Hutsul dad results

[Nurzat]

will post a couple of DNA results of my dad's, who's a Hutsul with his recent ancestry from Hutsul villages in the upper streams of rivers Suceava (Сучава), Moldova (Молдава), White Cheremosh (Білий Черемош), Storonets (Сторонець) - so in southeastern Hutsul Land (Гуцульщина).


Your Roots DNA - Recent:

POLAND/WESTERN UKRAINE/EASTERN SLOVAKIA/NORTHEAST HUNGARY 47.8%
Slovakia Presov 26.40%
Zemplin Rusyns 6.60%
Lviv Oblast 5.50%
Lodzkie 3.20%
Slovakia 2.20%
Mazowieckie 2.20%
North Great Plain 1.70%

EASTERN MOLDOVA 36.3%
Moldova Central 31.90%
Moldova Kishinev 4.40%

CENTRAL AND EASTERN UKRAINE 8.6%
Vinnytsia Oblast 5.10%
Donetsk Oblast 1.80%
Chernihiv Oblast 1.70%

SLOVENIA/CROATIA/BOSNIA 7.3%
Murska Sobota 2.30%
Herzegovina 2.20%
Novo Mesto 1.40%
Lika Senj 1.40%

[Nurzat]

Your Roots DNA - Standard:

POLAND 38.1%
Mazowieckie 34.60%
Lubuskie 3.30%
Lodzkie 0.20%

NORTHERN AND EASTERN UKRAINE AND NEARBY RUSSIA 20.8%
Chernihiv Oblast 20.40%
Luhansk Oblast 0.30%
Tver' 0.10%

NORTHEASTERN BULGARIA 16.70%
Dobrich Province 16.70%

ALBANIA AND WESTERN GREECE 12.7%
Kefalonia 5.80%
Epirus 5.10%
Korce County 1.80%

GERMANY 4.9%
Sachsen Anhalt 4.70%
Oberschwaben 0.20%

ANATOLIA GREEKS 2.4%
Cappadocia Greeks 2.40%

GREEK ISLANDS 2%
Fournoi Korseon 1.90%
Cyclades 0.10%

FARTHER RUSSIA 1.6%
Mordovia 1.60%

GEDROSIA 0.8%
Balochistan 0.80%

[Nurzat]

Genetic groups he gets on MyHeritage and 23andme:


MyHeritage:
Poland
Western Ukraine, Moldova and Northeastern Romania


23andme: (included only those marked 'Very Close')
Northeastern Carpathian Mountains
Dniester and Upper Tisza River Basins
Lower Suceava River Basin
Moldavian Plateau
Ialomița River Basin

[Nurzat]

Illustrative DNA - Hunter-Gatherer and Farmer report:

European Hunter-Gatherer 39.2%
Anatolian Neolithic Farmer 37.0%
Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer 19.6%
Zagros Neolithic Farmer 3.0%
East Siberian Hunter-Gatherer 1.0%
Yellow River Neolithic Farmer 0.2%


Illustrative DNA - Periodical Breakdown:

Bronze Age
Genetic fit: 3.969 (Close)
European Farmer (6300–2800 BC) 53.8%
Western Steppe (3300–2600 BC) 45.0%
Central Siberian (2400–2000 BC) 1.2%

Iron Age:
Genetic fit: 2.060 (Very close)
Balto-Slavic (900–350 BC) 46.0%
Thracian (1100–200 BC) 30.8%
Illyrian (750–200 BC) 10.6%
Germanic (AD 100–600) 4.2%
Gandhara Grave Culture (1300–800 BC) 4.2% (Swat river valley)
Xiongnu (150–1 BC) 3.0%
Paeonian (750–100 BC) 1.2%

Late Antiquity
Genetic fit: 1.590 (Very close)
Slavic (AD 540–1100) 54.0%
Roman Illyria (AD 100–600) 35.0%
Volga (AD 200–400) 8.4%
Hunnic (AD 300–450) 2.0%
Sarmatian (AD 50–450) 0.6%

Middle Ages
Genetic fit: 1.424 (Very close)
Slavic (AD 540–1270) 67.4%
Balkans (AD 500–1000) 28.2%
Turkic (AD 650–1200) 4.0%
Volga (AD 200–400) 0.4%

[Nurzat]

Illustrative DNA - Closest Populations (Modern):

1 Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 2.216
2 Moldovan 2.275
3 Hungarian 2.289

4 Slovenian 2.508
5 Croat 2.638
6 Slovakian 2.653
7 Bosniak 2.820
8 Ukrainian (Lviv) 2.896

9 Czech 3.035
10 Ukrainian (Poltava) 3.250
11 Serb (Bosnia) 3.264
12 Serb (Croatia) 3.360
13 Ukrainian (Kirovohrad) 3.491

14 Serb 3.553
15 Ukrainian (Sumy) 3.654
16 Ukrainian (Donetsk) 3.666
17 Russian (Belgorod) 3.730
18 Montenegrin 3.752
19 Austrian 3.763
20 Polish 3.804
21 Polish (Silesian) 3.837
22 Ukrainian (Dnipro) 3.875
23 German 3.892
24 Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) 3.910
25 Polish (Wielkopolskie) 3.944
26 Ukrainian (Chernihiv) 3.971
27 Russian (Oryol) 3.971
28 Romanian 3.981

29 Serb (Montenegro) 4.000
30 Ukrainian (Rivne) 4.004
31 Russian (Voronezh) 4.124
32 Russian (Kursk) 4.132
33 Russian (Ryazan) 4.206
34 North Macedonian 4.370

35 Russian (Smolensk) 4.521
36 Pomak (Bulgaria) 4.725
37 French (Grand Est) 4.731
38 Belarusian 4.783
39 Dutch 4.787
40 Swedish 4.821
41 Russian (Kaluga) 4.912
42 Russian (Tver) 4.968
43 Bulgarian 4.994

44 Polish (Kashubian) 5.012
45 Norwegian 5.012
46 Belgian 5.046
47 Danish 5.076
48 French (Normandy) 5.103
49 Mordvin (Moksha) 5.175
50 French (Hauts-de-France) 5.206

[Nurzat]

Illustrative DNA - Closest Populations (Ancient):

(included only distance below 5)

1 Post-Medieval Syrmia 2.755

2 Byzantine Slav (Nicaea) 3.088
3 Medieval South Slav (Doclea) 3.293

4 Izyaslav Ingvarevich (Rurik Dynasty) 3.647
5 Gleb Svyatoslavich (Rurik Dynasty) 3.703
6 Byzantine Slav (Tragurium) 3.939

7 Medieval South Slav (Bitola) 4.083
8 Visigoth (Iberia) 4.126
9 Rus (Sunghir) 4.181
10 Medieval Dane (Zealand) 4.451

11 West European Crusader (Sidon) 4.524
12 Rus (Suzdal) 4.536
13 Medieval Pole (Silesian) 4.580
14 Medieval South Slav (Ryahovets) 4.597
15 Alemanni 4.711
16 Baiuvarii 4.745
17 Gaul (Bohemia) 4.761
18 Frisii 4.764
19 Post-Medieval Swede (Kronan's Crew) 4.792
20 Medieval Carpathian Basin (Early Magyar Period) 4.808
21 North Rhine (Merovingian Period) 4.823
22 Longobard (Pannonia) 4.837
23 Medieval Pole (Polan) 4.841
24 Republic of Metz 4.907
25 Medieval Jamt (Frösön) 4.929
26 Medieval Schleswig 4.954
27 Hallstatt Culture 4.986
28 Unetice Culture 4.988

[Nurzat]

Illustrative DNA - PCA Plot:

plotting at the edge of the Ukrainian cluster, in the Carpathian Ukranians' area

https://i.imgur.com/v933Gct.png

[Nurzat]

Illustrative DNA - DIY ancestry composition:

quite different results based on what populations you choose.
the last two ones should be the most relevant, as it forces modelling with Carpathian Ukrainians.
also, I've got the same % as with "Albanian" when using "Greek (Thessaly)".
modelling with "Ukrainian (Lviv)" instead of "Zakarpattia" makes "Crimean Tatar" go up to 6.8%.


Genetic Fit: 1.709 (Good)
Slovakian 38.6%
Ukrainian (Chernihiv) 35.2%
Albanian 23.6%
Mongol (Mongolia) 2.6%
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) -
German -

Genetic Fit: 1.759 (Good)
Ukrainian (Chernihiv) 55.2%
Albanian 26.4%
German 10.0%
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 5.8%
Mongol (Mongolia) 2.6%

Genetic Fit: 1.821 (Good)
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 83.6%
Albanian 11.8%
German 2.8%
Mongol (Mongolia) 1.8%

Genetic Fit: 1.819 (Good)
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 81.8%
Albanian 10.4%
Crimean Tatar (Steppe) 4.6%
German 3.2%

[Nurzat]

Vahaduo - Global 25 Views - Europe 1 PCA:

dad plotting with Zakarpattia Ukrainians, me just outside it, in the area overlapping Moldovans

https://i.imgur.com/rTvVLoG.png

[Aspirin]

Slavo-Vlach mix like all these Carpathian Rusyn populations.

[Nurzat]

Slavo-Vlach mix like all these Carpathian Rusyn populations.

edit - wrote the initial reply in a hurry as I was on the go, so I came back to put a bit of structure to it


in the Hutsul region - highest altitude villages of the Northern Carpathians, where agriculture is minimal beyond potato cultivation - it's possible that a small number of Vlachs arrived during the late Middle Ages.

these individuals must have assimilated individually into the local Slavic-speaking population, rather than through large-scale mixing between the two populations.

in contrast, further west in lower-altitude areas, Vlach communities established their own villages, and a cultural memory of Wallachians persists as far as Moravia to this day. however, no such legacy exists in the Hutsul area, which has consistently been Ruthenian for as long as records exist.

some Romanian surnames do appear sporadically in Hutsul villages in the contact region with Romanian villages, though they are rare - in contrast, Ruthenian names are much more present in any random Romanian village in Bucovina and Moldova. this suggests that more recent mixing in the Hutsul area, such as from the pre-WW2 period, contributes only marginally to the Balkan-like genetic signals in the population, pointing to the Balkan DNA source being older than that.

(East) Slavs must have arrived in the area after the 5th century CE as part of their broader expansion from Kiev archaeological culture territory southwards. their presence was substantial enough to impose their Slavic language over any pre-existing populations, as reflected in the Hutsul dialect, which retains features closest to Proto-Slavic among modern Slavic dialects.

still, the question of earlier substrata remains. prior to the Slavic arrival, the region was home to Celtic and Dacian populations, especially well-documented in the upper Tisa river basin for Celts. it’s worth investigating whether traces of this heritage survive genetically.

interestingly, Hutsuls show a small but consistent level of Turko-Mongol ancestry, even slightly higher than that found in Csangos (Hungarians of western Moldova). this raises the possibility of a steppe-related group settling in the region - maybe during or before the Mongol invasion - and assimilating into the local Slavic population. this may be linked to the introduction of the Hutsul horse in the region, which is emblematic to the Hutsuls to this day.

in summary, the primary genetic and cultural layer in Hutsuls is clearly (East) Slavic / Ruthenian. a minor but notable Vlach element exists, while a Turko-Mongol origin is minimal yet visible. the extent to which older Celtic and Dacian lineages were absorbed by early Slavic settlers remains an open question, especially when distinguishing between more recent Balkan ancestry and deeper regional continuity (I mean, it's possible that part or most of the Balkan-like DNA in Hutsuls could be from that initial contact between Slavic settlers and Carpathian inhabitants, who knows, we'd need a real scientific paper to look at that).

[Dušan]

Your father is more Slavic shifted than you.
Did your mother get test too?

