DNA tests cannot determine one's ethnicity, they can only estimate it.

[reboun]

A Ukrainian who plot closest to Swedish average doesn't mean that person is ethnically Swedish. He or she is still ethnically Ukrainian.

In my opinion, people who took ethnicity DNA tests take those results too seriously. I have even seen people who changed their ethnic identification as they saw the results, which is really ridiculous.

[Mortimer]

I agree but its not completely worthless though i agree that you can estimate it

[Dior Haines]

The genetic differences between Turks and the peoples of the Balkans, such as Greeks and Serbs, are quite clear. However, it is more difficult to identify these differences among closely related ethnic groups, such as Ukrainians and Swedes.

[Kowalski]

A wise man will put his faith into Millennial Kingdom (of Jesus Christ on the planet Earth, after Jesus Christ will defeat satan) and into a Kingdom of Heaven to pass the Day of Judgement by having a True Faith in God (the Father / Creator, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit). I am not wise enough to repent fully yet, but I will recommend that for anyone, who know's maybe you will be quicker than me, it will only help you. Because living in a sin with recognition that it is a sin and that is bad and not accepting it as your path, while not being fully on the right path is still a suffering, once my mask of hypocrite is off in front of those who are fully repented and still didn't fall for a sin.

So for me this discussion doesn't make any sense, why to speak about something that is false and will be destroyed like it does matter? For sake of winning the argument that didn't even started, I would say that my interest in typologies might be still an escapism and it might be that I do justify it with God's (the Father / Creator, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit) given purpose, that it can be as harmful as this types of topic that are leading to nothing in my opinion. Sure having a government is an instrument that can be more or less proper used (not like 100% utopia though, since it might devalue Millennial Kingdom and Kingdom of Heaven, which is how it is, since we have a free will and some people will abuse it and others will not) through Jesus Christ.

[reboun]

The genetic differences between Turks and the peoples of the Balkans, such as Greeks and Serbs, are quite clear. However, it is more difficult to identify these differences among closely related ethnic groups, such as Ukrainians and Swedes.

There are lots of Turkish people (at least 1/4 of Turkish population) plot in Balkans. Turkish averages on GEDmatch calculators clearly show there is a significant Balkan ancestry among Turks.

[Mortimer]

There are lots of Turkish people (at least 1/3 of Turkish population) plot in Balkans. Turkish averages on GEDmatch calculators clearly show there is a significant Balkan ancestry among Turks.

Balkan people are one big turkish family some (greeks serbs etc) denie it but some love it and embrace their turkishness like bosniaks

[Dušan]

A Ukrainian who plot closest to Swedish average doesn't mean that person is ethnically Swedish. He or she is still ethnically Ukrainian.

In my opinion, people who took ethnicity DNA tests take those results too seriously. I have even seen people who changed their ethnic identification as they saw the results, which is really ridiculous.

Ethnic Ukrainian with 4 Ukrainian grandparents will not plot near Swedish average.

Autosomal genetics is sience and should take seriously.

[Dior Haines]

There are lots of Turkish people (at least 1/4 of Turkish population) plot in Balkans. Turkish averages on GEDmatch calculators clearly show there is a significant Balkan ancestry among Turks.
These people are mostly Greeks and Balkan who have been assimilated. I, too, from the Caucasus.

[villainchai]

I never liked the full-on obsession with autosomal DNA and G25 on here - sure, it's interesting, but certainly NOT the only aspect to anthropology. Stuff like linguistics or cultural discussion gets dismissed here or even made fun of at times, despite it arguably being a bigger part of anthropology than figuring out which calculator can tell you how much DNA you share with a banana.

That being said you're right. All a DNA test can do is compare segments of your DNA to populations they have in a database labeled as various things. The metrics vary wildly between companies. It's cool to use those tools to figure out where a group came from, what their exact ancestry might be, etc. but it's not the be all end all of ethnic belonging. Was fascinating to know that Moravian Slovaks, myself included, cluster with West Ukrainians. At the end of the day? I'm still a Central/Eastern European mutt whose family lived for centuries in what I call the Danubian cultural zone. xD I do not have that much in common with the people I cluster with. So how relevant is it really? Does it really need to be the only aspect of anthropology that even gets entertained?

