Can Europeans pass as Armenians?

[Arsen_]

For many centuries in past it was very dangerous for Europeans to travel in Asia. Actually in many areas Europeans were strictly prohibited to move in under fear of death penalty. However some Europeans found way to overcome that prohibitions and travelled in Asia as Armenian merchants. For example some Portuguese man called Bento de Goes who was Jesuit travelled to China as Armenian merchant. Some Spanish (or maybe Catalan) men called Antoni de Montserrat and Pedro Paez also Jesuits travelled in Asia and Africa (from India to Ethiopia) also as Armenian merchants. Some English (or maybe Scottish) man called Alexander Burnes who was spying for British Government travelled as Armenian merchant from India to Afghanistan and after that to Bukhara (today's Uzbekistan). Some German man called Georg Ludvig who was spying for Russian Government travelled as Armenian merchant to Central Asia, Afghanistan and China. Apparently in the past travelling in Asia as Armenian merchants for Europeans was rather common. Even Daniel Defoe, a well-known writer wrote some book called "The King of Pirates" where the major character also travels in Asia as Armenian merchant.

[Raikaswinþs]

Being armenian is a very old fantasy of mine (ah, Rome Total War Rulez). I would easier pass as balcanite to a certain extent. In Armenia...maybe wouldn't stand out in a crowd, but wouldn't really look like one of you if looked carefully.

I wouldn't mind marrying an Armenian. That would be racially ok with me :D Prefer the weather in Abkhazia though

[Nairi]

Just now in Member Thread you said pics of you are coming soon, will be waiting! ;)

[Fernando]

Most can't. It would be more accurate to say that some (few) Armenians might pass as Europeans.

[Damião de Góis]

For example some Portuguese man called Bento de Goes who was Jesuit travelled to China as Armenian merchant.

Never heard of this person and since jesuits were expelled in the 18th century we don't know anything about them. But i googled him and he traveled to India, China and Central Asia indeed. Going by his low resolution picture, i guess he could pass as anything:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Gois.jpg

[Nairi]

Never heard of this person and since jesuits were expelled in the 18th century we don't know anything about them. But i googled him and he traveled to India, China and Central Asia indeed. Going by his low resolution picture, i guess he could pass as anything:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Gois.jpg

I didn't know that either, hisotry lesson for all of us :p

[Armin]

Armenians are Europeans, so the question is an oxymoron.

[Fernando]

Not a single map of Europe contains Armenia on google images.

https://www.google.com/search?q=europe+map&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=K0kaT_6KCamXiQKn9KitCA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ&biw=1047&bih=478

[Nairi]

Again this troll who thanks anti-Armenian posts of Bozkurt ...
Is he the same Decimator or it is just Mexica only produces trolls?

All non white/non European/non Christians are against Armenians, this should give a good clue ...

Just ignore him...

[Fernando]

What are you talking about? I simply pointed out the fact that not a single google images result contained Armenia. Don't be mad at me for pointing out facts. I consider Europe everything from Spain to Russia, from Sweden to Greece and most agree with me. I know a few Armenians where I live and they would never pass in Europe. I have nothing against Armenians I like them, they're one of the only few Christian peoples in West Asia and I support their struggle against Muslims. But they are not Europeans.

[Armin]

Not a single map of Europe contains Armenia on google images.

https://www.google.com/search?q=europe+map&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=K0kaT_6KCamXiQKn9KitCA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ&biw=1047&bih=478

Incorrect, Armenia is officially part of Europe.


Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Georgia, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

[Nairi]

What are you talking about? I simply pointed out the fact that not a single google images result contained Armenia. Don't be mad at me for pointing out facts. I consider Europe everything from Spain to Russia, from Sweden to Greece and most agree with me. I know a few Armenians where I live and they would never pass in Europe.

Troll...

[Hess]

Incorrect, Armenia is officially part of Europe.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

I am sorry, but no amount of "evidence" will convince me that Azerbaijan is a European country.

[Fernando]

Incorrect, Armenia is officially part of Europe.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

So Muslims from Azerbaijan are European? I would never have guessed.

[Armin]

What are you talking about? I simply pointed out the fact that not a single google images result contained Armenia. Don't be mad at me for pointing out facts. I consider Europe everything from Spain to Russia, from Sweden to Greece and most agree with me. I know a few Armenians where I live and they would never pass in Europe. I have nothing against Armenians I like them, they're one of the only few Christian peoples in West Asia and I support their struggle against Muslims. But they are not Europeans.

Why do you assume my comment was directed to you? I was referring to the original maker of the thread as far as Armenia being European that has been decided by Europeans themselves where Europe begins and ends and that is what really matters for me.

[Nairi]

I am sorry, but no amount of "evidence" will convince me that Azerbaijan is a European country.


Geographically-yes, part of it is in Europe, but unlike Armenians they have no historical,linguistic,genetic,cultural ties with Europe proper,neither they have Western values, nor they consider themselves Europeans or close to Europe.Moreover they have anti-European attitude.

[Armin]

So Muslims from Azerbaijan are European? I would never have guessed.

A good deal of that territory it Armenian controlled and if things go this way that is only going to expand and is only to the benefit of European interests of having a strong Armenia that keeps the gates of Europe firmly intact.

[Svarog]

I don't care what map says, Amernians are European people with European culture and their look is not foreign to Europe, actually, I find them as rather pretty people. They carried more sacrifice to preserve some of the European culture than most European countries, and fought harder than again, most European countries.

Azerbaijan does not belong in Europe and never will, I don't care how they look like their culture is totally foreign to mine; Then again, as if anyone really cares how few people determine what's European and what is not.

[Fernando]

Why do you assume my comment was directed to you? I was referring to the original maker of the thread as far as Armenia being European that has been decided by Europeans themselves where Europe begins and ends and that is what really matters for me.

I was clearly responding to Nairi with my post, not yourself.

[Armin]

I am sorry, but no amount of "evidence" will convince me that Azerbaijan is a European country.

Like I noted, a good deal of so-called "Azerbaijan" is in Armenian hands and this trend will only continue.

[Armin]

I was clearly responding to Nairi with my post, not yourself.

Ok, thanks for clarification.

[Nairi]

Like I noted, a good deal of so-called "Azerbaijan" is in Armenian hands and this trend will only continue.


Astvatz dzaint lsi! :thumb001:

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

For many centuries in past it was very dangerous for Europeans to travel in Asia. Actually in many areas Europeans were strictly prohibited to move in under fear of death penalty. However some Europeans found way to overcome that prohibitions and travelled in Asia as Armenian merchants. For example some Portuguese man called Bento de Goes who was Jesuit travelled to China as Armenian merchant. Some Spanish (or maybe Catalan) men called Antoni de Montserrat and Pedro Paez also Jesuits travelled in Asia and Africa (from India to Ethiopia) also as Armenian merchants. Some English (or maybe Scottish) man called Alexander Burnes who was spying for British Government travelled as Armenian merchant from India to Afghanistan and after that to Bukhara (today's Uzbekistan). Some German man called Georg Ludvig who was spying for Russian Government travelled as Armenian merchant to Central Asia, Afghanistan and China. Apparently in the past travelling in Asia as Armenian merchants for Europeans was rather common. Even Daniel Defoe, a well-known writer wrote some book called "The King of Pirates" where the major character also travels in Asia as Armenian merchant.

I can pass as a Swede/Scandinavian in China, Hong Kong, Congo, Papua New Guinea, Mongolia, Peru. Your point?

I imagine a few Greeks could actually pass as Armenians in Armenia (and not in China :lol00002:) and a good number of Azkhenazi Europeans but that's about it.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

A good deal of that territory it Armenian controlled and if things go this way that is only going to expand and is only to the benefit of European interests of having a strong Armenia that keeps the gates of Europe firmly intact.

What does your map in avatar mean? Why is Belarus and Ukraine highlighter in orange with Armenia/Azerbaijan/Georgia? Does that imply that they're all semi Europeans or what?

[orangepulp]

Wow whats up with these thread started by Armenians comparing themselves to Europeans. I have never seen such inferiority complex in my life.

How about I start a thread like this

''Can Arabs pass as Armenians''

I'm sure you wouldn't like it now would you, so try to understand Europeans they don't like it either.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Wow whats up with these thread started by Armenians comparing themselves to Europeans. I have never seen such inferiority complex in my life.

How about I start a thread like this

''Can Arabs pass as Armenians'

I'm sure you wouldn't like it now would you, so try to understand Europeans they don't like it either.

Yemenis and Gulf Arabs have 18% of probability to pass as Armenians. That chance is higher with semi-Arabs like the Lebanese or Palestinians. :lol00002:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Z3KYL6AmkM/TkTaXeASbgI/AAAAAAAAD6w/s4hiKdp6sB4/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BArmenians_12.png

[Nairi]

Turkey blockading Armenia is very worried of Armenian and other European close ties just like it used to be before Turkish invasion in Armenian Hihglan, so we seem them on all threads where everyone else is communicating normally lashing out at Armenians...

Turkish trolls are everywhere, all they need to separate Armenians from closest people while they are taking Europe over by sheer numbers and they will not behave "frindly" but will show their true savage nature like they did to many of us...

[orangepulp]

Yemenis and Gulf Arabs have 18% of probability to pass as Armenians. That chance is higher with semi-Arabs like the Lebanese or Palestinians. :lol00002:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Z3KYL6AmkM/TkTaXeASbgI/AAAAAAAAD6w/s4hiKdp6sB4/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BArmenians_12.png

Funny thing is the average Armenian has more South West Asian admixture than a Turk and even less European, yet Turks never call themselves European.

Dienekes K12a project:

Armenian_D

Southwest Asian: 13.4
Mediterranean: 11.9
North European: 4.6

Turkish_D

Southwest Asian: 10.2
Mediterranean: 15.6
North European:11.4

Mcdonald's plot Armenians are more Southwards than Turks:

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6199/genomeorangepulpfull201.png

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Turkey blockading Armenia

Turkey not being part of this thread.



is very worried of Armenian and other European close ties just like it used to be before Turkish invasion in Armenian Hihglan

No such thing as Armenian Highland. It's called Taurus mountains.



, so we seem them on all threads where everyone else is communicating normally lashing out at Armenians...

Giving my opinion on the swarthy, foreign phenotype of Armenians is not lashing out. 3 or 4 Armenians gang debating to convince a few easy mislead people is not communicating normally.



Turkish trolls are everywhere, all they need to separate Armenians from closest people while they are taking Europe over by sheer numbers...

There are only 2 turks at the forums and we're so far way less trollish than your ethnic group on global level.

[Vasconcelos]

I consider Europe everything from Spain to Russia, from Sweden to Greece and most agree with me.

Ah, ignoring Norway, Iceland, Cyprus and Portugal, eh?

[Svarog]

Funny thing is the average Armenian has more South West Asian admixture than a Turk and even less European, yet Turks never call themselves European.

Nobody cares about that crap, Turks needs to stop parasiting of Europe and move out, nobody likes you or wants you and you're not welcome anywhere. Your culture is foreign, and we don't want your 7 kids per family birth rate in EU. Armenians are culturally closer and friendly to Europe while Turkey has been nothing but an enemy for ages. Look is irrelevant.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Nobody cares about that crap, Turks needs to stop parasiting of Europe and move out, nobody likes you or wants you and you're not welcome anywhere. Your culture is foreign, and we don't want your 7 kids per family birth rate in EU. Armenians are culturally closer and friendly to Europe while Turkey has been nothing but an enemy for ages. Look is irrelevant.

You have had many enemies within your own Europe, slavic imbecile.

If our culture is foreign I assure you Armenian culture is even more so. Armenian culture is more similar to Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt.

[Svarog]

You have had many enemies within your own Europe, slavic imbecile.

We're so sensitive today, got your pms?

But even so, I don't remember Armenia being hostile to anyone in Europe while Turkey has hundreds of years of hostile behavior toward European soil, not to mention current invasion with Turkish baby boom, if your country so impressive why are you all in Europe? :rolleyes:

Someone should explain you a concept of a condom.


If our culture is foreign I assure you Armenian culture is even more so. Armenian culture is more similar to Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt.

That's just stupid lol.

And Egypt's culture is actually quite impressive and about 5 billions steps above yours anyway.

[orangepulp]

Nobody cares about that crap, Turks needs to stop parasiting of Europe and move out, nobody likes you or wants you and you're not welcome anywhere. Your culture is foreign, and we don't want your 7 kids per family birth rate in EU. Armenians are culturally closer and friendly to Europe while Turkey has been nothing but an enemy for ages. Look is irrelevant.

Who's the parasite hypocrite. You guys invaded the Americas, Australia, Africa, India, etc..,confiscated their natural resources and treated the locals like shit for centuries. I don't live in Europe never did never will, as for some Turks who live in Europe this is honestly not my problem, if you don't want them kick them out but why would you? You need them otherwise why would your governments accept them in the first place?

Who's talking about phenotype, we are talking about genetics here. If you can accept the Armenians as Europeans though their genetic admixture says otherwise, you might as well accept Africans who were born and raised in Europe as Europeans too. Im sure culturally they are more European than your average Armenian.


7 kids per family is not bad, look at you guys soon your race will parish or assimilate it seems with such low birth rates. I don't see why you're so proud of your low fertility rates, only an idiot would be proud of that.


http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/world_net_birth_rate_2007.png

[Hess]

Like I said before, if we accept the Cypriots as Genetically European (which most do, except for a few moronic Nordicists and Skinheads), it would be a double standard not to accept Armenians/Georgians/Turks as well on the basis of genetics seeing as how they're really similar.

The question we should be asking is how European is their culture, mentality, and ethos? This is the question that decides whether or not we accept them into Europe.

[Aces High]

You guys invaded the Americas, Australia, Africa, India, etc..,confiscated their natural resources and treated the locals like shit for centuries.

We were spreading culture and civilisaton to the darker peoples......yes we may have taken a bauble here and a bangle there for our troubles but they are infinitely better off for our input in their savage lives.

[Hess]

We were spreading culture and civilisaton to the darker peoples......yes we may have taken a bauble here and a bangle there for our troubles but they are infinitely better off for our input in their savage lives.

The white man's burden mentality forgets to account for a simple truth- you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink :coffee:

[Padre Organtino]

Like I said before, if we accept the Cypriots as Genetically European (which most do, except for a few moronic Nordicists and Skinheads), it would be a double standard not to accept Armenians/Georgians/Turks as well on the basis of genetics seeing as how they're really similar.

The question we should be asking is how European is their culture, mentality, and ethos? This is the question that decides whether or not we accept them into Europe.

I'm gonna be labeled as Georgian chauvinist and Hidden Turk for nth time but here's my honest take on the question.

You can sort of label Georgians as honorary Europeans but I doubt this has much meaning. I and many Georgians alike certainly feel closer to South-Eastern Europe than to majority of our neighbours culturally but that does not make Georgia European.
Turks would be acceptable as Euros had we accounted only for the Western part of their country but in general they are quite distinct from Europeans and have their own self-identification.
As for Armenians - they are more Anatolians than anything else. They certainly integrate much better than most of their neighbours in Europe and are in general sympathetic to the West but their culture feels too exotic for Europe.

[orangepulp]

We were spreading culture and civilisaton to the darker peoples......yes we may have taken a bauble here and a bangle there for our troubles but they are infinitely better off for our input in their savage lives.

Who are you to decide who's life standards are savage or not, why the fuck do you care as long as the locals are happy? No body need your input. I don't think your life style is any better than theirs honestly. We have seen barbarism from your side not theirs, the treatment of African Americans, native Americans is unacceptable.

[Aces High]

The white man's burden mentality forgets to account for a simple truth- you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink :coffee:

"new-caught, sullen peoples, half devil and half child".

[Aces High]

Who are you to decide who's life standards are savage or not,

The master race......numero uno...The white man....WASPs....thats who we are.

Put that in your hookah pipe and smoke it.

[orangepulp]

The master race......numero uno...The white man....WASPs....thats who we are.

Put that in your hookah pipe and smoke it.

Master race my ass :laugh:, lets see who will be the master race in a 100 years with such low birth rates. Not master race but extinct race.

[Aces High]

Master race my ass

Ask youself why you are communicating in our language and we not in yours.......on an invention from us brought to you with know how from us and tech from us.

Ask yourself why Turks still shit in holes in the floor.

Now run along to your childlike amusements.

[orangepulp]

Ask youself why you are communicating in our language and we not in yours.......on an invention from us brought to you with know how from us and tech from us.


Its a plus to know the language of the enemy, its your loss if you don't know ours. The more languages one knows the more powerful one is.



Ask yourself why Turks still shit in holes in the floor.

Now run along to your childlike amusements.

First you ask yourself why European walk around with shit in their and not use water.

[Aces High]

Its a plus to know the language of the enemy,

Now you know why we dont want you in Europe......scratch beneath the surface and the ignorant middle eastern peasant is there to see.

[Drawing-slim]

(Off topic)
Speaking of technology, if anyone has an iphone, on the map ap if you type "where am i" and search, will automatically show you armenia as location.
This armanian lady told me that today and was true on my phone:D

I guess steve jobs was adopted by an armanian family or something, didn't bother any further

[Svarog]

Its a plus to know the language of the enemy, its your loss if you don't know ours. The more languages one knows the more powerful one is.

I rest my case.

[PBachman]

I'm gonna be labeled as Georgian chauvinist and Hidden Turk for nth time but here's my honest take on the question.

You can sort of label Georgians as honorary Europeans but I doubt this has much meaning. I and many Georgians alike certainly feel closer to South-Eastern Europe than to majority of our neighbours culturally but that does not make Georgia European.
Turks would be acceptable as Euros had we accounted only for the Western part of their country but in general they are quite distinct from Europeans and have their own self-identification.
As for Armenians - they are more Anatolians than anything else. They certainly integrate much better than most of their neighbours in Europe and are in general sympathetic to the West but their culture feels too exotic for Europe.

What is so "extreme" about Armenian culture? Please name me some aspect that you find "extreme"?

Again, you claim to be "impartial", but are clearly speaking with a huge bias. Your logic does not make sense. You claim Georgians, who have taken much of Armenian culture via Armenian royal families and etc. or at least, we can bot agree that both people share a good amount of their culture with each other, are "honorary European", but Armenians are not? Right and I am Santa Klaus and living on Mars. You keep insinuating an agenda, but claim to be "impartial". You need to stop slandering us and I am getting annoyed.

Please answer the question, as I highly doubt you know anything about Armenian culture to even be considered an "expert". Again, I don't care about the "who is European or not" thread, but you are making extreme statements that are not supported.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

We were spreading culture and civilisaton to the darker peoples......yes we may have taken a bauble here and a bangle there for our troubles but they are infinitely better off for our input in their savage lives.

You did not spread too much stuff anyway... otherwise Africa and other shitholes you conquered would be first world countries today. At least we were able to conquer places with people who were technologically on part with us.

Who did the British conquer? A bunch of stick niggers with plates throwing you rocks?

[Aces High]

Who did the British conquer?

Two thirds of the worlds surface and the seven sea's.......go fuck a duck shitstick.:cool:

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Two thirds of the worlds surface and the seven sea's.......go fuck a duck shitstick.:cool:

Those two thirds were either buffalo hunters with no armies, boomerang throwers or stick niggers in mud huts. Is that what you feel proud about? It's as if I was proud of stepping on cockroaches.

[Aces High]

Those two thirds were either buffalo hunters with no armies, boomerang throwers or stick niggers

Go and do it yourself shit for brains then get back to me.;)

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Go and do it yourself shit for brains then get back to me.;)

We did it with people who were technologically on par with us, with armies as big as us and similar shit:

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/img/ottoman-empire-1580.gif


This is the people we conquered:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/01/22/athens_wideweb__470x311,0.jpg

http://www.studiolum.com/wang/pontos-pontus-trebizond-greek-warriors.jpg

You... however:

http://us-africa.tripod.com/shakazulu.gif

:lol00002: Don't give a shit for your high culture and whatever crap, your high culture right now is turning to chavs and pakistan right now.

[Hess]

We did it with people who were technologically on par with us, with armies as big as us and similar shit:

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/img/ottoman-empire-1580.gif


This is the people we conquered:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/01/22/athens_wideweb__470x311,0.jpg

http://www.studiolum.com/wang/pontos-pontus-trebizond-greek-warriors.jpg

You... however:

http://us-africa.tripod.com/shakazulu.gif

:lol00002: Don't give a shit for your high culture and whatever crap, your high culture right now is turning to chavs and pakistan right now.

oh come on mate, the Turks were infamous for always having bigger armies than the Europeans they fought. Almost every battle Turkey fought in the Balkans and in the Crusades was with an army bigger than that of their opponents.

[Aces High]

We did it with people who were technologically on par with us,

So you conquered people with bad sanitary conditions and who wore chewbacca shoes....great i hope it keeps fine for you.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

So you conquered people with bad sanitary conditions and who wore chewbacca shoes....great i hope it keeps fine for you.

Funny that you think that about Hellenic people who had civilizations when you people were just sodomy practicing Celts going around in animal skin.

[Aces High]

when you people were just sodomy practicing Celts going around in animal skin.

What do you mean when...we still are.

[Vasconcelos]

What do you mean when...we still are.

And we like it.

[Aces High]

And we like it.

Imagine if we cleaned our act up....we would be masters of the universe.

[Raikaswinþs]

I don't think any member in TA has ever taken part in any Conquest, war, battle, skirmish or for all that matters, anything beyond a schoolfight.

So I find it really funny that you entertain yourselves so much and take so much pride in what people from the past with only an arguable and distant connection to yourselves did to some other random people in a random era.

I feel very proud of the good stuff that my countrymen did along history, but I do not take pride of it since I haven't been part of it.

Hence I cannot hate a Frenchman because we were at war 2 hundred years ago. I can only laugh at them though, when they play the Denmark anthem at the Tour the France , Roland Garros etc every time a Spaniard hits the top.

Lol, bad losers xD

[Aces High]

I don't think any member in TA has ever taken part in any Conquest, war, battle, skirmish or for all that matters, anything beyond a schoolfight.

I have...not bragging just saying.

[Hess]

I don't think any member in TA has ever taken part in any Conquest, war, battle, skirmish or for all that matters, anything beyond a schoolfight

I'm in ROTC, if that counts :coffee:

[Armin]

What does your map in avatar mean? Why is Belarus and Ukraine highlighter in orange with Armenia/Azerbaijan/Georgia? Does that imply that they're all semi Europeans or what?

It is an EU map, in blue are the EU states and in orange are countries that are integrating into the European Union.

[Aces High]

It is an EU map, in blue are the EU states and in orange are countries that are integrating into the European Union.

You should have a more updated map.With the countries queing up to get out of the EU.....when Armenia and Turkey and Israel and Uzbekistan all become part of the EU in the hope of fat cheques and freebies all the real European countries will have long been gone.

[Vasconcelos]

It is an EU map, in blue are the EU states and in orange are countries that are integrating into the European Union.

You might want to keep away from it, though.

[Armin]

You have had many enemies within your own Europe, slavic imbecile.

If our culture is foreign I assure you Armenian culture is even more so. Armenian culture is more similar to Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt.

Like I said, Armenia is officially within Europe and is integrating into the EU, we will make sure that Turkey is NEVER part of Europe, never after what have you done to Armenians, Hellenes and other European peoples. So do not pretend to be speaking in their support you are not a friend, but an enemy of European Civilization.

[Armin]

You might want to keep away from it, though.

I understand Vasconcelos, but that is all we got, we have to work with the pan-European structure and make sure it serves European interests.

[cilicia]

Its a plus to know the language of the enemy, its your loss if you don't know ours. The more languages one knows the more powerful one is.

I'm glad you are being honest for once in your life and revealing your true nature.

[Armin]

You should have a more updated map.With the countries queing up to get out of the EU.....when Armenia and Turkey and Israel and Uzbekistan all become part of the EU in the hope of fat cheques and freebies all the real European countries will have long been gone.

This is not about the above, but about the preservation of European values, Armenia stood and stands by them, while I cannot say the same for the latter noted countries (and rightly they are not considered European, nor I am almost certain ever will ever be) which have been only at odds and on a collision course with Europe.

[Padre Organtino]

What is so "extreme" about Armenian culture? Please name me some aspect that you find "extreme"?

Again, you claim to be "impartial", but are clearly speaking with a huge bias. Your logic does not make sense. You claim Georgians, who have taken much of Armenian culture via Armenian royal families and etc. or at least, we can bot agree that both people share a good amount of their culture with each other, are "honorary European", but Armenians are not? Right and I am Santa Klaus and living on Mars. You keep insinuating an agenda, but claim to be "impartial". You need to stop slandering us and I am getting annoyed.

Please answer the question, as I highly doubt you know anything about Armenian culture to even be considered an "expert". Again, I don't care about the "who is European or not" thread, but you are making extreme statements that are not supported.

What's so slandering about things I write? It's you and several other AR posters that keep bashing Georgians.
Georgians did not import their culture through Armenians. There was certainly a strong Armenian influence and both countries do have a lot in common culturally (more so than any of them with Azeris).
The Georgian Royal family of Bagrationi was of an Armenian origins but by the time they became thi kings they were already Georgianized (not to mention that the other ruling dynasties that they merged with were not of Armenian origins).
Armenian folk and pop music, costumes and architecture are quite distant from their European counterparts. Moreover Armenian slef-identification is based on this diasporal worldview that is more common among Anatolian and Middle Eastern folks than Europeans.
Georgians are connected to SE Europe through Eastern Orthodox Church and larger Hellenic and Russian influences (hence the predominance of European names among Georgians compared to Armenians). Additionally they are not very patriachal and ethnocentric like Euros.
And I don't see why denying Europeanness is an insult. There are Middle Eastern and Oriental cultures that I adore and respect much more than some European ones (no, Armenians are not Middle Easterners).

[Fernando]

Ah, ignoring Norway, Iceland, Cyprus and Portugal, eh?

Unintentional mistake.

[Gaztelu]

Oh, this discussion again. :rolleyes2:

[Padre Organtino]

So Muslims from Azerbaijan are European? I would never have guessed.

They're as much Muslim as your average Afram. That said, their culture has little to do with Europe and belongs to Middle East.

[PBachman]

What's so slandering about things I write? It's you and several other AR posters that keep bashing Georgians.

No, you do slander us. You are claiming Armenian culture is "extreme" and etc. when you do not highlight what is so extreme about it. You probably don't even know anything about Armenian culture, but you claim to be an "expert" on a construct that, as you claim, is so "alien". And if it is "alien" then you would have to study it it correct, as you could not "relate to it"; therefore, you would have to be an expert? Correct. Thus, since you are not an expert then you must stop communicating on topics pertaining to Armenians and making remarks that are laughable like "Armenian culture is extreme". Yes, it may be unique, but being unique is much different than being "extreme". It is borderline slander and in a subtitle way, you are trying to push forward an agenda.

Furthermore, what culture relative to another is not unique? None, I don't expect Italian culture to be the same as German culture, but that does not make Italian culture extreme relative to German culture. I would say Greek culture versus Italian has similarities, but even then,, Italian and Greek culture is unique relative to even each other. This goes for Georgians and Armenians and their similarities and how these similarities may be unique to Southern Caucasus compared to parts of Europe.

On the other hand, some regional populations; mostly populations that have adopted Islam, in my humble opinion, possess culture that is extreme to Europeans. Clearly, some populations that are Christian in the Middle-East don't have an extreme culture relative to Europeans, but they do not possess the historical links with Europe like Armenians and Georgians do. Especially, Armenians, as for most of their history they have been in close contact with Europe via various channels. Furthermore, Armenians an ancient Indo-European population. Personally, I consider them the oldest. Nothing about their identity or culture would warrant a label of "extreme".



Georgians did not import their culture through Armenians. There was certainly a strong Armenian influence and both countries do have a lot in common culturally (more so than any of them with Azeris).
The Georgian Royal family of Bagrationi was of an Armenian origins but by the time they became thi kings they were already Georgianized (not to mention that the other ruling dynasties that they merged with were not of Armenian origins).

Well, again, you are right and I respect your honesty, but I don't want to make it a point that Georgians are an off-shot of Armenians or vice-versa. In my opinion, Georgians are an off-shot of the ancient Hurrians. They have cultural continuity there. Armenians are an off-shot of the Hittites or vice-versa and Hurrian population that adopted Indo-European language. There is strong evidence to indicate that Hittites and Hurrians have always had a similar relationship as Armenians and Georgians do today. The cultural continuity among these populations is rich. In fact, while you would like to claim that "Georgians are not European and Armenians as well", I, rather, feel strongly that Armenians and Georgians have provided much to Europeans via various channels. There are many elements in European culture that can be traced to our respective populations. For example, wine, military tradition, equestrian tradition, some forms of architecture, fortifications, heraldry, and etc. I don't think the same could be said of other populations in the area.

Now, does this mean that I believe Armenians and Georgians are European? That is not a decision to be made regarding any population. However, there has to be points of contact between population. As I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't find links to "Europeans". It is not an easy question. Clearly, there are populations that are not European, but the question whether Armenians or Georgians are "European or not" hinges on the individual. Some may make that identification and decide they are "European", but others may choose not to identify, but the bottom line is that their choice to identify can be supported.


Armenian folk and pop music, costumes and architecture are quite distant from their European counterparts. Moreover Armenian slef-identification is based on this diasporal worldview that is more common among Anatolian and Middle Eastern folks than Europeans.

No. Middle-Eastern music, dance, costumes, and architecture is distinct from Armenians and Georgians. Again, please highlight what is the same with Armenians? Furthermore, you seem to discount the fact that Armenian populations were forced into Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and etc. They may have absorbed a bit of culture, but you can't use these populations as representative of Armenians in Armenia. It would be like claiming that the Russophile Georgians in Russia are representative of Georgians. Clearly, this argument can not be made. Furthermore, if you even look at how Armenian folk dances, folk music, costumes, and etc. you wouldn't not find one single thing in common with Middle-Easterners. You seem to be again speaking as if you are "expert", but clearly, you still have not highlighted what about the culture would make it seem "extreme". Extreme is a very strong word to describe a culture relative to another. What is extreme about it? Can you please highlight? By all means, do Armenians belly dance? No, do Middle-Eastern dance in the same manner? No, do they eat the same foods? No, do they use the same language? No, do they have the same religion? Some. You see my point? What is it about Armenians that makes them "extreme" to Europeans? How is this "different" than say, the difference between Italian culture and German culture or Icelandic culture? If you can't answer the question then I would recommend you choose better words next time. I would prefer you use "unique" and if it is "unique" than you can claim that Greek culture is "unique" versus English and etc.


Georgians are connected to SE Europe through Eastern Orthodox Church and larger Hellenic and Russian influences (hence the predominance of European names among Georgians compared to Armenians). Additionally they are not very patriachal and ethnocentric like Euros.

Right...I sometimes wonder where you get your information and opinions from? Armenians have had a strong Hellenic influence. Our language has been influenced by Phrygians. We have been influence populations within the Byzantine Empire. We have had Russian influences as well. The Loris Melikov family was the most prominent Russian noble family next to only the Russian royal family. Furthermore, there are many names among Armenians that are shared by Europeans. First, Stella is in fact an Armenian. Names like Balthazar, Salazar, Armin, Herman, and etc...have origins in Armenia. You have Armenized names like Jacob (Hakop), Petros (Peter), Pogos (Paul), Levon (Leon), Rupen (Ruben) and etc. You also have fully European names like Elizabeth, Laura, Christik (Christine), and etc. You have names from the Caucasus that are shared like Tamar, Tamara, and etc. Finally, you have Armenian names like Armen, Artin, Vahag, Hrug, Anahit, Sarkis, Tagouhi, and etc. Finally, what do names have to do with it? You are ignoring the other connections to Europe that are more stronger and established with what Armenians pick for first names? Are you serious? Come on Padre, stop with the antics, you are better than this. I would recommend you stop putting yourself as an expert in Armenian history. You make misleading statements. Please stop replying if you don't have any information on the subject.



And I don't see why denying Europeanness is an insult. There are Middle Eastern and Oriental cultures that I adore and respect much more than some European ones (no, Armenians are not Middle Easterners).

To me it is misleading. I find the term "west Asian" insulting as well. What the fuck is "west Asian"? To me it implies a relationship with various populations where there are none. In the case of Turks and Kurds, it implies a relationship where there is none. Academics unanimously agree that during the Ottoman Empire there was a systematic attempt to change demographics both socially and racially in favor of Turks. Furthermore, their ethnic lines were not "ethnic" rather religious. You had a islamic population mixing with one another and picking out populations from Christian villages. In come cases, like Albanians, the populations succumbed to state wide religious changes. There was forced conversions and etc. The neat genetic studies you cite that group Armenians as "west Asian" when in fact they are neither "Asian" or come from the "west" nor do they have any relations with the populations they are grouped with imply a relationship where there is none. It is an artificial construct. To an amateur it would seem there is a "relationship", but there is not. With respect to Turks, much of their culture is recycled from native populations, who tragically, are not even present anymore. If someone would not know about the history region, they would think Turks invented everything, but in reality, much of the Ottoman Empire was built on the backs of various populations that were non-Turkish.

[Raikaswinþs]

What's so slandering about things I write? It's you and several other AR posters that keep bashing Georgians.
Georgians did not import their culture through Armenians. There was certainly a strong Armenian influence and both countries do have a lot in common culturally (more so than any of them with Azeris).
The Georgian Royal family of Bagrationi was of an Armenian origins but by the time they became thi kings they were already Georgianized (not to mention that the other ruling dynasties that they merged with were not of Armenian origins).
Armenian folk and pop music, costumes and architecture are quite distant from their European counterparts. Moreover Armenian slef-identification is based on this diasporal worldview that is more common among Anatolian and Middle Eastern folks than Europeans.
Georgians are connected to SE Europe through Eastern Orthodox Church and larger Hellenic and Russian influences (hence the predominance of European names among Georgians compared to Armenians). Additionally they are not very patriachal and ethnocentric like Euros.
And I don't see why denying Europeanness is an insult. There are Middle Eastern and Oriental cultures that I adore and respect much more than some European ones (no, Armenians are not Middle Easterners).

I think both Georgians and Armenians are European gate-keepers. pop music, architecture , phenotype and religion habits of Spaiards and Russians are a world away, yet both are considered Europeans.

Georgians and Armenians: Peripherial Europeans

Azerbajanis: Middle Easterners

All three of them: Caucasians and Caucasoids.

[Padre Organtino]

I think both Georgians and Armenians are European gate-keepers. pop music, architecture , phenotype and religion habits of Spaiards and Russians are a world away, yet both are considered Europeans.

Georgians and Armenians: Peripherial Europeans

Azerbajanis: Middle Easterners

All three of them: Caucasians and Caucasoids.

Ok, as long as you don't put us into ME I'm fine with any category.:thumb001:

[Nairi]

I think both Georgians and Armenians are European gate-keepers. pop music, architecture , phenotype and religion habits of Spaiards and Russians are a world away, yet both are considered Europeans.

Georgians and Armenians: Peripherial Europeans

Azerbajanis: Middle Easterners

All three of them: Caucasians and Caucasoids.

I have objection :D

Azeris are not Caucasians/Caucasoids, only their assimilated indigeneous people of Caucasian Albania ( sister state of ancient Armenia, who practiced Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Christianity) are, they are Lezgins,Avars,Talysh and Udins, Udins are up to now Christians, and they all fight against Azeri genocide on them. They all want independence.

Azeris have higher Central Asian genes than even Turks have. You can compare most famous female singers in Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. as you can see "elite" of Azerbaijan consists of the dominant, ruling Azeri/Central Asian people.

Also, bare in mind, Azerbaijan is a member of Turkic world organization and a dreamer of Turan world.

KTZgBiyIiLU

[Raikaswinþs]

I have objection :D

Azeris are not Caucasians/Caucasoids, only their assimilated indigeneous people of Caucasian Albania ( sister state of ancient Armenia, who practiced Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Christianity) are, they are Lezgins,Avars,Talysh and Udins, Udins are up to now Christians, and they all fight against Azeri genocide on them. They all want independence.

Azeris have higher Central Asian genes than even Turks have. You can compare most famous female singers in Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. as you can see "elite" of Azerbaijan consists of the dominant, ruling Azeri/Central Asian people.

Also, bare in mind, Azerbaijan is a member of Turkic world organization and a dreamer of Turan world.

KTZgBiyIiLU

Genetic analysis consistently puts the Azeris from Zaerbajabn in line with Caucasian Albanian and other caucasian peoples, whereas Iranian Azerbajanis cluster with Iranians.

The fact that they are culturally Turks and that they have central Asian influences both culturally and in a part of its population doesn't alter that fact.

Azerbajani aren't Kazakhs. They are culturally related to Oghuz Turks, but genetically related to the regions they live in.

Now, speaking about personal experience, my (rare) encounters with Azeri people were very satisfactory. I found them to be a highly secularized and educated individuals. In terms of appearance they wouldn't be out of place anywhere in Eastern Europe. 2 of them looked like Russians, and two of them like Armenians.


Also as a big enthusiast of Jazz music , I just can't wait to visit the Baku festival. :D

frif-E6N-cs

I rest my case.

[Austrvegr]

The Georgian Royal family of Bagrationi was of an Armenian origins but by the time they became thi kings they were already Georgianized (not to mention that the other ruling dynasties that they merged with were not of Armenian origins).


Bagratids were of Iranic origin. And the royal dynasties that preceded them in Georgia were of Iranic origin too.

[Mordid]

I can't believe this thread is open again..

[Austrvegr]

Now, speaking about personal experience, my (rare) encounters with Azeri people were very satisfactory. I found them to be a highly secularized and educated individuals. In terms of appearance they wouldn't be out of place anywhere in Eastern Europe. 2 of them looked like Russians, and two of them like Armenians.


No Azeri looks like Russians. They stick out like sore thumbs in Russia.

[orangepulp]

Now you know why we dont want you in Europe......scratch beneath the surface and the ignorant middle eastern peasant is there to see.

Well when you attack what am I supposed to do, kiss your ass lol


Believe me if you ask me I disapprove the presence of every single Turk in Europe but not because I don't like European people, I like those who are fair and humble. I'm just against Europeans who are selfish, arrogant and dislike unity such as yourself. You people were the one accusing me of being a kiss ass so that's why I said we are learning the language of an enemy. In reality Islam orders us to be fair to those who are fair and to be arrogant to those who are arrogant.

[Padre Organtino]

No Azeri looks like Russians. They stick out like sore thumbs in Russia.

There are some that would pass as darker Tatars. In general they really look exotic, though.

[billErobreren]

Can they pass?!! well that's not for us to decide now, is it? more like the call of Armenians plus Euros differ in looks which makes this question a bit weirder.

I don't really care if they can't I actually like them & would even replace some undisputed Europeans with them

[PBachman]

Bagratids were of Iranic origin. And the royal dynasties that preceded them in Georgia were of Iranic origin too.

They were not Iranic, where do you get your information from? This is ridiculous statement. The Armenian families married among Parthians, this is as close as any Armenian gets to "Iranic". But the caveat here is that the Bagratuni family was never at the level to marry Parthian royals. They only come into power after the demise of the Mamikonians (around 6th century AD). Therefore, it would be a gap of a thousand years where an actual Armenian family married into a Parthian royal family and vice-versa. Please, if you don't know about the topic, don't make extreme statements like this. Claiming they may have "Parthian origins" is one thing, but claiming they are "Iranic" is another. As the two terms mean totally different times in both context, time, location, culture, and etc.

[Austrvegr]

They were not Iranic, where do you get your information from? This is ridiculous statement. The Armenian families married among Parthians, this is as close as any Armenian gets to "Iranic". But the caveat here is that the Bagratuni family was never at the level to marry Parthian royals. They only come into power after the demise of the Mamikonians (around 6th century AD). Therefore, it would be a gap of a thousand years where an actual Armenian family married into a Parthian royal family and vice-versa. Please, if you don't know about the topic, don't make extreme statements like this. Claiming they may have "Parthian origins" is one thing, but claiming they are "Iranic" is another. As the two terms mean totally different times in both context, time, location, culture, and etc.

The issue has been thoroughly examined by the genealogist Cyril Toumanoff.

[Comte Arnau]

Only those with a long sexy nose.

[Hess]

would even replace some undisputed Europeans with them

Like who, out of curiosity?

[PBachman]

The issue has been thoroughly examined by the genealogist Cyril Toumanoff.

Yes, I have read his work. He claims that:

"Bagatades, a commander under Tigranes the Great of Armenia and his viceroy in Syria and Cilicia in 83-69 BC, is thought to be the earliest known Bagratid. However, according to Cyril Toumanoff, the first historically chronicled Bagratids appear in 314 AD as the feudatories of Sper in northwestern Armenia (now northeastern Turkey), near the Iberian marchlands. Subsequently they ruled also in Kogovit and Tmoriq. Unlike most hereditary noble families (naxarars) in Armenia they held only strips of land, as opposed to the Mamikonians, who held a unified land territory.

And claims that the root of the name is;

"The root of the names Bagrationi and Bagratuni, Bagrat-, derives from the Old Persian Bagadāta, "God-Given". In Armenia and Georgia, the respective names for the Bagratid dynasties literally translate to "The children of/house established by Bagrat" (Bagrat + Classical Greek: - id, "the children")."

Furthermore:

"The Bagratids of Armenia are speculated to have been an offshoot of the Orontid Dynasty, Achaemenid satraps and, later, kings of Armenia (c 400 – c 200 BC). They had their original appanage in Bagrevand in historic north-central Armenia and claimed their descent from a solar deity Angl-Thork, the tutelary god of the Orontids, until their conversion to Christianity. "

The Orontids (Yervanduni noble house), some claim they were "Iranian in origin", but others claim they were Armenian. My personal belief is that they were Armenian. Given all the facts. Going back, Cyril never makes a assessment of the Bagratid origins, rather, he comments on the origins of the name. And for the most part, I don't think the origins of the name are important, as they could have changed it in order to appear more favorable to the ruling power. The oldest record of a Bagratid is in historic Armenia. In both cases, they are clearly Armenian in origin.

[Nairi]

Genetic analysis consistently puts the Azeris from Zaerbajabn in line with Caucasian Albanian and other Caucasian peoples, whereas Iranian Azerbajanis cluster with Iranians.

The fact that they are culturally Turks and that they have central Asian influences both culturally and in a part of its population doesn't alter that fact.

Azerbajani aren't Kazakhs. They are culturally related to Oghuz Turks, but genetically related to the regions they live in.

Now, speaking about personal experience, my (rare) encounters with Azeri people were very satisfactory. I found them to be a highly secularized and educated individuals. In terms of appearance they wouldn't be out of place anywhere in Eastern Europe. 2 of them looked like Russians, and two of them like Armenians.


Also as a big enthusiast of Jazz music , I just can't wait to visit the Baku festival. :D

frif-E6N-cs

I rest my case.

If they didn't have Central Asian looks then they are assimilated indigeneos people of caucasian Albania. Azeris have higher Central Asian genes than Turks. They invaded from Altay steppes. Only in 20 century they got a name "Azerbaijan" and were called Azeris, which is a Persian word. In Persian it means "land of fire"...Arran is Persian name for the land.


The territory of what is now the Republic of Azerbaijan was known as Caucasian Albania in antiquity, and later as Arran. The name of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic was chosen in 1918 by the Musavat Party in the wake of the collapse of the Russian Revolution of 1917.

And Musavat party is supported by Turkey.
Its initial name was a Muslim Democratic Musavat Party.

Until this people living in the territory were called Tartars in all Russian and foreign documents/books because of their looks and origin. They were also referred to as "Muslims" collectively because of various nations living together.

For example,Italian historian Luigi Villari visited South Caucasus in 1905 and this is an abstract from his book "Caucasus.Bloodshed and fire"


Numbers of isolated Armenians were caught by the Tartars while trying to escape and shot or cut to pieces. Some were induced to leave their hiding places by promises of safety, and then brutally murdered. At the

Melikoff works several Armenians who had taken refuge in a house were burnt to death with kerosene pumped in by the Tartars. …But amid these deeds of savage cruelty there shine also deeds of magnificent heroism. The way in which some Armenians brought women and children to places of safety or got water and provisions for the besieged under a heavy fire was beyond all praise. …In the meanwhile fighting and incendiarism had broken out on the Bibi Eybat oil-fields. The Pitoieff, Mantasheff, and other Armenian properties were set alight, and the properties of the English firms “Oleum” and B. O. R. N. were also damaged.

[Nairi]

Azerbaijan was secular during USSR where Bolsheviks suppresed religion. Now Azerbaijan is rapidly becoming Islamic, many Afgani Mujahedins are from Azerbaijan.

Azerbaijan was founded in 1918 by Musavat party.


Its initial name was a Muslim Democratic Musavat Party.
The Musavat's programme, which appealed to the Azerbaijani masses and assured the party of the sympathy of the Muslims abroad, announced the following aims:

1. The unity of all Muslim peoples without regard to nationality or sect.
2. Restoration of the independence of all Muslim nations.
3. Extension of material and moral aid to all Muslim nations which fight for their independence.
4. Help to all Muslim peoples and states in offence and in defence.
5. The destruction of the barriers which prevent the spread of the above-mentioned ideas.
6. The establishment of contact with parties striving for the progress of the Muslims.
7. The establishment, as need might arise, of contact and exchange of opinion with foreign parties which have the well being of humanity as their aim.
8. The intensification of the struggle for the existence of all Muslims and the development of their commerce, trade and economic life in general.[3]

In its early years before the first world war, Musavat was a relatively small, secret underground organization, much like its counterparts throughout the Middle East, working for the prosperity and political unity of the Muslim and Turkic-speaking world.[4] During this time, the Musavat party supported some pan-Islamist and pan-Turkist ideas.[5][6][7][8][9] Pan-Turkic element in Musavat's ideology was a reflection of the novel ideas of the Young Turk revolution in Ottoman Empire. The founders of this ideology were Azerbaijani intellectuals of Russian Empire, Ali-bey Huseynzadeh and Ahmed-bey Agayev (known in Turkey as Ahmet Ağaoğlu), whose literary works used the linguistic unity of Turkic-speaking peoples as a factor for national awakening of various nationalities inhabiting the Russian Empire.



