Are French speakers from Quebec more French than French from France nowadays ?

[Scandal]

Ethnically and genetically speaking.

France received a lot of European immigrants, mostly from Italy and Iberia who mixed with the White Frenchmen. To an extent Frenchmen from France mixed with North and Subsaharan Africans too.

Quebec French probably mixed with the English and Irish somewhat, but I suspect less than French from France.

In France, it's not too hard to find a Frenchmen with Italian, Spanish, Portuguese or German surnames.

Quebecois have a very little amount of Native blood (like 1-2%) from what I heard but that is a very insignificant amount.

[Scandal]

French who settled in Canada were mostly from NW French regions: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/hacsei/parts_of_france_where_frenchcanadians_immigrated/
so they were far from Germans, Iberians, Italians.

[J. Ketch]

French who settled in Canada were mostly from NW French regions: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/hacsei/parts_of_france_where_frenchcanadians_immigrated/
so they were far from Germans, Iberians, Italians.
From the French Canadian gedmatch kits I found (about 50), their genetic average was similar to Parisians or the French average, so not especially Northwestern.

[NSXD60]

What gets me is they keep exaggerating the differences between "Québecoise" and Euro French despite the fact that their schools follow the teachings of Euro French to the letter there. The actual amount of dissimilarities are much greater in Cajun French which the Francophonies don't seem to have any interest in.

[Scandal]

What gets me is they keep exaggerating the differences between "Québecoise" and Euro French despite the fact that their schools follow the teachings of Euro French to the letter there. The actual amount of dissimilarities are much greater in Cajun French which the Francophonies don't seem to have any interest in.
Are you part Cajun? I noticed you're into Cajun / French topics.
People don't care about Louisiana French because it has very low amount of speakers.

[NSXD60]

Wholly, and you're half right, the other half live here, and that combo equals annihilation of the language, plus them replacing your mother with a stepmother from overseas means much less affection and the same outcome.

[Scandal]

From the French Canadian gedmatch kits I found (about 50), their genetic average was similar to Parisians or the French average, so not especially Northwestern.
I guess Frenchmen with Italian/Spanish ancestries were excluded from France average. Even though they're considered French socially (unlike French of African descent).

[Peterski]

French immigrants to Canada until year 1700 came from:

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/20406/origins-of-new-france-immigrants-according-to-father-a-godbout/10

Poitou-Charentes* - 31.9%
Aquitaine (old)* - 4.8%
Limousin* - 1.5%
Haute-Normandie - 10.9%
Basse-Normandie - 8.0%
Vendée Department - 8.4%
Pays de la Loire (rest) - 7.5%
Ile-de-France - 12.6%
Hauts de France - 3.6%
Centre-Val de Loire - 3.1%
Bourgogne - 1.9%
Occitanie - 1.9%
Auvergne - 1.7%
Bretagne - 1.2%
Grand Est - 1.0%

*Combined percentage for Nouvelle-Aquitaine is 38.2%.

Source: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/59282503.pdf

=====

If we divide France into 5 parts like this, they came from:

S-West - 38.6%
N-West - 36.0%
Center - 20.8%
N-East - 4.6%

https://i.imgur.com/gQQ8CQF.png

https://i.imgur.com/zOarhXq.png

In fact slightly more came from areas south of the Loire River than from North-West France.

Quote - "(...) Just over half of the immigrants came from south of the Loire River with easily the greatest concentration of them from around the port of La Rochelle in the old provinces of Aunis, Poitou and Saintonge. A good many came from the valley of the lower Seine between Paris and Le Havre, some others from central Normandy and Maine (now the departments of Calvados, Orne and Sarthe). The rest were scattered through west-central France. Very few came from Brittany or the Massif Central, even fewer from the far south, and none from east of the Rhône. (...)"

https://i.imgur.com/I5uGyOf.png

That's why French Canadians are close to Central French autosomally, as Creoda mentioned.

[Zeno]

I've heard that the French in Quebec, all 10 million of them approximately, are descendants of a few thousand French colonists. If that's true, that's the power of genetics at play.

