Welsh firmly back Britain's Union

[Albion]

An old story, but I thought it relevant because a few people on here have wondered about it.


There is strong support for Wales remaining part of Great Britain, according to a survey for the BBC.
Nearly 70% of people in Wales said they wanted to keep the Union as it is with 20% being in favour of independence.

The BBC Wales/Newsnight poll found 48% thought Wales would lose financially by splitting from England and Scotland whilst 14% believed it would benefit.

The telephone survey marks the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union which brought the three countries together.

But 33% of respondents believed Wales' culture would be enhanced by a split, 13% thought it would be diminished.

Support for the Union was strongest in England, where 74% of those surveyed wanted to keep it.

It was weakest in Scotland but 56% of Scots still wanted to remain British, with 32% wanting independence.

The 20% in favour in favour of independence in Wales is higher than in similar previous surveys, which have tended to hover around the 10 to 15% mark.

A good majority throughout Britain thought Wales, England and Scotland would remain together for at least another 50 years.

Fifty seven per cent of people in Wales believed this to be the case.

There was also considerable support throughout Britain for the creation of an English parliament, now that Wales and Scotland have devolution.

Sixty per cent of those surveyed in England wanted their own parliament, 52% of Scots and 48% of people in Wales wanted devolution for England.

Wales was united with England in the 16th Century but the full Union was completed 300 years ago when Scotland signed an Act of Union.

The study follows claims by Welsh Secretary Peter Hain that the UK could be broken up by a coalition of Tories and nationalists.

Mr Hain said Plaid Cymru would damage Wales economically by pursuing independence while the Conservatives would harm the Union by cutting the role of Welsh MPs.

Plaid and the Conservatives have accused Mr Hain of trying to scare people into voting Labour in May's Welsh assembly election.



Source... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6263807.stm)

[Albion]

I think most Welsh people are fine with a union so long as Wales is allowed to pursue its own affairs.
Personally I want Scotland and NI to bugger off, but I don't really care about Wales, they can do as they please.

I'd prefer a totally independent England, but I doubt we'll ever get a say on that, but a high degree of devolution would be very good.
The union could probably be salvaged if England, Scotland and Wales were all given equal devolved powers with a high level of autonomy, but Westminster is doesn't seem to see this.

I'd like England to be self governing either within or outside of the UK and for Westminster to shove all this "Britishness" crap where the sun don't shine.
Britishness should be about recognising and respecting the ties that bind us across the whole British Isles, not some fake political-based identity.

[Treffie]

Mr Hain said Plaid Cymru would damage Wales economically by pursuing independence

Ha, funny. Mr Hain and his friends have been chipping away at the economy for the last 10 years. Plaid wouldn't do worse.

[Albion]

Ha, funny. Mr Hain and his friends have been chipping away at the economy for the last 10 years. Plaid wouldn't do worse.

What are your views Tref? What's opinion like in your neck of the woods and what is the reasoning like?

[Treffie]

What are your views Tref? What's opinion like in your neck of the woods and what is the reasoning like?

At this moment in time? We've got a 2 tier education system - successful Welsh language schools, religious afiliated and private schools on one side and the failing state English language schools on the other. The Senedd is failing in attracting inward investment, I think we attracted 3.5% of all inward investment to Britain in 2010 (during the 80s and 90s, it was something like 15%). If we can't run our own country with devolved powers, how on earth are we going to run an independent one? :(

[Graham]

At this moment in time? We've got a 2 tier education system - successful Welsh language schools, religious afiliated and private schools on one side and the failing state English language schools on the other. The Senedd is failing in attracting inward investment, I think we attracted 3.5% of all inward investment to Britain in 2010 (during the 80s and 90s, it was something like 15%). If we can't run our own country with devolved powers, how on earth are we going to run an independent one? :(

3.5%, Not that much dfferen't to England. I think it shows more about the Unionist Party, Labour. Compared to a Separatist party SNP. Time to bin Labour.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19610&stc=1&d=1328358542

[Treffie]

3.5%, Not that much dfferen't to England. I think it shows more about the Unionist Party, Labour. Compared to a Separatist party SNP. Time to bin Labour.



That's the thing. It'll never happen :mad:

[Gordon Bennett]

I've never bought the 'we couldn't do it' argument. My view on that subject has always been: if Luxembourg and Slovenia can do it so can we. Certainly, we need to elect a better class of politicians - away from the old Labour spend, spend, spend philosophy - but of course we could run our own country. We're not retards.

Anyway, I have a sneaking feeling that the focus of the post-Scotland union debate won't turn out to be Wales, as everyone seems to be assuming.

