Thracian DNA and pigmentation

[Varda]

Since 2:38


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlQRa3ze6II

9 out of 10 Thracian samples are E1b, mostly E-V13. 1 sample is R1a-Z93.

About 75% of their autosomal DNA was Neolitic, and about 20% of Yamnaya/Steppe origin.

57% had light brown hair
43% had dark brown hair
7 samples
....
75% had brown eyes
25% had blue eyes
8 samples
....
8 samples
1 had pale skin
1 had dark skin
6 had intermediate skin

[Cernunnos]

Where is this Thracian DNA more common?

[Varda]

I think large part if not majority of E-V13 in modern Greeks is of Thracian source. Large part of Thracians were helenized in Roman period. Southern Thracians were helenized and northern were romanized. Smaller part of Thracians (tribe Bessi) avoided both romanization and helenization living isolated in the mountains. Bessi preserved own language, specific identity and even religion up to late atique period according to sources. Non-romanized or semi romanized Thracians (Bessi) were probably proto-Albanians. Romanized Thracians are linguistic and partly genetic ancestors of Romanians and other East Romance speaking Vlach groups.

[Varda]

Where is this Thracian DNA more common?

Albanians, Aromanians and northern Greeks are the closest autosomally to Thracians out of all modern Balkanites. Even Italians are closer to then than South Slavs.

[Varda]

Even before arhaeogenetic researches it was clear that E-V13 was very common haplogroup in Thracians. Because E-V13 is no1 Y DNA in modern Bulgarians, and it is not of Slavic origin. In present day Bulgaria in ancient period before Romans vast majority of population were Thracians.

[Cernunnos]

Albanians, Aromanians and northern Greeks are the closest autosomally to Thracians out of all modern Balkanites. Even Italians are closer to then than South Slavs.

Are they related to Illyrians?

[Beowulf]

Are they related to Illyrians?

According to ancient greeks both Illyrians and Thracians were considered different 'ethnos'

The first known mention of Illyrians occurred in the late 6th and the early 5th century BC in fragments of Hecataeus of Miletus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecataeus_of_Miletus), the author of Genealogies (Γενεαλογίαι) and of Description of the Earth or Periegesis (Περίοδος Γῆς or Περιήγησις), where the Illyrians are described as a barbarian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian) people.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMatijasi%C4%872011293-21)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDzino2014a47%E2%80%9348-22)[note 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-25) In the Macedonian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon) history during the 6th and 5th century BC, the term Illyrian had a political meaning that was quite definite, denoting a kingdom established on the north-western borders of Upper Macedonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Macedonia).[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKati%C4%8Di%C4%871976154%E2%80%93155-26) From the 5th century BC onwards, the term Illyrian was already applied to a large ethnic group whose territory extended deep into the Balkan mainland.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKati%C4%8Di%C4%871976156-27)[note 2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-33) Ancient Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greeks) clearly considered the Illyrians as a completely distinct ethnos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity) from both the neighboring Thracians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) and the Macedonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians).[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#cite_note-FOOTNOTECrossland1982841-34)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians#:~:text=From%20the%205th%20century%20BC, neighboring%20Thracians%20and%20the%20Macedonians.

[Varda]

Are they related to Illyrians?
Illyrians were more northern and western shifted autosomally than Thracians. Several Illyrian samples from Croatia are autosomally the closest to North Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese out of modern population, here is one of them.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=138924&d=1744714900

Among tested Illyrian samples is strong domination of J2b2-M241 and there is R1b in minority (i think U152). Thracians samples are all E1b except 1 which is R1a-Z93. Probably will be found some other haplogroups in both Illyrian and Thracian samples. I expect non-Slavic I2a and G2a in Illyrians and eastern R1b and some J2 in Thracians. Non-Slavic I2a is already founded in Ilyrians in some way. Not in Illyrians proper from western Balkans, but in Daunians from southern Italy which were of Illyrian origin (they were Illyrian colonists in southern Italy). Since Illyrians lived in western and Thracians in eastern Balkan, central Balkans was probably contact zone between them. Some historians think that central Balkan ancient people Dardanians were Illyrian-Thracian mix. Some other believe Dardanians were separate people with possible deeper roots from Asian Minor, but they had Illyrian and Thracian influence.

[Cernunnos]

Illyrians were more northern and western shifted autosomally than Thracians. Several Illyrian samples from Croatia are autosomally the closest to North Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese out of modern population, here is one of them.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=138924&d=1744714900

Among tested Illyrian samples is strong domination of J2b2-M241 and there is R1b in minority (i think U152). Thracians samples are all E1b except 1 which is R1a-Z93. Probably will be found some other haplogroups in both Illyrian and Thracian samples. I expect non-Slavic I2a and G2a in Illyrians and eastern R1b and some J2 in Thracians. Non-Slavic I2a is already founded in Ilyrians in some way. Not in Illyrians proper from western Balkans, but in Daunians from southern Italy which were of Illyrian origin (they were Illyrian colonists in southern Italy). Since Illyrians lived in western and Thracians in eastern Balkan, central Balkans was probably contact zone between them. Some historians think that central Balkan ancient people Dardanians were Illyrian-Thracian mix. Some other believe Dardanians were separate people with possible deeper roots from Asian Minor, but they had Illyrian and Thracian influence.

Do these ancient tribes and languages still have a legacy and impact in modern day Balkan Languages and how Southern Slavs speak?

[Varda]

Do these ancient tribes and languages still have a legacy and impact in modern day Balkan Languages and how Southern Slavs speak?

Ancient Balkan people and tribes were mostly romanized in Roman period and smaller part was helenized. Albanian language is only modern Balkan language (if we not count Greek) with predominantly paleo-Balkanic origin. Albanian language probably originated somewhere in central or eastern Balkans. Linguistic ancestors of Albanians lived obviously somewhere isolated in mountains in Roman period and avoided romanization and helenization. Actaully Albanian language was touched with romanization. Albanian has up tp 40% of Latin origin words, but other elements outside of volabulary are clearly non-Romance (and part of vocabulary as well). Romization of proto-Albanians probably started in the late Roman period and there was no enough time for fully romanization, empire collapsed.

According to some linguits Serbian language has Romance phonetic, not Slavic. Serbian language is quite poor with Romance volabulary. I don't count modern Latin words which came in 19th and especially 20th century via higher educatin, science etc.

