Origins of Poles from Kresy - Polonised Ruthenians, Balts, etc. or Polish settlers

[Peterski]

Magnowski from my project (with origins from Jezupol, near Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine) has haplogroup R1a-L260 and all of his closest matches are from "Poland Proper" (specifically, from what is now Slaskie Voivodeship). So it seems that his Y-DNA ancestor originally came to East Galicia from the west as (perhaps ethnically Polish) settler, rather than being a Polonised Ruthenian. This Magnowski is also on YFull (the one with the Ukrainian flag):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT38522/ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT38522/)

And what do you think about haplogroups of other guys from my project?:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy)

(so far there are only several but this number will increase in the coming days)

[Peterski]

I have started adding results here (even though there are still few people):

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy/about/results

[Peterski]

So far nearly all of project's participants have origins from area within the pre-1939 borders of Poland:

Only two have origins from further east / further north, they traced their genealogy to 1600s / 1500s:

https://i.imgur.com/j8JA9bg.png

[Opie]

Recently, I have learned Polish Sarmatism and it surprised me. I could have never guessed a Slavic nation embracing an Iranic tribe.

Is there any genetic contribution of Sarmatians among Poles?

[Peterski]

Is there any genetic contribution of Sarmatians among Poles?

I personally don't think so, but according to this study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08275-2

"The majority of individuals from medieval Poland can be modelled only as a mixture of ancestries related to Roman Iron Age Lithuania, which is similar to ancestries of individuals from middle to late Bronze Age Poland (44%, 95% confidence interval 36–51%), an ancestry component related to Hungarian Scythians or Slovakian La Tène individuals (49%, 95% confidence interval 41–57%) and potentially a minority component of ancestry related to Sarmatians from the Caucasus (P = 0.13) (Fig. 2c)."

[Peterski]

The Project already has 67 members!

[Peterski]

So far there are the following Y-DNA haplogroups:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy/about/results

[rothaer]

So far there are the following Y-DNA haplogroups:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy/about/results

Can you give a brief statement to what of the two thread alternatives (Polish settlement or ethnic conversion) the results do point so far?

[Peterski]

Can you give a brief statement to what of the two thread alternatives (Polish settlement or ethnic conversion) the results do point so far?

I checked all R1a samples from Kresy which have joined the Project thus far:

(I checked them using FamilyTreeDNA Discover and also using YFull)

Kit, Location, Subclade

Kit SI10919, Jezupol, R1a-FT38522 - subclade looks rather West Slavic
Kit 564530, Oszmiana, R1a-FTA11171 - looks rather East Slavic
Kit SI17902, Moczulanka, R1a-FTA7241 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 957469, Stryj, R1a-FTA91817 - could be either West or East Slavic (hard to tell)
Kit SI10164, Michnowszczyzna, R1a-FT403337 - either West or East Slavic (hard to tell)
Kit SM10469, Michnowszczyzna, R1a-FT403468 - either West or East Slavic (hard to tell)
Kit IN136600, Prozoroki, R1a-FTD56500 - could be either West or East Slavic (hard to tell)
Kit 730398, Kulczyce, R1a-BY69047 - could be either West or East Slavic (hard to tell)
Kit 199575, Hajsyn (year 1667), R1a-FT403421 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit SI16558, Torczyn, R1a-BY103385 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit B673768, Ołyka, R1a-FTA73789 - looks rather West Slavic or West Baltic
Kit B567644, Zubowicze, R1a-BY145998 - looks East Slavic or Baltic
Kit SI16373, Słuck, R-Y4459 - looks rather East Slavic or Baltic
Kit IN21275, Żelechów Wielki, R1a-Y2608 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit IN23652, Brześć Litewski, R1a-BY166543 - could be either West or East Slavic (hard to tell)
Kit SI13176, Moczulanka, R1a-BY65151 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit SM10902, Sokolatycze (powiat Nieśwież), R1a-FTA14339 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 684373, Wołochy, R1a-BY27801 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 368373, Szubków, R1a-BY27801 - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 786162, Bereźne, R1a-Z284 - looks Scandinavian, maybe from Rus Varangians?
Kit 1005046, Michnowszczyzna, R1a-L1029 (predicted as YP593) - looks rather West Slavic
Kit SM10468, Michnowszczyzna, R1a-L1029 (predicted as YP593) - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 942618, Nowogródek, R1a-L1029 (predicted as YP593) - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 754966, Sokolatycze, R1a-CTS1211 (predicted as FGC19283) - looks rather West Slavic
Kit SI12112, Sokolatycze, R1a-CTS1211 (predicted as FGC19283) - looks rather West Slavic
Kit 732906, Bereźne, R1a-L260 (predicted by Nevgen as either YP5297 or Y2905)
Zawisza, Konkolniki, R1a-Z280 [he has not officially joined the Project yet]