[Nurzat]

Slavo-Vlach mix like all these Carpathian Rusyn populations.

edit - wrote the initial reply in a hurry as I was on the go, so I came back to put a bit of structure to it

I'll mention Moldovans in addition to previous comment as I'm personally very interested in both Hutsuls and Moldovans, as my father is Hutsul and my mother is Moldovan and I grew up part of both communities and very close to my roots on both sides, which share some interesting overlaps.

Hutsuls are unmistakably Slavic, but Moldovans also seem to have a strong East Slavic foundation that has gradually blended with Vlach/Romanian influences over the past several centuries. historical sources, like Grigore Ureche in the 17th century, mention that Ruthenians made up a significant portion of the early Moldovan population (he literally says half of Moldovans were Ruthenian at the time of the creation of the country in the 14th century and that one third of Moldovans were Ruthenian in his time, around 1640). you can still trace this heritage today in the northern parts of Moldova, both sides of Prut - through place names, historical census records and surnames that point to a Ruthenian/Ukrainian/Russian past (for surnames that past is very recent, for example), even if that identity has since been culturally assimilated.

despite their different historical paths, both Hutsuls and Moldovans - especially in the northern regions (Suceava, Botoșani, Chernivtsi, northern Republic of Moldova) - end up showing a similar genetic mix: a blend of East Slavic and Balkan elements (with Hutsuls consistently clustering with Ukrainians while Moldovans only overlap neighbouring Ukrainian regions in the north and then gradually go towards southern Romanians as you go south, even though central Moldova is still Slavic enough, for example my Vaslui county grandma scores Baltic in the lower range of the southwestern Ukrainians on Eurogenes K13, around 35%).



Your father is more Slavic shifted than you
Did your mother get test too?

it's normal, he's fully Ukrainian (his results are just in the normal Carpathian Ukrainian range) while I am half Romanian, my mom is Moldovan from Vaslui county.

I tested my maternal grandma from her side and she has a similar Baltic score to my dad on Eurogenes K13 xD though for the rest her components are more Romanian/Balkan-oriented, as expected. her closest distance is to Serbs, I think I'll do a similar thread for her.

[Aspirin]

particularly to my region (Hutsuls live at the highest altitudes in the Northern Carpathians, in no-agriculture areas except potato cultivation) some Vlachs might have arrived late in the Middle Ages, in small numbers, and assimilated into local Slavic culture one by one, that adding up in time. in other lower altitude areas more to the West I know they had their own villages and such and the memory of Wallachians there is kept as far as Moravia, but not in the Hutsul area, which is compactly Ruthenian for as long as we have records.
but I do mention that in the Hutsul villages a couple of Romanian last names pop up here and there, but they're like 1 in 100 where found - I recently went though the church records in my area. so recent mix (pre-WW2, after which Hutsuls started to move to urban areas and across the country and mix) is not the reason for the amount of Balkan-like component or it's only very partial.

Slavs must have arrived in the aftermath of their expansion after 5th century CE.

however I am curious of the substratum they found here and if they keep anything of that, culturally and genetically. that substratum was Celtic and Dacian, pretty well documented archaeologically for the Celts in the upper Tisa river basin.

from the low but constant percentage of Turko-Mongol DNA in Hutsuls (on average surpassing such traces in Csangos) I'm also curious whether there was one such wave settling in the area, maybe around the Mongol invasion or earlier, coming with the ancestor of the Hutsul horse and assimilating into the local Slavic culture.


so Slavs must have been numerous enough to establish themselves with their archaic Slavic language on top of existing populations, that left no trace linguistically (Hutsul is the most archaic Slavic dialect of all modern ones and closest to proto-Slavic in most features compared to other dialects), Vlachs or a Vlach-like source seems to be the second component, clearly the minor one though in relation to the Slavic component, which is the major one, there are clear hints of a Turko-Mongol mix, which is very minor but constant, and the question over how can we know if Celtic and Thracian DNA was kept - if Dacian DNA was also partly Balkan, then one should further divide between actual recent Vlach mix and older Dacian DNA that Hutsuls' Slavic ancestors might have taken in when arriving in the mountains over Dacians (if that happened).

Lol, "some Vlachs", the region was heavily penetrated by them as far as today Czech Republic, is visible in toponimy, is visible in hydronymy, is visible in culture, is visible in genetics. And get lost with this Dacian fairytales, is ridiculous how you deny Dacian origins of Romanians, and use them at the same time to explain the high paleo-Balkan genetic influence of Hutsuls. Is even funny how you marked Romanian as how far genetically is to you father, but at the same time you didn't find weird what he is closer to them than to most Russians or even some Ukrainian populations, which makes him absolutely outlier for East Slavic standards. Same with fairytales about some mythical "native" Slavic population, before Moldova this territory was inhabited and controlled exclusively by Steppe turkic nomads for hundreds of years.

[Nurzat]

Lol, "some Vlachs", the region was heavily penetrated by them as far as today Czech Republic, is visible in toponimy, is visible in hydronymy, is visible in culture, is visible in genetics. And get lost with this Dacian fairytales, is ridiculous how you deny Dacian origins of Romanians, and use them at the same time to explain the high paleo-Balkan genetic influence of Hutsuls. Is even funny how you marked Romanian as how far genetically is to you father, but at the same time you didn't find weird what he is closer to them than to most Russians or even some Ukrainian populations, which makes him absolutely outlier for East Slavic standards. Same with fairytales about some mythical "native" Slavic population, before Moldova this territory was inhabited and controlled exclusively by Steppe turkic nomads for hundreds of years.

Aspirin taking an opportunity to take revenge on me for my views on Moldova (myself being a Moldovan as well, in addition to being Hutsul - and don't call people of mixed ancestry "half", you cannot be half something culturally, you're either it, or not; some people of mixed ancestry take over the cultural heritage from both sides, most take it only from one side, so in my opinion they cannot claim the other side; luckily I can claim both).

what Aspirin hates is that I said that for half a millennium everything relevant to the Moldovan state happened exclusively West of River Prut, in what is now Moldova region of Romania, and not in what we now call Republic of Moldova (a post-Soviet country). I said I'd prefer and it would be more fair that they would at least call themselves Eastern Moldovans or Bessarabians, because using simply "Moldova" makes them THE Moldovans for anyone not knowing the specifics (everyone, thus), and sounds like usurping our history (the history of Moldovans from the actual Moldova, west of river Prut).

so, about my father’s genetics: he clusters at the edge of the Carpathian Ukrainian genetic spectrum, which is still part of the broader Ukrainian cluster. by your logic above, Western Ukrainians wouldn’t be Ukrainian either xD and they are the core Ukrainians, the ones that built the nation, intellectually. so clustering with them, if anything, makes him even more Ukrainian than clustering with Eastern Ukrainians.

then, claiming that Hutsuls are "Vlachs" is completely unfounded. if they were, how do you explain that Hutsuls speak the most archaic East Slavic dialect in terms of both phonetics and vocabulary? did the Vlachs teach Hutsuls proto-Slavic? xD their language shows no Vlach influence in phonetics and grammar and the Vlach influence is limited to a few loanwords related to pastoralism - mostly sheep terminology that isn't even widely used among Hutsuls, who tend more toward cattle herding because of the local landscape - less pasture, more forests, in higher altitude villages than other Carpathian populations inhabit. so, yes, Vlachs brought sheep words because they came as shepherds and individually assimilated into Hutsuls here and there across the region, but there was no large-scale mix at one particular time, otherwise we would have seen it in the language, it would have been some sort of convergence, which is not found. and again, I am speaking strictly of the Hutsuls, I don't know how it was for other Carpathian populations - go seek Vlachs where there is a cultural memory of their heritage to this day, in lower altitude villages from Maramures to Transcarpathia to Moravia, that's something else, different Carpathian populations had different populational history.

[Nurzat]

he is closer to them than to most Russians or even some Ukrainian populations, which makes him absolutely outlier for East Slavic standards.

Illustrative DNA - Closest Populations (Modern):

keeping only East and West Slavic pops plus Romanians, to compare to your claim

Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 2.216
Slovakian 2.653
Ukrainian (Lviv) 2.896
Czech 3.035
Ukrainian (Poltava) 3.250
Ukrainian (Kirovohrad) 3.491
Ukrainian (Sumy) 3.654
Ukrainian (Donetsk) 3.666
Russian (Belgorod) 3.730
Polish 3.804
Polish (Silesian) 3.837
Ukrainian (Dnipro) 3.875
Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) 3.910
Polish (Wielkopolskie) 3.944
Ukrainian (Chernihiv) 3.971
Russian (Oryol) 3.971
Romanian 3.981
Ukrainian (Rivne) 4.004
Russian (Voronezh) 4.124
Russian (Kursk) 4.132
Russian (Ryazan) 4.206
Russian (Smolensk) 4.521
Belarusian 4.783
Russian (Kaluga) 4.912
Russian (Tver) 4.968
Polish (Kashubian) 5.012


this list doesn’t support the claim that my dad is an outlier among Ukrainians. he may be more distant from Russians, which is expected and entirely normal.

as for Western vs. Eastern Ukrainian genetics - that’s a separate discussion. but if anything, Western Ukrainians are historically more representative of Ukrainian identity. Western Ukraine has been the core region for Ukrainian nation-building, Lviv was a much more central point for that than Kyiv during 19th-early 20th centuries, and my dad fits squarely into that context - genetically, ancestrally and culturally. he’s a native Ukrainian speaker from a purely Ukrainian-speaking, unmixed Hutsul community, in a region compactly inhabited by Hutsuls (no mixed communities, other than the handful of Romanians that move to these villages with official jobs every now and then and stay and get themselves assimilated into the local community, most often marrying locals, not the other way around).

secondly, addressing the fact that he is close to Moldovans in addition to Western Ukrainians and Slovaks: Moldovans appear close to Western Ukrainians and other East-Central Europeans because they themselves have a significant East Slavic component, that's what moves them away from Romanians and the Balkans, and puts Moldovans on that cline between Eastern Balkans and Ukranians, bulking closer to Western Ukrainians - not because those other groups (like Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Hungarians or Hutsuls) have Vlach roots. you can’t label everything with high Neolithic or Balkan-related signals as "Vlach" or at least cannot label "Hutsuls" as such while ignoring that others have a similar mix and cannot fit the "Vlach" mixing scenario.

the shared Neolithic genes across southcentral/eastcentral/south of eastern Europe can be (also) of a different (older) source in Ukrainians, not recent Vlach mix, at least not to that extent. any spike in Neolithic-rich DNA is deemed "Vlach", but I think each situation requires deeper analysis

[Nurzat]

and to put a face to the results - young (mid 30s) and old (early 70s) dad:

(his young photo is from his welder's work/specialization certificate/permit - they were shooting badge photos so artistically back then xD)

https://i.imgur.com/D5khBJd.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/SjnGzvg.jpeg

[Vessna]

Illustrative DNA - Closest Populations (Modern):

1 Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 2.216
2 Moldovan 2.275
3 Hungarian 2.289

4 Slovenian 2.508
5 Croat 2.638
6 Slovakian 2.653
7 Bosniak 2.820
8 Ukrainian (Lviv) 2.896

9 Czech 3.035
10 Ukrainian (Poltava) 3.250
11 Serb (Bosnia) 3.264
12 Serb (Croatia) 3.360
13 Ukrainian (Kirovohrad) 3.491

14 Serb 3.553
15 Ukrainian (Sumy) 3.654
16 Ukrainian (Donetsk) 3.666
17 Russian (Belgorod) 3.730
18 Montenegrin 3.752
19 Austrian 3.763
20 Polish 3.804
21 Polish (Silesian) 3.837
22 Ukrainian (Dnipro) 3.875
23 German 3.892
24 Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) 3.910
25 Polish (Wielkopolskie) 3.944
26 Ukrainian (Chernihiv) 3.971
27 Russian (Oryol) 3.971
28 Romanian 3.981

29 Serb (Montenegro) 4.000
30 Ukrainian (Rivne) 4.004
31 Russian (Voronezh) 4.124
32 Russian (Kursk) 4.132
33 Russian (Ryazan) 4.206
34 North Macedonian 4.370

35 Russian (Smolensk) 4.521
36 Pomak (Bulgaria) 4.725
37 French (Grand Est) 4.731
38 Belarusian 4.783
39 Dutch 4.787
40 Swedish 4.821
41 Russian (Kaluga) 4.912
42 Russian (Tver) 4.968
43 Bulgarian 4.994

44 Polish (Kashubian) 5.012
45 Norwegian 5.012
46 Belgian 5.046
47 Danish 5.076
48 French (Normandy) 5.103
49 Mordvin (Moksha) 5.175
50 French (Hauts-de-France) 5.206

Closer to French than Belarusian

[Nurzat]

Closer to French than Belarusian

4.731 distance opposed to 4.783 distance doesn't make you absolutely closer to one than to another - with different sampling the distances would stay in the same range but could reverse, plus it's basically statistically the same distance. so one could say he's genetically as close to the average of the Belarusian cluster as he is to the average of French people at the border with Germany.