In Balkan Romance languages probably exist some paleo-Balkanic influence. They have very few words of paleo-Balkanic origin, but i think higher paleo-Balkanic influence exist in some other languagrće elements. Old man down on video speak Aromanian (since 2:16). That language is more Romance than Romanian and possible with more paleo-Balkanic elements, because Romanian is heavy Slavic influenced.


https://youtu.be/aoa-XfY0RAs

[Cernunnos]

Ancient Balkan people and tribes were mostly romanized in Roman period and smaller part was helenized. Albanian language is only modern Balkan language (if we not count Greek) with predominantly paleo-Balkanic origin. Albanian language probably originated somewhere in central or eastern Balkans. Linguistic ancestors of Albanians lived obviously somewhere isolated in mountains in Roman period and avoided romanization and helenization. Actaully Albanian language was touched with romanization. Albanian has up tp 40% of Latin origin words, but other elements outside of volabulary are clearly non-Romance (and part of vocabulary as well). Romization of proto-Albanians probably started in the late Roman period and there was no enough time for fully romanization, empire collapsed.

According to some linguits Serbian language has Romance phonetic, not Slavic. Serbian language is quite poor with Romance volabulary. I don't count modern Latin words which came in 19th and especially 20th century via higher educatin, science etc.

In Balkan Romance languages probably exist some paleo-Balkanic influence. They have very few words of paleo-Balkanic origin, but i think higher paleo-Balkanic influence exist in some other languagrće elements. Old man down on video speak Aromanian (since 2:16). That language is more Romance than Romanian and possible with more paleo-Balkanic elements, because Romanian is heavy Slavic influenced.


https://youtu.be/aoa-XfY0RAs

Thought that most Southern Slav languages were mostly Slavic with visible ancient paleo-Balkan influence. Never thought those areas were heavily Romanized before the arrival of Slavs.

I've heard about Aromanians, they sound like they were a bunch of Dacian/Romanian people who just migrated out of the Dacian region centuries ago.

[Varda]

Thought that most Southern Slav languages were mostly Slavic with visible ancient paleo-Balkan influence. Never thought those areas were heavily Romanized before the arrival of Slavs.

I've heard about Aromanians, they sound like they were a bunch of Dacian/Romanian people who just migrated out of the Dacian region centuries ago.

That the Slavic migration did not happen most of the Balkans today would be Romance speaking.

Except Romanian and Aromanian in the Balkans existed various Romance languages which disappeared in further or closer past.
For example Dalmatian language does not exist since 1898. when last speaker Tuone Udaina died.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
https://en. m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuone_Udaina (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuone_Udaina)
During the middle age Dalmatian was language of the large part of eastern Adriatic coast. Dalmatian speakers were exposed to both slavization and venetization/italianization. Until late antique period or early middle age Dalmatian was probably language of continental part of western Balkans as well. Hunic, Gotic and Avar invaders killed and enslaved many Dalmatian speakers, and large part escaped from inland to coastal cities. When Slavs arrived most of Dalmatian speakers lived on the coast, eventually some leftovers in inland which survived Huns, Goths and Avars were slavized faster than those living on the coast. Several coastal cities on eastern Adriatic coast plus islands were safe or relatively safe for Dalmatian speakers in the late antique period and early middle age, those cities had strong walls.
Dalmatian belonged to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages, unlike Romanian and Aromanian which are clasified as East Romance.


https://youtu.be/ZJntE70KPcc

[Dušan]

Thought that most Southern Slav languages were mostly Slavic with visible ancient paleo-Balkan influence. Never thought those areas were heavily Romanized before the arrival of Slavs.


Of course it was completly Romanized.
17 Roman emperors were born in teritory of modern Serbia.

Sirmium (todays Sremska Mitrovica) and Naissus (todays Niš) were important cities in Roman empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirmium

[Sulioti]

Ancient Balkan people and tribes were mostly romanized in Roman period and smaller part was helenized. Albanian language is only modern Balkan language (if we not count Greek) with predominantly paleo-Balkanic origin. Albanian language probably originated somewhere in central or eastern Balkans. Linguistic ancestors of Albanians lived obviously somewhere isolated in mountains in Roman period and avoided romanization and helenization. Actaully Albanian language was touched with romanization. Albanian has up tp 40% of Latin origin words, but other elements outside of volabulary are clearly non-Romance (and part of vocabulary as well). Romization of proto-Albanians probably started in the late Roman period and there was no enough time for fully romanization, empire collapsed.

According to some linguits Serbian language has Romance phonetic, not Slavic. Serbian language is quite poor with Romance volabulary. I don't count modern Latin words which came in 19th and especially 20th century via higher educatin, science etc.

In Balkan Romance languages probably exist some paleo-Balkanic influence. They have very few words of paleo-Balkanic origin, but i think higher paleo-Balkanic influence exist in some other languagrće elements. Old man down on video speak Aromanian (since 2:16). That language is more Romance than Romanian and possible with more paleo-Balkanic elements, because Romanian is heavy Slavic influenced.


https://youtu.be/aoa-XfY0RAs

Albanians are native in the territory where they live. There is not any documented movement of the Albanians from Central or Eastern Balkans in the territory where they live today. There are many theories but no historic reference of any migration.

[Dardanos]

I think large part if not majority of E-V13 in modern Greeks is of Thracian source. Large part of Thracians were helenized in Roman period. Southern Thracians were helenized and northern were romanized. Smaller part of Thracians (tribe Bessi) avoided both romanization and helenization living isolated in the mountains. Bessi preserved own language, specific identity and even religion up to late atique period according to sources. Non-romanized or semi romanized Thracians (Bessi) were probably proto-Albanians. Romanized Thracians are linguistic and partly genetic ancestors of Romanians and other East Romance speaking Vlach groups.


How can you claim that Albanians could possibly be Bessi when pre-Ottoman, Ottoman, and modern Albanians all cluster more closely with Iron Age Croatian samples than with Iron Age Bulgarian ones? How is that scientifically possible?

Sources:
Studies such as Mathieson et al. (2018) and Clemente et al. (2020) demonstrate that modern Albanians exhibit strong genetic continuity with Bronze and Iron Age populations of the western Balkans

[Dušan]

How can you claim that Albanians could possibly be Bessi when pre-Ottoman, Ottoman, and modern Albanians all cluster more closely with Iron Age Croatian samples than with Iron Age Bulgarian ones? How is that scientifically possible?

Sources:
Studies such as Mathieson et al. (2018) and Clemente et al. (2020) demonstrate that modern Albanians exhibit strong genetic continuity with Bronze and Iron Age populations of the western Balkans

Bullshit.


Iron Age Croatia clusters with between modern North Italian and Spanish.

https://i.imgur.com/BvQlw0v.png


Albanians are nowhere near.

https://i.imgur.com/4vEC9YX.jpeg

[Georgia]

Where is this Thracian DNA more common?