I'm open to criticism about my assignments.

[Peterski]

If my labelling of R1a subclades as West Slavic or East Slavic is correct then it looks like there was a substantial component of migrants from "Poland Proper" to Kresy. Even though the guy who contributed the largest number of samples to the Project claims that, using traditonal genealogy, he did not detect such migration. But his genealogical data goes back only to the 1700s or 1600s in most cases, which means that such a migration could occur earlier, beyond the reach of his genealogical research.

Edit:

Kit 732906 (either YP5297 or Y2905) also goes to rather West Slavic because both YP5297 annd Y2905 are rather West Slavic.

[rothaer]

If my labelling of R1a subclades as West Slavic or East Slavic is correct then it looks like there was a substantial component of migrants from "Poland Proper" to Kresy. Even though the guy who contributed the largest number of samples to the Project claims that, using traditonal genealogy, he did not detect such migration. But his genealogical data goes back only to the 1700s or 1600s in most cases, which means that such a migration could occur earlier, beyond the reach of his genealogical research.

I can not make any meaningful comment on the haplogroups without diving deep into that.

Is there any historical record for such migrations and could that at all be expected in a PLC context? I can not assess.

[Peterski]

Is there any historical record for such migrations and could that at all be expected in a PLC context?

I think this topic is poorly researched but I did find some publications, for example:

W. Tomkiewicz, "Extent of Polish colonization in Ruthenian lands":

https://shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/Tomkevych_Vladyslav/Zasig_koonizacji_polskiej_na_ziemiach_ruskich_pol. pdf

This one also has some fragments about history of Polish colonization in East Galicia:

S. Pawłowski, "Roman Catholic population in Eastern Galicia":

https://rcin.org.pl/Content/4082/WA51_2720_PANS626-r1919_Ludnosc-rzymsko.pdf

And here about migration of knights from Upper Silesia to Red Ruthenia (East Galicia):

https://www.inst-ukr.lviv.ua/files/19/130Sperka.pdf

[Wandal]

I posted this before. The article is online.
Facta Simonidis, 2008 nr 1. the article by Władysław Makarski,
Zamość i Zamojszczyzna na mapie językowej i kulturowej Polski.
The author sheds light on the beginnings of the settlement in Volhynia.

[Peterski]

I can not make any meaningful comment on the haplogroups without diving deep into that.

Here are kits with R1a subclades which I marked as "rather West Slavic":

Kit SI10919 has ancient connections Piast State, Viking Poland, Medieval Austria and matches in Czechia, Germany, Poland:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FT38522/story

Also his closest YFull matches are from Upper Silesia - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT38522/

Kit SI17902 has ancient connections Piast State, Viking Poland, Medieval Austria and matches in Czechia, Poland, Hungary:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY61398/story

Also on YFull he has matches in Poland and Silesia - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2905/

Kit 199575 has ancient connections Polabian Slavs, Piast State Slavs, Medieval Eastern Europe* and has matches in Poland:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FT403421/story

*I'm not sure what exactly they mean as Medieval Eastern Europe.

Also on YFull this haplogroup looks West Slavic - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY195372/

Kit SI16558 has ancient connections Wielbark, Viking Denmark, Piast State Slavs and has matches in Germany and in Poland among others:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY103385/story

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FT3866/story

Also on YFull looks western - https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-FGCLR618/

Kit B673768 has ancient connections Trzciniec, Roman Era Balkans, Middle Avar and has matches in Czechia and in Poland among others:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTA73789/story

Kit IN21275 has ancient connections Avar, Medieval Moravia and Arpad Dynasty, many matches in Poland and West Balkans:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y2608/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2608/

Kit SI13176 has ancient connections with Piast State Slavs, Medieval Denmark, Medieval Hungary, matches mostly from Poland and Germany:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-YP951/story

Kit SM10902 - has matches from Poland including Upper Silesia - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FTA14648/

Kit 684373 - has ancient connections with Piast State Slavs, La Tene and Wielbark, matches among the upstream subclade are from Poland:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY27801/story

https://www.yfull.com/arch-6.02/tree/R-YP5901/

Kit 368373 - the same subclade as the one above

Kit 1005046 - has ancient connections with Piast State Slavs, Polabian Slavs, Medieval Eastern Europe*, matches from Poland and Germany:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-YP593/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP593/

Kit SM10468 - the same subclade as the one above

Kit 942618 - the same subclade as the one above

Kit 754966 - looks like a mostly West Slavic subclade - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC19283/

Kit SI12112 - the same subclade as the one above

[Peterski]

Now "hard to tell" subclades:

Kit 957469 - ancient connections to Polabian Slavs, Piast State, Medieval East Europe, but matches from unknown countries:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTA91817/story

On YFull most samples are from Belarus and Ukraine but Polish ethnically - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y224505/

Kit SI10164 - ancient connections Polabian Slavs, Piast State, Medieval East Europe, matches from Poland and Ukraine:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FT403337/story

On YFull most samples are from Belarus and Ukraine but Polish ethnically - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y224505/

Kit SM10469 - ancient connections Polabian Slavs, Piast State, Medieval East Europe, matches from Ukraine, Belarus, Poland:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FT403468/story

On YFull most samples are from Belarus and Ukraine but Polish ethnically - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y224505/

Kit IN136600 - ancient connections Piast State, Viking Sweden, Viking Russia, matches from both West and East Slavs:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTD56500/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP728/

Kit 730398 - ancient connections to both Piast State, Viking Sweden and Viking Russia, modern matches in Ukraine, Bulgaria:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY69047/story

https://www.yfull.com/arch-13.03/tree/R-BY75138/

Kit IN23652 - ancient connections to Piast State, Medieval Denmark, Hungary, but modern matches mostly Eastern:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY166543/story

https://www.yfull.com/arch-11.01/tree/R-FT232559/

[Peterski]

"Rather East Slavic or Baltic" ones:

Kit 564530 - no any ancient connections are listed, modern matches are mostly Eastern:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTA11915/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y184248/

Kit B567644 - no any ancient connections are listed, modern matches are East Slavic and Baltic:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY145998/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6504/

Kit SI16373 - ancient conections Trzciniec, Balkans, Avar, modern matches are mostly East Slavic and South Slavic:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y4459/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4459/

Kit 786162 - R1a-Z284 is a Scandinavian haplogroup, perhaps mediated through Rus Varangians

[Peterski]

And this last kit can be added to "rather West Slavic" because:

Kit 732906 (predicted by Nevgen as either YP5297 or Y2905)

R-YP5297 ancient connections Piast State, Viking Poland, Medieval Austria, matches Germany, Czechia, Poland, Slovenia:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-YP5297/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5297/

R-Y2905 ancient connections Piast State, Viking Poland, Medieval Austria, matches Poland, Czechia, Germany, Slovakia:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y2905/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2905/

[Peterski]

What do you think about this?

Should I categorize more subclades as "East Slavic" or as "hard to tell"? If so, which ones?

Or do you agree with my list?

[Peterski]

Now let's check samples with haplogroup I2 from the map:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=141I3i4lIStgx9zCZl0mlBIKBi0u1fDo&usp=sharing

Kit 524314 - in ancient connections has Medieval Moravia, Serbia and East Europe, among matches Czechia, Hungary, Poland:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-FTA72942/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FTA97675/ - here a match from Upper Silesia and from Czechia. This branch is "rather West Slavic"

Kit B1019874 - this one looks "rather Eastern Slavic":

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-FT40113/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FT40113/

Kit SM10936 - this one looks "hard to tell" (East or West):

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-FTB40760/story

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-BY30333/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y15928/

Kit SI18863 - I2a1-Y3120 not enough info about subclades

Żabińce, I2a1-L621 [this kit is not yet officially in the project]