[Peterski]

Based on Eurogenes K15 results Quebec is closest to "French" average:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/north-american-gedmatch-averages.39985/#post-603204 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/north-american-gedmatch-averages.39985/#post-603204)

https://i.imgur.com/utIixQE.png

[Scandal]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/north-american-gedmatch-averages.39985/#post-603204

https://i.imgur.com/utIixQE.png
I dont have an eupedia account so I cannot view that page.

Like I said in my previous post,
I could be wrong but I suspect French - Southern Euro mixes (of which there are many) were excluded from France average despite the fact that they're seen as Frenchmen socially (unlike French citizens of African origins).

[Peterski]

I dont have an eupedia account so I cannot view that page.

It is my thread about North American state/province averages in Eurogenes K15 calculator.

Based on Eurogenes K15 datasheet Quebec average (n=53) is closest to "French" average.

BTW I think that I started this thread also on The Apricity Forum but I can't find it now.

[Peterski]

From the French Canadian gedmatch kits I found (about 50)

I have 54 kits from Quebec alone. Maybe let's combine our North American kits to finish calculating these state/province averages? Did you also use Eurogenes K15 calculator to calculate state averages? Or did you use another calculator?

[Peterski]

Okay, I found that old thread, here it is:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?322211-North-American-regional-GEDmatch-averages-by-Tomenable

Maybe I will update my averages soon.

[Scandal]

In France, it's not too hard to find a Frenchmen with Italian, Spanish, Portuguese or German surnames..
I forgot to add that vast majority of these "foreign surnames" found among Frenchmen in France arrived after ancestors of Quebecois left France for Canada.

[Oliver109]

Despite all the immigration it's still easier to find lots of blonder people in Paris or Lille than in Lyon or Grenoble so there is certainly a divide in France that predates the immigration.

[ScandinavianCelt]

I've heard that the French in Quebec, all 10 million of them approximately, are descendants of a few thousand French colonists. If that's true, that's the power of genetics at play.

"Early censuses show a population of 3,215 in 1666 and 3,918 in 1667. By 1679, the population had risen to 9,400, and by 1685, it was 12,263. In the early 1700s, the population was around 15,000-16,000, and by 1754, it included 10,000 Acadians, 55,000 Canadiens, and 4,000 settlers in Louisiana, totaling 69,000. "


Basically in the past 250 years it went from roughly 60k French-Canadians to over 5,000,000 descendants throughout this region. My male bloodline arrived in 1636 to Quebec from Normandy, so my French side shows I am on my Dad's-Dad's side linked to 569 original early/first immigrants there, basically making me a cousin to anyone with French-Canadian ancestry. I think my lines go back to Marie Helene DesPortes over 11x, and she is said to have given birth to the first French child in New France.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_Desportes

[Benyzero]

As a france from fench more france than a french from france

[Zeno]

As a france from fench more france than a french from france

I had both an ischemic and haemorrhagic stroke at once trying to make sense of this phrase

[Zeno]

"Early censuses show a population of 3,215 in 1666 and 3,918 in 1667. By 1679, the population had risen to 9,400, and by 1685, it was 12,263. In the early 1700s, the population was around 15,000-16,000, and by 1754, it included 10,000 Acadians, 55,000 Canadiens, and 4,000 settlers in Louisiana, totaling 69,000. "


Basically in the past 250 years it went from roughly 60k French-Canadians to over 5,000,000 descendants throughout this region. My male bloodline arrived in 1636 to Quebec from Normandy, so my French side shows I am on my Dad's-Dad's side linked to 569 original early/first immigrants there, basically making me a cousin to anyone with French-Canadian ancestry. I think my lines go back to Marie Helene DesPortes over 11x, and she is said to have given birth to the first French child in New France.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_Desportes

The French in Québec are in total just 5 million?

I thought they were at least double that. Or the French in North America, that is, the US and Canada, are 10 million.

[Andullero]

The French in Québec are in total just 5 million?

I thought they were at least double that. Or the French in North America, that is, the US and Canada, are 10 million.

The population in French North America was always tiny in comparison to the Anglo presence in the 13 colonies. That's why they had that policy of allying with every kind of Amerindian tribe they could get their hands on, even though they only delayed the inevitable with it. Only the Dutch sent less people to the Americas in comparison. As that Yank politician Joe Scarborough likes to say, demographics are destiny.