The area known as “Thrace” in ancient times is now divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey.

139730

I grew up in Greek Thrace.

[Georgia]

Albanians, Aromanians and northern Greeks are the closest autosomally to Thracians out of all modern Balkanites. Even Italians are closer to then than South Slavs.
How about Thracian Bulgarians and Thracian Turks ?

[Dušan]

How about Thracian Bulgarians and Thracian Turks ?

Pre-Slavic component of all Balkan Slavs is more Thracian than Illyrian.

It is because during Roman revolts population of Illyrians decreased a lot, and west Balkans got new population from eastern part of Balkans, and partly also from Anatolia.

[Varda]

How about Thracian Bulgarians and Thracian Turks ?

They are further. Because Bulgarians have large Slavic input, and Balkan Turks large Anatolian (plus some Slavic and Turkic) influence.

Few days ago on the forum of 'Serbian DNA project' in have seen something interesting. One guy which is pretty familiar with autosomal DNA wrote that Serbs are in the same time more Slavic and more paleo-Balkanic than Bulgarians. For more Slavic i know long time ago, but that second was surprise to me. He said most of non-Slavic autosomal admixtute in Bulgarians is Anatolian related so called Roman Imperial, on the other hand most of non-Slavic in Serbs is paleo-Balkanic. He said large part of romanized Thracians moved more western and southern from Bulgaria in the late antique period and early middle age, some died in barbarian invasions in that period, and early Byzantine emperors brought people from Anatolia, Levant and Armenia to what is now Bulgaria to refersh demographically that region. Later arrived Slavs and Bulgars and mixed with that people and with leftovers of Thracians, it was beginning of the ethnogenesis of modern Bulgarians.

[Georgia]

Pre-Slavic component of all Balkan Slavs is more Thracian than Illyrian.

It is because during Roman revolts population of Illyrians decreased a lot, and west Balkans got new population from eastern part of Balkans, and partly also from Anatolia.


They are further. Because Bulgarians have large Slavic input, and Balkan Turks large Anatolian and some Turkic influence.

Few days ago on the forum of 'Serbian DNA project' in have seen something interesting. One guy which is pretty familiar with autosomal DNA wrote that Serbs are in the same time more Slavic and more paleo-Balkanic than Bulgarians. For more Slavic i know long time ago, but that second was surprise to me. He said most of non-Slavic autosomal admixtute in Bulgarians is Anatolian related so called Roman Imperial, on the other had most of non-Slavic in Serbs is paleo-Balkanic. He said large part of romanized Thracians moved more western and southern from Bulgaria in the late antique period and early middle age, some died in barbarian invasions in that period, and early Byzantine emperors brought people from Anatolia, Levant and Armenia to what is now Bulgaria to refersh demographically that region. Later arrived Slavs and Bulgars and mixed with that people and with leftovers of Thracians, it was beginning of the ethnogenesis of modern Bulgarians.
Thanks for the info guys!

I have always viewed Bulgarians as a mix of Thracians, Slavs and Bulgars, I had no idea the Thracians moved from Bulgaria to Serbia!

It explains why the Bulgarians look so different on average compared to the rest of Balkan people.

[Dick]

Thrace was a heroine in Greek mythology. I wonder if they actually called themselves that. Ancient Triballi in what is today Serbia were considered to be a “Thracian” tribe.

Ancient Greeks also called modern day Thrace “Europe”

[Dick]

As an existing people, the Triballi are mentioned for the last time by Roman historian Appian (2nd century CE). According to Appian, the Triballi were reduced in numbers through their wars against the Scordisci and fled among the Getae, north of the Danube before they went extinct as a distinct people

Scordisci were a Celtic tribe that founded today’s Belgrade or back then Singidun, Dun in Gaelic means fortified hill such as Dunfermline etc

[Dardanos]

Bullshit.


Iron Age Croatia clusters with between modern North Italian and Spanish.

https://i.imgur.com/BvQlw0v.png


Albanians are nowhere near.

https://i.imgur.com/4vEC9YX.jpeg

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1.full

The establishment of the BA-IA Balkan genetic cline
We next examined the projections of Bronze Age (BA) and Iron Age (IA) Balkan populations upon the principal components generated earlier (Fig. 4). By the Middle-Late Bronze Age (MLBA) and the Iron Age, the genetic ancestry of Balkan populations had become less heterogenous, exhibiting a north-to-south cline that broadly reflects geography (Fig. 4A). Accordingly, the MLBA-IA samples from Çinamak in Albania are clinal between contemporary populations from Croatia and Montenegro on one side of PC1 and PC2, and from North Macedonia and northern Greece on the other side (Fig. 4B). This affinity is further corroborated by f3-statistics (Fig. S2D, E) and Mobest analysis (Fig. S4), which employs an algorithm for spatiotemporal mapping of genetic profiles using bulk aDNA data (57). Formal f4-models with qpAdm using ultimate sources indicate a uniform genetic profile and a resurgence of farmer ancestry across the Central-West Balkans and northern Greece compared with the preceding EBA, as most samples derive around 60% of their ancestry from EEFs, 0-5% from Iran N, and 30-40% from steppe populations (Fig. 3B; Table S5). In the southern end of the Balkan genetic cline, Bronze Age and Iron Age populations of central-southern Greece and Bulgaria have considerably higher EEF (75-80%) and Iran N (5-10%) ancestry, and a much lower proportion of steppe ancestry (15-20%) (Fig. 3B; Table S5).

The close clustering of BA-IA populations from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and northern Greece is also confirmed in proximate qpAdm models, as the Çinamak MLBA-IA samples derive most of their ancestry from the West Balkans (Tables S8-S9), with a possible 15-25% contribution from a southeast Balkan source (Bulgaria EIA, Greece BA Mycenaean) after the Middle Bronze Age (MBA) (Table S9). Based on the above, the MBA-IA populations of a large geographic region spanning northern Greece, North Macedonia and the entire Adriatic coast, including the region of modern Albania, form a uniform genetic cluster with similar admixture proportions (Fig. 3B) that persists for at least 1.500 years and transcends the linguistic boundaries identified by classical authors (7, 9). Our findings are further reinforced by IBD-sharing between certain samples from Albania and North Macedonia (Table S20) (50).