Grand Est is composed of Alsace and Lorraine, historically German(ic) regions. they are slightly more Central-Euro moved than the rest of France so they feature here at a high distance though.

distance of Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) average to Belarusian average is 3.383, for example, pretty high as well, but there's plenty of individuals in that group that are clustering farther to Belarus than my dad. so they're not Ukrainian?

or take Lviv Ukrainians: their distance to Hungarians is 2.273 while distance to Ukrainians in Dnipro is 2.476, to Kirovohrad is >2.7 and so on in terms of Eastern Ukraine, and even farther to Russians, does that make them Hungarian?

many Russians are closest to Finns.

anyway, Carpathian Ukrainians due to their minor but relevant higher Neolithic component compared to the rest of Ukrainians, are dragged towards Eastcentral Europe (like towards Slovaks, which themselves include a lot of assimilated Ruthenians as well), so it's normal that the distance towards Russians and more northern populations increases and whatever is around Central Europe decreases.

one thing that's missing is regional results for Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Ternopil, Khmelnytsky and Vinnytsia in Ukraine - from individual results of those areas that I've seen I know he'd be closest to them as well, so we'd have entire Western and Westcentral Ukraine closely matching opposed to Eastern and North Ukraine, an absolutely normal result for any person of full Western Ukrainian descent, especially from the southern edge of "West of river Zbrutsch" Ukraine

[Vessna]

saying 4.731 distance makes you absolutely closer than 4.783 distance is a bit ridiculous - with different sampling the distances would stay in the same range but could reverse, plus it's basically statistically the same distance. so one could say he's genetically as close to the average of the Belarusian cluster as he is to the average of French people at the border with Germany.

Grand Est is composed of Alsace and Lorraine, historically German(ic) regions. they are slightly more Central-Euro moved than the rest of France so they feature here at a high distance though.

distance of Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) average to Belarusian average is 3.383, for example, pretty high as well, but there's plenty of individuals in that group that are clustering farther to Belarus than my dad. so they're not Ukrainian?

or take Lviv Ukrainians: their distance to Hungarians is 2.273 while distance to Ukrainians in Dnipro is 2.476, to Kirovohrad is >2.7 and so on in terms of Eastern Ukraine, and even farther to Russians, does that make them Hungarian?

many Russians are closest to Finns.

anyway, Carpathian Ukrainians due to their minor but relevant higher Neolithic component compared to the rest of Ukrainians, are dragged towards Eastcentral Europe (like towards Slovaks, which themselves include a lot of assimilated Ruthenians as well), so it's normal that the distance towards Russians and more northern populations increases and whatever is around Central Europe decreases.

one thing that's missing is regional results for Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Ternopil, Khmelnytsky and Vinnytsia in Ukraine - from individual results of those areas that I've seen I know he'd be closest to them as well, so we'd have entire Western and Westcentral Ukraine closely matching opposed to Eastern and North Ukraine

My point is that there is a significant genetic distance.

[Opie]

Closer to French than Belarusian

Yeah but with a very small margin.

[Nurzat]

My point is that there is a significant genetic distance.

far from Belarusian average? yes, it's just the same as for other Ukrainians from south of Western Ukraine - Zakarpattia, Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil, Chernivtsi, even Hmelnitski and Vinnytsia.

for each regional average around half of the people in the cluster will be south of that average while about half will be north of that average.

in that he's no outlier - he's just at the edge of the Ukrainian cluster (an outlier is one who plots outside the cluster).

[Nurzat]

funnily people instead of sharing points of view just imply Hutsuls aren't Slavic "and that's that".

if your point is Hutsuls are not (East) Slavic genetically due to distance to Belarusians, then that point you have to extend to a lot of people in the Carpathian and Subcarpathian Ukraine (Transcarpathia, southern Galicia, Bucovina, southern Podolia), as Hutsuls cluster well within their range, with their higher Neolithic DNA included, so there's still plenty of East Slavic DNA in them.

and genes alone don't make you Ukrainian/Ruthenian either - is it more Ukrainian a surzhyk or Russian speaker in Ukraine that scores higher Belarusian-like mix than people in the Hutsul region in Romania who use exclusively their somewhat archaic Ruthenian/Ukrainian within their communities? I am not saying they compare or compete, as I am fond of the entire diversity of Slavic and "Russian" speeches, it's just to refute your argument, as genes alone don't make you it, and Hutsuls don't have only the language/culture, but enough East Slavic genes as well, in any mix it's still their major component, with all the non-Slavic DNA considered

[Nurzat]

back to sharing DNA results.

this is a run with absolutely all modern populations included, at Illustrative DNA:

(a lot of non-Eastern Euro, even non-Euro DNA, estimated in the mix for my dad)

Genetic Fit: 1.323 (Good)
East Europe 60.6%
---East Slavic 49.0%
---------Russian (Belgorod) 34.8%
---------Russian (Kursk) 9.8%
---------Ukrainian (Kirovohrad) 2.6%
---------Russian (Smolensk) 1.8%
---Baltic 11.6%
---------Lithuanian (South Zemaitija) 11.6%
Italian Peninsula and Sicily 19.2%
---North Italy 19.2%
---------Italian (Veneto) 19.2%
Central Europe 5.4%
---------Austrian 5.4%
East-Central Europe 4.8%
---West Slavic 4.8%
---------Czech 4.0%
---------Slovakian 0.8%
West Asia and the Caucasus 4.6%
---Iranian 4.6%
---------Zoroastrian (Tehran) 4.6%
Southwest Asia 3.6%
---Arabian Peninsula 3.6%
---------Yemeni (Mahra) 3.6%
East Asia 1.6%
---------Japanese 1.6%
Sub-Saharan African 0.2%
---------Khoisan 0.2%
---------Ju Hoansi (Namibia) 0.2%



my maternal grandma's (Romanian ethnic, Moldovan from central Moldova region in Romania) is much cleaner, for example:

Genetic Fit: 2.615 (Good)
Southeast Europe 58.0%
---Albania 43.2%
---------Albanian 43.2%
---Balkan Slav 14.8%
---------Serb (Croatia) 14.8%
East Europe 25.0%
---Baltic 25.0%
---------Latvian 25.0%
Northwest Europe 8.4%
---North France 8.4%
---------French (Normandy) 8.4%
West Asia and the Caucasus 7.6%
---Eastern Black Sea 7.6%
---------Greek (Trabzon) 7.6%
Southeast Asia 1.0%
---Thailand 1.0%
---------Mlabri (Thailand) 1.0%

[Nurzat]

so dad gets modelled fine as around 1/8 Ashkenazi when I specifically choose that component, which it prefers when modelling just with Ukrainian and Romanian.
he has no Ashkenazi on 23andme, which people say is very good to catch any Ashkenazi if you have it.

or could be just some Global25 modelling problems that I don't understand.

Genetic Fit: 1.841 (Good)
East Europe 89.4%
---East Slavic 89.4%
---------Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 89.4%
European Jew 10.6%
---------Ashkenazi Jew 10.6%
Southeast Europe -
---------Romanian -


look for example, just to compare, what crazy results my grandma gets even when using her ethnic group to model with. I specifically chose these components, seeing them scoring high in the previous run with all global components, so we probably need to choose our sources better and not all that is shown is valid:

Genetic Fit: 2.812 (Good)
Southeast Europe 65.4%
---Mainland Greece 53.2%
---------Greek (Thessaly) 53.2%
---Romania 12.2%
---------Romanian 12.2%
East Europe 24.2%
---Baltic 24.2%
---------Latvian 24.2%
Northwest Europe 10.4%
---North France 10.4%
---------French (Normandy) 10.4%

[Nurzat]

Illustrative DNA - Unsupervised Analysis


Ancient:

top model two-way (very good one, totally plausible geographically)

Genetic Fit: 3.946
Corded Ware Culture 62.01%
Cucuteni-Trypillia Culture 37.99%


top model three-way

Genetic Fit: 3.731
Corded Ware Culture 59.5%
Cucuteni-Trypillia Culture 38.3%
Lower Xiajiadian Culture (West Liao River) 2.2%



Modern:


2-way

Genetic Fit: 1.573
Ashkenazi Jew 25.14%
Ukrainian (Dnipro) 74.86%


3-way

Genetic Fit: 1.489
Polish 82.9%
Samaritan 14.9%
Xibo 2.2%

[Mountaineer]

I knew the second I saw this thread the OP would try to distance Romanians from Hutsuls and his father. Nurzat has the biggest Romanian self hate complex I've ever seen and it shows in his every post.

[Vessna]

funnily people instead of sharing points of view just imply Hutsuls aren't Slavic "and that's that".

if your point is Hutsuls are not (East) Slavic genetically due to distance to Belarusians, then that point you have to extend to a lot of people in the Carpathian and Subcarpathian Ukraine (Transcarpathia, southern Galicia, Bucovina, southern Podolia), as Hutsuls cluster well within their range, with their higher Neolithic DNA included, so there's still plenty of East Slavic DNA in them.

and genes alone don't make you Ukrainian/Ruthenian either - is it more Ukrainian a surzhyk or Russian speaker in Ukraine that scores higher Belarusian-like mix than people in the Hutsul region in Romania who use exclusively their somewhat archaic Ruthenian/Ukrainian within their communities? I am not saying they compare or compete, as I am fond of the entire diversity of Slavic and "Russian" speeches, it's just to refute your argument, as genes alone don't make you it, and Hutsuls don't have only the language/culture, but enough East Slavic genes as well, in any mix it's still their major component, with all the non-Slavic DNA considered

Hutsuls are genetically closer to the Balkan and West Slavic populations than to East Slavs. They seem more like Slavicized Romanians or Moldovans. I mean, just look at the distances.

[Geba]

interestingly, Hutsuls show a small but consistent level of Turko-Mongol ancestry, even slightly higher than that found in Csangos (Hungarians of western Moldova). this raises the possibility of a steppe-related group settling in the region - maybe during or before the Mongol invasion - and assimilating into the local Slavic population. this may be linked to the introduction of the Hutsul horse in the region, which is emblematic to the Hutsuls to this day.


As far as I remember, quite many Romanians get some eastern/Asian/Turko-Mongol DNA in small %. It means that it is not necessarily comes from Hutsuls.

Hunter-Gatherer and Farmer on Illustrative DNA shows some interesting results for your dad... By contrast, I don't get those small Asian % there, exactly as most Balto-Slavic people.

[Vessna]

As far as I remember, quite many Romanians get some eastern/Asian/Turko-Mongol DNA in small %. It means that it is not necessarily comes from Hutsuls.

Hunter-Gatherer and Farmer on Illustrative DNA shows some interesting results for your dad... By contrast, I don't get those small Asian % there, exactly as most Balto-Slavic people.

I thought you were Ukrainian :confused:

[Geba]

I thought you were Ukrainian :confused:

Yeah, Slava Ukraini!

[Scandal]

Yeah, Slava Ukraini!

a glitch in the matrix

[Scandal]

My mother is supposedly 100% Slovak from Hungary. Her ancestors lived in middle of Hungary since early 1700s... She will be tested one day.

[Nurzat]

As far as I remember, quite many Romanians get some eastern/Asian/Turko-Mongol DNA in small %. It means that it is not necessarily comes from Hutsuls.

Hunter-Gatherer and Farmer on Illustrative DNA shows some interesting results for your dad... By contrast, I don't get those small Asian % there, exactly as most Balto-Slavic people.

that's why I suspect Hutsuls specifically had that introgression of Turko-Mongol DNA, which shows consistently in them at higher rates than in Romanians or even Csango Hungarians, and it's also the Hutsul horse involved in the discussion, for which a steppe origin is known, so who got this horse distinct race up in the mountains and no Romanian or Ukrainian group has it but the Hutsuls.

otherwise - different regions have a different populational history, so it's naive to assume same populational path across such a vast geography over time. so that's no argument.



Hutsuls are genetically closer to the Balkan and West Slavic populations than to East Slavs. They seem more like Slavicized Romanians or Moldovans. I mean, just look at the distances.


so Lviv Ukrainians and Zakarpattia Ukrainians are Balkan and West Slavic? Hutsuls cluster with those and/or in their immediate vicinity xD the correct statement would have been that Hutsuls are very marginal to Ukrainians genetically although they're still in the range of Western Ukrainians. which are East Slavic, so if you want to remove Hutsuls from East Slavs you should remove other Ukrainian groups as well, as I wrote above, if you'd read and be able to understand a logical argumentation.

the most important feature that rejects your argument is Hutsuls speaking the most archaic form of Slavic - not Belarusians (who otherwise find it hard to even keep speaking their own language - are you a Russian-speaking Belarusian as well?). it is very unlikely that Vlachs taught Hutsuls proto-Slavic.

if the higher Neolithic DNA in Hutsuls is from Vlachs, then that DNA entered Hutsul genetic pool over a long period of time through small-scale moving of Vlachs into Slavic-speaking Northern Carpathians and assimilating into Hutsul population one by one. that, of course, over time, could have brought considerable Vlach DNA, but culturally that stands very differently than the "Slavicized Vlachs" you just throw in the discussion, implying a Vlach initial population somehow in those isolated mountains learning a more archaic Ruthenian than the lowlands Ruthenians speak, ridiculous. also a larger scale mix of larger populations would have left strong(er) signs of linguistic convergence, which absolutely lack from Romanian into Hutsul (bar the pastoral loanwords, which aren't anyway exclusive, but nothing phonetically - compare that to Balkan Slavic languages, which went through real population mixing and linguistic convergence).

so while you can point to the still minor but important Vlach-like DNA in Hutsuls, culturally (and linguistically in the first place) you have no ground to call them anything but a population with direct continuity from proto-Slavs in conditions of isolation that facilitated the preservation of all the proto-Slavic features their speech shows, that other Slavic speeches lost. if you wanna hear your ancestors, listen to Hutsuls, they speak closer to them than you or your Russified Belarusian bros.


-----------

hard to have a decent discussion when folks are operating at Facebook comment depth but still love throwing out strong takes like they’ve done the research :coffee:

[Geba]

My mother is supposedly 100% Slovak from Hungary. Her ancestors lived in middle of Hungary since early 1700s... She will be tested one day.

There will be hardly any difference between Hungarians and your mom.

[Scandal]

There will be hardly any difference between Hungarians and your mom.
Why?
I'm an outlier myself (I tested myself).
Slovaks and Hungarians are distuingishable genetically.

[Vessna]

that's why I suspect Hutsuls specifically had that introgression of Turko-Mongol DNA, which shows consistently in them at higher rates than in Romanians or even Csango Hungarians, and it's also the Hutsul horse involved in the discussion, for which a steppe origin is known, so who got this horse distinct race up in the mountains and no Romanian or Ukrainian group has it but the Hutsuls.

otherwise - different regions have a different populational history, so it's naive to assume same populational path across such a vast geography over time. so that's no argument.





so Lviv Ukrainians and Zakarpattia Ukrainians are Balkan and West Slavic? Hutsuls cluster with those and/or in their immediate vicinity xD the correct statement would have been that Hutsuls are very marginal to Ukrainians genetically although they're still in the range of Western Ukrainians. which are East Slavic, so if you want to remove Hutsuls from East Slavs you should remove other Ukrainian groups as well, as I wrote above, if you'd read and be able to understand a logical argumentation.

the most important feature that rejects your argument is Hutsuls speaking the most archaic form of Slavic - not Belarusians (who otherwise find it hard to even keep speaking their own language - are you a Russian-speaking Belarusian as well?). it is very unlikely that Vlachs taught Hutsuls proto-Slavic.

if the higher Neolithic DNA in Hutsuls is from Vlachs, then that DNA entered Hutsul genetic pool over a long period of time through small-scale moving of Vlachs into Slavic-speaking Northern Carpathians and assimilating into Hutsul population. that, of course, over time, could have brought considerable Vlach DNA, but culturally that stands very differently than the "Slavicized Vlachs" you just throw in the discussion, implying a Vlach initial population somehow in those isolated mountains learning a more archaic Ruthenian than the lowlands Ruthenians speak, ridiculous.

so while you can point to the still minor but important Vlach-like DNA in Hutsuls, culturally (and linguistically in the first place) you have no ground to call them anything but a population with direct continuity from proto-Slavs in conditions of isolation that facilitated the preservation of all the proto-Slavic features their speech shows, that other Slavic speeches lost. if you wanna hear your ancestors, listen to Hutsuls, they speak closer to them than you or your Russified Belarusian bros.

According to your father’s results, he's not even close to ancient Slavic samples. There’s no such thing as ‘proto-Slavs’ btw. What we have are proto-Balto-Slavs, who eventually split into Baltic and Slavic groups. Genetically, Hutsuls are far more distant from East Slavs. Language preservation is irrelevant in this case, it’s more about isolation than any deep genetic connection.

[Vessna]

Yeah, Slava Ukraini!

I am just genuinely confused since Ukrainians are not Balto-Slavic.

[Scandal]

I am just genuinely confused since Ukrainians are not Balto-Slavic.
How are they not Balto_Slavic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

[Geba]

I am just genuinely confused since Ukrainians are not Balto-Slavic.

I am just partially Ukrainian... I wish I was 100%. Would be easier, you know.

[Vessna]

How are they not Balto_Slavic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

Genetically, not linguistically :rolleyes:

[Vessna]

I am just partially Ukrainian... I wish I was 100%. Would be easier, you know.

What’s your closest population? I just remember you being mostly Slavic.

[Nurzat]

According to your father’s results, he's not even close to ancient Slavic samples. There’s no such thing as ‘proto-Slavs’ btw. What we have are proto-Balto-Slavs, who eventually split into Baltic and Slavic groups. Genetically, Hutsuls are far more distant from East Slavs. Language preservation is irrelevant in this case, it’s more about isolation than any deep genetic connection.

you're fixated on Belarusian DNA as some kind of gold standard - which is northern-shifted even compared to most Ukrainians. if we followed your logic, we’d have to start questioning the "Slavic-ness" of half of Western Ukraine too. so that's no argument.

you're leaning entirely on genetics, but identity - cultural, ethnic, historical - doesn’t work like that. reducing it to DNA percentages is reductive at best and starts sounding like something from a racial purity handbook at worst.

if you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd see I was pointing to broader markers of continuity - language features (scientifically documented in Hutsuls), traces of pagan pre-Christian traditions (specifically Slavic, that are documented in Hutsuls) and a way of life that stayed remarkably intact until quite recently in Hutsuls. these speak of a deep cultural thread that links Hutsuls to older Slavic layers in ways that modern Russians (including Belarusians and Ukrainians) have long since lost.

yes, Hutsul DNA has more Neolithic input, but the core is still within the East Slavic genetic zone. dismissing them because they’re not close enough to your pet reference group doesn’t just miss the point - it undermines your own argument about Slavic identity

[Scandal]

Genetically, not linguistically :rolleyes:
Which groups do you consider Balto-Slavic, genetically speaking?

[Geba]

What’s your closest population? I just remember you being mostly Slavic.

Ukrainian (Zakarpattia)... But I think it is false positive. My mother is southern Ukrainian, father Polish from Latvia. By average, it gets somehow like that.

[Scandal]

Ukrainian (Zakarpattia)... But I think it is false positive. My mother is southern Ukrainian, father Polish from Latvia. By average, it gets somehow like that.
My sister...

Distance to: univ
6.02807598 Ukrainian_Carpathians
6.20486906 Ukrainian_Moldova
6.47289734 Hungarian_North
6.73538418 Czech
6.96717303 Lemko_Poland
6.97090382 Slovak
6.97230952 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.26715900 Polish_Subcarpathia
7.70173357 Ukrainian_South
7.78440107 Croat_Central
7.89118496 Hungarian_Alföld_North
7.98301322 Croat_Northwest
8.16151334 Hungarian_Alföld_South
8.39338430 Slovene
8.41940022 Polish_South
8.50047646 Bosniak_Northeast
8.50541592 Hungarian_Slovakia_Central+East
8.74393504 Austrian_Carinthia
8.90265129 Sorb_Saxony_Kamenz
8.92538515 Bosniak_Central
8.99545997 Polish_Lesser_Poland
9.01558096 Polish_Silesia
9.04135499 Croat_Kvarner
9.24618840 Croat_Slavonia
9.29100102 Hungarian_Central+Budapest

[Vessna]

you're fixated on Belarusian DNA as some kind of gold standard - which is northern-shifted even compared to most Ukrainians. if we followed your logic, we’d have to start questioning the "Slavic-ness" of half of Western Ukraine too. so that's no argument.

you're leaning entirely on genetics, but identity - cultural, ethnic, historical - doesn’t work like that. reducing it to DNA percentages is reductive at best and starts sounding like something from a racial purity handbook at worst.

if you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd see I was pointing to broader markers of continuity - language features, traces of pagan pre-Christian traditions and a way of life that stayed remarkably intact until quite recently in Hutsuls. these speak of a deep cultural thread that links Hutsuls to older Slavic layers in ways that modern Russians (including Belarusians and Ukrainians) have long since lost.

yes, Hutsul DNA has more Neolithic input, but the core is still within the East Slavic genetic zone. dismissing them because they’re not close enough to your pet reference group doesn’t just miss the point - it undermines your own argument about Slavic identity.

I have been, actually. Western Ukrainians historically have been distancing themselves from the Russians, Belarusians, and Eastern Ukrainians. Genetics just proved that point. Some Western Ukrainian groups are far removed from the rest of the East Slavs and much closer, even culturally, to West Slavs and Romanians/Moldovan.

[Vessna]

Ukrainian (Zakarpattia)... But I think it is false positive. My mother is southern Ukrainian, father Polish from Latvia. By average, it gets somehow like that.

It sounds about right if you average the two.

[Mopi The Dire Wolf]

I have been, actually. Western Ukrainians historically have been distancing themselves from the Russians, Belarusians, and Eastern Ukrainians. Genetics just proved that point. Some Western Ukrainian groups are far removed from the rest of the East Slavs and much closer, even culturally, to West Slavs and Romanians/Moldovan.

The Polish girls in my work dislike Ukrainians & dislike the number of Ukrainians migrating to Poland getting benefits

Even the Western Slavs have reservations about this lot :rolleyes:

[Vessna]

Which groups do you consider Balto-Slavic, genetically speaking?

Eastern Slavic groups with significant Baltic input - Belarusians and adjacent Western Russian populations eg Kaluga, Smolensk etc.

[Geba]

My sister...


