Latvian ties with the Nordic countries.

[Waidewut]

Brief, concentrated info.


Latvia has a long history of political, economical and cultural relations with the Nordic countries. During the Viking Age the indigenous tribes of present-day Latvia - the Baltic Couronians, Semigallians, Latgallians and Finnic Livs - both fought and traded with Scandinavian Vikings. The chief items of barter were bees-wax, furs, amber and silver. The Vikings travelled their so-called Eastern route, across the Baltic Sea, along the Daugava and Dnieper rivers and across the Black Sea towards Constantinople. The seafaring Couronians ("Latvian Vikings") from Courland and the Oeselians ("Estonian Vikings") from Saaremaa battled the Scandinavian Vikings and raided their lands. In 1187 they pillaged and sacked Sigtuna, by that time Sweden's largest and richest city. People in Denmark prayed: "save us Our God from the Couronian pirates". The Couronians participated in the Battle of Bråvalla on Swedish side against the Danes. Courland (or Kurland) and the Couronians (or Kurs) are mentioned in the Old Norse sagas, such as the Heimskringla and Egill Skallagrímsson's saga. Seeburg (now Grobiņa near Liepāja) was a Scandinavian settlement in Courland. Weapons, ornaments and large cemeteries of mixed Baltic and Viking character prove Swedes and Gotlanders were dwelling among the native population. Boats of the Couronians and Vikings were similar in construction and decoration. It is thought that in this age loanwords were adopted, like lord or king: in Swedish kung, Latvian kungs and Danish konung.

The Northern Crusades, undertaken by the kings of Denmark and Sweden and German Livonian and Teutonic military orders, brought Christianity to the pagan tribes of Latvia. The Reformation brought Protestant Lutheranism. Between 1560-1585 the Bishopric of Courland belonged to king Frederick II of Denmark, his brother Magnus of Holstein lived and died at Piltene. Between 1561-1721 the Duchy of Livonia, which constituted the southern part of modern Estonia and northern part of modern Latvia, became Swedish Livonia, a dominion of the Swedish Empire. These times became known as "the good Swedish period", although the local Baltic German upper class kept their strong political, economical and cultural dominance over the peasant people. Alongside Finns and Estonians, Latvians fought with the Swedes in the Thirty Years' War against the Holy Roman Empire. Livonia, Sweden and Gothland were part of the same Hanseatic League trading chamber, with first Visby and later Riga as its chief city. Duke Jacob (1642-1682) of Courland leased iron and copper mines in Norway to support ship building and global seafaring. The flags of Ventspils, Cēsis and Alūksne bear a Nordic cross. Like other Northern Europeans the Latvians celebrate Midsummer solistice and St. Johns Day.

An ethnic-linguistic minority of Latvia are the Finnic Livs. The Liv people are indigenous inhabitants of present-day Latvia and ancient Livonia. The nearly extinct Liv language is a Baltic-Finnic language related to Estonian, Finnish, Karelian, Veps and Votic. Researchers believe about 15,000-28,000 Livs to have lived in the 12th century. In 2011 there were 180 registered Livs in Latvia and about 30 native speakers in the world. The Livonian Coast (Livonian: Līvõd Rānda) in Northern Courland is a protected area encompassing twelve Livonian villages. The Liv Peoples House (Livonian: Līvõd Rovkuodā) is located in the Livonian village of Mazirbe (Livonian: Irē) and the Liv Culture Center (Livonian: Līvõ Kultūr Sidām) in Riga. The Liv language is taught in universities in Latvia, Estonia and Finland.

Since the early 1990s Latvia takes part in Nordic-Baltic cooperation (NB8: Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden), for which former Latvian Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Valdis Birkavs and former Danish Minister of Defence Søren Gade wrote the 2010 NB8 Wise Men Report. The NB6 (Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) is a framework for meetings on EU related issues. On August 30, 2011 the Nordic and Baltic countries signed an agreement on diplomatic cooperation. Latvia also cooperates with the Nordic countries within the Council of the Baltic Sea States and the European Union's Strategy for the Baltic Sea Region. The Nordic Council has an office in Riga and Latvia is a member of the Nordic Investment Bank. The Nordic countries are among the most important trading partners of Latvia.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries#Latvia)

Many will think of this as troll thread, which it is not. This is only an informative thread consisting of info about the history and culture of my country and people.

In no way I am expressing my personal opinion about the topic: Latvians/ Latvia are Nordic, by making this thread. I am just providing people who are interested with facts/information.