[AnthrogenicaRefugee]

Since when do Swedes plot with Ukrainians. Maybe on a global PCA, but then most of Europe will be tightly clustered together.

[villainchai]

Since when do Swedes plot with Ukrainians. Maybe on a global PCA, but then most of Europe will be tightly clustered together.

Tbh I took that as him intentionally being hyperbolic to make a point

[Lioncourt]

Some European populations are almost interchangeable, so yes. However, it gives the rough idea. If you plot with Bulgarians, you could be Romanian, maybe a significantly southern shifted Serb, but not Spanish or Norwegian.

[Dior Haines]

Since when do Swedes plot with Ukrainians. Maybe on a global PCA, but then most of Europe will be tightly clustered together.
I didn't understand the meaning either. It seemed to me that he was saying that a Ukrainian with Swedish ancestry or someone who is genetically close to the Swedes cannot be considered a Swede.

[reboun]

These people are mostly Greeks and Balkan who have been assimilated. I, too, from the Caucasus.

Bosniaks, Circassians, Turkmens, Kurds, Levantines, Albanians... All are equally Turkish. In Turkey, you cannot say "you are not ethnically Turkish because you are of Circassian origin". If you say so, you are f.cked up.

Turkishness has nothing to do with genetics.

[AnthrogenicaRefugee]

Bosniaks, Circassians, Turkmens, Kurds, Levantines, Albanians... All are equally Turkish. In Turkey, you cannot say "you are not ethnically Turkish because you are of Circassian origin". If you say so, you are f.cked up.

Turkishness has nothing to do with genetics.

United States of Turkey

[Mortimer]

Bosniaks, Circassians, Turkmens, Kurds, Levantines, Albanians... All are equally Turkish. In Turkey, you cannot say "you are not ethnically Turkish because you are of Circassian origin". If you say so, you are f.cked up.

Turkishness has nothing to do with genetics.

You will probably have a problem if you say so which is not really freedom

[reboun]

Ethnic Ukrainian with 4 Ukrainian grandparents will not plot near Swedish average.

Autosomal genetics is sience and should take seriously.

Maybe all their 10. degree grandparents once migrated from Sweden to Ukraine and eventually assimilated into Ukrainian culture?

[Mortimer]

Maybe all their 10. degree grandparents once migrated from Sweden to Ukraine and eventually assimilated into Ukrainian culture?

But for you your migration history is not that old though
Your grandparents were born in bosnia you said

[Dior Haines]

You should probably accept that you are genetically more of a Balkan Slav than a Turk. But that does not negate your Turkish national identity. I have noticed that you often bring up this issue

[Dušan]

Maybe all their 10. degree grandparents once migrated from Sweden to Ukraine and eventually assimilated into Ukrainian culture?

In that case they would have been mix with Ukrainians over generations, and eventualy will plot within Ukrainian cluster, and away from Swedish one.

I dont know why your Bosniak grandparents after they moved to Turkey remain ghettoized and didnt mix with ethnic Turks.
That is how it is. You cannot change past, but can influnce on future.
You can find ethnic Turkish woman so your children be half genetic Turks.

[Dušan]

You should probably accept that you are genetically more of a Balkan Slav than a Turk. But that does not negate your Turkish national identity. I have noticed that you often bring up this issue

I think he plots completly within South Slavic average, and dont have any real Turkish ancestry.

Thus his complexes over and over again.

[nittionia]

The Rurik family has strong genes :cool:

On an interesting note, there was a genetic study done on individuals living in Gammalsvenskby (Zmiivka) in Ukraine, a village of Estonian-Swede settlers. It was found that the inhabitants are genetically closest to modern day Balts, despite being Swedish culturally and linguistically.

[reboun]

You should probably accept that you are genetically more of a Balkan Slav than a Turk. But that does not negate your Turkish national identity. I have noticed that you often bring up this issue


In that case they would have been mix with Ukrainians over generations, and eventualy will plot within Ukrainian cluster, and away from Swedish one.

I dont know why your Bosniak grandparents after they moved to Turkey remain ghettoized and didnt mix with ethnic Turks.
That is how it is. You cannot change past, but can influnce on future.
You can find ethnic Turkish woman so your children be half genetic Turks.


I think he plots completly within South Slavic average, and dont have any real Turkish ancestry.

Thus his complexes over and over again.

I again state there is no such thing as "being genetically Turkish". All the genetic groups in Turkey are equally Turkish as long as they respect Turkish values and identify as Turkish.

[reboun]

But for you your migration history is not that old though
Your grandparents were born in bosnia you said

It was just an example.

[reboun]

The Rurik family has strong genes :cool:

On an interesting note, there was a genetic study done on individuals living in Gammalsvenskby (Zmiivka) in Ukraine, a village of Estonian-Swede settlers. It was found that the inhabitants are genetically closest to modern day Balts, despite being Swedish culturally and linguistically.

But they still identify as Swedish, right?

[Mortimer]

It was just an example.

As bosniak in turkey you are probably turkish but in Austria if you were a turk with grandparents from turkey you still would be a Ausländer foreigner maybe your situation is comparable to germans from eastern europe who were deported to Germany after world war 2

[nittionia]

But they still identify as Swedish, right?

Yes, and many of them voted to relocate back to Sweden in the 1920's and the Swedish Riksdag allowed this. Today most of the residents have fled since the Russian invasion too.

[Dušan]

I again state there is no such thing as "being genetically Turkish". All the genetic groups in Turkey are equally Turkish as long as they respect Turkish values and identify as Turkish.

@Opie

@Hektor12

[Hektor12]

@Opie

@Hektor12

Bro, no, thanks. Im done with this dude, hes your blood and you have to deal with him, please be responsible.

[Opie]

@Opie

@Hektor12

Do you want our opinion?

There are two clusters of Turkish: Balkan and Anatolian Turks. I accept both as Turkish, but I don't accept every Turkish citizen as Turk. They are Turkish in civic sense not in ethnic sense period.

[Mortimer]

Do you want our opinion?

There are two clusters of Turkish: Balkan and Anatolian Turks. I accept both as Turkish, but I don't accept every Turkish citizen as Turk. They are Turkish in civic sense not in ethnic sense period.

Yes i think that makes sense or there could be afro turks too equally turkish

[Dušan]

Do you want our opinion?

There are two clusters of Turkish: Balkan and Anatolian Turks. I accept both as Turkish, but I don't accept every Turkish citizen as Turk. They are Turkish in civic sense not in ethnic sense period.

There are real Balkan Turks, who have some Turkic ancestry, forum members Thracian and Kaspias are part of them.

This guy full descendant of Bosniak immigrants.

[Mortimer]

There are real Balkan Turks, who have some Turkic ancestry, forum members Thracian and Kaspias are part of them.

This guy full descendant of Bosniak immigrants.

And i think Balkan turks would not cluster as far north as bosnia maybe in bulgaria

[Dušan]

Kaspias explained to you 6 years ago


There have never been Turks beyond this line:

https://i.ibb.co/C1LgPCd/Ads-z.png

And Turks who live in SE Serbia fled to Thrace after the Serbian revolution. There is a small community in Prizren that still stands as the northernmost border of Turkishness.

But Bosnia? Not likely. Even the people who have been identifying Turk until today(~1%) are actually Bosniaks.


By the way, although my grand parents all lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina before 1950's and 1960's, I never felt like I am Bosnian. I always felt and feel Turkish.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338143-Might-I-also-be-partly-Turkic&p=7024384&viewfull=1#post7024384

[Opie]

There are real Balkan Turks, who have some Turkic ancestry, forum members Thracian and Kaspias are part of them.

This guy full descendant of Bosniak immigrants.

Then he is Bosnian.

[Gannicus]

A Ukrainian who plot closest to Swedish average doesn't mean that person is ethnically Swedish. He or she is still ethnically Ukrainian.

In my opinion, people who took ethnicity DNA tests take those results too seriously. I have even seen people who changed their ethnic identification as they saw the results, which is really ridiculous.

