
This is exactly why I created this thread—to bring attention to the strong genetic ties between Ashkenazim and Southern Italians, which are often overlooked in favor of broader and less specific classifications.

In addition to their Southern European and Greco-Roman ancestry, Ashkenazi Jews also absorbed some Northern European and Slavic admixture over time.
During their migration into Central Europe, Ashkenazim picked up genetic input from Rhineland Germanic populations, as well as later admixture from Slavic groups, particularly in Poland and Russia.
However, what is often overlooked is the role of **Knaanic Jews**, a now-extinct Jewish community that existed in medieval Central Europe and spoke a language related to Old Czech.
These Knaanic Jews likely had significant South Slavic ancestry, as Jewish traders and communities were present in areas such as Moravia, Bohemia, and along the Danube trade routes, where intermixing with Slavic populations would have occurred.
This South Slavic input is often ignored in discussions of Ashkenazi genetic origins, despite evidence of Southern European affinities in Ashkenazi Jews that cannot be fully explained by Italian ancestry alone.

The presence of minor steppe or Siberian-related ancestry in Ashkenazim, which some try to link to Khazars, is far better explained as Slavic gene flow rather than a significant Turkic or Central Asian contribution.
The spread of South Slavic genes into Ashkenazi Jews through Knaanic communities likely played a role in shaping their genetic profile alongside their Southern European and Greco-Roman heritage.

On the Y-DNA side, Ashkenazi Jews have undergone massive genetic drift, meaning certain haplogroups have been disproportionately amplified due to founder effects.
The presence of E-M123, J1-P58, and J2a-M410 in Ashkenazim is often cited as proof of ancient Israelite ancestry, but these same haplogroups were also common among Greco-Roman populations.
Given their high frequencies in Southern Italians, Greeks, and even some Balkan populations, some of this Y-DNA could just as easily be of Greco-Roman or South Slavic origin rather than purely Semitic.
Without careful analysis, it is easy to misinterpret these haplogroups as evidence of direct Middle Eastern descent rather than as markers of historical admixture within the broader Mediterranean and European world.

If you’re serious about filtering Ashkenazi Jewish data in G25, you’ll find that their genetic profile aligns most closely with Southern Italians and Greeks, while also showing some Rhineland Germanic and South Slavic admixture from their time in Europe.
That’s the reality of the data, whether or not it aligns with conventional narratives.