Greater Netherlands

[The Lawspeaker]

Suppose if Flanders and Wallonia would join our ranks again. Flanders would be able to cope well: it is wealthy, the infrastructure is reasonable but would need some major adjustment over the coming years but it is Wallonia that we should be worried about;

Other people may think that Wallonia looks like this:

http://www.aktivatours.nl/data/pic/GARDLUX_Belgi__Ardennen_Luxembourgeoise4.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Frahan_JPG01.jpg

Unfortunately: that is not the whole story... there is more to it:

http://www.archined.nl/uploads/pics/bourinage_archined_02.jpg

http://www.gadzo.be/files/u2/Charleroi.jpg

http://weblogs.nrc.nl/ee/files/061112/20061107_0396wasgoed_web.jpg

Particularly the area around Lidje (Luik) and Tchålerwè (Charleroi) has a problem. Particularly the area known as Borinage has a problem. It was once "Belgian's" version of the Black Country. Very heavily industrialised this is where the money was - unfortunately when the mines closed so did the industry (that was during the 1960s and nothing has happened ever since). But... all the more reason to look into the area and see what can be done. - it would indeed need a lot of structuurplannen. While the Flemish only see corruption and decay and only have their ancient hatreds for the Walloons we of the North are maybe a bit more neutral here and we can see chances.

The area around Lidje has been industrialised since the Middle Ages - it is an area where indeed Dutch industrial history was written. Think of Cockerill. With the technological know-how that is now focussed in and around Lidje we could bring the steelworks back to life and build trains there, cars, watches, if necessary weapons. All this produced by people who can be brought back from their slumbers and get paid a Dutch wage, a good wage and can be proud of themselves again. But first we would need a lenghtly inquiry into the causes of political trouble there.

The Borinage is a different story: the question is-- what can be done for these people ? The mines are closed -- that story is over (like in Limburg).

But first things first: these people need decent houses with modern facilities:

http://ctenium.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/woonerf1.jpg

http://weblogs.hollanddoc.nl/deeeuwvandestad/files/2009/03/839944237_1cb801b7fa.jpg

It may be the same boring crap as we have but at least it will work.

They are going to need new public transport, new motorways.. new everything (basically)... an expensive job but a worthy one.

[Crossbow]

Other reasons (acording to Flemish writer/journalist G. van Istendael):


-The Netherlands would transform into a state with 27 million inhabitants, so we would be an important nation in Europe;
-A rich country: in the past this was reflected in the combined activities of industry (Wallonia), agriculture (Flanders) and a trading fleet plus colonies (Holland);
-Trilingual United Netherlands: Dutch, French and German, a valuable capital;
-Less influence of a powerful Roman Catholic Church, at the same time less dominance of calvinist elements;
-A richer composition of regional languages.
-More creativity in matters of architecture, due to southern influence, with the benefits of northern organization.

You could think of more reasons, van Istendael says he cannot find a single
disadvantage.

[The Lawspeaker]

In order to create jobs in Wallonia some sacrifices will have to be made by Brussels (which will still improve their quality of life), Kortrijk, Antwerp, Maastricht and Eindhoven as no less then five airports will be closed down.

The international airport of Brussels will be moved to Brussels South Charleroi -- which is the airport of Charleroi where the current airport should be completely rebuild in order to accommodate the current number of passengers as well as those that come into the country via Kortrijk, Brussels and to an extent Antwerp. It should be linked to Brussels by high-speed train that can be boarded directly at the airport and from there on to Antwerp and elsewhere in the North or South. It should become as important to the Netherlands as Amsterdam Schiphol so it should be beautifully designed. We could learn something from Liège- Guillemins (station) or from the gardens on Singapore-Changi.

Maastricht- Aachen (once known as Vliegveld Beek) will also be closed down and it's functions transferred to a new international airport which can be build out of the existing Liège- Bierset which can be linked to Antwerp, Maastricht and Brussels by a fast intercity train.

Whereas Liège- Bierset will not become as important as let's say Schiphol-Amsterdam it should still be able to handle a lot of traffic in case one of the other airports is too busy so it may need new runways and a new terminal. Which will create jobs which can be filled in by people from the area as well as from Maastricht which will fuel the creation of a new bi-lingual metropolitan area: Liège- Maastricht.

Then Antwerp and Eindhoven.. both need a good airport but the trouble is that the existing airports are too close to the actual cities so the search is on for the location for a new airport.

What needs to happen next is the re-vamping of the infrastructure, mainly in Wallonia, this can both be relatively cheap and become very expensive. The fact is that we as the Netherlands simply don't have the experience in dealing with hilly landscapes when it comes to planning infrastructure.