On PCA a Ukrainian wouldn't necessarily plot too close to Swedes. But it depends on the level. Zoomed out they'd be in the European cluster that includes Scandinavia and Eastern Europe. There is still a further back connection between Ukrainians and Swedes. It lies with the Western Steppe Herders and the Anatolian Neolithic farmers. Those two ancestral sources are present in all Europeans today. And further dissecting those elements, Western steppe herders are a mix of Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers. There seems a to be an Iran Neolithic component in there too. Anatolian neolithic farmers come from local Anatolian hunter-gatherers along with some Natufian admixture. These components are also part of Near Eastern populations. Which is why population geneticists classify Europeans and Near Easterners as West Eurasians.

If a Ukrainian took a DNA test and it showed 5% Swedish, then it could be from an actual population level event. Such as the early medieval Scandinavians settling in areas that is now Russia and Ukraine for trade purposes. They wanted to trade with the Byzantines (Eastern Romans) in Constantinople and the Islamic Caliphate in Baghdad. It's still part of them, but it's not likely from a more recent direct ancestor 5-6 generations ago.

Sure, it's an estimate, but the reason it's an estimate. It's because there is genetic overlap between populations. Even academic tools like qpAdm provide estimates in the form of Standard Errors.

People often take a rigid stance when it comes to identity. I cannot because I look at the genetic data and it does not adhere to country borders at all. Within some reason of course. I'll go back to the Ukrainian example. That person that has 5% "Swedish" admixture can claim some slight kinship and affinity in my view. Just not as much as someone that genetically has more ties from there.

Let's look at Turks for example. This is cool song. I like it myself:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXsLlOPwe48&list=RDaXsLlOPwe48&start_radio=1

The main artist is a Turk, and the Female artists are from Siberia, Krasnoyarsk Krai. This area is the same general area where the Turkic urheimat is. I see it on the internet a lot. Turks have a special Interest in Atilla the Hun (Xiongnu) and have an interest in Tengrism. Turks from Anatolia have some admixture that relates to this area; however, it's a small amount. Some figures I've seen put it at 5-15% on average. Whatever the figure is it may still be considered a "small" amount. I'm not going to be a gatekeeper and say Turks from Anatolia have no connection to that region. I will add nuance though and say that they have some connection to the region, but have more ancestry from West Asia.

[Dušan]

Then he is Bosnian.

I find it funny how he knows that all 4 his grandparents came to Turkey as Slavic speaking Muslims from Bosnia in 1960, yet claim DNA test are false and he is ethnic Turk.

[Jingle Bell]

i get what u saying but ur example is not good, a much better one would be between spaniards and portugueses or even iberians and nothern italians. Yeah, u cannot be 100% sure by someone ethnic background by just looking where he plot in PCA (i plot in NA, im almost 0% NA, a half german/lebanese would plot in Italy/Greece, even if he is 0% italo-greek). But for not mixed individuals thing are rather clear, i alr saw some more MENA rich spaniards be equally distant between north/center italians and other iberians, that dont makes him non-iberian.

[Klamar]

A Ukrainian who plot closest to Swedish average doesn't mean that person is ethnically Swedish. He or she is still ethnically Ukrainian.

In my opinion, people who took ethnicity DNA tests take those results too seriously. I have even seen people who changed their ethnic identification as they saw the results, which is really ridiculous.

Ukrainians plot quite far from Swedes, I am not sure what your point is here? There are some who do not consider DNA as part of ethnicity, but this is rather reserved for populations like Prussians or Baltic Germans, or Eastern Black Sea Turks.

[Klamar]

Bosniaks, Circassians, Turkmens, Kurds, Levantines, Albanians... All are equally Turkish. In Turkey, you cannot say "you are not ethnically Turkish because you are of Circassian origin". If you say so, you are f.cked up.

Turkishness has nothing to do with genetics.

Except you can and people do say that they are not ethnically Turkish? I mean, one of the populations you listed supported a brutal separatist movement for decades. Not to mention none of these groups consider Turkishness as an ethnic identity.