[Äike]

I'll just mention one thing.

Those "Curonian vikings" were actually Livonians, the native inhabitants, who were all living on coast. A lot of maritime terms have come to the Baltic languages also from Finnic. They were Curonians only in the sense that they were from Curonia.

It is said that the Estonians of Saaremaa and the Livonians living 30km south of them were more similar to each other than the Estonians of Saaremaa were to other Estonians. The Estonians and Livonians also made joint raids against the Baltic tribes.

Estonians from Saaremaa and Balts working together is an oxymoron. There's also the obvious language barrier.

If you just look at the archeological data from 1000 years ago, there's an obvious trend, Livonians were assimilated inland, but they continued to have a foothold in the coast until the 20th century.

The Baltic Curonians were inland people.

This Latvian claim on Finnic history is rather obscure, unless Latvians consider the Livonians to be the same people as the Baltic Curonians.

[Waidewut]

I'll just mention one thing.

Those "Curonian vikings" were actually Livonians, the native inhabitants, who were all living on coast. A lot of maritime terms have come to the Baltic languages also from Finnic. They were Curonians only in the sense that they were from Curonia.

It is said that the Estonians of Saaremaa and the Livonians living 30km south of them were more similar to each other than the Estonians of Saaremaa were to other Estonians. The Estonians and Livonians also made joint raids against the Baltic tribes.

Estonians from Saaremaa and Balts working together is an oxymoron. There's also the obvious language barrier.

If you just look at the archeological data from 1000 years ago, there's an obvious trend, Livonians were assimilated inland, but they continued to have a foothold in the coast until the 20th century.

The Baltic Curonians were inland people.

This Latvian claim on Finnic history is rather obscure, unless Latvians consider the Livonians to be the same people as the Baltic Curonians.

Here is an oxymoron:
Scandinavians named the peninsula of Courland after the recent immigrants-Baltic Couronians, and not the native Finnic Livonians with whom they were supposed to have had really large interaction.

[Äike]

Here is an oxymoron:
Scandinavians name the peninsula of Courland after the recent immigrants-Baltic Couronians, and not the native Finnic Livonians with whom they were supposed to have had really large interaction.

If you look at a map of Livonian settlement, then you can see that the Livonians separated the Estonians of Saaremaa from the Balts.

Are you saying that the people of Saaremaa completely ignored the closest people to them, sailed past them and started working together with the enemies of the people who were closest to them?

Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

As I said, look at old archeological data, although if you can think logically and know history, then that isn't even necessary.

[Waidewut]

If you look at a map of Livonian settlement, then you can see that the Livonians separated the Estonians of Saaremaa from the Balts.

Are you saying that the people of Saaremaa completely ignored the closest people to them, sailed past them and started working together with the enemies of the people who were closest to them?

Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

As I said, look at old archeological data, although if you can think logically and know history, then that isn't even necessary.

It would make more sense, if you just stated the Curonian-Oeselian cooperation didn't exist, not denying the whole commonly accepted historical theory about the Baltic vikings.
Even if there were no Baltic Curonians raiding Sigtuna, it does not cancel out the activities in Gotland and Denmark.

[Äike]

Even if there were no Baltic Curonians raiding Sigtuna, it does not cancel out the activities in Gotland and Denmark.

As I said, Livonians were living on the coast, the Curonians were inland. What did they do? Build their ships 40km inland, fight their way to the coast while carrying the ship, setting sail to Gotland and then fighting back to their homeland through 40km of Livonians?

People who don't inhabit on the coast, can't be seafarers.

[The Lawspeaker]

People who don't inhabit on the coast, can't be seafarers.
One word: Dorestad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorestad).

[Waidewut]

As I said, Livonians were living on the coast, the Curonians were inland. What did they do? Build their ships 40km inland, fight their way to the coast while carrying the ship, setting sail to Gotland and then fighting back to their homeland through 40km of Livonians?

People who don't inhabit on the coast, can't be seafarers.

Tribes of the Baltic region 5th to 10th century.
Kurši= Coronians aka Baltic vikings

http://visc.gov.lv/saturs/vispizgl/metmat/vesture_6_9/images/kar111.jpg

[The Ripper]

I'll just mention one thing.

Those "Curonian vikings" were actually Livonians, the native inhabitants, who were all living on coast. A lot of maritime terms have come to the Baltic languages also from Finnic. They were Curonians only in the sense that they were from Curonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonians

[Äike]

Tribes of the Baltic region 5th to 10th century.
Kurši= Coronians aka Baltic vikings

http://visc.gov.lv/saturs/vispizgl/metmat/vesture_6_9/images/kar111.jpg

Your map is faulty. The Livonians inhabited the coast also in the Zemgali area and the Zemgalians were also inland people.

Back then, you could walk, following the coastline, from the western shore of the Curonian peninsula to Southern-Estonia, while only seeing Livonians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonians

I have read that Wikipedia article, but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Most historical sources say that the "Curonians" and Estonians worked together. But Estonians and the Livonians made joint attack against the real Baltic Curonians and the "Curonian vikings" doing all the raids together with the Estonians were Livonians inhabiting the Curonian peninsula.

There is a reason, why maritime terms in Latvian come from Livonian.

[Waidewut]

Your map is faulty. The Livonians inhabited the coast also in the Zemgali area and the Zemgalians were also inland people.

Back then, you could walk, following the coastline, from the western shore of the Curonian peninsula to Southern-Estonia, while only seeing Livonians.
Yes, but this is irrelevant to the distribution of the Curonians, who have lived by the sea from the 5th century.




I have read that Wikipedia article, but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Most historical sources say that the "Curonians" and Estonians worked together. But Estonians and the Livonians made joint attack against the real Baltic Curonians and the "Curonian vikings" doing all the raids together with the Estonians were Livonians inhabiting the Curonian peninsula.

There is a reason, why maritime terms in Latvian come from Livonian.
Latvian is based on the ancient East-Baltic Latgal language, and they indeed were inland people, who took the maritime terms from the Livonians.
West Baltic Curonians probably had their own terms related to the sea, before they were assimilated by the Latgal language based Latvians.

[The Ripper]

I have read that Wikipedia article, but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Most historical sources say that the "Curonians" and Estonians worked together. But Estonians and the Livonians made joint attack against the real Baltic Curonians and the "Curonian vikings" doing all the raids together with the Estonians were Livonians inhabiting the Curonian peninsula.

There is a reason, why maritime terms in Latvian come from Livonian.

Do you have any proof that the Curonians mentioned in for example Danish chronicles weren't Baltic? The general consensus is that they were.

[Laudanum]

One word: Dorestad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorestad).

Guess who lives there.:D

[The Lawspeaker]

Guess who lives there.:D
Aye ! :D That's you, mate !

[Laudanum]

Aye ! :D That's you, mate !

:thumb001:

[Äike]

Do you have any proof that the Curonians mentioned in for example Danish chronicles weren't Baltic?

It is often mentioned that the Curonians and the Estonians worked together if making bigger raids.

Around the time when most of these raids occurred, Livonians were the dominant seafaring people in modern-day Latvia. They lived on the coastline running from western Curonia, through Riga, to the Estonian coast. All the bigger trade centers in modern-day Latvia were also purely Livonian, as the Livonians inhabited the coast and the trade centers were at the coast.

The Estonian vikings of Saaremaa often made business like this: They went to Livonia, bought goods that had been brought from the east or the south and then sailed to Scandinavia to sell it. Or the other way around, they raided Sweden or Denmark and sold the goods either in Gotland(Gotland had "non-aggression pact" with the Estonians back then, that meant that they benefited from the increased trade and they didn't have to afraid of Estonian raids) or Livonia.

Livonians had been seafaring people for ages and were very similar to the Estonians of Saaremaa, they worked together quite often.

Now let's imagine that the Baltic Curonians indeed had access to the sea. Why should the Estonians of Saaremaa, who were great friends with the Livonians(even better friends that with other Estonians), sail past long stretches of Livonian coastline, to work together with foreign people who were enemies to the Livonians. Geographically and historically it doesn't make sense for obvious reasons.

Archeology also proves that almost all of modern-day Latvia's coastline was inhabited by the Livonians back then. Gradually, the Livonians were assimilated and pushed into the tip of Courland.


The general consensus is that they were.


That's just what Latvians wrote in Wikipedia.

[The Ripper]

It is often mentioned that the Curonians and the Estonians worked together if making bigger raids.

Around the time when most of these raids occurred, Livonians were the dominant seafaring people in modern-day Latvia. They lived on the coastline running from western Curonia, through Riga, to the Estonian coast. All the bigger trade centers in modern-day Latvia were also purely Livonian, as the Livonians inhabited the coast and the trade centers were at the coast.

The Estonian vikings of Saaremaa often made business like this: They went to Livonia, bought goods that had been brought from the east or the south and then sailed to Scandinavia to sell it. Or the other way around, they raided Sweden or Denmark and sold the goods either in Gotland(Gotland had "non-aggression pact" with the Estonians back then, that meant that they benefited from the increased trade and they didn't have to afraid of Estonian raids) or Livonia.

Livonians had been seafaring people for ages and were very similar to the Estonians of Saaremaa, they worked together quite often.

Now let's imagine that the Baltic Curonians indeed had access to the sea. Why should the Estonians of Saaremaa, who were great friends with the Livonians(even better friends that with other Estonians), sail past long stretches of Livonian coastline, to work together with foreign people who were enemies to the Livonians. Geographically and historically it doesn't make sense for obvious reasons.

Archeology also proves that almost all of modern-day Latvia's coastline was inhabited by the Livonians back then. Gradually, the Livonians were assimilated and pushed into the tip of Courland.



That's just what Latvians wrote in Wikipedia.

That's just what you wrote on a forum. How about some sources, serious academic publications by serious academics.

[Äike]

That's just what you wrote on a forum. How about some sources, serious academic publications by serious academics.

Have fun:

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B. Kangro, Estland i Sverige. Lund 1968,
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2) *1900 i Lümanda på Ösel – † 1987 i Stockholm.
3) A. Mälk, Läänemere isandad. Romaan eestlaste
viikingiajast. Tartu 1936. Ill. E. Järv.
4) Toronto 1951; av författaren omarbetad version.
Samme illustratör; översatt av E. Kõiva,
Lords of the Western Sea. Conn. Andover:
Parousia Press 1984; nyutgiven i Estland
på förlaget Eesti Raamat 2000, med
samma illustrationer samt med förord av författarens
dotter, språkvetaren Halliki Mälk.
5) Ledande roller spelades av Ivar Paljak, Jaan
Teär, Vello Laas och Ilmar Loorand.
6) ”Lehhola” är ren fiktion. Den välkända fornborgen
Lihula ligger på fastlandet, jfr
K. Aluve, Eesti keskaegsed linnused. Tallinn,
1993.
7) Denna amfibieoperation, där fartyg under
stor möda släpas över land för att omfatta
och överraska fienden, liknar en episod från
Konstantiopels belägring 1453. Där släpade
de anfallande turkarna sina fartyg upp över
den branta Perahalvön och ner in i det av bysantinarna
spärrade Gyllene Hornet. S. Runciman,
The Fall of Constantinople 1453.
Cambridge University Press 1964, Chapter
VII; enligt brevuppgift av Halliki Mälk
(Mjölby 14 juni 2007) har A. Mälk (jämte
hustru) rekognoscerat på plats. Enligt samma
källa upprätthöll han också kontakter
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53) HCL VII:1.
54) HCL VIII:3.
55) HCL IX:13.
56) Tyskarna hade t.o.m. tagit med sig Kaupo
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57) HCL XV:3.
58) HCL XII:8.
59) HCL XXX:2–6.
60) E. Tarvel, Tallinn, muntligen. I: K. Kello,
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61) HCL XXX:1.
62) Jfr Nils Blomkvists stora internationella
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jfr not 43.
63) N. Ahnlund, Stockholm (1953), s. 32 ff, 94.
64) H. Kruus in: Eesti ajalugu I. Tartu 1935, s.
263.
65) Varvid Mälk uppenbarligen stöder sig på
Kruus m.fl. breda kunskaper och närmast
auktoritativa praktutgåva.
66) N. Ahnlund, a.a.o.
67) M. Mägi, a.a., s. 34.
68) D. Harrison, Jarlens sekel. En berättelse om
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69) Th. Lindkvist, Christianisation and State-
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und Kontinentaleuropa 1100–1600.
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70) S. Tesch & J. Vincent, Vyer från medeltidens
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71) M. Klinge, Östersjövälden. 1984.
72) E. Lönnroth, De äkta folkungarnas program
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[The Ripper]

LOL, your sources include national romantic historical fiction.

But I'll take a look.

[Äike]

LOL, your sources include national romantic historical fiction.

But I'll take a look.

Actually August Mälk worked together with historians and constantly searched for information, to make his book historically accurate.

[The Ripper]

Actually August Mälk worked together with historians and constantly searched for information, to make his book historically accurate.

Here's an idea: start a thread about the Finnic identity of Curonians in you-know-where. Let's have a little but real debate with actual sources. :)