[Zeno]

The population in French North America was always tiny in comparison to the Anglo presence in the 13 colonies. That's why they had that policy of allying with every kind of Amerindian tribe they could get their hands on, even though they only delayed the inevitable with it. Only the Dutch sent less people to the Americas in comparison. As that Yank politician Joe Scarborough likes to say, demographics are destiny.

Yeah, makes sense. But I think it's a bit absurd, given how Greeks in all of the US and Canada are approximately the same as the French, and we're much more recent than the French.

[ScandinavianCelt]

The French in Québec are in total just 5 million?

I thought they were at least double that. Or the French in North America, that is, the US and Canada, are 10 million.

I read the first 60k Frenchies are now roughly 5 million in this NE region, from Quebec to Boston.

There have prob been more waves of immigrants since the pre-1750's, skewing numbers.

[Flashball]

You can find many ethnic southwestern french with zero basque ancestors and spaniard and italian
You can find many ethnic central french with zero spaniard, italian, etc., ancestors
Northern French are not the only native french and many don't have english ancestors
My northern french father don't have any english ancestors according his genealogy.

[J. Ketch]

I have 54 kits from Quebec alone. Maybe let's combine our North American kits to finish calculating these state/province averages? Did you also use Eurogenes K15 calculator to calculate state averages? Or did you use another calculator?
I used k13 for all non-European 'new world' kits. But you can have all the kit numbers I found if I hadn't already sent them (I thought I had).

[Dolofonos]

French who settled in Canada were mostly from NW French regions: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/hacsei/parts_of_france_where_frenchcanadians_immigrated/
so they were far from Germans, Iberians, Italians.

I spent three-four years living with one. She claimed that her ancestors are from Brittany and Normandy. She is very Atlantid and can't pass in Germany or Italy for example. Can easily pass in Ireland as a brunette Celtic female though.

[~Elizabeth~]

I used to work as a cashier in Publix in an area that got a lot of French Canadian snowbirds. My Haitian co-workers said that the French Canadians French was "rustic". The Haitians spoke proper French, taught by French nuns.

I was also in the bakery department for a while.

The French Canadians bought lots of wine and cheese.

[Flashball]

I used to work as a cashier in Publix in an area that got a lot of French Canadian snowbirds. My Haitian co-workers said that the French Canadians French was "rustic". The Haitians spoke proper French, taught by French nuns.

I was also in the bakery department for a while.

The French Canadians bought lots of wine and cheese.

Les Haïtiens ne sont pas Français, de toute façon.

[Peterski]

I used k13 for all non-European 'new world' kits. But you can have all the kit numbers I found if I hadn't already sent them (I thought I had).

No you sent me some Old World kits but no New World kits yet. Okay please send me the kit numbers and I will update my K15 averages. I can also send you my New World kit numbers if you want to update your K13 averages.

[Timeless]

When you dive into the sea of cultural differences between French speakers from Quebec and France, you're not just exploring linguistic nuances, you're kickstarting a transformative journey of self-discovery. It's like a personal development boot camp, where you'll learn to navigate the rapids of cultural sensitivity, flex those empathy muscles, and broaden your perspective like a panoramic selfie. You'll not only become a more well-rounded global citizen, but also unlock hidden aspects of yourself, expand your ability to connect with others, and gain a newfound appreciation for the beautiful mosaic of human experience.

[~Elizabeth~]

Les Haïtiens ne sont pas Français, de toute façon.

They spoke to me in English. I don't understand the French language.

[Flashball]

No. Ethnic french don't have subsaharian, arab, spaniard and italian blood, because they are ETHNIC French.
If you are mixed, by definition you are not ETHNIC.

[J.S.]

I've heard that the French in Quebec, all 10 million of them approximately, are descendants of a few thousand French colonists. If that's true, that's the power of genetics at play.

It is correct. More than 90% of the French Canadian gene pool comes from about 8000 French colonistst settled 400 yeays ago in the Saint-Laurent area.

[ScandinavianCelt]

It is correct. More than 90% of the French Canadian gene pool comes from about 8000 French colonistst settled 400 yeays ago in the Saint-Laurent area.