[Klamar]

There are lots of Turkish people (at least 1/4 of Turkish population) plot in Balkans. Turkish averages on GEDmatch calculators clearly show there is a significant Balkan ancestry among Turks.

All Balkan Turks, even Macedonian Turks, have medieval Turkic input and they’re not 100% same as Bulgarians or other Eastern South Slavs. More importantly, they have their own history, food, culture, and language, and they and their ancestors have identified as Turks. Civic identity is different from ethnic identity.

[Narration]

United States of Turkey

Before genealogical DNA tests, there has been a rhetoric in Turkey which says ”we are all Turkish citizens and we all came from many different lands and settled in Anatolia, mixed with each other and eventually modern Turkish ethnicity has been formed”. Such rhetoric was just an assumption and people who claim that would not guess their discourse might one day be proven wrong. Genealogical DNA tests disproved their claim.

Instead of writing false scenarios, the following should have been said. ”There are lots of people with different ethnic backgrounds in Turkey and we shall not do any ethnic segregation between our compatriots.”

[Mortimer]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?400951-Can-i-pass-where-i-genetically-cluster-or-not

[reboun]

Before genealogical DNA tests, there has been a rhetoric in Turkey which says ”we are all Turkish citizens and we all came from many different lands and settled in Anatolia, mixed with each other and eventually modern Turkish ethnicity has been formed”. Such rhetoric was just an assumption and people who claim that would not guess their discourse might one day be proven wrong. Genealogical DNA tests disproved their claim.

Instead of writing false scenarios, the following should have been said. ”There are lots of people with different ethnic backgrounds in Turkey and we shall not do any ethnic segregation between our compatriots.”

It is not a rhetoric, it is a fact.

[Dušan]

It is not a rhetoric, it is a fact.

You are relatively recent immigrant to Turkey from 1960s.
100 years ago none of your ancestors were in Turkey.

Da li se u tvojoj kući i dalje govori srpski/bosanski?

[Kowalski]

Millennial Kingdom (of Jesus Christ on the planet Earth, after Jesus Christ will defeat satan)

I shall re-think this part on my own choice.

[reboun]

You are relatively recent immigrant to Turkey from 1960s.
100 years ago none of your ancestors were in Turkey.

Da li se u tvojoj kući i dalje govori srpski/bosanski?

No, my parents did not teach me. They also can speak a little Bosnian.

[reboun]

Before genealogical DNA tests, there has been a rhetoric in Turkey which says ”we are all Turkish citizens and we all came from many different lands and settled in Anatolia, mixed with each other and eventually modern Turkish ethnicity has been formed”. Such rhetoric was just an assumption and people who claim that would not guess their discourse might one day be proven wrong. Genealogical DNA tests disproved their claim.

Instead of writing false scenarios, the following should have been said. ”There are lots of people with different ethnic backgrounds in Turkey and we shall not do any ethnic segregation between our compatriots.”

DNA tests did not disprove it. I can find a lot of Turks who are genetically closest to other ethnicities.

[konservativ]

A Ukrainian who plot closest to Swedish average doesn't mean that person is ethnically Swedish. He or she is still ethnically Ukrainian.

In my opinion, people who took ethnicity DNA tests take those results too seriously. I have even seen people who changed their ethnic identification as they saw the results, which is really ridiculous.

Ethnicity is a social construct and is self-declared.
Genealogy testing is a scientific tool that can help you find out what the people you match the most from a biological standpoint have declared as their ethnicity.
The two won't necessarily match.
Case A : Mixed people / mixed ethnic groups (you qualify here). A more in depth analysis is necessary to isolate the different gene pools that make up your ancestry.
Case B : Unmixed regional groups
Case C : Displaced populations (you qualify here too)

[Dardanos]

We need to differentiate between Turkophonic people and people with Turkic ancestry. Most of the "Turk" population in Kosovo consists of Turkophonic people who, after 1912, chose an Ottoman identification rather than an Albanian one. Most Turks in Kosovo have Albanian tribal surnames that were simply Turkified.
Examples include Thaqi to Taç, Bytyqi to Bütüç, Mazreku to Mazrek, and Krasniqi to Krasniç. For example, among members of KDTP, the biggest Turkish political party in Kosovo, about 90 percent of their members are Albanians who have used Turkish orthography to write their names. I have seen two Prizren "Turk" DNA tests, and both showed 0 percent Turkic ancestry.
https://i.ibb.co/7dZJ5fYt/Screenshot-20260130-101028-Chrome.jpg

Secondly, I do not know about Bosniaks in Turkey, but Albanians, from what I have seen, are very proud of being both Albanian and Turkish. You will see the Albanian flag or eagle everywhere inside their communities. I have distant family members in Turkey, and they speak Albanian. Not all of them, but most do.

[Defcon2]

I don't understand why the OP rejects their ethnic origin and pretends to be something they're not. I imagine it's out of a desire to fit in with the people around them.

In my case, there's a similar situation on a smaller scale. My parents were born on the other side of the country, in a different region, and emigrated to where I am now during the 90s. I never felt the need to reject my ethnic origin and pretend to be something else, even though I was born here. I identify more with my parents' ancestral origins.

I prefer authenticity or truth to social conformity, which is often just something very superficial and ultimately harmful.

[Narration]

I don't understand why the OP rejects their ethnic origin and pretends to be something they're not. I imagine it's out of a desire to fit in with the people around them.

In my case, there's a similar situation on a smaller scale. My parents were born on the other side of the country, in a different region, and emigrated to where I am now during the 90s. I never felt the need to reject my ethnic origin and pretend to be something else, even though I was born here. I identify more with my parents' ancestral origins.

I prefer authenticity or truth to social conformity, which is often just something very superficial and ultimately harmful.

He actually denies the genetic basis of Turkish ethnicity. I have no problem he identifies as a Turk but I don't accept if he claims Turkish ethnicity has no racial basis.

[Katarzyna]

First of all: A Ukrainian will not plot like a Scandinavian in any modern calculator. Only in ancient one they might have same amount of basal components (similar European HG, EEF, Steppe) but will have different distances cause Ukrainians are Balto-Slavic drifted.

I agree that determining one’s ethnicity (or meta ethnicity among Europeans) should not be abused to discriminate certain groups although it is sometimes fun to make a playful competition (as long as boundaries are respected ofc)

[reboun]

We need to differentiate between Turkophonic people and people with Turkic ancestry. Most of the "Turk" population in Kosovo consists of Turkophonic people who, after 1912, chose an Ottoman identification rather than an Albanian one. Most Turks in Kosovo have Albanian tribal surnames that were simply Turkified.
Examples include Thaqi to Taç, Bytyqi to Bütüç, Mazreku to Mazrek, and Krasniqi to Krasniç. For example, among members of KDTP, the biggest Turkish political party in Kosovo, about 90 percent of their members are Albanians who have used Turkish orthography to write their names. I have seen two Prizren "Turk" DNA tests, and both showed 0 percent Turkic ancestry.
https://i.ibb.co/7dZJ5fYt/Screenshot-20260130-101028-Chrome.jpg

Secondly, I do not know about Bosniaks in Turkey, but Albanians, from what I have seen, are very proud of being both Albanian and Turkish. You will see the Albanian flag or eagle everywhere inside their communities. I have distant family members in Turkey, and they speak Albanian. Not all of them, but most do.

Turkish ethnicity is not based on genetic similarity. It is based on culture and linguistics. In Turkey, it is very common to have friends, neighbors, colleagues who are very different from each other in terms of ancestry.

[reboun]

First of all: A Ukrainian will not plot like a Scandinavian in any modern calculator. Only in ancient one they might have same amount of basal components (similar European HG, EEF, Steppe) but will have different distances cause Ukrainians are Balto-Slavic drifted.

I agree that determining one’s ethnicity (or meta ethnicity among Europeans) should not be abused to discriminate certain groups although it is sometimes fun to make a playful competition (as long as boundaries are respected ofc)

I just gave an abstract example, I don't really know about Ukrainian ethnogenesis. However, I am 100% sure there are Anatolian Turk samples who plot closest to Balkans in GEDmatch database. But unfortunately, individual samples on GEDmatch are not publicly accessible. We can only see regional averages.