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2DREZQ
02-07-2012, 03:19 PM
Consider this post a pre-emptive strike

http://armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030


Truth, lies and Afghanistan
How military leaders have let us down
BY LT. COL. DANIEL L. DAVIS
I spent last year in Afghanistan, visiting and talking with U.S. troops and their Afghan partners. My duties with the Army’s Rapid Equipping Force took me into every significant area where our soldiers engage the enemy. Over the course of 12 months, I covered more than 9,000 miles and talked, traveled and patrolled with troops in Kandahar, Kunar, Ghazni, Khost, Paktika, Kunduz, Balkh, Nangarhar and other provinces.

What I saw bore no resemblance to rosy official statements by U.S. military leaders about conditions on the ground.

Entering this deployment, I was sincerely hoping to learn that the claims were true: that conditions in Afghanistan were improving, that the local government and military were progressing toward self-sufficiency. I did not need to witness dramatic improvements to be reassured, but merely hoped to see evidence of positive trends, to see companies or battalions produce even minimal but sustainable progress.

Instead, I witnessed the absence of success on virtually every level.

My arrival in country in late 2010 marked the start of my fourth combat deployment, and my second in Afghanistan. A Regular Army officer in the Armor Branch, I served in Operation Desert Storm, in Afghanistan in 2005-06 and in Iraq in 2008-09. In the middle of my career, I spent eight years in the U.S. Army Reserve and held a number of civilian jobs — among them, legislative correspondent for defense and foreign affairs for Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas.

As a representative for the Rapid Equipping Force, I set out to talk to our troops about their needs and their circumstances. Along the way, I conducted mounted and dismounted combat patrols, spending time with conventional and Special Forces troops. I interviewed or had conversations with more than 250 soldiers in the field, from the lowest-ranking 19-year-old private to division commanders and staff members at every echelon. I spoke at length with Afghan security officials, Afghan civilians and a few village elders.

I saw the incredible difficulties any military force would have to pacify even a single area of any of those provinces; I heard many stories of how insurgents controlled virtually every piece of land beyond eyeshot of a U.S. or International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) base.

I saw little to no evidence the local governments were able to provide for the basic needs of the people. Some of the Afghan civilians I talked with said the people didn’t want to be connected to a predatory or incapable local government.

From time to time, I observed Afghan Security forces collude with the insurgency.

FROM BAD TO ABYSMAL

Much of what I saw during my deployment, let alone read or wrote in official reports, I can’t talk about; the information remains classified. But I can say that such reports — mine and others’ — serve to illuminate the gulf between conditions on the ground and official statements of progress.

And I can relate a few representative experiences, of the kind that I observed all over the country.

In January 2011, I made my first trip into the mountains of Kunar province near the Pakistan border to visit the troops of 1st Squadron, 32nd Cavalry. On a patrol to the northernmost U.S. position in eastern Afghanistan, we arrived at an Afghan National Police (ANP) station that had reported being attacked by the Taliban 2½ hours earlier.

Through the interpreter, I asked the police captain where the attack had originated, and he pointed to the side of a nearby mountain.

“What are your normal procedures in situations like these?” I asked. “Do you form up a squad and go after them? Do you periodically send out harassing patrols? What do you do?”

As the interpreter conveyed my questions, the captain’s head wheeled around, looking first at the interpreter and turning to me with an incredulous expression. Then he laughed.

“No! We don’t go after them,” he said. “That would be dangerous!”

According to the cavalry troopers, the Afghan policemen rarely leave the cover of the checkpoints. In that part of the province, the Taliban literally run free.

In June, I was in the Zharay district of Kandahar province, returning to a base from a dismounted patrol. Gunshots were audible as the Taliban attacked a U.S. checkpoint about one mile away.

As I entered the unit’s command post, the commander and his staff were watching a live video feed of the battle. Two ANP vehicles were blocking the main road leading to the site of the attack. The fire was coming from behind a haystack. We watched as two Afghan men emerged, mounted a motorcycle and began moving toward the Afghan policemen in their vehicles.

The U.S. commander turned around and told the Afghan radio operator to make sure the policemen halted the men. The radio operator shouted into the radio repeatedly, but got no answer.

On the screen, we watched as the two men slowly motored past the ANP vehicles. The policemen neither got out to stop the two men nor answered the radio — until the motorcycle was out of sight.

To a man, the U.S. officers in that unit told me they had nothing but contempt for the Afghan troops in their area — and that was before the above incident occurred.

In August, I went on a dismounted patrol with troops in the Panjwai district of Kandahar province. Several troops from the unit had recently been killed in action, one of whom was a very popular and experienced soldier. One of the unit’s senior officers rhetorically asked me, “How do I look these men in the eye and ask them to go out day after day on these missions? What’s harder: How do I look [my soldier’s] wife in the eye when I get back and tell her that her husband died for something meaningful? How do I do that?”

One of the senior enlisted leaders added, “Guys are saying, ‘I hope I live so I can at least get home to R&R leave before I get it,’ or ‘I hope I only lose a foot.’ Sometimes they even say which limb it might be: ‘Maybe it’ll only be my left foot.’ They don’t have a lot of confidence that the leadership two levels up really understands what they’re living here, what the situation really is.”

On Sept. 11, the 10th anniversary of the infamous attack on the U.S., I visited another unit in Kunar province, this one near the town of Asmar. I talked with the local official who served as the cultural adviser to the U.S. commander. Here’s how the conversation went:

Davis: “Here you have many units of the Afghan National Security Forces [ANSF]. Will they be able to hold out against the Taliban when U.S. troops leave this area?”

Adviser: “No. They are definitely not capable. Already all across this region [many elements of] the security forces have made deals with the Taliban. [The ANSF] won’t shoot at the Taliban, and the Taliban won’t shoot them.

“Also, when a Taliban member is arrested, he is soon released with no action taken against him. So when the Taliban returns [when the Americans leave after 2014], so too go the jobs, especially for everyone like me who has worked with the coalition.

“Recently, I got a cellphone call from a Talib who had captured a friend of mine. While I could hear, he began to beat him, telling me I’d better quit working for the Americans. I could hear my friend crying out in pain. [The Talib] said the next time they would kidnap my sons and do the same to them. Because of the direct threats, I’ve had to take my children out of school just to keep them safe.

“And last night, right on that mountain there [he pointed to a ridge overlooking the U.S. base, about 700 meters distant], a member of the ANP was murdered. The Taliban came and called him out, kidnapped him in front of his parents, and took him away and murdered him. He was a member of the ANP from another province and had come back to visit his parents. He was only 27 years old. The people are not safe anywhere.”

That murder took place within view of the U.S. base, a post nominally responsible for the security of an area of hundreds of square kilometers. Imagine how insecure the population is beyond visual range. And yet that conversation was representative of what I saw in many regions of Afghanistan.

In all of the places I visited, the tactical situation was bad to abysmal. If the events I have described — and many, many more I could mention — had been in the first year of war, or even the third or fourth, one might be willing to believe that Afghanistan was just a hard fight, and we should stick it out. Yet these incidents all happened in the 10th year of war.

As the numbers depicting casualties and enemy violence indicate the absence of progress, so too did my observations of the tactical situation all over Afghanistan.

CREDIBILITY GAP

I’m hardly the only one who has noted the discrepancy between official statements and the truth on the ground.

A January 2011 report by the Afghan NGO Security Office noted that public statements made by U.S. and ISAF leaders at the end of 2010 were “sharply divergent from IMF, [international military forces, NGO-speak for ISAF] ‘strategic communication’ messages suggesting improvements. We encourage [nongovernment organization personnel] to recognize that no matter how authoritative the source of any such claim, messages of the nature are solely intended to influence American and European public opinion ahead of the withdrawal, and are not intended to offer an accurate portrayal of the situation for those who live and work here.”

The following month, Anthony Cordesman, on behalf of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote that ISAF and the U.S. leadership failed to report accurately on the reality of the situation in Afghanistan.

“Since June 2010, the unclassified reporting the U.S. does provide has steadily shrunk in content, effectively ‘spinning’ the road to victory by eliminating content that illustrates the full scale of the challenges ahead,” Cordesman wrote. “They also, however, were driven by political decisions to ignore or understate Taliban and insurgent gains from 2002 to 2009, to ignore the problems caused by weak and corrupt Afghan governance, to understate the risks posed by sanctuaries in Pakistan, and to ‘spin’ the value of tactical ISAF victories while ignoring the steady growth of Taliban influence and control.”

How many more men must die in support of a mission that is not succeeding and behind an array of more than seven years of optimistic statements by U.S. senior leaders in Afghanistan? No one expects our leaders to always have a successful plan. But we do expect — and the men who do the living, fighting and dying deserve — to have our leaders tell us the truth about what’s going on.

I first encountered senior-level equivocation during a 1997 division-level “experiment” that turned out to be far more setpiece than experiment. Over dinner at Fort Hood, Texas, Training and Doctrine Command leaders told me that the Advanced Warfighter Experiment (AWE) had shown that a “digital division” with fewer troops and more gear could be far more effective than current divisions. The next day, our congressional staff delegation observed the demonstration firsthand, and it didn’t take long to realize there was little substance to the claims. Virtually no legitimate experimentation was actually conducted. All parameters were carefully scripted. All events had a preordained sequence and outcome. The AWE was simply an expensive show, couched in the language of scientific experimentation and presented in glowing press releases and public statements, intended to persuade Congress to fund the Army’s preference. Citing the AWE’s “results,” Army leaders proceeded to eliminate one maneuver company per combat battalion. But the loss of fighting systems was never offset by a commensurate rise in killing capability.