Forogj Világ!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiqwj6a2J4M

[Scandal]

Forogj Világ!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiqwj6a2J4M
My fave Ukrainian track (I don't know a lot though)

https://youtu.be/1N_iVnfY14E?si=YEWNlXNho3ewK6bQ

[Geba]

The Polish girls in my work dislike Ukrainians & dislike the number of Ukrainians migrating to Poland getting benefits

Even the Western Slavs have reservations about this lot :rolleyes:

I am not surprised. Poles don't like anyone including themselves.

[Mopi The Dire Wolf]

I am not surprised. Poles don't like anyone including themselves.

xD

The two Polish girls have recently started beef with eachother...so you may be right about that

[Nurzat]

Ukrainian (Zakarpattia)... But I think it is false positive. My mother is southern Ukrainian, father Polish from Latvia. By average, it gets somehow like that.

you cluster precisely like my dad, then, he has Zakarpattia and Lviv top and is within the Zakarpattia cluster, not even marginal.

so what's with you dismissing Hutsuls if you cluster with Hutsuls xD

btw by southern Ukrainian do you refer to Odessa, Nikolaev, Herson etc?

because ethnic Ukrainians were not historically indigenous to southern Ukraine in large numbers before the Russian Empire took the region from the Ottomans and Crimean Tatars in the late 18th century. but they were heavily resettled there after that and quickly became a major demographic group, while also being Russified in the process.



It sounds about right if you average the two.

so she clusters precisely like my dad. she's to be dismissed as (East) Slavic, right?

[Vessna]

I am not surprised. Poles don't like anyone including themselves.

My sister lives in Poland. She’s had zero issues with Poles as a Belarusian. She is well adjusted though and fluent in Polish.

[Vessna]

you cluster precisely like my dad, then, he has Zakarpattia and Lviv top and is within the Zakarpattia cluster, not even marginal.

so what's with you dismissing Hutsuls if you cluster with Hutsuls xD

btw by southern Ukrainian do you refer to Odessa, Nikolaev, Herson etc?

because ethnic Ukrainians were not historically indigenous to southern Ukraine in large numbers before the Russian Empire took the region from the Ottomans and Crimean Tatars in the late 18th century. but they were heavily resettled there after that and quickly became a major demographic group, while also being Russified in the process.




so she clusters precisely like my dad. she's to be dismissed as (East) Slavic, right?

Geba is half Polish.

[Nurzat]

I knew the second I saw this thread the OP would try to distance Romanians from Hutsuls and his father. Nurzat has the biggest Romanian self hate complex I've ever seen and it shows in his every post.

pointing out that Hutsuls retain archaic Slavic linguistic and cultural traits isn’t controversial - it’s well-documented. if that clashes with your preferred nationalist fantasy, that's your problem, rumun, you’re free to cling to your fake national myths. and I mentioned Vlach gene flow to Hutsuls a lot. what more should I say, you ludicrous troll? your attack is unfounded and I am going to report it.

I bet you're from the South - it's only southerners that claim 100% Romanianness of other territories, all other territories are invested into their own local history and ethnic diversity of their origins while you southerners have imperial dreams in which everything from Moravia to Thessaly and from Odessa to Albania is Romanian and assimilated Romanians/Vlachs xD

[Vessna]

I knew the second I saw this thread the OP would try to distance Romanians from Hutsuls and his father. Nurzat has the biggest Romanian self hate complex I've ever seen and it shows in his every post.

That makes sense now.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It's the first time I've heard of Hutsuls. You always learn something. Your father is from a really tiny, interesting ethnic group.

[Geba]

you cluster precisely like my dad, then, he has Zakarpattia and Lviv top and is within the Zakarpattia cluster, not even marginal.

so what's with you dismissing Hutsuls if you cluster with Hutsuls xD

btw by southern Ukrainian do you refer to Odessa, Nikolaev, Herson etc?

because ethnic Ukrainians were not historically indigenous to southern Ukraine in large numbers before the Russian Empire took the region from the Ottomans and Crimean Tatars in the late 18th century. but they were heavily resettled there after that and quickly became a major demographic group, while also being Russified in the process.



I am more northern and cluster closer to Belarusians and Poles than your dad though... but yes, I am in the grey zone which somehow corresponds to Ukrainians from Transcarpathia.

https://i.ibb.co/tPpWX1Dd/225814.png

Odesa and Mykolaiv oblasts were resettled a lot, I know, but I suppose that at least some of my ancestors lived there even during the Ottomans. Some surnames I have found could be Turkic, for example, Sarrazin. Or maybe it is Arabic, Tatar or something else, but in any case it is not Ivanov.

[Peterski]

I knew the second I saw this thread the OP would try to distance Romanians from Hutsuls

His father is not particularly close to Romanians. Based on my data his 6 top closest regions are:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_SK_Slovakia-Presov
0.9593738
Europe_HU_North-Great-Plain
0.9742674
Europe_SK_Zemplin-Rusyns
0.9873343
Europe_SK_Slovakia:Average
1.0001305
Europe_MD_Moldova-Central
1.0104252
Europe_UA_Lviv-Oblast
1.0119990
(...)

[Nurzat]

Geba is half Polish.

that’s beside the point - you still haven’t answered the actual question. since you’ve based your judgment of the Hutsuls entirely on DNA, then apply the same standard to her. she clusters genetically with Hutsuls and with my dad - both with Zakarpattia cluster (since we only have this and Lviv, no Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil etc).

if you're using a single metric - DNA - to make your judgments, then at the very least, be consistent about it. I doubt you actually misunderstand what I'm saying; it seems more like you're deliberately sidestepping the argument to troll.

your eagerness to dismiss the Hutsuls when faced with strong arguments seems to come from their perceived link to the Balkans in general. that kind of selective logic only exposes your own biases - not any flaw in the argument.

this kind of attitude isn’t just inconsistency - it’s a familiar pattern of cultural resentment. I've seen it before: a specific type of hostility, especially from Russians shaped by a post-Soviet identity crisis - people unrooted from tradition, raised in social and cultural dislocation, now grasping at Orthodoxy and nationalism because they've lost real ties to their past and they hope this will give them cultural unity. I don't comment this from a traditionalist standpoint, I am a Socialist and an Atheist myself, but that's my observation.

and then you have the Hutsuls - a group that preserved their language, customs, material culture and spiritual continuity through centuries/over a millennium of pressure and change. that continuity, that sense of rootedness, stands in stark contrast to the cultural vacuum left in much of modern Russia.

so it's no surprise that Hutsuls become a target for imperial Russkies. they represent something unshakable - a stone unmoved by the winds. their mere existence challenges the myth of Russian cultural dominance, because despite Russia’s size and historical reach, Hutsul culture, in its depth and authenticity, makes that vast empire feel oddly hollow by comparison.

that’s what you’re really reacting to - and it's not an argument, it’s a projection. so joke's on you, "Slavic" sister.

if anything, maybe you Belarusians would need some Balkan DNA in order to show some resistance to assimilation by whoever is your ruler in the moment - it was Poles, now it's Russians, Belarusians seem to just obey whoever is in charge

[Geba]

My sister lives in Poland. She’s had zero issues with Poles as a Belarusian. She is well adjusted though and fluent in Polish.

Sister, I know that Belarusians are people who adapt a lot. Not surprised that your sister speaks fluent Polish. So Poles probably don't even see her as foreigner.

P.S. Zhyve Belarus!

[Peterski]

My mother is southern Ukrainian, father Polish from Latvia.

Have you tested your father? I'm curious about his results.

[Geba]

so it's no surprise that Hutsuls become a target for imperial Russkies. they represent something unshakable - a stone unmoved by the winds. their mere existence challenges the myth of Russian cultural dominance, because despite Russia’s size and historical reach, Hutsul culture, in its depth and authenticity, makes that vast empire feel oddly hollow by comparison.


It is all true, and not only Hutsuls are a target of Russian imperialism...

[majevica]

so it's no surprise that Hutsuls become a target for imperial Russkies. they represent something unshakable - a stone unmoved by the winds. their mere existence challenges the myth of Russian cultural dominance, because despite Russia’s size and historical reach, Hutsul culture, in its depth and authenticity, makes that vast empire feel oddly hollow by comparison.

Honestly, I don‘t think Russians care much about some Carpathian mountain tribes

[Geba]

Have you tested your father? I'm curious about his results.

Not yet, hopefully one day...

[Geba]

Honestly, I don‘t think Russians care much about some Carpathian mountain tribes

Just imagine, how nice it would be to have Russian nuclear weapons in the Carpathians, all Europe down to Iberia would be controlled unlike now when they are placed in NE corner of Europe.

[Geba]

Hutsulia strong


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNIB7vvxH_Q

[Vessna]

that’s beside the point - you still haven’t answered the actual question. since you’ve based your judgment of the Hutsuls entirely on DNA, then apply the same standard to her. she clusters genetically with Hutsuls and with my dad - both with Zakarpattia cluster (since we only have this and Lviv, no Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil etc).

if you're using a single metric - DNA - to make your judgments, then at the very least, be consistent about it. I doubt you actually misunderstand what I'm saying; it seems more like you're deliberately sidestepping the argument to troll.

your eagerness to dismiss the Hutsuls when faced with strong arguments seems to come from their perceived link to the Balkans in general. that kind of selective logic only exposes your own biases - not any flaw in the argument.

this kind of attitude isn’t just inconsistency - it’s a familiar pattern of cultural resentment. I've seen it before: a specific type of hostility, especially from Russians shaped by a post-Soviet identity crisis - people unrooted from tradition, raised in social and cultural dislocation, now grasping at Orthodoxy and nationalism because they've lost real ties to their past and they hope this will give them cultural unity. I don't comment this from a traditionalist standpoint, I am a Socialist and an Atheist myself, but that's my observation.

and then you have the Hutsuls - a group that preserved their language, customs, material culture and spiritual continuity through centuries/over a millennium of pressure and change. that continuity, that sense of rootedness, stands in stark contrast to the cultural vacuum left in much of modern Russia.

so it's no surprise that Hutsuls become a target for imperial Russkies. they represent something unshakable - a stone unmoved by the winds. their mere existence challenges the myth of Russian cultural dominance, because despite Russia’s size and historical reach, Hutsul culture, in its depth and authenticity, makes that vast empire feel oddly hollow by comparison.

that’s what you’re really reacting to - and it's not an argument, it’s a projection. so joke's on you, "Slavic" sister

I did answer your question. Geba is a mix of West and East Slavic; her closest population result is just an average of two. She’s neither fully Eastern nor fully Western Slav. Not sure what your rant about Russia has to do with what we're discussing here. Hutsuls are a separate genetic group from the rest of East Slavs, whether you like it or not. We are different culturally and genetically. I don’t see it as a problem; it’s just a fact.

[Peterski]

Hutsuls and the 49th Hutsul Infantry Regiment in Polish Kołomyja (Kolomyya), 1938:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY9RHajGAx0

[Nurzat]

Honestly, I don‘t think Russians care much about some Carpathian mountain tribes

you're wrong - Hutsuls are quite well-known to many Russians, particularly over the past two decades, due to their prominent role in Ukrainian cultural and national revival movements. they're often showcased as distinctly Ukrainian - both in terms of their folklore and language - which can provoke a strong reaction from those who oppose Ukrainian cultural independence.

our dialect, traditional customs, and the way we're portrayed as a symbol of "authentic Ukrainianness" are contrasting with the narratives favoured by some Russians. while it’s unlikely that there’s any official state-level policy targeting Hutsuls specifically, among segments of the Russian public there's often a discomfort because of such overt expressions of Ukrainian identity in Hutsuls, especially as they deviate sharply from the Russian linguistic or cultural standard.

so while Hutsuls are a minor population in terms of numbers, they are of much political and cultural importance in Ukraine, they’re certainly not obscure or irrelevant in the broader cultural tensions between Ukraine and Russia at the moment.