This is maybe where local expertise will come in handy - particularly in the Ardennes but the motorways will get the same look and the same quality as the latest versions in the Netherlands. They will get the same lighting, the same markings, the same traffic signs as those in use in the Netherlands but what's on it will be in Belgian French only (while in the Flanders everything will of course be in Dutch).


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LsJsc67zRGs/TPUFeVP_3TI/AAAAAAAAAMc/zdgjD14sf-w/s1600/ledverlichtinga44+%25282%2529.jpg
LED's at the A44.

It can be a bit cheaper when it comes to electricity when we don't fuel the "Belgian" obsession with lighting up the entire stretch of motorway -- even in rural areas. The initial investment will be expensive as a lot needs to be done and we can switch the lighting that will be there (on bridges, at exits, at road junctions and in more urban areas) to LED and add cat's eyes no the asphalt.

Of course the numbering system in both North and South need to be re-done from scratch so that also could be a very costly investment.

[The Lawspeaker]

Other reasons (acording to Flemish writer/journalist G. van Istendael):


-The Netherlands would transform into a state with 27 million inhabitants, so we would be an important nation in Europe;
-A rich country: in the past this was reflected in the combined activities of industry (Wallonia), agriculture (Flanders) and a trading fleet plus colonies (Holland);
-Trilingual United Netherlands: Dutch, French and German, a valuable capital;
-Less influence of a powerful Roman Catholic Church, at the same time less dominance of calvinist elements;
-A richer composition of regional languages.
-More creativity in matters of architecture, due to southern influence, with the benefits of northern organization.

You could think of more reasons, van Istendael says he cannot find a single
disadvantage.
And neither can I. It will take us some investments, some adjustments and we could loose some of those 27 million but in the end it will pay off handsomely.

[Crossbow]

And neither can I. It will take us some investments, some adjustments and we could loose some of those 27 million but in the end it will pay off handsomely.

Definitely, the loss of some of those 27 millions will release (a part of) the money required for these investments.

[The Lawspeaker]

Definitely, the loss of some of those 27 millions will release (a part of) the money required for these investments.
Not just the immigrants. I definitely wouldn't mind if some people from North AND South left the country for America or Canada. We need the space.

[Crossbow]

Not just the immigrants. I definitely wouldn't mind if some people from North AND South left the country for America or Canada. We need the space.

Allright, but when the number of immigrants is reduced to an insignificant rate, many nationals won't be willing to leave. One of the reasons why peope have been leaving (not the only one, to be sure) in the last decade has somehting to do with immigration and its consequences.
Perhaps its more likely that it will incite people who have been abroad, to return and settle here again.

[Peasant]

[FONT="Georgia"]
http://www.gadzo.be/files/u2/Charleroi.jpg


Is it wierd I find this first image more pleasing to my eye than the new buildings? :D Theres something I find really crappy and tacky about new housing developments.

[The Lawspeaker]

Is it wierd I find this first image more pleasing to my eye than the new buildings? :D Theres something I find really crappy and tacky about new housing developments.
Maybe because there is a lot of that in England too. Too my Dutch eyes it only has one meaning: big effing explosion and build something clean, efficient and modern for the people living in it.


Allright, but when the number of immigrants is reduced to an insignificant rate, many nationals won't be willing to leave. One of the reasons why peope have been leaving (not the only one, to be sure) in the last decade has somehting to do with immigration and its consequences.
Perhaps its more likely that it will incite people who have been abroad, to return and settle here again.
I surely hope not. We lack the space.. no it should be slowly encouraged to start leaving when you're looking for space and have acquired skills from which we have no shortage in this country while such skills may be needed in Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand --- they can file applications looking for European workers like during the 1950s and we will see who steps forward.

[Crossbow]

Is it wierd I find this first image more pleasing to my eye than the new buildings? :D Theres something I find really crappy and tacky about new housing developments.

To be honest, me too.

[The Lawspeaker]

To be honest, me too.
I think that they are drab to be honest. They are no good places for our nation's children to grow up in. They need big gardens, home zones (woonerven) where they can play, playgrounds and not the never-ending smut and decay.

iGMXzoq_Ofs

A more modern version of this could work.

http://www.zeeland-travel.com/middelburg/veersepoort2.jpg

http://www.offthewallposters.com/data/media/503/DOT_Netherlands_X_Amersfoort-Kattenbroek_04.jpg

Not always very beautiful but functional and safe for children to grow up in -- of course they should get their community centres, schools, local clinics etc. They should be build for families.. not as simple dwellings for wage slaves.

[Crossbow]

I think that they are drab to be honest. They are no good places for our nation's children to grow up in. They need big gardens, safe estates where they can play, playgrounds and not the never-ending smut and decay.

iGMXzoq_Ofs

A more modern version of this could work.

http://www.zeeland-travel.com/middelburg/veersepoort2.jpg

http://www.offthewallposters.com/data/media/503/DOT_Netherlands_X_Amersfoort-Kattenbroek_04.jpg

Not always very beautiful but functional and safe for children to grow up in -- of course they should get their community centres, schools, local clinics etc.

Without doubt. The Netherlands are already stuffed with these districts, but I think they're plain ugly. There could be invested some more energy into the looks of new houses, not the wet dreams of architects who have never developed any new ideas beyond Bauhaus.

[The Lawspeaker]

Agreed. They are not beautiful but at least they are functional and safe but yes.. it would not be a bad idea if they would come up with something new that would combine functionality with a more aesthetic approach.

http://www.nieuwbouwwijzer.nl/admin/bedrijven/nieuwbouwwijzer/data2/thumb400/Suytkade%20-%20Helmond.mplzp.jpg

http://www.brandevoort.nl/images/fotoalbums/25/742008132119_1612008122903_IMG_1632.jpg

http://www.eiland2.nl/images/de%20Veste.gif

But what is needed is a lot of parks, public transport, sporting facilities, clinics (the poverty of Wallonia has of course also had it's effect on public health so we may need to overcompensate a bit) and parking places just around the corner and if you need a motorway you build underneath the district and not straight through it.

[Crossbow]

I would think of something in which the ancient style is combined with modern efficiency, thus procuring a less alienating effect.
And about health: allergies in children are believed to have increased in recent years because of insulating materials. These materials cut off the bridge between the interior and the exterior spaces.

[The Lawspeaker]

I would think of something in which the ancient style is combined with modern efficiency, thus procuring a less alienating effect.
Although some people would like more rationalist homes.. they too of course should be build and for instance an hospital should have more uncluttered architecture with a lot of space for gardens (and direct access to a lake or park) and easy access lanes so it should be placed in an area where there is a nearby railway station and underground motorway.

rUuBFPxA5iI
^This will certainly be needed at motorways...and at some urban thoroughfares.





And about health: allergies in children are believed to have increased in recent years because of insulating materials. These materials cut off the bridge between the interior and the exterior spaces.
Then it is time for a new study into it and maybe look for different insulating materials or maybe use less. But the problem in Wallonia is probably the same as the ones I have encountered in England: poor diet -- and then of course the affects of pollutants in the air and in the ground. Because: make no mistakes here.. the ground is of course saturated with pollutants after some 200 years of industrialisation so everything needs to be cleaned up.. expect a lot more Lekkerkerk's..

[Crossbow]

Although some people would like more rationalist homes.. they too of course should be build and for instance an hospital should have more uncluttered architecture with a lot of space for gardens (and direct access to a lake or park) and easy access lanes so it should be placed in an area where there is a nearby railway station and underground motorway.

rUuBFPxA5iI
^This will certainly be needed at motorways...and at some urban thoroughfares.




Then it is time for a new study into it and maybe look for different insulating materials or maybe use less. But the problem in Wallonia is probably the same as the ones I have encountered in England: poor diet -- and then of course the affects of pollutants in the air and in the ground. Because: make no mistakes here.. the ground is of course saturated with pollutants after some 200 years of industrialisation so everything needs to be cleaned up.. expect a lot more Lekkerkerk's..


Yes, it most probably will be a mess in various places, in need to be cleaned up. Didn't we have a scandal of illegal chemical waste dumpings near a Walloon village with Dutch companies involved? I can't remember the name of the village.

Btw, take a look at this: (http://binnenland.nieuws.nl/562869)

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, it most probably will be a mess in various places, in need to be cleaned up. Didn't we have a scandal of illegal chemical waste dumpings near a Walloon village with Dutch companies involved? I can't remember the name of the village.
I can't remember the name of it but I know what you mean. Talk about shitting in your own backyard. I hope that when pollutants are being found they will also find those that did it. I think it will be a lot worse then Lekkerkerk or the lovely stuff was found at the KEMA in the 1970s


Btw, take a look at this: (http://binnenland.nieuws.nl/562869)
That's good news.. if it doesn't damage Walloon culture but I think we should follow their example and learn French.

[Crossbow]

I can't remember the name of it but I know what you mean. Talk about shitting in your own backyard. I hope that when pollutants are being found they will also find those that did it. I think it will be a lot worse then Lekkerkerk or the lovely stuff was found at the KEMA in the 1970s


That's good news.. if it doesn't damage Walloon culture but I think we should follow their example and learn French.