A decade later, in the summer of 2007, I was assigned to the Future Combat Systems (FCS) organization at Fort Bliss, Texas. It didn’t take long to discover that the same thing the Army had done with a single division at Fort Hood in 1997 was now being done on a significantly larger scale with FCS. Year after year, the congressionally mandated reports from the Government Accountability Office revealed significant problems and warned that the system was in danger of failing. Each year, the Army’s senior leaders told members of Congress at hearings that GAO didn’t really understand the full picture and that to the contrary, the program was on schedule, on budget, and headed for success. Ultimately, of course, the program was canceled, with little but spinoffs to show for $18 billion spent.

If Americans were able to compare the public statements many of our leaders have made with classified data, this credibility gulf would be immediately observable. Naturally, I am not authorized to divulge classified material to the public. But I am legally able to share it with members of Congress. I have accordingly provided a much fuller accounting in a classified report to several members of Congress, both Democrats and Republicans, senators and House members.

A nonclassified version is available at www.afghanreport.com. [Editor’s note: At press time, Army public affairs had not yet ruled on whether Davis could post this longer version.]

TELL THE TRUTH

When it comes to deciding what matters are worth plunging our nation into war and which are not, our senior leaders owe it to the nation and to the uniformed members to be candid — graphically, if necessary — in telling them what’s at stake and how expensive potential success is likely to be. U.S. citizens and their elected representatives can decide if the risk to blood and treasure is worth it.

Likewise when having to decide whether to continue a war, alter its aims or to close off a campaign that cannot be won at an acceptable price, our senior leaders have an obligation to tell Congress and American people the unvarnished truth and let the people decide what course of action to choose. That is the very essence of civilian control of the military. The American people deserve better than what they’ve gotten from their senior uniformed leaders over the last number of years. Simply telling the truth would be a good start. AFJ


It's time to admit we screwed the pooch, folks.

The next time; no boots on the ground, just incessant predator drone overflights and the occasional cruise missile.

Black Sun Dimension
02-07-2012, 03:31 PM
It's time to admit we screwed the pooch, folks.

The next time; no boots on the ground, just incessant predator drone overflights and the occasional cruise missile.


http://www.newbedfordguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/rsz_braggadocio-bamf-demotivational-poster-1278099862.jpg

2DREZQ
02-07-2012, 04:58 PM
http://www.newbedfordguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/rsz_braggadocio-bamf-demotivational-poster-1278099862.jpg


:confused:

What's the point of this post?

Black Sun Dimension
02-07-2012, 05:33 PM
:confused:

What's the point of this post?

Oh im sorry, I thought you were bragging with that little remark you made about bombing other nations with drones and cruise missiles.

It reminded me of this video.

sWS-FoXbjVI

2DREZQ
02-07-2012, 06:13 PM
Oh im sorry, I thought you were bragging with that little remark you made about bombing other nations with drones and cruise missiles.

No, I wouldn't characterize it as bragging. I was, perhaps too concisely, expressing the opinion that, they next time the government of the United States feels it is necessary to punish some state or group for actions they perceive to be unacceptable, they should stick to blowing sh*t up from afar, and bumping off individuals as required. Without spending our own blood.

SwordoftheVistula
02-08-2012, 07:48 AM
That's a good article, and matches what I have read elsewhere.

Joe McCarthy
02-08-2012, 07:51 AM
Clinton tried the bomb-a-tent idea. It didn't work. It's why we tried ground forces in Afghanistan the next time.

Siberyak
02-08-2012, 07:56 AM
Clinton tried the bomb-a-tent idea. It didn't work. It's why we tried ground forces in Afghanistan the next time.

spreading your troops out to thin is a recipe for disaster.

SwordoftheVistula
02-08-2012, 08:06 AM
It's why we tried ground forces in Afghanistan the next time.

That didn't work, and it cost a lot more in lives and money.

The drones & bombing on the other hand have killed a number of top Al-Quada leaders all over the muslim world.


spreading your troops out to thin is a recipe for disaster.

Unless there was a radical solution like conscripting the entire prison population, there's no way they could come up with the # of troops needed to occupy and pacify a place like Afghanistan.

Joe McCarthy
02-08-2012, 08:26 AM
That didn't work, and it cost a lot more in lives and money.