139735

[Dardanos]

Given that some linguistic hypotheses suggest a mixed West Balkan and Thracian origin for the Medieval population of Albania (2, 64), we undertake an f4 qpAdm test combining Roman era West Balkan, East Balkan (the two outliers from Early Avar Hungary), and Slavic-related (Russia IA Ingria) sources. Albania Mdv is once again effectively modelled as being 100% of Roman era West Balkan origin (Croatia Roman Gardun, Montenegro Roman Doclea), or as a two-way mix of a Roman period West Balkan source (85%) and a Slavic-related source (15%) with high support (p = 0.16; SE = 0.04) (Table S15). Two-way or three-way models with West Balkan + East Balkan or West Balkan + East Balkan + Slavic-related sources also passed with low statistical support (SE = 0.12 and SE = 0.09-0.14, respectively), recovering Albania Mdv as deriving 45-60% of their ancestry from the two Thracian-shifted Avar era outliers (Table S15), a finding that may also receive support from f3-statistics (Fig. S2F). Furthermore, models using the Avar era outliers as the sole palaeo-Balkan source for Albania Mdv receive high support (p = 0.72; SE = 0.03; Table S15). However, it is unlikely that the Avar era outliers are realistic local sources due the fact that such significant ancestry shifts would have pulled Albania Mdv samples towards the direction of southeastern Balkan populations on the PCA, which is not the case (Fig. 5A, B). Overall, the PCA and f4 qpAdm statistical models suggest that the Medieval population of Albania was minimally affected by demographic changes during the Roman era, in stark contrast to adjacent regions such as Croatia and Serbia (Fig. 5A). However, currently unsampled urbanised areas in Albania such as Durrës and Shkodër, may have comprised populations of more complex ancestry.

[Frotous]

Pre-Slavic component of all Balkan Slavs is more Thracian than Illyrian.

It is because during Roman revolts population of Illyrians decreased a lot, and west Balkans got new population from eastern part of Balkans, and partly also from Anatolia.

This is interesting because my Paleo-Balkanic component is much more Illyrian and barely Thracian

Of course Slavic too

[Frotous]

Thrace was a heroine in Greek mythology. I wonder if they actually called themselves that. Ancient Triballi in what is today Serbia were considered to be a “Thracian” tribe.

Ancient Greeks also called modern day Thrace “Europe”

I’ve seen Serbs claim Triballi and say they are apart of our ethnogenesis

[Dick]

I’ve seen Serbs claim Triballi and say they are apart of our ethnogenesis

The boars head (or wild boar's head) is a prominent symbol associated with Serbia, particularly linked to the ancient Triballi tribe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Triballia

[Varda]

Thanks for the info guys!

I have always viewed Bulgarians as a mix of Thracians, Slavs and Bulgars, I had no idea the Thracians moved from Bulgaria to Serbia!

It explains why the Bulgarians look so different on average compared to the rest of Balkan people.

Good example of the migrations of Thraco-Vlachs from eastern Balkans to Serbian lands in the middle age are Mataruge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge
First i must say Albo trolls violated Wikipedia with fantasies how Mataruge were Albanian tribe. 'Serbian DNA project' determinated Y DNA of Mataruge, it is E-F104106 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT104106/). There is no any Albanian in that branch which old about 1000 years, but 1 Bulgarian and others are Serbs and Montenegrins. Serbs from various regions carry Mataruga hoplotype. I think among Herzegovinian Serbs most of the E-V13 is Mataruga branch. Mataruge appeared in present day Montenegro the latest up to 13th century. Their haplotype indicate on deeper origin from former Thracian zone more eastern than Montenegro. Maybe they left present day western Bulgaria or area near modern Serbian-Bulgarian border in 9th century and moved more western because of Bulgar invasion. It seems part of Thraco-Vlachs escaped to the west in medieval Serbian lands in 9th century from what is now western Bulgaria and eastern Serbia because of Bulgar invasion.

[Dušan]

Given that some linguistic hypotheses suggest a mixed West Balkan and Thracian origin for the Medieval population of Albania (2, 64), we undertake an f4 qpAdm test combining Roman era West Balkan, East Balkan (the two outliers from Early Avar Hungary), and Slavic-related (Russia IA Ingria) sources. Albania Mdv is once again effectively modelled as being 100% of Roman era West Balkan origin (Croatia Roman Gardun, Montenegro Roman Doclea), or as a two-way mix of a Roman period West Balkan source (85%) and a Slavic-related source (15%) with high support (p = 0.16; SE = 0.04) (Table S15). .

Roman era West Balkans have nothing in common with Iron Age West Balkans.

https://i.imgur.com/RXft3J4.png

[Frotous]

Good example of the migrations of Thraco-Vlachs from eastern Balkans to Serbian lands in the middle age are Mataruge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge
First i must say Albo trolls violated Wikipedia with fantasies how Mataruge were Albanian tribe. 'Serbian DNA project' determinated Y DNA of Mataruge, it is E-F104106 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT104106/). There is no any Albanian in that branch which old about 1000 years, but 1 Bulgarian and others are Serbs and Montenegrins. Serbs from various regions carry Mataruga hoplotype. I think among Herzegovinian Serbs most of the E-V13 is Mataruga branch. Mataruge appeared in present day Montenegro the latest up to 13th century. Their haplotype indicate on deeper origin from former Thracian zone more eastern than Montenegro. Maybe they left present day western Bulgaria or area near modern Serbian-Bulgarian border in 9th century and moved more western because of Bulgar invasion. It seems part of Thraco-Vlachs escaped to the west in medieval Serbian lands in 9th century from what is now western Bulgaria and eastern Serbia because of Bulgar invasion.

They did the same thing with Piperi, Bjelopavlići and Kriči

Typical behavior

[Varda]

They did the same thing with Piperi, Bjelopavlići and Kriči

Typical behavior

Kriči were Latin speaking Vlachs, not Albos as Shiptar trolls wrote at Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
Kriči were probably East Romance speakers. They lived aroubd Durmitor which has meaning in East Romance, probably Kriči named Durmitor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor
Kriči were J2b1-Y22059, vast majority in that branch are South Slavs (mostly Serbs)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/
In 13th century Kriči still were Romance speakers, in 14th they were probably semi-slavized/serbified (bilingual), and in 15th they are fully slavized/serbified.

[djipon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3H1HeRYXxQ

This could be helpful

[djipon]

A quick model with samples on Illustrative:

My father:

https://i.postimg.cc/PqTtZJQH/image.png

My mother:

https://i.postimg.cc/265rcttX/image.png

Me:

https://i.postimg.cc/5yY11CbB/image.png

[Varda]

Kriči were Latin speaking Vlachs, not Albos as Shiptar trolls wrote at Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
Kriči were probably East Romance speakers. They lived aroubd Durmitor which has meaning in East Romance, probably Kriči named Durmitor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor
Kriči were J2b1-Y22059, vast majority in that branch are South Slavs (mostly Serbs)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/
In 13th century Kriči still were Romance speakers, in 14th they were probably semi-slavized/serbified (bilingual), and in 15th they are fully slavized/serbified.