Our language skills have to be improved drastically: French and German should be seriously studied (English is omnipresent already)at school, instead of the moronic street language children are picking up now.

[The Lawspeaker]

Exactly. I actually believe that French should overtake English for political reasons if we are to become a federation and yes: more emphasis should be put on learning languages - starting off in primary school. It should be made fun to learn a language and one way to do is to hook up children from let's say Holland or Overijssel with children from Hoei (Huy) or Andenne in de province of Namen so they can have a holiday camp together and mix.. they will learn the language that was even better then while being in school and later on they can learn how to write it.

Of course they should later on also read Belgian French literature or even French literature.. listen to the music of Jacques Zegers or Jacques Brel in the same way as children from Hoei or Andenne would then read Flemish or Northern literature and listen to Flemish or Northern music and watch films and it should be always be made clear that despite it being in another language it is part of the same Netherlandic school of thought.

English and German are easier to learn then French and will of course be given too - also starting off in primary school.

[Crossbow]

It would correspond much more with my idea of a multicultural society than we have now, that's for sure. Various cultures with a common history, with a heritage tributary to the Roman and Germanic realm, wielded together!

[The Lawspeaker]

It would correspond much more with my idea of a multicultural society than we have now. Various cultures with a common history, with a heritage tributary to the Roman and Germanic realm, wielded together!
The thing is.. when it comes to the Greater Netherlands (and also Luxembourg in that respect.. stretching all the way down to Switzerland) is that the area is culturally so endowed with culture and I think that those that those that want to take over (the French and the Germans) do that out of pure jealousy because they only have one culture. It has to be this or that.. not so here with all our different shades, different landscapes, different dialects and that is actually what makes us strong as a culture. Yes.. it that's kind of multiculturalism, not the state-enforced one that has been here with us now for 40 years but the fact that we have all these different strains of Catholicism and Protestantism, the choice to live in an area where they speak French, Dutch, Flemish Dutch, Limburgic Dutch, Low Saxon, Frisian, on whether you want to live in the hills, in the flat lands or along the coast. Maybe more then other countries do we have the possibility here to make your life the way you want it and to pick your own influence and that's something I only begin to realise now.

It's the richness of our shared culture and heritage (even more enriched by our colonial histories with influences coming in from the East and West Indies, from North America and South Africa - but also from other European countries) that makes this country the place where you can build your life the way you want it.

It's the kind of modernity that isn't wrong but that can be combined with tradition. And what our foreign "friends" try to ignore is the fact that Walloons didn't run for France during the Eighty Years War: they ran to the United Netherlands. A lot of them were Huguenots and we still have our Walloon churches.

http://www.musico.nl/images/locaties/amsterdam-waalsekerk.jpg

[Treffie]

[FONT="Georgia"]
http://www.gadzo.be/files/u2/Charleroi.jpg


Wales = Wallonia

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icwales2/aug2010/6/4/port-talbot-275909481.jpg

[Osweo]

You and your schemes, Civis... You forget yourself.

I personally am very against any paternalism (as I too have seen) towards the Southern Netherlands
:bowlol:



Ahem. I'd like to see the 'proof' that Walloons were once 'Dutch' who became Frenchified. I thought they were Gallo-Romans who'd been speaking Gallo-Roman since the 1st Century or so. I appreciate that the language border has moved, but surely Frankisch wasn't the language of the peasantry in ALL Wallonia!?

[The Lawspeaker]

You and your schemes, Civis... You forget yourself.

:bowlol:



Ahem. I'd like to see the 'proof' that Walloons were once 'Dutch' who became Frenchified. I thought they were Gallo-Romans who'd been speaking Gallo-Roman since the 1st Century or so. I appreciate that the language border has moved, but surely Frankisch wasn't the language of the peasantry in ALL Wallonia!?
First of all: it's not a scheme. It's irredentism. The idea that we are one nation and we have been one nation before (and actually for a long time.. longer still that we have been separated ---under the HRE and the Burgundian Circle and in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands which fell apart through William I's insane policies and French machinations).

There is more then language alone. There is culture, Os, something that you being a foreigner would never understand as I (even if I would be living in England for 20 years) would never understand the full workings of it all as those workings are guess what: not a matter of language and/or that is brains only. It's a feeling. When I am in Flanders or Wallonia I am not abroad. And striving to improve their conditions of living as they have set back for a generation is not paternalism - it is called "helping out your fellows." A patriotic duty if any.

So Heel-Neerlandisme is not something new - it's something deeply ingrained in political and cultural life in both the Netherlands and Belgium with adherents from both the left and the right.


Religion: British
Besides... Britishness doesn't exist since there are English, Scots, Welsh and Irish. If the idea of a Dietsland, of a Whole Netherlands, a Low Countries idea cannot exist.. why can Britain ?

[MagnaLaurentia]

Our language skills have to be improved drastically: French and German should be seriously studied (English is omnipresent already)at school, instead of the moronic street language children are picking up now.


Exactly. I actually believe that French should overtake English for political reasons if we are to become a federation and yes: more emphasis should be put on learning languages - starting off in primary school. It should be made fun to learn a language and one way to do is to hook up children from let's say Holland or Overijssel with children from Hoei (Huy) or Andenne in de province of Namen so they can have a holiday camp together and mix.. they will learn the language that was even better then while being in school and later on they can learn how to write it.

Of course they should later on also read Belgian French literature or even French literature.. listen to the music of Jacques Zegers or Jacques Brel in the same way as children from Hoei or Andenne would then read Flemish or Northern literature and listen to Flemish or Northern music and watch films and it should be always be made clear that despite it being in another language it is part of the same Netherlandic school of thought.

English and German are easier to learn then French and will of course be given too - also starting off in primary school.

Je vous encourage mes amis! D'ailleurs, les Néerlandais/Flamands sont les germains que je préfère le plus. ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Je vous encourage mes amis! D'ailleurs, les Néerlandais/Flamands sont les germains que je préfère le plus. ;)
And they are more then welcome. One nation. One Netherlands instead of the two we have now.. :rolleyes:

[Osweo]

First of all: it's not a scheme. It's irredentism.
I meant to put my post here in the other thread that's running now, where you outlined all your fantasies for remodelling Walloon infrastructure - i.e. rampant Dutch paternalism! :p

Reminded me a little of how crazy old Onkel Dolfi used to spend hours planning what he'd do to remodel Linz and Berlin while the Russkies were breathing down his neck... ;)


The idea that we are one nation and we have been one nation before (and actually for a long time.. longer still that we have been separated ---under the HRE and the Burgundian Circle and in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands which fell apart through William I's insane policies and French machinations).
Nation...
A bunch of people who never spoke your German tongue, and whose ancestors were there before the Germanics swarmed over the Rhine.
Walloons are Gallo-Romans, with a dash of Frankish elite absorbed into them. Flemings are Franks and Batavi etc. with a bit of absorbed and assimilated Gallo-Roman.

It's a little bit like Welsh and English, Estonians and Latvians.... :D

And weren't the HRE and United Netherlands as multinational as the present Belgium? Why swap one for the other?


There is more then language alone. There is culture, Os, something that you being a foreigner would never understand as I (even if I would be living in England for 20 years) would never understand the full workings of it all as those workings are guess what: not a matter of language and/or that is brains only. It's a feeling. When I am in Flanders or Wallonia I am not abroad.
It's not 'foreign' to you, sure, but neither are... oh, let me think... Muenster? Cleves? Maybe Koeln isn't SO foreign? Or Picards, or perhaps even Normands and Champagnoises?

There are continuums in matters ethnocultural, especially in your wider regions, but lines must still be drawn somewhere.

I'd say that Walloon independence would indicate the nature of the continuum better than simply having a big fat France, Netherlands and Germany.

So Heel-Neerlandisme is not something new - it's something deeply ingrained in political and cultural life in both the Netherlands and Belgium with adherents from both the left and the right.
Please, find me some WALLOONS that want it!


Besides... Britishness doesn't exist since there are English, Scots, Welsh and Irish. If the idea of a Dietsland, of a Whole Netherlands, a Low Countries idea cannot exist.. why can Britain ?

Britain is an island. All those peoples are British in a very simple, apolitical, sense.

My religion is not tied in with a political project, but simply my ancestry and sentiments.

[The Lawspeaker]

I meant to put my post here in the other thread that's running now, where you outlined all your fantasies for remodelling Walloon infrastructure - i.e. rampant Dutch paternalism! :p

Reminded me a little of how crazy old Onkel Dolfi used to spend hours planning what he'd do to remodel Linz and Berlin while the Russkies were breathing down his neck... ;)
It's better then what Flemish "nationalists" do who just tear everything down while selling off their own country to the Israeli's.
But maybe that's a more nationalistic thing: caring about your own kin and that's why I personally have no respect whatsoever for many Flemish nationalists. I can understand it very well if they despise the French or the froggified elite but the normal regular Walloon, that has to live off a meagre tchômaedje (chomage) because his factory closed down and so did all the others, is innocent when it comes to past mistreatment of the Flemish in their own country.



Nation...
A bunch of people who never spoke your German tongue, and whose ancestors were there before the Germanics swarmed over the Rhine.
Walloons are Gallo-Romans, with a dash of Frankish elite absorbed into them. Flemings are Franks and Batavi etc. with a bit of absorbed and assimilated Gallo-Roman.
I recommend you to look up stuff about Belgian French and the Walloon dialect.. it has seen a lot of Germanic influence and Flemish has seen a lot of Gallo-Roman influence. Hell even the Brabantic my mother spoke. Ask Heimmacht what a nondeju means. Not Germanic no ? It isn't. It's Brabantic and means goddammit.


It's a little bit like Welsh and English, Estonians and Latvians.... :D
Nope. So if it would be like Welsh and English then they shouldn't be in the United Kingdom.

And weren't the HRE and United Netherlands as multinational as the present Belgium? Why swap one for the other?


It's not 'foreign' to you, sure, but neither are... oh, let me think... Muenster? Cleves? Maybe Koeln isn't SO foreign? Or Picards, or perhaps even Normands and Champagnoises? There are continuums in matters ethnocultural, especially in your wider regions, but lines must still be drawn somewhere.
Munsterland (the area to the west of it) spoke and still speaks to an agree (unless they stopped doing it after 1983) a Dutch-related dialect. Cleves was Dutch-speaking until the last century.

And the borders are drawn at the Munsterland, Oost-Friesland, below Bonen, Kamerijk and along the Luxembourg border. The old borders of the Netherlands in the HRE minus Luxembourg.





I'd say that Walloon independence would indicate the nature of the continuum better than simply having a big fat France, Netherlands and Germany.
It is a continuum.. you can't have one thing without the other. The Netherlands AND Belgium that exist today are both amputated nations.


Please, find me some WALLOONS that want it!
There are no Walloons here but more and more of them seem to be learning Dutch while Flemish and Dutch now move into Wallonia. There is an article about it but you would have to look for it yourself.




Britain is an island. All those peoples are British in a very simple, apolitical, sense.

My religion is not tied in with a political project, but simply my ancestry and sentiments.
Britain is four nations that all had an avid dislike of each other until they were united under one King and and even then it took 200 years and now you still have the Scots that want the English out.. so it isn't working, no ?

Let me tell you one thing about the Low Countries. It isn't an island (I wish it was though but it isn't. It lays on the very fault lines of the Gallo-Roman and Germanic cultures. Just go to Maastricht or Antwerp.. or yes Brussels and you will understand what I mean that is if you keep your eyes open.

Another such country would be Switzerland and they wouldn't appreciate it over there if you didn't call them a nation but suggested that Geneva became part of France.

[Osweo]

I recommend you to look up stuff about Belgian French and the Walloon dialect.. it has seen a lot of Germanic influence and Flemish has seen a lot of Gallo-Roman influence. Hell even the Brabantic my mother spoke. Ask Heimmacht what a nondeju means. Not Germanic no ? It isn't. It's Brabantic and means goddammit.
Neighbours influence each other. :shrug: Borrowings remain borrowings, however.


Nope. So if it would be like Welsh and English then they shouldn't be in the United Kingdom.
Maybe they shouldn't. It's certainly worth examining other political arrangements.


Munsterland (the area to the west of it) spoke and still speaks to an agree (unless they stopped doing it after 1983) a Dutch-related dialect. Cleves was Dutch-speaking until the last century.
What next then? Nederlanden van die Seine zu den Ems!??

There are no Walloons here but more and more of them seem to be learning Dutch while Flemish and Dutch now move into Wallonia. There is an article about it but you would have to look for it yourself.
The present few threads might hopefully attract a few who are doing websearches.

But seeing as how it's your project, YOU should go and find some on their own forums, and report back to us what they think of your ideas... :cool:


Britain is four nations that all had an avid dislike of each other until they were united under one King and and even then it took 200 years and now you still have the Scots that want the English out.. so it isn't working, no ?
That is grossly simplistic. Strangely enough, we do a hell of a lot of interbreeding, despite these 'avid dislikes'... :rolleyes2:

[The Lawspeaker]

Neighbours influence each other. :shrug: Borrowings remain borrowings, however.
And thus over time communities are created and thus nations. Well done, Os, you just found the key to nationhood. Next step: understanding that multi-lingual nations do exist. Let's see if you can get there too. Switzerland and Luxembourg are now on the menu for debate.




What next then? Nederlanden van die Seine zu den Ems!??
Nee hoor. Van de Eems tot aan de Zoom (Somme).




But seeing as how it's your project, YOU should go and find some on their own forums, and report back to us what they think of your ideas... :cool:
It is not an unknown topic on Dutch AND Belgian forums.



That is grossly simplistic. Strangely enough, we do a hell of a lot of interbreeding, despite these 'avid dislikes'... :rolleyes2:
And so do Flemish and Walloons. And to an extent Flemish and Northern Dutch. Your point being ?

[The Lawspeaker]

While there are plenty of sources that state that he was been born near Noyons or near Aachen. Frankly: whatever historians say doesn't matter. We don't know where he was born. It's like Obama.. there is no birth certificate. My schoolbook said Aachen (written in the 1980s), my history book (written in the early 1970s) says Noyons, wiki says that he was born near Luik.

We will never know. So we have four or three (depending on the way you look at it) countries that have all the rights and no rights whatsoever to claim him as his: Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and France.

[Karl der Große]

LOL. Fuck off. They are Frankish like most of the Dutch are. Particularly in Brabant, Guelders etc. And you're wrong btw. He wasn't born near Luik.. but close to Aachen which would make him in today's terms probably Limburgic.

Oh well, Dutch are also (a kind of) Germans. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=423130&postcount=784) I take your noble words on ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Oh well, Dutch are also (a kind of) Germans. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=423130&postcount=784) I take your noble words on ;)
A kind of.. yes. But no Germans like the ones living across the border in Krautistania and neither should we be in that "Bundesrepublik". We'll have our own, thank you very much.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Can you Dutch please form a some sort of unificationist political party in the Netherlands that calls for the unification of the Greater Netherlands? It would be great if you could since the Netherlands can play as some sort of counterbalance to Franco-German power politics.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1406/gnl.png

[Mordid]

Where's Civis when you need him? :D

[The Lawspeaker]

There isn't one.. unfortunately. All political parties in either the Netherlands and Belgium are stuck in the same old rubbish. So it would have to be created from scratch.

[poiuytrewq0987]

There isn't one.. unfortunately. All political parties in either the Netherlands and Belgium are stuck in the same old rubbish. So it would have to be created from scratch.

Starting from scratch can be easy if the Dutch could mobilize their youth who have the desire to see Netherlands reunified. Unless the Dutch youth have a different interest?

[The Lawspeaker]

Starting from scratch can be easy if the Dutch could mobilize their youth who have the desire to see Netherlands reunified. Unless the Dutch youth have a different interest?
I think for most people it would be more bier en tieten nowadays... :coffee:

[gandalf]

"The Greater Netherlands (including Flanders and Frisia) and the Kingdom of France "

This could be the Frankish federation ?

[The Lawspeaker]

"The Greater Netherlands (including Flanders and Frisia) and the Kingdom of France "

This could be the Frankish federation ?
No thanks. Not with you froggers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Het_Koningkrijk_der_nederlanden_1816.jpg


Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden.
Royaume-Uni de Pays-Bas

It's capital ? Brussels.
It's King or Queen ?
Prince Nicolas of Belgium and Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands should one day in the future get married and the existing rights to the throne should be given to them and the country could be reunited.

[The Lawspeaker]

Actually: there is another good argument for reunification: it would decentralise economic and political power. Now the Randstad Holland (and Flanders in Belgium) have an political and economic stranglehold on the rest of the country. Then they will have to compete against each other.

And maybe it will be the South (Brabant) and East of the country (Limburg and Wallonia) that will benefit.

[Laudanum]

Can you Dutch please ...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPyMkAEpQJDU3DaHuAV7qfZ5HxQdACa U5F4nIzxpi0BDs_2O0YJaIoxMMS

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.2747.com/2747/world/city/2008en/brussels5.jpg

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/europe/european-union/belgium/images/brussels-belgium.jpg

http://www.belgiumview.com/foto/smvote/0000739ab.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Justitiepaleis1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Mont_des_Arts_Bruxelles.JPG


http://www.trabel.com/albums/brussels/fotos/brussels-beenhouwersstraatbijnacht2.jpg

http://www.willgoto.com/pictures/b/maison_horta_verriere2.jpg

Fuck Paris. Fuck London. Fuck Rome. We would have Brussels !
And I can't do any good pictures that do that city any justice.

[Albion]

Fuck Paris. Fuck London. Fuck Rome. We would have Brussels !


... and fuck you, you can keep it! :tongue ;)

Seriously though, I think this would be a much better path for the low countries to take than the HRE or whatever.
The low countries are kin and they share so many bonds. A Greater Netherlands would be similar to England or Italy on a few levels, no longer 3 small countries.

What would you prefer Civis? United Low Countries or to include the area in a new HRE as proposed on that other thread?

[The Lawspeaker]

... and fuck you, you're can keep it! :tongue ;) Aye ! :D


Seriously though, I think this would be a much better path for the low countries to take than the HRE or whatever.
The low countries are kin and they share so many bonds. A Greater Netherlands would be similar to England or Italy on a few levels, no longer 3 small countries.

