Spain....The Motherland of Celts.

[Germanicus]

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.

A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles.

"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.

"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided nation."

Origins of Britons

Oisin

Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.

Wodan

Second most common clan arrived from Denmark during Viking invasions in the 9th century.

Sigurd

Descended from Viking invaders who settled in the British Isles from AD 793. One of the most common clans in the Shetland Isles, and areas of north and west Scotland.

Eshu

The wave of Oisin immigration was joined by the Eshu clan, which has roots in Africa. Eshu descendants are primarily found in coastal areas.

Re

A second wave of arrivals which came from the Middle East. The Re were farmers who spread westwards across Europe.

Roman

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were forbidden from marrying locally.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/celts-descended-from-spanish-fishermen-study-finds-416727.html

[Lábaru]

Hehe well, Celts no, but certainly proto Celts.

[Anthropologique]

This is old stuff. The most up to date research on Celticity in Atlantic Europe (British Isles, France, Iberia, etc.) can be found in Cunliffe and Koch, Celtic from the West (2010) and Tartessian 2 (2011) by Koch. No question, there was high Celtic density in the extreme west of Europe.

[mimzy]

So that's why I like tacos and burriots so much!

[Anthropologique]

So that's why I like tacos and burriots so much!

Mexico and Mexicans obviously have nothing to do with this thread.

[Sikeliot]

So that's why I like tacos and burriots so much!


Uhhhhh.....
:confused::lol00002:

[Óttar]

Hehe well, Celts no, but certainly proto Celts.
I have a DVD called Atlantean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantean_%28documentary_series%29) by Bob Quinn, talking about historical trade routes between Ireland, Spain, and North Africa. He challenges the whole concept of 'Celtic'. I strongly urge members of this forum (especially Os :p) to at least check it out. I want some criticism and commentary.

[mimzy]

Mexico and Mexicans obviously have nothing to do with this thread.

Lol i was just kidding

[gold_fenix]

well too the oldest rest of celtic (or proto celtic rather) are in Galicia, with a age of 4500 years bc, too the oldest celtics texts could be in Ireland or North of Spain

[gandalf]

"Origins of Britons

Oisin

Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.

Wodan

Second most common clan arrived from Denmark during Viking invasions in the 9th century.

Sigurd

Descended from Viking invaders who settled in the British Isles from AD 793. One of the most common clans in the Shetland Isles, and areas of north and west Scotland.

Eshu

The wave of Oisin immigration was joined by the Eshu clan, which has roots in Africa. Eshu descendants are primarily found in coastal areas.

Re

A second wave of arrivals which came from the Middle East. The Re were farmers who spread westwards across Europe.

Roman

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were forbidden from marrying locally."

No mention about Angles and Saxons ... ?

[Treffie]

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.

No it won't :D

[Catrau]

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.

[/url]

Nice tread.
You anglo-saxons tend to confuse Spain with Iberia. Romans did called Hispania to the Iberian Peninsula but nobody uses that anymore except by some people who speak English. There are two countries in Iberia so you shouldn't refer to both using the name of one of them... understand what I mean?:D

Also that place where Brits go usually on vacations if it is in Spain it isn't land of Celts but of other Iberian peoples if you mean Portugal.. yes even the Algarve was a land of Celtic or Celticised tribes (Conii and Celticos).

[foreverblue]

i thought it was eastern europe/russia

[Lábaru]

Nice tread.
You anglo-saxons tend to confuse Spain with Iberia. Romans did called Hispania to the Iberian Peninsula but nobody uses that anymore except by some people who speak English. There are two countries in Iberia so you shouldn't refer to both using the name of one of them... understand what I mean?:D

Also that place where Brits go usually on vacations if it is in Spain it isn't land of Celts but of other Iberian peoples if you mean Portugal.. yes even the Algarve was a land of Celtic or Celticised tribes (Conii and Celticos).

the fact is that the study is based on the comparison of populations from the North of Spain with the British Islanders, there is no confusion.

[Catrau]

the fact is that the study is based on the comparison of populations from the North of Spain with the British Islanders, there is no confusion.

Maybe, we can't be sure about that, it is written "coastal Spain".. whatever he means by that, but I use it as example. The fact that I've mentioned is really a fact and people should give attention to it. Certainly you wouldn't like the reverse to happen, also, what I’ve stated is totally true, every line, every word.

[Lábaru]

Maybe, we can't be sure about that, it is written "coastal Spain".. whatever he means by that, but I use it as example, the fact that I've mentioned is really a fact and people should give attention to it. Certainly you wouldn't like the reverse to happen, also, what I’ve stated is totally true, every line, every word.

I read the original study, the Northern Spanish populations were compared with the population of the British Isles, people from Asturias, Cantabria and Basque, that's why no mention of Portugal.

[Catrau]

I read the original study, the Northern Spanish populations were compared with the population of the British Isles, people from Asturias, Cantabria and Basque, that's why no mention of Portugal.

Ok Lábaru :thumbs up, I believe you. I think I've read it too a long time ago. I understand what you mean. My stand was about that confusion they do about Iberia, the study may have been done in northern Spain but if it was done also in Portugal it wouldn't be much different. For me, as far as I understand, they also speak generally and it is about that reducing generalization that I stand.

Saludos:yo:

[Ouistreham]

I have a DVD called Atlantean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantean_%28documentary_series%29) by Bob Quinn, talking about historical trade routes between Ireland, Spain, and North Africa. He challenges the whole concept of 'Celtic'. I strongly urge members of this forum (especially Os :p) to at least check it out. I want some criticism and commentary.

Sounds interesting indeed:


Atlantean was a trilogy of documentary films made by Irish film maker Bob Quinn in 1983. These films dismissed as myth the popular belief in "Celtic" origins of the inhabitants of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Asturias, Brittany and Galicia. Focusing on the role of sailing in Connemara society, where his films were made, Quinn investigated the history of the Atlantic sea lanes from the Baltic Sea and the British Isles as far south as the Mediterranean and North Africa. Quinn suggested that Ireland's first inhabitants came by boat sometime after the end of the last ice age - probably from the warmer, more populous south. As navigation gave rise to coastal settlement over long periods of time, overseas trade and cultural exchanges continued until at least the Vikings. The Irish language, music and art was therefore related to ancient Iberian, Mediterranean and North African culture, in particular the indigenous Berbers of North Africa.

According to Quinn, the idea of "Celtic" origins was probably invented by Christian intellectuals in the Middle Ages eager to affirm a "racial" pan-European identity amongst the unusual inhabitants of the western seaboards.

Bob Quinn developed these ideas into a book: The Atlantean Irish.

The Celtic theory has long been questioned by academics. In recent years, the discovery of mitochondrial DNA has been used as a method to map the historical migration of mankind's genetic groups. Such genetic tests, conducted in Ireland in 2004, confirmed that the theory of Celtic origins in Ireland is genetically unfounded. In earlier tests, Bryan Sykes, genetic scientist and author of bestseller The Seven Daughters of Eve, while analysing European DNA groups identified what he called the "Clan of Tara" – a genetic group that included the coastal peoples of the British Isles, the Atlantic seaboards of continental Europe and the coasts of the Mediterranean. Sykes did not conduct genetic tests in North Africa amongst Berbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantean_%28documentary_series%29

... except that "the idea of "Celtic" origins was probably invented by Christian intellectuals in the Middle Ages eager to affirm a "racial" pan-European identity" is very debatable. The concept that linguistic kinship and national identity could be related did not really emerge prior to the 18th century.

My personal view is that there is a widespread misunderstanding about the Celtic cultures of North-West Europe. The fact that Celtic languages are still spoken in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany (as well as until recently in some parts of Western England) doesn't entail that strong an ethnical proximity.

IMveryHO those people are not the hard core of any supposed ancient Celtic culture area. They are the last ones to speak Celtic because they were the last ones to be Celtized.

[Vasconcelos]

Reason those lands kept the Celtic language was because the cultures were never fully replaced by foreign ones like it happened in continental Europe - Roman and Germanic.


I, personally, think that all Celtic cultures had slight differences from each other, but fitted into one large cultural group. There is no "pure celtic", just different variations of a common culture depending on where in West Europe you are.

This is easily noticable in West Iberia, where the Gallaeci and Lusitanian apparently had some cultural overlapping but still spoke different languages, had different architecture (Gallaeci build round buildings - the castros - whereas Lusitanians favoured rectangular ones) and so on. Then there's also the Celtici in Alentejo, which apparently were akin to the Gallaecians and the Turdetani on the Northwestern coast, but not so much to their northern Lusitani neighbours. These where, apparently, more similar to Celtic tribes outside the Iberian peninsula. Basically there's a lot of small differences between celtic tribes in a very small location, there's no reason to belive these slight differences didn't also exist between different Western European regions.

[Germanicus]

Castro de Baroña
Just south of the fishing village of "Porto do Son" there are the 2000-year old ruins of a Celtic fort at "Castro de Baroña". These ruins were only rediscovered in 1933 and are protected as a Spanish "Artistic Heritage" site. Local legend states that any person who sees the image or shape of a lion's head in the Castro de Baroña rock formations will be chosen to join the rebirth of the Celtic Clan of Baroña



http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/castrodebarona2.jpg

http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/portodeson.png

[Osweo]

Local legend states that any person who sees the image or shape of a lion's head in the Castro de Baroña rock formations will be chosen to join the rebirth of the Celtic Clan of Baroña
Shit! I saw it!
Now, where do I sign up for my chunk of hacienda and share in the ganaderia? :sherlock:

[Damião de Góis]

Castro de Baroña
Just south of the fishing village of "Porto do Son" there are the 2000-year old ruins of a Celtic fort at "Castro de Baroña". These ruins were only rediscovered in 1933 and are protected as a Spanish "Artistic Heritage" site. Local legend states that any person who sees the image or shape of a lion's head in the Castro de Baroña rock formations will be chosen to join the rebirth of the Celtic Clan of Baroña



http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/castrodebarona2.jpg

http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n449/ruffusruffcut/portodeson.png

Those types of ruins are more commonly found in this area:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_G7Wra71mbBk/S9HhQu245sI/AAAAAAAAAJw/0Qu81-TBbiQ/s1600/culturacastrexa%5B1%5D.jpg

[Lábaru]

Those types of ruins are more commonly found in this area:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_G7Wra71mbBk/S9HhQu245sI/AAAAAAAAAJw/0Qu81-TBbiQ/s1600/culturacastrexa%5B1%5D.jpg

Not really, All the 100% old typics Cantabrian villages looks like this:

http://cabeceras.eldiariomontanes.es/imagenes-municipios/galerias/2141/img44871200x800-872.jpg

http://imagenes.forociudad.com/fotos/19463-argueso-poblado-cantabro.jpg

http://cabeceras.eldiariomontanes.es/imagenes-municipios/galerias/199/grabando-en-el-poblado-cantabro-de-argueso-8800x533.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3074/2700165457_170032b84b_z.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FHiJP-pvFAE/TYNRP2GSl1I/AAAAAAAAAek/PZQhg8h1d-I/muro+y+mas011a.jpg

http://pobladocantabrodeargueso.blogspot.com/2010/11/castro-fontibre-argueso-hermandad-de.html

;) so sure that is common in Cantabria.

[Damião de Góis]

Maybe the map is not the best, but it was the only one i could find. They are more commonly found in the northwest surely anyway, including Cantabria.

[Lábaru]

Maybe the map is not the best, but it was the only one i could find. They are more commonly found in the northwest surely anyway, including Cantabria.

the misunderstanding is the population density, Cantabria is obviously a small territory full of mountains, less suitable for human settlement that Galicia or Portugal, but certainly what we know as "Celtic castro" in Iberia is the same that the traditional Cantabrian village or "poblado cántabro".

[Siegfried]

That means I'm related to Rafael Nadal. Heck, tennis must run in the blood since I'm Djokovic's long lost brother as well (Pontid brotherhood).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Rafael_Nadal_2011_Roland_Garros_2011.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

That means I'm related to Rafael Nadal. Heck, tennis must run in the blood since I'm Djokovic's long lost brother as well (Pontid brotherhood).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Rafael_Nadal_2011_Roland_Garros_2011.jpg

Fail. Rafael Nadal is from the Iberian side of the Peninsula, not from Hispanoceltia.

[Raikaswinþs]

Fail. Rafael Nadal is from the Iberian side of the Peninsula, not from Hispanoceltia.

he's a Balear Islander. Not a Peninsular Iberian. For all we know he could descend from the Honderos Baleares (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hondero_balear)

En la narración de Licofrón de Calcis (280 a. C.) en su poema Alexandra (versos 633-641) hablando de los fugitivos de la guerra de Troya que llegan a Gimnesias (antiguo nombre dado por los griegos al archipiélago balear y por el autor del poema de origen griego) se da esta descripción:


Después de navegar como cangrejos en las rocas de Gimnesis rodeados de mar, arrastraron su existencia cubiertos de pieles peludas, sin vestidos, descalzos, armados de tres hondas de doble cordada. Y las madres señalaron a su hijos más pequeños, en ayuno, el arte de tirar; ya que ninguno de ellos probará el pan con la boca si antes, con piedra precisa, no acierta un pedazo puesto sobre un palo como blanco.






you should play more Total War and Age of Empires man

[Lábaru]

That means I'm related to Rafael Nadal. Heck, tennis must run in the blood since I'm Djokovic's long lost brother as well (Pontid brotherhood).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Rafael_Nadal_2011_Roland_Garros_2011.jpg

For be honest, as a Cantabrian, is more familiar to me one Rafael Nadal fighting close with my ancestors against the Romans (or defending the Numantia walls of my neighbors) that a strange face like Novak Djokovic

http://www.que.es/archivos/201006/nadal-mordisco-n-365xXx80.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ooy04oqVJnw/TUbFoI7Ld5I/AAAAAAAACUc/uhJOTNwTd78/s1600/rafael-nadal-armani-fotos-video-tenis.jpg

http://tennis-wallpapers.com/players/Novak_Djokovic/wall/Novak_Djokovic_11.jpg

http://im.in.com/connect/images/profile/b_profile4/Novak_Djokovic_300.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

he's a Balear Islander. Not a Peninsular Iberian. For all we know he could descend from the Honderos Baleares (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hondero_balear)


For all we know, he could be descended from Phoenicians or Xuetes.


you should play more Total War and Age of Empires man

I already played enough AoE back in the days. :p

[Raikaswinþs]

For all we know, he could be descended from Phoenicians or Xuetes.



I already played enough AoE back in the days. :p

have you tried Age of Chivalry?

I was an avid AoE and Total War gammer from 1998 to 2005. Then I kind of stopped gaming altogether for like 7 years (was busy doing all the "veinteañero" routines)

Last year I timidly took on a few indie games and found a few interesting pieces. I also explored a bit current gen gaming but was utterly disappointed and I didn't jumped on that wagon. (last gaming platform I bought is still that 2002 chunky PS2 that is currently collecting dust in some Peninsular pueblo)

HOWEVER an old friend of mine had the kindness about a couple months ago to show me this little gem and cared to explain me how Hamachi works (my computer skills are also a bit "2002")

http://aok.heavengames.com/age-of-chivalry

Now I am a fan and after so many years, finally I have a new game in my life.

Shame no Aragon, no Castille in it. Centered in central Europe and the British Isles. BUT STILL... I can't but recommend it

[Comte Arnau]

Thanks for the link. It's been a while since I don't play this sort of games -well, I'm lying, I played Civilization V a few times last year :D - but I can give it a try.

[Vasconcelos]

You can aslo try Paradox games, it's a different kind, though, but still interesting.

[Catrau]

I've got some nice photos to share that I took in Citânia de Briteiros a Castro in the outskirts of the beautiful city of Guimarães :-)

1 - Last Stand Wall and in the background you can see the second and first lines of defense walls.
19659

2 - Last Stand Wall and entrance gate in the acropolis.
19660

3 - Runaway Celt :thumbs up
19661

4 - Round houses and outside stoned cover
19662

5 - Typical Callaeci round houses
19663

6 - The big council house. Note the wall embed stone seat. Eventually reunions could take place outside under a big tree.
19664

7 - Hole in the rock used to pulverize cereals
19665

8 - Bathhouse
19666

9 - Triskel symbol of the bathhouse. It was a typical Celtic sign that symbolizes evolution and involution as the perpetual non stopping movement of life.
19667

[Damião de Góis]

Yeah Guimarães is in the NW as i was saying.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/LocalGuimaraes.svg/250px-LocalGuimaraes.svg.png


Those types of ruins are more commonly found in this area:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_G7Wra71mbBk/S9HhQu245sI/AAAAAAAAAJw/0Qu81-TBbiQ/s1600/culturacastrexa%5B1%5D.jpg

[Catrau]

Another set of photos, this one I took in the Citânia de Sanfins on the outskirts of the city of Paços de Ferreira.

1 - Rectangular house
19669

2 - Round houses
19670

3 - Round house
19671

4 - Famous Celtic warrior with typical western Iberian 2 feet round shield (This one was taken in a commercial centre, couldn't find the real one in the Castro)
19672

[Alvarado]

^^
I saw these ones at the archaeology museum of Lisboa.

http://haraldwartooth.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Arte-luso-1024x888.jpg

[Vasconcelos]

Eheh, I saw that one aswell. :)

Last time I went there they had one of those Galaico-Lusitani warrior statues outside the museum for showoff :P

[Catrau]

Here's more, now about more southern Lusitani.

1 - Viruatus and the Lusitani monument in Viseu.
19678

2 - Famous Viriatus monument in Viseu. Note the typical small round shield and falcata.
19679

3 - Viriatus Monument shield
19680

4 - Lusitani warrior recorded in stone in the Coa Valley, photo taken from a poster in the Coa Velley Museum.

http://www.arte-coa.pt/index.php?Language=en
19681

"Os Lusitanos... Usam um pequeno escudo de dois pés de diâmetro, concavo para diante, suspenso com talabartes de couro: com efeito, não possuem nem braçadeira, nem asa. Além disso ainda usam punhal ou gládio (na realidade uma falcata). A maior parte usa couraças de linho; poucos, cotas de malha e um capacete de tríplice cimeira, ao passo que os demais têm elmos de nervos. Os peões usam também polainas de couro, e cada um traz diversos dardos; alguns lanças com ponta de cobre."
Estrabão (58 a.C. - 25d.C.), in Geografia, Livro III - Lusitânia.

[Catrau]

^^
I saw these ones at the archaeology museum of Lisboa.

http://haraldwartooth.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Arte-luso-1024x888.jpg

In front of the warriors must be Varracos Vaceos or what?

[Alvarado]

In front of the warriors must be Varracos Vaceos or what?

It seems that "Verracos" were relatively common in the north of Portugal too.

http://www.celtiberia.net/imagftp/im439861550-Dibujo.jpg

[Catrau]

It seems that "Verracos" were relatively common in the north of Portugal too.



For me they are Salmantinos :)
I didn't knew they were that common in the right side of the Douro.
Gracias.:thumb001:

[Alvarado]

For me they are Salmantinos :)
I didn't knew they were that common in the right side of the Douro.
Gracias.:thumb001:

Here is the article with the map and other interesting stuff.

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_11/gamito_6_11.html

[Osweo]

I'm so jealous of your ancient sculptural traditions, Iberian AND Celtic. :pout:

Seems unlikely that our British Celts' sculptures just haven't been found yet, so we have to assume that such an artform wasn't so prevalent here at all.

(Rather argues against the notion of Celticity coming FROM Iberia to Britain)

We do have the Stone Heads, however:
Yorkshire:
http://www.wakefield.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8C6E6CBF-10A1-465F-841E-A5404C464D2B/0/AR000173.jpg
Ulster:http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47690000/jpg/_47690451_001.jpg
Leicestershire:
http://www.harby.co.uk/headfront.JPG
Dublin:
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/a558/a312/gallery/ireland/Dublin/uw_PA010874.jpg
Cheshire:
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/a558/a312/gallery/England/cheshire/Rostherne2.jpg

and my Lancashire:
http://lancsarchaeology.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/hhfhdsep.jpg?w=600



^^
I saw these ones at the archaeology museum of Lisboa.

http://haraldwartooth.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Arte-luso-1024x888.jpg
That one on the right always makes me chuckle; a portrait of Otto von Bismarck, almost!

[Alvarado]

That one on the right always makes me chuckle; a portrait of Otto von Bismarck, almost!

LOL

http://patrimonio.cm-boticas.pt/pat/70/025.jpg http://images.inmagine.com/400nwm/iris/imagebrokerrm-170/ptg01237487.jpg

[Raikaswinþs]

verraco en sevilla es alguien expcepcionalmente fuerte y fiero. "se ha puesto como un verraco", dic. del que has gone berserk. Vaya verraco de jipi! - what a beastling!

[SilverKnight]

Where do redheads come from in Spain ? are they just of Celtic stock ?:confused:

I've seeing some Dominicans of close Iberian/Spanish ancestry with small amounts of red hair...

[Anthropologique]

Where do redheads come from in Spain ? are they just of Celtic stock ?:confused:

I've seeing some Dominicans of close Iberian/Spanish ancestry with small amounts of red hair...

Red hair isn't Celtic. "Celtic" is predominantly a cultural category.

There are likely more red haired (ginger, auburn, mahogany) people along the Atlantic Facade, which of course includes Iberia. If you combine all shades of red hair, Iberia (Spain and Portugal) I think average ~ 7 % (~ 2-3% ginger). By comparison, Scotland has ~ 14%, Ireland 12-13% and Brittany (north-west France) ~ 10-11%, I would say.

[SilverKnight]

Red hair isn't Celtic. "Celtic" is predominantly a cultural category.

There are likely more red haired (ginger, auburn, mahogany) people along the Atlantic Facade, which of course includes Iberia. If you combine all shades of red hair, Iberia (Spain and Portugal) I think average ~ 7 % (~ 2-3% ginger). By comparison, Scotland has ~ 14%, Ireland 12-13% and Brittany (north-west France) ~ 10-11%, I would say.

I can see, but interestingly this regions, N. Portugal, Atlantic Spain, Brittany Wales, Scotland, Ireland are still of Celtic stock, it seems like it isn't Celtics who where the ones with red hair but the climate/ environment who made many of them this way.

[Lábaru]

verraco en sevilla es alguien expcepcionalmente fuerte y fiero. "se ha puesto como un verraco", dic. del que has gone berserk. Vaya verraco de jipi! - what a beastling!

No sólo en Sevilla "estás hecho un verraco" significa en otras partes que estás hecho un bestia, un toro, muy fuerte.

[Vasconcelos]

I can see, but interestingly this regions, N. Portugal (...) are still of Celtic stock
There isn't any significant difference between Portuguese from the north and south (and neighbouring regions of Spain, the most related being obviously Galicia).
It's fallacious to assume they (we in my case) are of Celtic stock and others are not, we all fall under the same group, regardless of being labeled as "Celtic" or not. :)

[antonio]

Where do redheads come from in Spain ? are they just of Celtic stock ?:confused:

I've seeing some Dominicans of close Iberian/Spanish ancestry with small amounts of red hair...

For me is upsetting how updates myths counts more than historical evidences and socioeconomic models -i suppose i not the only one that thinks that Germanic invader contingents (even if they were neither many nor massive) multiplied more than the natives they logicaly displaced: maybe all but Hispanoroman elites- and were the main stock for later Medieval nobility of Christian fighters against Muslims.

So Id bet Nordicism in Iberian Peninsula is more (dont know exact percentages) a Germanic matter than a Celtic one.:coffee:

[Bardamu]

No mention of Anglo Saxons. Strange.

[Catrau]

Fo

So Id bet Nordicism in Iberian Peninsula is more (dont know exact percentages) a Germanic matter than a Celtic one.:coffee:

Antonio, I have the idea that the only real massive migration might have been the "celtic" one I say this because of our massive "R1b" Y haplogroup percentage often correlated with celtic migrations. Although the second more importante one is "I" that some correlate with Germanic/Barbarian invasions. Correct me if it's not the case. In the south this "I" is still superior to "E3b" of northern african origin almost by the double.

It's a 2005 publication but I still use it to get general pictures of distributions

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

[antonio]

Antonio, I have the idea that the only real massive migration might have been the "celtic" one I say this because of our massive "R1b" Y haplogroup percentage often correlated with celtic migrations.

Assuming R1b as the native haplogroup of Peninsula then the Celtic migrations scales down in relation of Germanic ones to fit my hypothesis about having less (not much less) impact on Iberic races, in concordance with historical data: how is possible f.e. wealthy Galaicoroman elites (and even assuming Roman army disolutio, still counting the potential mercenary forces of less civilized/christianized Galaecian tribes) being needed to achieve a pact with Suebian exiguous contingents which BTW spreaded their toponims thru all the land? And same with Toletum and Visigoths. :coffee:



Some of these R1b could have been brought after Iron Age: on Germanic migrations, on Medieval Age...

[Anthropologique]

Antonio, I have the idea that the only real massive migration might have been the "celtic" one I say this because of our massive "R1b" Y haplogroup percentage often correlated with celtic migrations. Although the second more importante one is "I" that some correlate with Germanic/Barbarian invasions. Correct me if it's not the case. In the south this "I" is still superior to "E3b" of northern african origin almost by the double.

It's a 2005 publication but I still use it to get general pictures of distributions

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Check Beleza et al. (2006), the best Y-DNA Haplogroup study on Portugal to date. There are some significant I numbers in Braga, Tras-os-Montes, Leiria, Evora and other areas. The latest autosomal studies like Eurogenes also show Portugal and Spain with ~ 16% Germanic input, highest for Southern Europe. Northern Italy is at 15%.

[Anthropologique]

Assuming R1b as the native haplogroup of Peninsula then the Celtic migrations scales down in relation of Germanic ones to fit my hypothesis about having less (not much less) impact on Iberic races, in concordance with historical data: how is possible f.e. wealthy Galaicoroman elites (and even assuming Roman army disolutio, still counting the potential mercenary forces of less civilized/christianized Galaecian tribes) being needed to achieve a pact with Suebian exiguous contingents which BTW spreaded their toponims thru all the land? And same with Toletum and Visigoths. :coffee:



Some of these R1b could have been brought after Iron Age: on Germanic migrations, on Medieval Age...

What if the Celtic migrations were a result of cultural, social and commercial circulation - east to west / west to east and south to north / north to south?

[Catrau]

What if the Celtic migrations were a result of cultural, social and commercial circulation - east to west / west to east and south to north / north to south?

Yes, we can assume a lot of things, the truth is that Celts have migrated west until they "run out of land" and that's why their descendants still live today in western/atlantic europe from southern Portugal to southern Sweden. I guess they did all those possible migrations you referred to but the bulk of those peoples set foundations on the areas we all know. Celts in the Peninsula weren't nomads at the most they did transhumance with the cattle. Their structure is quite rigid, their big villages show permanent settlement for many centuries. Many people might have travel all over Europe for commerce but that number, as today, is negligible comparing to the rest of the population.

[Damião de Góis]

There isn't any significant difference between Portuguese from the north and south (and neighbouring regions of Spain, the most related being obviously Galicia).
It's fallacious to assume they (we in my case) are of Celtic stock and others are not, we all fall under the same group, regardless of being labeled as "Celtic" or not. :)

Actually Northern Portugal has something that Southern Portugal doesn't have, but it has nothing to do with celts:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Hispania_418_AD.PNG/600px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Iberia_500.svg

[Catrau]

which BTW spreaded their toponims thru all the land? And same with Toletum and Visigoths. :coffee:



There are places names of Germanic origin but they are just the result of historical ocupation and rule and later named in Portuguese. Almost every place historically relevant in Portugal had a Celtic name, then Romanized, then Germanized, then, in the south, Arabized and finally a Portuguese name.


Alcacer do Sal:
Founded by the Phoenician 3000 years ago, then under Carthaginian rule it was called Bevipo, the after the III Punic War came to Roman hands and was called Salacia after the roman goddess nymph of the salty spay, then under Moorish rule it became Al-Qasr (meaning Castro, because it was a stronghold) finally with the Portuguese the name became Alcácer do Sal (joining roman and Moorish names in a Portuguese way). In this case there are no references to Celtic and Visigoth names, maybe because they haven't changed the previous Bevipo and Salacia.
So, names are a different dimension, they are not rule of thumb to characterize population. Rulers, if they wanted, would change names at will because they had the power. Even today every little dictator tries to change names not only of cities but also of entire countries.

[Vasconcelos]

True, but probably genetically irrelevant, the number of Suevi was likely very small, not to mention that during the Repovoação people from the north moved to the south to repopulate it.

[Damião de Góis]

True, but probably genetically irrelevant, the number of Suevi was likely very small,

We don't know which haplogroups they were to measure that, or how much they were exactly. My point was that if anyone was looking for differences between north and south Portugal, this was it.... not Celts:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Celts_in_Europe2.png/360px-Celts_in_Europe2.png


not to mention that during the Repovoação people from the north moved to the south to repopulate it.

Yes, but there was no population replacement as far as i know, only some people moving south.

[Catrau]

Yes, but there was no population replacement as far as i know, only some people moving south.

And the northern people that occupied the moorish lands made south almost equal to north.

[Zephyr]

True, but probably genetically irrelevant, the number of Suevi was likely very small, not to mention that during the Repovoação people from the north moved to the south to repopulate it.

Suevi were ephemeral, indeed, and left no remarkable legacy, if any.

Their dominion reached Sevilla though, not only the northern half as usually depicted, but it shrinked to nothing in no time and was absorbed by the much better organized visigothic kingdom.

[antonio]

What if the Celtic migrations were a result of cultural, social and commercial circulation - east to west / west to east and south to north / north to south?

But the main stream at Iron Age became the ortodox one from Centre Europe Southwards, Westwards and Eastwards. That's the point iron meltalwork gave them the chance to overcome more rich cultures, more influenced by Near East civilizations. Of unvaluable value are Greek myths on Zeus dominating Mother Godess.


That's the point, at Europe repeatedly happened Centre and North peoples taking control of South lands. Unfortunatelly schema is repeating again by the force of money though we dont want no Germanic apportations no more, we're Germanic and Keltic enough. :D

[Damião de Góis]

Suevi were ephemeral, indeed, and left no remarkable legacy, if any.

Their dominion reached Sevilla though, not only the northern half as usually depicted, but it shrinked to nothing in no time and was absorbed by the much better organized visigothic kingdom.

The Visigoths were Rome's lapdogs. :p They were actually sent here by the Emperor to stop the germanic invasions into Hispania. Apart from that, they are responsible for the moorish invasion.

I respect more the Suevi, and their capital was in Braga so their presence in the north was much more important than elsewhere. Their kingdom also lasted almost as much as the Visigothic one.

[antonio]

Actually Northern Portugal has something that Southern Portugal doesn't have, but it has nothing to do with celts:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Hispania_418_AD.PNG/600px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Iberia_500.svg

Slighty unaccurate maps:

1) Astures made part of Gallaecian tribes.

2) Bascones extended way more East, and even South, in fact Basque language lost about 50% of its terroritory since 500 AD. That's not well documented but documented enough.

[Damião de Góis]

Slighty unaccurate maps:

1) Astures made part of Gallaecian tribes.

Those are not maps of the Gallaecian tribes, look again.


2) Bascones extended way more East, and even South, in fact Basque language lost about 50% of its terroritory since 500 AD. That's not well documented but documented enough.

I don't know about that, but i believe you.

[antonio]

I respect more the Suevi, and their capital was in Braga so their presence in the north was much more important than elsewhere. Their kingdom also lasted almost as much as the Visigothic one.

Indeed Visigoth trace was far more diluted and scattered to almost unrelevance (at least by the less concerned eyes) because of Islamic invasion and later Reconquest whilst Suebian race and costumes made a deeper impact because many of their heavy-settled lands were never taken by Moors.:coffee:

[Damião de Góis]

Indeed Visigoth trace was far more diluted and scattered to almost unrelevance (at least by the less concerned eyes) because of Islamic invasion and later Reconquest whilst Suebian race and costumes made a deeper impact because many of their heavy-settled lands were never taken by Moors.:coffee:

That's true, but on the other hand, and to be honest, those lands were visigothic for some 130 years when the Moors got there (they did briefly).

But yes, i think the Suevi should have won against the Visigoths. I wonder how different would our history be?

[antonio]

That's true, but on the other hand, and to be honest, those lands were visigothic for some 130 years when the Moors got there (they did briefly).

If Im not wrong they were for more than 150 years. Anycase not much, but as rulers it sufficed to make some impact.



But yes, i think the Suevi should have won against the Visigoths. I wonder how different would our history be?

I dont think it would vary a lot: probably they would stablished the court in Toledo and probably they would end up involved in a civil war with the easy resort of searching alliances in Moors with the same well-known result. And it's not a joke.

[Lábaru]

¿Qué hostias hacéis hablando de godos y moros en un tema sobre los celtas?

[Anthropologique]

True, but probably genetically irrelevant, the number of Suevi was likely very small, not to mention that during the Repovoação people from the north moved to the south to repopulate it.

The Suevi population in Iberia has been estimated at between 50,000 and 75,000. The total may include Asding Vandals and Buri who migrated into the north-west of Iberia together with the Suevi.

[Ibericus]

The Celtiberians alone made about 40% of the population of Iberia, according to this study from the Real Academia de la Historia :

http://anthrospain.blogspot.com/2011/10/celtiberia-population-estimate.html

[Catrau]

Check Beleza et al. (2006)

Can you give me the article title, Sandra Beleza has numerous publications since 2000 but the only one I found from 2006 in ScienceDirect is a study about São Tomé population.

[Svartálfar]

"E3b" of northern african origin almost by the double.

Only a handful of E3b haplogroups in Iberia are of North African origin.

[Catrau]

Only a handful of E3b haplogroups in Iberia are of North African origin.

No doubt about that, but in some especial places it can be substantial (say some 12%) although without real impact in the overall average. Some studies, usually ordered by someone or in someone's interest, tend to emphasize very special and genetically “less European” richer populations and shamelessly generalize to the overall population to show how multicultural we are or to sell a book or, for example, how Brazilians are highly Jewish related. On this last case they analyzed people from the few villages still with some Sephardic ancestry and a especial town in the south where Phoenicians explored ore resources some 3000 years ago and inherited their lineages. This is all sick and history is being rewritten.

[Vasconcelos]

The Suevi population in Iberia has been estimated at between 50,000 and 75,000. The total may include Asding Vandals and Buri who migrated into the north-west of Iberia together with the Suevi.

I was under the impression the Visigoths were 60,000 when they moved to Iberia, hard to assume they were equally numbered as the Goths :confused:

[Anthropologique]

No doubt about that, but in some especial places it can be substantial (say some 12%) although without real impact in the overall average. Some studies, usually ordered by someone or in someone's interest, tend to emphasize very special and genetically “less European” richer populations and shamelessly generalize to the overall population to show how multicultural we are or to sell a book or, for example, how Brazilians are highly Jewish related. On this last case they analyzed people from the few villages still with some Sephardic ancestry and a especial town in the south where Phoenicians explored ore resources some 3000 years ago and inherited their lineages. This is all sick and history is being rewritten.

F**cked up "researchers". Look what some people have done with Alcacer do Sal, a well-known slave ("Moors", negroes, Guanches, Arabs...) area that served as a haven for social outcasts such as lepers. It also was a malaria zone. Essentially, Alcacer was an isolated community for more than 400 years. The genetics of the town are unique and far from being representative of Portugal generally, but that has not stopped some unscrupulous people from including Alcacer do Sal findings as part of the overall indigenous Portuguese genome portrait. Just plain idiotic and disingenuous.

[Anthropologique]

I was under the impression the Visigoths were 60,000 when they moved to Iberia, hard to assume they were equally numbered as the Goths :confused:

The Suevi came first and apparently were in the 50-75 thousand range, likely including the Buri and Asding Vandals. I believe the Visigoths migrated in several waves so it's difficult to determine their true numbers.

[Anthropologique]

The Celtiberians alone made about 40% of the population of Iberia, according to this study from the Real Academia de la Historia :

http://anthrospain.blogspot.com/2011/10/celtiberia-population-estimate.html

I've seen similar estimates based on archaeological reconstruction and other data. The Celts in the west made up another 30-35% of the population. What this means is that Celtic (Gallaecians, Astures and Celtici), Celtiberians and Para-Celts (Lusitanians in Central Portugal) constituted 70-75% (with Celtiberians 40% of the total) of Iberia's population at one time. That's why some researchers assert that Iberia possibly had the highest Celtic settlement saturation level, compared to other regions.

[2Cool]

F**cked up "researchers". Look what some people have done with Alcacer do Sal, a well-known slave ("Moors", negroes, Guanches, Arabs...) area that served as a haven for social outcasts such as lepers. It also was a malaria zone. Essentially, Alcacer was an isolated community for more than 400 years. The genetics of the town are unique and far from being representative for Portugal, but that has not stopped some unscrupulous people from including Alcacer do Sal findings as part of the overall indigenous Portuguese genome portrait. Just plain idiotic and disingenuous.

There's a interesting video about the people from Alcacer do Sal on youtube:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JhmjO6jWNo
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iall6rAlomE

[Anthropologique]

There's a interesting video about the people from Alcacer do Sal on youtube:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JhmjO6jWNo
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iall6rAlomE

This is total crap and loaded with inaccuracies. It's treated as laughable rubbish in (serious) internet Antro forums.

[Anthropologique]

Can you give me the article title, Sandra Beleza has numerous publications since 2000 but the only one I found from 2006 in ScienceDirect is a study about São Tomé population.

Micro-Phylogeographic and Demographic History of Portuguese Male Lineages. Beleza et al. Annals of Human Genetics (2006) 70. pp.181-194.

This study was first released by the University of London sometime late in 2005, I believe.

[Catrau]

This is total crap and loaded with inaccuracies. It's considered as rubbish in (serious) internet Antro forums.

This was shown before the release of a book as commercial strategy. The book was published by Gradiva and the title is "Património Genético Português" but the study is made on uncommon populations such as these and the Sephardic one, yet as the title says it looks like all Portuguese have those populations genetics.

[Anthropologique]

This was shown before the release of a book as commercial strategy. The book was published by Gradiva and the title is "Património Genético Português" but the study is made on uncommon populations such as these and the Sephardic one, yet as the title says it looks like all Portuguese have those populations genetics.

None of these populations can be considered as genetically indigenous Portuguese. A joke...

[antonio]

I've seen similar estimates based on archaeological reconstruction and other data. The Celts in the west made up another 30-35% of the population. What this mean is that Celtic (Gallaecians, Astures and Celtici), Celtiberians and Para-Celts (Lusitanians in Central Portugal) constituted 70-75% (with Celtiberians 40% of the total) of Iberia's population at one time. That's why some researchers assert that Iberia possibly had the highest Celtic settlement saturation level, compared to other regions.

IMHO there's a certain inconsistence -maybe based in XX century Spanish educative system reductionism (Celtic NW, Iberic SE and Celtiberian at the middle) - in your classification: why Celtiberians and not Celtic-Gallaecians? Celtiberians were not a mixed ethnicity, just Celts partialy culturized by Mediterranean civilizations, moreover was it ever possible a Celtic civilization on Europe most-centered areas without exogenous (mainly Mediterranean) influences?

[Ibericus]

I was under the impression the Visigoths were 60,000 when they moved to Iberia, hard to assume they were equally numbered as the Goths :confused:
No, according to the most repeated number of Visigoths in history books is 200,000 Visigoths.

[Ibericus]

I've seen similar estimates based on archaeological reconstruction and other data. The Celts in the west made up another 30-35% of the population. What this mean is that Celtic (Gallaecians, Astures and Celtici), Celtiberians and Para-Celts (Lusitanians in Central Portugal) constituted 70-75% (with Celtiberians 40% of the total) of Iberia's population at one time. That's why some researchers assert that Iberia possibly had the highest Celtic settlement saturation level, compared to other regions.
True, in fact there is another study, from University of Wisconsin, department of Celtic studies, wich says this :

"Modern scholarship, however, has clearly proven that Celtic presence and influences were most substantial in Iberia (with perhaps the highest settlement saturation in Western Europe), particularly in the western and northern regions."

Alberto J. Lorrio, Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero (2005). "The Celts in Iberia: An Overview". E-Keltoi: Journal of Interdisciplinary Celtic Studies 6: 167–254. http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.html.

[Anthropologique]

No, according to the most repeated number of Visigoths in history books is 200,000 Visigoths.

My understanding is that total Germanics in Iberia at zenith were ~ 350,000 - Visigoths, Suevi, Vandals, Asding Vandals and Buri.

[Damião de Góis]

There's a interesting video about the people from Alcacer do Sal on youtube:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JhmjO6jWNo
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iall6rAlomE

That is not Álcacer do Sal, that's some little village in the disctric of Álcacer. Álcacer has 13000 people and they don't look like the 3 or 4 shown on those videos:

Kdp1an1kkQM

[Zephyr]

I liked the "romans were expelled by the moors" part.

That's the famous Victor Bandarra for you. In his 5am shows which no one gives a shit about, we can see the douchebago interviewing all sorts of discontent immigrants to speak ill about his own country while he foams on how racist and backwards portuguese are.

Never seen such a rabid self hater, not even among the ranks of staunch left bloc xenophile trotskyists. I wonder what are his motivations. He's been religiously doing this work for almost 20 years, since TVI started broadcasting.

[Vasconcelos]

staunch left bloc xenophile trotskyists

My reaction to whenever I hear that party named can be viewed here, at 9seconds into the clip.

eP-zNP9Hz9k

[Damião de Góis]

I liked the "romans were expelled by the moors" part.

That's the famous Victor Bandarra for you. In his 5am shows which no one gives a shit about, we can see the douchebago interviewing all sorts of discontent immigrants to speak ill about his own country while he foams on how racist and backwards portuguese are.

Never seen such a rabid self hater, not even among the ranks of staunch left bloc xenophile trotskyists. I wonder what are his motivations. He's been religiously doing this work for almost 20 years, since TVI started broadcasting.

He's not famous, he's a nobody. And he has a weird surname. I never saw that surname before.

[Curtis24]

Yes, it seems that the Celtic languages came from Iberia. Note the prevalence of black hair in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, it seems that the Celtic languages came from Iberia. Note the prevalence of black hair in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

All wrong :coffee:

[Catrau]

The Visigoths were Rome's lapdogs. :p They were actually sent here by the Emperor to stop the germanic invasions into Hispania. Apart from that, they are responsible for the moorish invasion.

I respect more the Suevi, and their capital was in Braga so their presence in the north was much more important than elsewhere. Their kingdom also lasted almost as much as the Visigothic one.

That's true but before inviting the moorish for an excursion in Iberia there were two factions fighting for the throne. On the Atlantic side the faction was the one that supported Rodrigo (Rodriguistas), some toponyms must have to do with that such as Castelo Rodrigo (PT) and Ciudad Rodrigo (ES). On the Mediterranean side there was the faction of the Vizitans that supported Aquila. The Moors were Vizitans friends and were called to help in the fight against the Rodriguistas but the Muhammad followers soon decided to took control of the whole block.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Faccoes-de-Rodrigo-e-de-Vitzia.jpg

A very good source of information on this time window for western Iberia is this (it's a must have):

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Das_invases.jpg

http://www.presenca.pt/livro/-o-218199/de-portugal/portugal-das-invasoes-germanicas-a-reconquista/?search_word=nova história de portugal

[Alvarado]

A very good source of information on this time window for western Iberia is this (it's a must have):
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Das_invases.jpg


I wonder if this Joel Serrão has any relation with the historian Joaquim Veríssimo Serrão. I enjoyed reading his "History of Portugal".

[Catrau]

I wonder if this Joel Serrão has any relation with the historian Joaquim Veríssimo Serrão. I enjoyed reading his "History of Portugal".

I don't think so. The surname Serrão is not that frequent, so it must be a coincidence. His father name was João Baptista Serrão and his mother Cristina Gomes Lume.

http://www.tsf.pt/paginainicial/interior.aspx?content_id=914658&page=-1

[TheDog]

The celts just lived in iberia then...spaniards are not celts. Or tell me something ¿Are you arabian due to Arabian people whom lived there?

[Anthropologique]

The celts just lived in iberia then...spaniards are not celts. Or tell me something ¿Are you arabian due to Arabian people whom lived there?

This post was due to a technical glitch.

[Lábaru]

Subrace: White
Country: United States

[gold_fenix]

The celts just lived in iberia then...spaniards are not celts. Or tell me something ¿Are you arabian due to Arabian people whom lived there?

We aren't celts for two reason because celtic culture disappeared by the process of romanization and second because celtic and iberian mixed, with the arabic was different the influence of these people was really small from a point of view demographic, visigoth accepted Islam as his religious and they didn't mixed with people of Iberia and all false arabic culture really was developed here by autochthonous people and visigoth converse (arabs)

[Anthropologique]

The celts just lived in iberia then...spaniards are not celts. Or tell me something ¿Are you arabian due to Arabian people whom lived there?

Celtic is a cultural category, primarily. The Celtic population of Iberia at one time made up 70-75% of the peninsula total. At base, they were the dominant element of Iberia's autochthonous population. Some would argue (Koch and Cunliffe, for example) that Celticity actually originated in south-west Iberia (Tartessos). The Iberian Peninsula also had several significant waves of Celtic peoples from central Europe (and the research demonstrates that they settled in large numbers).

No one is truly "Celtic" anymore, however, certain regions have maintained significant aspects of Celtic culture. You find these areas in the Atlantic Facade - northern and western regions of Spain and Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of France, such as Brittany. In terms of socio-cultural and ethnic identity, one can legitimately claim to be Celtic if he / she hails from a territory that has had a long and enduring Celtic history and culture. In this regard, what is left of Celtic identity is found along the Atlantic fringe.

You can't compare the Celtic element at all to the Moors / Arabs in Iberia. The Celts are part of Spain and Portugal's genetic substratum while the latter were a small and constantly fluctuating group of invaders / military occupants, and few actually settled. Contrary to exaggerated myth and other distorted information, full heritage population genetics shows most clearly that the "Moors" had a minimal impact on the Iberian Peninsula native population.

[TheDog]

We aren't celts for two reason because celtic culture disappeared by the process of romanization and second because celtic and iberian mixed, with the arabic was different the influence of these people was really small from a point of view demographic, visigoth accepted Islam as his religious and they didn't mixed with people of Iberia and all false arabic culture really was developed here by autochthonous people and visigoth converse (arabs)


HI Gold_fenix, totally agree. The celts were exterminated in Numantia.


Best regards

[TheDog]

Celtic is a cultural category, primarily. The Celtic population of Iberia at one time made up 70-75% of the peninsula total. At base, they were the dominant element of Iberia's autochthonous population. Some would argue (Koch and Cunliffe, for example) that Celticity actually originated in south-west Iberia (Tartessos). The Iberian Peninsula also had several significant waves of Celtic peoples from central Europe (and the research demonstrates that they settled in large numbers).

No one is truly "Celtic" anymore, however, certain regions have maintained significant aspects of Celtic culture. You find these areas in the Atlantic Facade - northern and western regions of Spain and Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of France, such as Brittany. In terms of socio-cultural and ethnic identity, one can legitimately claim to be Celtic if he / she hails from a territory that has had a long and enduring Celtic history and culture. In this regard, what is left of Celtic identity is found along the Atlantic fringe.

You can't compare the Celtic element at all to the Moors / Arabs in Iberia. The Celts are part of Spain and Portugal's genetic substratum while the latter were a small and constantly fluctuating group of invaders / military occupants, and few actually settled. Contrary to exaggerated myth and other distorted information, full heritage population genetics shows most clearly that the "Moors" had a minimal impact on the Iberian Peninsula native population.


Celtic stuff is just a cultural category, I agree. But I don't about genetic substratum in Spain or Portugal.


Regards.

[Anthropologique]

HI Gold_fenix, totally agree. The celts were exterminated in Numantia.


Best regards

Sorry only a (minor) portion of the Celts in total were exterminated in the Numantia region. Read what I wrote about the Celts in Iberia as a whole.

BTW, you read a lot like the person who was posting nonsense about Spaniards / Iberians on another board (DNA-Forums?). Same location (Baltimore) claiming to be Irish (but because of poor English a suspected Latino) with the same style verbiage, pretty much. This, I'm afraid, is a tired act.

[Anthropologique]

Celtic stuff is just a cultural category, I agree. But I don't about genetic substratum in Spain or Portugal.


Regards.

Really? Check the Oxford genetics journals for a start.

[Argyll]

Celtic is not just cultural.

Irish =/= Anglo

[TheDog]

Sorry only a (minor) portion of the Celts in total were exterminated in the Numantia region. Read what I wrote about the Celts in Iberia as a whole.

BTW, you read a lot like the person who was posting nonsense about Spaniards / Iberians on another board (DNA-Forums?). Same location (Baltimore) claiming to be Irish (but because of poor English a suspected Latino) with the same style verbiage, pretty much. This, I'm afraid, is a tired act.


You can suppose that I’m a latin but the fact remains that you are not a celt descendant. Please check this out:

The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times; Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.


See you later.

[Alvarado]

The celts just lived in iberia then...spaniards are not celts. Or tell me something ¿Are you arabian due to Arabian people whom lived there?

Ésta es la única razón por la cual puse "Celtiberian" en mi perfil, simplemente para tocar los cojones a esta ralea.

[Damião de Góis]

You can suppose that I’m a latin but the fact remains that you are not a celt descendant. Please check this out:

The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times; Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.


See you later.

So, these people were all exterminated by the Romans?

http://files.giltradutor.webnode.com.br/200000144-8efe58ff84/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.png

[Anthropologique]

You can suppose that I’m a latin but the fact remains that you are not a celt descendant. Please check this out:

The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times; Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.


See you later.

The fact is you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Quoting 19th century nonsense and material from the 90's that has long been made irrelevant by the most recent genetic and archaeological findings. Brilliant, Panchito, brilliant.:rolleyes: So, tell us, what is your next childish trick?

There are several clades researched by geneticists that have been identified with Celtic migrations and at least two are found in France, the British Isles and Iberia. I'm RL-21*, which is the final mutation of L-116, well identified in Spain and Portugal. I'm Breton and Gallaecian (North-west Iberia) by descent, so what else can I be but Celtic? Atlantic Facade peoples, from Spain, Portugal to Ireland and the Orkney Islands, are connected by an exceedingly long (since the the Bronze Age) history of social and cultural exchange and, yes, Celticity.

Listen Panchito, your stupidity is well known at DNA-Forums and other genetics sites and it's only a matter of time before you are exposed as a duffus troll here. Back to your hovel in Baltimore.

[Vasconcelos]

Your ignorance is extremelly impressive, yank, good job and keep up the good work.

[Lábaru]

Ésta es la única razón por la cual puse "Celtiberian" en mi perfil, simplemente para tocar los cojones a esta ralea.

Yo puse hasta los nombres de las tribus, me falta alguna, a ver si edito y completo un día ¿crees que deberíamos simplemente poner "white"?

[Damião de Góis]

Yo puse hasta los nombres de las tribus, me falta alguna, a ver si edito y completo un día ¿crees que deberíamos simplemente poner "white"?

Eu não posso pôr Celtici. É óbvio demais... iria causar muito alarido :D

[Riki]

The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times; Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.


See you later.

The problem lays in the bold section.

[Alvarado]

Yo puse hasta los nombres de las tribus, me falta alguna, a ver si edito y completo un día ¿crees que deberíamos simplemente poner "white"?

Hombre, yo creo que Celto-Germanic (por lo de los godos y tal) sería aún mejor. No obstante, tampoco me gustaría ser responsable de que a alguno de estos infraseres le dé un patatús.

[Damião de Góis]

Ésta es la única razón por la cual puse "Celtiberian" en mi perfil, simplemente para tocar los cojones a esta ralea.

Ok, agora sim. Estou solidário contigo.
Acho que deviamos fazer todos o mesmo. :D

[Lábaru]

Hombre, yo creo que Celto-Germanic (por lo de los godos y tal) sería aún mejor. No obstante, tampoco me gustaría ser responsable de que a alguno de estos infraseres le dé un patatús.

Deberíamos un día apuntarnos al foro ese de Skadi o a algún otro germánico, con nombres como Roderico o Witiza.

[Alvarado]

Ok, agora sim. Estou solidário contigo.
Acho que deviamos fazer todos o mesmo. :D

Estoy tentado hasta de substituir Romance por Celtic en Meta-Ethnicity.

[Damião de Góis]

Estoy tentado hasta de substituir Romance por Celtic en Meta-Ethnicity.

lol, isso não tem a ver com a língua ?

[Alvarado]

lol, isso não tem a ver com a língua ?

Da igual, la cuestión es molestar.

[Lábaru]

Estoy tentado hasta de substituir Romance por Celtic en Meta-Ethnicity.

¿Todavía no lo has hecho? ponte ya germano/celto/ibero o Celtiberogodo hombre, o mejor aún ponte "Old westerner" que eso levanta casi más ampollas.

[Amapola]

Oye, me uno a vosotros.

[TheDog]

The fact is you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Quoting 19th century nonsense and material from the 90's that has long been made irrelevant by the most recent genetic and archaeological findings. Brilliant, Panchito, brilliant.:rolleyes: So, tell us, what is your next childish trick?

There are several clades researched by geneticists that have been identified with Celtic migrations and at least two are found in France, the British Isles and Iberia. I'm RL-21*, which is the final mutation of L-116, well identified in Spain and Portugal. I'm Breton and Gallaecian (North-west Iberia) by descent, so what else can I be but Celtic? Atlantic Facade peoples, from Spain, Portugal to Ireland and the Orkney Islands, are connected by an exceedingly long (since the the Bronze Age) history of social and cultural exchange and, yes, Celticity.

Listen Panchito, your stupidity is well known at DNA-Forums and other genetics sites and it's only a matter of time before you are exposed as a duffus troll here. Back to your hovel in Baltimore.


I don't know what you talking about, as for the rest facts speak louder than words


Arab and Berber genetic influence upon Iberia the Moorish legacy Alberta North African Genes in Iberia Studied by Y-Chromosome DNA Haplotype 5 Gérard Lucotte, Nathalie Gérard, and Géraldine Mer Abstract: The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa. The highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative frequencies of haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a cline of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in Iberia clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia. Key Words: DYS1,P49/TAQI, Berberian haplotype, Southwest Europe During the 7th century A.D., Muslims coming from the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East recruited Berbers on their way to invading the north. One of the most important population movements on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea was the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by North Africans, soon after this first Muslim invasion. More than eight centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of Muslim domination in the southern part of Iberia created an important cultural legacy and possible gene exchange between North African and Iberian populations. It has also been documented that genes from the Mediterranean area entered Iberia in more ancient times (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1999). http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archi...hp/t-1807.html


See ya

[Vasconcelos]

Hi Savant.

See ya and never come back, your ignorance on Iberian history is so furstrating no one should even bother to give you a proper reply :)



People like this cunt are the reason I'm posting less and less on this forum (not to mention this thread was about Celts, he's trying to prove we're arabs or some shit..I hope he dies in a fire while his head is stuck on a toilet full of shit)

[Amapola]

Hey Vasco, my fellow Celt, nice to see you around here again ;)

[Vasconcelos]

Hola, Fresita!

As I said, I'm kind of disappointed at the recent troll waves, adding that to the fact that univ started again, it gives me very little will to post here as much as I did before.

[Lábaru]

¿Es Savant? parece tan tonto como él desde luego pero me es muy complicado diferenciar a los "white" americanos, todos parecen cortados por el mismo patrón.

[Anthropologique]

I don't know what you talking about, as for the rest facts speak louder than words


Arab and Berber genetic influence upon Iberia the Moorish legacy Alberta North African Genes in Iberia Studied by Y-Chromosome DNA Haplotype 5 Gérard Lucotte, Nathalie Gérard, and Géraldine Mer Abstract: The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa. The highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative frequencies of haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a cline of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in Iberia clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia. Key Words: DYS1,P49/TAQI, Berberian haplotype, Southwest Europe During the 7th century A.D., Muslims coming from the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East recruited Berbers on their way to invading the north. One of the most important population movements on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea was the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by North Africans, soon after this first Muslim invasion. More than eight centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of Muslim domination in the southern part of Iberia created an important cultural legacy and possible gene exchange between North African and Iberian populations. It has also been documented that genes from the Mediterranean area entered Iberia in more ancient times (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1999). http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archi...hp/t-1807.html


See ya

LMFAO...You are a friggin fool. Do you know who Arnaiz-Villena is? The clown who has been totally discredited for concluding that Greeks are close to Ethiopians genetically.:rolleyes2:

Obviously, you have no idea what autosomal DNA testing has shown over and over again. Autosomal testing, PANCHITO, measures FULL heritage and Iberians are between 87 and 91% European. Between 42 and 43 percent are Northern European influences. These percentages are well in line with other Western European populations such as the French. Keep embarrassing yourself, PANCHITO:rolleyes2:

BTW, it's "MAY THE LUCK OF THE IRISH BE WITH YOU". It's OK Mexico Man, we know you are not Irish. But, of course, the people over at DNA-Forums, etc. already know that quite well.

[Anthropologique]

¿Es Savant? parece tan tonto como él desde luego pero me es muy complicado diferenciar a los "white" americanos, todos parecen cortados por el mismo patrón.

It's some mestizo who has been polluting DNA-forums and a few other sites with idiocies about Iberians. He was basically thrown out of DNA-Forums for "intellectual dishonesty".

His signature is exactly the same as what he used in other anthro and genetics forums. Brains are not one of his assets.

[Catrau]

I don't know what you talking about, as for the rest facts speak louder than words


Arab and Berber genetic influence upon Iberia the Moorish legacy Alberta North African Genes in Iberia Studied by Y-Chromosome DNA Haplotype 5 Gérard Lucotte, Nathalie Gérard, and Géraldine Mer Abstract: The frequency of haplotype 5 at the Y-chromosome-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/TaqI) was reported in a study of 487 males originating from five different geographic locations in Iberia and North Africa. The highest frequency of haplotype 5 (68.9%) was previously observed in Berbers from Morocco, and it has been established that this haplotype is a characteristic Berber haplotype in North Africa. The relative frequencies of haplotype 5 distribution show a geographical gradient of decreasing frequency according to latitude in Iberia: 40.8% in Andalusia, 36.2% in Portugal, 12.1% in Catalonia, and 11.3% in the Basque Country; such a cline of decreasing frequency of haplotype 5 from the south to the north in Iberia clearly establishes a gene flow from North Africa towards Iberia. Key Words: DYS1,P49/TAQI, Berberian haplotype, Southwest Europe During the 7th century A.D., Muslims coming from the Arabian Peninsula and the Middle East recruited Berbers on their way to invading the north. One of the most important population movements on both sides of the Mediterranean Sea was the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by North Africans, soon after this first Muslim invasion. More than eight centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of Muslim domination in the southern part of Iberia created an important cultural legacy and possible gene exchange between North African and Iberian populations. It has also been documented that genes from the Mediterranean area entered Iberia in more ancient times (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1999). http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/archi...hp/t-1807.html


See ya

Este gajo é brasileiro pah, isto é conversa de brasileiro.

[Anthropologique]

Este gajo é brasileiro pah, isto é conversa de brasileiro.

One thing is certain, he's not Irish. :lol00002:

[Amapola]

Realmente, ¿de dónde viene tanta obsesión por nosotros? Es que me sigo sorprendiendo...

[curupira]

Não é conversa de brasileiro não. Prove que ele é brasileiro.

Arthur Kemp não é brasileiro. O autor do "black man's gift to Portugal" não é brasileiro. E não é brasileiro quem escreveu o artigo sobre o "povo português" na Enciclopédia Britânica de 1911. O preconceito contra portugueses é muito maior no mundo de língua inglesa do que no Brasil. Se liga.

Links com americanos discutindo Portugal:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-30093.html
http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=76633
http://amren.com/oldnews/archives/2011/03/a_nation_of_dro.php


Este gajo é brasileiro pah, isto é conversa de brasileiro.

[TheDog]

One thing is certain, he's not Irish. :lol00002:


Again you can suppose I'm not Irish but beyond the shadow of a doubt you are not a celtic offspring.

The remaining is just Yadda yadda yadda.


See ya hispanic guy.

[Anthropologique]

Again you can suppose I'm not Irish but beyond the shadow of a doubt you are not a celtic offspring.

The remaining is just Yadda yadda yadda.


See ya hispanic guy.

I never claimed to be Irish, Panchito. I was born in Brittany (France) and am of Breton and Gallaecian descent.

Shall I post some of your idiocies and how you have been exposed in other forums? You're not fooling anyone who has a functioning brain Mex-man.:rolleyes:

[Amapola]

The celts just lived in iberia then...spaniards are not celts. Or tell me something ¿Are you arabian due to Arabian people whom lived there?

Interesting seeing an anglo use ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿ he's obviously a south American.

[Raikaswinþs]

and today's Darwin award goes to... (drum roll)




Again you can suppose I'm not Irish but beyond the shadow of a doubt you are not a celtic offspring.

The remaining is just Yadda yadda yadda.


See ya hispanic guy.

[Anthropologique]

Interesting seeing an anglo use ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿ he's obviously a south American.

He's a self-hating mestizo from the slums of Baltimore. TheDog has been exposed royally many times over. Just another deranged low-life.

[Sikeliot]

He's a self-hating mestizo from the slums of Baltimore. He's been exposed royally many times over. Just another deranged low-life.

Is he a formerly banned user?

[Raikaswinþs]

Interesting seeing an anglo use ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿ he's obviously a south American.

a complexed Hispanic American might he be. Here we have truly likable hermanos transatlanticos. But there are a lot of insecure people around the world. The Americas are no exception

[Anthropologique]

Is he a formerly banned user?

Don't know about Apricity but he was torched over at DNA-Forums and at least one other site. The clown posts the same crap over and over...the Celts in Iberia were exterminated by the Romans, blah, blah, blah.

[Sikeliot]

the Celts in Iberia were exterminated by the Romans

He actually thinks that? Then he knows little about the Romans, since they were never known to settle extensively in any of their colonies.

[Anthropologique]

He actually thinks that? Then he knows little about the Romans, since they were never known to settle extensively in any of their colonies.

He's a badly educated liar who just makes stuff up or takes things totally out of context. Probably a social misfit.

[Sikeliot]

He's a badly educated liar who just makes stuff up or takes things totally out of context. Probably a social misfit.

Well, hopefully he will start to maintain good behavior on here.. everyone gets a fresh slate but that does not last when the behavior is not acceptable.

[TheDog]

Well, hopefully he will start to maintain good behavior on here.. everyone gets a fresh slate but that does not last when the behavior is not acceptable.

Dear Clementina I’ve had a good behavior as of today. Some other misnamed panchito, latin, southamerican, Mexican and so forth and so on. I’ve voiced my own concept around celtiberians always based on historical links such as this:

In 133 BC, after eight months of siege, the starving population was reduced to cannibalism and, filthy and foul smelling, compelled to surrender. But, "such was the love of liberty and of valour which existed in this small barbarian town," relates Appian, that many chose to kill themselves rather than capitulate. Families poisoned themselves, weapons were burned, and the beleaguered town set ablaze. There had been only about eight-thousand fighting men when the war began; half that number survived to garrison Numantia. Some of the pitiable survivors were chosen for Scipio's triumph, the others were sold as slaves and the town razed to the ground, the territory divided among its neighbors.

Still, there was resistance. In 26-25 BC, the Cantabrian War was fought in the mountains of northern Spain, the first year of the campaign led by Augustus, himself. In celebration of victory, the doors of the Temple of Janus, traditionally kept open in times of war, were closed for only the fourth time in the long history of Rome. But the gesture was premature. The Cantabrians revolted again in 22 BC and, although they were defeated,
"Not many of the Cantabri were taken prisoner, for when they saw they had lost all hope of freedom, they lost all desire to preserve their lives either. Some set fire to their forts and cut their own throats, others willingly remained with their companions and died in the flames, while others took poison in the sight of all. In this way the great majority and the fiercest among the tribesmen were wiped out."
Cassius Dio, Roman History (XLIV.5)

There was one last rebellion in 19 BC, when many of the Cantabrians, having been sold into slavery after their earlier defeat, murdered their masters and returned home. Subdued by Agrippa, who killed almost all those of military age and disarmed the others, the tribe was forced from its strongholds and compelled to live in the plains. After almost two centuries, the wars in Spain had come to an end.

References: Appian: Wars of the Romans in Iberia (2000) by J. S. Richardson; Roman Spain: Conquest and Assimilation (1991) by Leonard A. Curchin; The Romans in Spain (1996) by J. S. Richardson; Hispaniae: Spain and the Development of Roman Imperialism, 218-82 BC (1986) by J. S. Richardson; Roman Spain (1988) by S. J. Keay; Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide (1998) by Roger Collins.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/hispania/celtiberianwar.html

I’d love to parley based on reasoning from now on.

Cordially yours TheDog

[Osweo]

Oh just fuck off, you stupid thick cunt. :yawn:

[Lábaru]

Anda, ahora nos exterminaron los romanos a todos los cántabros ¿o sólo a los más fieros? me pregunto aquellos cántabros que cogían de esclavos (los menos fieros) hasta que se dieron cuenta de que eran propensos a matar al "amo" y volver andando a su tierra ¿volvían a una tierra desierta o convivían en el campamento con las legiones romanas?.

[Amapola]

Love, can you make his reputations even redder? :D

[Anthropologique]

Dear Clementina I’ve had a good behavior as of today. Some other misnamed panchito, latin, southamerican, Mexican and so forth and so on. I’ve voiced my own concept around celtiberians always based on historical links such as this:

In 133 BC, after eight months of siege, the starving population was reduced to cannibalism and, filthy and foul smelling, compelled to surrender. But, "such was the love of liberty and of valour which existed in this small barbarian town," relates Appian, that many chose to kill themselves rather than capitulate. Families poisoned themselves, weapons were burned, and the beleaguered town set ablaze. There had been only about eight-thousand fighting men when the war began; half that number survived to garrison Numantia. Some of the pitiable survivors were chosen for Scipio's triumph, the others were sold as slaves and the town razed to the ground, the territory divided among its neighbors.

Still, there was resistance. In 26-25 BC, the Cantabrian War was fought in the mountains of northern Spain, the first year of the campaign led by Augustus, himself. In celebration of victory, the doors of the Temple of Janus, traditionally kept open in times of war, were closed for only the fourth time in the long history of Rome. But the gesture was premature. The Cantabrians revolted again in 22 BC and, although they were defeated,
"Not many of the Cantabri were taken prisoner, for when they saw they had lost all hope of freedom, they lost all desire to preserve their lives either. Some set fire to their forts and cut their own throats, others willingly remained with their companions and died in the flames, while others took poison in the sight of all. In this way the great majority and the fiercest among the tribesmen were wiped out."
Cassius Dio, Roman History (XLIV.5)

There was one last rebellion in 19 BC, when many of the Cantabrians, having been sold into slavery after their earlier defeat, murdered their masters and returned home. Subdued by Agrippa, who killed almost all those of military age and disarmed the others, the tribe was forced from its strongholds and compelled to live in the plains. After almost two centuries, the wars in Spain had come to an end.

References: Appian: Wars of the Romans in Iberia (2000) by J. S. Richardson; Roman Spain: Conquest and Assimilation (1991) by Leonard A. Curchin; The Romans in Spain (1996) by J. S. Richardson; Hispaniae: Spain and the Development of Roman Imperialism, 218-82 BC (1986) by J. S. Richardson; Roman Spain (1988) by S. J. Keay; Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide (1998) by Roger Collins.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/hispania/celtiberianwar.html

I’d love to parley based on reasoning from now on.

Cordially yours TheDog

Come on guy, there are endless (and very recent) professional sources that show how extensive and long-lasting Celticity was in Iberia. All you have to do is look up the publications of the University of Wisconsin, University of Wales and many others. Do you think that nearly 2,000 years - not even including the Proto-Celts - of Celtic presence in Iberia just dissapeard in one fell swoop? You have no argument, either culturally or genetically, Panchito.


:loco:

[Anthropologique]

If you are an englishman you aren't a celt you are a breton, sorry.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, truly.

No, I'm a BRETON, Osweo is a BRITON, PANCHITO. Guess they didn't teach you much down in Aztec land.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.


British (particulary english) are not celtic they are mostly a germanic people.

[Anthropologique]

I'd like to see the link of that source, latin boy.

Go to I-Keltoi "Celts in Iberia" University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Also, Celtic from the West (2010) eds. Cunliffe and Koch, Tartessian (2009 and Tartessian 2 (2011) by Koch. That's just the beginning, Panchito. Hope your reading comprehension is up to the task.

Let me put it to you very plainly, court jester, your lies and assorted childish nonsense are not tolerated on this forum. Go play games with people more your age - like 6 or 7.

[Anthropologique]

No you are not a BRITON, you are a LATIN AND HISPANIC. Didn't your hispanic teachers teach you history in Arabian land?


See ya hispano.

What a pitiful clown you are.:rolleyes2: Brain atrophy from drinking the water in Mexico?

[Sikeliot]

No you are not a BRITON, you are a LATIN AND HISPANIC. Didn't your hispanic teachers teach you history in Arabian land?


See ya hispano.

You're obviously not here to be serious or actually have an intelligent discussion, so I feel I must warn you one more time to cut out the childish nonsense if you want to stay here.

[Eldritch]

You're obviously not here to be serious or actually have an intelligent discussion, so I feel I must warn you one more time to cut out the childish nonsense if you want to stay here.

Now that you've been given a friendly warning, your options are to behave, or to be escorted out through the back door. The choice is yours, Dog.

EDIT:

Or do you prefer to be addressed as "Dawg"? :chin:

[Treffie]

Go to I-Keltoi "Celts in Iberia" University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Also, Celtic from the West (2010) eds. Cunliffe and Koch, Tartessian (2009 and Tartessian 2 (2011) by Koch.

It was only recently that I realsied how seriously Koch is being taken these days. He is after all the world's foremost Celtologist.

[Anthropologique]

You're obviously not here to be serious or actually have an intelligent discussion, so I feel I must warn you one more time to cut out the childish nonsense if you want to stay here.

It's the same BS wherever this loon goes. He craps up the street with falsehoods and moronic comments about Iberians while pretending to be Irish. LOL! We got his real profile on another forum and it clearly shows he's some self-hating Central American mestizo with nothing better to do than annoy Spaniards. Quite disturbed.

[Sikeliot]

It's the same BS wherever this loon goes. He craps up the street with falsehoods and moronic comments about Iberians while pretending to be Irish. LOL! We got his real profile on another forum and it clearly shows he's some self-hating Central American mestizo with nothing better to do than annoy Spaniards. Quite disturbed.

With what I said though, try to not engage him even more.. just ignore him when he is making stupid comments and don't fuel the fire.

[Treffie]

Any more insulting/abusive posts will be deleted

[TheDog]

Go to I-Keltoi "Celts in Iberia" University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Also, Celtic from the West (2010) eds. Cunliffe and Koch, Tartessian (2009 and Tartessian 2 (2011) by Koch. That's just the beginning, Panchito. Hope your reading comprehension is up to the task.

Let me put it to you very plainly, court jester, your lies and assorted childish nonsense are not tolerated on this forum. Go play games with people more your age - like 6 or 7.



O.K. Just one thing only....YOU AREN'T AND NEVER WILL BE A CELT DESCENDANT.


Peace out.

[Anthropologique]

Could you show me the way to a good behaviour? spaniards have bad-mouthed me calling me panchito, mexican, mestizo....and they have a good behaviour? That's a no-brainer!

The heart of the matter is in here spaniards, portuguese are not celtic to my way of thinking...that's all.


Peace out.

First way to good behaviour is to quit lying and posting half-baked, malicious opinions that have no basis in fact. Dog, you can think whatever you want but you are just completely wrong about certain things, plain as day. You're embarrassing yourself.

[Sikeliot]

O.K. Just one thing only....YOU AREN'T AND NEVER WILL BE A CELT DESCENDANT.


Peace out.

He's not even Iberian.. what are you even going on about. You appeared out of nowhere on this board just to come into this thread and trash-talk without using a single shred of evidence to back up any of what you're saying.

[Anthropologique]

O.K. Just one thing only....YOU AREN'T AND NEVER WILL BE A CELT DESCENDANT.


Peace out.

Let me put it to you this way: The opinion of a poorly educated and insecure person is worth about two cockroach droppings.:rolleyes:

Is that the whole world we hear laughing?

[Anthropologique]

He's not even Iberian.. what are you even going on about. You appeared out of nowhere on this board just to come into this thread and trash-talk without using a single shred of evidence to back up any of what you're saying.

I'm mostly Breton with Gallaecian (Galicia and N. Portugal) ties through my maternal side. All are obviously Celtic lands. This guy is just here to insult people.

[Sikeliot]

This "dog" was barking up the wrong tree. And now he's gone.

Back on topic, everyone?

[Anthropologique]

This "dog" was barking up the wrong tree. And now he's gone.

Back on topic, everyone?

Thank you Clementina.

[Septentrion]

Spain is not the motherland of Celts. Central Europe is! Celts invaded Spain, western France and Britain around the same period!

[pinguino]

Hehe well, Celts no, but certainly proto Celts.

I bet all British have Cantabrian ancestors :D

[Vesuvian Sky]

this is always a good one when it pops up...where was the 'Celtic Homeland".

Best answer: we don't really know

Worst answer (which slightly lesser then the 'best answer'...shows you how muddled this subject matter is): any given place in Europe that its ever been placed in.

Anyway, sarcasm aside, reason why I say that, is the archaeology and culture history behind archaic Celtic studies is filled with ambiguity...

Proto-Celtic though is probably developing or maybe even crystalizing during the Bell Beaker Horizon c. 2400 BC or so. Where specifically or even if it had prior development during the Corded Ware Horizon is difficult to say.

[Longobarda]

Castro de Baroña
Just south of the fishing village of "Porto do Son" there are the 2000-year old ruins of a Celtic fort at "Castro de Baroña". These ruins were only rediscovered in 1933 and are protected as a Spanish "Artistic Heritage" site. Local legend states that any person who sees the image or shape of a lion's head in the Castro de Baroña rock formations will be chosen to join the rebirth of the Celtic Clan of Baroña


Nevertheless, spanish archeologist DO NOT recognize castro culture as CELTIC. The castro culture, called otherwise "castellieri", "castellari" etc. covered all the west-east geography of those regions south of the Pirenees and the Alps, i.e. northern Spain, southern/central France, Liguria, some parts of Piemonte, Lombardy, northern Tuscany, Veneto and Slovenija/Croatia.
Strabo and Diodoro Siculo wrote about these buildings attributing them to ligurians (one of the most ancient populations of Europe, together with Libu and Scythians, followin Strabo), who were a population that french scholars define "celts", but italian ones define "celticized", as they think they could have been "ambrones", i.e. germanic tribes "celticized".
Liguri, starting from Liguria and southern France, occupied from west to east all these areas. In Spain they were also in Aragon and someone thinks they reached also "Tartessos", as there is a lake there called "lagus ligusticus". When in Spain, they mixed up with the Iberi.
In reality the castellieri culture was the one who developed in western France/Italy, instead the castellari develped in the east apparently coming from Istria. Both of them defined "proto-indoeuropean".

An example of "castellaro" in Repnic, Trieste (Friuli, Italy)

http://www.archeocartafvg.it/wp-content/uploads/casteliere-rupinpiccolo-1.jpg

Monkodonja, Croatia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Monkodonja_%2801%29.JPG/800px-Monkodonja_%2801%29.JPG

[Cristiano viejo]

Nevertheless, spanish archeologist DO NOT recognize castro culture as CELTIC.


hahahaha, you and your obsession always so funny :cool:

[Token]

Nevertheless, spanish archeologist DO NOT recognize castro culture as CELTIC. The castro culture, called otherwise "castellieri", "castellari" etc. covered all the west-east geography of those regions south of the Pirenees and the Alps, i.e. northern Spain, southern/central France, Liguria, some parts of Piemonte, Lombardy, northern Tuscany, Veneto and Slovenija/Croatia.
Strabo and Diodoro Siculo wrote about these buildings attributing them to ligurians (one of the most ancient populations of Europe, together with Libu and Scythians, followin Strabo), who were a population that french scholars define "celts", but italian ones define "celticized", as they think they could have been "ambrones", i.e. germanic tribes "celticized".
Liguri, starting from Liguria and southern France, occupied from west to east all these areas. In Spain they were also in Aragon and someone thinks they reached also "Tartessos", as there is a lake there called "lagus ligusticus". When in Spain, they mixed up with the Iberi.
In reality the castellieri culture was the one who developed in western France/Italy, instead the castellari develped in the east apparently coming from Istria. Both of them defined "proto-indoeuropean".

An example of "castellaro" in Repnic, Trieste (Friuli, Italy)

Monkodonja, Croatia

Castro culture is Celtic and was brought during the Bronze Age by Indo-European invaders, the cultural continuum was certainly broken during this period and there is no smooth transition to Castro culture from a possible pre-Celtic ancestor, it was clearly a introgression. Also, the relation to the Castellieri is mostly because it is also a possibly Indo-European phenomenom.

[Damião de Góis]

Wow, this thread was really pulled out of the gutter.

[Token]

On topic, Celts didn't originated in Spain or Iberia, we still can't know with certainty but genetic and linguistic evidences points towards a northern Beaker origin, in accordance to the Italo-Celtic linguistic hypothesis, a Bronze Age people that spread from Iberia to the British Isles and Italy. They were a relatively nomadic culture, derived directly from Yamnaya, and their migrations and genetic introgressions corresponds very well with the emergence of Celtic tongues and culture. It was also proved that they were the ones who spread R1b and its subclades across Europe.

[Longobarda]

^^
I saw these ones at the archaeology museum of Lisboa.

http://haraldwartooth.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Arte-luso-1024x888.jpg

They look absolutely asians

[Longobarda]

Assuming R1b as the native haplogroup of Peninsula then the Celtic migrations scales down in relation of Germanic ones to fit my hypothesis about having less (not much less) impact on Iberic races, in concordance with historical data: how is possible f.e. wealthy Galaicoroman elites (and even assuming Roman army disolutio, still counting the potential mercenary forces of less civilized/christianized Galaecian tribes) being needed to achieve a pact with Suebian exiguous contingents which BTW spreaded their toponims thru all the land? And same with Toletum and Visigoths. :coffee:

Some of these R1b could have been brought after Iron Age: on Germanic migrations, on Medieval Age...

Please note that in Spain, the region with less R1b haplo is GALICIA, less than Lombardy. Very curious isn't it? And in Italy, the one who has the highest R1b haplo is Tuscany, more than french Basque. Very curious, isn't it?


Country

Region/sub-group

Sample
size

%
R-M269



Wales

not specified/national

65

92.3%



Ireland

not specified/national

796

85.4%



England

Cornwall

64

78.1%



England

Leicestershire

43

62.0%



Denmark

not specified/national

56

42.9%



Netherlands

not specified/national

84

42.0%



Germany

Bavaria

80

32.3%



Poland

not specified/national

110

22.7%



France

Ille-et-Vilaine

82

80.5%



France

Haute-Garonne

57

78.9%



France

Loire-Atlantique

48

77.1%



France

Finistère

75

76.0%



France

Basques

61

75.4%



France

Vendée

50

68.0%



France

Baie de Somme

43

62.8%



Italy

Tuscany

42

76.2%



Italy

North East

30

73.5%



Italy

North-East (Ladin)

79

60.8%



Italy

Lombardy

80

59.0%



Italy

East Sicily

246

34.14%



Italy

West Sicily

68

33.0%



Italy

Sardinia

930

17.0%



Spain

Basques

116

87.1%



Spain

Catalonia

80

81.3%



Spain

East Andalucia

95

72.0%



Spain

Castilla La Mancha

63

72.0%



Spain

Galicia

88

58.0%



Spain

West Andalucia

72

55.0%



Portugal

not specified/national

657

59.9%



Portugal

South

78

46.2%



Bosnia-Herzegovina

Serbs

81

6.2%



Bosnia-Herzegovina

Bosniaks

85

3.5%



Bosnia-Herzegovina

Croats

90

2.2%



Slovenia

not specified/national

75

21.3%



Slovenia

not specified/national

70

20.6%



Croatia

not specified/national

89

12.4%



Croatia

Osijek

29

0.0%



Serbia

not specified/national

100

10.0%



Republic of Macedonia

not specified/national

64

18.8%



Greece

not specified/national

171

13.5%



Crete

none

193

17.0%



Romania

not specified/national

54

13.0%



Bulgaria

not specified/national

808

10.5%



Turkey

Lake Van

33

32.0%



Turkey

Central

152

19.1%



Turkey

Sasun

16

15.4%



Turkey

West

163

13.5%



Turkey

East

208

12.0%



Armenia & Turkey

Ararat Plain

41

37.3%



Armenia

Gardman

30

31.3%



Tunisia

Tunis

139

7.2%



Algeria

Oran

102

11.8%



Algeria

Algiers, Tizi Ouzou

46

6.5%



Lebanon

not specified/national

914

7.3%



Iran

North

33

15.2%



Iran

South

117

6.0%



Iraq

not specified/national

139

10.8%



UAE


164

3.7%



Qatar


72

1.4%



Yemen


62

0.0%



Russia

Bashkirs

471

34.40%



Russia

Roslavl (Smolensk Oblast)

107

11.2%



Russia

Belgorod

143

2.8%



Russia

Ostrov (Pskov Oblast)

75

2.7%



Russia

Pristen (Kursk Oblast)

45

2.2%



Russia

Repyevka (Voronezh Oblast)

96

5.2%



Moldova


268

14.6%



Pakistan


176

2.8%



India

various

728

0.5%



Tibet


156

0.0%



Nepal

Newar

66

10.60%



Nepal

Tamang

45

0.0%



Nepal

Kathmandu

77

0.0%



China


128

0.8%



Japan


23

0.0%



Dominican Republic

not specified/national

26

65.4%

[Longobarda]

I've seen similar estimates based on archaeological reconstruction and other data. The Celts in the west made up another 30-35% of the population. What this means is that Celtic (Gallaecians, Astures and Celtici), Celtiberians and Para-Celts (Lusitanians in Central Portugal) constituted 70-75% (with Celtiberians 40% of the total) of Iberia's population at one time. That's why some researchers assert that Iberia possibly had the highest Celtic settlement saturation level, compared to other regions.

Péninsule IbériquePlusieurs auteurs sont sceptiques sur l'emploi du terme « celtique » pour la péninsule Ibérique, qui ne dispose que d'un faible héritage archéologique, et où les langues vernaculaires celtiques ne sont que faiblement attestées.
Si les interrogations touchent l'Europe du Sud en général, elles visent particulièrement la péninsule Ibérique. S'il est établi que des tribus celtiques ont pu traverser ou se fixer dans ce qui est aujourd'hui l'Espagne, le Portugal et la Turquie, leur impact sur les cultures pré-existantes reste sujet à caution sur le plan archéologique ou historique. Quelques inscriptions en langue celtique ont pu être mises au jour en Castille et en Galatie, mais on en ignore encore l'utilisation.
Sur le plan archéologique, de nombreux auteurs et chercheurs ont encore des doutes aujourd'hui sur le lien réel entre les cultures celtiques attestées d'Europe centrale et les éléments archéologiques trouvées en Espagne. Graves-Brown et al. utilisent le terme de « mythologisation » concernant la problématique celtique dans le Nord de l'Espagne. La culture des castros du nord-ouest de l'Espagne n'est pas formellement reconnue comme étant rattachée aux oppida celtiques d'Europe centrale et de Grande-Bretagne. La répartition des chars celtiques se concentre en Europe Centrale et de l'Ouest, alors que le matériel archéologique est très rare ou absent en péninsule Ibérique.
La même problématique existe sur le plan toponymique ou historique. La toponymie celtique tend à se raréfier dans le sud-ouest de la France, région où étaient établis les Aquitains, peuple de culture pré-indo-européenne, ou aussi appelés les Proto-Basques. Se basant sur le faible nombre de toponymes celtes dans le nord de l'Espagne, Hector Iglesias conclut que les Celtes ont probablement formé dans cette région des groupes épars ou aristocratiques, mais jamais majoritaires. De nombreux noms de lieux galiciens sont à rapprocher de la toponymie basque et pyrénéenne, notamment l'étymologie-même de « Galice » et l'on ne dénombre pas davantage de toponyme celtiques dans ces régions qu'en Aragon ou en Castille, où l'on a retrouvé par ailleurs des inscriptions en langue celtique écrites en alphabet ibérique. Si des éléments toponymiques celtiques sont indubitablement attestés dans une grande partie de l'Espagne, hormis dans la partie est de peuplement ibère, on y relève curieusement, par exemple, la faible occurrence du suffixe *-āko- (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/-acum) (latinisé en -acum, -acus dans les textes), pourtant répandu dans les zones de peuplement ou d'ancien peuplement celtique. Cela pourrait indiquer une disparition précoce des langues celtiques, ce suffixe ayant eu une fonction toponymique tardive. La rareté de ce suffixe en Espagne est comparable à sa rareté dans le sud de l'Aquitaine en dessous de la Garonne jusqu'aux Pyrénées et dans l'est de la Provence, qui suggère quant à lui la présence d'un fort substrat non celtique ou une disparition précoce du gaulois.
À propos de la culture celtique dans la péninsule Ibérique, des auteurs comme Friedrich Wilhelm Putzger, Angus Konstam ou Francisco Villar (es) ont exclu ou continuent à exclure ces régions du monde celtique.
Le concept même de « Celtibère » est sujet à caution : ainsi, Dominique Garcia, faisant une analyse grammaticale des anciens textes romains et grecs, conclut que l'expression « Celto-ligures », utilisée par les mêmes auteurs qui emploient le terme de « Celtibères », désignait dans les faits des peuples Ligures.
Même dans des régions se réclamant d'un héritage celtique comme la Galice, Beatriz Díaz Santana ou Hector Iglesias expriment de sérieux doutes sur l'impact des Celtes. L'apparition au XIXe siècle du galléguisme n'est peut-être pas entièrement étrangère à l'éveil d'une conscience celtique de circonstance auquel Graves-Brown et al. font référence.

[Grace O'Malley]

On topic, Celts didn't originated in Spain or Iberia, we still can't know with certainty but genetic and linguistic evidences points towards a northern Beaker origin, in accordance to the Italo-Celtic linguistic hypothesis, a Bronze Age people that spread from Iberia to the British Isles and Italy. They were a relatively nomadic culture, derived directly from Yamnaya, and their migrations and genetic introgressions corresponds very well with the emergence of Celtic tongues and culture. It was also proved that they were the ones who spread R1b and its subclades across Europe.

Is that an error (bolded)? Because genetics doesn't bear this out. If Bronze Age people spread from Iberia to the British Isles than why are the British Isles so much higher in Yamnaya and also having a majority different subclade. I might be interpreting you wrongly but that looks fairly clear what you have stated.

[Grace O'Malley]

Please note that in Spain, the region with less R1b haplo is GALICIA, less than Lombardy. Very curious isn't it? And in Italy, the one who has the highest R1b haplo is Tuscany, more than french Basque. Very curious, isn't it?


Country

Region/sub-group

Sample
size

%
R-M269



Wales

not specified/national

65

92.3%



Ireland

not specified/national

796

85.4%



England

Cornwall

64

78.1%



England

Leicestershire

43

62.0%



Denmark

not specified/national

56

42.9%



Netherlands

not specified/national

84

42.0%



Germany

Bavaria

80

32.3%



Poland

not specified/national

110

22.7%



France

Ille-et-Vilaine

82

80.5%



France

Haute-Garonne

57

78.9%



France

Loire-Atlantique

48

77.1%



France

Finistère

75

76.0%



France

Basques

61

75.4%



France

Vendée

50

68.0%



France

Baie de Somme

43

62.8%



Italy

Tuscany

42

76.2%



Italy

North East

30

73.5%



Italy

North-East (Ladin)

79

60.8%



Italy

Lombardy

80

59.0%



Italy

East Sicily

246

34.14%



Italy

West Sicily

68

33.0%



Italy

Sardinia

930

17.0%



Spain

Basques

116

87.1%



Spain

Catalonia

80

81.3%



Spain

East Andalucia

95

72.0%



Spain

Castilla La Mancha

63

72.0%



Spain

Galicia

88

58.0%



Spain

West Andalucia

72

55.0%



Portugal

not specified/national

657

59.9%



Portugal

South

78

46.2%



Bosnia-Herzegovina

Serbs

81

6.2%



Bosnia-Herzegovina

Bosniaks

85

3.5%



Bosnia-Herzegovina

Croats

90

2.2%



Slovenia

not specified/national

75

21.3%



Slovenia

not specified/national

70

20.6%



Croatia

not specified/national

89

12.4%



Croatia

Osijek

29

0.0%



Serbia

not specified/national

100

10.0%



Republic of Macedonia

not specified/national

64

18.8%



Greece

not specified/national

171

13.5%



Crete

none

193

17.0%



Romania

not specified/national

54

13.0%



Bulgaria

not specified/national

808

10.5%



Turkey

Lake Van

33

32.0%



Turkey

Central

152

19.1%



Turkey

Sasun

16

15.4%



Turkey

West

163

13.5%



Turkey

East

208

12.0%



Armenia & Turkey

Ararat Plain

41

37.3%



Armenia

Gardman

30

31.3%



Tunisia

Tunis

139

7.2%



Algeria

Oran

102

11.8%



Algeria

Algiers, Tizi Ouzou

46

6.5%



Lebanon

not specified/national

914

7.3%



Iran

North

33

15.2%



Iran

South

117

6.0%



Iraq

not specified/national

139

10.8%



UAE


164

3.7%



Qatar


72

1.4%



Yemen


62

0.0%



Russia

Bashkirs

471

34.40%



Russia

Roslavl (Smolensk Oblast)

107

11.2%



Russia

Belgorod

143

2.8%



Russia

Ostrov (Pskov Oblast)

75

2.7%



Russia

Pristen (Kursk Oblast)

45

2.2%



Russia

Repyevka (Voronezh Oblast)

96

5.2%



Moldova


268

14.6%



Pakistan


176

2.8%



India

various

728

0.5%



Tibet


156

0.0%



Nepal

Newar

66

10.60%



Nepal

Tamang

45

0.0%



Nepal

Kathmandu

77

0.0%



China


128

0.8%



Japan


23

0.0%



Dominican Republic

not specified/national

26

65.4%




Interesting table. So Wales is highest in R1b. Would not have thought that but quite possible.

[JohnSmith]

I thought Celts lived pretty much all over Western Europe?

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Péninsule IbériquePlusieurs auteurs sont sceptiques sur l'emploi du terme « celtique » pour la péninsule Ibérique, qui ne dispose que d'un faible héritage archéologique, et où les langues vernaculaires celtiques ne sont que faiblement attestées.
Si les interrogations touchent l'Europe du Sud en général, elles visent particulièrement la péninsule Ibérique. S'il est établi que des tribus celtiques ont pu traverser ou se fixer dans ce qui est aujourd'hui l'Espagne, le Portugal et la Turquie, leur impact sur les cultures pré-existantes reste sujet à caution sur le plan archéologique ou historique. Quelques inscriptions en langue celtique ont pu être mises au jour en Castille et en Galatie, mais on en ignore encore l'utilisation.
Sur le plan archéologique, de nombreux auteurs et chercheurs ont encore des doutes aujourd'hui sur le lien réel entre les cultures celtiques attestées d'Europe centrale et les éléments archéologiques trouvées en Espagne. Graves-Brown et al. utilisent le terme de « mythologisation » concernant la problématique celtique dans le Nord de l'Espagne. La culture des castros du nord-ouest de l'Espagne n'est pas formellement reconnue comme étant rattachée aux oppida celtiques d'Europe centrale et de Grande-Bretagne. La répartition des chars celtiques se concentre en Europe Centrale et de l'Ouest, alors que le matériel archéologique est très rare ou absent en péninsule Ibérique.


No one likes a dishonest person. You intentionally edited out the following:


ur le plan archéologique, de nombreux auteurs et chercheurs ont encore des doutes aujourd'hui sur le lien réel entre les cultures celtiques attestées d'Europe centrale et les éléments archéologiques trouvées en Espagne. Graves-Brown et al. utilisent le terme de « mythologisation » concernant la problématique celtique dans le Nord de l'Espagne47. La culture des castros du nord-ouest de l'Espagne n'est pas formellement reconnue comme étant rattachée aux oppida celtiques d'Europe centrale et de Grande-Bretagne48. La répartition des chars celtiques se concentre en Europe Centrale et de l'Ouest, alors que le matériel archéologique est très rare ou absent en péninsule Ibérique ou en Italie49.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtes#P%C3%A9ninsule_Ib%C3%A9rique

This is why you didn't post a link. You didn't want people to see you manipulated the text.

There should be a rule added to the forum to ban people who manipulate quotes from any outside text for their agenda.

Shame.

[JohnSmith]

No one likes a dishonest person. You intentionally edited out the following:

ur le plan archéologique, de nombreux auteurs et chercheurs ont encore des doutes aujourd'hui sur le lien réel entre les cultures celtiques attestées d'Europe centrale et les éléments archéologiques trouvées en Espagne. Graves-Brown et al. utilisent le terme de « mythologisation » concernant la problématique celtique dans le Nord de l'Espagne47. La culture des castros du nord-ouest de l'Espagne n'est pas formellement reconnue comme étant rattachée aux oppida celtiques d'Europe centrale et de Grande-Bretagne48. La répartition des chars celtiques se concentre en Europe Centrale et de l'Ouest, alors que le matériel archéologique est très rare ou absent en péninsule Ibérique ou en Italie49.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtes#P%C3%A9ninsule_Ib%C3%A9rique

This is why you didn't post a link. You didn't want people to see you manipulated the text.

There should be a rule added to the forum for banning people for manipulating quotes from any outside text.

Integrity is hard to find these days.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Integrity is hard to find these days.

This is in my mind one of the worst things someone can do on a forum. I can accept misunderstandings. I can accept something being misread. I can accept flawed memory. I can not accept manipulating text because there is no room for such a thing to happen by mistake. If she had mistakenly cut out out that part as she was copying it there wouldn't be a period at the end of the sentence. It was intentional and that is not forgivable.

[JohnSmith]

This is in my mind one of the worst things someone can do on a forum. I can accept misunderstandings. I can accept something being misread. I can accept flawed memory. I can not accept manipulating text because there is no room for such a thing to happen by mistake. If she had mistakenly cut out out that part as she was copying it there wouldn't be a period at the end of the sentence. It was intentional and that is not forgivable.

That is what we call propaganda. When you discount or never mention any opposition. It makes it hard to trust anyone when they use it to prove a point.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

That is what we call propaganda. When you discount or never mention any opposition. It makes it hard to trust anyone when they use it to prove a point.

It's not a question of discounting or not mentioning opposing views. That doesn't involve deception. To edit out text because you like one part but not another because it undermines your own belief is deception and when someone tries to be deceptive they're basically insulting you by attempting to make a fool out of you. They think you're stupid.

If this hack had been a guy and tried to make a fool out of me in person I'd D'arce choke the fag.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wz62NL2JtM

[Grace O'Malley]

I thought Celts lived pretty much all over Western Europe?

Yes they did but the people recognised as proto-Celts e.g. Unetice and before them Bell Beaker spread from Central Europe up the Rhine. Celts were more dominant in certain areas than others.

In the Irish DNA Atlas they are denoting Celts with Northwestern France as this appears high in all the Celtic groups of Britain and Ireland.

In addition to the population structure found within Ireland, we have demonstrated that Ireland has a distinct ancestry profile in our regression-based admixture analysis. We identify a high level of France-like ancestry being driven by a single French cluster with high North-Western French membership. The North-West of France has previously been shown to have genetic links with Celtic populations in Britain23. Therefore the large signal we observe within Ireland could reflect Ireland as a ‘sink’ of Celtic ancestry, considering its isolation compared to other British Celtic groups. Considering the links from north-west France to other Celtic populations23, we do not interpret this as a ‘Norman’ signal.The ancestry profiles also consists of a surprising level of Norwegian related ancestry, especially considering previous attempts to detect ‘Norse Viking’ admixture into Ireland have been inconclusive14. Ireland presents the second highest amount of Norwegian ancestry in our analysis after Orkney, where Norse Viking admixture is a well-described feature21,33,34. All areas traditionally associated with Norse Viking activity (Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney) present relatively high levels of Norwegian-like ancestry. A ‘Norse Viking’ admixture event is further supported by our Globetrotter analysis, which detected significant admixture events into Ireland. This introduced a Norwegian/Scandinavian component corresponding with the time of historical Viking activity in Ireland. Furthermore, the Norwegian individuals that contribute this ancestry to Irish clusters are predominantly from areas in Norway where Norse Viking activity is known to originate from8,28. The effect of the Norse Vikings on the genetic landscape of Ireland seems to be shared across Ireland, and not limited to regions of Norse settlement, e.g. Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, and Dublin8. This suggests any structure that we are detecting in Ireland post-dates the introgression of this Norwegian-like ancestry. Alternatively the structure could be old and persistent, with a lack of strong genetic barriers resulting in a gradual homogenisation of Norse ancestry within modern Ireland. Whilst a proportion of the elevated Norwegian ancestry within Ireland could be due to Irish haplotypes in our modern Norwegian sample, our Globetrotter results suggest this is not the primary cause. This component could have been introduced by Vikings who were genetically Norwegian in ancestry, or individuals with mixed Scottish and Norwegian ancestry. If the latter is the case, this would explain our Globetrotter date estimates, which generally fall before the beginning of the Viking period in Ireland. Scottish haplotypes in the admixing source into Ireland would lower any admixture date estimate. This is likely, considering the low, but constant, level of gene flow expected across Ireland and Scotland prior to the Viking admixture. This hypothesis would also support the noisy and relatively shallow admixture signal we detect in the Globetrotter joint probability curves. A portion of this Norwegian-like ancestry could originate from a later, but smaller, admixture event due to Norman settlers into Ireland. However the Globetrotter date estimates disagree with this as the primary source of Norwegian admixture.

[JohnSmith]

Yes they did but the people recognised as proto-Celts e.g. Unetice and before them Bell Beaker spread from Central Europe up the Rhine. Celts were more dominant in certain areas than others.

In the Irish DNA Atlas they are denoting Celts with Northwestern France as this appears high in all the Celtic groups of Britain and Ireland.

In addition to the population structure found within Ireland, we have demonstrated that Ireland has a distinct ancestry profile in our regression-based admixture analysis. We identify a high level of France-like ancestry being driven by a single French cluster with high North-Western French membership. The North-West of France has previously been shown to have genetic links with Celtic populations in Britain23. Therefore the large signal we observe within Ireland could reflect Ireland as a ‘sink’ of Celtic ancestry, considering its isolation compared to other British Celtic groups. Considering the links from north-west France to other Celtic populations23, we do not interpret this as a ‘Norman’ signal.The ancestry profiles also consists of a surprising level of Norwegian related ancestry, especially considering previous attempts to detect ‘Norse Viking’ admixture into Ireland have been inconclusive14. Ireland presents the second highest amount of Norwegian ancestry in our analysis after Orkney, where Norse Viking admixture is a well-described feature21,33,34. All areas traditionally associated with Norse Viking activity (Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney) present relatively high levels of Norwegian-like ancestry. A ‘Norse Viking’ admixture event is further supported by our Globetrotter analysis, which detected significant admixture events into Ireland. This introduced a Norwegian/Scandinavian component corresponding with the time of historical Viking activity in Ireland. Furthermore, the Norwegian individuals that contribute this ancestry to Irish clusters are predominantly from areas in Norway where Norse Viking activity is known to originate from8,28. The effect of the Norse Vikings on the genetic landscape of Ireland seems to be shared across Ireland, and not limited to regions of Norse settlement, e.g. Limerick, Waterford, Wexford, and Dublin8. This suggests any structure that we are detecting in Ireland post-dates the introgression of this Norwegian-like ancestry. Alternatively the structure could be old and persistent, with a lack of strong genetic barriers resulting in a gradual homogenisation of Norse ancestry within modern Ireland. Whilst a proportion of the elevated Norwegian ancestry within Ireland could be due to Irish haplotypes in our modern Norwegian sample, our Globetrotter results suggest this is not the primary cause. This component could have been introduced by Vikings who were genetically Norwegian in ancestry, or individuals with mixed Scottish and Norwegian ancestry. If the latter is the case, this would explain our Globetrotter date estimates, which generally fall before the beginning of the Viking period in Ireland. Scottish haplotypes in the admixing source into Ireland would lower any admixture date estimate. This is likely, considering the low, but constant, level of gene flow expected across Ireland and Scotland prior to the Viking admixture. This hypothesis would also support the noisy and relatively shallow admixture signal we detect in the Globetrotter joint probability curves. A portion of this Norwegian-like ancestry could originate from a later, but smaller, admixture event due to Norman settlers into Ireland. However the Globetrotter date estimates disagree with this as the primary source of Norwegian admixture.

But this is pretty much talking about Northwestern France and Britain,, that is a given, already know that ,, what about other areas of Europe that Celts lived.

[Grace O'Malley]

But this is pretty much talking about Northwestern France and Britain,, that is a given, already know that ,, what about other areas of Europe that Celts lived.

Can you specify more clearly what you mean? The Celtic signal in a lot of Europe is fairly low due to later people coming in. It would be interesting to see what comes up in places like Bavaria which were known to be Celtic. They need more of these finescale studies done in the rest of Europe.

The places now that still speak Celtic appear to have a strong genetic connection so I would presume people would find this interesting?

They really need to look at more ancient genomes to see what admixture these comprise of. People have changed a bit especially in certain areas of Europe judging by comparison to ancient genomes. Some more isolated populations can retain an older genetic signal.

[JohnSmith]

Can you specify more clearly what you mean? The Celtic signal in a lot of Europe is fairly low due to later people coming in. It would be interesting to see what comes up in places like Bavaria which were known to be Celtic. They need more of these finescale studies done in the rest of Europe.

The places now that still speak Celtic appear to have a strong genetic connection so I would presume people would find this interesting?

If you had a map of where they lived in Europe that would be useful. I heard they lived all over the place. Most people are aware of the connection in Northwest Europe, it would be interesting to see were else they lived. I know during the Roman Empire they had a presence in many areas.

[Grace O'Malley]

If you had a map of where they lived in Europe that would be useful. I heard they lived all over the place. Most people are aware of the connection in Northwest Europe, it would be interesting to see were else they lived. I know during the Roman Empire they had a presence in many areas.

Well that's easy to find. This one pops up first.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Celtic_expansion_in_Europe.png

The ones that went to Turkey were Gaulish and led by Brennus initially but split off as he went on to Greece. I doubt you'll find much evidence of them there now however.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatians_(people)

[Grace O'Malley]

One thing I've never forgotten about the Celts was that they feared the sky would fall on them. I think I read it in one of Barry Cunliffe's books. Here is another source.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2v1r9m9.jpg

[Dick]

One thing I've never forgotten about the Celts was that they feared the sky would fall on them.

Chicken Little said, "Some of it fell on my tail." Henny Penny said, "The sky is falling, Turkey Lurkey."

[Diocleatian204]

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.

A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles.

"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.

"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided nation."

Origins of Britons

Oisin

Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.

Wodan

Second most common clan arrived from Denmark during Viking invasions in the 9th century.

Sigurd

Descended from Viking invaders who settled in the British Isles from AD 793. One of the most common clans in the Shetland Isles, and areas of north and west Scotland.

Eshu

The wave of Oisin immigration was joined by the Eshu clan, which has roots in Africa. Eshu descendants are primarily found in coastal areas.

Re

A second wave of arrivals which came from the Middle East. The Re were farmers who spread westwards across Europe.

Roman

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were forbidden from marrying locally.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/celts-descended-from-spanish-fishermen-study-finds-416727.html

Celts were actually originated from What is now Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Celts were actually originated from What is now Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

The OP is quoting an older article which has been debunked. It was done on ydna and is about 11 years old. A lot of water under the bridge since that article was posted.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.

A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.

The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.

People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."

Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.

Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.

The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.

These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles.

"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.

"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided nation."

Origins of Britons

Oisin

Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.

Wodan

Second most common clan arrived from Denmark during Viking invasions in the 9th century.

Sigurd

Descended from Viking invaders who settled in the British Isles from AD 793. One of the most common clans in the Shetland Isles, and areas of north and west Scotland.

Eshu

The wave of Oisin immigration was joined by the Eshu clan, which has roots in Africa. Eshu descendants are primarily found in coastal areas.

Re

A second wave of arrivals which came from the Middle East. The Re were farmers who spread westwards across Europe.

Roman

Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were forbidden from marrying locally.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/celts-descended-from-spanish-fishermen-study-finds-416727.html

The brits descend from ancient celtiberians(basques/catalans)Its important we specify because the ancestors of the brits and irish have enemies in spain so dont think everybody in spain are like the basques and catalans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9988Uv_Gs3I&t=354s

[Grace O'Malley]

The brits descend from ancient celtiberians(basques/catalans)Its important we specify because the ancestors of the brits and irish have enemies in spain so dont think everybody in spain are like the basques and catalans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9988Uv_Gs3I&t=354s

That's old stuff BarcelonaAtlantis. The latest studies on both the British (PoBI) and the Irish (IDA) are autosomal studies and the most comprehensive and up-to-date. You might want to brush up a bit on these instead of posting genetics from over a decade ago before they even realised R1b-M269 wasn't even in Europe until the Bronze Age. We all are just after the truth one would hope.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Chicken Little said, "Some of it fell on my tail." Henny Penny said, "The sky is falling, Turkey Lurkey."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HR9vqx9oTQ

[Fractal]

So that's why I like tacos and burriots so much!


lol.

[Fractal]

One thing I've never forgotten about the Celts was that they feared the sky would fall on them. I think I read it in one of Barry Cunliffe's books. Here is another source.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2v1r9m9.jpg

So did they or did they not come from Iberia?

[Grace O'Malley]

So did they or did they not come from Iberia?

They originated in Central Europe which is also obvious looking at the language. Celtic developed with Italic when Celtic and Italic broke off Celtic language influenced Proto-Germanic as Proto-Germanic has some Celtic loan words. Celtic and Italic must have broken off before this occurred. There is also the genetics. Unetice is proto-Celtic as well as Urnfield. People like the modern Irish are very similar to Bell Beaker and Unetice so their genetics have not changed that much most likely due to isolation. Latest dna studies show the Irish as basically an admixture of Northwestern French and West Norwegians.

Spanish did have Celts but they mixed with the pre-existing population which explains why Spanish don't cluster with Northern Europeans. Celts didn't originate there.

Someone else could add to this or put their spin on it but everyone knows Celts originated in Central Europe.

That's just the facts of the situation. They didn't originate in Ireland either.

[Token]

Is that an error (bolded)? Because genetics doesn't bear this out. If Bronze Age people spread from Iberia to the British Isles than why are the British Isles so much higher in Yamnaya and also having a majority different subclade. I might be interpreting you wrongly but that looks fairly clear what you have stated.

They did spread to Iberia. The DF27 subclade was found in a Beaker individual and this Central group was probably the one who invaded Iberia during the Bronze Age. Also, RISE563 had the U152 'Italic' subclade, suggesting that they were the ones responsible for the first steppe introgression in the peninsula, and this goes side by side with the Italo-Celtic hypothesis, which was probably spoken by a early single Beaker group that later divided and developed in different ethnolinguistic branches, and the Celtic one could have been developed in the Atlantic shores during the Atlantic Bronze Age complex. Saying that British Isles have 'much higher' Yamnaya ancestry is exaggerating the situation, English people have ~9% more than Northern Spanish and Scottish around 15%, if this is 'much more' for you then fine, and you need to consider that later invasions augmented these percentages, both in Iberia and in the British Isles.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

The clan macgregor whose motto is "royal is my race"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Gregor) also know the basques are the pictish kings and the macgregors were persecuted because the imposters know the macgregors are descended from the pictish kings http://hal_macgregor.tripod.com/gregor/Chronicles.html

[Grace O'Malley]

They did spread to Iberia. The DF27 subclade was found in a Beaker individual and this Central group was probably the one who invaded Iberia during the Bronze Age. Also, RISE563 had the U152 'Italic' subclade, suggesting that they were the ones responsible for the first steppe introgression in the peninsula, and this goes side by side with the Italo-Celtic hypothesis, which was probably spoken by a early single Beaker group that later divided and developed in different ethnolinguistic branches, and the Celtic one could have been developed in the Atlantic shores during the Atlantic Bronze Age complex. Saying that British Isles have 'much higher' Yamnaya ancestry is exaggerating the situation, English people have ~9% more than Northern Spanish and Scottish around 15%, if this is 'much more' for you then fine, and you need to consider that later invasions augmented these percentages, both in Iberia and in the British Isles.

This is what all the genetic reports say not what I've said personally. It is in this report.

Consistent with this, when comparing Portuguese Neolithic to Bronze Age samples, the former presented an excess of haplotype donation to Sardinian and Spanish (p = 0.017). Northern/eastern ancestry is evident in the Bronze Age, with significantly increased enrichment in Chuvash, Orcadian (p = 0.017), Lezgin and Irish (p = 0.033). However, this shift from southern to northern affinity is markedly weaker than that observed between Neolithic and Bronze Age genomes in Ireland, Scandinavia, Hungary and Central Europe. These findings suggest detectable, but comparatively modest, Steppe-related introgression present at the Portuguese Bronze Age.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852

It is also obvious on dna cluster maps.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

The norse/nazis/fake germanics(teamed up on the sly with the jews but publicly they pretend to be enemies so that the jews can play the celts role as hebrews and as victims to help the jews with this farce) enslaved the celts and hid the irish,scots,welsh and celtic english people real origin and identity.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ftjxEomAPo&t=3s

[Token]

This is what all the genetic reports say not what I've said personally. It is in this report.

Consistent with this, when comparing Portuguese Neolithic to Bronze Age samples, the former presented an excess of haplotype donation to Sardinian and Spanish (p = 0.017). Northern/eastern ancestry is evident in the Bronze Age, with significantly increased enrichment in Chuvash, Orcadian (p = 0.017), Lezgin and Irish (p = 0.033). However, this shift from southern to northern affinity is markedly weaker than that observed between Neolithic and Bronze Age genomes in Ireland, Scandinavia, Hungary and Central Europe. These findings suggest detectable, but comparatively modest, Steppe-related introgression present at the Portuguese Bronze Age.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852

It is also obvious on dna cluster maps.

Portuguese Bronze Age, not modern western Iberians. The peninsula continued receiving more and more migrations from Central and Northern Europe while the British Isles, on the other hand, experienced a ressurgence of EEF and WHG ancestry, at least in England, and this can explain why the gap of Yamnaya ancestry between northern-western Iberians and British Isles was significantly reduced. This plot map from Unterlander et al puts Yamnaya at the top of two intersecting lines and, as you can see, the Steppe-shift in Basques and Northern Iberians is comparable to French, and English is not so far away like you think it is.

https://images.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/ncomms14615-f6.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Portuguese Bronze Age, not modern western Iberians. The peninsula continued receiving more and more migrations from Central and Northern Europe while the British Isles, on the other hand, experienced a ressurgence of EEF and WHG ancestry, at least in England, and this can explain why the gap of Yamnaya ancestry between northern-western Iberians and British Isles was significantly reduced. This plot map from Unterlander et al puts Yamnaya at the top of two intersecting lines and, as you can see, the Steppe-shift in Basques and Northern Iberians is comparable to French, and English is not so far away like you think it is.

https://images.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/ncomms14615-f6.jpg

Then why do modern populations cluster like this? If Spanish / Portuguese had a lot more Steppe they would cluster with Northern Europeans.

http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png

[JohnSmith]

Then why do modern populations cluster like this? If Spanish / Portuguese had a lot more Steppe they would cluster with Northern Europeans.

http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png
I know people focus on the North to South Clustering. But the West to East is also interesting. It looks like the clusters match the map of Europe in some regards. All the clusters look relatively close except where you see natural barriers. I really am not well versed in genetics but what is the criteria being used for this map? Is it DNA?

[Token]

Then why do modern populations cluster like this? If Spanish / Portuguese had a lot more Steppe they would cluster with Northern Europeans.

http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png

Compared to others Southern Europeans, Northern Iberians have the highest levels of Yamnaya but, even if quite close to French, they still have less steppe ancestry than them and others Central and Northern Europeans. They also have less WHG, higher Neolithic and residual ENF-like percentages, which shifts them to the south. By the way, the position of Iberians makes perfect sense, and they also show a consistent overlap with Southern French, who actually have pretty high Yamnaya levels.

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u431/ArchHades/Genetic%20maps%20and%20distance%20tables/Haak3wayadmixtureratio.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

I know people focus on the North to South Clustering. But the West to East is also interesting. It looks like the clusters match the map of Europe in some regards. All the clusters look relatively close except where you see natural barriers. I really am not well versed in genetics but what is the criteria being used for this map? Is it DNA?

It's the Novembre plot and was done as a scientific study. It's done using autosomal dna. There is more a gap between southern Europeans than Northern Europeans. So the main gap in Europe is North/South not West/East as has been stated many times.

Here's another scientific study on 5 populations. Countries are Ireland (red), Scotland (green), Sweden (blue), Portugal (light blue), Bulgaria (black).

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/euro51.png

[JohnSmith]

It's the Novembre plot and was done as a scientific study. It's done using autosomal dna. There is more a gap between southern Europeans than Northern Europeans. So the main gap in Europe is North/South not West/East as has been stated many times.

Here's another scientific study on 5 populations. Countries are Ireland (red), Scotland (green), Sweden (blue), Portugal (light blue), Bulgaria (black).

https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/euro51.png

I know that as it is obvious. I said it is probably do to natural barriers, which makes that interesting. The West the East also has some skews. The Alps has certainly acted as a barrier it looks like. I do not know enough about these factors but I am see the clusters.

[Damião de Góis]

It's the Novembre plot and was done as a scientific study. It's done using autosomal dna. There is more a gap between southern Europeans than Northern Europeans. So the main gap in Europe is North/South not West/East as has been stated many times.


It depends on the populations used. If it was Finland instead of Sweden it would probably show a bigger gap in the north.

But i'm not sure.

[Sebastianus Rex]

It depends on the populations used. If it was Finland instead of Sweden it would probably show a bigger gap in the north.

But i'm not sure.

Exactly, here people seem to forget that Europe ends at the Ural mountains. In terms of anthropological/cranial patterns the East-West gap is more accentuated.

[JohnSmith]

Exactly, here people seem to forget that Europe ends at the Ural mountains. In terms of anthropological/cranial patterns the East-West gap is more accentuated.

Many people ignore things that do not support their agenda or propaganda. Stating the obvious is not really that interesting to me. Seeing things that are less obvious are more interesting as it raises more questions.

[Grace O'Malley]

Exactly, here people seem to forget that Europe ends at the Ural mountains. In terms of anthropological/cranial patterns the East-West gap is more accentuated.

It is a fact that the largest genetic differences in Europe are between North and South. Razib Khan even mentions it here.

"This confirms previous findings that the largest component of variation in Europe is north-south (at least evaluating to the west of a particular geographical cutoff), with a secondary east-west dimension. "

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/genetic-differences-within-european-populations/#.Wjmydt_XbIU

https://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Genes-mirror-geography-for-Europeans.jpg

It is evident for even novices looking at Gedmatch calculators and distances. You can do it yourself and see.

Outliers in Europe are of course Finland and to a certain degree Italy. But looking at any European cluster map will show how some areas form large clusters whereas other areas are more distinct.

This is just a detached observation that anyone can make.

[Grace O'Malley]

Many people ignore things that do not support their agenda or propaganda. Stating the obvious is not really that interesting to me. Seeing things that are less obvious are more interesting as it raises more questions.

People make observations based on knowledge. You yourself said you don't know much about genetics. You can't make many deductions if you don't have any knowledge otherwise you are making statements that are biased. Wouldn't you agree?

[JohnSmith]

It is a fact that the largest genetic differences in Europe are between North and South. Razib Khan even mentions it here.

"This confirms previous findings that the largest component of variation in Europe is north-south (at least evaluating to the west of a particular geographical cutoff), with a secondary east-west dimension. "

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/genetic-differences-within-european-populations/#.Wjmydt_XbIU

https://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Genes-mirror-geography-for-Europeans.jpg

It is evident for even novices looking at Gedmatch calculators and distances. You can do it yourself and see.

Outliers in Europe are of course Finland and to a certain degree Italy. But looking at any European cluster map will show how some areas form large clusters whereas other areas are more distinct.

This is just a detached observation that anyone can make.

I think all of it is interesting,, East, West, North and South.

[JohnSmith]

People make observations based on knowledge. You yourself said you don't know much about genetics. You can't make many deductions if you don't have any knowledge otherwise you are making statements that are biased. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, I admit I do not know enough about it. I do think it is interesting. It is also interesting how similar creatures can be in genetics but looks so different also. Like they say we are 98% same genetics as Chimps. However, we look so different from each other.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think all of it is interesting,, East, West, North and South.

Don't most people? There are many interesting observations that people can make. Certain populations are more contained and have less crossover with others. This is most likely due to physical barriers in the past. Mountains are more a barrier than the water for instance.

[JohnSmith]

Don't most people? There are many interesting observations that people can make. Certain populations are more contained and have less crossover with others. This is most likely due to physical barriers in the past. Mountains are more a barrier than the water for instance.

Yes mountains are a significant barrier to overcome maybe more so than water for some.

I think those areas might of development somewhat independently from others due to the barriers like mountains.

[Lluna Plena]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhQdggHWAco

[Sebastianus Rex]

It is a fact that the largest genetic differences in Europe are between North and South. Razib Khan even mentions it here.

"This confirms previous findings that the largest component of variation in Europe is north-south (at least evaluating to the west of a particular geographical cutoff), with a secondary east-west dimension. "

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/genetic-differences-within-european-populations/#.Wjmydt_XbIU

https://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Genes-mirror-geography-for-Europeans.jpg

It is evident for even novices looking at Gedmatch calculators and distances. You can do it yourself and see.

Outliers in Europe are of course Finland and to a certain degree Italy. But looking at any European cluster map will show how some areas form large clusters whereas other areas are more distinct.

This is just a detached observation that anyone can make.

Fallacious. That could be only the case if you consider southern Italian/Sicilian population (wich are kind of genetic outliers since their genetic composition approach alot Levantine/middle-eastern populations), and exclude some populational groups that live in Russia (wich are even more genetic ouliers since they are partly mongoloid).

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V3.png


PS. By the way those maps you've been posting are very outaded, unaccurate and biased since they don't include Uralic populations, I repeat once more Europe ends at the Ural mountains wich is 2000km past the western Russian border.

[JohnSmith]

Fallacious. That could be only the case if you consider southern Italian/Sicilian population wich are kind of genetic outliers since their genetic composition approach alot Levantine/middle-eastern populations, if you exclude them the east-west gap is more accentuated...and even more if we take in consideration certain population groups in Russia that are genetic outliers also (partly mongoloid).

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V3.png

The fact that Italy has mountains that isolate it also matters I think. This idea that Southern and Northern Italian are so different is just not something that is really true. They generally look alike, Southern Italians are very diverse. The genetics is just one factor.

[Grace O'Malley]

Fallacious. That could be only the case if you consider southern Italian/Sicilian population (wich are kind of genetic outliers since their genetic composition approach alot Levantine/middle-eastern populations), and exclude some populational groups that live in Russia (wich are even more genetic ouliers since they are partly mongoloid).

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V3.png


PS. By the way those maps you've been posting are very outaded, unaccurate and biased since they don't include Uralic populations, I repeat once more Europe ends at the Ural mountains wich is 2000km past the western Russian border.

Says who? They are not outdated and are from scientific studies. The ones you are posting are from Eurogenes. The reason why I posted those maps is I can link the scientific papers and the Novembre plot was used on presentations on the Irish DNA Atlas by scientists and geneticists.

Why would they be biased? I've never heard anyone says that before. :) I would rather post scientific papers to back up what I say. I always use proof otherwise people can just say whatever they fancy according to their biases. While I like Eurogenes maps they are based on calculators and not looking at admixture, snps etc. Scientific studies are done according to strict criteria and are peer reviewed. The maps I posted don't show anything different as to where people plot.

So what evidence do you present for the maps from scientific papers being "inaccurate and biased"?

I only post information from what I've read and use quotes. If I express my own opinion I will say this. People should supply evidence if they can to support what they say. This forum is full of inaccuracies.

Even using Gedmatch calculators you can check distances. For example all Northwestern Europeans are very close which can also been seen on any cluster map. Some people have some biases and fetishes about being "Celtic" or being "Germanic". I just want facts and evidence and this is what I go with.

[JohnSmith]

Says who? They are not outdated and are from scientific studies. The ones you are posting are from Eurogenes. The reason why I posted those maps is I can link the scientific papers and the Novembre plot was used on presentations on the Irish DNA Atlas by scientists and geneticists.

Why would they be biased? I've never heard anyone says that before. :) I would rather post scientific papers to back up what I say. I always use proof otherwise people can just say whatever they fancy according to their biases. While I like Eurogenes maps they are based on calculators and not looking at admixture, snps etc. Scientific studies are done according to strict criteria and are peer reviewed. The maps I posted don't show anything different as to where people plot.

So what evidence do you present for the maps from scientific papers being "inaccurate and biased"?

I only post information from what I've read and use quotes. If I express my own opinion I will say this. People should supply evidence if they can to support what they say. This forum is full of inaccuracies.

Even using Gedmatch calculators you can check distances. For example all Northwestern Europeans are very close which can also been seen on any cluster map. Some people have some biases and fetishes about being "Celtic" or being "Germanic". I just want facts and evidence and this is what I go with.

The different populations seem to plot on map like the continent of Europe, which is expected. There are some outliers but overall the clusters plot where the countries generally would be located on a map. Genetics is one of those things that is interesting also because they say we are 98% similar to Chimps, however, we look so different. I would have to assume the European genetic distances must be rather small.

[Grace O'Malley]

The different populations seem to plot on map like the continent of Europe, which is expected. There are some outliers but overall the clusters plot where the countries generally would be located on a map. Genetics is one of those things that is interesting also because they say we are 98% similar to Chimps, however, we look so different. I would have to assume the European genetic distances must be rather small.

We are discussing population genetics here in a human context. That is a large part of what happens on this Forum. Populations plot according to their geographic position and close to their neighbours because they share more genetics with their neighbours. If a population plotted outside of their geographic location it could be due to drift or more recent admixture. I'm sure we share a lot of genetics with every living thing on this planet but that's not the context we are discussing on this thread.

[Longobarda]

No one likes a dishonest person. You intentionally edited out the following:



This is why you didn't post a link. You didn't want people to see you manipulated the text.

There should be a rule added to the forum to ban people who manipulate quotes from any outside text for their agenda.

Shame.

Whom we are talking about? Spain and not Italy

[Longobarda]

Integrity is hard to find these days.

first of all, we were talking about SPAIN (which is the triumphal subject of this thread) and not Italy. Second: in Italy we have PLENTY traces of celtic culture and not FEW like in Spain. This is why I took it away. If you want I can post all the celtic artefacts, villages etc. they have found in Italy, but I don't recommend you to ask for it, unless I would fill all the thread of images.

[Longobarda]

The fact that Italy has mountains that isolate it also matters I think. This idea that Southern and Northern Italian are so different is just not something that is really true. They generally look alike, Southern Italians are very diverse. The genetics is just one factor.

I don't think that the Alps being a natural barrier had anything to do with being isolated. If you study italian history you will see that since ancient times we have had "invasions" from multiple and different hordes or tribes. In more recent times, to many of them we have to thank for destroying Rome plenty times.
I can make a list of those who entered Italy either from the many Alpine passes or from western coasts free of mountains (like Liguria). Being isolated is a bullshit, and by the way the Alps are not the only natural barrier in Europe (Pirenees are others, just as an example). That did not avoid people moving in.

[Cristiano viejo]

first of all, we were talking about SPAIN (which is the triumphal subject of this thread) and not Italy. Second: in Italy we have PLENTY traces of celtic culture and not FEW like in Spain. This is why I took it away. If you want I can post all the celtic artefacts, villages etc. they have found in Italy, but I don't recommend you to ask for it, unless I would fill all the thread of images.

hahaha

[Profileid]

Why do Iberian wogs wanna be celtic so bad?

[Cristiano viejo]

Why do Iberian wogs wanna be celtic so bad?

For the same reason than American fat wogs wanna be German so bad.

[Grace O'Malley]

Why do Iberian wogs wanna be celtic so bad?

Iberians do have Celtic ancestry. I do think they ignore their other influences though. They aren't more Celtic than Bavarians or other Europeans. I do think Spanish people on here are trolled. I really think the trolling on here affects serious discussion. It would be great if there was less trolling on here and more serious discussion.

"Celtic" is a bit iffy as far as genetics are concerned. The Celtic Fringe in Britain, Ireland and Brittany are the last remnants of Celtic speaking population and they have a very strong genetic connection. I'm honesty not sure if this is specifically Insular Celtic or if they are the last remnants of the Celts. We really need more ancient genomes to establish if modern Celtic populations are the same as ancient Celtic populations. I'm sure there is admixture going on and I am open minded. I've put a lot of my preconceived ideas behind in the past. I really think we should follow where genetics takes us because I'm a great advocate of science.

[Profileid]

Iberians do have Celtic ancestry. I do think they ignore their other influences though. They aren't more Celtic than Bavarians or other Europeans. I do think Spanish people on here are trolled. I really think the trolling on here affects serious discussion. It would be great if there was less trolling on here and more serious discussion.

"Celtic" is a bit iffy as far as genetics are concerned. The Celtic Fringe in Britain, Ireland and Brittany are the last remnants of Celtic speaking population and they have a very strong genetic connection. I'm honesty not sure if this is specifically Insular Celtic or if they are the last remnants of the Celts. We really need more ancient genomes to establish if modern Celtic populations are the same as ancient Celtic populations. I'm sure there is admixture going on and I am open minded. I've put a lot of my preconceived ideas behind in the past. I really think we should follow where genetics takes us because I'm a great advocate of science.

There is ancestry but it's slight and quite ancient. If the Celtic ancestry of the Iberians was as strong as they push, you would see them plot closely with British Islanders,but they don't. I think both of us are closer to just about every euro population on calculators before iberians

For the same reason than American fat wogs wanna be German so bad.
Does your Iberian brain not remember my 23andme results?

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

first of all, we were talking about SPAIN (which is the triumphal subject of this thread) and not Italy. Second: in Italy we have PLENTY traces of celtic culture and not FEW like in Spain. This is why I took it away. If you want I can post all the celtic artefacts, villages etc. they have found in Italy, but I don't recommend you to ask for it, unless I would fill all the thread of images.

No, you don't. Your own source states that it doesn't. Remember the source you didn't link because you didn't want people to see you manipulated the text to hide there is very little evidence in Italy?

Please fill the thread with such images. Humor us all.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

No one likes a dishonest person. You intentionally edited out the following:



This is why you didn't post a link. You didn't want people to see you manipulated the text.

There should be a rule added to the forum to ban people who manipulate quotes from any outside text for their agenda.

Shame.

Why do you not address this, Longobarda?

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Whom we are talking about? Spain and not Italy

You can't edit out words from a text because you don't like that it undermines your own belief. You're a dishonest person and not a very bright one, either. You ironically TU a post by Grace that points at a strong genetic distance between north and southern Europe (that shows Italy to be something of an outlier). Do I need to point out how that undermines your own belief? So what we have here is you using a source for your argument that also undermines your own belief and showing support of another source that undermines your own belief and yet you still have gone on in this thread about there being so much evidence of you being an Italian Celtic queen.

And how idiotic that you say this thread isn't about Italy and Celts to me as an argument on why you shamefully manipulated your own source and yet you're talking about Italy and Celts in this thread as well. The population genetic evidence (which you apparently have no issue with now but did in the past when I pointed it out) shows the Alps was a strong barrier. It's actually a stronger barrier than the Pyrenees; that's what the population genetic evidence shows. Armies cross over mountains because there is an incentive to do so. An entire large community that has the numbers to replace a native population on the other side wouldn't be able. They'd be too small to have a significant genetic impact. They are eventually absorbed by the whole.

You clearly don't understand the subject matter if you don't even know that a post you thumb up undermines the core of your own belief.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

There is ancestry but it's slight and quite ancient. If the Celtic ancestry of the Iberians was as strong as they push, you would see them plot closely with British Islanders,but they don't. I think both of us are closer to just about every euro population on calculators before iberians

The argument has never been that all of Iberia is Celtic influenced. I don't know why people on this forum keep thinking when Celts in Iberia are being discussed it means the entire population. That has never been said. The Romans viewed northern Spaniards (except for eastern Spain and the Basque lands) as Celti-Iberians: in other words a blend of Celts and Iberians. If this is incorrect genetically that it no fault of modern day Spaniards and Portuguese. They're simply referring back to ancient texts.


Crossing over the Idubeda Mountain, you are at once in Celtiberia, a large and uneven country. The greater part of it in fact is rugged and river-washed; for it is through these regions that the Anas flows, and also the Tagus, and the several rivers next to them, which, rising in Celtiberia, flow down to the western sea. Among these are the Durius, which flows past Numantia and Serguntia, and the Baetis, which, rising in the Orospeda, flows through Oretania into Baetica. Now, in the first place, the parts to the north of the Celtiberians are the home of the Veronians, neighbours of the Cantabrian Coniscans, and they too106 have their origin in the Celtic expedition; they have a city, Varia, situated at the crossing of the Iberus; and their p103 territory also runs contiguous to that of the Bardyetans, whom the men of to‑day call Bardulians. Secondly, the parts on the western side are the home of some of the Asturians, Callaicans, and Vaccaeans, and also of the Vettonians and Carpetanians. Thirdly, the southern parts are the home, not only the Oretanians, but of all other tribes of those Bastetanians and Edetanians that live on the Orospeda. And fourthly, on the east lies the Idubeda.

13 Again, of the four divisions into which the Celtiberians have been separated, the most powerful, generally speaking, are the Arvacans, who live on the east and south, where their territory joins Carpetania and the sources of the Tagus; and they have a city of very great renown, Numantia. They gave proof of their valour in the Celtiberian War against the Romans, which lasted for twenty years; indeed, many armies, officers and all, were destroyed by them, and at the last the Numantians, when besieged, endured till death, except a few who surrendered the fortress. The Lusonians, likewise, live in the east, and their territory, too, joins the sources of the Tagus. The cities of Segeda and Pallantia both belong to the Arvacans. The distance of Numantia from Caesar Augusta, which latter, as I was saying, is situated on the Iberus, is as much as eight hundred stadia. The cities of Segobriga and Bilbilis both belong to the Celtiberians, and it is near these cities that Metellus and Sertorius had their war. Polybius, in detailing the tribes and districts of the Vaccaeans and Celtiberians, includes with the rest of the cities both Segesama and Intercatia. Poseidonius says that p105 Marcus Metellus exacted a tribute of six hundred talents from Celtiberia, from which it may be inferred that Celtiberians were rich as well as numerous, albeit the country they live in is rather poor. 163But because Polybius went on to say that Tiberius Gracchus destroyed three hundred cities in Celtiberia, Poseidonius makes fun of him, saying that the man did this merely to gratify Gracchus, for he called the towers cities just as they do in the triumphal processions. And perhaps this remark of Poseidonius is not to be discredited, for not only generals but historians as well are easily led to indulge in such falsification as this, in trying to embellish the deeds they describe. In fact, even those who assert that there are more than one thousand cities in Iberia seem to me to be led to do so by calling the big villages cities; for, in the first place, the country is naturally not capable, on account of the poverty of its soil or else on account of the remoteness or wildness of it, of containing many cities, and, secondly, the modes of life and the activities of the inhabitants (apart from those who live on the seaboard of Our Sea) do not suggest anything of the kind; for those who live in villages are wild (and such are most of the Iberians), and even the cities themselves cannot easily tame their inhabitants when these are outnumbered by the folk that live in the forests for the purpose of working mischief upon their neighbours.

14 Next after the Celtiberians, on the south, are the people who live in the Orospeda Mountain and in the country round about the Sucro River, namely, the Edetanians, who extend as far as New Carthage; and then the Bastetanians and the Oretanians, who extend almost as far as Malaca.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/3D*.html



I get a bit tired of people pretending that a belief that northern Spaniards (not all Spaniards) are partially descended from Celts is simply made up from no where. As if one day Spaniards and Portuguese came together and decided on it. If all you have to go by is the ancient texts, then that's what naturally people go by.

Personally, I believe in cultural diffusion and not some wave of conquering Celts across Europe. People interact with each other and adopt what works best. It's not always by war. It's also by trade. If you know how to work iron, I have good reason to learn that skill.

[Cristiano viejo]

Iberians do have Celtic ancestry. I do think they ignore their other influences though.
False, average Spaniard ignores any influence, here people clare zero about these things.


There is ancestry but it's slight and quite ancient. If the Celtic ancestry of the Iberians was as strong as they push, you would see them plot closely with British Islanders,but they don't. I think both of us are closer to just about every euro population on calculators before iberians
This is the most stupid thing I could read. So as British dont plot closely to Spaniards I should claim their Celtic ancestry is not strong :rolleyes:


Does your Iberian brain not remember my 23andme results?
First, does your Americunt brain know that the main Spanish haplogroup is rb1 per chance? because you have claimed we dont have Celtic ancestry :whistle:

Second, ah yes, I remember your 23andme results... your Gypsy origin to be exact.

[Grace O'Malley]

False, average Spaniard ignores any influence, here people clare zero about these things.















This is the most stupid thing I could read. So as British dont plot closely to Spaniards I should claim their Celtic ancestry is not strong :rolleyes:


Who are you kidding? Let's be honest for a change. I personally agree with Colonel Frank Grimes. There is Celtic influence but there is also other influences in Spain. I do think that people like the Irish have a lot more Celtic genetics. Geneticists would agree with this and it also explains why Celtic languages are still spoken in places like Ireland and Wales. I don't think most Spanish people push this Celtic connection. It appears to be more an anthroboard phenonomen.

Lots of other countries in Europe had Celts in the past. Spanish people haven't spoken Celtic languages in a millennium. That says a lot. Parts of England were still speaking a Celtic language much later than Spain. All the present Celtic speaking nations share a close genetic connection. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade but logically this has to be addressed. Does Spain show more Celtic connections than the Czechs or Austrians? If so what are these connections? They aren't really shown by language or genetics. I think Czechs are closer to people like the Irish than Spanish. I do agree with Profileid in that British and Irish are closer to most European populations than Spanish. Of course you can say that Irish aren't Celtic but you would be in very much a minority.

IMO Spanish people have some Celtic ancestry but no more than a lot of other Europeans. They have a lot of other influences as well and that is interesting. I would welcome a study on the Spanish like the Irish DNA Atlas. I think most informed people know that Spain is not the motherland of Celts or the most Celtic place in Europe. I think most people would agree with what I've said. Anyway happy to hear your opinion on the topic as long as you don't get overly personal or defensive. :)

[Cristiano viejo]

Who are you kidding? Let's be honest for a change. I personally agree with Colonel Frank Grimes. There is Celtic influence but there is also other influences in Spain. I do think that people like the Irish have a lot more Celtic genetics. Geneticists would agree with this and it also explains why Celtic languages are still spoken in places like Ireland and Wales. I don't think most Spanish people push this Celtic connection. It appears to be more an anthroboard phenonomen.

Lots of other countries in Europe had Celts in the past. Spanish people haven't spoken Celtic languages in a millennium. That says a lot. Parts of England were still speaking a Celtic language much later than Spain. All the present Celtic speaking nations share a close genetic connection. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade but logically this has to be addressed. Does Spain show more Celtic connections than the Czechs or Austrians? If so what are these connections? They aren't really shown by language or genetics. I think Czechs are closer to people like the Irish than Spanish. I do agree with Profileid in that British and Irish are closer to most European populations than Spanish. Of course you can say that Irish aren't Celtic but you would be in very much a minority.

IMO Spanish people have some Celtic ancestry but no more than a lot of other Europeans. They have a lot of other influences as well and that is interesting. I would welcome a study on the Spanish like the Irish DNA Atlas. I think most informed people know that Spain is not the motherland of Celts or the most Celtic place in Europe. I think most people would agree with what I've said. Anyway happy to hear your opinion on the topic as long as you don't get overly personal or defensive. :)

You did not understand what I meant. I meant people here cares nothing about their ancestry. 99% of people here know nothing about our ancestry, because they dont care. Dont extrapolate the Apricity interests to the rest of world.

[Token]

So much desinformation regarding Iberians. Look how modern Basques, that don't even speak a Indo-European language, plot in relation to pre-Celtic Iberians (Iberian_MN in the plot). If you take Western Iberians, where Celtic languages were intensely present, the shift would have been even greater. Modern Iberians are basically a halfway between native Iberians and Indo-European Beakers from Central Europe (Beakers_CE), that are now thought to have spread Italo-Celtic languages. Anyway, Iberians today plot even more northern than Bronze Age Iberians, as you can see in the map, suggesting that later Hallstatt and Germanic migrations impacted the modern Iberian genepool.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/rg0WjYCn7BEWmcwHFR06FJJhgi8FiUyi_lWGMo1r5rS43MP4lv eIRrZ-Pdwt07oLRhhBg97MtjmWauc=w1600-h769-rw

[Grace O'Malley]

You did not understand what I meant. I meant people here cares nothing about their ancestry. 99% of people here know nothing about our ancestry, because they dont care. Dont extrapolate the Apricity interests to the rest of world.

But that is not an answer. Most people don't give a fig. People on these sort of forums have an interest otherwise they wouldn't have dna tests or post. Why are you on here if you don't personally care? I'm very interested in genetics. Absolutely none of my family are and if I discuss with others they only have a passing interest. I'm very interested so I have a lot more knowledge about these topics than the average person. Unfortunately there is not many people that have enough knowledge to discuss these topics even on Apricity.

Your comment is odd because we aren't discussing this with most people but on Apricity.

"Dont extrapolate the Apricity interests to the rest of world." As if I would. :) That is neither here nor there though and I would say a strawman because it is not relevant to the topic being discussed.

[Damião de Góis]

Lots of other countries in Europe had Celts in the past. Spanish people haven't spoken Celtic languages in a millennium. That says a lot. Parts of England were still speaking a Celtic language much later than Spain. All the present Celtic speaking nations share a close genetic connection. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade but logically this has to be addressed. Does Spain show more Celtic connections than the Czechs or Austrians? If so what are these connections? They aren't really shown by language or genetics. I think Czechs are closer to people like the Irish than Spanish.

This thread is, or was, supposed to be about (ancient) celts from iberia. Are you suggesting their genetic impact can be measured with distance to modern irish people? :confused:

[JohnSmith]

But that is not an answer. Most people don't give a fig. People on these sort of forums have an interest otherwise they wouldn't have dna tests or post. Why are you on here if you don't personally care? I'm very interested in genetics. Absolutely none of my family are and if I discuss with others they only have a passing interest. I'm very interested so I have a lot more knowledge about these topics than the average person. Unfortunately there is not many people that have enough knowledge to discuss these topics even on Apricity.

Your comment is odd because we aren't discussing this with most people but on Apricity.

"Dont extrapolate the Apricity interests to the rest of world." As if I would. :) That is neither here nor there though and I would say a strawman because it is not relevant to the topic being discussed.

You are taking this a bit too seriously. Honestly, he is right the vast majority really do not care that much. People care more about the breed of dog they want over human clusters.

Americans only care because we are all mixed up and it is less obvious to us what we are. Europeans it is more obvious so it is not as interesting I think.

[Grace O'Malley]

So much desinformation regarding Iberians. Look how modern Basques, that don't even speak a Indo-European language, plot in relation to pre-Celtic Iberians (Iberian_MN in the plot). If you take Western Iberians, where Celtic languages were intensely present, the shift would have been even greater. Modern Iberians are basically a halfway between native Iberians and Indo-European Beakers from Central Europe, that are now thought to have spread Italo-Celtic languages. Anyway, Iberians today plot even more northern than Bronze Age Iberians, as you can see in the map, suggesting that later Hallstatt and Germanic migrations impacted the modern Iberian genepool.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/rg0WjYCn7BEWmcwHFR06FJJhgi8FiUyi_lWGMo1r5rS43MP4lv eIRrZ-Pdwt07oLRhhBg97MtjmWauc=w1600-h769-rw

You'd need to link some studies to support what you are saying. Who is posting disinformation for starters? You come across as protesting too much. Not saying I don't think you have some valid opinions but you are pushing something which isn't supported by scientific studies. Spanish people plot where they do because they have a lot of neolithic ancestry. Are you denying this? Is there something wrong with Spanish people being Southern Europeans?

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/europevariation-752360.jpg

[Token]

Lots of other countries in Europe had Celts in the past. Spanish people haven't spoken Celtic languages in a millennium. That says a lot. Parts of England were still speaking a Celtic language much later than Spain. All the present Celtic speaking nations share a close genetic connection. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade but logically this has to be addressed. Does Spain show more Celtic connections than the Czechs or Austrians? If so what are these connections? They aren't really shown by language or genetics. I think Czechs are closer to people like the Irish than Spanish. I do agree with Profileid in that British and Irish are closer to most European populations than Spanish. Of course you can say that Irish aren't Celtic but you would be in very much a minority.

Czech do share more genetic affinity with Irish, but this is simply because Indo-Europeans were initially very closely related groups and they do have more Yamnaya-like ancestry than Iberians, but i ask you: what kind of IE population shifted the Czech gene-pool? It was certainly not Celts and you just need to look at their modern day language and ancient history. Iberians speak Romance languages due to Roman domination, but the only IE population that most impacted their genepool are the Celts during the Bronze-Iron Age period, and their language today still shows a lot of Celticisms.

[Grace O'Malley]

You are taking this a bit too seriously. Honestly, he is right the vast majority really do not care that much. People care more about the breed of dog they want over human clusters.

Americans only care because we are all mixed up and it is less obvious to us what we are. Europeans it is more obvious so it is not as interesting I think.

You're full of shit JohnSmith. You say you are Anglo Saxon and post on this forum. Why are you even here and post more than most people? I find you a tad dishonest and not very sincere. That is my honest opinion. Really I find you very hypocritical and I can point other incidences of this if you want.

I'm on a genetics and Antropology forum and I more than other's are taking this "too seriously"? Stop taking the piss JohnSmith.