In 1995, Madani al-Tayyib (then in the Sudan serving as Al-Qaida's chief financial officer) asked an Al-Qaida member to travel to Chechnya through Baku, Azerbaijan, to join with Al-Qaida in the fighting in Chechnya.

According to the State Department, Ibn al-Khattab, with Al-Qaeda's financial support, also mobilized mujahideen from Azerbaijan and the Russian republics of Dagestan, Ingushetia, and Ossetia.[74] Moscow is correct in asserting that the Chechen question cannot be contained to the borders of Chechyna. With external financing and subsidized mosques and Islamic schools spreading extremism in areas bordering Chechnya, the spread of Islamism is a real threat.[75]

[AFC_Lad]

From what I have gathered armenians seem closest to Europe.. for the point that

i can't really label them with other asian cultures, or arab cultures.

Second i dont get why armenians seem so keen on being european, from what i've seen you lot have a very unique and beautiful culture which can't really fit in anywhere with certainty, but if it did tilt somewhere it would be europe.

seen a number of turks posting in this thread.. i dont consider you anything close to European, apart from the numerous things you borrowed from surrounding cultures.

[billErobreren]

Like who, out of curiosity?

Albanians, Frenchies & a BIIIIG chuck of the Rusky population. :rolleyes2:

but relax there's only like 8 million-12 million Armenians worldwide so there's no way that can happen but I'll take them over Gypsies any day

[Hess]

Albanians, Frenchies & a BIIIIG chuck of the Rusky population. :rolleyes2:

but relax there's only like 8 million-12 million Armenians worldwide so there's no way that can happen but I'll take them over Gypsies any day

:eek:

I can understand why an post cold war American wouldn't like Russians, but what did the Frenchies do to you?

[Nairi]

Albanians, Frenchies & a BIIIIG chuck of the Rusky population. :rolleyes2:

but relax there's only like 8 million-12 million Armenians worldwide so there's no way that can happen but I'll take them over Gypsies any day

I am surprised on French people as well, but thanks for taking me over any Gypsy any day :D :D :D

[billErobreren]

:eek:

I can understand why a post cold war American wouldn't like Russians, but what did the Frenchies do to you?

It isn't exactly because of the cold war but whatever:rolleyes2:

as for Frenchies as a people I find them...annoying I didn't have a nice time in France & the people were a big part of why & I imagine they'd feel the same way about us so I wouldn't care if they said the same:wink

[Hess]

It isn't exactly because of the cold war but whatever:rolleyes2:

I didn't mean to assume, I just remembered my history teacher telling me that as a kid in high school, he was taught to hate Russians. I always thought that some of those attitudes were carried over to the current generation.



as for Frenchies as a people I find them...annoying I didn't have a nice time in France & the people were a big part of why & I imagine they'd feel the same way about us so I wouldn't care if they said the same:wink

fair enough. Some French people can have a snobby attitude, especially towards Americans.

[Nairi]

fair enough. Some French people can have a snobby attitude, especially towards Americans.


Not only to Americans but generally to English speaking people, I had that experience with a French man until I told him I am Armenian. lol

[Eva]

I hear many times people saying that the French people are snobby but I have wonderful French friends, and never noticed anything snobby about them. I feel so good in a French company :)

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Mahir Cagri: Turk of Armenian descent:

http://www.ikissyou.org/images1/hacc.jpg

[Nairi]

Mahir Cagri: Turk of Armenian descent:

http://www.ikissyou.org/images1/hacc.jpg

I don't see any information about him being Armenian, and judging by his Mecca pic and Muslim clothing he again has nothing to do with Armenians but is a Turk. Neither his name or surname is Armenian either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahir_%C3%87a%C4%9Fr%C4%B1

Mahir Çağrı
Born 1962
İzmir, Turkey
Nationality Turkish

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I don't see any information about him being Armenian, and judging by his Mecca pic and Muslim clothing he again has nothing to do with Armenians but is a Turk. Neither his name or surname is Armenian either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahir_%C3%87a%C4%9Fr%C4%B1

Mahir Çağrı
Born 1962
İzmir, Turkey
Nationality Turkish

He is one of those ultra light, blond eyed, blond haired Armenians we kidnapped. He is Armenian icognito and has a very Armenian phenotype.

[Nairi]

He is one of those ultra light, blond eyed, blond haired Armenians we kidnapped. He is Armenian icognito and has a very Armenian phenotype.

I am going to report your post for trying to lie and mislead TA community with false posts and when got caught trying to divert convo.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I am going to report your post for trying to lie and mislead TA community with false posts and when got caught trying to divert convo.
:confused::confused: You do that all the time.

[Zephyr]

us.

Am I surprised.


How is this "different" than say, the difference between Italian culture and German culture or Icelandic culture?

If you were here in Europe, you would know. I think I mentioned this before, but traditional armenian music and dance is inside the west asian spectrum and is nothing related to european music theory:

Can you feel?

PcsW7m2mafg

The structure is exactly the same of the Maklam, not Diatonic. Every piece of european music was brought to Armenia in the last 200 years by the Russians.


Names like Balthazar, Salazar, Armin, Herman, and etc...have origins in Armenia.

Herman is of Armenian origin? I see...

[Nairi]

:confused::confused: You do that all the time.

I never post any info which I can't confirm with links and never post false picture. You came here to provoke fights, to post false picture trying to pass a Turk as an Armenian. You were told by Loki to mind your language talking about us, now you thought presenting false picture might help your cause of slanderring us off.

[Austrvegr]

Yes, I have read his work. He claims that:

"Bagatades, a commander under Tigranes the Great of Armenia and his viceroy in Syria and Cilicia in 83-69 BC, is thought to be the earliest known Bagratid. However, according to Cyril Toumanoff, the first historically chronicled Bagratids appear in 314 AD as the feudatories of Sper in northwestern Armenia (now northeastern Turkey), near the Iberian marchlands. Subsequently they ruled also in Kogovit and Tmoriq. Unlike most hereditary noble families (naxarars) in Armenia they held only strips of land, as opposed to the Mamikonians, who held a unified land territory.

And claims that the root of the name is;

"The root of the names Bagrationi and Bagratuni, Bagrat-, derives from the Old Persian Bagadāta, "God-Given". In Armenia and Georgia, the respective names for the Bagratid dynasties literally translate to "The children of/house established by Bagrat" (Bagrat + Classical Greek: - id, "the children")."

Furthermore:

"The Bagratids of Armenia are speculated to have been an offshoot of the Orontid Dynasty, Achaemenid satraps and, later, kings of Armenia (c 400 – c 200 BC). They had their original appanage in Bagrevand in historic north-central Armenia and claimed their descent from a solar deity Angl-Thork, the tutelary god of the Orontids, until their conversion to Christianity. "

The Orontids (Yervanduni noble house), some claim they were "Iranian in origin", but others claim they were Armenian. My personal belief is that they were Armenian. Given all the facts. Going back, Cyril never makes a assessment of the Bagratid origins, rather, he comments on the origins of the name. And for the most part, I don't think the origins of the name are important, as they could have changed it in order to appear more favorable to the ruling power. The oldest record of a Bagratid is in historic Armenia. In both cases, they are clearly Armenian in origin.

I trust Toumanoff more than you. Bagratids were Iranic.

[Austrvegr]

Albanians, Frenchies & a BIIIIG chuck of the Rusky population. :rolleyes2:


No way, while the Brits have the Littorid subrace very similar to Caucasian Armenoids.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

I never post any info which I can't confirm with links and never post false picture. You came here to provoke fights, to post false picture trying to pass a Turk as an Armenian. You were told by Loki to mind your language talking about us, now you thought presenting false picture might help your cause of slanderring us off.

My language is fine, I rarely do insults unless really lose my patients. If i have offended anyone is likely he offended me as much. And all your links come from very dubious sources and youve told many times why.

[Nairi]

Am I surprised.



If you were here in Europe, you would know. I think I mentioned this before, but traditional armenian music and dance is inside the west asian spectrum and is nothing related to european music theory:

Can you feel?

PcsW7m2mafg

The structure is exactly the same of the Maklam, not Diatonic. Every piece of european music was brought to Armenia in the last 200 years by the Russians.



Herman is of Armenian origin? I see...

And I am not surprised to see you here again with the same BS...

You are wrong, Armenians gave Russians much more than they took from them, in fact Armenians also gave a lot to Europe and took as well, like this...


Armenian opera is the art of opera in Armenia or opera by Armenian composers. The founder of the Armenian operatic tradition was Dikran Tchouhadjian (1837-98), who was born in Constantinople in the Ottoman Empire and received his musical education in Milan, where he became a great admirer of Verdi. He was a political and musical nationalist who mixed Western and Armenian influences in his work.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Tigranchukha.jpg/220px-Tigranchukha.jpg

Also, half of Europe is eating original Armenian food as their traditional calling it "Ottoman" or "Midle Eastern"...

[Nairi]

I trust Toumanoff more than you. Bagratids were Iranic.

No,Bagratids were Armenians but many famous Russians were in fact Armenians or half Armenians, like Lazarevs and Suvorov.

[Nairi]

My language is fine, I rarely do insults unless really lose my patients. If i have offended anyone is likely he offended me as much. And all your links come from very dubious sources and youve told many times why.

You are lying , you have insulted me while I haven't even responded to you, so Loki made the right decision, my source was Armenian genocie website and I don't debate genocide with Turks, what you posted here was a clear cut provocation and a lie. I hope Mods will pay attention at the fact it is not the fist time you are harassing Armenians. You should be banned.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

You are lying , you have insulted me while I haven't even responded to you, so Loki made the right decision, my source was Armenian genocie website and I don't debate genocide with Turks, what you posted here was a clear cut provocation and a lie. I hope Mods will pay attention at the fact it is not the fist time you are harassing Armenians. You should be banned.

Most of your posts are accusations of this type or saying people "engage in BS" rather than actual content.

[Nairi]

Most of your posts are accusations of this type or saying people "engage in BS" rather than actual content.

You are free to report me, like I reported you for deliberate FALSE picture ...

[Zephyr]

I've no time now but you'll have a proper reply from me later today. Daft chick.

[Nairi]

You'll have a proper reply today. Daft chick.

I'll report you as well, I don't call anyone names and don't appreciate such attitude towards myself.
You have spent an hour here without replying.Take your time, get prepaired LMAO

P.S.
What is the difference between Turk loosing temper and insulting and yourself?

[billErobreren]

No way, while the Brits have the Littorid subrace very similar to Caucasian Armenoids.

I said it can't happen anyways:cool: Their populations are too large for a replacement but Albania on the other hand:icon_ask:

[PBachman]

I've no time now but you'll have a proper reply from me later today. Daft chick.


Am I surprised.



If you were here in Europe, you would know. I think I mentioned this before, but traditional armenian music and dance is inside the west asian spectrum and is nothing related to european music theory:

Can you feel?

PcsW7m2mafg

The structure is exactly the same of the Maklam, not Diatonic. Every piece of european music was brought to Armenia in the last 200 years by the Russians.



Herman is of Armenian origin? I see...

Herman originates from Armenia. It is derivative of Armen. The rest Nairi addressed.


I trust Toumanoff more than you. Bagratids were Iranic.

I quoted from Toumanov. Bagratids could not have been "Iranic". I quoted from Toumanov, who you claim is an expert, claiming that the earliest evidence of the family was (a) a commander under Tigran the Great and (b) having a fiefdom in a border area of Armenia. Go back read my post, as you seem to be disagreeing with Toumanov now.

[Zephyr]

Report, report everything like the hasbarah. You'll find that you can only report one post each two hours. It has anti-whining protection.

Look at the quickness that you reply with. I could not even add a proper edit. Obsessively refreshing a forum... Wow.

[PBachman]

Most of your posts are accusations of this type or saying people "engage in BS" rather than actual content.

Now that is some BS. You start showing pictures of Turks and claim they are Armenian and then get mad when people call you out on your clear provocations. Furthermore, why are you putting up stuff like that on this thread unless you want to provoke.

[Zephyr]

I'll report you as well, I don't call anyone names and don't appreciate such attitude towards myself.
You have spent an hour here without replying.Take your time, get prepaired LMAO

P.S.
What is the difference between Turk loosing temper and insulting and yourself?

I have a life, you weirdo.

[Nairi]

Report, report everything like the hasbarah. You'll find that you can only report one post each two hours. It has anti-whining protection.

Look at the quickness that you reply with. I could not even add a proper edit. Obsessively refreshing a forum... Wow.

Getting personal helps you to make your point? What's the difference in your and Bozkurt's behaviour? There is none.

This forum is for discussions and not insults, if you can't behave like a normal man, should it be European or not, then hopefully Mods will make you.

I might be obsessed, the question is why you are so obsessed with us to lie about us? I told you before about Armenians taking from Europe European music, you knowing it, posted as if Russian gaves it to us...

And I didn't know there is 2 ours interval, since I never had to report twice, but you seem to be good at it lol

[PBachman]

I might be obsessed, the question is why you are so obsessed with us to lie about us? I told you before about Armenians taking from Europe European music, you knowing it, posted as if Russian gaves it to us...

Exactly.

[Nairi]

I have a life, you weirdo.

Really, that's why you hang out on every thread mentioning Armenians?

More insults? lol

[PBachman]

Really, that's why you hang out on every thread mentioning Armenians?

Exactly.

[Austrvegr]

No,Bagratids were Armenians but many famous Russians were in fact Armenians or half Armenians, like Lazarevs and Suvorov.

Bagratids were Iranic like almost all Armenian nobility.

Suvorov was at most quarter Armenian, more likely even less, otherwise he would not have looked so Nordid.

[Nairi]

Bagratids were Iranic like almost all Armenian nobility.

Suvorov was at most quarter Armenian, more likely even less, otherwise he would not have looked so Nordid.

Tumanoff who you are swearing with also confirms Bagratids like all other nobility was Armenian, and Suvorov's mother was from famous Armenian nobility Manukov/Manukyan of Artsakh/Nagorno Karabakh, that's why Suvorov didn't have Mongol features. Many famous Russians have Armenian origin or some other, like Pushkin, the most famous poet of Russia was Afro/Arab. Armenians were instrumnetal in Russia from day one, that is the only truth.

[Ar-Man]

I'm pure Armenian, so you can do your conclusion how many other Europeans will pass as Armenians, without a single problem :coffee:

[cilicia]

Most Armenian royal dynastic descendants that have been genetically tested are native to Armenia, not Iran.

[Bloodraven]

Herman originates from Armenia. It is derivative of Armen.


Where do you people get that stuff from? ffs...



HERMAN

Means "army man", derived from the Germanic elements hari "army" and man "man". It was introduced to England by the Normans, died out, and was revived in the English-speaking world in the 19th century. It was borne by a 18th-century Russian missionary to Alaska who is venerated as a saint in the Orthodox Church. Another famous bearer was Herman Melville (1819-1891), the author of 'Moby-Dick'.

[Ar-Man]

Most Armenian royal dynastic descendants that have been genetically tested are native to Armenia, not Iran.

Besides Arshakuni-s there's no other Dynasties coming from Iranians, but even them had Armenian genes, otherwise they could never be accepted by Armenian Nakharars :old

[Eva]

Where do you people get that stuff from? ffs...

Germanic and Armenian are both Indo-European languages and many words are shared, but Arman, Erman has its initial roots in Armen-ian.

[Bloodraven]

Germanic and Armenian are both Indo-European languages and many words are shared, but Arman, Erman has its initial roots in Armen-ian.

Fine, but Herman does NOT originate from Armen or any other Armenian name.

[Eva]

Besides Arshakuni-s there's no other Dynasties coming from Iranians, but even them had Armenian genes, otherwise they could never be accepted by Armenian Nakharars :old

Lol, yes, Armenians, by today's psychology, would be considered ultra racist :D

Once a black African told me that Armenians were racist because they didn't mix with Arabs and Turks etc..lol

[Lisa]

Tumanoff who you are swearing with also confirms Bagratids like all other nobility was Armenian, and Suvorov's mother was from famous Armenian nobility Manukov/Manukyan of Artsakh/Nagorno Karabakh, that's why Suvorov didn't have Mongol features. Many famous Russians have Armenian origin or some other, like Pushkin, the most famous poet of Russia was Afro/Arab. Armenians were instrumnetal in Russia from day one, that is the only truth.

It's really funny. Stupid Armenian fiction. Read the biography of Suvorov .... Pushkin is only 1 / 8 "Afro-Arab."

You Armenians are very strange people. This is your habit to lie abominably.

[Aviane]

I can't see why Armenians cannot pass for Europeans.

They can fit into some parts of Southeastern Europe.

[PBachman]

It's really funny. Stupid Armenian fiction. Read the biography of Suvorov .... Pushkin is only 1 / 8 "Afro-Arab."

You Armenians are very strange people. This is your habit to lie abominably.

Yeah ... coming from you ... it is VERY believable. :mad:

You show clear signs of holding a bias against Armenians. What good is your opinion here?


Fine, but Herman does NOT originate from Armen or any other Armenian name.

Yes, it does, but suppose it does not? Suppose I made a mistake. Lets entertain the idea, why are you so adamant in arguing with on this point? You really are obsessed.


Bagratids were Iranic like almost all Armenian nobility.

Suvorov was at most quarter Armenian, more likely even less, otherwise he would not have looked so Nordid.

Again, coming from you, a user with a known history of holding a bias, again, like Nero, your opinion means zero to me.


Most Armenian royal dynastic descendants that have been genetically tested are native to Armenia, not Iran.

Exactly, I just entertain their idea because these folks clearly are looking for a reason to put down Armenians or distort our history. Clearly, none of what they write makes any sense academically and, to me or any student of history, it is baseless and laughable. It is already evident that there is a double standard on these boards with regards to Armenians.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Bias, bias bias, bias, you sound like a broken record. The only ones with a bias to agrandish your own ethnic groups are yourselves.

[PBachman]

"Hermann or Herrmann is a German given name (meaning "army man" or "warrior"), and might refer to:"

"Herrmann or Hermann der Cherusker, 'Arminius', Germanic leader opposed to Roman conquest and victor of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest"

It does not take a genius to see the connection at this point.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

"Hermann or Herrmann is a German given name (meaning "army man" or "warrior"), and might refer to:"

"Herrmann or Hermann der Cherusker, 'Arminius', Germanic leader opposed to Roman conquest and victor of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest"

It does not take a genius to see the connection at this point.

So for you the surname Hayes comes from Hayastan as well? You are seeing the connection just because you want to.

[PBachman]

Bias, bias bias, bias, you sound like a broken record. The only ones with a bias to agrandish your own ethnic groups are yourselves.

Right...coming from you it is truly laughable. You come to a "European preservationist board" and later, insult folks by calling Europeans "enemies". Clearly, you do see how laughable your opinion is? And did an "Armenian twist your arm" then as well?

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Right...coming from you it is truly laughable. You come to a "European preservationist board" and later, insult folks by calling Europeans "enemies". Clearly, you do see how laughable your opinion is? And did an "Armenian twist your arm" then as well?

I have never called Europeans enemies. I don't have this enemy tribal mentality. And what's the matter if I am in an European preservationist board? You are as well and Armenians are not any more European than us.

[PBachman]

So for you the surname Hayes comes from Hayastan as well? You are seeing the connection just because you want to.

Again, you are distorting what I write. You don't look at names that way. You need to look at Proto-German and see how it translates then and that is exactly what I am doing. I am not take the modern construct of "Hermann" and claiming it is "Armen", rather, I am looking at Proto-German. Anyways, to you, all is the same, as you don't have an honest interest in the truth. I would put you on ignore, but then, I wouldn't be able to counter your bogus claims.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Again, you are distorting what I write. You don't look at names that way. You need to look at Proto-German and see how it translates then and that is exactly what I am doing. I am not take the modern construct of "Hermann" and claiming it is "Armen", rather, I am looking at Proto-German. Anyways, to you, all is the same, as you don't have an honest interest in the truth. I would put you on ignore, but then, I wouldn't be able to counter your bogus claims.

If it's proto-Germanic then it can't come from Armenia. Unless you think proto-Indo European started in Armenia? :lol00002:

[PBachman]

You are as well and Armenians are not any more European than us.

Another bogus claim, in your head, you can't phantom that Armenians are European because, again, in your head, it would mean "Armenians are better than Turks". This is your warped and distorted psychology. First, the idea that "if Armenians are, then Turks are", when in fact, culturally, linguistically, and etc. Turks an extreme group compared to both Armenians and Europeans, while. You can clearly reconcile Armenian with European, but you can never reconcile Turk with European. Second, the more degenerate way of thinking, that "Armenians can't be better than Turks;thus, they can't be European". Armenians "can't have done xyz because then they would be 'better than us'". It is really evident in what you write. You really can never appreciate the truth. The truth does not imply "X is better than Y", rather, it is just an axiom. It just exists irrespective of interest and how others feel about it.

[Gaztelu]

Names like Balthazar, Salazar, Armin, Herman, and etc...have origins in Armenia.

For fuck's sake. . .

I will respond later with a proper post.

[PBachman]

If it's proto-Germanic then it can't come from Armenia. Unless you think proto-Indo European started in Armenia? :lol00002:

You wouldn't understand even if explained it to you, as you are not interested in the truth.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Another bogus claim, in your head, you can't phantom that Armenians are European because, again, in your head, it would mean "Armenians are better than Turks". This is your warped and distorted psychology.

My head my head my head, my head is not the discussion again. I do not care if Armenians are better than Turks (even if they evidently are not). When I say Armenians are not Europeans, I just mean that: that they do not belong in Europe just like we do.




First, the idea that "if Armenians are, then Turks are", when in fact, culturally, linguistically, and etc. Turks an extreme group compared to both Armenians and Europeans, while.

It's more like "both" are. We're quite related ethnic groups. We're a bridge between the Balkans and Middle East. You however are closer to Middle East.




You can clearly reconcile Armenian with European, but you can never reconcile Turk with European. Second, the more degenerate way of thinking

It's not about reconciliation. It's about general culture, behavior, similarity. Some previous past conflicts don't have a say- Let's be objetive.



that "Armenians can't be better than Turks;thus, they can't be European". Armenians "can't have done xyz because then they would be 'better than us'".

That is only very up on your mind. You seem to be constantly thinking to be better than us. We don't.



It is really evident in what you write. You really can never appreciate the truth. The truth does not imply "X is better than Y", rather, it is just an axiom. It just exists irrespective of interest and how others feel about it.

The point is that you rarely post truths, more like ramblings like this i then quote.

[PBachman]

For fuck's sake. . .

I will respond later with a proper post.

Baghdasar and Sanasar in Armenian translate as Balthazar and Salazar. You need to stop acting surprised. Are you gonna claim these names, who predate European civilization, are also non-Armenian when you have the oldest use of these names in historic Armenia?

[PBachman]

My head my head my head, my head is not the discussion again. I do not care if Armenians are better than Turks (even if they evidently are not). When I say Armenians are not Europeans, I just mean that: that they do not belong in Europe just like we do.




It's more like "both" are. We're quite related ethnic groups. We're a bridge between the Balkans and Middle East. You however are closer to Middle East.




It's not about reconciliation. It's about general culture, behavior, similarity. Some previous past conflicts don't have a say- Let's be objetive.



That is only very up on your mind. You seem to be constantly thinking to be better than us. We don't.



The point is that you rarely post truths, more like ramblings like this i then quote.

Right...look mate ... stop replying to my posts. I stopped reading when you again claimed that "Turks are not" ten that implies "Armenians are not". In your little distorted image of how things are, you believe that Turks are "more European" than Armenians, when in fact, the comparison can not even be made. Furthermore, what ever culture ties you have European is through the native populations that predate in the are like Armenians, Greeks, and etc. As I don't even want to argue the rest because you are trying to flip the argument around like you usually do. This is the only tactic you possess. Armenians claim you did xyz, you claim Armenians did xyz. There is no progress because you don't want to admit your are wrong and we are right. Furthermore, you are neither interested in the truth nor have an interest in Armenians.

[Ar-Man]

Fine, but Herman does NOT originate from Armen or any other Armenian name.

:evil


Arminius (18/17 BC – AD 21), also known as Armin or Hermann

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Right...look mate ... stop replying to my posts. I stopped reading when you again claimed that "Turks are not" ten that implies "Armenians are not". In your little distorted image of how things are, you believe that Turks are "more European" than Armenians, when in fact, the comparison can not even be made.

What the fuck? Stop the strawmans and get to my actual post.



Furthermore, what ever culture ties you have European is through the native populations that predate in the are like Armenians, Greeks, and etc.

So only Greeks and Armenians are the only people that ever lived in Turkey? What about all the ones contemporaneos and predating them?



As I don't even want to argue the rest because you are trying to flip the argument around like you usually do. This is the only tactic you possess. Armenians claim you did xyz, you claim Armenians did xyz. There is no progress. Furthermore, you are neither interest in the truth nor have an interest in Armenians.

You're the one flipping out with your psycho ramblings. You have no interest in truth, just in aggrandising your ethnos for validation.

[PBachman]

What the fuck? Stop the strawmans and get to my actual post.



So only Greeks and Armenians are the only people that ever lived in Turkey? What about all the ones contemporaneos and predating them?



You're the one flipping out with your psycho ramblings. You have no interest in truth, just in aggrandising your ethnos for validation.

Right... first, go read my post. I claimed "Armenians, Greeks, and etc."...this means et al. (and others). You need to improve your basic reading comprehension skills.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Right... first, go read my post. I claimed "Armenians, Greeks, and etc."...this means et al. (and others). You need to improve your basic reading comprehension skills.

Those "etc." are more important than Greeks and Armenians. You need to improve your basic writing and redacting skills.

[Gaztelu]

For fuck's sake. . .

I will respond later with a proper post.


Baghdasar and Sanasar in Armenian translate as Balthazar and Salazar. You need to stop acting surprised. Are you gonna claim these names, who predate European civilization, are also non-Armenian when you have the oldest use of these names in historic Armenia?

Yes, I will.

Salazar is the Castilianized form of the Basque placename Zaraitzu, which (the Castilianized form) was adopted by a noble family during the Middle Ages.

[Bloodraven]

"Hermann or Herrmann is a German given name (meaning "army man" or "warrior"), and might refer to:"

"Herrmann or Hermann der Cherusker, 'Arminius', Germanic leader opposed to Roman conquest and victor of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest"

It does not take a genius to see the connection at this point.

Arminius is a romanized form of Herman. Now what? Wait let me guess...
Arminius was ARmenian, amirite?

[Ar-Man]

Arminius is a romanized form of Herman. Now what? Wait let me guess...
Arminius was ARmenian, amirite?

:D Oh man, I knew that the ravens are annoying animals.
Arminius derives from German Irmin = Big, great.... in the other hand the word Herman = armed man, appeared few centuries later :coffee:
And Irmina is how Persian are pronouncing Armenia for example :wink the connection is obvious, but I think ravens have very limited capacity to perceive things.

Look at the article in Turkish version :rotfl


Arminius Armen (MÖ 17/18 - M.S. 21) ......

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius

[Bloodraven]

:D Oh man, I knew that the ravens are annoying animals.
Arminuis derives from German Irmin = Big, great.... in the other hand the word Herman = armed man, appeared few centuries later :coffee:
And Irmina is how Persian are pronouncing Armenia for example :wink the connection is obvious, but I think ravens have very limited capacity to perceive things.

It's pointless to argue with you AR-gangsters, but I will say that contrary to popular belief ravens are very intelligent creatures and in fact the smartest bird on the planet.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

:D Oh man, I knew that the ravens are annoying animals.
Arminuis derives from German Irmin = Big, great.... in the other hand the word Herman = armed man, appeared few centuries later :coffee:
And Irmina is how Persian are pronouncing Armenia for example :wink the connection is obvious, but I think ravens have very limited capacity to perceive things.

Look at the article in Turkish version :rotfl



http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius

Persians call Armenia as Hayastan.

[Ar-Man]

It's pointless to argue with you AR-gangsters, but I will say that contrary to popular belief ravens are very intelligent creatures and in fact the smartest bird on the planet.

Of course it's pointless when you have no arguments ! :wink

[Ar-Man]

Persians call Armenia as Hayastan.

Հայաստան (Hayastan) is a term used for Armenian Republic, the historical Armenia is calles Հայք(Hayq) = land of ARmenians, no one else besides Armenians call the republic of ARmenia as Hayastan, and in Behisunian Inscription Armenia is Mentioned as Irmina or Arminia ;)

[Bloodraven]

Of course it's pointless when you have no arguments ! :wink

No, it's pointless to argue because you bring up retarded, far-fetched claims that one doesn't know where to start refuting them. And if someone did have the patience to respond to you and your gang you come up with even more retarded theories and resort to childish name-calling.

[Ar-Man]

No, it's pointless to argue because you bring up retarded, far-fetched claims that one doesn't know where to start refuting them. And if someone did have the patience to respond to you and your gang you come up with even more retarded theories and resort to childish name-calling.

I'm speaking with linguistic arguments, in the opposite you have some mambo jumbo about ravens as intelligent animals, and some denial based on unknown psycho-problems :wink
Nobody ask you to involve in Armenian topics!!!! :wink So just stay away & live happy !

[PBachman]

Yes, I will.

Salazar is the Castilianized form of the Basque placename Zaraitzu, which (the Castilianized form) was adopted by a noble family during the Middle Ages.

Well, Sanasar predates what you just cited. Therefore, why are you arguing with me now? Sanasar is clearly Salazar and the earliest use of the name is in Armenian oral tradition. I don't get it, why are you arguing with me? I disagree with you, as I have cited an earlier use of the name.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Well, Sanasar predates what you just cited. Therefore, why are you arguing with me now? Sanasar is clearly Salazar and the earliest use of the name is in Armenian oral tradition. I don't get it, why are you arguing with me? I disagree with you, as I have cited an earlier use of the name.

LOL, you are helpless!!! Get some help you crazy ranter!! Basque language is far older than Armenian.

[PBachman]

No, it's pointless to argue because you bring up retarded, far-fetched claims that one doesn't know where to start refuting them. And if someone did have the patience to respond to you and your gang you come up with even more retarded theories and resort to childish name-calling.

Right ... "AR - Gangsters"...go back and read my comments. Check the order of replies, you seem to have a selective memory.

[PBachman]

LOL, you are helpless!!! Get some help you crazy ranter!! Basque language is far older than Armenian.

How did Armenians get the name Sanasar then? Are you saying that the Basque magically appeared hundreds of years before in historic Armenia? Does your timeline and logic makes sense? No. Clearly, Sanazar = Salazar and Baghdasar = Balthazar and the name must have gone east via earlier contact between proto-basque. As for your comments regarding "Basque language", it could be the oldest language on the European continent, but it is not the oldest if you compare to the ancient populations of Anatolia and the Armenian highlands. The basque and these populations in Anatolia and the Armenian highlands were most likely contemporaries. It could have been the case that an expansive civilization in Anatolia like the Hurrians took the name there, as much of the art of the Hurrians, latter Urartu, look similar to the art of the Aegean. They must have had contact with these populations.

[Nairi]

LOL, you are helpless!!! Get some help you crazy ranter!! Basque language is far older than Armenian.

Ok, dear Bozkurt,
How old is Basque language estimated? Armenian language is older than 8.500 years.(Atkinson,Gray)


Let me tell you about name Hayastan :) You can even visit land of Hayk, Turks are being surprised to see good attitude of people in Armenia on the contrary of what they belive.

....
Hittite inscriptions deciphered in the 1920s by the Swiss scholar Emil Forrer,Hugo Winckler (German archaeologist and historian) and Bedřich Hrozný(Czech orientalist and linguist) testify to the existence of a mountain country, the HAYasa, lying around the Lake of Van/Armenian Highland.

The suffix sa of Hayasa corresponds to the stan, derivative of Hayasatan (Armenia). Greeks knew about this country (Hayasa) and their writers wrote about Armenians or hayers.
...
The Armenian people derive their self-designative name "Hay" from the Deity - HAY(A), whom they regarded as "the Creator of the Cosmos."
According to several scholars the name HAY(A) comes from the primordial root name AY or AYA which goes back all the way to the Neolithic Era and the early veneration of the cult of the Mother Goddess that also gave her name to later (masculine) God HAY(A).
The God HAYA-EA was also venerated throughout Mesopotamia. The earliest surviving inscriptions that mention HAY(A) - the "God of Wisdom" and the "God of Cosmic Waters" are found in the Sumerian inscriptions dated to ca. 2,800 BCE.
The God EA-HAYA was also later venerated by the Akkadians who knew him under the name of Enki.
The Eblaic (an ancient city in Syria) inscriptions dated to ca. 2,600 BCE also mention both a Deity and a people by the name of "HAY" who lived in the Armenian Highland.
The name "Hay" was also used by the Hittites to refer to Armenia and the Armenian people.
The Hittite inscriptions from around 1,500 BCE record the history of the kingdom of Hayasa (with the root word Hay and the Hittite ending - "asa," connoting a place) situated in Armenian Highland.
The name Hay also lived on in the name of Hayk, the traditional patriach of the Armenian people, as recorded by a number of medieval historians.
Hayk was regarded by the Armenian people as the divine offspring of the primordial God of Essence - HAY(A).
"Father of Armenian history", an Armenian historian (5 th century) Movses Khorenatsi narrates the story of Japeth's grandson (through Torgom), Hayk and his descendents, the Hays (as Armenians call themselves).
The oldest known ancestors of modern Armenians, the Hayasa-Azzi tribes, also known as Proto-Armenians, were indigenous to the Armenian Highland.
These tribes formed the Nairi tribal union, which existed until late 13th century BC.
The legendary forefather of Armenians, Hayk, famous for his battles with Babylonian ruler Bel was one of the Hayasa tribal leaders.
Հայք Hayk' is the nominative plural in Classical Armenian of հայ (hay) and is also a popular Armenian name.
The native Armenian name for the country is Hayk'. The name in the Middle Ages was extended to Hayastan,by addition of the Indo-European suffix -stan (land).

There was a Bronze Age tribe of the Armens (Armans, Armani; Armenian: Արմեններ Armenner, Առամեններ Aṙamenner), either identical to or forming a subset of the Hayasa-Azzi.[11][12] In this case, Armenia would be an ethnonym rather than a toponym

# ^ Elisabeth Bauer. Armenia: Past and Present (1981), p. 49

...............
^ Anne Elizabeth Redgate, The Armenians, Wiley-Blackwell, 2000 ISBN 9780631220374, p. 24. The name Hayk' is from the earliest record identified with Armenians from Sumerian inscriptions around 2700 BC, in which the Armenians are referred to as the sons of Haya, after the regional god of the Armenian Highlands.
.......
Luigi Villari
FIRE AND SWORD IN THE CAUCASUS

"The Land of Ararat"

"We are now in the true Armenia, the original home of the Haik people.

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Ok, dear Bozkurt,
How old is Basque languae estimated? Armenian language is older than 8.500 years.(Atkinson,Gray)


Let me tell you about name Hayastan :) You can even visit land of Hayk, Turks are being surprised to see good attitude of people in Armenia on the contrary of what they belive.

....
Hittite inscriptions deciphered in the 1920s by the Swiss scholar Emil Forrer,Hugo Winckler (German archaeologist and historian) and Bedřich Hrozný(Czech orientalist and linguist) testify to the existence of a mountain country, the HAYasa, lying around the Lake of Van/Armenian Highland.

The suffix sa of Hayasa corresponds to the stan, derivative of Hayasatan (Armenia). Greeks knew about this country (Hayasa) and their writers wrote about Armenians or hayers.
...
The Armenian people derive their self-designative name "Hay" from the Deity - HAY(A), whom they regarded as "the Creator of the Cosmos."
According to several scholars the name HAY(A) comes from the primordial root name AY or AYA which goes back all the way to the Neolithic Era and the early veneration of the cult of the Mother Goddess that also gave her name to later (masculine) God HAY(A).
The God HAYA-EA was also venerated throughout Mesopotamia. The earliest surviving inscriptions that mention HAY(A) - the "God of Wisdom" and the "God of Cosmic Waters" are found in the Sumerian inscriptions dated to ca. 2,800 BCE.
The God EA-HAYA was also later venerated by the Akkadians who knew him under the name of Enki.
The Eblaic (an ancient city in Syria) inscriptions dated to ca. 2,600 BCE also mention both a Deity and a people by the name of "HAY" who lived in the Armenian Highland.
The name "Hay" was also used by the Hittites to refer to Armenia and the Armenian people.
The Hittite inscriptions from around 1,500 BCE record the history of the kingdom of Hayasa (with the root word Hay and the Hittite ending - "asa," connoting a place) situated in Armenian Highland.
The name Hay also lived on in the name of Hayk, the traditional patriach of the Armenian people, as recorded by a number of medieval historians.
Hayk was regarded by the Armenian people as the divine offspring of the primordial God of Essence - HAY(A).
"Father of Armenian history", an Armenian historian (5 th century) Movses Khorenatsi narrates the story of Japeth's grandson (through Torgom), Hayk and his descendents, the Hays (as Armenians call themselves).
The oldest known ancestors of modern Armenians, the Hayasa-Azzi tribes, also known as Proto-Armenians, were indigenous to the Armenian Highland.
These tribes formed the Nairi tribal union, which existed until late 13th century BC.
The legendary forefather of Armenians, Hayk, famous for his battles with Babylonian ruler Bel was one of the Hayasa tribal leaders.
Հայք Hayk' is the nominative plural in Classical Armenian of հայ (hay) and is also a popular Armenian name.
The native Armenian name for the country is Hayk'. The name in the Middle Ages was extended to Hayastan,by addition of the Indo-European suffix -stan (land).

There was a Bronze Age tribe of the Armens (Armans, Armani; Armenian: Արմեններ Armenner, Առամեններ Aṙamenner), either identical to or forming a subset of the Hayasa-Azzi.[11][12] In this case, Armenia would be an ethnonym rather than a toponym

# ^ Elisabeth Bauer. Armenia: Past and Present (1981), p. 49

...............
^ Anne Elizabeth Redgate, The Armenians, Wiley-Blackwell, 2000 ISBN 9780631220374, p. 24. The name Hayk' is from the earliest record identified with Armenians from Sumerian inscriptions around 2700 BC, in which the Armenians are referred to as the sons of Haya, after the regional god of the Armenian Highlands.
.......
Luigi Villari
FIRE AND SWORD IN THE CAUCASUS

"The Land of Ararat"

"We are now in the true Armenia, the original home of the Haik people.

Basque language is older than 12,000 years ago.


Old is right. Long before the Romans or even the much earlier Celts had spread over their lands, the Basques occupied the southern corner of the Bay of Biscay, as they do today. Exactly how old the Basques are is not known, but the culture dates back at least to Palaeolithic times, which makes their language the most ancient language of Europe in terms of continuous occupation of the territory where it spoken. As old as those hills that isolated it from the Indo-European tidal wave which washed traces of all other prehistoric tongues from the mouth and ear of mankind.

[Nairi]

Basque language is older than 12,000 years ago.

Bozkurt, dear, I asked for scientific proof from world leading linguists on Basque language like the case is with Armenian language which according to other leading linguists (ivanov,Gamkrelidze) is the Mother Aryan language from which all Indo-European languages derived.

Are you now planning to visit land of Hayq? ;)

[Ar-Man]

Ծո լավ էլի հայեր, գեդնին ընգաձ էր հարիֆը, էնքան քացով տվիք էլի ոդի էլավ, բան ու գորձ չունի՞ք էլ: :tsk:

[Nairi]

Mi ban el :p


AR. HAR, ER, HER, YER, HOR, KHAR, KHOR, UR. HUR. KHUR have the same meaning

The name (Armenia) is connected to the Indo-European root Ar- meaning "assemble/create" which is vastly used in names of or regarding the Sun, light, or fire, found in Ararat, Aryan, Arta etc

T. V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov, The Early History of Indo-European (aka Aryan) Languages, Scientific American, March 1990;

James P. Mallory, "Kuro-Araxes Culture", Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, Fitzroy Dearborn, 1997
....
If you watch the video you can see that all Sun Gods in all Indo-European languages derive from AR...

Interestingly Persians are a nation which never denies.Also Greeks.

Comments on the video

From Persian:

"In old Persia The sun is Called "Hoar". That's Ho+Ar. Ho means good Ar means pure. it evolved to "khor" in new Persian. Sun god, Mithra our common deity."

From Greek
"There isn't a single word in Greek starting with AR that has a negative meaning (except the word ARnitiko=negative, no), all the words have a positive meaning and show progress, war, nobility and work:

ARis=the god of war

ARchon=Leader, Lord

ARimanios=War lover

ARtios=Perfect

ARono=to plugh

ARmego=to milk

I believe the mother land of the so-called Indoeuropeans (Greco-Armenio-Iranians) and the birth place of Greek civilization is the Anatolian plato."

jVc8jbGGdE0

[Bozkurt_Karabash]

Bozkurt, dear, I asked for scientific proof from world leading linguists on Basque language like the case is with Armenian language which according to other leading linguists (ivanov,Gamkrelidze) is the Mother Aryan language from which all Indo-European languages derived.

Are you now planning to visit land of Hayq? ;)

I Would advice you to get some basic knowledge because first Armenian is not a Mother Aryan language (that's a unscientific bullshit term). Armenian is another derived language just like Persian, Bengali, Greek, Slavic, etc... It is not a "Mother tongue" as not many tongues are derived from Armenian.

And second: Basque does not come from indo-european :lol00002:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ծո լավ էլի հայեր, գեդնին ընգաձ էր հարիֆը, էնքան քացով տվիք էլի ոդի էլավ, բան ու գորձ չունի՞ք էլ: :tsk:

Armenian looks like upside down Greek...

[Nairi]

I Would advice you to get some basic knowledge because first Armenian is not a Mother Aryan language (that's a unscientific bullshit term). Armenian is another derived language just like Persian, Bengali, Greek, Slavic, etc... It is not a "Mother tongue" as not many tongues are derived from Armenian.

And second: Basque does not come from indo-european :lol00002:

I never said it does.
Well, I didn't invent anything, I said what world leading linguists like Ivanov and Gamkrelidse say about all Indo-European languages deriving from Armenian. You can deny, it is your right.But it doesn't change anything.

[Mordid]

There, there..

[Nairi]

Ok, Ok...lol

[Eva]

Mi ban el :p



The name (Armenia) is connected to the Indo-European root Ar- meaning "assemble/create" which is vastly used in names of or regarding the Sun, light, or fire, found in Ararat, Aryan, Arta etc

T. V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov, The Early History of Indo-European (aka Aryan) Languages, Scientific American, March 1990;

James P. Mallory, "Kuro-Araxes Culture", Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, Fitzroy Dearborn, 1997
....
If you watch the video you can see that all Sun Gods in all Indo-European languages derive from AR...

Interestingly Persians are a nation which never denies.Also Greeks.

Comments on the video

From Persian:

"In old Persia The sun is Called "Hoar". That's Ho+Ar. Ho means good Ar means pure. it evolved to "khor" in new Persian. Sun god, Mithra our common deity."

From Greek
"There isn't a single word in Greek starting with AR that has a negative meaning (except the word ARnitiko=negative, no), all the words have a positive meaning and show progress, war, nobility and work:

ARis=the god of war

ARchon=Leader, Lord

ARimanios=War lover

ARtios=Perfect

ARono=to plugh

ARmego=to milk

I believe the mother land of the so-called Indoeuropeans (Greco-Armenio-Iranians) and the birth place of Greek civilization is the Anatolian plato."

jVc8jbGGdE0

Something connected with the bolded part.

In Armenian the negative particle is "ch (չ)" like "dis, un, im, ir" in English.

When you put it in front of "ar", you have "ch-ar" (չար) which means "evil", which suits with the meaning of "Ar" as "Light", that is - it's not Ar, it is ch-Ar, it is evil, it's about the contradiction of good and bad, of light and darkness.

As a noun AR is Light in Armenian.

As a verb "Ar" has the meaning "to Create". Most Armenian words possess that particle "Ar" at the beginning or inside the word and have at their root the concepts of Creation, Creator, Light...
This could be the reason why George Gordon Byron said:

"Armenian is the language to talk to God".

[Gaztelu]

Well, Sanasar predates what you just cited. Therefore, why are you arguing with me now? Sanasar is clearly Salazar and the earliest use of the name is in Armenian oral tradition. I don't get it, why are you arguing with me? I disagree with you, as I have cited an earlier use of the name.

The surname Salazar has nothing to do with Sanasar. I already mentioned that the surname Salazar is a Castilianized topographic name of Basque origin. Therefore, it is pointless to argue that the surname Salazar is somehow linked to Sanasar. Armenia and Northern Spain are two places with no connection to one another. Therefore, it is impossible that Salazar is somehow derived from Sanasar.

[Ianus]

Rarely Armenian can overlap SE people