If Scotland goes (and it is still an if), then the United Kingdom in which we live will cease to exist. It will float away into the history books as suddenly and permanently as the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union. If England, Wales and Northern Ireland wish to remain linked by a political union, it would have to be a completely new union; with a different constitution and, yes, even a different flag. The days of Wales being treated as a province of a Greater England ended with devolution and there can be no going back.
But a continuing Anglo-Welsh union is another if. It could well be that it is the English - the modern, post-imperial English - question the point of such a union. The government of Wales (both in Cardiff and London) does spend more than it takes in taxes from Wales. So the awkward truth here in Wales is that the English do subsidise us - up to a point, anyway. As a proud Welshman - as a proud man in fact - I don't think this is fair or desireable for anyone.

Wales can be a viable state, but I think an increasing sense of English identity over the border may make any Welsh desire for independence a moot point.

[Graham]

The government of Wales (both in Cardiff and London) does spend more than it takes in taxes from Wales. So the awkward truth here in Wales is that the English do subsidise us - up to a point, anyway. As a proud Welshman - as a proud man in fact - I don't think this is fair or desireable for anyone.

Wales can be a viable state, but I think an increasing sense of English identity over the border may make any Welsh desire for independence a moot point.

Being in the UK, with the Barnett formula, creates a comfort zone. No responsibilities. It would mean you're going to spend, spend, spend. Having full fiscal control, would force people to think differently. Learn from mistakes.

Wales is devolved like Treffie says, yes. But we're still taking pocket money from London. That in my opinion, isn't a good form of devolution.

[Gordon Bennett]

Being in the UK, with the Barnett formula, creates a comfort zone. No responsibilities. It would mean you're going to spend, spend, spend. Having full fiscal control, would force people to think differently. Learn from mistakes.

Wales is devolved like Treffie says, yes. But we're still taking pocket money from London. That in my opinion, isn't a good form of devolution.

Exactly so. We're getting the best of both worlds; I can understand the growing sense of resentment that many English people feel.

I think it's important, at this point, to try and make sure this debate doesn't simply become an economic argument. It always tends to do this, principally, because the unionists think it is their strongest argument. It is not the only argument, though. For example, independence for Ireland never made economic sense, but the Irish people wanted it. The reunification of Germany in the early 1990s was always going to be a huge economic burden for West Germany, but it was what all the German people desired. The economic argument is important, but it is also important to remember that man cannot live by bread alone.

As I've said, I believe that, if there is to be no post-Scotland union, it will be an English decision, not a Welsh one. We may well end up like Belarus or Moldova: a nation that wasn't clamouring for independence, but which nevertheless had independence thrust upon it.

[Pyramidologist]

SNP want to seperate from the British union, but want to have greater connections to the EU and adopt the Euro. It makes no sense, they have no interest in preserving Scottish culture.

Here is who the SNP stand as candidates -

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xOcdlFOsr4s/S-VRsaAjbRI/AAAAAAAACwM/pwLZurOBkVY/s1600/kin8a.jpg

They love Muslims, but hate the ethnic-english. Google SNP and anglophobia and you will see a huge history.

[Argyll]

When I heard this, it took me by surprise. From the Welsh people that I know, they are clear seperatists and you always hear about the Welsh wanting independence.

[Aces High]

SNP want to seperate from the British union, but want to have greater connections to the EU and adopt the Euro.

When everyone wants to get out of the Euro they want to get in....nice move.

They should look where it got Ireland.

[Jack B]

When I heard this, it took me by surprise. From the Welsh people that I know, they are clear seperatists and you always hear about the Welsh wanting independence.

Reality's a bitch ain't it?



They should look where it got Ireland.

The enitire EU as a concept is fucked, the only difference is that Ireland unfortunately had a boom that attracted foreigners. I certainly didn't know any ordinary Irish people that saw the rewards of some bogus "Celtic Tiger" the rich got richer and opened the doors to immigration while they were at it. No more boom = less immigration and life continues as normal for the average person. The poorer the better I say, as far as conservation of a people goes it's about the best thing to have on your side (the perception at least)

[Argyll]

Reality's a bitch ain't it?

Is there a problem?

[Graham]

They love Muslims, but hate the ethnic-english. Google SNP and anglophobia and you will see a huge history.

Paranoia,slanderous and the usual predictability.

The Tory's and Labour aren't any better. The usual Tory/Labour UK Government we'll be stuck with, for the rest of our lives. Happy?

A good percentage of SNP politicians and members are English born or have English family, or English friends. English people vote the SNP up here.