60,000 settlers sent by the king of France is now 5,000,000 in the Quebec and NE-USA region.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Ethnically and genetically speaking.

France received a lot of European immigrants, mostly from Italy and Iberia who mixed with the White Frenchmen. To an extent Frenchmen from France mixed with North and Subsaharan Africans too.

Quebec French probably mixed with the English and Irish somewhat, but I suspect less than French from France.

In France, it's not too hard to find a Frenchmen with Italian, Spanish, Portuguese or German surnames.

Quebecois have a very little amount of Native blood (like 1-2%) from what I heard but that is a very insignificant amount.

In France there is also a very large number of people with polish surnames, a huge community of Armenian origin, the largest jewish population in Europe (over 500K), the second largest turkish diaspora after Germany, a huge Vietnamese (former Indochina) diaspora, large communities from the Balkans and I could go on. With the exception of a part of the italian, german and spanish surnames, which have an older origin, the vast majority of the foreign communities are a 20th and 21th century absorption.

All things considered, yes, it's very likely that the average Québécoises are more French than the average of the nowadays "French", however, evidently they are not more French than the pure or almost pure ethnic French, which are still a quite large number.

[Ruggery]

I used to work as a cashier in Publix in an area that got a lot of French Canadian snowbirds. My Haitian co-workers said that the French Canadians French was "rustic". The Haitians spoke proper French, taught by French nuns.

I was also in the bakery department for a while.

The French Canadians bought lots of wine and cheese.

How do they differ from French Americans?

[Ruggery]

In France there is also a very large number of people with polish surnames, a huge community of Armenian origin, the largest jewish population in Europe (over 500K), the second largest turkish diaspora after Germany, a huge Vietnamese (former Indochina) diaspora, large communities from the Balkans and I could go on. With the exception of a part of the italian, german and spanish surnames, which have an older origin, the vast majority of the foreign communities are a 20th and 21th century absorption.

All things considered, yes, it's very likely that the average Québécoises are more French than the average of the nowadays "French", however, evidently they are not more French than the pure or almost pure ethnic French, which are still a quite large number.

I also heard that outside of the UK, France has the largest community of people from the United Kingdom in Europe; I don't know how true that is.

[Oliver109]

I also heard that outside of the UK, France has the largest community of people from the United Kingdom in Europe; I don't know how true that is.

The Dordogne mainly

[NSXD60]

Meh, the Quebecois claim their French is distinct from Parisian French, but the only difference is the more frequent occurrence of the diphthong -eigne, in words that end in -ein -, -ain -, -in -. Otherwise, they've adopted lock stock and smoking barrel the French Academy curriculum into their schools and gutted much of their original dialect. They used to sound more like us Cajuns before the strict imposition of overseas French, e.g., the replacement of sus, "on", with sur . They're attempting the same damn thing with Cajuns, but I hope our dialect finally expires before completing such an artificial makeover.

[Ruggery]

The Dordogne mainly

I was looking at pictures of that area and it aesthetically resembles an English village.

[Rædwald]

"Early censuses show a population of 3,215 in 1666 and 3,918 in 1667. By 1679, the population had risen to 9,400, and by 1685, it was 12,263. In the early 1700s, the population was around 15,000-16,000, and by 1754, it included 10,000 Acadians, 55,000 Canadiens, and 4,000 settlers in Louisiana, totaling 69,000. "


Basically in the past 250 years it went from roughly 60k French-Canadians to over 5,000,000 descendants throughout this region. My male bloodline arrived in 1636 to Quebec from Normandy, so my French side shows I am on my Dad's-Dad's side linked to 569 original early/first immigrants there, basically making me a cousin to anyone with French-Canadian ancestry. I think my lines go back to Marie Helene DesPortes over 11x, and she is said to have given birth to the first French child in New France.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_Desportes

https://i.postimg.cc/zBr326mN/Screenshot-2026-01-30-153512.png

Hello distant cousin

[Oliver109]

I was looking at pictures of that area and it aesthetically resembles an English village.

There are similarities but I think that the countryside has slightly different aspects i.e straighter tree and field patterns and more forest, the part of France that looks most similar to England is undoubtedly western Normandy and a lot of Britanny, especially architecturally speaking.

[Ruggery]

There are similarities but I think that the countryside has slightly different aspects i.e straighter tree and field patterns and more forest, the part of France that looks most similar to England is undoubtedly western Normandy and a lot of Britanny, especially architecturally speaking.

England dont have forest?

[Sebastianus Rex]

I also heard that outside of the UK, France has the largest community of people from the United Kingdom in Europe; I don't know how true that is.

Well, You can ask the AI as I did.

Worldwide is Australia (1.3M) In Europe It's Spain by far (over 750K), in France there are around 200K brits.

[J.S.]

French speakers from Quebec as are ethnically French as French speakers from France, ie, they are geneogicalyl, ethnically or genetically French because they are of French descents not because they speak French. Once we keep that in mind, we should note that even if there are 67 million inhabitants in France, that doesn’t mean there are 67 million French.

[Flashball]

French speakers from Quebec as are ethnically French as French speakers from France, ie, they are geneogicalyl, ethnically or genetically French because they are of French descents not because they speak French. Once we keep that in mind, we should note that even if there are 67 million inhabitants in France, that doesn’t mean there are 67 million French.

Yes.

[Scandal]

No. Ethnic french don't have subsaharian, arab, spaniard and italian blood, because they are ETHNIC French.
If you are mixed, by definition you are not ETHNIC.
Buddy.
German, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Polish etc surnames are not rare at all among ethnic Frenchmen of modern France. You may claim those people are not "true French", but the reality is, unlike French of African descent, those Iberian or whatever admixed people are considered "socially French" by other White Frenchmen.

[uMkhonto we Sizwe]

Ethnically and genetically speaking.

France received a lot of European immigrants, mostly from Italy and Iberia who mixed with the White Frenchmen. To an extent Frenchmen from France mixed with North and Subsaharan Africans too.

Quebec French probably mixed with the English and Irish somewhat, but I suspect less than French from France.

In France, it's not too hard to find a Frenchmen with Italian, Spanish, Portuguese or German surnames.

Quebecois have a very little amount of Native blood (like 1-2%) from what I heard but that is a very insignificant amount.
French Canadians are heavily mixed dude, a lot of them don't even look French (due to British Isles admixture mostly), and also Native admixture ranges between regions and individuals, I know many French Canadians who look visibly Native admixtured.

Also you're exagerrating about how mixed modern French people are.

[J.S.]

French Canadians are heavily mixed dude, a lot of them don't even look French (due to British Isles admixture mostly), and also Native admixture ranges between regions and individuals, I know many French Canadians who look visibly Native admixtured.

Also you're exagerrating about how mixed modern French people are.
More than 90% of the FC gene pool comes from the 8000 first French settlers. Their indigenous component is small; around 1% on average.

[Flashball]

Buddy.
German, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Polish etc surnames are not rare at all among ethnic Frenchmen of modern France. You may claim those people are not "true French", but the reality is, unlike French of African descent, those Iberian or whatever admixed people are considered "socially French" by other White Frenchmen.

I believe you have a serious verbal comprehension problem.

If you are one-eighth Sub-Saharan and seven-eighths French, you are not as French as a person who is 128/128 French. This means that in France, millions of people of French origin have absolutely no ancestors outside of metropolitan France for over 400 years. Many French people are strictly 128/128, 256/256, etc. Do you understand better now?

You will ask me: "How do you define the boundary?" I don’t need to define a boundary: it is defined by the term 'French.' It is your problem if you put anything and everything into the 'French' category, my friend… If you have no definition linked to French ethnogenesis, if you have no genealogical criteria, if for you being born in France is enough to be "French"; then there is no point in debating.

For example, Dumas is not of entirely French origin; he is three-quarters French and one-quarter Sub-Saharan. He therefore has primarily French blood, but also one-quarter Sub-Saharan ancestry, which distinguishes him from a 'pure' Frenchman. His son is more French than he is because he is 7/8 French and 1/8 Sub-Saharan, but he is still less French than a 128/128 French guy. So yes, he is not entirely French. Many people are entirely French in France.

Furthermore, "having a German surname" does not mean "not being French" because being French is not about the linguistics. Alsatians are French and are part of the French genetic cloud. Many French surnames have a Germanic origin but have a French sound and not a Germanic one; some have strictly Germanic surnames like many Alsatians, but have a very low non-Gaulish Germanic contribution. Linguistics is not to be confused with the ethnogenesis of a people.

A Frenchman is necessarily free from any Spanish, Italian, or other influence.

Do you understand? No? Then stay in your anti-French ignorance.

[Ruggery]

I believe you have a serious verbal comprehension problem.

If you are one-eighth Sub-Saharan and seven-eighths French, you are not as French as a person who is 128/128 French. This means that in France, millions of people of French origin have absolutely no ancestors outside of metropolitan France for over 400 years. Many French people are strictly 128/128, 256/256, etc. Do you understand better now?

You will ask me: "How do you define the boundary?" I don’t need to define a boundary: it is defined by the term 'French.' It is your problem if you put anything and everything into the 'French' category, my friend… If you have no definition linked to French ethnogenesis, if you have no genealogical criteria, if for you being born in France is enough to be "French"; then there is no point in debating.

For example, Dumas is not of entirely French origin; he is three-quarters French and one-quarter Sub-Saharan. He therefore has primarily French blood, but also one-quarter Sub-Saharan ancestry, which distinguishes him from a 'pure' Frenchman. His son is more French than he is because he is 7/8 French and 1/8 Sub-Saharan, but he is still less French than a 128/128 French guy. So yes, he is not entirely French. Many people are entirely French in France.

Furthermore, "having a German surname" does not mean "not being French" because being French is not about the linguistics. Alsatians are French and are part of the French genetic cloud. Many French surnames have a Germanic origin but have a French sound and not a Germanic one; some have strictly Germanic surnames like many Alsatians, but have a very low non-Gaulish Germanic contribution. Linguistics is not to be confused with the ethnogenesis of a people.

A Frenchman is necessarily free from any Spanish, Italian, or other influence.

Do you understand? No? Then stay in your anti-French ignorance.

And what about French people with Basque and Catalan surnames?

[Not a Cop]

I believe you have a serious verbal comprehension problem.

If you are one-eighth Sub-Saharan and seven-eighths French, you are not as French as a person who is 128/128 French. This means that in France, millions of people of French origin have absolutely no ancestors outside of metropolitan France for over 400 years. Many French people are strictly 128/128, 256/256, etc. Do you understand better now?

You will ask me: "How do you define the boundary?" I don’t need to define a boundary: it is defined by the term 'French.' It is your problem if you put anything and everything into the 'French' category, my friend… If you have no definition linked to French ethnogenesis, if you have no genealogical criteria, if for you being born in France is enough to be "French"; then there is no point in debating.

For example, Dumas is not of entirely French origin; he is three-quarters French and one-quarter Sub-Saharan. He therefore has primarily French blood, but also one-quarter Sub-Saharan ancestry, which distinguishes him from a 'pure' Frenchman. His son is more French than he is because he is 7/8 French and 1/8 Sub-Saharan, but he is still less French than a 128/128 French guy. So yes, he is not entirely French. Many people are entirely French in France.

Furthermore, "having a German surname" does not mean "not being French" because being French is not about the linguistics. Alsatians are French and are part of the French genetic cloud. Many French surnames have a Germanic origin but have a French sound and not a Germanic one; some have strictly Germanic surnames like many Alsatians, but have a very low non-Gaulish Germanic contribution. Linguistics is not to be confused with the ethnogenesis of a people.

A Frenchman is necessarily free from any Spanish, Italian, or other influence.

Do you understand? No? Then stay in your anti-French ignorance.

Then what is the number of pure Frenchmen?

[J.S.]

And what about French people with Basque and Catalan surnames?

What is your point? Not only do they originate from French territory, but they are also an integral part of the French gene pool. Neither the Basques nor the Catalans of France form an isolate or a separate cluster from the rest of the population on a SNP's based PCA composed of 10,000 genealogically sorted samples across several generations, born within a radius of 50 to 100 km. The AMOVA shows that 99.866% of the total variance is within the departments, even more so than in the Finestructure clusters.

[Beowulf]

This is a thread on Autosomal DNA and there's no calculator to be found??!?! Heresy!! :mad: