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Peterski

05-30-2025, 06:37 PM

The genetic portrait of the Piast Dynasty

This project aims to unravel the genetic portrait of the Piast Dynasty, the first historical ruling dynasty of Poland, which reigned from the 10th to the 14th century. By employing advanced genetic analysis techniques, including DNA sequencing of ancient remains, this study seeks to uncover the hereditary characteristics and ancestral origins of the Piast rulers. This research not only provides a deeper understanding of the genetic makeup of one of Europe's formative dynasties but also offers significant insights into the broader historical and migratory patterns in medieval Europe. The findings from this project are expected to enhance our comprehension of early European dynastic histories and contribute to the fields of genetics, archaeology, and medieval studies, thereby enriching our knowledge of cultural and biological heritage.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB78346

Secondary Study Accession: ERP162650
Study Title: The genetic portrait of the Piast Dynasty
Center Name: Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry Polish Academy of Sciences
Study Name: The Piast Dynasty
ENA-FIRST-PUBLIC: 2025-05-29
ENA-LAST-UPDATE: 2025-05-29

Peterski

05-30-2025, 06:46 PM

On Monday 2 June we will get to know what was the haplogroup of the Piast Dynasty:

https://pan-pl.translate.goog/zaproszenie-na-sympozjum-dynastia-i-spoleczenstwo-panstwa-piastow/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl

cass

06-03-2025, 04:09 PM

Are these really Piast samples?

Piast dynasty

Piast?:PCA0252B,0.125205,0.094444,0.075801,0.07396 7,0.040931,0.012829,-0.00047,0.013846,-0.008999,-0.027882,-0.000487,-0.01094,0.008771,0.022708,-0.002036,0.016839,0.017211,0.008108,0.00176,0.0043 77,0.01148,-0.000989,0.01405,-0.007109,0.010538
Piast?:PCA0660,0.121791,0.089367,0.047517,0.045866 ,0.028928,0.02259,0.00329,0.023307,-0.014726,-0.026971,-0.004547,-0.013638,0.014569,0.026148,-0.005972,-0.015248,-0.007823,-0.004561,0.001383,0.003001,0.006239,0.007172,0.014 79,-0.013134,0.013891
Piast?:PCA0648,0.097888,0.101553,0.063356,0.044574 ,0.032314,0.033746,0.00517,0.005077,0.007976,-0.010023,0.004547,0.00015,0.020664,0.020781,-0.010586,-0.016441,-0.030771,-0.00152,0.020112,0.002001,-0.01148,0.004204,-0.012448,-0.006025,-0.005748
Piast?:PCA0657,0.114961,0.110693,0.059208,0.019703 ,0.024928,0.019801,0.011986,0.013615,0.018612,-0.016037,-0.018675,-0.020382,-0.009514,0.018717,-0.02728,-0.005304,-0.001825,0.014696,-0.005782,0.008879,-0.009483,-0.000247,0.016022,-0.001566,0.01892
Piast?:PCA0573B,0.125205,0.142174,0.052797,0.03391 5,0.038161,0.019243,0.00047,-0.003,0.011249,-0.017859,-0.007795,0.004796,-0.004311,-0.005643,0.01045,0.019888,0.001825,-0.006841,0.003142,0.012631,0.007112,0.013602,0.007 395,0.010001,-0.002275

elite of the Piast dynasty

Polish:PCA0251,0.129758,0.128972,0.082589,0.063954 ,0.040315,0.024542,0.00094,0.006,-0.001227,-0.020593,0.002273,-0.009442,0.017245,0.029314,-0.005157,-0.00411,0.007562,-0.002154,-0.000126,-0.003001,-0.002496,-0.001113,0.002218,0.009399,-0.004191
Polish:PCA0573,0.122929,0.129988,0.059962,0.043282 ,0.035391,0.023148,0.021856,0.015692,0.008795,-0.009112,-0.000325,-0.006744,0.000892,-0.000963,0.013436,0.011535,0.003651,-0.001267,0.018855,0.004127,0.008235,-0.008656,-0.010106,0.001687,-0.00934
Polish:PCA0574,0.125205,0.13405,0.068259,0.07106,0 .041854,0.039602,0.00705,-0.002538,0.005522,-0.020593,0.015102,0.005095,-0.004014,0.011973,0.013843,0.003315,-0.018645,0.006461,-0.008547,0.037643,-0.004118,-0.006801,0.006779,0.00253,0.003353
Polish:PCA0574B,0.114961,0.117801,0.061471,0.06750 7,0.019388,0.018965,-0.00376,0.01823,-0.0045,-0.005832,0.001786,-0.010641,-0.006095,0.017478,-0.016286,-0.009281,0.00352,0.009248,0.017095,0.003877,-0.024582,-0.000124,0.00986,-0.003494,0.009221
Polish:PCA0617,0.118376,0.13405,0.064865,0.050711, 0.050471,0.02008,0.004935,0.016384,0.005931,-0.009841,-0.012666,-0.003897,0.006244,0.016515,-0.011265,0.001326,-0.002999,0.007348,-0.00905,0.005002,-0.006863,-0.003957,0.008381,0.01458,-0.010418
Polish:PCA0618,0.130897,0.123895,0.067882,0.04199, 0.035083,0.028726,0.00893,0.012923,0.001023,-0.002005,-0.001461,-0.010341,0.010555,0.016515,0.004072,0.003845,-0.014473,0.007601,0.011941,-0.001626,-0.000125,-0.009398,0.005423,-0.000602,0.003952
Polish:PCA0620,0.124067,0.131003,0.054682,0.044251 ,0.038776,0.014223,0.010105,0.011307,0.001227,-0.005285,-0.000974,-3e-04,-0.004906,0.014863,0.003393,0.001061,0.007953,-0.001774,0.00993,-0.007379,-0.003119,0.002102,0.010599,0.007109,-0.002994
Polish:PCA0643,0.099026,0.094444,0.047517,0.031331 ,0.020927,0.019801,0.019506,0.003231,-0.021884,-0.02278,-0.012829,0.014687,-0.001933,-0.010459,0.010043,0.02559,0.014864,0.005194,0.0028 91,0.001876,-0.004367,-0.001855,0.001972,0.005784,0.003233
Polish:PCA0644,0.142279,0.114755,0.069767,0.052649 ,0.028313,0.035419,-0.00893,0.010384,0.003272,-0.020775,0.014777,-0.002997,0.018583,0.004954,-0.031351,-0.005569,-0.001825,-0.00038,-0.013701,-0.006628,0.004742,0.003957,0.010723,0.002048,0.012 214
Polish:PCA0645,0.135449,0.117801,0.064111,0.061693 ,0.023697,0.029005,-0.00047,0.001154,0.003477,-0.025878,0.001786,-0.021281,0.013082,0.026011,0.0076,-0.006497,-0.023469,0.004307,-0.005028,-0.016883,0.004243,0.027698,0.000739,-0.00482,-0.010059
Polish:PCA0649,0.120652,0.099522,0.054682,0.049419 ,0.025235,0.026774,-0.00094,-0.000231,-0.01084,-0.016766,0.002273,-0.005545,0.008325,0.020919,-0.008143,-0.003978,-0.011604,0.011529,0.004274,-0.007879,-0.018842,0.00272,0.007395,-0.006748,-0.009221
Polish:PCA0663,0.124067,0.123895,0.058831,0.076551 ,0.047393,0.017291,0.002115,0.015692,0.006136,-0.030251,-0.00065,-0.003597,0.00773,0.03413,-0.003257,-0.008884,-0.017211,-0.019257,-0.000628,-0.004252,-0.011979,-0.003339,-0.013064,-0.001687,0.000718

plus other Polish samples

Target: cass
Distance: 0.6146% / 0.00614594 | ADC: 0.5x RC
21.8 Polish:PCA0618
12.8 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
12.2 Piast?:PCA0573B
11.4 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0148__AD_950__Cov_51.95%
10.6 Polish:PCA0620
8.8 Polish:PCA0617
8.6 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0187__AD_1100__Cov_16.32%
5.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0122__AD_950__Cov_32.59%
4.6 Poland_Bodzia_VA:VK155__AD_1000__Cov_20.85%
3.6 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0498__AD_200__Cov_14. 98%

Target: cass
Distance: 0.4111% / 0.00411138 | ADC: 0.25x RC
16.8 Polish:PCA0618
14.4 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0187__AD_1100__Cov_16.32%
12.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0148__AD_950__Cov_51.95%
9.8 Piast?:PCA0573B
9.6 Poland_Konskie_MA:PCA0309__AD_1100__Cov_18.32%
7.8 Poland_Niemcza_MA_oBalkans:PCA0126__AD_950__Cov_26 .60%
6.4 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0040__AD_200__Cov_17.76%
5.8 Poland_Santok_MA:PCA0399__AD_1100__Cov_18.13%
5.8 Polish:PCA0617
4.8 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0102__AD_300__Cov_14.17%
3.4 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
2.8 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0140__AD_950__Cov_26.81%

Distance to: cass
0.02917306 Polish:PCA0618
0.03165306 Polish:PCA0620
0.03229626 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0122__AD_950__Cov_32.59%
0.03373615 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0187__AD_1100__Cov_16.32%
0.03385271 Poland_Viking.SG:VK154_noUDG.SG__AD_1000__Cov_90.3 9%
0.03400179 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0148__AD_950__Cov_51.95%
0.03412573 Polish:PCA0617
0.03548201 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0146__AD_950__Cov_17.03%
0.03680430 Poland_Viking.SG:VK156_noUDG.SG__AD_1000__Cov_53.7 3%
0.03680537 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
0.03741509 Poland_Viking.SG:VK157_noUDG.SG__AD_1000__Cov_47.3 0%
0.03786296 Polish:PCA0251
0.03855874 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0027__AD_200__Cov_26.91%
0.03876781 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0063__AD_200__Cov_28.45%
0.03937424 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0198__AD_1100__Cov_22.83%
0.03938082 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0339__AD_1100__Cov_38 .61%
0.03958413 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.03985382 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10634.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_60.11%
0.04059660 Poland_Maszycka_Magdalenian:MAZ001__BC_16435__Cov_ 2.25%
0.04066400 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0089__AD_300__Cov_30.27%
0.04085869 Poland_Viking.SG:VK494_noUDG.SG__AD_1000__Cov_12.5 1%
0.04102797 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0092__AD_300__Cov_32.64%
0.04103291 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0332__AD_1100__Cov_25 .61%
0.04129695 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0124__AD_950__Cov_43.78%
0.04148383 Poland_Konskie_MA:PCA0309__AD_1100__Cov_18.32%

Target: cass
Distance: 0.5487% / 0.00548685 | R4P
26.6 Polish:PCA0618
19.2 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0148__AD_950__Cov_51.95%
18.2 Piast?:PCA0573B
8.0 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0187__AD_1100__Cov_16.32%
7.8 Polish:PCA0663
6.0 Polish:PCA0617
5.4 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0181__AD_1100__Cov_17.14%
3.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0142__AD_950__Cov_17.33%
2.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0133__AD_950__Cov_9.52%
2.6 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0140__AD_950__Cov_26.81%

Target: cass
Distance: 0.6123% / 0.00612310 | R3P
28.0 Polish:PCA0618
25.2 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0148__AD_950__Cov_51.95%
15.2 Piast?:PCA0573B
10.8 Polish:PCA0663
8.8 Polish:PCA0617
4.8 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0133__AD_950__Cov_9.52%
3.2 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0140__AD_950__Cov_26.81%
2.6 Polish:PCA0644
1.4 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0142__AD_950__Cov_17.33%

Peterski

06-03-2025, 04:59 PM

According to Figlerowicz the main line of Piasts was R1b-S747 (in ancient DNA found among the Picts, today mainly in the UK):

[R1b-S747 is also known as R1b-L1335]

https://i.imgur.com/SKJAHqf.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/2ZddE2R.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/Csg0ZnS.jpeg

However, another geneticist M. Golubinski checked Piast samples published at ENA and he thinks that it was rather R1b-U152.

We will see who is right in near future.

=====

Also it can be added that the oldest tested Piast (PIAST01) is either Wladyslaw Herman or Boleslaw III Krzywousty.

So we don't know if there were any non-paternity events among previous Piasts between Mieszko I and Boleslaw III.

For example there is a theory that Krzywousty was not a biological son of Herman.

=====

Edit:

From another forum:

“PIAST02 dated to 1113, with an estimated age of 40 years, would perfectly match Zbigniew, the first-born son of Wladyslaw Herman and his first Polish wife, Przeclawa.”

cass

06-03-2025, 05:06 PM

The Piast Dynasty versus the elites
https://i.ibb.co/gMq5PB3f/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-73.png (https://ibb.co/27VDsfyC)

and vs early Polish Slavs.
https://i.ibb.co/Mx4fSdKK/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-74.png (https://ibb.co/XrgDLH66)

and vs Polish Vikings
https://i.ibb.co/xtvhXY4L/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-75.png (https://ibb.co/hJ5sLcq9)

cass

06-03-2025, 05:15 PM

Which one of them is the oldest?

vs ancient Polish samples
Distance to: Piast?:PCA0573B
0.04150935 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0111__AD_300__Cov_11.59%
0.04273888 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0059__AD_200__Cov_78.42%
0.04328415 Poland_Lad_MA_oWestEurope:PCA0201__AD_1100__Cov_13 .09%
0.04475526 Poland_Gaski_IA:PCA0011__BC_50__Cov_28.25%
0.04533419 Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG:pcw260_noUDG.SG__BC _2287__Cov_65.88%
0.04771171 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz720__BC_1268__Cov_46.60%
0.04838819 Poland_BellBeaker:I6583__BC_2188__Cov_71.95%
0.04903514 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0063__AD_200__Cov_28.45%
0.04966512 Poland_Santok_MA_oEEF:PCA0391__AD_1100__Cov_11.68%
0.04974238 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10631.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_44.50%
0.04981462 Polish:PCA0620
0.04982647 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.04986427 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0046__AD_200__Cov_81.13%
0.05135640 Poland_BellBeaker:I4253__BC_2316__Cov_38.75%
0.05157803 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10618.SG_ _AD_161__Cov_55.41%
0.05215768 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0060__AD_200__Cov_71.91%
0.05217713 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0498__AD_200__Cov_14. 98%
0.05229219 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0040__AD_200__Cov_17.76%
0.05253224 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0479__AD_200__Cov_14. 63%
0.05288874 Polish:PCA0573
0.05311780 Poland_EBA_Unetice.SG:RISE154_noUDG.SG__BC_1836__C ov_14.37%
0.05330691 Poland_Gaski_IA_oEEF:PCA0012__BC_50__Cov_18.40%
0.05486556 Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG:pcw280_noUDG.SG__BC _2300__Cov_24.74%
0.05495687 Poland_ChopiceVeseleCulture:I6537__BC_2180__Cov_45 .56%
0.05504141 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz714__BC_1395__Cov_unknown

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0657
0.05958379 Poland_Santok_MA_oEEF:PCA0411__AD_1100__Cov_10.46%
0.06057471 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0146__AD_950__Cov_17.03%
0.06239263 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0143__AD_950__Cov_35.02%
0.06557753 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0140__AD_950__Cov_26.81%
0.06634300 Poland_Niemcza_MA_oBalkans:PCA0126__AD_950__Cov_26 .60%
0.06784383 Polish:PCA0617
0.06815192 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0332__AD_1100__Cov_25 .61%
0.06865761 Polish:PCA0618
0.07009727 Polish:PCA0574B
0.07078916 Polish:PCA0620
0.07166373 Piast?:PCA0660
0.07185669 Polish:PCA0649
0.07468529 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0124__AD_950__Cov_43.78%
0.07572856 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0192__AD_1100__Cov_14.90%
0.07582489 Poland_Markowice_MA:PCA0158__AD_1100__Cov_30.41%
0.07604949 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0191__AD_1100__Cov_13.12%
0.07609636 Poland_Santok_MA:PCA0426__AD_1100__Cov_11.83%
0.07664156 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0339__AD_1100__Cov_38 .61%
0.07736478 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0187__AD_1100__Cov_16.32%
0.07776490 Poland_Plonsk_MA:PCA0328__AD_1100__Cov_24.90%
0.07796570 Poland_Markowice_MA:PCA0156__AD_1100__Cov_10.37%
0.07857573 Polish:PCA0644
0.07883197 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0142__AD_950__Cov_17.33%
0.07996906 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0335__AD_1100__Cov_22 .01%
0.08005299 Poland_Poznan_MA:PCA0549__AD_1100__Cov_11.03%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0648
0.05371016 Polish:PCA0649
0.06257479 Polish:PCA0618
0.06329897 Poland_Markowice_MA:PCA0158__AD_1100__Cov_30.41%
0.06529951 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0339__AD_1100__Cov_38 .61%
0.06574102 Poland_Santok_MA:PCA0426__AD_1100__Cov_11.83%
0.06595075 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0143__AD_950__Cov_35.02%
0.06598282 Poland_Krakow_MA:VK210__AD_1150__Cov_3.48%
0.06626420 Poland_Niemcza_MA_oBalkans:PCA0126__AD_950__Cov_26 .60%
0.06637042 Poland_Viking.SG:VK494_noUDG.SG__AD_1000__Cov_12.5 1%
0.06714570 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
0.06753904 Poland_Rumin_MA:PCA0246__AD_1100__Cov_14.86%
0.06826917 Poland_Poznan_MA:PCA0549__AD_1100__Cov_11.03%
0.06959491 Polish:PCA0663
0.07022199 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0065__AD_200__Cov_11.62%
0.07039184 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0146__AD_950__Cov_17.03%
0.07052940 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0332__AD_1100__Cov_25 .61%
0.07057694 Poland_Plonsk_MA:PCA0297__AD_1100__Cov_12.58%
0.07068817 Piast?:PCA0660
0.07109305 Polish:PCA0574B
0.07164242 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz672__BC_1529__Cov_26.06%
0.07249988 Poland_Markowice_MA:PCA0156__AD_1100__Cov_10.37%
0.07258610 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz747__BC_1391__Cov_29.66%
0.07296643 Poland_Milicz_MA:PCA0541__AD_1100__Cov_11.98%
0.07371828 Polish:PCA0645
0.07376009 Poland_Legowo_MA:PCA0166__AD_1100__Cov_20.27%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0660
0.05365808 Polish:PCA0649
0.05623102 Poland_Markowice_MA:PCA0158__AD_1100__Cov_30.41%
0.05801442 Poland_Markowice_MA:PCA0156__AD_1100__Cov_10.37%
0.05892795 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0143__AD_950__Cov_35.02%
0.06040107 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0339__AD_1100__Cov_38 .61%
0.06066539 Poland_Plonsk_MA:PCA0297__AD_1100__Cov_12.58%
0.06204453 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0335__AD_1100__Cov_22 .01%
0.06342743 Poland_Poznan_MA:PCA0549__AD_1100__Cov_11.03%
0.06363482 Piast?:PCA0252B
0.06385886 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0332__AD_1100__Cov_25 .61%
0.06507441 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0142__AD_950__Cov_17.33%
0.06610405 Polish:PCA0618
0.06677368 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz672__BC_1529__Cov_26.06%
0.06704124 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0137__AD_950__Cov_33.16%
0.06705067 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0122__AD_950__Cov_32.59%
0.06723771 Poland_Santok_MA:PCA0426__AD_1100__Cov_11.83%
0.06728565 Poland_Legowo_MA:PCA0166__AD_1100__Cov_20.27%
0.06753461 Poland_Plonsk_MA:PCA0327__AD_1100__Cov_unknown
0.06820326 Polish:PCA0574B
0.06868936 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0133__AD_950__Cov_9.52%
0.06905197 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0197__AD_1100__Cov_16.69%
0.06910021 Polish:PCA0644
0.06926670 Poland_Santok_MA_oEEF:PCA0411__AD_1100__Cov_10.46%
0.06930333 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0146__AD_950__Cov_17.03%
0.06938113 Polish:PCA0645

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0252B
0.04654833 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0206__AD_1100__Cov_14.81%
0.04693816 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0185__AD_1100__Cov_11.06%
0.04776602 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz700__BC_1312__Cov_61.82%
0.04866458 Poland_Rumin_MA:PCA0244__AD_1100__Cov_16.15%
0.04870419 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz709__BC_1597__Cov_20.02%
0.04949599 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz655__BC_1402__Cov_21.19%
0.05010661 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0137__AD_950__Cov_33.16%
0.05092038 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz551_2__BC_1250__Cov_7.76%
0.05111345 Poland_Plonsk_MA_oBaltic:PCA0324__AD_1100__Cov_19. 34%
0.05117941 Poland_Dziekanowice_22_MA:PCA0359__AD_1100__Cov_27 .40%
0.05202069 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz711__BC_1471__Cov_34.63%
0.05280495 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0197__AD_1100__Cov_16.69%
0.05295718 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0194__AD_1100__Cov_41.11%
0.05308933 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz747__BC_1391__Cov_29.66%
0.05317424 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0340__AD_1100__Cov_42 .73%
0.05332909 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_MA:PCA0343__AD_1100__Cov_32 .47%
0.05350952 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0148__AD_950__Cov_51.95%
0.05374768 Poland_Viking.SG:VK156_noUDG.SG__AD_1000__Cov_53.7 3%
0.05414353 Poland_Dziekanowice_22_MA:PCA0354__AD_1100__Cov_57 .60%
0.05450808 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0192__AD_1100__Cov_14.90%
0.05500462 Poland_Niemcza_MA:PCA0122__AD_950__Cov_32.59%
0.05511502 Poland_Lad_MA:PCA0203__AD_1100__Cov_15.12%
0.05520297 Poland_Legowo_MA:PCA0167__AD_1100__Cov_32.13%
0.05578457 Poland_CordedWare_1.SG:N49_noUDG.SG__BC_2425__Cov_ 79.78%
0.05582233 Poland_CordedWare_1.SG:N47_noUDG.SG__BC_2425__Cov_ 85.18%

cass

06-03-2025, 05:29 PM

Without precise dating, it is difficult to draw any firm conclusions. It is well known that royal elites have always been cosmopolitan.

Piast vs ancient global before 1300AD

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0573B
0.03149513 Iceland_Viking.SG:VK101.SG__AD_1100__Cov_86.62%
0.03302782 Belgium_Sint-Truiden_EarlyLateMedieval:OLV054__AD_1000__Cov_36. 59%
0.03420997 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN004.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_57.86%
0.03504320 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR204__AD_125 0__Cov_70.76%
0.03507576 Croatia_Gepidic.AG:I27295.AG__AD_500__Cov_71.92%
0.03511223 Belgium_Wulpen_HighLateMedieval:WPK005__AD_1200__C ov_65.08%
0.03511999 Hungary_Langobard.AG:SZ24.AG__AD_508__Cov_39.85%
0.03549809 England_Saxon.AG:SED012.AG__AD_750__Cov_18.39%
0.03568725 Netherlands_Groningen_Medieval_Saxon.AG:GRO012.A.A G__AD_900__Cov_74.85%
0.03586832 Germany_Petersberg_VA:KH150005__AD_1068__Cov_91.18 %
0.03599512 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK319.SG__AD_800__Cov_44.69%
0.03605584 Germany_Drantum_Medieval_Saxon.AG:DRU007.A.AG__AD_ 750__Cov_45.87%
0.03617585 Belgium_Koksijde_LateMerovingian:KOS017__AD_619__C ov_99.72%
0.03631053 Denmark_Medieval.SG:CGG100748.SG__AD_1150__Cov_67. 37%
0.03662201 Hungary_Langobard.SG:SZ11.SG__AD_508__Cov_99.93%
0.03724330 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS153__AD_950__Cov_33.50%
0.03761976 England_Viking.SG:VK166.SG__AD_940__Cov_96.85%
0.03780213 England_EarlyMedieval.AG:I17276.AG__AD_550__Cov_74 .40%
0.03782129 Slovakia_Poprad.SG:DA119.SG__AD_350__Cov_55.22%
0.03827954 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK87.SG__AD_875__Cov_95.75%
0.03863178 Ireland_Kilteasheen_EarlyMedieval_AngloSaxon_Norma n.AG:KIL037.A.AG__AD_1000__Cov_84.12%
0.03868005 Czechia_BA_BellBeaker.AG:I7269.AG__BC_2250__Cov_61 .25%
0.03873208 Belgium_Wulpen_HighLateMedieval:WPK006__AD_974__Co v_58.51%
0.03883041 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN003.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_77.56%
0.03902396 Hungary_Avar.AG:RKF275.AG__AD_737__Cov_84.44%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0657
0.05430702 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS190W__AD_950__Cov_52.48%
0.05577950 Russia_Viking.SG:VK254.SG__AD_1000__Cov_43.63%
0.05643734 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner.SG:SH-251.SG__AD_975__Cov_72.35%
0.05680202 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS195W__AD_950__Cov_46.04%
0.05703472 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0411.SG__AD_1100__Cov_11.02 %
0.05846769 Hungary_EarlyAvar.SG:SZF-181.SG__AD_683__Cov_89.68%
0.05849529 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:VPB-600.SG__AD_1000__Cov_66.14%
0.05854952 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner.SG:SZA-29.SG__AD_950__Cov_88.54%
0.05955320 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite.SG:AGY-49.SG__AD_945__Cov_90.17%
0.05978572 Serbia_Medieval_Gomolava.TW:I1116.TW__AD_931__Cov_ 96.49%
0.05996136 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS82__AD_1050__Cov_69. 46%
0.06001951 NorthMacedonia_Medieval.AG:I2530.AG__AD_1035__Cov_ 60.02%
0.06019243 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner.SG:IBE-206.SG__AD_950__Cov_66.13%
0.06030456 Hungary_Fonyód_EMA:FVD004__AD_450__Cov_65.34%
0.06034792 Poland_Niemcza_IA.SG:PCA0126.SG__AD_950__Cov_24.25 %
0.06063634 Hungary_LittleHungarianPlain_LateAvar:KBS05__AD_85 0__Cov_81.64%
0.06091056 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35008.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.91%
0.06108384 Poland_Niemcza_IA.SG:PCA0146.SG__AD_950__Cov_14.70 %
0.06126281 Hungary_LittleHungarianPlain_EarlyHungarian:KBS27_ _AD_1000__Cov_76.08%
0.06143603 Hungary_Conqueror_Commoner.SG:SH-81.SG__AD_975__Cov_54.48%
0.06235251 Hungary_Zalavár_LateAvar:AHS22__AD_875__Cov_67.67%
0.06275073 Serbia_EarlyMedieval_Slavic.AG:I15541.AG__AD_900__ Cov_37.42%
0.06281671 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite.SG:SP-2.SG__AD_980__Cov_53.17%
0.06283188 Hungary_Fonyód_EMA:FVD001__AD_450__Cov_59.80%
0.06306258 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite.SG:CSU-11.SG__AD_950__Cov_87.29%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0648
0.05371016 Polish:PCA0649
0.05543297 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS190W__AD_950__Cov_52.48%
0.05879906 Hungary_Fonyód_EMA:FVD004__AD_450__Cov_65.34%
0.05940622 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.05981958 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite.SG:K1-1.SG__AD_925__Cov_71.04%
0.06032978 Sweden_Stockholm_VA:gor161__AD_975__Cov_unknown
0.06063545 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.06064732 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK53.SG__AD_975__Cov_53.70%
0.06124409 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.06131348 Russia_Viking.SG:VK408.SG__AD_1050__Cov_17.99%
0.06164280 Serbia_Medieval_Gomolava.TW:I1116.TW__AD_931__Cov_ 96.49%
0.06207899 Hungary_Fonyód_EMA:FVD001__AD_450__Cov_59.80%
0.06257479 Polish:PCA0618
0.06307791 Sweden_Sigtuna_VA:nuf005__AD_965__Cov_unknown
0.06347307 Hungary_Avar.AG:RKF248.AG__AD_737__Cov_84.87%
0.06352994 Serbia_Roman.AG:I15520.AG__AD_254__Cov_47.76%
0.06355438 Ukraine_EIA_Scythian_o1.SG:MJ-13.SG__BC_545__Cov_21.10%
0.06372176 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS82__AD_1050__Cov_69. 46%
0.06379900 Czechia_LBA_Knoviz.AG:I16089.AG__BC_1050__Cov_70.0 8%
0.06425712 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval.AG:I19561.AG__AD_1248__ Cov_43.65%
0.06449695 Poland_Niemcza_IA_contam.SG:PCA0143.SG__AD_873__Co v_31.99%
0.06460272 Poland_Kowalewko_Wielbark_IA.SG:PCA0065.SG__AD_200 __Cov_9.33%
0.06477380 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite.SG:CSU-11.SG__AD_950__Cov_87.29%
0.06486131 Poland_Markowice_IA_contam.SG:PCA0158.SG__AD_1100_ _Cov_26.84%
0.06505781 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0339.SG__AD_1100__C ov_35.76%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0660
0.04554754 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.04718394 Hungary_Avar.AG:KUP020.AG__AD_737__Cov_83.73%
0.05060746 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS190W__AD_950__Cov_52.48%
0.05062953 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.05132699 Slovakia_EBA_Nitrianska.AG:I13458.AG__AD_843__Cov_ 71.75%
0.05326234 Ukraine_Kharkiv_Scythian_LeftDnipro_LocAgr_2_EIA:U KR096__BC_290__Cov_64.95%
0.05365808 Polish:PCA0649
0.05379019 Hungary_Fonyód_EMA:FVD004__AD_450__Cov_65.34%
0.05429204 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.05534003 Poland_Magdalenian_contam.AG:MAZ001.AG__BC_16435__ Cov_45.30%
0.05560235 Hungary_Árpád_Ladislaus_I:SZTL__AD_1040__Cov_99.94 %
0.05719050 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.05726310 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS001.AG__AD_1157_ _Cov_47.73%
0.05745914 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.05786699 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.05792858 Hungary_EarlyAvar.SG:SZF-181.SG__AD_683__Cov_89.68%
0.05819550 Hungary_Conqueror_Elite.SG:K1-1.SG__AD_925__Cov_71.04%
0.05821496 Hungary_LittleHungarianPlain_LateAvar:KBS03__AD_85 0__Cov_79.44%
0.05866013 Hungary_Zalavár_LateAvar:AHS22__AD_875__Cov_67.67%
0.05870469 Russia_Shekshovo9_HighMedieval.AG:SHE007.AG__AD_11 25__Cov_18.25%
0.05874894 Hungary_Avar.AG:RKF248.AG__AD_737__Cov_84.87%
0.05896307 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.AG:I26748.AG__AD_838__Cov_74 .43%
0.05916532 Ukraine_EIA_Scythian_o1.SG:MJ-13.SG__BC_545__Cov_21.10%
0.05918136 Russia_Viking.SG:VK254.SG__AD_1000__Cov_43.63%
0.05924283 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK457.SG__AD_975__Cov_18.21%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0252B
0.04291182 Croatia_Mursa_Roman.SG:R3657.SG__AD_282__Cov_44.65 %
0.04316159 Italy_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_NEurope.AG:I10949.AG__B C_480__Cov_49.60%
0.04477471 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o.AG:I18226.AG__BC_345__Cov_65.6 6%
0.04484416 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA001__AD_1138__Cov_54.9 7%
0.04500968 Poland_Rumin_IA.SG:PCA0244.SG__AD_1089__Cov_15.40%
0.04658117 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK395.SG__AD_1050__Cov_79.31%
0.04674615 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS001.AG__AD_1157_ _Cov_47.73%
0.04753845 Estonia_IA.SG:s19_VII4_1.SG__BC_543__Cov_30.77%
0.04776602 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz700__BC_1312__Cov_61.82%
0.04796432 Sweden_Viking_o1.SG:vik_KAL006.SG__AD_1050__Cov_67 .34%
0.04812851 Ukraine_Mykolaiv_Antiquity_Greeks?_2_EIA:UKR153__B C_573__Cov_42.28%
0.04825152 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA003__AD_1141__Cov_72.2 2%
0.04840121 Serbia_Roman_AfricanPossible.TW:I32305.TW__AD_100_ _Cov_80.26%
0.04858235 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK457.SG__AD_975__Cov_18.21%
0.04870419 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz709__BC_1597__Cov_20.02%
0.04909889 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0185.SG__AD_1100__Cov_10.11%
0.04928066 Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VII15_1.SG__AD_39__Cov_22. 43%
0.04949599 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz655__BC_1402__Cov_21.19%
0.05011577 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK18.SG__AD_1050__Cov_59.37%
0.05018890 Ukraine_Volyn_Lusatian_EIA:UKR168__BC_850__Cov_57. 47%
0.05072643 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK443.SG__AD_950__Cov_91.22%
0.05072745 Ukraine_Odesa_ThracianHallstatt_2_EIA:UKR000__BC_8 50__Cov_68.51%
0.05092038 Poland_Trzciniec_MBA:poz551_2__BC_1250__Cov_7.76%
0.05096583 Slovakia_EBA_Nitrianska.AG:I12991.AG__AD_817__Cov_ 64.57%
0.05147858 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_urm160.SG__AD_1152__Cov_73.63 %

The most interesting one is Piast?:PCA0252B. It looks very local.

michal3141

06-03-2025, 05:41 PM

May I ask for the similarities/distances to the modern population averages in Europe for Piast samples?

Peterski

06-03-2025, 05:45 PM

But shouldn't it be possible with IBD to check if PIAST05 was either grandson or great-grandson of PIAST01?

In such case, it should be possible to establish if PIAST01 is Herman and Krzywousty. Why couldn't they do it?

cass

06-03-2025, 05:53 PM

May I ask for the similarities/distances to the modern population averages in Europe for Piast samples?

Such an average offers little insight, particularly when it comes to royal families with such far-reaching kinship ties.

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0573B
0.03751498 German
0.03837639 German_Erlangen
0.03925048 Dutch
0.04133484 Afrikaner
0.04140709 German_Hamburg
0.04146425 Welsh
0.04175945 Danish
0.04215201 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04229037 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04285806 BelgianB
0.04289311 Austrian
0.04309241 BelgianA
0.04375801 French_Brittany
0.04391798 Shetlandic
0.04448691 Norwegian
0.04493290 English
0.04500714 English_Cornwall
0.04514768 French_Nord
0.04531308 Scottish
0.04541324 French_Alsace
0.04565459 Orcadian
0.04569201 Czech
0.04671157 Hungarian
0.04703894 Irish
0.04717181 BelgianC

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0657
0.06045928 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06046977 Moldovan
0.06066117 Slovenian
0.06133446 Croatian
0.06177410 Hungarian
0.06374413 Bosnian
0.06402872 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.06434671 Moldovan_o
0.06632663 Serbian
0.06655107 Montenegrin
0.06729496 Czech
0.06778931 Polish_Silesian
0.06843335 Romanian
0.06854581 Austrian
0.06913518 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.06967035 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.07008768 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07098840 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.07122824 Polish
0.07124120 Russian_Belgorod
0.07148981 Slovakian
0.07153249 Russian_Orel
0.07173630 German_Erlangen
0.07198410 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.07226210 Russian_Ryazan

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0648
0.06399780 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.06399827 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.06569540 Russian_Orel
0.06576871 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.06595785 Russian_Voronez
0.06650797 Russian_Ryazan
0.06723755 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.06753523 Moksha
0.06774382 Russian_Kursk
0.06780181 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06795960 Finnish_Southwest
0.06818386 Moldovan_o
0.06876655 Russian_Smolensk
0.06883132 Russian_Kaluga
0.06955121 Polish
0.06962726 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.06991019 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.06992610 Hungarian
0.07015036 Slovenian
0.07034007 Mordovian
0.07038277 Czech
0.07073885 Belarusian
0.07087441 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.07110186 Russian_Kostroma
0.07157027 German_East

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0660
0.04910109 Moksha
0.05077901 Mordovian
0.05155693 Erzya
0.05222405 Russian_Orel
0.05303497 Russian_Ryazan
0.05509696 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05572160 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.05595423 Russian_Kursk
0.05607063 Russian_Tver
0.05619799 Moldovan_o
0.05671730 Russian_Kostroma
0.05725130 Russian_Belgorod
0.05793653 Russian_Kaluga
0.05816822 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05827973 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.05869847 Russian_Voronez
0.05913834 Russian_Smolensk
0.05938340 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05992393 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.06029313 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.06082499 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.06129463 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.06266805 Polish
0.06268258 Belarusian
0.06378179 Russian_Yaroslavl

rothaer

06-03-2025, 07:01 PM

The Piast Dynasty versus the elites
https://i.ibb.co/gMq5PB3f/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-73.png (https://ibb.co/27VDsfyC)

and vs early Polish Slavs.
https://i.ibb.co/Mx4fSdKK/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-74.png (https://ibb.co/XrgDLH66)

Conclusion: Piasts and Polish elites were notably Germanic shifted compared to early Polish Slavs (as well as to modern Poles after I know where they do plot in the North Europe PCA).

What is meant by Polish Vikings, Viking Age samples from Poland?

Peterski

06-03-2025, 07:06 PM

rothaer

06-03-2025, 07:11 PM

According to Figlerowicz the main line of Piasts was R1b-S747 (in ancient DNA found among the Picts, today mainly in the UK):

[R1b-S747 is also known as R1b-L1335]

It likely hails from the local population then, not from the immigrating Slavs. Whether it initially was provided by Lusatian culture folks, Celts or Germanics seems unclear. However, from the common perception at the time of the Slavic expansion there were no Lusatian culture or Celts left in the area in question but just Germanics, that had assimilated them. This would implicate that the Piast haplogroup was eventually mediated via Germanics to the early Slavs.

Peterski

06-03-2025, 07:15 PM

It likely hails from the local population then, not from the immigrating Slavs. Whether it initially was provided by Lusatian culture folks, Celts or Germanics seems unclear. However, from the common perception at the time of the Slavic expansion there were no Lusatian culture or Celts left in the area in question but just Germanics, that had assimilated them. This would implicate that the Piast haplogroup was eventually mediated via Germanics to the early Slavs.

Or do I miss something?

Yes this is one of possibilities. Originally it probably came to Poland with Celts, just like my haplogroup R1b-L617.

Another possibility (mentioned during that conference which I attented) is that some Pictish refugees came to Poland in the 9th century, when Pictland was being attacked by Gaels and fell to the Gaels (who created Scotland after Pictland ceased to exist).

There are of course also many other possibilities.

There is a possibility that Slavs absorbed and Slavicized some Celts already back in Ukraine, because Celts were also in Ukraine.

rothaer

06-03-2025, 07:20 PM

We don't know which samples are Piasts and Polish elites. We will know this only after the publication in Nature Communications. Piasts intermarried a lot with German and other western princesses so it is no surprise that they are Germanic-shifted.

True. Already Vladislav Herman had one grandmother from Lotharingia and his grandfather Mieszko II Lambert had a mother Emnilda of Lusatia that had a Germanic first name. I didn't check Vladislv Herman's mother from Kiev but there could be some Germanic ancestry as well considering the early Rus.

It would be a desiderate to target Mieszko I.

rothaer

06-03-2025, 07:27 PM

Yes this is one of possibilities. Originally it probably came to Poland with Celts, just like my haplogroup R1b-L617.

Another possibility (mentioned during that conference which I attented) is that some Pictish refugees came to Poland in the 9th century, when Pictland was being attacked by Gaels and fell to the Gaels (who created Scotland after Pictland ceased to exist).

There are of course also many other possibilities.

There is a possibility that Slavs absorbed and Slavicized some Celts already back in Ukraine, because Celts were also in Ukraine.

This is why Occam's razor was needed and came into being. :)

cass

06-03-2025, 07:39 PM

Conclusion: Piasts and Polish elites were notably Germanic shifted compared to early Polish Slavs (as well as to modern Poles after I know where they do plot in the North Europe PCA).

What is meant by Polish Vikings, Viking Age samples from Poland?

1. This is probably an oversimplification. The Piast dynasty’s family connections included all neighboring Christian peoples. Among the wives of the Piasts were Přemyslids, Rurikids, Ascanians, Gediminids, and Wettins. It is difficult to determine who exactly was buried in the other graves of the cathedrals in Płock and Kraków. They could possibly have been clergymen.

2. These individuals were probably buried with Viking equipment. Like those in Bodzia, they were likely Rurikids."

cass

06-03-2025, 07:43 PM

Peterski

06-03-2025, 07:46 PM

Albannach

06-03-2025, 07:47 PM

Yes this is one of possibilities. Originally it probably came to Poland with Celts, just like my haplogroup R1b-L617.

Another possibility (mentioned during that conference which I attented) is that some Pictish refugees came to Poland in the 9th century, when Pictland was being attacked by Gaels and fell to the Gaels (who created Scotland after Pictland ceased to exist).

There are of course also many other possibilities.

There is a possibility that Slavs absorbed and Slavicized some Celts already back in Ukraine, because Celts were also in Ukraine.

It isn't even known if L1335 is Pictish, most Clans that are L1335 claim to be of Gaelic Dalriadan descent.

cass

06-03-2025, 07:48 PM

Peterski

06-03-2025, 07:56 PM

It isn't even known if L1335 is Pictish, most Clans that are L1335 claim to be of Gaelic Dalriadan descent.

Interesting! However, it has been found among 5th - 6th century Picts in ancient DNA.

Maybe it was present in Ireland too, we don't have Iron Age samples from Ireland yet.

cass

06-03-2025, 08:02 PM

The profile of individuals from the Piast elite. There are strong ties with the Hungarian elites, which is historically justified.

Samples spanning the period 1000–1300 AD.

Distance to: Polish:PCA0663
0.04334386 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.04667286 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS002.AG__AD_1111_ _Cov_33.66%
0.04673458 Russia_Viking.SG:VK273.SG__AD_1000__Cov_67.28%
0.04683024 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0339.SG__AD_1100__C ov_35.76%
0.04816566 Poland_Markowice_IA_contam.SG:PCA0158.SG__AD_1100_ _Cov_26.84%
0.04879295 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0399.SG__AD_1100__Cov_18.55 %
0.04880062 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160.SG__AD_1100__Cov_84.03%
0.04906213 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA007__AD_1209__Cov_44.6 2%
0.04914575 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.04949334 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA005__AD_1214__Cov_73.6 3%
0.04990094 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0408.SG__AD_1100__Cov_8.86%
0.05029707 Poland_Plonsk_IA.SG:PCA0297.SG__AD_1100__Cov_10.56 %
0.05101722 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009__AD_1206__Cov_66.3 6%
0.05114242 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.05141757 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA011__AD_1099__Cov_65.2 9%
0.05146458 Poland_Dziekanowice_IA.SG:PCA0359.SG__AD_1100__Cov _23.14%
0.05167808 Poland_Viking.SG:VK157.SG__AD_1000__Cov_56.56%
0.05183235 Poland_Plonsk_IA.SG:PCA0327.SG__AD_1100__Cov_14.50 %
0.05204315 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_84005.SG__AD_1050__Cov_64.52%
0.05228031 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0343.SG__AD_1100__C ov_28.92%
0.05272521 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.05317486 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002__AD_1255__Cov_43.3 8%
0.05367868 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.05375081 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK309.SG__AD_1050__Cov_28.34%
0.05378135 Poland_Legowo_IA.SG:PCA0167.SG__AD_1100__Cov_31.10 %

Distance to: Polish:PCA0649
0.04589373 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.04671269 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.04740129 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval.AG:I19561.AG__AD_1248__ Cov_43.65%
0.04770507 Hungary_Árpád_Ladislaus_I:SZTL__AD_1040__Cov_99.94 %
0.04945177 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.04968065 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.05013000 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.05026488 Russia_Viking.SG:VK254.SG__AD_1000__Cov_43.63%
0.05175747 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.05237203 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35010.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.92%
0.05237499 Poland_Markowice_IA_contam.SG:PCA0158.SG__AD_1100_ _Cov_26.84%
0.05339688 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus.SG:VK541.SG__AD_1250__Cov_92. 59%
0.05392845 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.05440330 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0332.SG__AD_1100__C ov_23.09%
0.05579990 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS177W__AD_1000__Cov_42.96%
0.05596261 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0426.SG__AD_1106__Cov_10.71 %
0.05635562 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS84__AD_1100__Cov_7 8.67%
0.05645829 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS103__AD_1050__Cov_66 .67%
0.05689456 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.05721805 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009__AD_1206__Cov_66.3 6%
0.05747227 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS001.AG__AD_1157_ _Cov_47.73%
0.05764506 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0339.SG__AD_1100__C ov_35.76%
0.05790404 Hungary_Zalavár_Medieval:AHS68__AD_1100__Cov_71.28 %
0.05795610 Russia_Viking.SG:VK272.SG__AD_1000__Cov_20.09%
0.05804856 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS002.AG__AD_1111_ _Cov_33.66%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0645
0.04922436 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:gor164.SG__AD_1050__ Cov_99.36%
0.05194848 Poland_Markowice_IA_contam.SG:PCA0158.SG__AD_1100_ _Cov_26.84%
0.05366634 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.05413064 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.05519753 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS001.AG__AD_1157_ _Cov_47.73%
0.05544856 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_84005.SG__AD_1050__Cov_64.52%
0.05609344 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.05712161 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:gam872.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.91%
0.05725981 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0399.SG__AD_1100__Cov_18.55 %
0.05962666 Poland_Legowo_IA.SG:PCA0167.SG__AD_1100__Cov_31.10 %
0.05973229 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0426.SG__AD_1106__Cov_10.71 %
0.05996397 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval.AG:I19561.AG__AD_1248__ Cov_43.65%
0.06013195 Poland_Plonsk_IA.SG:PCA0314.SG__AD_1100__Cov_12.46 %
0.06077609 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.06081558 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS002.AG__AD_1111_ _Cov_33.66%
0.06120086 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.06251093 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35014.TW__AD_1125__Cov_3 1.46%
0.06302522 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK354.SG__AD_1011__Cov_50.61%
0.06304684 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:enb508.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.59%
0.06328047 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking.SG:VK539.SG__AD_1050__ Cov_83.44%
0.06378580 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002__AD_1255__Cov_43.3 8%
0.06403021 Russia_Viking.SG:VK220.SG__AD_1050__Cov_86.78%
0.06417003 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA007__AD_1209__Cov_44.6 2%
0.06427235 Poland_Viking.SG:VK157.SG__AD_1000__Cov_56.56%
0.06457096 Poland_Rumin_IA.SG:PCA0244.SG__AD_1089__Cov_15.40%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0644
0.04873632 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.04951160 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.05031203 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.05240051 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus.SG:VK541.SG__AD_1250__Cov_92. 59%
0.05277977 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0203.SG__AD_1100__Cov_11.67%
0.05354997 Poland_Konskie_IA.SG:PCA0309.SG__AD_1100__Cov_14.6 2%
0.05387139 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS103__AD_1050__Cov_66 .67%
0.05421184 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0344.SG__AD_1100__C ov_36.39%
0.05635692 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.05659729 Poland_Plonsk_IA.SG:PCA0314.SG__AD_1100__Cov_12.46 %
0.05665568 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35014.TW__AD_1125__Cov_3 1.46%
0.05691603 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0198.SG__AD_1171__Cov_17.67%
0.05801839 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0335.SG__AD_1100__C ov_19.59%
0.05821468 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA007__AD_1209__Cov_44.6 2%
0.05838455 Poland_Oblaczkowo_IA.SG:PCA0218.SG__AD_1100__Cov_9 .02%
0.05863214 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0181.SG__AD_1100__Cov_15.99%
0.05921111 Poland_Poznan_IA.SG:PCA0549.SG__AD_1100__Cov_10.19 %
0.05924284 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0343.SG__AD_1100__C ov_28.92%
0.05941593 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.05942144 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160.SG__AD_1100__Cov_84.03%
0.05965274 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS001.AG__AD_1157_ _Cov_47.73%
0.05967168 Poland_Plonsk_IA.SG:PCA0327.SG__AD_1100__Cov_14.50 %
0.05972634 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.06015412 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.06022375 Poland_Viking_1d.rel.VK157.SG:VK155.SG__AD_1000__C ov_26.41%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0643
0.05208372 Hungary_Árpád_Ladislaus_I:SZTL__AD_1040__Cov_99.94 %
0.05586197 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS55B__AD_1288__Cov_ 62.72%
0.05661228 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS390F__AD_1195__Cov _63.87%
0.05877646 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS84__AD_1100__Cov_7 8.67%
0.06005873 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:PLE-441.SG__AD_1050__Cov_98.36%
0.06033536 Hungary_Zalavár_Medieval:AHS41__AD_1100__Cov_73.89 %
0.06069677 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS261F__AD_1289__Cov _67.46%
0.06216143 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS81__AD_1100__Cov_7 5.99%
0.06281661 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR225__AD_124 2__Cov_75.43%
0.06503119 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:IBE-106.SG__AD_1050__Cov_67.57%
0.06525400 Russia_Viking.SG:VK16.SG__AD_1050__Cov_22.59%
0.06572398 Sweden_north_Medieval.SG:wes004.SG__AD_1139__Cov_9 9.87%
0.06595701 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS57__AD_1291__Cov_7 2.40%
0.06613652 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR171__AD_125 0__Cov_52.89%
0.06712374 Hungary_Árpád_Béla_III:HU3B__AD_1148__Cov_95.34%
0.06718569 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:IBE-116.SG__AD_1050__Cov_88.31%
0.06744084 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN007.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_54.71%
0.06778726 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:IBE-90.SG__AD_1050__Cov_62.80%
0.06889505 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR234__AD_125 0__Cov_63.98%
0.07014461 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:MH-153.SG__AD_1050__Cov_91.10%
0.07054551 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR196__AD_125 0__Cov_70.02%
0.07074860 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.07079952 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR164__AD_125 0__Cov_70.45%
0.07092485 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR216__AD_125 0__Cov_81.00%
0.07093193 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS184W__AD_1000__Cov_20.40%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0620
0.02192305 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.02606456 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35095.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.76%
0.03118756 Hungary_Árpád_Béla_III:HU3B__AD_1148__Cov_95.34%
0.03218153 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.03389150 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS174W__AD_1000__Cov_57.55%
0.03405393 Hungary_Zalavár_Medieval:AHS68__AD_1100__Cov_71.28 %
0.03438794 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN012.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_77.36%
0.03600605 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS77__AD_1050__Cov_64. 95%
0.03675750 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS84__AD_1100__Cov_7 8.67%
0.03680800 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I34980.TW__AD_1166__Cov_9 6.06%
0.03730462 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:MH-88.SG__AD_1050__Cov_80.46%
0.03734349 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS81__AD_1100__Cov_7 5.99%
0.03741639 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35010.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.92%
0.03755768 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS103__AD_1050__Cov_66 .67%
0.03757319 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.03771502 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS177W__AD_1000__Cov_42.96%
0.03875081 Montenegro_Doclea_Roman.SG:R9920.SG__AD_1100__Cov_ 53.37%
0.03875759 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS57__AD_1291__Cov_7 2.40%
0.03911415 Russia_Viking.SG:VK219.SG__AD_1000__Cov_82.14%
0.03953324 England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon.AG:I3044.AG__AD_1094__ Cov_65.21%
0.03960935 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_grt036.SG__AD_1080__Cov_83.72 %
0.03979129 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:IBE-106.SG__AD_1050__Cov_67.57%
0.03985977 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:IBE-116.SG__AD_1050__Cov_88.31%
0.04006856 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35008.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.91%
0.04007909 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:MH-153.SG__AD_1050__Cov_91.10%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0618
0.03582074 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35010.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.92%
0.03626156 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS103__AD_1050__Cov_66 .67%
0.03639795 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.03647909 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval.AG:I19561.AG__AD_1248__ Cov_43.65%
0.03729111 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.03802221 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:gam872.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.91%
0.04201567 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.04221985 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:enb508.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.59%
0.04231927 Russia_Viking.SG:VK272.SG__AD_1000__Cov_20.09%
0.04233205 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.04247096 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.04250032 England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon.AG:I3044.AG__AD_1094__ Cov_65.21%
0.04256889 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN013.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_57.22%
0.04273322 Hungary_Zalavár_Medieval:AHS68__AD_1100__Cov_71.28 %
0.04287637 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35095.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.76%
0.04300881 Russia_Viking.SG:VK219.SG__AD_1000__Cov_82.14%
0.04338992 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.04342997 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN014.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_67.84%
0.04364786 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002__AD_1255__Cov_43.3 8%
0.04369941 England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon.AG:S3044__AD_1094__Cov _65.21%
0.04414676 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.04432846 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_grt036.SG__AD_1080__Cov_83.72 %
0.04453917 Sweden_north_Medieval.SG:wes005.SG__AD_1139__Cov_9 5.16%
0.04492962 Russia_Gorokhovets_Medieval.AG:GOS002.AG__AD_1111_ _Cov_33.66%
0.04508092 Denmark_Medieval.SG:CGG100507.SG__AD_1175__Cov_26. 29%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0617
0.03753935 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.03766472 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.04148082 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK309.SG__AD_1050__Cov_28.34%
0.04226464 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_grt036.SG__AD_1080__Cov_83.72 %
0.04239233 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35095.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.76%
0.04302513 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN012.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_77.36%
0.04314136 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35014.TW__AD_1125__Cov_3 1.46%
0.04325994 Russia_Viking.SG:VK273.SG__AD_1000__Cov_67.28%
0.04379715 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.04392653 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA005__AD_1214__Cov_73.6 3%
0.04411961 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002__AD_1255__Cov_43.3 8%
0.04447596 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0198.SG__AD_1171__Cov_17.67%
0.04452733 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval.AG:I19561.AG__AD_1248__ Cov_43.65%
0.04524115 Russia_Viking.SG:VK219.SG__AD_1000__Cov_82.14%
0.04561097 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus.SG:VK541.SG__AD_1250__Cov_92. 59%
0.04600491 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.04602024 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35010.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.92%
0.04607931 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS103__AD_1050__Cov_66 .67%
0.04609056 Poland_Viking.SG:VK156.SG__AD_1000__Cov_63.49%
0.04612957 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I34980.TW__AD_1166__Cov_9 6.06%
0.04631105 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS174W__AD_1000__Cov_57.55%
0.04643715 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN008.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_54.94%
0.04667913 Denmark_Medieval.SG:CGG101855.SG__AD_1150__Cov_25. 83%
0.04692507 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:enb508.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.59%
0.04712261 Poland_Viking.SG:VK154.SG__AD_1000__Cov_94.86%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0574B
0.05024579 Hungary_Abasar_Aba_Medieval:HUAS85__AD_1100__Cov_7 4.76%
0.05028288 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus.SG:VK541.SG__AD_1250__Cov_92. 59%
0.05179409 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.05380472 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:AHPS103__AD_1050__Cov_66 .67%
0.05417716 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA005__AD_1214__Cov_73.6 3%
0.05434968 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35010.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.92%
0.05452397 Russia_Viking.SG:VK19.SG__AD_1050__Cov_48.43%
0.05458576 Poland_Markowice_IA_contam.SG:PCA0158.SG__AD_1100_ _Cov_26.84%
0.05499929 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0332.SG__AD_1100__C ov_23.09%
0.05511469 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0343.SG__AD_1100__C ov_28.92%
0.05514263 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0185.SG__AD_1100__Cov_10.11%
0.05536818 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.05559139 BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval.AG:I19561.AG__AD_1248__ Cov_43.65%
0.05559396 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009__AD_1206__Cov_66.3 6%
0.05587511 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.05644230 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_o.SG:VK542.SG__AD_1050 __Cov_71.62%
0.05683493 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002__AD_1255__Cov_43.3 8%
0.05715141 Hungary_SoutheasternTransdanubia_EarlyHungarian:AH PS174W__AD_1000__Cov_57.55%
0.05727222 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%
0.05764630 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35095.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 5.76%
0.05776433 Hungary_Zalavár_Medieval:AHS68__AD_1100__Cov_71.28 %
0.05808945 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK466.SG__AD_1000__Cov_13.17%
0.05816477 Hungary_Árpád_Ladislaus_I:SZTL__AD_1040__Cov_99.94 %
0.05847160 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.05849490 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160.SG__AD_1100__Cov_84.03%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0574
0.04935747 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:enb508.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.59%
0.05174639 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_84005.SG__AD_1050__Cov_64.52%
0.05240358 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK404.SG__AD_1050__Cov_78.20%
0.05367129 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:gor164.SG__AD_1050__ Cov_99.36%
0.05438496 Russia_Viking.SG:VK273.SG__AD_1000__Cov_67.28%
0.05525198 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:vls696.SG__AD_1094__ Cov_32.37%
0.05539041 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking.SG:VK539.SG__AD_1050__ Cov_83.44%
0.05713365 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_stg021.SG__AD_1031__Cov_94.54 %
0.05717690 Germany_Schleswig_LateMedieval_Saxon.AG:SWG009.A.A G__AD_1100__Cov_19.19%
0.05724166 Russia_Viking.SG:VK220.SG__AD_1050__Cov_86.78%
0.05758197 Denmark_Medieval.SG:CGG101855.SG__AD_1150__Cov_25. 83%
0.05775837 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0408.SG__AD_1100__Cov_8.86%
0.05782723 Norway_Viking.SG:VK388.SG__AD_1150__Cov_66.45%
0.05787129 Sweden_Gotland_Late_Viking.SG:hav001.SG__AD_1050__ Cov_93.69%
0.05800297 Iceland_Viking.SG:VK98.SG__AD_1100__Cov_87.64%
0.05812145 Sweden_Viking.SG:vik_grt036.SG__AD_1080__Cov_83.72 %
0.05834068 Ukraine_Medieval_Rus_Viking_1d.rel.VK539.SG:VK540. SG__AD_1050__Cov_62.72%
0.05885357 Sweden_north_Late_Viking.SG:wes056.SG__AD_1085__Co v_92.55%
0.05921665 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK306.SG__AD_1050__Cov_69.60%
0.05927478 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK308.SG__AD_1050__Cov_80.80%
0.05943453 Sweden_central_Late_Viking.SG:gam872.SG__AD_1025__ Cov_99.91%
0.05949413 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK334.SG__AD_1057__Cov_43.09%
0.05957608 Iceland_Viking.SG:VK227.SG__AD_1100__Cov_43.19%
0.05977926 Sweden_north_Late_Viking.SG:frc007.SG__AD_1050__Co v_99.93%
0.05980992 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK217.SG__AD_1000__Cov_14.04%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0573
0.03747349 Hungary_Árpád_Béla_III:HU3B__AD_1148__Cov_95.34%
0.03769890 Russia_Viking.SG:VK219.SG__AD_1000__Cov_82.14%
0.04029105 Croatia_EarlyMedieval.TW:I35012.TW__AD_1125__Cov_9 3.03%
0.04077271 Netherlands_Groningen_Medieval_Saxon_1d.rel.GRO015 .A.AG:GRO016.A.AG__AD_1000__Cov_72.07%
0.04083203 England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon.AG:I3044.AG__AD_1094__ Cov_65.21%
0.04098602 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN002.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_48.82%
0.04104979 Norway_Viking.SG:VK414.SG__AD_1000__Cov_73.80%
0.04167396 Sweden_north_Medieval.SG:wes005.SG__AD_1139__Cov_9 5.16%
0.04185890 Sweden_north_Medieval.SG:wes004.SG__AD_1139__Cov_9 9.87%
0.04190832 England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon.AG:S3044__AD_1094__Cov _65.21%
0.04192398 Netherlands_Groningen_Medieval_Saxon.AG:GRO015.A.A G__AD_1000__Cov_73.21%
0.04199253 Ireland_Kilteasheen_EarlyMedieval_AngloSaxon_Norma n.AG:KIL041.B.AG__AD_1000__Cov_57.99%
0.04208057 Hungary_EarlyArpadian.SG:PLE-384.SG__AD_1080__Cov_87.11%
0.04213566 Iceland_Viking.SG:VK98.SG__AD_1100__Cov_87.64%
0.04228744 Germany_Schleswig_LateMedieval_Saxon.AG:SWG001.A.A G__AD_1150__Cov_78.00%
0.04298975 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN012.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_77.36%
0.04335796 Germany_Schleswig_LateMedieval_Saxon.AG:SWG009.A.A G__AD_1100__Cov_19.19%
0.04376125 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK402.SG__AD_1050__Cov_80.15%
0.04403014 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR196__AD_125 0__Cov_70.02%
0.04414950 Denmark_Zealand_Medieval_Saxon.AG:KPN001.A.AG__AD_ 1050__Cov_60.74%
0.04424879 Iceland_Viking.SG:VK227.SG__AD_1100__Cov_43.19%
0.04444836 Norway_Viking.SG:VK388.SG__AD_1150__Cov_66.45%
0.04446221 Germany_Petersberg_VA:KH150005__AD_1068__Cov_91.18 %
0.04465798 Sweden_Viking_1d.rel.VK406.SG:VK33.SG__AD_1050__Co v_64.68%
0.04476705 Belgium_StRombout_Cemetery_Medieval:STR248__AD_119 2__Cov_58.30%

Distance to: Polish:PCA0251
0.02990717 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160.SG__AD_1100__Cov_84.03%
0.03212047 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6.SG__AD_1137__C ov_99.10%
0.03284509 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA002__AD_1255__Cov_43.3 8%
0.03301313 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA005__AD_1214__Cov_73.6 3%
0.03334437 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK309.SG__AD_1050__Cov_28.34%
0.03345328 Poland_Viking.SG:VK156.SG__AD_1000__Cov_63.49%
0.03357686 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA011__AD_1099__Cov_65.2 9%
0.03391277 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA007__AD_1209__Cov_44.6 2%
0.03451452 Poland_Legowo_IA.SG:PCA0167.SG__AD_1100__Cov_31.10 %
0.03511174 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA006__AD_1242__Cov_58.5 2%
0.03554771 Poland_Viking.SG:VK154.SG__AD_1000__Cov_94.86%
0.03560871 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK397.SG__AD_1050__Cov_77.27%
0.03623126 Poland_Dziekanowice_IA.SG:PCA0354.SG__AD_1100__Cov _52.28%
0.03641032 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0203.SG__AD_1100__Cov_11.67%
0.03663506 Poland_Lad_IA.SG:PCA0187.SG__AD_1100__Cov_13.25%
0.03664314 Poland_Plonsk_IA.SG:PCA0317.SG__AD_1100__Cov_27.42 %
0.03675132 Germany_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009__AD_1206__Cov_66.3 6%
0.03676940 Poland_Santok_IA.SG:PCA0399.SG__AD_1100__Cov_18.55 %
0.03783741 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0344.SG__AD_1100__C ov_36.39%
0.03791117 Poland_OstrowLednicki_IA.SG:PCA0343.SG__AD_1100__C ov_28.92%
0.03811217 Ukraine_Lviv_WhiteCroat_Slavs_Medieval:UKR166__AD_ 1200__Cov_66.09%
0.03828300 Russia_Viking.SG:VK272.SG__AD_1000__Cov_20.09%
0.03834737 Poland_Viking.SG:VK157.SG__AD_1000__Cov_56.56%
0.03846524 Poland_Markowice_IA_contam.SG:PCA0158.SG__AD_1100_ _Cov_26.84%
0.03868958 Hungary_Visegrád_Medieval:LAHPS75__AD_1050__Cov_59 .87%

rothaer

06-03-2025, 08:02 PM

The composition of the cremated population of the Przeworsk culture remains entirely unknown. Among the individuals from Gąski, one has the profile of a continental Celt, while the other appears to be of insular Celtic origin.

Well, even in Central Germany you had not cremated Haßleben Germanics forming a nobility cemetary and exhibiting textbook rich Elbe Germanic material culture (Haßleben-Leuna Gruppe) and they were very "Celtic" not to say "French" in their genetics. These folks were doubtlessly ethnically Germanic from all historical and archeological definitions.

What I want to say is that we have to consider the existence of such Germanics.

Germanen_Haßleben:R11867___AD_450___Coverage_34.81 %,0.135449,0.140143,0.056568,0.013889,0.041546,0.0 03626,0.00423,0.012461,0.009817,0.020046,0.007795, 0.004346,-0.007136,-0.006606,0.018187,0.007823,0.001956,0.015456,-0.001508,0.00075,0.007612,0.013849,-0.005546,0.005181,0.007185
Germanen_Haßleben:R11868___AD_450___Coverage_58.35 %,0.126344,0.140143,0.053928,0.027778,0.048932,0.0 08367,-0.003055,0.002769,0.017998,0.023691,-0.006496,0.013788,-0.01442,-0.016102,0.008279,0.014054,0.014081,-0.003547,0.003142,0.008129,0.007362,0.003586,-0.001479,0.009519,-0.005389
Germanen_Haßleben:R11872___AD_450___Coverage_47.74 %,0.126344,0.157407,0.049026,-0.002907,0.045239,-0.004183,0.00752,-0.001385,0.01718,0.034807,-0.004709,0.013188,-0.012339,-0.01101,0.004207,-0.007027,-0.016428,-0.000507,0.002388,0.001626,-0.000125,0.003833,-0.003081,-0.008314,0.003233
Germanen_Haßleben:R11873___AD_450___Coverage_46.48 %,0.129758,0.146236,0.046009,0.022287,0.041854,0.0 10598,-0.00517,0.004615,0.011453,0.026242,-0.001949,0.009142,-0.015758,-0.014313,0.007057,-0.009149,-0.017211,-0.004054,0.003897,-0.011506,-0.004243,-0.002968,-0.00419,0.002048,0.002634

cass

06-03-2025, 08:12 PM

Peterski

06-03-2025, 08:12 PM

From another forum:

“PIAST02 dated to 1113, with an estimated age of 40 years, would perfectly match Zbigniew, the first-born son of Wladyslaw Herman and his first Polish wife, Przeclawa.”

rothaer

06-03-2025, 08:15 PM

1. This is probably an oversimplification. The Piast dynasty’s family connections included all neighboring Christian peoples. Among the wives of the Piasts were Přemyslids, Rurikids, Ascanians, Gediminids, and Wettins. It is difficult to determine who exactly was buried in the other graves of the cathedrals in Płock and Kraków. They could possibly have been clergymen.

Yes.

2. These individuals were probably buried with Viking equipment. Like those in Bodzia, they were likely Rurikids."

In one paper - I don't recall which one - I made the effort to have a look for the archeological context of seqenced individuals. The assignment to a social group Vikings was pretty difficult. Because it was hard to tell whether the material culture of grave goods was something inherited or just acquired by trade. In particular the weaponry of Vikings was traded to quite everyone that wanted to have good and prestigious weapons. I recall that I could not even determine a separate group of folks with obviously Scandinavian heritage and it was all more of a cline. Unfortunately.

Albannach

06-03-2025, 08:19 PM

Interesting! However, it has been found among 5th - 6th century Picts in ancient DNA.

Maybe it was present in Ireland too, we don't have Iron Age samples from Ireland yet.

Has it? First I have heard that. I am a member of the L1335 FTDNA group, and I've never seen anyone mention any ancient samples, In fact, there's still a lot of discourse on whether L1335 or more specifically, L1065 is Pictish or Gaelic or even Cumbric in origin.

rothaer

06-03-2025, 08:22 PM

It is possible to check this, but I would rather do so with K36, as G25 has limited resolution when it comes to distinguishing Celts from Germanic populations.

I only have G25 data for these individuals.

cass

06-03-2025, 08:26 PM

Well, even in Central Germany you had not cremated Haßleben Germanics forming a nobility cemetary and exhibiting textbook rich Elbe Germanic material culture (Haßleben-Leuna Gruppe) and they were very "Celtic" not to say "French" in their genetics. These folks were doubtlessly ethnically Germanic from all historical and archeological definitions.

What I want to say is that we have to consider the existence of such Germanics.

Germanen_Haßleben:R11867___AD_450___Coverage_34.81 %,0.135449,0.140143,0.056568,0.013889,0.041546,0.0 03626,0.00423,0.012461,0.009817,0.020046,0.007795, 0.004346,-0.007136,-0.006606,0.018187,0.007823,0.001956,0.015456,-0.001508,0.00075,0.007612,0.013849,-0.005546,0.005181,0.007185
Germanen_Haßleben:R11868___AD_450___Coverage_58.35 %,0.126344,0.140143,0.053928,0.027778,0.048932,0.0 08367,-0.003055,0.002769,0.017998,0.023691,-0.006496,0.013788,-0.01442,-0.016102,0.008279,0.014054,0.014081,-0.003547,0.003142,0.008129,0.007362,0.003586,-0.001479,0.009519,-0.005389
Germanen_Haßleben:R11872___AD_450___Coverage_47.74 %,0.126344,0.157407,0.049026,-0.002907,0.045239,-0.004183,0.00752,-0.001385,0.01718,0.034807,-0.004709,0.013188,-0.012339,-0.01101,0.004207,-0.007027,-0.016428,-0.000507,0.002388,0.001626,-0.000125,0.003833,-0.003081,-0.008314,0.003233
Germanen_Haßleben:R11873___AD_450___Coverage_46.48 %,0.129758,0.146236,0.046009,0.022287,0.041854,0.0 10598,-0.00517,0.004615,0.011453,0.026242,-0.001949,0.009142,-0.015758,-0.014313,0.007057,-0.009149,-0.017211,-0.004054,0.003897,-0.011506,-0.004243,-0.002968,-0.00419,0.002048,0.002634

Even the most western-shifted Piast Piast?:PCA0573B sample shows greater similarity to the Celts from Gąski or even to the Picts, than to the Germanic sample from Haßleben.

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0573B
0.04150935 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0111__AD_300__Cov_11.59%
0.04273888 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0059__AD_200__Cov_78.42%
0.04475526 Poland_Gaski_IA:PCA0011__BC_50__Cov_28.25%
0.04903514 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0063__AD_200__Cov_28.45%
0.04972190 Scotland_Pict_EMA:BAL003.merged__AD_478__Cov_unkno wn
0.04974238 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10631.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_44.50%
0.04982647 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.04986427 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0046__AD_200__Cov_81.13%
0.05157803 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10618.SG_ _AD_161__Cov_55.41%
0.05215768 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0060__AD_200__Cov_71.91%
0.05217713 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0498__AD_200__Cov_14. 98%
0.05229219 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0040__AD_200__Cov_17.76%
0.05253224 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0479__AD_200__Cov_14. 63%
0.05291113 Germanen_Haßleben:R11868___AD_450___Coverage_58.35 %
0.05330691 Poland_Gaski_IA_oEEF:PCA0012__BC_50__Cov_18.40%
0.05525405 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10634.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_60.11%
0.05531125 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0028__AD_200__Cov_39.89%
0.05532763 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0092__AD_300__Cov_32.64%
0.05593160 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0030__AD_200__Cov_35.75%
0.05636841 Scotland_Viking_o.SG:VK201.SG__AD_490__Cov_78.49%
0.05645977 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0472__AD_200__Cov_10. 55%
0.05680788 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0114__AD_300__Cov_12.75%
0.05705589 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0052__AD_200__Cov_13.55%
0.05717147 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0089__AD_300__Cov_30.27%
0.05782135 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0062__AD_200__Cov_27.16%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0657
0.08499871 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0049__AD_200__Cov_12.24%
0.08579791 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0062__AD_200__Cov_27.16%
0.08585265 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0092__AD_300__Cov_32.64%
0.08640948 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
0.08674441 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0102__AD_300__Cov_14.17%
0.08713752 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0031__AD_200__Cov_15.83%
0.08745276 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0027__AD_200__Cov_26.91%
0.08842046 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0111__AD_300__Cov_11.59%
0.08967536 Poland_Gaski_IA:PCA0011__BC_50__Cov_28.25%
0.09017337 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0063__AD_200__Cov_28.45%
0.09070759 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0052__AD_200__Cov_13.55%
0.09094558 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0059__AD_200__Cov_78.42%
0.09160483 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10631.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_44.50%
0.09193406 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0046__AD_200__Cov_81.13%
0.09207853 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10636.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_56.81%
0.09262456 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0089__AD_300__Cov_30.27%
0.09342108 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0065__AD_200__Cov_11.62%
0.09350734 Germanen_Haßleben:R11867___AD_450___Coverage_34.81 %
0.09391829 Scotland_Pict_EMA:BAL003.merged__AD_478__Cov_unkno wn
0.09415281 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0060__AD_200__Cov_71.91%
0.09450060 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.09478846 Poland_Gaski_IA_oEEF:PCA0012__BC_50__Cov_18.40%
0.09498548 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0030__AD_200__Cov_35.75%
0.09554825 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0028__AD_200__Cov_39.89%
0.09555101 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0044__AD_200__Cov_10.79%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0648
0.06714570 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
0.07022199 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0065__AD_200__Cov_11.62%
0.07462776 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0102__AD_300__Cov_14.17%
0.07482611 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0062__AD_200__Cov_27.16%
0.07593170 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0049__AD_200__Cov_12.24%
0.08030609 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0052__AD_200__Cov_13.55%
0.08032972 Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VIII9_1_noUDG.SG__AD_137__ Cov_15.65%
0.08092031 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0100__AD_300__Cov_91.51%
0.08261489 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R11391.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_38.00%
0.08385920 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0027__AD_200__Cov_26.91%
0.08454626 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0486__AD_200__Cov_17. 03%
0.08573297 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0498__AD_200__Cov_14. 98%
0.08606809 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0114__AD_300__Cov_12.75%
0.08609188 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10636.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_56.81%
0.08732822 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10634.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_60.11%
0.08733997 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0026__AD_200__Cov_19.49%
0.08754124 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0089__AD_300__Cov_30.27%
0.08774090 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0092__AD_300__Cov_32.64%
0.08994567 Scotland_Viking.SG:VK203.SG__AD_361__Cov_75.62%
0.08996100 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0046__AD_200__Cov_81.13%
0.09009629 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0111__AD_300__Cov_11.59%
0.09010365 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0044__AD_200__Cov_10.79%
0.09010366 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0050__AD_200__Cov_12.34%
0.09011246 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.09041033 Poland_Pruszcz_Gdanski_IA:PCA0479__AD_200__Cov_14. 63%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0660
0.07076298 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
0.07453214 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0049__AD_200__Cov_12.24%
0.07506529 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0102__AD_300__Cov_14.17%
0.07932219 Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VIII9_1_noUDG.SG__AD_137__ Cov_15.65%
0.08065183 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0065__AD_200__Cov_11.62%
0.08138329 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0062__AD_200__Cov_27.16%
0.08504505 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R11391.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_38.00%
0.08685749 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0046__AD_200__Cov_81.13%
0.08688320 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0027__AD_200__Cov_26.91%
0.08762552 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0092__AD_300__Cov_32.64%
0.08776159 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0050__AD_200__Cov_12.34%
0.08848718 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0094__AD_300__Cov_27.65%
0.08869419 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10636.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_56.81%
0.08877376 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0089__AD_300__Cov_30.27%
0.08894388 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.09005563 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0063__AD_200__Cov_28.45%
0.09034913 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0031__AD_200__Cov_15.83%
0.09057264 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0111__AD_300__Cov_11.59%
0.09143392 Poland_Gaski_IA:PCA0011__BC_50__Cov_28.25%
0.09164730 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10634.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_60.11%
0.09167278 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10626.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_50.85%
0.09167722 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0052__AD_200__Cov_13.55%
0.09186805 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0114__AD_300__Cov_12.75%
0.09232155 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0040__AD_200__Cov_17.76%
0.09264154 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0060__AD_200__Cov_71.91%

Distance to: Piast?:PCA0252B
0.06518175 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0027__AD_200__Cov_26.91%
0.06615710 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103__AD_300__C ov_74.27%
0.06679837 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0046__AD_200__Cov_81.13%
0.06731124 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0060__AD_200__Cov_71.91%
0.06821885 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0088__AD_300__Cov_29.37%
0.06844103 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10625.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_55.73%
0.07039755 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10636.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_56.81%
0.07112156 Russia_IA_Ingria.SG:s19_VIII9_1_noUDG.SG__AD_137__ Cov_15.65%
0.07172741 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0031__AD_200__Cov_15.83%
0.07214653 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0028__AD_200__Cov_39.89%
0.07306060 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0059__AD_200__Cov_78.42%
0.07377050 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0089__AD_300__Cov_30.27%
0.07385756 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0018__AD_200__Cov_11.50%
0.07387995 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0050__AD_200__Cov_12.34%
0.07413437 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0049__AD_200__Cov_12.24%
0.07491684 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0094__AD_300__Cov_27.65%
0.07521974 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10633.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_61.62%
0.07539257 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0063__AD_200__Cov_28.45%
0.07566668 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0092__AD_300__Cov_32.64%
0.07762809 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0062__AD_200__Cov_27.16%
0.07871290 Poland_Maslomecz_IA:PCA0102__AD_300__Cov_14.17%
0.07881902 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10631.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_44.50%
0.07938227 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10634.SG_ _AD_75__Cov_60.11%
0.08016698 Poland_Kowalewko_IA:PCA0040__AD_200__Cov_17.76%
0.08044142 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG:R10618.SG_ _AD_161__Cov_55.41%

Intuitively, I would say they are probably not steppe enough.

Peterski

06-03-2025, 08:26 PM

I can check K36 results, just post a list of samples for which you want K36 data.

Has it? First I have heard that. I am a member of the L1335 FTDNA group, and I've never seen anyone mention any ancient samples, In fact, there's still a lot of discourse on whether L1335 or more specifically, L1065 is Pictish or Gaelic or even Cumbric in origin.

Figlerowicz claimed that there is an ancient Pict with this subclade. But I didn't ask him about sample ID, unfortunately.

cass

06-03-2025, 08:33 PM

Yes.

In one paper - I don't recall which one - I made the effort to have a look for the archeological context of seqenced individuals. The assignment to a social group Vikings was pretty difficult. Because it was hard to tell whether the material culture of grave goods was something inherited or just acquired by trade. In particular the weaponry of Vikings was traded to quite everyone that wanted to have good and prestigious weapons. I recall that I could not even determine a separate group of folks with obviously Scandinavian heritage and it was all more of a cline. Unfortunately.

Indeed — this likely accounts for the numerous VK burials in Scandinavia of individuals whose genetic origins lie across the Baltic.
The presumed Rurikids from Bodzia had already been assimilated in Rus' for 100 years.

cass

06-03-2025, 08:35 PM

I can check K36 results, just post a list of samples for which you want K36 data.

Ideally, all of the Piasts — especially the oldest one.

Peterski

06-03-2025, 08:38 PM

Ideally, all of the Piasts — especially the oldest one.

Can you list sample IDs?

rothaer

06-03-2025, 08:41 PM

Yes it is uncertain if the Przeworsk culture (associated with the Lugians) was ever Germanized or not.

Prof. Gosciwit Malinowski thinks that the Vandals were never present in Przeworsk culture territory.

So maybe Slavs actually assimilated Celts (not Germanics) in southern Poland.

There are always some fringe theories. This is why I referred to the "common perception".

There are no folks or tribes recorded in the context of the migrations of East Germanics that were Celts. The last ones were the Cotini that were mentioned in the Moravia area at the time of the Marcomannic wars (abt. 166 AD). The Bastarnae may have been Celtic or half Celtic / half Germanic or Germanic but they were before the turn of times. Undisputedly the Przeworsk culture - let it equal Vandals or not - is full of Celtic-like material culture. But that can not make visible whether they were Germanised or not. Btw. the Germanic name stem rich, like in Thiudareiks > Theoderich > Dietrich is a Celtic loan, cf. Vercingetorix etx. that first occured among East Germanics. All together points at notable assimilation of Celts among East Germanics.

In my opinion, this is visible in Silesia and Greater Poland.

How can be visible whether the Celtic-like DNA came into Slavs via at that time Celtic speaking people or Germanic speaking people?

cass

06-03-2025, 08:53 PM

How can be visible whether the Celtic-like DNA came into Slavs via at that time Celtic speaking people or Germanic speaking people?

With the methods currently available to us, the chances are probably small. We have no clear idea when, or even if, the Celts became Germanized in Bohemia and Silesia. To the Romans, everything north of the Alps was considered Germania.

rothaer

06-03-2025, 08:56 PM

Indeed — this likely accounts for the numerous VK burials in Scandinavia of individuals whose genetic origins lie across the Baltic.
The presumed Rurikids from Bodzia had already been assimilated in Rus' for 100 years.

Yes, but be careful with this partly very confusing VK labelling! I've been annoyed by this many times.

As for the Sigtuna individuals, the archaeological finds are from the 10th to 12th century.

‘We present genome-wide sequence data from 23 individuals from the 10th to 12th century Swedish town of Sigtuna.’

see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982218308443

The Viking Age is known to have ended in 1066. If the finds were evenly distributed over the period - we don't know - about half of them would not date from the Viking Age at all.

And on the other hand, a large proportion of the finds analysed are not indigenous.

"The data revealed high genetic diversity among the early urban residents. The observed variation exceeds the genetic diversity in distinct modern-day and Iron Age groups of central and northern Europe. Strontium isotope data suggest mixed local and non-local origin of the townspeople."

"The Sigtuna individuals were widely distributed, with most falling within modern-day variation of Northern Europeans, with the majority of individuals encompassing genomic variation of modern-day individuals from Norway, the North Atlantic Islands, and England. Some samples show stronger tendencies towards modern Eastern, Western, and Central Europeans instead of Northern European populations (Figures 2A and 3)."

Thus, the following finds have an obvious similarity to modern populations:

Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001 NORWEGIAN-COSSACK-SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005 FINNISH-GERMAN_EAST-BALTIC
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002 GERMAN-AUSTRIAN-SLOVAKIAN-DUTCH-WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035 ORCADIAN-WELSH-NORWEGIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006 LATVIAN-ESTONIAN-FINNISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kal009 OUTLIER LATVIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001 ICELANDIC_ENGLISH_WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002 ORCADIAN-GERMAN_EAST-Swedish
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020 INGRIAN-RUSSIAN_SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021 ORCADIAN-CORNISH-GERMAN_EAST
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026 SWEDISH-SLOVAKIAN-COSSACK
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH

It is recognisably a long-distance trading town with merchants from all over, similar to Wisby on Gotland. This also relates to the time period. From German Wikipedia, translated:

"Visby developed into the leading trading port of the Baltic region in the middle of the 12th century.[8] A trade agreement between Visby and Novgorod can be assumed as early as the previous century.[9] Gotland travellers, i.e. merchants travelling to Visby, are first documented among the Russians and Danes: At least one Russian merchant church in Visby (St Olav[9]) and a mention in the Novgorod Chronicle speak in favour of the Russians; the presence of the Danes is documented by a letter of privilege from the Danish King Waldemar the Great (see Knudsgilde).[7] German merchants are only to be assumed in larger numbers later - after 1161.[9]"

cass

06-03-2025, 08:57 PM

Can you list sample IDs?

I’m not even sure whether the samples on genarchivist.net have been labeled correctly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?395595-Genetic-portrait-of-Piast-Dynasty&p=8239957&viewfull=1#post8239957

cass

06-03-2025, 09:04 PM

Yes, but be careful with this partly very confusing VK labelling! I've been annoyed by this many times.

As for the Sigtuna individuals, the archaeological finds are from the 10th to 12th century.

‘We present genome-wide sequence data from 23 individuals from the 10th to 12th century Swedish town of Sigtuna.’

see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982218308443

The Viking Age is known to have ended in 1066. If the finds were evenly distributed over the period - we don't know - about half of them would not date from the Viking Age at all.

And on the other hand, a large proportion of the finds analysed are not indigenous.

"The data revealed high genetic diversity among the early urban residents. The observed variation exceeds the genetic diversity in distinct modern-day and Iron Age groups of central and northern Europe. Strontium isotope data suggest mixed local and non-local origin of the townspeople."

"The Sigtuna individuals were widely distributed, with most falling within modern-day variation of Northern Europeans, with the majority of individuals encompassing genomic variation of modern-day individuals from Norway, the North Atlantic Islands, and England. Some samples show stronger tendencies towards modern Eastern, Western, and Central Europeans instead of Northern European populations (Figures 2A and 3)."

Thus, the following finds have an obvious similarity to modern populations:

Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001 NORWEGIAN-COSSACK-SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005 FINNISH-GERMAN_EAST-BALTIC
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002 GERMAN-AUSTRIAN-SLOVAKIAN-DUTCH-WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035 ORCADIAN-WELSH-NORWEGIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006 LATVIAN-ESTONIAN-FINNISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kal009 OUTLIER LATVIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001 ICELANDIC_ENGLISH_WELSH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002 ORCADIAN-GERMAN_EAST-Swedish
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020 INGRIAN-RUSSIAN_SLOVAKIAN
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021 ORCADIAN-CORNISH-GERMAN_EAST
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026 SWEDISH-SLOVAKIAN-COSSACK
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160 COSSACK-NORWEGIAN-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021 ICELANDIC-FINISH-SWEDISH
Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036 CZECH-HUNGARIAN-SWEDISH

It is recognisably a long-distance trading town with merchants from all over, similar to Wisby on Gotland. This also relates to the time period. From German Wikipedia, translated:

"Visby developed into the leading trading port of the Baltic region in the middle of the 12th century.[8] A trade agreement between Visby and Novgorod can be assumed as early as the previous century.[9] Gotland travellers, i.e. merchants travelling to Visby, are first documented among the Russians and Danes: At least one Russian merchant church in Visby (St Olav[9]) and a mention in the Novgorod Chronicle speak in favour of the Russians; the presence of the Danes is documented by a letter of privilege from the Danish King Waldemar the Great (see Knudsgilde).[7] German merchants are only to be assumed in larger numbers later - after 1161.[9]"

I believe they were included in the database based on certain assumptions from study Population genomics of the Viking world.

I’m fully aware that this is a somewhat arbitrary designation."

Peterski

06-03-2025, 09:05 PM

I’m not even sure whether the samples on genarchivist.net have been labeled correctly.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?395595-Genetic-portrait-of-Piast-Dynasty&p=8239957&viewfull=1#post8239957

K36 of samples from your link:

PCA0252B,2.69,0,0,0.75,0,3.14,0.52,0,0.20,0,23.87, 0,9.17,31.82,5.17,0,0,0,0,0,0,17.31,0,3.56,0,1.82, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
PCA0660,0,0.33,0,2.16,0,1.27,0,0,8.78,0,23.80,0,15 .07,10.58,4.15,3.72,0,0,3.26,0,0.31,6.49,13.97,2.3 9,0,0.15,0,0,0,0,1.85,0.35,0,0,1.38,0
PCA0648,0,0,3.10,6.41,0,0.96,0.49,0,4.32,0,18.15,0 ,2.81,21.94,10.71,0,0,1.18,0.31,0,0,12.88,0,4.91,0 ,0,2.52,0.14,0,2.90,2.08,1.77,2.41,0,0,0.01
PCA0657,0,0,7.22,6.28,0,10.67,0,0,8.64,4.08,4.78,0 ,25.76,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.44,0,0,18.41,0,0,0.23,0,0,0 ,0,0,4.29,0,1.06,6.14
PCA0573B,0,0.15,0,0,0,14.88,0,0,1.42,0,13.75,0,0.0 6,14.51,16.09,2.37,0,12.04,0,0,3.68,10.17,0,7.81,0 ,0,1.13,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.93,0
PCA0251,0.28,0,0,0,0.05,7.98,0,0,9.17,0,22.68,0,21 .82,10.42,7.11,1.89,0,0,0,0,0,6.66,0,9.78,0,0,0,0. 25,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.92
PCA0573,0,0,0,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.11,0,13.99,0,3.35,20. 70,14.81,11.22,0,2.29,0,6.35,0.76,10.21,0,13.76,0, 0.47,0,0.34,0,0,0.72,0,0.79,0,0,0
PCA0574,0,0,0,4.74,0,18.39,0,0,0.14,0,10.37,0,20.6 7,1.73,1.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,18.52,0,21.11,0,0,2.10,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.07
PCA0574B,0,0,0,0,0,10.70,0,0,7.93,0,16.34,0,10.34, 8.35,8.54,5.44,0,4.54,0,0,0,14.33,0.18,4.45,0,0,0, 0,0,2.54,1.74,0,1.63,2.92,0,0
PCA0617,0,0,0,0,0.16,10.31,0,0,0,0,19.17,0,9.88,14 .01,10.30,1.58,0,9.81,0,0.79,4.60,3.63,0,12.70,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.06,0,0,0
PCA0618,0.40,0,3.66,5.26,0,7.20,0,0,6.97,0,24.45,0 ,2.01,9.38,0.45,11.96,0,0,0,0,0,11.26,0,13.46,0,0, 0,0,1.38,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15
PCA0620,0,0,2.32,0,0,11.00,0,0,5.23,0,12.81,0,9.82 ,6.69,4.73,6.64,0,4.59,0,0,0,10.64,4.02,17.20,0,1. 07,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.25
PCA0643,0,0,0,3.07,0.86,4.89,0,0,3.49,0,12.68,0.96 ,4.41,7.45,14.61,0,0,6.21,0,0,0,0,15.00,11.22,0,0, 0,2.26,0,0,4.61,2.86,3.21,0,2.21,0
PCA0644,0.52,0,0,2.58,0,0.27,0,0,6.65,0,27.84,0,0. 77,21.51,13.01,4.09,0,0,0,0,0,7.63,0,4.62,0,0,0,0, 0,2.26,0.14,0,8.10,0,0,0
PCA0645,0.18,3.39,0,0,0,13.02,0,0,6.25,0,5.05,0,15 .37,17.53,0,2.60,0,0,0,0,0,14.37,6.76,9.29,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,2.42,0,3.03,0,0,0.75
PCA0649,1.20,0,0,2.55,0,5.90,0,0,0.07,0,22.60,0,11 .36,15.89,1.03,0,0,12.02,1.46,0,0,8.57,10.85,3.16, 0,0,0.96,0,0.16,0,2.22,0,0,0,0,0
PCA0663,0,0,0,2.07,0,13.64,0.25,0,18.07,0,17.71,0, 13.54,14.99,4.08,0,0,0,0,0,2.08,5.24,0,6.17,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15,0

cass

06-03-2025, 10:06 PM

With the methods currently available to us, the chances are probably small. We have no clear idea when, or even if, the Celts became Germanized in Bohemia and Silesia. To the Romans, everything north of the Alps was considered Germania.

According to Tacitus, at least in the 1st and probably also in the 2nd century, Gotini and Osi were distinguished by their Celtic language.

Cornelius Tacitus, Germany and its Tribes

The Narisci border on the Hermunduri, and then follow the Marcomanni and Quadi. The Marcomanni stand first in strength and renown, and their very territory, from which the Boii were driven in a former age, was won by valour. Nor are the Narisci and Quadi inferior to them. This I may call the frontier of Germany, so far as it is completed by the Danube. The Marcomanni and Quadi have, up to our time, been ruled by kings of their own nation, descended from the noble stock of Maroboduus and Tudrus. They now submit even to foreigners; but the strength and power of the monarch depend on Roman influence. He is occasionally supported by our arms, more frequently by our money, and his authority is none the less.
Behind them the Marsigni, Gotini, Osi, and Buri, close in the rear of the Marcomanni and Quadi. Of these, the Marsigni and Buri, in their language and manner of life, resemble the Suevi. The Gotini and Osi are proved by their respective Gallic and Pannonian tongues, as well as by the fact of their enduring tribute, not to be Germans. Tribute is imposed on them as aliens, partly by the Sarmatæ, partly by the Quadi. The Gotini, to complete their degradation, actually work iron mines. All these nations occupy but little of the plain country, dwelling in forests and on mountain-tops. For Suevia is divided and cut in half by a continuous mountain-range, beyond which live a multitude of tribes. The name of Ligii, spread as it is among many states, is the most widely extended. It will be enough to mention the most powerful, which are the Harii, the Helvecones, the Manimi, the Helisii and the Nahanarvali. Among these last is shown a grove of immemorial sanctity. A priest in female attire has the charge of it. But the deities are described in Roman language as Castor and Pollux. Such, indeed, are the attributes of the divinity, the name being Alcis. They have no images, or, indeed, any vestige of foreign superstition, but it is as brothers and as youths that the deities are worshipped. The Harii, besides being superior in strength to the tribes just enumerated, savage as they are, make the most of their natural ferocity by the help of art and opportunity. Their shields are black, their bodies dyed. They choose dark nights for battle, and, by the dread and gloomy aspect of their death-like host, strike terror into the foe, who can never confront their strange and almost infernal appearance. For in all battles it is the eye which is first vanquished.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3 D42

celticdragongod

06-03-2025, 11:11 PM

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.04672095 Polish:PCA0620
0.04761455 Piast?:PCA0573B
0.05073874 Polish:PCA0573
0.05293252 Polish:PCA0618
0.05899906 Polish:PCA0617
0.06500771 Polish:PCA0574
0.07381067 Polish:PCA0251
0.07623285 Polish:PCA0574B
0.07903795 Polish:PCA0649
0.08202476 Polish:PCA0645
0.08236171 Polish:PCA0663
0.08464583 Polish:PCA0644
0.08732387 Polish:PCA0643
0.08850921 Piast?:PCA0648
0.08912534 Piast?:PCA0657
0.09151024 Piast?:PCA0252B
0.09380843 Piast?:PCA0660

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 3.5860% / 0.03585974
34.4 Piast?:PCA0573B
24.8 Polish:PCA0620
18.6 Polish:PCA0574
12.6 Polish:PCA0618
9.6 Polish:PCA0573

celticdragongod

06-03-2025, 11:18 PM

K36 of samples from your link:

PCA0252B,2.69,0,0,0.75,0,3.14,0.52,0,0.20,0,23.87, 0,9.17,31.82,5.17,0,0,0,0,0,0,17.31,0,3.56,0,1.82, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
PCA0660,0,0.33,0,2.16,0,1.27,0,0,8.78,0,23.80,0,15 .07,10.58,4.15,3.72,0,0,3.26,0,0.31,6.49,13.97,2.3 9,0,0.15,0,0,0,0,1.85,0.35,0,0,1.38,0
PCA0648,0,0,3.10,6.41,0,0.96,0.49,0,4.32,0,18.15,0 ,2.81,21.94,10.71,0,0,1.18,0.31,0,0,12.88,0,4.91,0 ,0,2.52,0.14,0,2.90,2.08,1.77,2.41,0,0,0.01
PCA0657,0,0,7.22,6.28,0,10.67,0,0,8.64,4.08,4.78,0 ,25.76,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.44,0,0,18.41,0,0,0.23,0,0,0 ,0,0,4.29,0,1.06,6.14
PCA0573B,0,0.15,0,0,0,14.88,0,0,1.42,0,13.75,0,0.0 6,14.51,16.09,2.37,0,12.04,0,0,3.68,10.17,0,7.81,0 ,0,1.13,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.93,0
PCA0251,0.28,0,0,0,0.05,7.98,0,0,9.17,0,22.68,0,21 .82,10.42,7.11,1.89,0,0,0,0,0,6.66,0,9.78,0,0,0,0. 25,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.92
PCA0573,0,0,0,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.11,0,13.99,0,3.35,20. 70,14.81,11.22,0,2.29,0,6.35,0.76,10.21,0,13.76,0, 0.47,0,0.34,0,0,0.72,0,0.79,0,0,0
PCA0574,0,0,0,4.74,0,18.39,0,0,0.14,0,10.37,0,20.6 7,1.73,1.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,18.52,0,21.11,0,0,2.10,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.07
PCA0574B,0,0,0,0,0,10.70,0,0,7.93,0,16.34,0,10.34, 8.35,8.54,5.44,0,4.54,0,0,0,14.33,0.18,4.45,0,0,0, 0,0,2.54,1.74,0,1.63,2.92,0,0
PCA0617,0,0,0,0,0.16,10.31,0,0,0,0,19.17,0,9.88,14 .01,10.30,1.58,0,9.81,0,0.79,4.60,3.63,0,12.70,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.06,0,0,0
PCA0618,0.40,0,3.66,5.26,0,7.20,0,0,6.97,0,24.45,0 ,2.01,9.38,0.45,11.96,0,0,0,0,0,11.26,0,13.46,0,0, 0,0,1.38,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15
PCA0620,0,0,2.32,0,0,11.00,0,0,5.23,0,12.81,0,9.82 ,6.69,4.73,6.64,0,4.59,0,0,0,10.64,4.02,17.20,0,1. 07,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,3.25
PCA0643,0,0,0,3.07,0.86,4.89,0,0,3.49,0,12.68,0.96 ,4.41,7.45,14.61,0,0,6.21,0,0,0,0,15.00,11.22,0,0, 0,2.26,0,0,4.61,2.86,3.21,0,2.21,0
PCA0644,0.52,0,0,2.58,0,0.27,0,0,6.65,0,27.84,0,0. 77,21.51,13.01,4.09,0,0,0,0,0,7.63,0,4.62,0,0,0,0, 0,2.26,0.14,0,8.10,0,0,0
PCA0645,0.18,3.39,0,0,0,13.02,0,0,6.25,0,5.05,0,15 .37,17.53,0,2.60,0,0,0,0,0,14.37,6.76,9.29,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,2.42,0,3.03,0,0,0.75
PCA0649,1.20,0,0,2.55,0,5.90,0,0,0.07,0,22.60,0,11 .36,15.89,1.03,0,0,12.02,1.46,0,0,8.57,10.85,3.16, 0,0,0.96,0,0.16,0,2.22,0,0,0,0,0
PCA0663,0,0,0,2.07,0,13.64,0.25,0,18.07,0,17.71,0, 13.54,14.99,4.08,0,0,0,0,0,2.08,5.24,0,6.17,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.15,0

Distance to: CDG
17.20465344 PCA0620
21.78182729 PCA0573
22.94907188 PCA0574B
23.48884203 PCA0618
27.68038295 PCA0617
27.86512695 PCA0573B
28.02296380 PCA0645
29.25405271 PCA0643
29.76419997 PCA0574
30.79309663 PCA0648
31.25428771 PCA0251
32.49111725 PCA0660
32.82286703 PCA0649
35.01149954 PCA0663
35.11156647 PCA0644
37.32162376 PCA0657
38.53311044 PCA0252B

Target: CDG
Distance: 1488.0719% / 14.88071904
61.2 PCA0620
36.2 PCA0573
2.6 PCA0574

celticdragongod

06-03-2025, 11:22 PM

Peterski

06-04-2025, 10:24 AM

Has it? First I have heard that. I am a member of the L1335 FTDNA group, and I've never seen anyone mention any ancient samples, In fact, there's still a lot of discourse on whether L1335 or more specifically, L1065 is Pictish or Gaelic or even Cumbric in origin.

This Pictish sample is LUN004.

rothaer

06-04-2025, 11:12 AM

According to Tacitus, at least in the 1st and probably also in the 2nd century, Gotini and Osi were distinguished by their Celtic language.

Cornelius Tacitus, Germany and its Tribes

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3 D42

Yes. I did expressly mention the Cotini, here obviously called Gotini, for the time of the Marcomannic Wars (at abt. 166 AD). That shall have been the last time that Celts were mentioned in that area. As for the Osi your quote of Tacitus assigns their language not as Celtic but deviatingly as Pannonian (whatever that means exactly - Illyrian?).

Peterski

06-05-2025, 12:29 PM

Lucas Lapinski in the Genetic Genealogy Facebook group:

“Are the Piasts a family from the R1b group?
Not necessarily.

I calmly analyzed the scraps of knowledge we got from the source data over the weekend, and the Monday conference.

What we know for sure:
1. 33 burials were analyzed that were classified as "Piasts"
2. the data of a dozen or so Y-DNA samples were given, from which we have haplogroups R1a and R1b
3. the lineages of three of the five sons of Boleslaw the Wrymouth have been examined
4. we have no data from generations earlier than Boleslaw the Wrymouth
5. we don't seem to have even a sample of the Wrymouth himself (the dating of the sample completely disagrees).

Undeniably, the offspring of the duke's youngest son - born after his father's death - Casimir “the Just”, belonged to the male group designated R1b. We do not know if Casimir himself, but certainly already his son Konrad the Just, whose sample was marked as No. 05 - YES.
Only Konrad's great-great-grandson Casimir I Trojdenovic turned out to be a “R1a side-shot", all the others - samples 5, 11, 13, 15, 16 and 17 are R1b.

While quantitatively R1b prevails, counting the filial lines themselves, a serious doubt is introduced:

1. the son of Krzywousty Casimir senior (+1131), who died young, marked as sample 02, is Haplogroup R1A
2. the son of another of Krzywousty's sons, Boleslaw the Curly - Prince Leszek - sample 03 - is also Haplogroup R1A

If we do not have a confirmed and researched descendants of the Greater Poland line of Mieszko “the Old” or the eldest son - the Silesian line of Wladyslaw the Exile, which will confirm the R1B (or R1A) line, then as of today we only know that not the Piasts belonged to the R1b line, but specifically the Piasts of the Mazovian-Cuyavian line from the line of the posthumous child, about which we can not be sure whether he was the son of the Wrymouth (he was not even included in the will)

* TWO LINES of Boleslaw the Wrymouth's descendants belong to haplogroup R1A.
* TWO LINES are still unexplored.
* ONE LINE of the Wrymouth's descendants are carriers of the Y chromosome of haplgroup R1B.

This much we know as of today.

Having experience in Y-DNA research for more than a dozen years, I am very cautious about such revelations.
I don't know if I'm reasoning correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Below is my summary, and from a slide from the conference

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)"

https://i.imgur.com/3X4UNL6.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/UB6qvx0.jpeg

Lapinski wrote:

5. we don't seem to have even a sample of the Wrymouth himself (the dating of the sample completely disagrees).

He is talking about this slide from the conference:

https://i.imgur.com/OCUP2wD.jpg

Peterski

06-05-2025, 12:34 PM

On the other hand, PIAST02 died at age around 40 according to this slide:

https://i.imgur.com/SKJAHqf.jpg

So it seems thhat he could not be Kazimierz (who died as a child at age 9).

We will see who is who when the paper is published in Nature Communications.

Peterski

06-05-2025, 05:14 PM

Lucas Lapinski made another chart which assumes that PIAST02 is Zbigniew:

https://i.imgur.com/wrAwKj6.jpeg

rothaer

06-05-2025, 07:05 PM

Lucas Lapinski made another chart which assumes that PIAST02 is Zbigniew:

https://i.imgur.com/wrAwKj6.jpeg

Btw. the last Piast was an ethnic German, Herzog Georg Wilhelm von Liegnitz, Brieg und Wohlau, d. 21st of November 1675.

rothaer

06-05-2025, 07:14 PM

Lucas Lapinski in the Genetic Genealogy Facebook group:

“Are the Piasts a family from the R1b group?
Not necessarily.

I calmly analyzed the scraps of knowledge we got from the source data over the weekend, and the Monday conference.

What we know for sure:
1. 33 burials were analyzed that were classified as "Piasts"
2. the data of a dozen or so Y-DNA samples were given, from which we have haplogroups R1a and R1b
3. the lineages of three of the five sons of Boleslaw the Wrymouth have been examined
4. we have no data from generations earlier than Boleslaw the Wrymouth
5. we don't seem to have even a sample of the Wrymouth himself (the dating of the sample completely disagrees).

Undeniably, the offspring of the duke's youngest son - born after his father's death - Casimir “the Just”, belonged to the male group designated R1b. We do not know if Casimir himself, but certainly already his son Konrad the Just, whose sample was marked as No. 05 - YES.
Only Konrad's great-great-grandson Casimir I Trojdenovic turned out to be a “R1a side-shot", all the others - samples 5, 11, 13, 15, 16 and 17 are R1b.

While quantitatively R1b prevails, counting the filial lines themselves, a serious doubt is introduced:

1. the son of Krzywousty Casimir senior (+1131), who died young, marked as sample 02, is Haplogroup R1A
2. the son of another of Krzywousty's sons, Boleslaw the Curly - Prince Leszek - sample 03 - is also Haplogroup R1A

If we do not have a confirmed and researched descendants of the Greater Poland line of Mieszko “the Old” or the eldest son - the Silesian line of Wladyslaw the Exile, which will confirm the R1B (or R1A) line, then as of today we only know that not the Piasts belonged to the R1b line, but specifically the Piasts of the Mazovian-Cuyavian line from the line of the posthumous child, about which we can not be sure whether he was the son of the Wrymouth (he was not even included in the will)

* TWO LINES of Boleslaw the Wrymouth's descendants belong to haplogroup R1A.
* TWO LINES are still unexplored.
* ONE LINE of the Wrymouth's descendants are carriers of the Y chromosome of haplgroup R1B.

This much we know as of today.

Having experience in Y-DNA research for more than a dozen years, I am very cautious about such revelations.
I don't know if I'm reasoning correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Below is my summary, and from a slide from the conference

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)"

https://i.imgur.com/3X4UNL6.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/UB6qvx0.jpeg

Lapinski wrote:

He is talking about this slide from the conference:

https://i.imgur.com/OCUP2wD.jpg

Looks like a legit interpretation. It doesn't really sugest R1b but rather R1a. What's your opinion?

gixajo

06-05-2025, 07:15 PM

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 7.4870% / 0.07486970
60.6 Piast?
39.4 Polish

Adding Basque_Spanish & Castilla:

Basque_Spanish,0.126425,0.148739,0.055679,0.00879, 0.05545,0.000249,-0.001754,0.000025,0.029539,0.042923,-0.005214,0.010801,-0.024986,-0.019493,0.015807,0.002614,-0.00563,0.003172,-0.002375,-0.001791,0.008819,0.002204,-0.006479,-0.008654,0.00115
Castilla,0.112197,0.146236,0.040406,-0.002769,0.042821,-0.001952,-0.001712,0.002967,0.026267,0.031917,-0.002204,0.008328,-0.01391,-0.012229,0.011129,-0.003409,-0.006351,-0.000851,-0.002011,-0.001376,0.003244,0.000459,-0.000035,-0.003322,-0.001796

Piast?,0.11701,0.107646,0.059736,0.043605,0.033052 ,0.021642,0.004089,0.010569,0.002822,-0.019754,-0.005391,-0.008003,0.006036,0.016542,-0.007085,-0.000053,-0.004277,0.001976,0.004123,0.006178,0.000774,0.004 748,0.007962,-0.003567,0.007065
Polish,0.123972,0.120848,0.062885,0.054533,0.03390 4,0.024798,0.005111,0.009019,-0.000256,-0.015809,0.000758,-0.004584,0.005476,0.015104,-0.001923,0.000696,-0.00439,0.002238,0.002326,0.000406,-0.004939,0.000103,0.00341,0.002149,-0.001128

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 1.6735% / 0.01673528
66.2 Castilla
28.8 Basque_Spanish
5.0 Polish

Edit:The variation with previously posted results is due of the final use of averages instead of "Piast" individuals.

Peterski

06-05-2025, 11:35 PM

Looks like a legit interpretation. It doesn't really sugest R1b but rather R1a. What's your opinion?

I think the main Piast haplogroup will turn out to be R1b-U152, as Golubinski predicted. Today (Friday) Golubinski will meet with Figlerowicz team and they will analyze it together (as he told me via Messenger).

Peterski

06-08-2025, 04:55 PM

R1b-S747 was an incorrect assignment as it turns out, the Piasts have nothing to do with the Picts:

https://www.national-geographic.pl/historia/piastowie-sa-ze-szkocji-to-absurdalne-i-bledne-wnioski/

"So what conclusion can be drawn? According to the archaeologist, in light of the currently available, incomplete data, it is incorrect to establish the haplogroup of the Piasts as R1b-S747 and connect it with the Picts from Scotland. - Instead, it can be said that at least one of their lines (Kuyavian-Masovian) belonged to haplogroup R1b. It was present in Polish lands even before the arrival of the Slavs. This would rather indicate the local origin of the Piasts. That is, quite different from what Prof. Marek Figlerowicz and his team suggest,” Dr. Blaszczyk points out."

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)