Kriči possible have roots somewhere more eastern than Monrenegro, like Mataruge. Area where Kriči lived is former Illyrian, and native Vlachs from there should be Dalmatian speakers which was language of romanized Illyrians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
Kriči were probably East Romance speakers like Romanians and Aromanians which are Thracian derivate if we remove Slavic admixture in them. If Kriči came from the east it happened before 13th century, in that century they are recorded around Durmitor. Name of one leader of Kriči from 13th century was Kaloka. It is clearly non-Slavic name, but origin is debatable. On one Serbian forum it was discussion about origin and meaning of name Kaloka, is it Vlach, Greek or of some other origin.

Since some Aromanians (among South Slavs known as Cincari) as semi nomadic sheperds migrated from Epirus to very distant western Bosnia few centuries ago where they were present with sheaps part of year, it is nothing weird that Kriči permanently settled to closer Durmutor somowhere from east in the early or high middle age. Mountain Cincar was named by Aromanian (Cincars) which were present there temporarly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincar

[Varda]

One interesting legend from Pljevlja area https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pljevlja

Toponym Greek cemetery indicate that in this area once lived Greeks. According to legend Greeks left this area because of huge snow and cold weather. They did it one spring when in plowing time fell huge snow and ground has frozen. They stuck the plow into the snow and went somowhere on a sled. Legend says that durring migration they loaded the sled with a cauldron full of gold, but near the place known as Gradac (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradac,_Pljevlja) the sled broke. Because there was much gold
and they couldn't carry it, they burried the gold on the place where the sled broke.

Maybe Greeks from the legend were actually Kriči. Maybe Serbs for some reason sometimes called them like that or confused them with Greeks. Kriči indeed lived in Durmitor-Pljevlja area. Story about sled full of gold is construction, but maybe was inspired with some real event.

[Frotous]

Kriči possible have roots somewhere more eastern than Monrenegro, like Mataruge. Area where Kriči lived is former Illyrian, and native Vlachs from there should be Dalmatian speakers which was language of romanized Illyrians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
Kriči were probably East Romance speakers like Romanians and Aromanians which are Thracian derivate if we remove Slavic admixture in them. If Kriči came from the east it happened before 13th century, in that century they are recorded around Durmitor. Name of one leader of Kriči from 13th century was Kaloka. It is clearly non-Slavic name, but origin is debatable. On one Serbian forum it was discussion about origin and meaning of name Kaloka, is it Vlach, Greek or of some other origin.

Since some Aromanians (among South Slavs known as Cincari) as semi nomadic sheperds migrated from Epirus to very distant western Bosnia few centuries ago where they were present with sheaps part of year, it is nothing weird that Kriči permanently settled to closer Durmutor somowhere from east in the early or high middle age. Mountain Cincar was named by Aromanian (Cincars) which were present there temporarly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincar

Interesting

What about Piperi and Bjelopavlići?

Piperi is R1b and Bjelopavlići are EV13 majority I believe

[Dardanos]

Roman era West Balkans have nothing in common with Iron Age West Balkans.

https://i.imgur.com/RXft3J4.png

While there's a genetic shift from the Iron Age to the Roman era in the West Balkans, the data clearly contradicts the idea that Albanians descend from Bessi brought by the Bulgarian Empire.

The evidence shows E-V13 entered the region of modern Albania around 500 CE, likely from nearby Balkan groups, aligning with local continuity rather than external migration.

[Dardanos]

Despite being one of the most frequent haplogroups in modern Balkan populations (67, 80–83), the origins of E-V13 are enigmatic. The earliest record of this haplogroup among historically attested groups is in BA-IA Bulgaria (Figs. 8-9, S10), suggesting an association with the people known as the “Thracians”. By the early Roman era, E-V13 likely experienced significant demographic increase, as it appears at medium to high frequencies in areas where in the preceding Bronze and Iron Age it was either very rare (Croatia, Hungary) or entirely absent (Serbia) (Figs. 8-9). An association of the expansion of E-V13 with southeastern Balkan populations from the Thracian world is reinforced by one of the Avar-era outliers from Hungary, who is assigned to E-V13 and clusters with BA-IA populations from Bulgaria on the PCA (Fig. 5A), an affinity confirmed by qpAdm (Table S14), and IBD-sharing (Table S21) (50). A Scythian from Moldova (Table S21) who clusters close to Balkan IA populations (Fig. 4A) and belongs to E-V13 (Fig. S10) also displays IBD-sharing with Bulgaria IA (Table 21). Our findings support late Roman historical records which mention the presence of “Thracian” groups known as the “Bessi” throughout the Balkans until the 6th century CE (2, 36, 62, 64).

However, not all populations with E-V13 were characterised by a Bulgaria EIA-like autosomal profile, as shown by the two E-V13-bearing Himera mercenaries (Fig. 4), who were likely related to EBA-LBA populations from Serbia (Supplementary Methods; Table S10). Furthermore, several Roman-era samples with a West Balkan autosomal profile [(Croatia: Sipar R3664, Ščitarjevo R3659); Serbia (Viminacium R6756)] also harboured E-V13 (Tables S23, S28). This does not exclude a Thracian origin, as the historical region of Dardania (roughly modern Kosovo, southern Serbia, and western North Macedonia) is recorded as a zone of linguistic contact between “Illyrian” and “Daco-Thracian” groups (Fig. S7) (1, 7). It is therefore likely that the population that introduced E-V13 into Albanians would plot close to Roman era West Balkan groups. Remarkably, several E-V13 subclades found in Avar and Medieval era Hungary, as well as in one of the Himera mercenaries, are characterized by sister or daughter branches that comprise almost exclusively Albanians (Table S34). Whether the individuals from Hungary had an ultimately Balkan origin is unknown, as most do not share IBD segments with Balkan populations and are significantly admixed with northern European and Central Asian populations (Table S21).