Kit 155423 - this one looks "hard to tell" (West or East):

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-S23612/story

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y4884/

Kit SI12406 - IMO more probable that it is "West Slavic":

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P78/

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-P78/story

[Peterski]

Now I used SNP Tracker to estimate origins of subclades which I previously marked as "hard to tell":

https://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

Kit 957469, Stryj, R1a-FTA91817 - looks rather East Slavic based on SNP Tracker
Kit SI10164, Michnowszczyzna, R1a-FT403337 - looks rather East Slavic based on SNP Tracker
Kit SM10469, Michnowszczyzna, R1a-FT403468 - looks rather East Slavic based on SNP Tracker
Kit IN136600, Prozoroki, R1a-FTD56500 - looks rather West Slavic based on SNP Tracker
Kit 730398, Kulczyce, R1a-BY69047 - looks rather East Slavic based on SNP Tracker
Kit IN23652, Brześć Litewski, R1a-BY166543 - looks rather East Slavic based on SNP Tracker

Kit SM10936, Rudnia Stryj, I2a1-FTB40760 - looks rather East Slavic based on SNP Tracker
Kit 155423, Krzemienica, I2a2-S23612 - looks rather West Slavic based on SNP Tracker

[Peterski]

(...)

I noticed that in East Galicia most settlements were mixed (with both Ukrainians and Poles - in various proportions, sometimes Poles more numerous - living in the same settlement), while in Volhynia there probably existed a relatively large number of purely Polish settlements, many of which were later destroyed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and no traces of these settlements remain today (which is why I had some difficulty when placing Poles from Volhynia on my Google Map because they often come from settlements which no longer exist).

=====

There is a book by Ukrainian nationalist Volodymyr Kubijovyč which lists the number of Poles and Ukrainians in every settlement in East Galicia in year 1939. He artificially divided Poles into 3 groups (Poles, Latynnyky and Polish colonists) but if we sum up these 3 groups then his numbers are actually not that much different than the numbers of Roman Catholics from the Polish census of 1921 and from the Austrian census of 1910 (although the numbers of Roman Catholics from the Polish census of 1931 are already higher than Kubijovyč's numbers for 1939). I made a comparison by county of Roman Catholics (Rz. katolicy) in 1921 and 1910 and Poles according to Kubijovyč in 1939:

https://i.imgur.com/Gh26h3w.png - for Woj. Lwowskie I included only counties east of current Polish border

https://i.imgur.com/Gh26h3w.png

Here is Kubijovyč's book if you are interested:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/41815vre93i8d71/Galicija_1939-popis.rar/file

But as I mentioned according to Polish 1931 census the number of Roman Catholics was higher than the number of Poles in 1939 according to Kubijovyč. And the number of Polish-speakers according to the 1931 census was even higher than the number of Roman Catholics in 1931.

[Wandal]

I noticed that in East Galicia most settlements were mixed (with both Ukrainians and Poles - in various proportions, sometimes Poles more numerous - living in the same settlement), while in Volhynia there probably existed a relatively large number of purely Polish settlements, many of which were later destroyed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and no traces of these settlements remain today (which is why I had some difficulty when placing Poles from Volhynia on my Google Map because they often come from settlements which no longer exist).

=====

There is a book by Ukrainian nationalist Volodymyr Kubijovyč which lists the number of Poles and Ukrainians in every settlement in East Galicia in year 1939. He artificially divided Poles into 3 groups (Poles, Latynnyky and Polish colonists) but if we sum up these 3 groups then his numbers are actually not that much different than the numbers of Roman Catholics from the Polish census of 1921 and from the Austrian census of 1910 (although the numbers of Roman Catholics from the Polish census of 1931 are already higher than Kubijovyč's numbers for 1939). I made a comparison by county of Roman Catholics (Rz. katolicy) in 1921 and 1910 and Poles according to Kubijovyč in 1939:

https://i.imgur.com/Gh26h3w.png - for Woj. Lwowskie I included only counties east of current Polish border
.

Not only that, there were tens of thousands of Polish in eastern Volhynia in the territory of the Soviet Union. Volhynia extends all the way to at least Berdyczów and arguably Żytomierz.