Please keep up to date on Scottish issues, thank you. Because You're wrong about the Euro.

[Argyll]

Paranoia,slanderous and the usual predictability.

The Tory's and Labour aren't any better. The usual Tory/Labour UK Government we'll be stuck with, for the rest of our lives. Happy?

A good percentage of SNP politicians and members are English born or have English family, or English friends. English people vote the SNP up here.

Please keep up to date on Scottish issues, thank you. Because You're wrong about the Euro.

I hate to say this Graham, but I have heard a lot about the SNP's favour towards immigration, especially of blacks and middle easterns.

[Graham]

I hate to say this Graham, but I have heard a lot about the SNP's favour towards immigration, especially of blacks and middle easterns.

Your a yank. Keep your neb out.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Welsh firmly back Britain's Union

i.e.

http://www.insuranceage.co.uk/IMG/615/208615/pound-sign-eyes-230x142.jpg?1327589642

[Pyramidologist]

I hate to say this Graham, but I have heard a lot about the SNP's favour towards immigration, especially of blacks and middle easterns.

They are a civic nationalist party. They think blacks or other immigrants are as Scottish as the indigenous Scottish people, which is of course potty. They also love Muslims and support Islamification.

http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2010/08/muslim-infiltration-of-scottish.html

Muslim Infiltration of the SNP

On 5 July 2010 the Herald carried this report about infiltration of the Scottish National Party (SNP) by Muslims. For reasons of political correctness, it did not describe the infiltrators as Muslims, saying only that they had "Asian surnames".

"The SNP has denied allegations of vote-rigging after its executive committee was forced to take action to prevent new members standing for election in the west of Scotland, following a sudden upsurge in membership in the region.

It emerged yesterday that the SNP’s national executive committee had become suspicious after hundreds of new members - most of whom are understood to have Asian surnames - suddenly joined the party in the west of Scotland just in time to vote for their preferred candidate in this summer’s selection process for the Holyrood race."

:rolleyes:

[Argyll]

Your a yank. Keep your neb out.

I'm not saying that it was true, I was saying that it was what I heard. No need to start flinging insults or anything.

[Pyramidologist]

When everyone wants to get out of the Euro they want to get in....nice move.

They should look where it got Ireland.

SNP are just hypocrits. They want to leave the British union, but want closer ties with Europe. So much for them caring about preserving Scottish interests and culture when they want to be more continental European. The party is just anglophobic, it just hates the union because of the tensions in the past hundreds of years ago with England, that's its entire basis.

[Albion]

3.5%, Not that much dfferen't to England. I think it shows more about the Unionist Party, Labour. Compared to a Separatist party SNP. Time to bin Labour.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19610&stc=1&d=1328358542

The problem is that those figures for the English regions aren't exactly amazing either. English regions range from populations the size of Wales all the way up to on a par with Scotland.
London clearly gets more than its fair share.


if Luxembourg

They do it by getting rich foreigners to move their. Look at how many real Luxembourgers are left and you'll see why that'd be bad for Wales.


Slovenia can do it so can we.

Austria, Germany and Italy have poured money in the place. England would likely do so if Wales broke away. New business opportunities and all.


If Scotland goes (and it is still an if), then the United Kingdom in which we live will cease to exist. It will float away into the history books as suddenly and permanently as the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union. If England, Wales and Northern Ireland wish to remain linked by a political union, it would have to be a completely new union; with a different constitution and, yes, even a different flag.

I doubt it will change much sadly. The UK without Scotland would likely still have NI, England and Wales. If NI left then England and Wales in all likelihood would stay united, it'd be a lot simpler then - the new country could just be a federation of "England & Wales".
I don't think Scotland leaving would lead to equal devolved powers across the UK, it will never be a real federation. :(


The days of Wales being treated as a province of a Greater England ended with devolution and there can be no going back.

Because economically it is, it needs London, Bristol, Birmingham and Liverpool more than England needs Wales.
I'm not entirely sure about self-government though, I think Wales actually does set a lot of its own policies, I think the whole "we're England's lackey" thing is all in Welsh insecurities.
I think there's a definite trait amongst the Welsh which likes to think the worst of their situation, there's the same in parts of the North and Midlands in England.


But a continuing Anglo-Welsh union is another if. It could well be that it is the English - the modern, post-imperial English - question the point of such a union.

Well yes, but the English hardly think about Wales as they do Scotland. Wales is generally liked, tolerated at worst.
I don't think that England would force Wales away of Scotland and NI left the union.


The government of Wales (both in Cardiff and London) does spend more than it takes in taxes from Wales. So the awkward truth here in Wales is that the English do subsidise us - up to a point, anyway. As a proud Welshman - as a proud man in fact - I don't think this is fair or desireable for anyone.

Parts of England subsidise other parts, a few knobs from London a few years back said it'd be better if the Northern English, Welsh and Scottish just abandoned the rest of the UK and went to live in the South East! :eek:
England (particularly the South and Midlands) may subsidise some areas of the UK now, but in the not too distant past areas such as Wales and Northern England were hugely important to the British economy.
The situation has parallels in Belgium between Flanders and Wallonia, only the Flemish mimic the English more but they want out.


Wales can be a viable state, but I think an increasing sense of English identity over the border may make any Welsh desire for independence a moot point.

Scottish independence would be a wakeup call for the English and make them actually consider "Britishness" and their identity.
But it won't happen, because I'm pretty sure Scotland won't vote for it. :rolleyes2:


Being in the UK, with the Barnett formula, creates a comfort zone. No responsibilities. It would mean you're going to spend, spend, spend. Having full fiscal control, would force people to think differently. Learn from mistakes.

Yes, the regions of the UK have contributed to the bloated public sector for example. I think that the country actually needs to learn about fiscal efficiency and living within its budget.


Wales is devolved like Treffie says, yes. But we're still taking pocket money from London. That in my opinion, isn't a good form of devolution.

Indeed, but it is whether NI and Wales could survive on the taxes they'd raise themselves or not.

[Graham]

As far as the SNP are concerned, they are an independence party. They don't have control of immigration.
The SNP have a wide spectrum of opinion from left to right. If independent, there's a good chance the SNP could cease to exist. Making this irrelevant.

But anyway, the topic is about the wonderful country of Wales. Not about us, nor Immigration. So that's that for myself.

[Albion]

Exactly so. We're getting the best of both worlds; I can understand the growing sense of resentment that many English people feel.

The English feel like we're being screwed - Westminster hardly acknowledges us whilst Wales, Scotland and NI can look after their citizens and improve things for themselves. It's not purely about money.


I think it's important, at this point, to try and make sure this debate doesn't simply become an economic argument. It always tends to do this, principally, because the unionists think it is their strongest argument.

:thumb001:


For example, independence for Ireland never made economic sense, but the Irish people wanted it. The reunification of Germany in the early 1990s was always going to be a huge economic burden for West Germany, but it was what all the German people desired. The economic argument is important, but it is also important to remember that man cannot live by bread alone.

Agreed.


As I've said, I believe that, if there is to be no post-Scotland union, it will be an English decision, not a Welsh one. We may well end up like Belarus or Moldova: a nation that wasn't clamouring for independence, but which nevertheless had independence thrust upon it.

I very much doubt it. Wales and NI will probably stay attached to England unless they ask for independence.
The UK without Scotland would still function much the same.


They love Muslims, but hate the ethnic-english.

I know, typical multiculturalist BS. Those kinds of people usually preach to us all about how we should love other ethnicities but usually they hate Western ethnicities themselves.


When I heard this, it took me by surprise. From the Welsh people that I know, they are clear seperatists and you always hear about the Welsh wanting independence.

From all the Welsh Nationalist blogs I've visited you'd think that Wales was practically begging for independence. :rolleyes: They do tend to write in a particularly anti-England way.


When everyone wants to get out of the Euro they want to get in....nice move.

They should look where it got Ireland.

:D That's the SNP for ya.

[poiuytrewq0987]

SNP are just hypocrits. They want to leave the British union, but want closer ties with Europe. So much for them caring about preserving Scottish interests and culture when they want to be more continental European. The party is just anglophobic, it just hates the union because of the tensions in the past hundreds of years ago with England, that's its entire basis.

Not at all... just because Scotland wants independence doesn't mean Scotland wants to be isolationist.

[Albion]

Reality's a bitch ain't it?



The enitire EU as a concept is fucked, the only difference is that Ireland unfortunately had a boom that attracted foreigners. I certainly didn't know any ordinary Irish people that saw the rewards of some bogus "Celtic Tiger" the rich got richer and opened the doors to immigration while they were at it. No more boom = less immigration and life continues as normal for the average person. The poorer the better I say, as far as conservation of a people goes it's about the best thing to have on your side (the perception at least)

There was a report on Marxism Today (RT) once before that tried to paint it as if the Irish had been buying up properties left, right and centre.


They are a civic nationalist party. They think blacks or other immigrants are as Scottish as the indigenous Scottish people, which is of course potty. They also love Muslims and support Islamification.

The problem is that the main unionist parties (Liebour, Conservatives and Liberal undemocratics) aren't any different. :(


SNP are just hypocrits. They want to leave the British union, but want closer ties with Europe. So much for them caring about preserving Scottish interests and culture when they want to be more continental European. The party is just anglophobic, it just hates the union because of the tensions in the past hundreds of years ago with England, that's its entire basis.

I'm sorry Graham, he does make a few good points there. The SNP have recently been trying to "reach out" to the English by raising questions about English devolution and claiming England would be better alone (it serves their purpose).
Before that they relied on alienating the English alone, now they're our best friends all of a sudden. Oh Salmond, you fucking liar. :D


As far as the SNP are concerned, they are an independence party. They don't have control of immigration.

The problem is that if you oppose immigration you worry the ethnic minorities, the pro-immigration factions and then get slurred by the media.
A party can only become mainstream in the UK if it accepts the immigrants or else people won't vote for it, fearing that they'd be voting for something like the BNP. :rolleyes2:
It's sad, but that's how bad I think it's become. Political parties have to be kind to the immigrants now, which is why immigration reform is always a delicate issue. The multiculturalist retards come out all guns blazing as soon as something is done. :rolleyes2:


When is this topic going to get back to Wales anyway?

[Treffie]

I'm not entirely sure about self-government though, I think Wales actually does set a lot of its own policies, I think the whole "we're England's lackey" thing is all in Welsh insecurities.

The devolved powers in Wales are as follows;

Agriculture, fisheries, forestry and rural development
Ancient monuments and historic buildings
Culture
Economic development
Education and training
Environment
Fire and rescue services and promotion of fire safety
Food
Health and health services
Highways and transport
Housing
Local government
Public administration
Social welfare
Sport and recreation
Tourism
Town and country planning
Water and flood defence
Welsh language



Parts of England subsidise other parts, a few knobs from London a few years back said it'd be better if the Northern English, Welsh and Scottish just abandoned the rest of the UK and went to live in the South East! :eek:


Herein lies the problem. There is a massive brain drain from these regions towards the south-east of England, the problem is particularly acute in Wales.

[Albion]

The devolved powers in Wales are as follows;

Agriculture, fisheries, forestry and rural development
Ancient monuments and historic buildings
Culture
Economic development
Education and training
Environment
Fire and rescue services and promotion of fire safety
Food
Health and health services
Highways and transport
Housing
Local government
Public administration
Social welfare
Sport and recreation
Tourism
Town and country planning
Water and flood defence
Welsh language


It seems reasonable enough to me.


Herein lies the problem. There is a massive brain drain from these regions towards the south-east of England, the problem is particularly acute in Wales.

The South East isn't such a draw now though. The cost of living is sky high.

[Treffie]

The South East isn't such a draw now though. The cost of living is sky high.

It still is, especially for professionals straight out of university. Compare the opportunities in the south-east of England against those in Wales.

[Albion]

It still is, especially for professionals straight out of university. Compare the opportunities in the south-east of England against those in Wales.

Yes, I see what you're getting at now.

[Pyramidologist]

Scottish independence would be a wakeup call for the English and make them actually consider "Britishness" and their identity.
But it won't happen, because I'm pretty sure Scotland won't vote for it. :rolleyes2:

We are all British ethnically, not English, Scottish or Welsh (those are only cultures). People who think the English, Welsh or Scottish are genetically different or somehow of different ethnic goups are spreading misinformation, we all descend from the same ancestral stock.

England doesn't need to be independant, all it needs is its own parliament like Scotland has of its own. You don't need to break up the union for that.

[Albion]

We are all British ethnically, not English, Scottish or Welsh (those are only cultures). People who think the English, Welsh or Scottish are genetically different or somehow of different ethnic goups are spreading misinformation, we all descend from the same ancestral stock.

To an extent, yes. There are some differences based on different invaders, but generally we are much the same.
But we are different ethnic groups, ethnicity is not about genetics alone.


England doesn't need to be independant, all it needs is its own parliament like Scotland has of its own. You don't need to break up the union for that.

I know, a decent federal structure would achieve it too but I doubt it will ever happen.
Scotland, Wales and NI probably won't leave the UK, so what we need is for real federalism to be pushed for if (once) the independence vote fails.
The SNP will likely lead this anyway.

[Treffie]

We are all British ethnically, not English, Scottish or Welsh (those are only cultures). People who think the English, Welsh or Scottish are genetically different or somehow of different ethnic goups are spreading misinformation, we all descend from the same ancestral stock.


Genetics =/= ethnicity.