To obtain insights on the ethnogenesis of modern Albanians, we plot the mean Y-full TMRCAs of Albanian-specific subclades of E-V13, J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611 and other palaeo-Balkan haplogroups (R1b-PF7562, I-M223) (Fig. 10). Remarkably, a majority of these haplogroups (J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611, R1b-PF7562, I-M223) experience a sudden and steep increase in subclade diversity between 500-800 CE (Fig. 10), which coincides with the timing proposed by linguistic and historical hypotheses on the origins of Albanians and their language (33–35, 64, 84), as well as IBD-sharing analyses (72). The low number of diversifying subclades prior to 500 CE is likely caused by missing data, probably due to significant loss of diversity associated with the demographic turmoil of the Migration Period.
Unlike the abovementioned haplogroups, E-V13 exhibits continuous subclade diversification from the Bronze Age to the Roman period (Fig. 10), suggesting that populations with a high frequency of E-V13 may have followed a different demographic trajectory from those with J2b-Z600, R1b-BY611, R1b-PF7562, and I-M223. The rate of E-V13 subclade diversification increased steeply from 500 CE onwards, following the pattern of the other haplogroups found in modern Albanians (Fig. 10). Based on the above, it is possible that currently unsampled populations from the Central-West Balkan interior that were characterised by high frequencies of E-V13 may have entered the region of modern Albania around 500 CE, where they merged and co-expanded with local groups. This may also explain the absence of E-V13 from the aDNA transect of Albania, despite being the commonest haplogroup in the modern Albanian population.

Together with qpAdm and IBD data, the principal Y-chromosome haplogroups add further evidence for large-scale continuity of modern Albanians from local groups, without excluding the possibility of admixture with neighbouring palaeo-Balkan populations. Continuity is also mirrored in rarer lineages, such as haplogroup T-Y206597, found in the Medieval individual from Kënetë (Table S34), which today comprises almost exclusively Albanians (77).

[Varda]

9 out of 10 Thracian samples are E1b, mostly E-V13. 1 sample is R1a-Z93.

For now only 6 Serbs are R1a-Z93 and all of them are from Serbia. Their surnames are Aleksić, Pejkić, Dončić, Pavić, Račić and Stanković https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=391.msg208017#msg208017
Aleksić is from Boljevac
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boljevac
Pejkić is from Jelovac https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelovac
Dončić is from Biča (cousin of Luka Dončić) https://sh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biča
For others is still unknown exact origin.
Further origin of family Pejkić from Jelovac according to legend is from Peć area in western part of Kosovo (Metohija), they are probably related with family Dončić from Biča. These R1a-Z93 Serbs with known precise origin are from former Thracian and Dardanian zone.

[Sulioti]

Kriči were Latin speaking Vlachs, not Albos as Shiptar trolls wrote at Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
Kriči were probably East Romance speakers. They lived aroubd Durmitor which has meaning in East Romance, probably Kriči named Durmitor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor
Kriči were J2b1-Y22059, vast majority in that branch are South Slavs (mostly Serbs)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/
In 13th century Kriči still were Romance speakers, in 14th they were probably semi-slavized/serbified (bilingual), and in 15th they are fully slavized/serbified.

Albanian troll on Wikipedia? lol. Your comment is a copy-paste from Serb Wikipedia.

[Varda]

Albanian troll on Wikipedia? lol. Your comment is a copy-paste from Serb Wikipedia.

Dude, that tribe had nothing to do with Albanians. They were East Romance speaking Vlachs with Levantine paternal line which arrived in the Balkans probably in Roman period. In the late middle age Kriči were serbified.

[gixajo]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=138924&d=1744714900

.

Which sample is this?

[Varda]

Kriči which moved from present day NW Montenegro to Dalmatian hinterland in 16th century founded village Kričke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kričke,_Šibenik-Knin_County

It was mixed village until 1990s. In 1991. Orthodoxes/Serbs were about 2/3 and Catholics/Croatians aboout 1/3. Orthodoxes lived in upper and lower Kričke, and Catholics in middle Kričke. Village is known as center of Uniate movement in Dalmatia in 19th century. Orthodox priest Petar Krička converted to Greek-Catholicism in 1832. In the next 10-15 years some local Orthodox people from Kričke and surrounding villages also converted to Greek-Catholicism. Their peak was about 850 people in mid of 19th century. Later most of them returned to Orthodoxy, mostly until early 20th century and few family returned in 1930s. Small minority of Uniates become Roman Catholics.

[Sulioti]

Dude, that tribe had nothing to do with Albanians. They were East Romance speaking Vlachs with Levantine paternal line which arrived in the Balkans probably in Roman period. In the late middle age Kriči were serbified.

Dude, it`s according to YOUR scholars and not some imaginary "Albanian trolls" that this tribe along with many others were Albanians. Their serbianization started during the reign of Stefan Dushan.
Read below and learn from primary sources the ethnic composition of Montenegro and more on the 14 century.
1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage (http://www.albanianhistory.net/1332_Making-the-Passage/index.html)

[hazmatnik]

Good example of the migrations of Thraco-Vlachs from eastern Balkans to Serbian lands in the middle age are Mataruge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge.

I plot all my and my aunts autosomal matches (thats called IBD analysis) and there is some connection between Shopluk and Montenegro visible on my maternal aunt map (100% SE Serbia origins)

https://i.postimg.cc/mgrszjPf/Untitled-1-4.jpg (https://postimg.cc/w7nPnh50)

[gixajo]

Dude, that tribe had nothing to do with Albanians. They were East Romance speaking Vlachs with Levantine paternal line which arrived in the Balkans probably in Roman period. In the late middle age Kriči were serbified.

Could you please tell me which is the code of that Thracian individual? Wiich individual is it?

[Benyzero]

beautiful brown people

[Dušan]

Kriči which moved from present day NW Montenegro to Dalmatian hinterland in 16th century founded village Kričke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kričke,_Šibenik-Knin_County


The are two villages Kričke.

Beside that one in Dalmatia, the other one is near Pakrac in Slavonia.
Pure Serbian village.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Dke,_Sisak-Moslavina_County

[Dušan]

Which sample is this?


Could you please tell me which is the code of that Thracian individual? Wiich individual is it?


Here:



Bullshit.


Iron Age Croatia clusters with between modern North Italian and Spanish.

https://i.imgur.com/BvQlw0v.png


Albanians are nowhere near.

https://i.imgur.com/4vEC9YX.jpeg

[gixajo]

Here:

Thanks.

I3313 is the mother of I26742, both from Croatian Early Iron Age


Bulgaria_Dzhulyunitsa_IA:I5769.AG__BC_642__Cov_62. 24%,0.125205,0.155376,0.010182,-0.050711,0.03416,-0.025937,0.003525,0.000462,0.008795,0.031527,0.000 974,0.004646,-0.015609,-0.004129,-0.017101,-0.005171,0.012908,0.006208,0.00729,-0.014632,-0.00861,0.003462,-0.001232,0.007109,-0.012454
Croatia_EIA:I3313.AG__BC_772__Cov_70.29%,0.127482, 0.149283,0.034695,-0.011951,0.02739,-0.003347,-0.005405,0.009,0.007363,0.02934,0.003085,0.005245,-0.023042,0.001101,-0.007057,-0.008088,-0.008214,0.004687,0.004399,-0.014882,-0.003868,0.00779,0.001356,-0.003976,0.001916

[Dušan]

Thanks.

I3313 is the mother of I26742, both from Croatian Early Iron Age

Distance to: Croatia_EIA:I3313.AG__BC_772__Cov_70.29%
0.02622003 Italian_Lombardy
0.02746488 Italian_Bergamo
0.03127709 Italian_Veneto
0.03130268 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.03218537 Italian_Piedmont
0.03297356 Italian_Liguria
0.03380270 Italian_Emilia
0.03616092 Swiss_Italian
0.03679957 French_Corsica
0.03740266 Italian_Northeast

Distance to: Bulgaria_Dzhulyunitsa_IA:I5769.AG__BC_642__Cov_62. 24%
0.04044486 Italian_Lazio
0.04316706 Italian_Molise
0.04324290 Italian_Apulia
0.04357136 Italian_Umbria
0.04386215 Italian_Marche
0.04418129 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04456962 French_Corsica
0.04470781 Italian_Basilicata
0.04495803 Greek_Apulia
0.04620634 Italian_Campania





Target: Croatia_EIA:I3313.AG__BC_772__Cov_70.29%
Distance: 2.4236% / 0.02423607 | R3P
46.2 Italian_Lombardy
31.4 Greek_Macedonia
22.4 Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Target: Bulgaria_Dzhulyunitsa_IA:I5769.AG__BC_642__Cov_62. 24%
Distance: 2.8059% / 0.02805871 | R3P
35.8 Albanian
32.4 Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes
31.8 Sardinian

[djipon]

https://i.postimg.cc/mgrszjPf/Untitled-1-4.jpg (https://postimg.cc/w7nPnh50)

How did you make that map?

[Dušan]

Kriči which moved from present day NW Montenegro to Dalmatian hinterland in 16th century founded village Kričke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kričke,_Šibenik-Knin_County

It was mixed village until 1990s. In 1991. Orthodoxes/Serbs were about 2/3 and Catholics/Croatians aboout 1/3. Orthodoxes lived in upper and lower Kričke, and Catholics in middle Kričke. Village is known as center of Uniate movement in Dalmatia in 19th century. Orthodox priest Petar Krička converted to Greek-Catholicism in 1832. In the next 10-15 years some local Orthodox people from Kričke and surrounding villages also converted to Greek-Catholicism. Their peak was about 850 people in mid of 19th century. Later most of them returned to Orthodoxy, mostly until early 20th century and few family returned in 1930s. Small minority of Uniates become Roman Catholics.



Actually there are three villages Kričke.

Two of them in Slavonia, about 20 kilometers from each other.
Both pure Serbian villages.

https://i.imgur.com/tGnBt3p.png

https://i.imgur.com/0JPqEOr.png


https://i.imgur.com/vdpWQMr.png

[Dardanos]

139749
139750
139751

[Varda]

Actually there are three villages Kričke.

Two of them in Slavonia, about 20 kilometers from each other.
Both pure Serbian villages.

https://i.imgur.com/tGnBt3p.png

https://i.imgur.com/0JPqEOr.png

In Montenegro near Tivat (Bay of Kotor) exist locality Kričkovina.

Among Serbs exist surnames Krička, Kričkić, Kričak and Kričković.

From the public base of 'Serbian DNA project':
- Krička, Nikoljdan, Dalmacija, Bratiškovci/Skradin, J2>J-Y55375
- Kričković, Stevanjdan, Dalmacija, Maovice/Vrlika, I2>I-Y3120

^^
Krička is Krič genetically, carry profilied haplotype of Kriči. On the other hand Kričković don't belong to Kriči genetically, his connection with them is only linguistic.

[Varda]

139749
139750
139751

Could you post for ancient Bulgaria (Thracian) sample from the map which Dušan posted?

[hazmatnik]

How did you make that map?

http://www.heatmapper.ca/geocoordinate/

But first you have to pin all of your matches ancestral places in my google maps, export that in CSV format and then manually change CSV to be in this format (coordinates you see are just an example):

Longitude Latitude Value
18.3816407 43.8402114 1
15.8509498 43.9530637 1

Its a little bit complicated and painfully slow proccess.

Once you change that, you upload that CSV to the link i gave you, play with settings a little bit just to tune how map will visually look and generate map.

[Dardanos]

Could you post for ancient Bulgaria (Thracian) sample from the map which Dušan posted?

139773
I only have this.

In the one you posted, the author either purposely or by mistake left Albanians out of the closet population.

But you can run any Illyrian, Paeonian, or Moesian sample, and modern Albanians will always be closer to them than any Slavic population in the Balkans.
The ones from medieval and Ottoman times are even closer

[Dardanos]

139799

[Varda]

Hi, does paleo-balkan side in Albanians comes from east part of balkans? they are not Illyrians?

According to genetics and linguistic i would say Albanians originated from eastern or eventually central Balkans, not from western Balkans or present day Albania which were Illyrian zones.

[Varda]

Hi, does paleo-balkan side in Albanians comes from east part of balkans? they are not Illyrians?

https://imgur.com/RNSYEpG

[Sulioti]

According to genetics and linguistic i would say Albanians originated from eastern or eventually central Balkans, not from western Balkans or present day Albania which were Illyrian zones.

I can not talk about genetics because i am not informed but how linguistically Albanians originated from eastern or eventually central Balkans?

[Dardanos]

According to genetics and linguistic i would say Albanians originated from eastern or eventually central Balkans, not from western Balkans or present day Albania which were Illyrian zones.

Lol, did you really create a sock account just to ask and answer your own question?

[Varda]

Lol, did you really create a sock account just to ask and answer your own question?

Nope

[Dardanos]

Nope

Hahahaha dudeeee:picard1:

[Sulioti]

Lol, did you really create a sock account just to ask and answer your own question?

Dushan is the expert in these things. Probably he is discovering his female side.

[Dardanos]

Dushan is the expert in these things. Probably he is discovering his female side.

In the Poreklo forum(srb. forum about serbian Genalogy) thread about the origin of Albanians, there’s a guy called Barbarylion who, not long ago, posted the same calculator screenshot about Albanians that Varda used in his “answer” to the “Russian lady.”

Out of all the users there, he’s the most adamant about dying on the hill that Albanians are Thracians.

He reminds me of someone…

Others, meanwhile, have no issue exploring the idea that Albanians originated from Dardanians or Moesians

[Varda]

In the Poreklo forum(srb. forum about serbian Genalogy) thread about the origin of Albanians, there’s a guy called Barbarylion who, not long ago, posted the same calculator screenshot about Albanians that Varda used in his “answer” to the “Russian lady.”

Out of all the users there, he’s the most adamant about dying on the hill that Albanians are Thracians.

He reminds me of someone…

Others, meanwhile, have no issue exploring the idea that Albanians originated from Dardanians or Moesians

I see you follow Poreklo. xD
Barbarylion was present here few years ago under the nick HungryLion. Dušan, Barbarylion and me are 3 different persons. I left Poreklo in 2019. and never wrote after that anymore there.

[Nurzat]

In the Poreklo forum(srb. forum about serbian Genalogy) thread about the origin of Albanians, there’s a guy called Barbarylion who, not long ago, posted the same calculator screenshot about Albanians that Varda used in his “answer” to the “Russian lady.”

Out of all the users there, he’s the most adamant about dying on the hill that Albanians are Thracians.

He reminds me of someone…

Others, meanwhile, have no issue exploring the idea that Albanians originated from Dardanians or Moesians

recently this idea that Albanians are descended from Bessi got popular in some circles in Romania - there is an author (Dan Alexe) who wrote a successful book that treats a different topic but mentions it - I didn't follow the topic at all, as I'm more interested in the (East) Slavic link of my region, but just wanted to point that out. a history geek I know even got very fond of anything Albanian now considering the Albanians are Romanians' long-lost brothers and that Albanians stayed truer by keeping the "Thracian language" and he is also fascinated by the clan-stuff and the macho aspects of it (wearing a knife, conservative marriage practices, vendettas in revenge of relatives etc)

[Dardanos]

recently this idea that Albanians are descended from Bessi got popular in some circles in Romania - there is an author (Dan Alexe) who wrote a successful book that treats a different topic but mentions it - I didn't follow the topic at all, as I'm more interested in the (East) Slavic link of my region, but just wanted to point that out. a history geek I know even got very fond of anything Albanian now considering the Albanians are Romanians' long-lost brothers and that Albanians stayed truer by keeping the "Thracian language" and he is also fascinated by the clan-stuff and the macho aspects of it (wearing a knife, conservative marriage practices, vendettas in revenge of relatives etc)

Romanians also want to place Albanians as far east as possible, as they want to present themselves as Romans who survived north of the Danube. If Albanians move west, they are afraid their own origin might also shift west and south of the Danube.

Let me be clear, I also don't believe that Albanians descend from some Dalmatian Illyrian tribes, but rather from the contact zone between Illyria and Thrace, modern-day Serbia, Macedonia, and Kosovo.

Albanian DNA also mostly supports this, as it plots in between southern Illyrian tribes, Moesians, and Paeonians

It's not even worth debating anymore, as two very solid papers have been published in recent years that address the Albanian origins,one comprehensively and the other in a broader regional context:

Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1.full

A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867423011352

[Varda]

Interesting. German historian Gottfried Schramm speculated that the Albanians derived from Bessi tribe. They were pushed by Slavs and Bulgars during the 9th century westwards into today Albania. I'm kinda interest in them because of their slavic admixture. Does it come from Serbs? one Albanian from Reddit told me they have above 20% slavic on average. It is interesting.

I know for Bessi theory of Schramm. Bessi indeed avoided romanization (and helenization) living isolated in the mountains, but that process probably touched them. Albanian language is of paleo-Balkanic origin, but has significant number of Romance/Latin words. According to
linguistic logic Bessi are good candidates for proto-Albanians. Except that Albanians show significant genetic afinity towards Thracians (Bessi were Thracians tribe). Albanian language is lack of native vocabulary related with sea and coastal life, and it is well known Illyrians live on the East Adriatic coast and near coast. Albanians historically were mountain shepherds just like Bessi.
Albanologist Kaplan Resuli Burović think that Bulgarian tsar Simeon I brought Albanians from Thracian mountains to area Mat in modern central/northern Albania as auxiliary troops about 900 AD in one of his military campaigns.

I think Albanians got most of the Slavic admixture in present day Albania. In Thrace they were lack of that, or had very small Slavic input.

[Varda]

Very interesting.
I found this on Reddit

Target: Albanian_Gheg_(n=24)
Distance: 1.0906% / 0.01090571
43.8 Thracian
23.0 Slavic_Migration
18.2 Roman_Anatolia
14.0 Illyrian
1.0 Turkic

Target: Albanian_Tosk_(n=24)
Distance: 0.8760% / 0.00875959
35.6 Thracian
22.6 Roman_Anatolia
21.6 Slavic_Migration
17.4 Illyrian
2.8 Turkic

Could you post link?

[Sulioti]

.
....Albanologist Kaplan Resuli Burović....
Listen dude. This is ridiculous.

[Dardanos]

I know for Bessi theory of Schramm. Bessi indeed avoided romanization (and helenization) living isolated in the mountains, but that process probably touched them. Albanian language is of paleo-Balkanic origin, but has significant number of Romance/Latin words. According to
linguistic logic Bessi are good candidates for proto-Albanians. Except that Albanians show significant genetic afinity towards Thracians (Bessi were Thracians tribe). Albanian language is lack of native vocabulary related with sea and coastal life, and it is well known Illyrians live on the East Adriatic coast and near coast. Albanians historically were mountain shepherds just like Bessi.
Albanologist Kaplan Resuli Burović think that Bulgarian tsar Simeon I brought Albanians from Thracian mountains to area Mat in modern central/northern Albania as auxiliary troops about 900 AD in one of his military campaigns.

I think Albanians got most of the Slavic admixture in present day Albania. In Thrace they were lack of that, or had very small Slavic input.

But why cling to an idea pushed by people who weren’t even linguists, archaeologists, or geneticists? Schramm wasn’t specialized in Albanians, he barely even mentioned them. And Kaplan Burović? He’s not a historian, just a political prisoner who spent years in Enver Hoxha’s prisons, and he was a Bosniak of Ottoman refugee origin.

These are outdated ideas based on knowledge from the last century. Why don’t you post work from modern Albanologists? People who are actually studying Albanians today, using the latest research and data. Or does that not fit your agenda?

What about Joachim Matzinger, for example?

Can you name even one modern Albanologist who claims that Albanians are Bulgarian-Thracian migrants from the 9th century?

I remember when I first started reading about genetics, everyone thought I2-PH908 was Paleo-Balkan or Illyrian. But with time, more research, and archaeological findings, that idea doesn’t hold up anymore.

I could’ve understood your arguments in 2010, but after the Kënete and Bardhoc discoveries, your theory just doesn’t make sense anymore.

139905
139906
139907
139908

[Dušan]

27-28% Thracian on Ancestry report based on Davidski G25 coordinates.

https://i.imgur.com/Gui6XZF.png