What would you prefer Civis? United Low Countries or to include the area in a new HRE as proposed on that other thread?
Either a United Kingdom of the Netherlands with special ties with Luxembourg or a Republic of the United Netherlands with the same.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Map-Europe_1815-Netherlands.svg

[Cail]

I seriously don't understand why did the Germanic-speaking Belgium had to separate from the Netherlands along with Wallonia.

[The Lawspeaker]

I seriously don't understand why did the Germanic-speaking Belgium had to separate from the Netherlands along with Wallonia.
Long Long Long Long story. I recommend you to look up some Dutch and Belgian history. It saves me from having to type for hours. :coffee::cool:

[Cail]

Long Long Long Long story. I recommend you to look up some Dutch and Belgian history. It saves me from having to type for hours. :coffee::cool:

I did actually. I'm interested in the European history. But this has always been a mistery to me :confused:. As far as i can tell, the Belgian revolution was mostly driven by French/Walloon speakers, predominantly Catholics. Flemish had no actual reason to revolt, Dutch rule was good for them (pro-Flemish language laws et cetera). Why did the Flemish provinces end up lumped with Walloons - i have no idea.

[The Lawspeaker]

I did actually. I'm interested in the European history. But this has always been a mistery to me :confused:. As far as i can tell, the Belgian revolution was mostly driven by French/Walloon speakers, predominantly Catholics. Flemish had no actual reason to revolt, Dutch rule was good for them (pro-Flemish language laws et cetera). Why did the Flemish provinces end up lumped with Walloons - i have no idea.
Religion (Protestant North - Catholic South) and the fact that the King was a bit of an idiot. :thumb001: I will write something about it when I have some more time.

[Tchek]

I did actually. I'm interested in the European history. But this has always been a mistery to me :confused:. As far as i can tell, the Belgian revolution was mostly driven by French/Walloon speakers, predominantly Catholics. Flemish had no actual reason to revolt, Dutch rule was good for them (pro-Flemish language laws et cetera). Why did the Flemish provinces end up lumped with Walloons - i have no idea.

No, you have to nuance this a bit.
The Flemish were more catholics than the Walloons. Walloons disliked the Orange rule a bit and the Flemish didn't like it for religious reasons (protestants vs catholics).
First the difference between Flemish and Walloons weren't so clear-cut than today, as both regions didn't even exist.
Second, the modern dutch-oriented Flemish identity was formed during the 20th century through the standardized Dutch language taught at universities (Ghent and Leuven), but back then the Flemish and the Dutch were very different. The Dutch considered the Flemish backward peasants. It is Neo-flemish romanticism that makes some Flemish think "oh, had the Netherlands not split, it would have been better", but their ancestors had another idea. They don't realize that the context was vastly different.

Now, Flanders and NL became "closer" due to modern Flemish identity being vastly influenced by the Netherlands, religions are mostly irrelevant today, and the shared Euro currency, the cultural exchanges, medias and education and a similar quality of life, made both countries much closer to each other than back in the 19th century.
Meanwhile, it is only quite recently that the cultural exchanges between Wallonia and Flanders went to an halt.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, you have to nuance this a bit.
The Flemish were more catholics than the Walloons. Walloons disliked the Orange rule a bit and the Flemish didn't like it for religious reasons (protestants vs catholics).
First the difference between Flemish and Walloons weren't so clear-cut than today, as both regions didn't even exist.
Second, the modern dutch-oriented Flemish identity was formed during the 20th century through the standardized Dutch language taught at universities (Ghent and Leuven), but back then the Flemish and the Dutch were very different. The Dutch considered the Flemish backward peasants. It is Neo-flemish romanticism that makes some Flemish think "oh, had the Netherlands not split, it would have been better", but their ancestors had another idea. They don't realize that the context was vastly different.

Now, Flanders and NL became "closer" due to modern Flemish identity being vastly influenced by the Netherlands, religions are mostly irrelevant today, and the shared Euro currency, the cultural exchanges, medias and education and a similar quality of life, made both countries much closer to each other than back in the 19th century.
Meanwhile, it is only quite recently that the cultural exchanges between Wallonia and Flanders went to an halt.

While it should be the case that all parts are influencing each other. :thumb001:

[Albion]

but back then the Flemish and the Dutch were very different. The Dutch considered the Flemish backward peasants. It is Neo-flemish romanticism that makes some Flemish think "oh, had the Netherlands not split, it would have been better", but their ancestors had another idea. They don't realize that the context was vastly different.


So a bit like how London and the South East think about the North and South West then. :rolleyes: