Which admixture / ancestry is more widespread among Germans?

[Peterski]

1) Danish
2) Dutch
3) Belgian
4) French
5) Italian
6) South Slavic
7) Hungarian
8) Czechoslovak
9) Polish
10) Baltic
11) Romanian
12) East Slavic
13) Jewish
14) Other foreign (write which one)

[Peterski]

I think that Polish ancestry / admixture is the most common among Germans out of these listed in the poll.

[Fistora]

Dutch, Polish?

[AndreiDNA]

Lol who is voting Polish :picard1:

[Peterski]

Lol who is voting Polish

This thread is about recent admixtures since the Middle Ages until present, not ancient admixtures like Celtic etc.

I see that you voted Dutch. So how many Germans have Dutch origins in your estimation? I don't think many do.

[Peterski]

At least 9 million Germans have partially Polish origins (and that's not even counting actual Poles living in Germany).

I don't think that more than this have Dutch origins.

[rothaer]

This thread is about recent admixtures since the Middle Ages until present, not ancient admixtures like Celtic etc.


Including or excluding the Middle Ages?

[Peterski]

Including or excluding the Middle Ages?

Including the Middle Ages.

[rothaer]

Including the Middle Ages.

If going by Slavic Silesians being tribally Poles that would already implicate 4.5 million Silesians and maybe 0.5 million East Brandenburgians in 1940. So if they after the expulsion mixed with Germans without Silesian origin that would easily double the number as for today, two or more generations later.

[rothaer]

Including the Middle Ages.

Considering that Dutch and Flemish took part in the medieval Ostsiedlung quite every Eastern German will hail also from them, although the ancestry proportion will be small.

[Peterski]

I'm counting Kashubians (Pomeranians) as well because they were also part of the Medieval Polish Kingdom.

Add to this also 0,5 million Ruhrpolen and Germans with Masovian ancestry from East Prussia.

My 9 million figure was by adding 8,5 million Germans east of the Oder-Neisse in Poland + 0,5 million Ruhrpolen.

Maybe I should subtract from this Germans with Baltic Prussian ancestry.

But since 1945 Germans with Polish ancestry mixed with other Germans in Germany so the number increased.

So the actual number might actually be well over 10 million as of 2025.

[rothaer]

I'm counting Kashubians (Pomeranians) as well because they were also part of the Medieval Polish Kingdom.

(...)

I wouldn't switch between ethnicity and political belonging as you also don't make folks Germans because they politically belonged to the HRR in the Middle Ages. But okay...

[Peterski]

I wouldn't switch between ethnicity and political belonging as you also don't make folks Germans because they politically belonged to the HRR in the Middle Ages. But okay...

If I count as French all groups such as Bretons, Occitans, Auvergnians etc., then I can also count Kashubians as Poles. The difference between Kashubian and Greater Pole is much less than between Occitan and Breton, both ethnically and genetically.

[Peterski]

Also there are at least ca. 567,000 Kashubians in Poland, of whom only ca. 12,000 identify as Non-Poles - so just 2%.

So why should we count Kashubians as Non-Poles if 98% are Poles?

If we go back to 2002 census then even 99% declared as Poles (just 5062 as Non-Poles compared to 11961 in 2021).

[rothaer]

Also there are at least ca. 567,000 Kashubians in Poland of whom only ca. 12,000 identify as Non-Poles so just 2%.

So why should we count Kashubians as Non-Poles if 98% are Poles?

And if we go back to 2002 census then even 99% declared as Poles.

Maybe because this is a modern condition while you otherwise refer to the Middle Ages?

You will hardly count 17th century Masurs as Germans because today 99% of Masurs identify as Germans, will you?

[Peterski]

Maybe because this is a modern condition while you otherwise refer to the Middle Ages?

In the Middle Ages in various documents of the Teutonic Order Kashubians were also referred to as "Polish people".

Generally they were not distinguished from other types of Polish people. And they even called themselves Poles.

=====

Historically, "Kashubians" was first a tribal and then a regional name / identity (like, for example, "Bavarians").

When talking about ethnc identity, Kashubians described themselves as "puolscy ledze" ("Polish people").

Kashubians historically called their own language "puolski" ("Polish"), while Germans called it "Polsch".

[rothaer]

In the Middle Ages in various documents of the Teutonic Order Kashubians were also referred to as "Polish people".


Yes, but in most documents they are separated from Poles and called Pomeralians and Pomeranians. But beside this it's a linguistic classification that motivates a separation, like with Polabians.

We will not come to an agreement on this as you can motivate both views.

[Peterski]

Medieval sources called inhabitants of the area of Lębork (Lauenburg in Pommern) "polensche leute":

https://web.archive.org/web/20160308182514/http://studienstelleog.de/download/HG1.pdf

"(...) Dr. Lorentz mag alle Danziger Archive nach imaginären einheimischen Kaszuben durchstöbern lassen, das Ergebnis wird gleich Null sein; wohl aber lesen wir in Handfesten Ausdrücke wie: Dutsche oder Polene (1341, Lauenburg), Gerichtsbarkeit über die polnischen Einwohner (1356, Pasitz und Rosenberg), unser polensche Leute (1438, Roslasin). Der ostpommersche Adel hatte in Bütow und Lauenburg „polenisches“ Ritterrecht, die „polenschen“ Dörfer leisteten ihre polnischen Dienste usw. R. Cramer, den man gerade wegen seines Pseudokaszubismus[11] in den Mitteilungen so überschwenglich gepriesen hat, erwähnt diesen tiefgehenden kulturellen Einfluß des Polentums zur Ordenszeit mit keiner Silbe, das phantastische „Cassubentum“ - ein Anachronismus - macht die Lektüre seines Werkes geradezu ungenießbar. (...)"


Yes, but in most documents they are separated from Poles and called Pomeralians and Pomeranians.

Can you quote any such documents? The German text I quoted above indicate that it is hard to find such documents.

This is at least true for Kashubians in Pomerelia and Eastern Pomerania (areas like Lauenburg).

[rothaer]

Medieval sources called inhabitants of the area of Lębork (Lauenburg in Pommern) "polensche leute":

https://web.archive.org/web/20160308182514/http://studienstelleog.de/download/HG1.pdf

"(...) Dr. Lorentz mag alle Danziger Archive nach imaginären einheimischen Kaszuben durchstöbern lassen, das Ergebnis wird gleich Null sein; wohl aber lesen wir in Handfesten Ausdrücke wie: Dutsche oder Polene (1341, Lauenburg), Gerichtsbarkeit über die polnischen Einwohner (1356, Pasitz und Rosenberg), unser polensche Leute (1438, Roslasin). Der ostpommersche Adel hatte in Bütow und Lauenburg „polenisches“ Ritterrecht, die „polenschen“ Dörfer leisteten ihre polnischen Dienste usw. R. Cramer, den man gerade wegen seines Pseudokaszubismus[11] in den Mitteilungen so überschwenglich gepriesen hat, erwähnt diesen tiefgehenden kulturellen Einfluß des Polentums zur Ordenszeit mit keiner Silbe, das phantastische „Cassubentum“ - ein Anachronismus - macht die Lektüre seines Werkes geradezu ungenießbar. (...)"

Anectodal quotes like this will not make anything clear and I can bring a lot of quotes that are contradicting this. It's a waste of time. From a German point of view in kind of 90% of the cases Pomeranians were not percieved as Poles.

[Peterski]

Anectodal quotes like this will not make anything clear and I can bring a lot of quotes that are contradicting this. It's a waste of time. From a German point of view in kind of 90% of the cases Pomeranians were not percieved as Poles.

I doubt that you can bring a lot of quotes that are contradicting this. I'm asking about Medieval not more recent quotes. During the Polish-Teutonic Court Trials many witnesses from Pomerelia also testified that inhabitants of Pomerelia are Poles.

For example:

Lites I (2), 404:

"[Miecław of Konecko] audivit a multis senioribus et progenitoribus suis, quod predicta terra Pomoranie semper est et fuit ab antiquo tempore, de cuius contrario hominum memoria non existit, de regno Polonie et infra metas regni Polonie constituta et ipse testis qui loquitur, existens iuvenis fuit in predicta terra Pomoranie et vidit quod omnes habitantes erant Poloni et quod se tenebant de regno Polonie."

English:

"[Miecław of Konecko] heard from his many elders and progenitors that the aforesaid land of Pomerania always is and was from ancient times, of which memory of men does not exist to the contrary, of the Kingdom of Poland and located within the boundaries of the Kingdom of Poland, and the witness who is speaking as a youth was in the aforesaid land of Pomerania and saw that all the inhabitants were Poles and that they held themselves to be of the Kingdom of Poland."

This is from the Trial over Pomerania (Pomerelia) in 1339.

=====

About Mestwin II (Mściwój II) Duke of Pomerania (from the same trial in 1339):

Lites I (2), 338:

"[Dux Mistiwoyus] qui lingua et moribus ac legibus se tenebat tamquam Polonus et semper de regno Polonie et infra ipsum regnum."

English:

"[Duke Mściwój] in language, customs, and laws thought of himself as a Pole and of the Kingdom of Poland and within the same kingdom."

=====

Another witness testimony from that trial in 1339:

Lites I (2), 163:

"Dixit eciam, quod una et eadem lingua est in Pomorania et Polonia, quia omnes homines communiter habitantes in ea locuntur polonicum (...) terra et ducatus Pomoranie est de regno Polonie et infra regnum, et est vox et fama publica de predictis tam inter indigenas quam inter Alamannos et alios alienigenas habitantes intra regnum Polonie et extra."

English:

"There is one and the same language in Poland and Pomerania because all the people living in [Pomerania] commonly speak Polish (...) the land or duchy of Pomerania is of the Kingdom of Poland and within the kingdom, and there is common knowledge about the aforesaid among both the indigenous people and the Germans and other foreigners living within the Kingdom of Poland and beyond."

=====

You can find these testimonies here - https://ecommons.cornell.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/6133efb0-df4d-488b-b386-f46be44be48d/content

Also here - https://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=148546

[Peterski]

I wonder how much of a difference there was between Kashubian and Standard Polish during the 14th century. Probably back then these languages were even more mutually intelligible than today. Differences perhaps increased since then.

[Paleolithic]

Polacks obviously.

Dutch ≠ German

- German; Elbe Germanen considerably Slavicised.
- Dutch; Weser Rhine Germanen (the original Germani) mixed with North Sea Germanen.
- Polish; West Slavs considerably Germanised.

There is heavy Celtic ancestry present both in NL and DE, though their input is ethno-linguistically irrelevant.

[Malagueña]

I wonder how much of a difference there was between Kashubian and Standard Polish during the 14th century. Probably back then these languages were even more mutually intelligible than today. Differences perhaps increased since then.

Maybe it was akin to between High and Low Germanic dialects :chin:

[Observer9000]

Depends on the part of Germany surely. Overall maybe Polish but Dutch is also quite a good guess, when I trace back a few centuries I saw more Dutch than Polish names.