[Nurzat]

Hutsuls are a separate genetic group from the rest of East Slavs, whether you like it or not. We are different culturally and genetically. I don’t see it as a problem; it’s just a fact.

pulling "facts" out of thin air doesn't help your case - I've already gone through the points with actual facts. either engage with that or move on.

it’s ironic that someone who doesn’t even speak their ancestral language due to Russification feels entitled to look down on an ethnic group that’s preserved its identity despite centuries of outside pressure. if anything, you should learn from the Hutsuls ;)

[dviz]

Honestly, I don‘t think Russians care much about some Carpathian mountain tribes

That's incorrect. Russian's pet theory is that the nationalism of Western Ukrainians is responsible for the war Russians themselves have started in Ukraine :lol:

Really, you don't need to listen to Russians for more than 5 minutes and they spout this shit.

nyxen here just parrots this propaganda: Hutsuls can't be anything other than Romanians/Balkanites, meaning gypsies - since they're too stoopid to see the greatness of Putin and the Russian empire.

[Aspirin]

Aspirin taking an opportunity to take revenge on me for my views on Moldova (myself being a Moldovan as well, in addition to being Hutsul - and don't call people of mixed ancestry "half", you cannot be half something culturally, you're either it, or not; some people of mixed ancestry take over the cultural heritage from both sides, most take it only from one side, so in my opinion they cannot claim the other side; luckily I can claim both).

what Aspirin hates is that I said that for half a millennium everything relevant to the Moldovan state happened exclusively West of River Prut, in what is now Moldova region of Romania, and not in what we now call Republic of Moldova (a post-Soviet country). I said I'd prefer and it would be more fair that they would at least call themselves Eastern Moldovans or Bessarabians, because using simply "Moldova" makes them THE Moldovans for anyone not knowing the specifics (everyone, thus), and sounds like usurping our history (the history of Moldovans from the actual Moldova, west of river Prut).

so, about my father’s genetics: he clusters at the edge of the Carpathian Ukrainian genetic spectrum, which is still part of the broader Ukrainian cluster. by your logic above, Western Ukrainians wouldn’t be Ukrainian either xD and they are the core Ukrainians, the ones that built the nation, intellectually. so clustering with them, if anything, makes him even more Ukrainian than clustering with Eastern Ukrainians.

then, claiming that Hutsuls are "Vlachs" is completely unfounded. if they were, how do you explain that Hutsuls speak the most archaic East Slavic dialect in terms of both phonetics and vocabulary? did the Vlachs teach Hutsuls proto-Slavic? xD their language shows no Vlach influence in phonetics and grammar and the Vlach influence is limited to a few loanwords related to pastoralism - mostly sheep terminology that isn't even widely used among Hutsuls, who tend more toward cattle herding because of the local landscape - less pasture, more forests, in higher altitude villages than other Carpathian populations inhabit. so, yes, Vlachs brought sheep words because they came as shepherds and individually assimilated into Hutsuls here and there across the region, but there was no large-scale mix at one particular time, otherwise we would have seen it in the language, it would have been some sort of convergence, which is not found. and again, I am speaking strictly of the Hutsuls, I don't know how it was for other Carpathian populations - go seek Vlachs where there is a cultural memory of their heritage to this day, in lower altitude villages from Maramures to Transcarpathia to Moravia, that's something else, different Carpathian populations had different populational history.

First I never claimed Hutsuls or other Rusyn Carpathian populations as being Vlachs/Romanians, but only being Vlach admixed, this admixture being old from late Middle Ages, wich makes them outliers compared to Ukrainians from lowlands. Second, the bullshit with super duper archaic language is absolutely irrelevant, Balkan Slavs barelly have any Vlach linguistic influence, but genetically they are southerners, especially Bulgarians and Macedonians. Hutsuls live in a region with plenty of Romanian toponimy, wich indicate what in the past here lived an Romanian population. Hutsul culture is very Balkan, and have plenty of Romanian influence, from folk costumes, to strong pastoralist culture, dishes and music, and genetics just proved all this.

Romanian/Vlach from Timoc/Eastern Serbia

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e7/a9/04/e7a904e034958d945ddfc06ae17bacac.jpg

Hutsul frum Ivano Frankivsk, Ukraine. Approx. 500km from Timoc.

https://destinations.ua/storage/crop/articles/slider_1106_max.jpg


Illustrative DNA - Closest Populations (Modern):

keeping only East and West Slavic pops plus Romanians, to compare to your claim

Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) 2.216
Slovakian 2.653
Ukrainian (Lviv) 2.896
Czech 3.035
Ukrainian (Poltava) 3.250
Ukrainian (Kirovohrad) 3.491
Ukrainian (Sumy) 3.654
Ukrainian (Donetsk) 3.666
Russian (Belgorod) 3.730
Polish 3.804
Polish (Silesian) 3.837
Ukrainian (Dnipro) 3.875
Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) 3.910
Polish (Wielkopolskie) 3.944
Ukrainian (Chernihiv) 3.971
Russian (Oryol) 3.971
Romanian 3.981
Ukrainian (Rivne) 4.004
Russian (Voronezh) 4.124
Russian (Kursk) 4.132
Russian (Ryazan) 4.206
Russian (Smolensk) 4.521
Belarusian 4.783
Russian (Kaluga) 4.912
Russian (Tver) 4.968
Polish (Kashubian) 5.012


this list doesn’t support the claim that my dad is an outlier among Ukrainians. he may be more distant from Russians, which is expected and entirely normal.

This list literally shows you dad being a totally outlier. And not just your dad, but Ukrainian Zakarpattia and Ukrainian Lviv averages too compared to the rest of Ukrainian averages. The funny thing is that Ukrainian Rivne is Western Ukraine too, being more distant genetically than Romanians and closer geographically.

And Moldovans are not East-Central European populaton genetically, but are pretty much Balkan, including northern ones.

[Vessna]

That's incorrect. Russian's pet theory is that the nationalism of Western Ukrainians is responsible for the war Russians themselves have started in Ukraine :lol:

Really, you don't need to listen to Russians for more than 5 minutes and they spout this shit.

nyxen here just parrots this propaganda: Hutsuls can't be anything other than Romanians/Balkanites, meaning gypsies - since they're too stoopid to see the greatness of Putin and the Russian empire.

What propaganda? Lol
I am not pro-Putin and have never been. I don’t consume any Russian media outside of liberal like TV Rain. I am stating my personal opinion based on experience with West Ukrainians. It has nothing to do with war in Ukraine.

[Peterski]

Central Moldovans are indeed a Balkan-like population, they are close to South Slavs, especially to Serbs.

Nurzat's dad seems to be about halfway between Slovaks and Moldovans. And also close to SW Ukrainians.

[Vessna]

Central Moldovans are indeed a Balkan-like population, they are close to South Slavs, especially to Serbs.

Nurzat's dad seems to be about halfway between Slovaks and Moldovans. And also close to SW Ukrainians.

Would you consider him genetically East Slavic?

[Peterski]

Would you consider him genetically East Slavic?

He is closer to West Slavic Slovaks than to most of East Slavs, except SW Ukrainians.

=====

Edit:

Ukrainians from Lviv are rather West Slavic than East Slavic genetically.

Here are several closest distances to Lviv Oblast when using my data:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_UA_Lviv-Oblast
0.0000000
Europe_SK_Zemplin-Rusyns
0.3105286
Europe_SK_Slovakia:Average
0.3587213
Europe_PL_Malopolskie
0.3650068
Europe_SK_Slovakia-Presov
0.3980729
Europe_UA_Zakarpattia-Oblast
0.4379760
Europe_PL_Podkarpackie
0.4386924
Europe_PL_Upper-Silesia
0.4779979
Europe_UA_Vinnytsia-Oblast
0.5421144
Europe_SK_Bratislava
0.5646441
(...)

Ukrainians from Lviv Oblast are close to Slovaks and to Southern Poles.

[Nurzat]

He is closer to West Slavic Slovaks than to most of East Slavs, except SW Ukrainians.

but that’s where Carpathian Ukrainians and Western Ukrainian (Galicia) are, right? he’s not some anomaly - he fits within the typical genetic profile of that region.
and anyway, their argument goes beyond individual DNA; they’re insisting that Hutsuls aren’t East Slavic at all. but that’s not something genetics can decide alone.

culturally, Russia isn’t the benchmark for East Slavic identity and Belarus isn't the benchmark for East Slavic and core Slavic genetic profile.

if anything, they're as moved away from the Slavic core as the Hutsuls are, only in another direction, as they mixed in the opposite direction, with Balts and Uralics.

you can’t judge the Slavicness of Hutsuls by comparing them to Slavicized Balts and Uralics because three Soviet members over here claim it. we need some Ukrainians in the thread xD

[Peterski]

but that’s where Carpathian Ukrainians and Western Ukrainian (Galicia) are, right? he’s not some anomaly - he fits within the typical genetic profile of that region.

Yes, he plots exactly like he should in my opinion. I don't have other Hutsul samples to compare, but he is close to Carpathian and SW Ukrainians.


and anyway, their argument goes beyond individual DNA; they’re insisting that Hutsuls aren’t East Slavic at all. but that’s not something genetics can decide alone.

Yes I agree, being East Slavic is defined by culture rather than genetics. However in terms of genetics Lviv Ukrainians are closer to West Slavs.

[Nurzat]

Yes, he plots exactly like he should in my opinion. I don't have other Hutsul samples to compare, but he is close to Carpathian and SW Ukrainians.

Yes I agree, being East Slavic is defined by culture rather than genetics. However in terms of genetics Lviv Ukrainians are closer to West Slavs.

due to cultural reasons (common recent history as part of Austria and shared Carpathian cultural space) Hutsuls are more welcoming of Czechs, Slovaks and Poles in addition to other Western Ukrainians, than they are to Central and Eastern Ukrainian russophones. at least before 2022. and West Slavic ancestry (Czech and Polish, as you never hear Slovak mentioned) is held in high respect and some even exaggerate it to claim they're of some Polish origin, due to the local prestige of it.

just mentioning a cultural aspect, I myself don't share such ethnic-based bias.

[Peterski]

BTW it can also be mentioned that NE Poles are closer to Belarusians than they are to West Ukrainians.

I mean Masovians and Podlachians.

[Peterski]

Eastern Slavic groups with significant Baltic input - Belarusians and adjacent Western Russian populations eg Kaluga, Smolensk etc.

Poles from Podlachia also have high Baltic input, especially the ones from Sudovia (Suwalki region).

Edit:

Lots of Poles from Podlachia also have Polonized Belarusian ancestry.

[Vessna]

but that’s where Carpathian Ukrainians and Western Ukrainian (Galicia) are, right? he’s not some anomaly - he fits within the typical genetic profile of that region.
and anyway, their argument goes beyond individual DNA; they’re insisting that Hutsuls aren’t East Slavic at all. but that’s not something genetics can decide alone.

culturally, Russia isn’t the benchmark for East Slavic identity and Belarus isn't the benchmark for East Slavic and core Slavic genetic profile.

if anything, they're as moved away from the Slavic core as the Hutsuls are, only in another direction, as they mixed in the opposite direction, with Balts and Uralics.

you can’t judge the Slavicness of Hutsuls by comparing them to Slavicized Balts and Uralics because three Soviet members over here claim it. we need some Ukrainians in the thread xD

Kievan Rus is considered the core of East Slavic culture. It was not "Ukrainian," "Russian," or "Belarusian", those identities did not yet exist. It was a medieval federation of East Slavic, Baltic, and Finno-Ugric tribes ruled by Varangians. All three modern nations can claim it as shared heritage, but none can claim it exclusively.
Russia has historically been the dominant East Slavic power. Prior to the war with Ukraine, few people internationally were even aware of Ukraine, and it did not exist as an independent state until the 20th century. Politically and culturally, Russia has long been the core of East Slavic civilization whether you like it or not. Hutsuls are a small mountain tribe that speaks a Ukrainian dialect mixed with Romanian and Hungarian, and are far removed from the core, including Kievan Rus heritage.

[Vessna]

Yes, he plots exactly like he should in my opinion. I don't have other Hutsul samples to compare, but he is close to Carpathian and SW Ukrainians.



Yes I agree, being East Slavic is defined by culture rather than genetics. However in terms of genetics Lviv Ukrainians are closer to West Slavs.

Hutsuls and SW Ukrainians are not even East Slavic culturally.

[Nurzat]

Hutsuls and SW Ukrainians are not even East Slavic culturally.

to say Hutsuls and southwestern Ukrainians aren’t even East Slavic culturally - that’s just historically and sociologically illiterate.

Hutsuls have preserved an older way of life, closely tied to nature and forest and animal husbandry (horses and cattle), which reflects how early East Slavs once lived - communal, agrarian, spiritually rich. in contrast, urbanized East Slavs lost their distinct local traditions under centuries of centralization and Russification.

Hutsul speech, folklore, customs and lifestyle are undeniably East Slavic, just not in the narrow, state-standardized sense you seem to equate with being "Slavic". if anything, Hutsuls and other Western Ukrainians preserved elements of proto-Slavic culture more authentically - not through DNA purity myths (which are meaningless without culture), but by keeping intact the lived experience of ancestral traditions.

I’ve been part of this forum for 14+ years and my discourse on the matter was always that I believe in the cultural unity and richness of the Slavic world - East, West, and South - each with its own contributions. you’re the one creating hierarchies, dividing people into "more" or "less" Slavic, which reminds of Nazi racial ladder theories. I believe in keeping strong ties that are natural between Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians, at the same time respecting the particularities of each and the right to shape its own culture to each.

if you believe living in a khrushchyovka and absorbing imperial culture makes you closer to your ancestors than people living in more traditional communities speaking a more archaic version of your ancestors' language, that’s not heritage - it’s delusion

[Nurzat]

Kievan Rus is considered the core of East Slavic culture. It was not "Ukrainian," "Russian," or "Belarusian", those identities did not yet exist. It was a medieval federation of East Slavic, Baltic, and Finno-Ugric tribes ruled by Varangians. All three modern nations can claim it as shared heritage, but none can claim it exclusively.
Russia has historically been the dominant East Slavic power. Prior to the war with Ukraine, few people internationally were even aware of Ukraine, and it did not exist as an independent state until the 20th century. Politically and culturally, Russia has long been the core of East Slavic civilization whether you like it or not. Hutsuls are a small mountain tribe that speaks a Ukrainian dialect mixed with Romanian and Hungarian, and are far removed from the core, including Kievan Rus heritage.

some Carpathian highlander groups refer to themselves as Rusyns or Rusnaks to this day (Hutsuls call themselves "руснаки" in parallel with "гуцули") - terms that descend directly from the name used in Kievan Rus. Ruthenians in the Kingdoms of Poland, Hungary and later Austria preserved this ethnonym and identity far longer than in areas absorbed and linguistically flattened by Moscow’s standardization. Russians do have a historical link to Rus', but the modern Russian identity was strongly reshaped by Muscovy and the Tsardom in the 15th–16th centuries. it’s not a direct, uninterrupted continuation from Kyivan Rus' as in the SW Ukrainians which you deny East Slavic identity xD

the Kingdom of Halych-Volhynia in Western Ukraine was a direct successor state of Kievan Rus. its elites and clergy used Church Slavonic and considered themselves heirs of Rus’ traditions. when Kyiv fell into decline, it was Western Rus’, not Muscovy, that kept the flame alive until the Mongol invasions and later Polish-Lithuanian rule. many people from Rus’ fled invasions and settled in the Carpathians - so these mountains became a living reservoir of early East Slavic culture, not some fringe outpost.

Hutsuls may be a small group today, but cultural survival isn’t about numbers - it’s about continuity. while much of East Slavic life was standardized and Russified, Hutsuls preserved a deeply localized East Slavic culture with elements of older belief systems, folklore and oral tradition. yes, there’s Romanian and Hungarian influence - as you’d expect from a crossroads region - but the core language is an archaic East Slavic dialect, not a hybrid. and notably, despite linguistic uniqueness, Hutsuls identify as Ukrainian, not Romanian or Hungarian.

lastly, I never denied Russia’s dominant political or cultural role in East Slavic history. but dominance isn’t the same as authenticity or sole ownership. you don't get to decide who is East Slavic and who is not, against all that wealth of evidence. even people in my village still say they speak “рускій єзык” - but we understand this as a historical way of referring to our dialect, not to modern Russian.

so no, we are not "far removed" from the Kievan Rus heritage - in some ways, we’re among the few who have preserved it without imperial repackaging many centuries later

[Repent]

to say Hutsuls and southwestern Ukrainians aren’t even East Slavic culturally - that’s just historically and sociologically illiterate.

Hutsuls have preserved an older way of life, closely tied to nature and forest and animal husbandry (horses and cattle), which reflects how early East Slavs once lived - communal, agrarian, spiritually rich. in contrast, urbanized East Slavs lost their distinct local traditions under centuries of centralization and Russification.

Hutsul speech, folklore, customs and lifestyle are undeniably East Slavic, just not in the narrow, state-standardized sense you seem to equate with being "Slavic". if anything, Hutsuls and other Western Ukrainians preserved elements of proto-Slavic culture more authentically - not through DNA purity myths (which are meaningless without culture), but by keeping intact the lived experience of ancestral traditions.

I’ve been part of this forum for 14+ years and my discourse on the matter was always that I believe in the cultural unity and richness of the Slavic world - East, West, and South - each with its own contributions. you’re the one creating hierarchies, dividing people into "more" or "less" Slavic, which reminds of Nazi racial ladder theories.

if you believe living in a khrushchyovka and absorbing imperial culture makes you closer to your ancestors than people living in more traditional communities speaking a more archaic version of your ancestors' language, that’s not heritage - it’s delusion

Thumbs up for standing for equality.

[Vessna]

Thumbs up for standing for equality.

He’s flat out delusional with his statements. What equality are you talking about?

[Repent]

He’s flat out delusional with his statements. What equality are you talking about?

Look, I do not know who are right or wrong in terms of real facts, I do not have any studies in this field, I do have some small research in that field. I've respected that man's spirit in his claims.

Technically it looks like you both talking what do you know without providing any original outside sources, especially neutral if there is one, with the links to it. It is basically makes a private conversation for me within the public audience still as a person who does not know a lot about that topic much. I read just to try catch something unbiased for an educational reasons / to extend my knowledge.

[Vessna]

to say Hutsuls and southwestern Ukrainians aren’t even East Slavic culturally - that’s just historically and sociologically illiterate.

Hutsuls have preserved an older way of life, closely tied to nature and forest and animal husbandry (horses and cattle), which reflects how early East Slavs once lived - communal, agrarian, spiritually rich. in contrast, urbanized East Slavs lost their distinct local traditions under centuries of centralization and Russification.

Hutsul speech, folklore, customs and lifestyle are undeniably East Slavic, just not in the narrow, state-standardized sense you seem to equate with being "Slavic". if anything, Hutsuls and other Western Ukrainians preserved elements of proto-Slavic culture more authentically - not through DNA purity myths (which are meaningless without culture), but by keeping intact the lived experience of ancestral traditions.

I’ve been part of this forum for 14+ years and my discourse on the matter was always that I believe in the cultural unity and richness of the Slavic world - East, West, and South - each with its own contributions. you’re the one creating hierarchies, dividing people into "more" or "less" Slavic, which reminds of Nazi racial ladder theories. I believe in keeping strong ties that are natural between Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians, at the same time respecting the particularities of each and the right to shape its own culture to each.

if you believe living in a khrushchyovka and absorbing imperial culture makes you closer to your ancestors than people living in more traditional communities speaking a more archaic version of your ancestors' language, that’s not heritage - it’s delusion

I am not denying Hutsuls Slavic identity, but Hutsuls culture is not traditionally East Slavic. You’re the one who seems to be in denial about it:

“Ukrainian Hutsul culture bears a resemblance to neighboring cultures of western and southwestern Ukraine,[33][34] particularly Lemkos and Boykos. These groups also share similarities with other Slavic highlander peoples, such as the Gorals in Poland and Slovakia.[35] Similarities have also been noted with some Vlach cultures such as the Moravian Wallachians in the Czech Republic, as well as some cultures in Romania.[36] Most Hutsuls belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.”

Hutsuls

https://i.imgur.com/zYMt3bg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4Rneibk.jpg

Slovak Gorals
https://i.imgur.com/pGk2vT5.jpg

Romanians
https://i.imgur.com/1GbilDs.jpeg

[Nurzat]

...

people live in different landscapes that shape their activities and material culture.

is a French or German or Italian fisherman from the coast less or more French/German/Italian than one in the mountains?

they will have different dress, activities, adaptations and dialect, sometimes even a different mix of traits.

as far as I know language is the first most important component that links cultures.

otherwise a northeast Romanian village in Moldova region is entirely similar to a Russian or Kazakh one as we speak in this time and age but yet these are three different nations, while culturally we are all converging to the same globalized one, but still the language puts the most important link and divide, and on that regard Hutsuls are nothing but Ukrainian and being so they're automatically East Slavic.

about their material culture similarity to other various Carpathian groups no one ever denied that and these groups have sympathy for each other and a feel of connection beyond language, indeed. so a Goral village or a village of the Apuseni Moți will feel more like home to a Hutsul than a village in the Prypiat basin, that is true, but that's about the landscape similarity, while the language connection is still the defining one for ethnicity

[Wend-Kruzek]

Contribution.
But maybe it would be a good idea for those involved to do Y-DNA .They would know where their fathers roamed through the centuries;). Personally I think outside of strictly closed areas , we are very genetically mixed. Also the amount of samples per population is insufficient in some cases. So genetically only a rough guess.

[Wend-Kruzek]

My mother is supposedly 100% Slovak from Hungary. Her ancestors lived in middle of Hungary since early 1700s... She will be tested one day.

I assume you meant central Slovakia. It is true that in the mountainous areas , the population was more endogamous and everything depended on the Lord. But there is no such thing as 100% Slovak.:rolleyes:

And I agree that today's Hungarians and Slovaks can be genetically distinguished.

[Scandal]

I assume you meant central Slovakia. It is true that in the mountainous areas , the population was more endogamous and everything depended on the Lord. But there is no such thing as 100% Slovak.:rolleyes:

And I agree that today's Hungarians and Slovaks can be genetically distinguished.
No, her ancestors migrated to central Hungary in early 1700s from Nyitra, Nógrád and Hont counties (Slovakia inherited majority of Nógrád and Hont territories).
Her parents often spoke Slovak language at home, to each other.

Hungarian plain area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hungarian_Plain) received lots of Slovak settlers after it was depopulated due to Ottoman wars. Modern territory of Hungary (so small Hungary, not greater Hungary) was 5% Slovak speaking in 1700s, those Slovaks are all very assimilated today.

My own DNA test result is heavily Slovak / slavic shifted for a Hungarian. Slovenes/Czechs/Slovaks are genetically closer to me than average Hungarians.

[Dardanos]

I am not denying Hutsuls Slavic identity, but Hutsuls culture is not traditionally East Slavic. You’re the one who seems to be in denial about it:

“Ukrainian Hutsul culture bears a resemblance to neighboring cultures of western and southwestern Ukraine,[33][34] particularly Lemkos and Boykos. These groups also share similarities with other Slavic highlander peoples, such as the Gorals in Poland and Slovakia.[35] Similarities have also been noted with some Vlach cultures such as the Moravian Wallachians in the Czech Republic, as well as some cultures in Romania.[36] Most Hutsuls belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.”

Hutsuls

https://i.imgur.com/zYMt3bg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4Rneibk.jpg

Slovak Gorals
https://i.imgur.com/pGk2vT5.jpg

Romanians
https://i.imgur.com/1GbilDs.jpeg

GHEGH ALBANIANS
140205
140207
140208
140209
140210

GORALE (POLAND)
140211
140212
140213
140214
140215

[Dušan]

No, her ancestors migrated to central Hungary in early 1700s from Nyitra, Nógrád and Hont counties (Slovakia inherited majority of Nógrád and Hont territories).
Her parents often spoke Slovak language at home, to each other.

Hungarian plain area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hungarian_Plain) received lots of Slovak settlers after it was depopulated due to Ottoman wars. Modern territory of Hungary (so small Hungary, not greater Hungary) was 5% Slovak speaking in 1700s, those Slovaks are all very assimilated today.

My own DNA test result is heavily Slovak / slavic shifted for a Hungarian. Slovenes/Czechs/Slovaks are genetically closer to me than average Hungarians.

That is how we got our Slovaks in Vojvodina region, in northern Serbia.
But they are not assimilated, they are preserved as unique ethnicity to this day, and are very liked and respected.:)

https://i.imgur.com/fAVartM.png

[Nurzat]

...

btw, Pavel Pavel Nedvěd's grandparents were Czechs from Banat (Romanian side, in the mountains of županija Karaš-Severin). and Tomáš Ujfaluši has some ancestry from Romania Czechs as well if I remember correctly. there's Slovaks in Partium and Bukovina regions historically as well. totally assimilated in the meantime I think, except the cultural memory and religion, but I don't think they still speak the language except for those who remained in their rural area.

[Dušan]

btw, Pavel Pavel Nedvěd's grandparents were Czechs from Banat (Romanian side, in the mountains of županija Karaš-Severin). and Tomáš Ujfaluši has some ancestry from Romania Czechs as well if I remember correctly. there's Slovaks in Partium and Bukovina regions historically as well. totally assimilated in the meantime I think, except the cultural memory and religion, but I don't think they still speak the language except for those who remained in their rural area.

There is only one small settlement with Czech majority in our part of Banat region.
It is located near border with Romania, and has name Češko Selo (Czech village)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ce%C5%A1ko_Selo


As for your fellow Rusyns, they mostly live in settlements Ruski Krstur and Kucura in Bačka region. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruski_Krstur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kucura

[Scandal]

btw, Pavel Pavel Nedvěd's grandparents were Czechs from Banat (Romanian side, in the mountains of županija Karaš-Severin). and Tomáš Ujfaluši has some ancestry from Romania Czechs as well if I remember correctly. there's Slovaks in Partium and Bukovina regions historically as well. totally assimilated in the meantime I think, except the cultural memory and religion, but I don't think they still speak the language except for those who remained in their rural area.
Ujfalusi is a Hungarian surname.
I remember that player.
He probably has some Hungarian in him too.

[Peterski]

BTW here is how Nurzat's dad's results look on a map (I think they show very nicely the curve of the Carpathian Mountains):

This is Recent Mode:

https://i.imgur.com/jNex5OL.png

If you click the link in my signature you can buy the same Your Roots DNA test and receive Standard and Recent Mode reports.

[Wend-Kruzek]

No, her ancestors migrated to central Hungary in early 1700s from Nyitra, Nógrád and Hont counties (Slovakia inherited majority of Nógrád and Hont territories).
Her parents often spoke Slovak language at home, to each other.

Hungarian plain area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hungarian_Plain) received lots of Slovak settlers after it was depopulated due to Ottoman wars. Modern territory of Hungary (so small Hungary, not greater Hungary) was 5% Slovak speaking in 1700s, those Slovaks are all very assimilated today.

My own DNA test result is heavily Slovak / slavic shifted for a Hungarian. Slovenes/Czechs/Slovaks are genetically closer to me than average Hungarians.

Okay, I understand.;) For us Magyar and Hungary.
In that case congratulations you are Slovak. At least 1/2. I guess everyone hasn't been assimilated yet.
But the Slovaks are once so . "Jozko goes to Bohemia and after 3 months he is Pepa":rolleyes:.
My Grandpa was from Moravia and still spoke that dialect of his.

[Scandal]

Okay, I understand.;) For us Magyar and Hungary.
In that case congratulations you are Slovak. At least 1/2. I guess everyone hasn't been assimilated yet.
But the Slovaks are once so . "Jozko goes to Bohemia and after 3 months he is Pepa":rolleyes:.
My Grandpa was from Moravia and still spoke that dialect of his.
Myheritage is also able to detect my Slovak ancestry: https://i.imgur.com/L1YLMHd.png

When my mother travels to Slovakia, she's seen as Magyar from Slovakia, because her Slovak is much worse than her Hungarian and she speaks like how Hungarians in Slovakia speak (same accent).

[Nurzat]

G25 ancient scaled - distance, top 25, first to individual samples, then to population average:

Distance to: Nurzat_dad
0.02751720 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner:SZA-29.SG
0.02765084 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite:CSU-11.SG
0.02868573 Hungary_EarlyArpadian:VPB-600.SG
0.03104690 Serbia_Sirmium_Ottoman.SG:R3906.SG
0.03334602 Serbia_Sirmium_Ottoman.SG:R6737.SG
0.03342585 Montenegro_Doclea_Roman.SG:R9920.SG
0.03350528 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner:IBE-206.SG
0.03385726 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK274_noUDG.SG
0.03474751 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite:SE-64.SG
0.03478406 Russia_Viking.SG:VK254_noUDG.SG
0.03557015 Montenegro_IA:I13170_v54.1_addback
0.03632175 Ukraine_Viking_o.SG:VK542_noUDG.SG
0.03636610 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite:AGY-87.SG
0.03643296 Hungary_Avar_5:AV1
0.03644281 Hungary_LateAvar:OBT-56.SG
0.03676689 Croatia_Medieval_o:I15742
0.03716178 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK362_noUDG.SG
0.03734959 Croatia_MLBA:I18721
0.03744887 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner:SH-251.SG
0.03766415 Montenegro_Doclea_Roman.SG:R3478.SG
0.03787883 Hungary_LateAvar:OBT-3.SG
0.03834337 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner:IBE-154.SG
0.03852267 Serbia_Sirmium_Ottoman.SG:R9662.SG
0.03861066 Hungary_EarlyArpadian:IBE-106.SG
0.03912133 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner:SH-81.SG

Distance to: Nurzat_dad
0.02976602 Serbia_Sirmium_Ottoman.SG
0.03002018 Croatia_Mursa_Roman.SG
0.03094128 Montenegro_Doclea_Roman.SG
0.03552441 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o
0.03557015 Montenegro_IA
0.03632175 Ukraine_Viking_o.SG
0.03643296 Hungary_Avar_5
0.03676689 Croatia_Medieval_o
0.03721526 Serbia_Viminacium_Roman_elite_1.SG
0.03958702 Serbia_Beska_Severi_ValentianValen_possible.SG
0.04000483 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval
0.04055520 Turkey_Byzantine_oEuropean
0.04211361 Hungary_Transtisza_LSarmation_EHun
0.04239644 Ukraine_Scythian.SG
0.04333368 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
0.04414496 Macedonia_Medieval
0.04433570 Germany_EarlyMedieval_o3.SG
0.04546705 Hungary_DanubeTisza_LSarmation_EHun
0.04601181 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG
0.04737380 Slovakia_TesarkeMlynany_Germanic_MigrationPeriod.S G
0.04874454 Hungary_IA_Scythian.SG
0.04954434 Croatia_Popova_RomanP.SG
0.05002656 Ukraine_Chernyakhiv_o.SG
0.05042957 Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug
0.05044357 Croatia_MLBA_alt


Vahaduo mix:

Target: Nurzat_dad
Distance: 1.6588% / 0.01658765 | R3P
77.8 Hungary_Avar_5
11.8 Kyrgyzstan_Modern_Nomad.SG
10.4 Greece_Manika_Helladic_EBA.SG

Target: Nurzat_dad
Distance: 1.3307% / 0.01330667 | R4P
38.6 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG
34.4 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval
14.2 Serbia_LepenskiVir_EMN.SG
12.8 Kyrgyzstan_Modern_Nomad.SG

Target: Nurzat_dad
Distance: 1.2280% / 0.01227971 | R5P
37.2 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG
27.8 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval
12.0 Kyrgyzstan_Modern_Nomad.SG
12.0 Serbia_LepenskiVir_EMN.SG
11.0 Hungary_SouthTransdanubia_Eavar_2

[Feiichy]

Interesting thread. Congrats on dad's results Nurzat.

Slavs are diverse, and division of east west and south is purely linguistic and geographical.

[Nurzat]

Interesting thread. Congrats on dad's results Nurzat.

Slavs are diverse, and division of east west and south is purely linguistic and geographical.


thanks! you too, I saw the thread.

btw I think my dad might have 1/8 Jewish ancestry without knowing.
otherwise it's strange that if I have both Balkan and Jewish or South Italian populations in the source he gets the Slavic mixed with the "exotic" component instead of the Balkan one:


at Illustrative DNA, with DIY tool:


Target: Nurzat_dad
Genetic Fit: 1.839 (Good)
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) -- 70.0%
Polish -- 16.6%
Ashkenazi Jew -- 13.4%
Albanian -- 0%
Romanian -- 0%


Target: Nurzat_dad
Genetic Fit: 1.903 (Good)
Polish -- 46.0%
Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) -- 29.2%
Romanian -- 12.8%
Samaritan -- 12.0%
Albanian -- 0%


Target: Nurzat_dad
Genetic Fit: 1.814 (Good)
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) -- 48.2%
Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) -- 18.4%
Slovakian -- 19.0%
Ashkenazi Jew -- 14.4%
Albanian -- 0%
Polish -- 0%

Target: Nurzat_dad
Genetic Fit: 1.901 (Good)
Ukrainian (Zakarpattia) -- 80.4%
Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) -- 1.4%
Sicilian -- 10.2%
Slovakian -- 8.0%
Romanian -- 0%
Polish -- 0%
Albanian -- 0%

maybe it's even through the continuous paternal line (YDNA hg): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z467/. though we don't know the subclade.


while the Carpathian Ukrainian average modelled with similar components:

Target: Ukrainian (Zakarpattia)
Genetic Fit: 0.465 (Very Good)
Polish -- 52.0%
Ukrainian (Zhytomyr) -- 25.6%
Albanian -- 19.0%
Crimean Tatar (Steppe) -- 3.4%
Ashkenazi Jew -- 0%
Irish -- 0%
Danish -- 0%

[Repent]

thanks! you too, I saw the thread.

btw I think my dad might have 1/8 Jewish ancestry without knowing.
otherwise it's strange that if I have both Balkan and Jewish or South Italian populations in the source he gets the Slavic mixed with the "exotic" component instead of the Balkan one:


at Illustrative DNA, with DIY tool:


Can it be just Odessa / Odesskaya Oblast' ancestry in the mix or something as the reason why, or if it was it would be in the list for sure?

[Nurzat]

Can it be just Odessa / Odesskaya Oblast' ancestry in the mix or something as the reason why, or if it was it would be in the list for sure?

no, there were Jews for a short while in the village, suddenly, second half of 19th century - early 20th century, at the end of the Austrian empire (dad's village was part of it, at the crossroads of Bucovina and Galicia/Pokuttia, by traditional regions, or in southeast Hutsulshchyna if we refer to the ethnographic region). they came as merchants.

plus, Galicia/Bukovina and in general Ukraine and Western Ukraine/Southeast Poland in particular had a whole lot of Jews. I saw an estimation that today's Ukrainian territory had up to around 40% of all Jews in the world at some point.

however, I need to look at it more carefully, it's not 100% certain I think - though it's a bit strange, as there seems to be a clear East Med ancestry signal (even though weak, for at most 1/8 of my dad's DNA).