Grandfather's G25

[Kostek]

What bothered me since I got my grandpa's G25 coordinates was that he often scores some minor West Asia/Caucasus. On Ancestry he scored 1% Levant, on FTDNA 4% Middle East (2% Druze, 2% Anatolia) and on Illustrative Middle Ages Breakdown - 8.8% North Caucasian. Do you think it's just noise or some distant ancestry? Afterall, he comes from Podolia, which was pretty much a constant battlefield.

Here are his coordinates:
Grandpa_scaled,0.126344,0.128972,0.057699,0.053295 ,0.030467,0.020359,0.01081,0.008538,-0.008795,-0.012939,-0.002436,-0.005545,0.011596,0.026836,-0.013708,-0.00411,0.00352,0.001647,0.000754,-0.007003,-0.009608,0.001607,0.002711,-0.006868,0.001676

[Dušan]

Distance to: Grandpa_scaled
0.02112549 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02308567 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02492359 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02494526 Moldovan_o
0.02508022 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02590523 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02657828 Polish
0.02779962 Russian_Belgorod
0.02786133 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02812417 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02884388 Russian_Orel
0.02932227 Russian_Voronez
0.03082311 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03144953 Russian_Smolensk
0.03156072 Russian_Ryazan
0.03210696 Russian_Kursk
0.03232318 Slovakian
0.03340115 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03367694 Polish_Silesian
0.03428497 Slovenian
0.03490953 Czech
0.03516594 Belarusian
0.03529440 Croatian
0.03599079 Hungarian
0.03671736 Russian_Kaluga



Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.5250% / 0.01524998 | R3P
72.0 Belarusian
22.0 Macedonian
6.0 Georgian_Mtiuleti


Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.4924% / 0.01492430 | ADC: 0.25x RC
40.2 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
23.0 Ukrainian_Sumy
19.4 Ukrainian_Rivne
12.2 Macedonian
2.6 Georgian_Mtiuleti
2.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.4 Ju_hoan_North

[Dušan]

Your grandparents autosomal profile is very Ukrainian.
Is it common for Poles?

[Kostek]

Your grandparents autosomal profile is very Ukrainian.
Is it common for Poles?

Even he doesn't know if he's ethnically Polish, and I think that's the case for many families from Kresy

For instance, his grandfather identified as Polish, but his younger brother identified as Ukranian. This brother of his even fought in the Polish-Ukranian war on the Ukranian side.

[Dušan]

Even he doesn't know if he's ethnically Polish, and I think that's the case for many families from Kresy

For instance, his grandfather identified as Polish, but his younger brother identified as Ukranian. This brother of his even fought in the Polish-Ukranian war on the Ukranian side.

Interesting. According to this, there were fluid identities of Ukrainians both in east (toward Russians) and west (toward Poles).
Does he speak Polish or Ukrainian, is he Catholic or Orthodox?

[Sonny001]

What bothered me since I got my grandpa's G25 coordinates was that he often scores some minor West Asia/Caucasus. On Ancestry he scored 1% Levant, on FTDNA 4% Middle East (2% Druze, 2% Anatolia) and on Illustrative Middle Ages Breakdown - 8.8% North Caucasian. Do you think it's just noise or some distant ancestry? Afterall, he comes from Podolia, which was pretty much a constant battlefield.

Here are his coordinates:
Grandpa_scaled,0.126344,0.128972,0.057699,0.053295 ,0.030467,0.020359,0.01081,0.008538,-0.008795,-0.012939,-0.002436,-0.005545,0.011596,0.026836,-0.013708,-0.00411,0.00352,0.001647,0.000754,-0.007003,-0.009608,0.001607,0.002711,-0.006868,0.001676

Many Poles have traces of Ashkenazi or Caucasus ancestry due to assimilated Alans in certain regions, while the Druze are 100% of a signal of small Jewish or East Mediterranean admixture.

[Kostek]

Interesting. According to this, there were fluid identities of Ukrainians both in east (toward Russians) and west (toward Poles).
Does he speak Polish or Ukrainian, is he Catholic or Orthodox?

He speaks only Polish but his parents spoke both languages. At that time Poles knew Ukranian well and vice versa, he was just 5 when he was resettled with his family so, he didn't learn Ukranian. He was born in Greek Catholic parish but is Roman Catholic. I know it seems weird, but as he recalled, his family attended both churches, preferably the one that was closer to them at the moment.

[Peterski]

You should add your grandfather to the Poles from Kresy Project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy/about

BTW have you already uploaded his raw DNA data to GEDmatch?:

https://www.gedmatch.com/

[Kostek]

You should add your grandfather to the Poles from Kresy Project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polesfrom-kresy/about

BTW have you already uploaded his raw DNA data to GEDmatch?:

https://www.gedmatch.com/

I'm not sure how :confused:

Yes, I already uploaded his data on GEDmatch

[Peterski]

I'm not sure how :confused:

You need to click the "Join" button on the right side of the screen.
Of course before clicking you need to log into his FTDNA account.


Yes, I already uploaded his data on GEDmatch

Post his Eurogenes K36 calculator results (admixture percentages).

[Katarzyna]

Kostek, would you share your own G25 for comparison?

[Luke35]

Your grandpa does get modeled with some Lebanese. You could give the source below a try with your coords and see what happens. Probably a flawed and overly simplistic approach on my part, but it's a start.

Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 2.2004% / 0.02200407
92.4 Polish
6.6 Lebanese_Muslim
1.0 Lebanese_Druze

Source:

Polish,0.13184,0.12927,0.069868,0.057738,0.040676, 0.021713,0.008678,0.010863,-0.000933,-0.018553,-0.004349,-0.006419,0.013093,0.018629,-0.007024,-0.00056,0.001546,-7.4e-05,0.002695,0.001287,-0.003129,-0.003119,0.005606,-0.003333,-8.8e-05
Lebanese_Christian,0.088149,0.145785,-0.048858,-0.078848,-0.012891,-0.03074,-0.000496,-0.004282,0.005181,0.010225,0.006658,-0.004529,0.01039,0,-0.010315,0.008471,-0.002101,0.001788,0.002542,-0.000125,0.000763,-0.000302,-0.00141,0.002356,-0.001211
Lebanese_Druze,0.084115,0.140448,-0.049667,-0.070091,-0.015664,-0.025184,-0.002421,-0.005331,-0.002311,0.007599,0.005148,-0.003027,0.009083,0.002023,-0.006867,0.006165,-0.002086,0.000836,0.002476,-0.000913,-0.001323,0.001941,0.000246,0.002518,-0.000587
Lebanese_Maronite_Christian_Zgharta,0.090072,0.143 446,-0.05273,-0.078836,-0.012616,-0.027342,-0.001917,-0.006092,0.002606,0.008529,0.006113,-0.004902,0.011294,0.003043,-0.008313,0.004614,-0.002487,0.001532,0.002984,-0.002396,-0.000208,0.002539,-0.001719,0.001531,0.001252
Lebanese_Muslim,0.075744,0.134788,-0.045049,-0.067273,-0.016478,-0.022311,-0.000791,-0.00579,0.000576,0.003645,0.004591,-0.003828,0.012014,0.002803,-0.008649,0.003869,-0.002359,0.000415,0.001623,0.000705,-0.00169,-0.001147,-0.003081,0.001764,-0.000675
Lebanese_Orthodox_Christian_Koura,0.084988,0.14469 4,-0.050814,-0.079426,-0.01345,-0.029173,-0.003249,-0.006216,0.003194,0.007951,0.006309,-0.005188,0.010654,0.002773,-0.008271,0.00503,-0.001729,0.001678,0.002615,-0.002149,-2e-05,0.002064,-0.001071,0.002838,-0.000732
Lebanese_Shia_Muslim_Beirut,0.074432,0.134739,-0.050292,-0.068488,-0.014937,-0.022261,-0.00167,-0.005118,0.000628,0.004107,0.005109,-0.003693,0.008867,0.002153,-0.003582,0.005299,-0.001313,0.00048,0.001118,-0.001648,-8.9e-05,0.000967,-0.000955,0.001816,0.001497
Lebanese_Sunni_Muslim_Beirut,0.061409,0.131647,-0.046064,-0.067736,-0.016701,-0.022121,-0.003044,-0.00376,0.0023,0.002693,0.004602,-0.004302,0.010704,0.001766,-0.003492,0.003425,-0.004659,0.000705,0.002152,-0.002288,-0.000673,0.000878,-0.000364,0.000223,-0.000152
Lebanese_Sunni_Muslim_Dinniyeh,0.09002,0.144722,-0.052519,-0.079458,-0.014972,-0.028373,-0.001864,-0.006587,0.000524,0.00767,0.007222,-0.004914,0.010156,0.004088,-0.009127,0.002419,-0.0043,0.002327,0.002212,-0.002481,0.000105,0.00318,-0.002048,0.001831,-0.000326

[Jingle Bell]

Yeah, seens that he is slighty shifted, but that does not mean he have any exotic ancestry, it is under the normal variation range.

Distance to: Grandpa_scaled
0.02270260 Ukrainian_Sumy:EG600086
0.02399793 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr:EG600050
0.02471733 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600095
0.02485887 Ukrainian_Rivne:EG600043
0.02567584 Polish:Polish22
0.02577445 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr:EG600045
0.02631361 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600096
0.02674204 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600027
0.02706730 Ukrainian_Rivne:EG600042
0.02716642 Ukrainian_Lviv:EG600089
0.02735793 Ukrainian_Sumy:EG600082
0.02748643 Ukrainian_Lviv:EG600064
0.02764429 Ukrainian_Lviv:EG600018
0.02767671 Ukrainian_Chernihiv:EG600053
0.02775966 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600003
0.02790756 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr:EG600047
0.02803438 Ukrainian_Lviv:EG600006
0.02821653 Ukrainian_Lviv:EG600062
0.02835965 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia:EG600020
0.02863573 Ukrainian_Dnipro:EG600072
0.02932060 Ukrainian_Sumy:EG600083
0.02935934 Ukrainian_Sumy:EG600080
0.02962065 Polish:Polish31
0.02963975 Polish:Polish25
0.02964290 Polish:Polish30

[Kostek]

You need to click the "Join" button on the right side of the screen.
Of course before clicking you need to log into his FTDNA account.



Post his Eurogenes K36 calculator results (admixture percentages).

Sure thing
Grandpa:

Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 0.85%
Basque 2.14%
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.89%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 9.73%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 22.62%
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 17.90%
Fennoscandian 7.92%
French -
Iberian 2.40%
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 4.85%
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 3.52%
North_Caucasian 5.91%
North_Sea 9.60%
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy 0.12%
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 0.69%
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.31%
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.45%
West_Med 2.09%

Me for comparison:
Amerindian -
Arabian 1.23%
Armenian -
Basque 1.70%
Central_African -
Central_Euro 8.14%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.60%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 22.64%
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 20.93%
Fennoscandian 9.20%
French 1.08%
Iberian 7.95%
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 4.17%
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 11.59%
North_Caucasian 2.19%
North_Sea 2.58%
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.01%
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

[Kostek]

Kostek, would you share your own G25 for comparison?

Of course, but the rest of my family is mostly from central Poland so we very much differ

Kostek_scaled,0.124067,0.13405,0.06939,0.062662,0. 037545,0.029562,0.01034,0.011307,0.003068,-0.019135,0.000487,-0.007044,0.018583,0.027937,-0.009229,-0.008751,-0.012517,-0.002534,0.004777,-0.005378,-0.003993,-0.005812,0.006039,0.001084,0.005029

[Kostek]

Your grandpa does get modeled with some Lebanese. You could give the source below a try with your coords and see what happens. Probably a flawed and overly simplistic approach on my part, but it's a start.

Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 2.2004% / 0.02200407
92.4 Polish
6.6 Lebanese_Muslim
1.0 Lebanese_Druze

Source:

Polish,0.13184,0.12927,0.069868,0.057738,0.040676, 0.021713,0.008678,0.010863,-0.000933,-0.018553,-0.004349,-0.006419,0.013093,0.018629,-0.007024,-0.00056,0.001546,-7.4e-05,0.002695,0.001287,-0.003129,-0.003119,0.005606,-0.003333,-8.8e-05
Lebanese_Christian,0.088149,0.145785,-0.048858,-0.078848,-0.012891,-0.03074,-0.000496,-0.004282,0.005181,0.010225,0.006658,-0.004529,0.01039,0,-0.010315,0.008471,-0.002101,0.001788,0.002542,-0.000125,0.000763,-0.000302,-0.00141,0.002356,-0.001211
Lebanese_Druze,0.084115,0.140448,-0.049667,-0.070091,-0.015664,-0.025184,-0.002421,-0.005331,-0.002311,0.007599,0.005148,-0.003027,0.009083,0.002023,-0.006867,0.006165,-0.002086,0.000836,0.002476,-0.000913,-0.001323,0.001941,0.000246,0.002518,-0.000587
Lebanese_Maronite_Christian_Zgharta,0.090072,0.143 446,-0.05273,-0.078836,-0.012616,-0.027342,-0.001917,-0.006092,0.002606,0.008529,0.006113,-0.004902,0.011294,0.003043,-0.008313,0.004614,-0.002487,0.001532,0.002984,-0.002396,-0.000208,0.002539,-0.001719,0.001531,0.001252
Lebanese_Muslim,0.075744,0.134788,-0.045049,-0.067273,-0.016478,-0.022311,-0.000791,-0.00579,0.000576,0.003645,0.004591,-0.003828,0.012014,0.002803,-0.008649,0.003869,-0.002359,0.000415,0.001623,0.000705,-0.00169,-0.001147,-0.003081,0.001764,-0.000675
Lebanese_Orthodox_Christian_Koura,0.084988,0.14469 4,-0.050814,-0.079426,-0.01345,-0.029173,-0.003249,-0.006216,0.003194,0.007951,0.006309,-0.005188,0.010654,0.002773,-0.008271,0.00503,-0.001729,0.001678,0.002615,-0.002149,-2e-05,0.002064,-0.001071,0.002838,-0.000732
Lebanese_Shia_Muslim_Beirut,0.074432,0.134739,-0.050292,-0.068488,-0.014937,-0.022261,-0.00167,-0.005118,0.000628,0.004107,0.005109,-0.003693,0.008867,0.002153,-0.003582,0.005299,-0.001313,0.00048,0.001118,-0.001648,-8.9e-05,0.000967,-0.000955,0.001816,0.001497
Lebanese_Sunni_Muslim_Beirut,0.061409,0.131647,-0.046064,-0.067736,-0.016701,-0.022121,-0.003044,-0.00376,0.0023,0.002693,0.004602,-0.004302,0.010704,0.001766,-0.003492,0.003425,-0.004659,0.000705,0.002152,-0.002288,-0.000673,0.000878,-0.000364,0.000223,-0.000152
Lebanese_Sunni_Muslim_Dinniyeh,0.09002,0.144722,-0.052519,-0.079458,-0.014972,-0.028373,-0.001864,-0.006587,0.000524,0.00767,0.007222,-0.004914,0.010156,0.004088,-0.009127,0.002419,-0.0043,0.002327,0.002212,-0.002481,0.000105,0.00318,-0.002048,0.001831,-0.000326

7.6, quite a lot! :eek:

Target: Kostek_scaled
Distance: 2.6785% / 0.02678480
100.0 Polish

I tried some other Ukranian samples:

Target: East_European_Slavic_(Rusyn_Ukraine):Rusyn_Ukraine _(n=1)
Distance: 1.9463% / 0.01946297
86.0 Polish
8.8 Lebanese_Druze
5.2 Lebanese_Christian

Target: East_European_Slavic_(Ukrainian):Ukrainian_(n=24)
Distance: 1.2076% / 0.01207585
99.2 Polish
0.8 Lebanese_Sunni_Muslim_Beirut

[Peterski]

(...)

I think your grandpa looks like a mix of Polish with Ukrainian:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_PL_Lubelskie
0.7359490
Europe_UA_Donetsk-Oblast
0.8255380
Europe_UA_Vinnytsia-Oblast
0.8316219
Russia_RUS_Voronezh
0.8513548
Europe_UA_Dnipropetrovsk-Oblast
0.8527661
Europe_PL_Central-Poland
0.8571587
Europe_UA_Luhansk-Oblast
0.8650821
Russia_RUS_Oryol
0.8668922
Europe_PL_Swietokrzyskie
0.8839621
Europe_UA_Zhytomyr-Oblast
0.8902236
Europe_UA_Poltava-Oblast
0.9005382
Europe_PL_Radom
0.9044042
Europe_UA_Rivne-Oblast
0.9062058
Europe_UA_Sumy-Oblast
0.9145562
Europe_PL_Malopolskie
0.9192589
Europe_UA_Lviv-Oblast
0.9246745
Europe_PL_Podlaskie
0.9249265
Europe_UA_Chernihiv-Oblast
0.9284606
Europe_UA_Kiev-Oblast
0.9343939
Russia_RUS_Kursk
0.9390437
Europe_UA_Zakarpattia-Oblast
0.9439767
Europe_PL_Upper-Silesia
0.9489463
Europe_PL_Wielkopolskie:South
0.9560486
Europe_SK_Zemplin-Rusyns
0.9574487
(...)

[Luke35]

7.6, quite a lot! :eek:

Target: Kostek_scaled
Distance: 2.6785% / 0.02678480
100.0 Polish

I tried some other Ukranian samples:

Target: East_European_Slavic_(Rusyn_Ukraine):Rusyn_Ukraine _(n=1)
Distance: 1.9463% / 0.01946297
86.0 Polish
8.8 Lebanese_Druze
5.2 Lebanese_Christian

Target: East_European_Slavic_(Ukrainian):Ukrainian_(n=24)
Distance: 1.2076% / 0.01207585
99.2 Polish
0.8 Lebanese_Sunni_Muslim_Beirut

That Rusyn sample has Paleo Balkanic (or otherwise Southern) admixture that the Polish average surely does not, so the calculator might simply be adjusting for that, modeling with more Lebanese to try to get balance.

Let's try your grandpa with the Ukrainian average:

Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.8294% / 0.01829443
93.2 Ukrainian_(n=24)
6.8 Lebanese_Druze

Similar result.

So lets try the Western Ukrainian average:

Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 2.2494% / 0.02249352
100.0 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia_(n=25)

Okay, so Lebanese disappears when the southern-shifted (relative to Polish) Western Ukraine average is used in the source.

So, it could simply be that your grandpa is a little southern-shifted, a normal variation in the range of his ethnicity (as Jingle Bell suggested).

[Peterski]

He is close to my Vinnytsia Oblast average, which is Podolia.

[Peterski]

Jeśli chodzi o ten Projekt to teraz widzę, że już wcześniej byłeś członkiem! :)

Za to Katarzyna dołączyła jako nowa osoba.

[Fistora]

Distance to: Grandpa_scaled
0.01941576 Ukrainian_Ternopil_(n=2)
0.02096063 Ukrainian_Lviv_(n=11)
0.02249352 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia_(n=25)
0.02271696 Ukrainian_(n=24)
0.02467701 Ukrainian_Kropyvnytskyi_(n=2)
0.02482667 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_(n=11)
0.02599753 Polish_(n=60)
0.02810254 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk_(n=1)
0.03017505 Polish_Wielkopolska_(n=11)
0.03367656 Polish_Silesia_(n=2)
0.03567047 Polish_Mazovia_(n=2)
0.13088167 Ashkenazi_Jew_Russia_(n=10)
0.13174345 Ashkenazi_Jew_Ukraine_(n=24)
0.13228316 Ashkenazi_Jew_Belarus_(n=15)
0.13328481 Ashkenazi_Jew_(n=1203)
0.13369527 Ashkenazi_Jew_Lithuania_(n=11)
0.13536578 Ashkenazi_Jew_Poland_(n=26)
0.13569981 Ashkenazi_Jew_Romania_(n=2)
0.14101354 Ashkenazi_Jew_Latvia_(n=2)
0.14233841 Ashkenazi_Jew_Austria_(n=2)
0.14743952 Ashkenazi_Jew_Germany_(n=10)
0.14989968 Ashkenazi_Jew_France_(n=8)
0.15344598 Turkish_Istanbul_(Anatolian_Turk_Profile)_(n=8)
0.18584822 Druze_Israel_(n=12)
0.18729969 Druze_Lebanon_(n=11)

Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.6389% / 0.01638867
47.2 Ukrainian_(n=24)
42.4 Ukrainian_Ternopil_(n=2)
5.8 Polish_Mazovia_(n=2)
3.8 Druze_Lebanon_(n=11)
0.8 Turkish_Istanbul_(Anatolian_Turk_Profile)_(n=8)

Without Polish_Mazovia:
Target: Grandpa_scaled
Distance: 1.6438% / 0.01643813
52.2 Ukrainian_(n=24)
43.6 Ukrainian_Ternopil_(n=2)
3.4 Druze_Lebanon_(n=11)
0.8 Turkish_Istanbul_(Anatolian_Turk_Profile)_(n=8)

[Peterski]

It is interesting because in K36 he doesn't score any Near Eastern components, so where is Duze in G25 coming from?
I think his K36 is more reliable than G25 because with K36 he is close to Podolia (Vinnytsia Oblast), where he is from.

BTW is there a Polish_Lubelskie average in G25? Or Polish_Podkarpackie?

[Fistora]

It is interesting because in K36 he doesn't score any Near Eastern components, so where is Duze in G25 coming from?
I think his K36 is more reliable than G25 because with K36 he is close to Podolia (Vinnytsia Oblast), where he is from.

That little Middle Eastern admixture also shows up on FTDNA and Ancestry.

[Gannicus]

Distance to: Gannicus_MergedFile_officialDavidski_scaled
0.08515945 Grandpa_scaled

[Fistora]

It is interesting because in K36 he doesn't score any Near Eastern components, so where is Duze in G25 coming from?
I think his K36 is more reliable than G25 because with K36 he is close to Podolia (Vinnytsia Oblast), where he is from.

BTW is there a Polish_Lubelskie average in G25? Or Polish_Podkarpackie?

These people are 100% from podkarpackie, but their samples are not good reference for this region, they're strangely Baltic drifted
Polish_Podkarpackie_(n=2),0.135450,0.127449,0.0739 15,0.063631,0.042624,0.028447,0.008930,0.011769,-0.001432,-0.023873,-0.004060,-0.009816,0.009069,0.019061,-0.009161,0.001724,0.011930,0.001963,0.000440,0.000 000,-0.003993,-0.003957,0.009614,0.001506,0.001437