It's still ongoing. It did work in Iraq. It could work in Afghanistan if the war were fought properly. What certainly didn't work was Clinton's pathetic whack-a-mole airstrike after the African embassy bombings.

Siberyak
02-08-2012, 08:36 AM
It's still ongoing. It did work in Iraq. It could work in Afghanistan if the war were fought properly. What certainly didn't work was Clinton's pathetic whack-a-mole airstrike after the African embassy bombings.

Nothing worked in Iraq. Did America really think they could bring democracy too the heart of the middle east? All that is happening now is Iraq is being torn by religious strife. There have been at least six massive bomb attacks since the USA pulled out.

Joe McCarthy
02-08-2012, 08:40 AM
Nothing worked in Iraq. Did America really think they could bring democracy too the heart of the middle east? All that is happening now is Iraq is being torn by religious strife. There have been at least six massive bomb attacks since the USA pulled out.

No, the insurgency was essentially defeated by the surge. The chances of the Iraqi government being overthrown by a few ragtag insurgents remaining is minimal. We won in Iraq.

Siberyak
02-08-2012, 08:45 AM
No, the insurgency was essentially defeated by the surge. The chances of the Iraqi government being overthrown by a few ragtag insurgents remaining is minimal. We won in Iraq.

How did we win? Iraq is so unstable that that a massive secretarian war could happen anytime. I dont recall any of this instability happening under Saddam Hussein. Why dont you ask someone who lost a family member over there if we have won.

Joe McCarthy
02-08-2012, 09:00 AM
How did we win? Iraq is so unstable that that a massive secretarian war could happen anytime. I dont recall any of this instability happening under Saddam Hussein. Why dont you ask someone who lost a family member over there if we have won.

A civil war is possible. We should have left some troops behind. We built an Iraqi security force from scratch to 650,000 strong though. This isn't South Vietnam where we leave and the government soon gets run over. The government of Iraq is unlikely to go anywhere. The fact that Saddam's Iraq was more stable is irrelevant to this.

People lose family members in every war, won or lost.

Siberyak
02-08-2012, 09:15 AM
A civil war is possible. We should have left some troops behind. We built an Iraqi security force from scratch to 650,000 strong though. This isn't South Vietnam where we leave and the government soon gets run over. The government of Iraq is unlikely to go anywhere. The fact that Saddam's Iraq was more stable is irrelevant to this.

People lose family members in every war, won or lost.

the iraqs have never known democracy so it is nearly impossible to put a functioning one in place. Saddam was no longer useful to the USA so they disposed of him.

Joe McCarthy
02-08-2012, 09:21 AM
the iraqs have never known democracy so it is nearly impossible to put a functioning one in place. Saddam was no longer useful to the USA so they disposed of him.

Japan had never known democracy either, and in a real way neither had Germany.

We'll see how things develop I suppose. I personally opposed this war, but every sane person wants to see it end well.

SwordoftheVistula
02-08-2012, 09:56 AM
It's still ongoing. It did work in Iraq.

If you consider the installation of a regime which is friends with your favorite nation of Iran, and has announced plans to help them smuggle oil and otherwise defeat the embargo against them, then yes.

AussieScott
02-08-2012, 11:57 AM
The BRIC's are going to work with their ME allies as much as they can to divert the oil, so as to avoid it being traded in US/Euro dollars. India has already made a deal with Iran to trade oil in gold, it looks like China is going to follow.

It seems more money is going to flow East being more countries are happy to bypass the Western Anglo Empires monetary system.

I smell economic and more small wars in the future which could escalate to something more substantial. I wonder if the Anglo gold miners will dump gold onto the market to make a killing soon, I know they have been stacking it up in their vaults in Australia:D?

I say screw them, and the Anglo Empire become isolationist between brother nations, stop the mass immigration, and start exploiting coal to oil, deep sea oil, and the sweet crude we have purposely left untapped. Concentrate on our own populations higher cognitive educations so as to innovate the future energy sources, agricultural techniques, medical and weapons.

2DREZQ
02-08-2012, 02:06 PM
Saddam was no longer useful to the USA so they disposed of him.

So we keep hearing. He wasn't useful and we did dispose of him. Nobody is nostalgic for "the good old days"

Time will tell if Iraq worked or not. An objective analyst could spin it either way.

Joe is right that the military mission in Iraq met it's goals (so far). I don't agree, however, that Afghanistan is, in any sense, winnable.

I refer you to Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History by Thomas J. Barfield

Since we lack the will to use nuclear weapons on sh*thole countries and lack the political will to invest the ungodly amount of money and troops that would be required to "pacify" the place, our only real option is to drop a few conventional warheads and assassinate vie drone individuals as required. Then let nature take its course otherwise.

Joe McCarthy
02-09-2012, 12:41 AM
So we keep hearing. He wasn't useful and we did dispose of him. Nobody is nostalgic for "the good old days"

Time will tell if Iraq worked or not. An objective analyst could spin it either way.

Joe is right that the military mission in Iraq met it's goals (so far). I don't agree, however, that Afghanistan is, in any sense, winnable.

I refer you to Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History by Thomas J. Barfield

Since we lack the will to use nuclear weapons on sh*thole countries and lack the political will to invest the ungodly amount of money and troops that would be required to "pacify" the place, our only real option is to drop a few conventional warheads and assassinate vie drone individuals as required. Then let nature take its course otherwise.



Afghanistan is similar to the British Raj's skirmishes against Pashtun troublemakers on their western periphery for the 30 years from the Third Anglo-Afghan War and Indian independence. We've killed over 40,000 insurgents. They've killed less than 2000 of our men. At the very least we won't lose as long as we stay there, and if we do pull out and hand the Islamists a victory that will have very unwelcome consequences both geopolitically and on the streets of the West.

To win will require more troops. That means our NATO allies should start doing their share for a change.

It also means invading the Pashtun tribal belt with an all out ground invasion-occupation.

Contrary to defeatist propaganda, Afghan cavemen are not invincible. The British essentially beat them in the Second Anglo-Afghan War.

The bottom line is: NO SURRENDER.

2DREZQ
02-09-2012, 01:31 AM
To win will require more troops. That means our NATO allies should start doing their share for a change.

It also means invading the Pashtun tribal belt with an all out ground invasion-occupation.

Contrary to defeatist propaganda, Afghan cavemen are not invincible. The British essentially beat them in the Second Anglo-Afghan War.


You might very well be correct, but we will never know.

SwordoftheVistula
02-09-2012, 05:35 AM
We've killed over 40,000 insurgents. They've killed less than 2000 of our men.

And what has that accomplished?


At the very least we won't lose as long as we stay there

Well yes we will, because it costs a huge amount of money, not to mention the dead & wounded, to stay there, while not accomplishing anything, as this article illustrates.


and if we do pull out and hand the Islamists a victory that will have very unwelcome consequences both geopolitically and on the streets of the West.

The people fighting us are random tribesmen, who will probably never journey farther than 100 miles from the place of their birth in their lifetimes. Basically, nothing bad can possibly happen if we leave. At some point, we have to realize that our expenditures there so far are sunken costs, and to cut our losses before we lose more.



To win will require more troops.

They tried that, with some temporary results of local Taliban keeping their heads down or moving to a different area, but nothing permanent to show for it. To flood the whole area with troops would be cost prohibitive, if you consider all the equipment, training, benefits, support units, medical care, etc involved with a modern military. You can't just conscript a bunch of people, give them a gun and a pair of boots, and throw them into a meatgrinder anymore, it's politically impossible.


That means our NATO allies should start doing their share for a change.

That's obviously not going to happen, since they have absolutely zero reason to be there, even less than we do.

They don't have much military capability anyways. Britain had to beg to have one of their ships allowed on the recent naval mission to the Persian Gulf, initially they were not invited because they had nothing of value to add.


It also means invading the Pashtun tribal belt with an all out ground invasion-occupation.

Again with the problem, where are we going to get the troops for that?

Raising more divisions in the modern western style is cost prohibitive

Western 'allies' won't send troops, and they don't have much to send anyways.

Old school mass conscription & flooding the zone with troops with a minimal amount of training and equipment, and willingness to take higher casualties, is politically impossible.

Dumping worthless western allies and paying off African dictators to send masses of troops with a minimal amount of training and equipment is too creative/outlandish of a solution for our politicians to consider.



Contrary to defeatist propaganda, Afghan cavemen are not invincible.

Well, so what? You can win 999 of 1000 shootouts with them, but still accomplish nothing in the greater scheme of things.

What are we accomplishing there? Hamid Kharzai runs the government in Kabul instead of a different tribal warlord? Some human rights & international aid workers have somewhat improved safety? A few token girls attend elementary school? None of this is worth the cost.

Joe McCarthy
02-09-2012, 05:52 AM
Originally Posted by SwordoftheVistula
And what has that accomplished?


Well, we have killed bin Laden and greatly disrupted the operational capacity of the terrorists we went after.


Well yes we will, because it costs a huge amount of money, not to mention the dead & wounded, to stay there, while not accomplishing anything, as this article illustrates.


As I just noted we've accomplished plenty. We can stay there for centuries if we want to. It's a trickle of the yearly budget.


The people fighting us are random tribesmen, who will probably never journey farther than 100 miles from the place of their birth in their lifetimes. Basically, nothing bad can possibly happen if we leave. At some point, we have to realize that our expenditures there so far are sunken costs, and to cut our losses before we lose more.


Allowing Muslims to defeat us on the battlefield will embolden Muslims globally. We can expect them to become more aggressive on our streets, not less, and it'll add to the feeling that the West is dying, unable to adequately address the Islamic challenge.


They tried that, with some temporary results of local Taliban keeping their heads down or moving to a different area, but nothing permanent to show for it. To flood the whole area with troops would be cost prohibitive, if you consider all the equipment, training, benefits, support units, medical care, etc involved with a modern military. You can't just conscript a bunch of people, give them a gun and a pair of boots, and throw them into a meatgrinder anymore, it's politically impossible.



We've never had adequate ground forces to wage COIN warfare. We need a minimum of a 10-1 advantage in troops and possibly as high as 25-1.


That's obviously not going to happen, since they have absolutely zero reason to be there, even less than we do.


Their reason is to maintain the integrity of NATO, which is good for all of us.


What are we accomplishing there? Hamid Kharzai runs the government in Kabul instead of a different tribal warlord? Some human rights & international aid workers have somewhat improved safety? A few token girls attend elementary school? None of this is worth the cost.

What we're accomplishing is to have a West-friendly government and not allow it to revert back to a theocratic terrorist sanctuary. We've spent too much money and lost too many men to allow it to revert back to the situation it was in before we went in. That'd be a national humiliation.

2DREZQ
02-09-2012, 03:10 PM
As I just noted we've accomplished plenty. We can stay there for centuries if we want to. It's a trickle of the yearly budget.

It's also a trickle of blood, and we as a nation have become quite sensitive in that regard.


Allowing Muslims to defeat us on the battlefield will embolden Muslims globally. We can expect them to become more aggressive on our streets, not less, and it'll add to the feeling that the West is dying, unable to adequately address the Islamic challenge.


We are leaving, whether it is a good idea or not is irrelevant now. To avert or blunt the effect you foresee we should look for an opportunity to, ah, "demonstrate our resolve" without an undue investment in American lives. I am not certain what form this demonstration should take, but then I am not a strategic planner. (Cue The Joker: "Do I look like a guy with a plan?")


Their reason is to maintain the integrity of NATO, which is good for all of us.

I agree that NATO continues to be a good idea. Convincing the Europeans to fund a military that has anything more than token value might be difficult.




What we're accomplishing is to have a West-friendly government and not allow it to revert back to a theocratic terrorist sanctuary. We've spent too much money and lost too many men to allow it to revert back to the situation it was in before we went in. That'd be a national humiliation.

Joe, you've often seemed to be a political realist. It seems to me that here you are engaging in wishful thinking. (That's normally MY job!) Given the current political climate in both the U.S. and Europe, and the ongoing cluster-... of the economies of same; What do you think is ACTUALLY going to happen?

Black Sun Dimension
02-09-2012, 03:43 PM
We've killed over 40,000 insurgents. They've killed less than 2000 of our men.

Insurgents? :bowlol::bowlol::bowlol::bowlol:

You mean patriots defending their country. Get it right.

2DREZQ
02-09-2012, 04:16 PM
You mean patriots defending their country.


The average German soldier shooting at Americans in 1945 could be described the same way.

It doesn't matter much. Getting in the way of a superpower is often deadly.

Defending something, yes, but I doubt very much that is the Nation of Afghanistan that they fight to protect. When we leave, these same patriots will gleefully resume terrorizing whomsoever of their fellow Afghanies until reorganized tribal/warlord power structure is established. I doubt very much that the needs and rights of women and the powerless will be given much thought.

Note: Saying bad stuff (true or otherwise) about America's role there is not a refutation in any way of my contention re: the nature of those fighting us. There are no Washington's or Jefferson's in that lot.

"Yeah! The Infidels have fled! Let the beheadings resume!"

Black Sun Dimension
02-09-2012, 04:28 PM
The average German soldier shooting at Americans in 1945 could be described the same way.

It doesn't matter much. Getting in the way of a superpower is often deadly.

Americans in WW2? :confused: they didnt do shit, it was the Soviets who made the Nazi their bitch, dont pat yourself on the back ;)

It doesnt matter much? typical american warmongering brain fart :clap:

2DREZQ
02-09-2012, 04:50 PM
If we want a "win" in Afdirtistan, we can do it on the cheap:

Support the current government at whatever level decorum requires.

When that government falls to one far less amenable to American "suggestions" find a pretext for calling that government out as dangerous.

Stop sending any and all aid, government or NGO, US or otherwise sourced.

Monitor the Pakistani border closely, force the Pakistani's to forgo any meaningful support of arms or supplies, including humanitarian aid, while that regime is in power.

Let Iran ride to the rescue, Afdirtistan is a money hole of the 1st magnitude. Let Aminutjob feed them, if he will.

Afghanistan cannot feed itself, nor can it trade any goods in sufficient quantity to purchase food. They wish to be left alone to run their own affairs. I agree. WE WILL LEAVE THEM UTTERLY ON THEIR OWN!

If that is their wish, let them feed themselves. How many loaves of bread can you buy with a used AK-47?

2DREZQ
02-09-2012, 04:57 PM
:confused:

I think you've picked an appropriate smiley, confused describes you perfectly.



It doesnt matter much?

If labels stopped bullets we could save a lot of money on bulletproof vests.


typical american warmongering brain fart

Do you even READ other people's posts? Or do you just look at the location info of the poster, and stick a label on? Oh, that's right, labels are important to you.

That's MISTER Warmongering Brain Fart to you!

Note to fellow Apricians: Stop lifting up rocks. Too many things are crawling out from under them lately.

Black Sun Dimension
02-09-2012, 05:02 PM
If we want a "win" in Afdirtistan


You can win yes, by getting the fuck out of there ;)

And it's called Afghanistan; have a little respect for other countries, maybe then people will start respecting you inbred american retards :rolleyes:

2DREZQ
02-09-2012, 05:58 PM
You can win yes, by getting the fuck out of there

I believe that I was pretty clear. Getting out of that sh*thole was the entire point of my starting this thread.


And it's called Afghanistan;

It was NAMED is Afghanistan. It's CALLED many, many other things.


have a little respect for other countries, maybe then people will start respecting you

I would prefer fear and loathing, thank you.


inbred american retards


That would be; "Genetically-disadvantaged American Mentally-challenged individuals"

Have a little respect, then maybe we will go back to ignoring your shortcomings.

And take a creative writing class before you graduate.

AussieScott
02-09-2012, 10:26 PM
Afghanistan is similar to the British Raj's skirmishes against Pashtun troublemakers on their western periphery for the 30 years from the Third Anglo-Afghan War and Indian independence. We've killed over 40,000 insurgents. They've killed less than 2000 of our men. At the very least we won't lose as long as we stay there, and if we do pull out and hand the Islamists a victory that will have very unwelcome consequences both geopolitically and on the streets of the West.

To win will require more troops. That means our NATO allies should start doing their share for a change.

It also means invading the Pashtun tribal belt with an all out ground invasion-occupation.

Contrary to defeatist propaganda, Afghan cavemen are not invincible. The British essentially beat them in the Second Anglo-Afghan War.

The bottom line is: NO SURRENDER.

Joe, if the objective was 'NO SURRENDER', then the plan from the start should of been to annihilate them, rebuild, hold and expand. Since the Afghanistan surge it's been fluffy off/off cards that puts our soldiers in harms way, with little respect gained from the populace.

2014 is the pull down/out date from what I can gather, by then the bomb, bomb Iran's military infrastructure will be completed. I had hopes Iran would have a regime change, but that ain't happening, so it's going to be bomb, bomb, bomb.

It will be interesting to see were the money deals have been made, you see if Iran had a regime change then the deal would of been done there. So instead the money deal I have no doubt now is with Pakistan. Pakistan will be the country to watch when the US pulls out, for it will be Pakistan who controls the oil and gas in the region, and trades it for US/Euro dollars. IMO.

It all comes down to money and power at the end of the day, these persons who pull the string from the dark, care not for western civilisation or Europeans in general, otherwise our politicians would not be planting the mass immigration of the present, in hopes of open borders in the future.

Joe McCarthy
02-09-2012, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by 2DREZQ
We are leaving, whether it is a good idea or not is irrelevant now.

I think it's better to say we're leaving if this nigger incompetent gets reelected. At present we're in staged withdrawal mode. If Romney is elected everything changes.


I agree that NATO continues to be a good idea. Convincing the Europeans to fund a military that has anything more than token value might be difficult.


True. We've already tried to get the Europeans to send more troops. That may leave us with having to bring back the draft.


Joe, you've often seemed to be a political realist. It seems to me that here you are engaging in wishful thinking. (That's normally MY job!) Given the current political climate in both the U.S. and Europe, and the ongoing cluster-... of the economies of same; What do you think is ACTUALLY going to happen?

I think it depends on who wins in November. If Obama is reelected we're going to lose this war.

SwordoftheVistula
02-10-2012, 08:29 AM
Well, we have killed bin Laden

in Pakistan


and greatly disrupted the operational capacity of the terrorists we went after.

That was accomplished in the first year. Since then? Not much.


We've never had adequate ground forces to wage COIN warfare. We need a minimum of a 10-1 advantage in troops and possibly as high as 25-1.

Where are you going to get those troops? Considering how much support units & such a modern military requires, we'd need an army the size of China's.


What we're accomplishing is to have a West-friendly government and not allow it to revert back to a theocratic terrorist sanctuary.

What we have now is a government which is astonishingly corrupt and friendly to Iran, but not able to control much outside the capital, and most of the country is ruled by warlords. You really can't get much worse than this.


We've spent too much money and lost too many men to allow it to revert back to the situation it was in before we went in. That'd be a national humiliation.

Why throw good money & lives after bad? Continuing waste on a path which has proved unfruitful is insane.


Americans in WW2? :confused: they didnt do shit, it was the Soviets who made the Nazi their bitch, dont pat yourself on the back

Soviets didn't do jack in WWII other than get their asses kicked, until they got mass shipments of American weaponry, trucks, machine tools, and industrial equipment, and then bombed Germany to pieces. The kill ratio of Germans to Soviets is similar to Americans vs Taliban.



If Romney is elected everything changes.

Highly unlikely. He's a businessman focused on economic issues, and by all evidence regards things like gay marriage, abortion, and foreign policy as silly distractions. I highly doubt he would change up a withdrawal date which is already set, just like Obama did not really change from Bush's foreign policies. Also, with Bain Capital, he didn't show any reluctance to close down failing enterprises.

zack
02-10-2012, 09:11 AM
I think it's better to say we're leaving if this nigger incompetent gets reelected. At present we're in staged withdrawal mode. If Romney is elected everything changes.

Joe do you really trust the republican party? Do you truly trust the politicians of this country?

AussieScott
02-10-2012, 09:13 AM
Highly unlikely. He's a businessman focused on economic issues, and by all evidence regards things like gay marriage, abortion, and foreign policy as silly distractions. I highly doubt he would change up a withdrawal date which is already set, just like Obama did not really change from Bush's foreign policies. Also, with Bain Capital, he didn't show any reluctance to close down failing enterprises.


Exactly, it really, really, makes me wonder when the rusted on Republican/Democrats Conservatives/Liberal wake up and realise it's the same coin, just a different side. It's the same car, just a different driver who may make a couple of different turns, but ultimately will end up in the same place. Doing exactly what they have been told.

Joe McCarthy
02-10-2012, 09:15 AM
Joe do you really trust the republican party? Do you truly trust the politicians of this country?

I trust Romney not to surrender, yes. He attacked a suggestion in one of the debates that we do so violently.

zack
02-10-2012, 09:16 AM
Exactly, it really, really, makes me wonder when the rusted on Republican/Democrats Conservatives/Liberal wake up and realise it's the same coin, just a different side. It's the same car, just a different driver who may make a couple of different turns, but ultimately will end up in the same place. Doing exactly what they have been told.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I mean everyone by now should have already figured out that politicians don't give a shit about white people or ethnic groups. All they care about is a the greenbacks.

Joe McCarthy
02-10-2012, 09:31 AM
http://www.drudge.com/news/153083/romney-afghanistan-withdrawal-announcement


Romney: Afghanistan Withdrawal Announcement 'Misguided'

LAS VEGAS - Mitt Romney offered harsh criticism of a plan outlined by Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to possibly withdraw U.S. combat troops from Afghanistan in 2013, calling the administration's decision to announce its military plans to the world "misguided" and "naive."



In response to a question about what he planned to do with the Taliban Romney said simply: 'beat them'.

Black Sun Dimension
02-10-2012, 11:21 AM
I believe that I was pretty clear. Getting out of that sh*thole was the entire point of my starting this thread.

Attaboy.


It was NAMED is Afghanistan. It's CALLED many, many other things.

The sentiment is the same, disparaging others. Get off your high horse.


I would prefer fear and loathing, thank you.

Of course you do Cletus.

http://indebtfatshortbadteeth.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/cletus.jpg


That would be; "Genetically-disadvantaged American Mentally-challenged individuals"

An attempt at humour, I suppose?


Soviets didn't do jack in WWII other than get their asses kicked, until they got mass shipments of American weaponry, trucks, machine tools, and industrial equipment, and then bombed Germany to pieces.

:pound::pound::pound::pound::pound::pound:

2DREZQ
02-10-2012, 01:45 PM
The sentiment is the same, disparaging others. Get off your high horse.


I'll stay on my horse. Why get down in the horse poop where "you people" are.



Of course you do Cletus.

You need to enroll in a creative writing course before you graduate.



An attempt at humour, I suppose?

A pretty successful one. But, since you wrote the original "witty" insult, I doubt you caught the humor without help from one of your classroom assistants.

BTW; Thanks for playing the part of Lowest Common Denominator in this thread.