Arbanasi - Albanians in Croatia

[Adrian]

Arbanasi

Arbanasi (Albanian: Arbëreshët e Zarës, local dialect: Arbneshë), also known as the Arbëreshë of Zara, are a population in Croatia of Albanian origin, who speak a local dialect of Gheg Albanian.[1] Their name means Albanians in Croatian and is the toponymy of the first Arbanasi settlement in the region, which today is a suburb of Zadar.

Distribution

Today, the community is spread across Croatia. Their original settlements were Arbanasi of Zadar and some villages around Zadar, namely Zemunik, Dračevac, Crno, Ploča, etc.[2] The inhabitants of this one time village were known as the Arbanasi (or simply, the "Albanians" in Croatian). The Arbanasi are known to have settled the area during two different periods of migration; the first in 1655 and the second in 1726-33. These settlers were said to be part of the Kastrioti clan, one of the numerous Northern Albanian clans known to have existed.

....

[Adrian]

History

The origin of this population is thought to be from Shkodra lake region in Northwestern Albania and Southeastern Montenegro. According to scholars they are descendants of immigrants from villages in Bar region of Montenegro primarely and from Briska and Livar. Arbanasi have migrated in two different periods, during the mid 17th and 18th century.
The first group of Arbanasi group of Albanians that migrated to Croatia includes a community that settled near Pula, Istria in 1655. All these groups would be integrated into the social and economic Venetian-Dalmatian, but they preserved their language and their customs, and songs. First, the Albanian community worked to reclaim the marshy areas near the Arbanas, which was originally an island and that in time it was connected to the mainland, and then got to make the land cultivable land in the scheme of 'lease. The Venetian government took charge of construction of many homes and, at first, even meals.
Since 1901 the Arbanasi was also equipped with an Albanian school and in 1910 James Vuçani promoted and organized the "Italo-Albanian Association".
According to tradition, the Albanians of Arbanasi came from countries Briska and Sestan. These locations were identified by some with the villages of Shestan, Brisk, and Arbnesh Liar, all located in the hinterland of Bar and Ulqin in Montenegro, but within areas inhabited by Albanians. A demonstration of the fact that the origin of the Albanians of Arbanasi were not located along the coast is that in their language most of the names of the fish comes from the Croatian.
After the Second World War, many Arbanasi emigrated to Italy, following the Yugoslav takeover of Zadar. In modern times about 4000 Arbanasi remain in Croatia

[Duke]

so quoting Wiki article is somehow a thread worthy?

At least you guessed a section.


he is Arbanas
http://www.vecernji.hr/slika-640x348/vijesti/u-kuloarima-bruji-smjeni-kalmeta-brani-livakovica-slika-7289

[Adrian]

Notable Arbanasi/Arbëresh

Andrea Aleksi

Andrea Nikollë Aleksi (1425–1505), also known as Andrea Alessi or Andrija Aleši, was an Albanian architect, painter and sculptor and considered one of the most prestigious artists of the Dalmatian Renaissance period.
He moved to Split in Dalmatia during the Republic of Venice, where he studied under sculptor Mark Troja. He lived most of his life and conducted much of his work in Dalmatia. Aleksi was a disciple of Giorgio da Sebenico and his best known work is with Nikola Firentinac on the expansion of the chapel of Blessed John of Trogir in 1468. Just like Cathedral of St. James in Šibenik, it was composed out of large stone blocks with extreme precision. It is unique harmony of architecture and sculpture according to antique ideals. From inside, there is no flat wall. In the middle of chapel, on the altar, lays the sarcophagus of blessed John of Trogir. Surrounding are reliefs of puttos carrying torches that look like they were peeping out of doors of Underworld. Above them there are niches with sculptures of Christ and apostles (the principle work of Aleksi), amongst them are putties, circular windows encircled with fruit garland, and a relief of Nativity. All is ceiled with coffered ceiling with image of God in the middle and 96 portrait heads of angels. With so many faces of smiling children the chapel looks very cheerful and there isn’t nothing similar in European art of that time.
Andrea is best known for his merchant statues in Ancona, Italy, and his 1454 mural paintings in a church on Arabe island of Dalmatia particularly The Baptistry of Trogir". He signed the Trogir Baptistery in 1467 with: ANDREAS ALEXIUS DURRACHINUS OPIFEX MCCCCXII (Andreas Alexius, artisan from Durrës, 1462).
He died in Durrës in 1505.

[Adrian]

Tomislav Ivčić

Tomislav Ivčić (January 6, 1953 – March 4, 1993) was a Croatian singer, songwriter and politician. He died in a car accident and is buried in Zagreb at the Mirogoj Cemetery.
A native of Zadar, Tomislav Ivčić became one of the most popular singers and songwriters during his appearances on 1970s pop music festivals. His specialty was pop music inspired by Dalmatian folklore. Ivčić also wrote and performed "Večeras je naša fešta", a song that would become a semi-official anthem of Dalmatia, often sung and performed whenever a Dalmatian athlete or sports team won a title or important game. He has written over two hundred songs and released twenty three albums during his career.
During the war in Croatia, Ivčić wrote the song "Stop the War in Croatia" which became a hit. It even charted in the Top 10 in Australia in 1991. In 1990, Ivčić also became a member of Croatian Democratic Union. He expressed his patriotism through the song "Bože čuvaj Hrvatsku", that would become semi-official anthem of his party. In February 1993 he ran as his party's candidate for House of Chambers of Croatian Parliament, and won a seat. A few weeks before he was supposed to take office and shortly after a Globus interview in which he was described as "first Croatian senator", his automobile was involved in traffic accident that would claim his and lives of three more people.
His older half-brother Đani Maršan is also an accomplished singer and songwriter, and his other older brother Vedran Ivčić, was, to a lesser degree, as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Tomislav_Iv%C4%8Di%C4%87_nadgrobna_plo%C4%8Da_Miro goj_lipanj_2008.jpg

[Adrian]

Božidar Kalmeta - Minister of the Sea, Transport and Infrastructure

Božidar Kalmeta (pronounced [bǒʒidar kâlmeta]) (born in Zadar, January 15, 1958) is a Croatian politician. He served from 2003 to 2008 as the Minister of the Sea, Tourism, Transport and Development and from 2008 to 2011 as the Minister of the Sea, Transport and Infrastructure and in the Croatian Government.

He graduated in 1982 from the University of Zagreb's Faculty of Agronomy.
From 1982 to 1993 he worked in his hometown Zadar as a manager at the Maraska distilling company (which produces the world famous Maraschino liqueur).

In 1989 he joined the Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) and in 1993 his full-time political career started after he was elected to the Zadar City Council. In 1994 he became Zadar's deputy mayor, and from 1994 to 2003 he served as mayor of the city.
From 1995 to 2003 he was also a member of the Croatian Parliament, serving as one of representatives from Zadar County. At the 7th HDZ Convention he was elected party's Vice-President, beating Ivić Pašalić, and is currently a member of the party's presidency.
After HDZ won the Croatian parliamentary elections of 2003, Kalmeta was appointed to the newly created post of Minister of the Sea, Tourism, Transport and Development (which was created by merging three separate ministries) under Prime Minister Ivo Sanader. One of the chief accomplishments credited to his ministry was the completion of the A1 Highway linking the country's two largest cities, Zagreb and Split. In the next elections of 2007 HDZ won again and Kalmeta kept his post under Ivo Sanader's second term in office.
In June 2007, Kalmeta's long time official driver, one Danijel Miočić from Zadar, was indicted for racketeering. He and three others were arrested when they took EUR 100,000 worth of bribe from a Cetingrad businessman, and the money was meant to secure work for the said person's company in public tenders run by Kalmeta's Ministry. Kalmeta stated that he had no knowledge of these acts, nor how his driver could have had any sway on the tenders. In November 2007, Miočić and six others were convicted in court. They appealed the conviction, but in October 2008/March 2009 the County court in Karlovac affirmed the conviction.
In February 2009, Kalmeta fired Davorin Kobak, the general manager of Croatian Railways, the national railway operator overseen by Kalmeta's Ministry, allegedly after a police wiretap operation uncovered a conspiracy to embezzle three million euros. In June, USKOK arrested Kobak and two others and charged them with embezzlement. In July and August, after the 2009 Rudine train derailment, Kalmeta intervened to replace several managers, and soon after, HŽ managers Ivan Medak, Drago Rogulj, Drago Ivanković were arrested for their role in causing the fatal Rudine accident, with several others.
In November 2009, Kalmeta's long-time associate the State Secretary Zdravko Livaković unexpectedly resigned and after that the Government fired much of the management of the public company Hrvatske autoceste, the largest recipient of Kalmeta's Ministry budget money. Soon afterwards, three former managers of Hrvatske autoceste, Jurica Prskalo, Mario Lovrinčević and Goran Legac, were arrested for embezzling over 21 million kuna on a public tender, together with a chief engineer Željko Kandžija and owner of a private construction company Slaven Žužul.
Kalmeta has consistently claimed he never knew about those affairs and has refused to take any kind of responsibility. President Stjepan Mesić was one of many who suggested Kalmeta needs to resign. After another railway accident on November 21 near Rijeka, the railway workers union sent an open letter of complaint to the minister. On December 11, 2009, Kalmeta underwent an interpellation and survived a vote of no confidence.
In December 2010, Kalmeta dismissed the last remaining member of the Board of Directors of Hrvatske autoceste, Josip Sapunar, after he was indicted for participating in a large-scale embezzlement scheme. The latter subsequently testified in USKOK and accused the minister of complicity.

[Duke]

I didnt know Ivčić was Arbanas, who is your source?

[Adrian]

I didnt know Ivčić was Arbanas, who is your source?

A site created by Arbëresh of Croatia - Zadarski Arbanasi!

http://zadarski-arbanasi.blog.hr/

[Duke]

A site created by Arbëresh of Croatia - Zadarski Arbanasi!

http://zadarski-arbanasi.blog.hr/

Most of these people already had slavic surnames, when they came.


Luca d'Andrea Gezghenovich, Nicolo di Luca Marghicevich, Nicolo d'Andrea Gasparovich, Giovanni d'Andrea Gezghenovich, Pere di Marco, Prem Vuca Marghicevich, Paolo Giech Marghicevich, Giech Prend Marghicevich, Giech Pepa Marghicevich, Marco Discialo Marghicevich, Prenz Prema Marghicevich, Petar Vuca Gianova, Nico Matessich, Luca Prend, Boso Nico Smira, Stanica Gielencovich, Visco Gielencovich, Lech Pero Marghicevich i Luca Lucich.

First settlers, bolded are with common Croatian Surnames, of course written by Venetian

[Adrian]

Most of these people already had slavic surnames, when they came

Slavic?!...you said that Croatians are not slavic people ;)

Seriously, their surnames are slavic because thay are asimilated albanians, but they know exactly who they are and don't deny it.

Edit - Remove vich suffix and you will find out!

[Duke]

Slavic?!...you said that Croatians are not slavic people ;)

Seriously, their surnames are slavic because thay are asimilated albanians, but they know exatly who they are and don't deny it.

Slavic is a language, and Croats are Slavic, i never denied that.
Still, first settlers had common Croatian names, and surnames, sufix or not they are Croatian surnames, and quite common.

BTW where did they get the suffix, those are Venetian records of first settlers

[Adrian]

Slavic is a language, and Croats are Slavic, i never denied that.
Still, first settlers had common Croatian names, and surnames, sufix or not they are Croatian surnames, and quite common.

BTW where did they get the suffix, those are Venetian records of first settlers

Suffix may be from the Byzantine period. At that time Albanians were mainly Orthodox and some of them were assimilated by Slavic people. There are a few surnames without suffix, too.

[Duke]

Suffix may be from the Byzantine period. At that time Albanians were mainly Orthodox and some of them were assimilated by Slavic people. There are a few surnames without suffix, too.

But these surnames are spread all over Croatia, and Croats, as well as Arbanas are/were Catholic.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Their language is bit of Turkish, mixed with some standard Croatian, and mostly Dalmatian dialect


Govor u zadarskim Arbanasima arhaična je mješavina nastala pri susretu uglavnom gegskog narječja s jezicima nove domovine. Listajući Rječnik govora zadarskih Arbanasa dr. Krune Krstića nailazi se na riječi različitog podrijetla. Imamo tako turski adet (običaj), aferim (živ bio!), caush (glasnik čauš), coshe (kut), dimie (dimije), fishek (fišek), gajtan (pletena vrpca), gjuvegi (mladenac).
Dalmatinske su riječi: brushki (četka), buculaj (slatki kolač), but (bačva), butig (dućan), butir (maslac), carz (vunena suknja), cat (vrsta dinje), cerod (voštano platno), cimatorje (groblje), cakull (brbljanje, "ćakula"), damizhon (pletenka, "demižon"), denjat (udostojiti se), deshperat (očajavati), dizhgrocje (nesreća), dogan (carinarnica), dret (ravno), duzin (tuce, "duzina"), faculet (rubac), fang (mulj), fashat (poviti), forc (snaga), fortun (nevrijeme, "fortunal"), fregat (ribati), fumat (pušiti), fundac (talog kave), gabju (krletka), garbu (ugljen), gorn (oluk) itd.
Kao primjer posuđivanja iz hrvatskog jezika navodi se: brutulic (kosirić za branje), bunor (bunar), corët (slijep), did (djed), dimnjok (dimnjak), ditel (djetelina), divlo (divlji), dobi (dobitak), dumboko (dubok), gaxua (kazati), gerc (grč), gerzat (ugristi), grabi (otimačina), gusël (gusle).
»Arbanasi govore i hrvatski«, piše don Mijo Ćurković, »istom onom lakoćom kao i arbanaški, ali ga ne govore pravilno. Imade ih i koji znadu i talijanski, a težaci ga razumiju, ali ga ne umiju govoriti. Arbanasi su rimokatoličke vjere i tvrdi katolici. Nije se nigda čulo da je u Varoši bilo inovjeraca, nit da se je koja djevojka udala za inovjerca. Arbanas ne znade nego za arbanašku narodnost. On je po vjeri katolik«.

[Adrian]

But these surnames are spread all over Croatia, and Croats, as well as Arbanas are/were Catholic.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Why Lol?

I said during Byzantine Emipre albanians were mainly orthodox and it doesn't meand all of them were orthodox. Arebreshes in Croatia and Italy belonged to Chatolic religion as well as Ghegs in Albania.

[Duke]

Why Lol?

I said during Byzantine Emipre albanians were mainly orthodox and it doesn't meand all of them were orthodox. Arebreshes in Croatia and Italy belonged to Chatolic religion as well as Ghegs in Albania.

But their language is basically Dalmatian dialect, spoken not only in Arbanasi, but over whole Dalmatia, and even Istria has similar one

[Adrian]

Their language is bit of Turkish, mixed with some standard Croatian, and mostly Dalmatian dialect

No, their language is pure albanian and doesn't have anything turkish on it. Thay use turkish words as much as serbians, bulgarians, montenegrins and albanians use.

Duke, I have to go now. I will bring a lot of materials and famous arbereshes that contributed a lot for Croatia...and you didn't recognise them till now. Same like that arberesh singer.

[Duke]

No, their language is pure albanian and doesn't have anything turkish on it. Thay use turkish word as much as you, serbians, bulgarians, montenegrins and albanians use.

I know, i listed turkish words they used from the article, but their language is dalmatian dialect.

[Duke]

Duke, I have to go now. I will bring a lot of materials and famous arbereshes that contributed a lot for Croatia...and you didn't recognise them till now. Same like that arberesh singer.

He is not Šiptar lol, he is Croat

[Adrian]

But their language is basically Dalmatian dialect, spoken not only in Arbanasi, but over whole Dalmatia, and even Istria has similar one

Of course thay speak Dalmatian dialect. There is nothing to be surprised.


He is not Šiptar lol, he is Croat

Ok, if you say so! lol

Duke, thay know better that you and me who thay are.

[Duke]

Of course thay speak Dalmatian dialect. There is nothing to be surprised.


.

No, their language is same as dalmatian dialect, with a bit of variation, but still understandable

[Duke]

Arbanas look like Croats, and speak dalmatian dialect which they call Arbanas language, and its fully understandable to most of Dalmatians, and Istrians

Arbanas
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgEPKlOyZ4hoAKai_jBlvGdlQWCpeAW ydB6yc5S2dYzcPnABmD

Croat
http://www.radiosarajevo.ba/img/s/459x254/upload/images/SPORT/Senjanin_Maglajlija.jpg

[Prengs]

Arbanas look like Croats, and speak dalmatian dialect which they call Arbanas language, and its fully understandable to most of Dalmatians, and Istrians


So after Arvanites, now you claim on Arbanas LOL

[Duke]

So after Arvanites, now you claim on Arbanas LOL

Arbanas are by nationality Croats, and their language is like ours.

I also posted that their names are also.

Arbanas is like Dalmatian, Istrian, ...etc just another Illyrian tribe name :D

[Rron]

So after Arvanites, now you claim on Arbanas LOL
His claims on Arvanites are based only by one village name in Greece which is named by one croat pasha called Harvatpasha, and name harvat and Arvanites dont have anything in common lol

[Panopticon]

The Arbanasi came from the Shkodra area mainly. Arbanasi was commonly used for Albanians by Slavs.

Arbanasi dialect: http://www.albanianlanguage.net/dialects/HR-IT/index.html

[Duke]

His claims on Arvanites are based only by one village name in Greece which is named by one croat pasha called Harvatpasha, and name harvat and Arvanites dont have anything in common lol

nope dont twist my words, or sources to suit your needs.


Hrvat pasha is unknown( he is listed as posible theory, but that guy dont exist in history books), and thats just for Arvanite district in Athens named Harvati, it also doesnt explain other villages named Harvati, where ever Arvanites were.

There is also Harvati lower, and upper, in southern Greece, and trough lower ones goes Rally

[Kanuni]

nope dont twist my words, or sources to suit your needs.


Hrvat pasha is unknown( he is listed as posible theory, but that guy dont exist in history books), and thats just for Arvanite district in Athens named Harvati, it also doesnt explain other villages named Harvati, where ever Arvanites were.

There is also Harvati lower, and upper, in southern Greece, and trough lower ones goes Rally

Duke i don't mind funny trolls at all but you are very annoying.

[dralos]

nope dont twist my words, or sources to suit your needs.


Hrvat pasha is unknown( he is listed as posible theory, but that guy dont exist in history books), and thats just for Arvanite district in Athens named Harvati, it also doesnt explain other villages named Harvati, where ever Arvanites were.

There is also Harvati lower, and upper, in southern Greece, and trough lower ones goes Rally
dude be serious,what do you have incommon with arvanites,we have traditions,custom,languages and everything in common with arbanasi:)
here is an important article about zadar and her arbanasi
The main goal is to bring the Albanians from Kosovo in the Zadar area. I want them to come more to fill the city. Albanians in Zadar have more than 200 companies and craftsmen, many of them from Kosovo wants to be a problem getting work visas will now be much easier to solve due to the recent opening of the Embassy of the Republic of Kosovo in Zagreb - Shala says Adam, president of the Albanian Zadar County.




Nurturing the tradition and culture



Albanian Association of Shale election for president a few months ago, was better organized than ever, and will, among other things, paying their own space to work with the Association since it is not the City can get.

- City Council cares for the space of the Albanian national minority, but the Council is another body. We come into their office, but members of the Association can not enforce their programs to fit the space where one table and eight chairs. That's why we pay ourselves the space in which, above all, to have the Albanian language classes for children, but also exhibitions, literary evenings and socializing Albanians - says 40-year old Shala from Drenica in Kosovo.

He emphasizes that the Albanians in the Zadar area, which is about two thousand, and expanded activities, in addition to bakers, jewelers and confectioners, significantly increased the number of retailers and builders.

- We will all give something, and we pay our space. Tradition, language and culture we can not cultivate without a club with a library, computers, children's playground - Shala said, and I own construction company. The arrival of Albanians from Kosovo need a tourist visa, but Shala stressed that it is necessary for the guarantee letter.

- Tourist visa is complicated, and working visas to us is the biggest problem and we will do everything to simplify its getting through the new embassy - said Adam Shala.

Zadar Albanians under the new leadership is strongly linked Albanian Association of Croatian war veterans. With sukošanskoga cemetery in the joint organization of a few days ago exhumations Veterans Albanians, who was later buried in Kosovo


http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Zadar/tabid/73/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/93791/Default.aspx

[Duke]

Duke i don't mind funny trolls at all but you are very annoying.

I am just stating the facts

Also, another thing, bishop of Dioclea, in his 11th century work, lists Albania as part of Red Croatia. (Chronicle of Dioclea)

http://cro-eu.com/galerija-fotografija/albums/userpics/10001/Bijela_i_crvena_Hrvatska.jpg

Red meaning south, and in this map Croatia basically equals illyricum.


map is made on basis of his work

[Guapo]

This is ridiculous, now we need a Croatian moderator. I nominate myself.

[Rron]

........

[dralos]

i can be croatian moderator,i'm illyrian,guapo you're noridic,so you can't

[Guapo]

i can be croatian moderator,i'm illyrian,guapo you're noridic,so you can't

Nonsense, you are banned for 7 nights.

[Duke]

i can be croatian moderator,i'm illyrian,guapo you're noridic,so you can't

naa, you are šiptar

[Duke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement

[dralos]

naa, you are šiptar
you're illyrian,i'm illyrian so i can be:D

[Guapo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement

Croatian: Ilirski pokret, Slovene: Ilirsko gibanje Serb: Ilirska gibanica

[Duke]

you're illyrian,i'm illyrian so i can be:D

True, but you are overly emotional

[dralos]

True, but you are overly emotional
when i become cromod i become nonemotional like an assassin:D

[Guapo]

when i become cromod i become nonemotional like an assassin:D

dream on

[Duke]

when i become cromod i become nonemotional like an assassin:D

Is it a promise?

[dralos]

Is it a promise?
it is,brother illyrian:thumb001:

[Rron]

naa, you are šiptar
Which have origin of latin word excipio and dont have cognates in iran like your name



Etymology of croat name
[quote]Etymologically, the name is probably ultimately cognate with Arachosia, from the Old Iranian name of the Helmand River.
Arachosia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Afghanistan_region_during_500_BC.jpg
Helmand river
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Helmandrivermap.png

[Duke]

it is,brother illyrian:thumb001:

ok here you are a song from ours Japodi tribe :D

UvWPlOBxiRk


and shout from Dalmats!
ZSvrZJ2lws8

[dralos]

ok here you are a song from ours Japodi tribe :D

UvWPlOBxiRk


and shout from Dalmats!
ZSvrZJ2lws8
don't be stating a clan war,my clan is too big to handle it's covers great parts of monte,kosova and albania:D

[Duke]

don't be stating a clan war,my clan is too big to handle it's covers great parts of monte,kosova and albania:D

all your clan are belong to us

[Rron]

it is,brother illyrian:thumb001:
dralos he is not Illyrian whats wrong with you they came here in 7 century


In the early 7th century the Croats arrived in area of present-day Croatia. They organised the state into two dukedoms by the 9th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia

[dralos]

all your clan are belong to us
if you mean us by illyrians then yes,all our clans are illyrians:D

[Duke]

if you mean us by illyrians then yes,all our clans are illyrians:D

Its a roman name, your real name is Hrvati

[Dilberth]

Arbanasi see themselves as Croats,they have absolutely no connection with modern day Albania,if you tell them they are Albanians they will probably kill you.Just walk into their district in Zadar and try to call them Shiptars,and see what happens.;)

[dralos]

Its a roman name, your real name is Hrvati
LOL hrvati,why i have to think about ajvar:D
dude i'm a nigger here

[Duke]

Arbanasi see themselves as Croats,they have absolutely no connection with modern day Albania,if you tell them they are Albanians they will probably kill you.Just walk into their district in Zadar and try to call them Shiptars,and see what happens.;)

They are actually hard-core Croats, haha

[Rron]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Arbanon_location_%28Albania_11th_century_AD%29.png
Location of Arbanon in 11 century.

[Heretik]

Arbanasi see themselves as Croats,they have absolutely no connection with modern day Albania,if you tell them they are Albanians they will probably kill you.Just walk into their district in Zadar and try to call them Shiptars,and see what happens.;)

Absolutely. None of them even speak any sort of albanian nor do their elders remember of speaking any albanian. I can see albos trying to claim other territories now. :laugh:
Serbia ain't enough for your lebensraum? :D

[dralos]

Absolutely. None of them even speak any sort of albanian nor do their elders remember of speaking any albanian. I can see albos trying to claim other territories now. :laugh:
Serbia ain't enough for your lebensraum? :D
nobody is claiming pieces of croatia but those people are of albanian ancestry like the arvanites

[Duke]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Arbanon_location_%28Albania_11th_century_AD%29.png

Yes, and these were Arbanas who moved out after Turks came, and death of Scanderbeg


Absolutely. None of them even speak any sort of albanian nor do their elders remember of speaking any albanian. I can see albos trying to claim other territories now. :laugh:
Serbia ain't enough for your lebensraum? :D

Arbanaški ti je zapravo nešto ala bodulski.

Posta san bija prve Arbanaške doseljenike u Zadar, svi imaju naša imena i prezimena, i par Venecijanskih

[Ushtari]

lol you guyz still feeding teh troll? https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

[Duke]

nobody is claiming pieces of croatia but those people are of albanian ancestry like the arvanites

yes they came from Albania, but they are not Šiptars, they are like uber nationalistic Croats, thats why this thread is funny to me.

[Duke]

lol you guyz still feeding teh troll? https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

Since when was posting facts, trolling?

[Heretik]

nobody is claiming pieces of croatia but those people are of albanian ancestry like the arvanites

It starts like that, the next step is claiming pieces of somebody's land. People know your modus operandi mate. ;)


Yes, and these were Arbanas who moved out after Turks came, and death of Scanderbeg



Arbanaški ti je zapravo nešto ala bodulski.

Posta san bija prve Arbanaške doseljenike u Zadar, svi imaju naša imena i prezimena, i par Venecijanskih

Ma znam, ali neka prezimena su kroatizirana i očito strana (recimo, Šestan ili Kalmeta) no kroz generacije mislim da kod njih nije ostalo ni a od albanaca. Jebemti, ovi šipci mi kao srbi dođu skoro. :D Već dugi niz godina govorim da trebamo sagraditi ogroman betonski zid oko granica i ostaviti tek nekoliko graničnih prijelaza tj. rupa u zidu. :D

[Rron]

What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the 11th century.
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

Arbër, Arbën, Arbëreshë; the old native term denoting ancient and medieval Albanians and sharing the same root with the latter. At the time the country was called Arbër (Gheg: Arbën) and Arbëria (Gheg: Arbënia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians

[Duke]

It starts like that, the next step is claiming pieces of somebody's land. People know your modus operandi mate. ;)



Ma znam, ali neka prezimena su kroatizirana i očito strana (recimo, Šestan ili Kalmeta) no kroz generacije mislim da kod njih nije ostalo ni a od albanaca. Jebemti, ovi šipci mi kao srbi dođu skoro. :D Već dugi niz godina govorim da trebamo sagraditi ogroman betonski zid oko granica i ostaviti tek nekoliko graničnih prijelaza tj. rupa u zidu. :D

Šestan znači sladak, znaci kad nekome kažeš da je šestan onda mu kažeš da je smišan, ili šesna ako se obračaš ženskoj.

Inače rič dolazi od riči šesna, koja se koristi u brodogradnji, za ona iskrivljena rebra, koja su elegantnog oblika

:D

[Rron]

lol you guyz still feeding teh troll? https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif
Lol just realised that he is more stupid than earlier.

[Duke]

Lol just realised that he is more stupid than earlier.

Here is a task for you

Tell to the Arbanas he is a Šiptar, and then try to stay alive as long as possible

[Rron]

Here is a task for you

Tell to the Arbanas he is a Šiptar, and then try to stay alive as long as possible
Ajt glavonjo go in your Iran

[dralos]

Here is a task for you

Tell to the Arbanas he is a Šiptar, and then try to stay alive as long as possible
lol how many times,we heard these tell it to...and see if you stay alive,i would tell them and probably would be quite alright after:D

[Duke]

lol how many times,we heard these tell it to...and see if you stay alive,i would tell them and probably would be quite alright after:D

yea, you are right, he would probably just insult you, but thats just a figure of speech

[Heretik]

Šestan znači sladak, znack kad nekome kažeš da je šestan onda mu kažeš da je smišan, ili šesna ako se obračaš ženskoj.

Inače rič dolazi od riči šesna, koja se koristi u brodogradnji, za ona iskrivljena rebra, koja su elegantnog oblika

:D

Iz Primorja sam pa znam značenje ali čini mi se da nije našeg porijekla riječ. Korijen mi se čini apsolutno neslavenskim jelte. A i imam prijatelja čija je majka Šestan i on sam veli da je iz Arbanasa ili tog nekog sela. :D
Iako, znam i nekoliko Šestana koji su iz Samobora i tog dijela Hrvatske pa ću ostaviti to otvorenim jer ne bi htio kategorički tvrditi. ;)

[dralos]

yea, you are right, he would probably just insult you, but thats just a figure of speech
if he was smart he wouldn't insult me,he probably just would say why,i would say...and he says oke i'm one:D

[Duke]

Iz Primorja sam pa znam značenje ali čini mi se da nije našeg porijekla riječ. Korijen mi se čini apsolutno neslavenskim jelte. A i imam prijatelja čija je majka Šestan i on sam veli da je iz Arbanasa ili tog nekog sela. :D
Iako, znam i nekoliko Šestana koji su iz Samobora i tog dijela Hrvatske pa ću ostaviti to otvorenim jer ne bi htio kategorički tvrditi. ;)

ali je koristimo samo mi, znači mogla je doč samo odavde, mada to je i očito pošto ta rič vjerojatno nije postojala u starocrkvenoslavenskom pa da bi se zaminila

[Heretik]

if he was smart he wouldn't insult me,he probably just would say why,i would say...and he says oke i'm one:D

Or maybe not... :D

[Heretik]

ali je koristimo samo mi, znači mogla je doč samo odavde, mada to je i očito pošto ta rič vjerojatno nije postojala u starocrkvenoslavenskom pa da bi se zaminila

Ubav? :D

[Duke]

if he was smart he wouldn't insult me,he probably just would say why,i would say...and he says oke i'm one:D

he would insult you, sorry, but its the truth.

If he was more polite, he would just ignore you

[dralos]

Or maybe not... :D
if not,i would treat him/her a beer,bcs he was friendly to listen to me:D

[Duke]

Ubav? :D

obrazloži?

nekužiš, rič šestan je doša u obliku metafore za nekog ko je šestan jel :D

U orginalnom značenju je dio broda

[Heretik]

if not,i would treat him/her a beer,bcs he was friendly to listen to me:D

Before or after you piss your pants? :D People from those areas aren't known as the most civilized ones fyi. ;)

[Heretik]

obrazloži?

Ubav = lijep, sladak, mio = šesan. :D
Ubav cvijetak, ubav leptir i slično.

[dralos]

Before or after you piss your pants? :D People from those areas aren't known as the most civilized ones fyi. ;)
LOL why would i piss my pants,i'm not scarred of croats:D
again LOL

[Heretik]

obrazloži?

nekužiš, riš šestan je doša u obliku metafore za nekog ko je šestan jel :D

Hoćeš reći Šestani su šesni a prije su bili bez prezimena? :D

[Duke]

Ubav = lijep, sladak, mio = šesan. :D
Ubav cvijetak, ubav leptir i slično.

ma da, ali san ti objasnija u editu

[Duke]

Hoćeš reći Šestani su šesni a prije su bili bez prezimena? :D

Naravno ko i svi ostali, mada je moglo i doč od familijarnog nadimka.

[Heretik]

LOL why would i piss my pants,i'm not scarred of croats:D
again LOL

Generally you would be right but these parts around Zadar... They are, let's say, nationally VERY aware. Oh you albos... Why do you always come in packs?

[Heretik]

ma da, ali san ti objasnija u editu


Naravno ko i svi ostali, mada je moglo i doč od familijarnog nadimka.

To i dalje ne znači da je riječ Hrvatskog podrijetla. ;)
Moje prezime je 100% Hrvatsko a siguran sam da nije slavenskog podrijetla.

[dralos]

Generally you would be right but these parts around Zadar... They are, let's say, nationally VERY aware. Oh you albos... Why do you always come in packs?
dude packs or not i wouldn't be scarred,believe me,i've seen much worser things then a croat:D

[Dilberth]

LOL why would i piss my pants,i'm not scarred of croats:D
again LOL

Come to Zadar,call them Albos and see what happens;)
It's easy to be a though guy on the internet:p

[dralos]

Come to Zadar,call them Albos and see what happens;)
It's easy to be a though guy on the internet:p
i'm no tough guy but i wouldn't be scarred of croats:D
i respect people and avoid fights,i like to use my brains to solve a dispute:thumb001:

[Duke]

To i dalje ne znači da je riječ Hrvatskog podrijetla. ;)
Moje prezime je 100% Hrvatsko a siguran sam da nije slavenskog podrijetla.

Hrvatskog je podritla, pošto tu rič samo Hrvati koriste, tj, nemože bit Hrvatskija, hehe, te večina prezimena su ionako samo patronimi sa dodatkom

[Heretik]

dude packs or not i wouldn't be scarred,believe me,i've seen much worser things then a croat:D

You haven't seen these ones mate. :laugh:
They radiate an aura of fear and horror around themselves, local people often think they turn to wolves when the moon is full. :D I say, I would shit my pants, but you are fearless so you'll be ok. Come and visit and try explaining to a few locals that they are actually albanian. :thumb001:

[dralos]

nope dont twist my words, or sources to suit your needs.


Hrvat pasha is unknown( he is listed as posible theory, but that guy dont exist in history books), and thats just for Arvanite district in Athens named Harvati, it also doesnt explain other villages named Harvati, where ever Arvanites were.

There is also Harvati lower, and upper, in southern Greece, and trough lower ones goes Rally
dude be serious,what do you have incommon with arvanites,we have traditions,custom,languages and everything in common with arbanasi:)
here is an important article about zadar and her arbanasi
The main goal is to bring the Albanians from Kosovo in the Zadar area. I want them to come more to fill the city. Albanians in Zadar have more than 200 companies and craftsmen, many of them from Kosovo wants to be a problem getting work visas will now be much easier to solve due to the recent opening of the Embassy of the Republic of Kosovo in Zagreb - Shala says Adam, president of the Albanian Zadar County.




Nurturing the tradition and culture



Albanian Association of Shale election for president a few months ago, was better organized than ever, and will, among other things, paying their own space to work with the Association since it is not the City can get.

- City Council cares for the space of the Albanian national minority, but the Council is another body. We come into their office, but members of the Association can not enforce their programs to fit the space where one table and eight chairs. That's why we pay ourselves the space in which, above all, to have the Albanian language classes for children, but also exhibitions, literary evenings and socializing Albanians - says 40-year old Shala from Drenica in Kosovo.

He emphasizes that the Albanians in the Zadar area, which is about two thousand, and expanded activities, in addition to bakers, jewelers and confectioners, significantly increased the number of retailers and builders.

- We will all give something, and we pay our space. Tradition, language and culture we can not cultivate without a club with a library, computers, children's playground - Shala said, and I own construction company. The arrival of Albanians from Kosovo need a tourist visa, but Shala stressed that it is necessary for the guarantee letter.

- Tourist visa is complicated, and working visas to us is the biggest problem and we will do everything to simplify its getting through the new embassy - said Adam Shala.

Zadar Albanians under the new leadership is strongly linked Albanian Association of Croatian war veterans. With sukošanskoga cemetery in the joint organization of a few days ago exhumations Veterans Albanians, who was later buried in Kosovo


http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Zadar/tabid/73/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/93791/Default.aspx

[Heretik]

Hrvatskog je podritla, pošto tu rič samo Hrvati koriste, te večina prezimena su ionako samo patronimi sa dodatkom

Vrlo diskutabilno ali kao što sam rekao, neću kategorički tvrditi. ;)

[dralos]

You haven't seen these ones mate. :laugh:
They radiate an aura of fear and horror around themselves, local people often think they turn to wolves when the moon is full. :D I say, I would shit my pants, but you are fearless so you'll be ok. Come and visit and try explaining to a few locals that they are actually albanian. :thumb001:
you clearly haven't seen north albania:D

[Duke]

dude be serious,what do you have incommon with arvanites,we have traditions,custom,languages and everything in common with arbanasi:)
here is an important article about zadar and her arbanasi
The main goal is to bring the Albanians from Kosovo in the Zadar area. I want them to come more to fill the city. Albanians in Zadar have more than 200 companies and craftsmen, many of them from Kosovo wants to be a problem getting work visas will now be much easier to solve due to the recent opening of the Embassy of the Republic of Kosovo in Zagreb - Shala says Adam, president of the Albanian Zadar County.




Nurturing the tradition and culture



Albanian Association of Shale election for president a few months ago, was better organized than ever, and will, among other things, paying their own space to work with the Association since it is not the City can get.

- City Council cares for the space of the Albanian national minority, but the Council is another body. We come into their office, but members of the Association can not enforce their programs to fit the space where one table and eight chairs. That's why we pay ourselves the space in which, above all, to have the Albanian language classes for children, but also exhibitions, literary evenings and socializing Albanians - says 40-year old Shala from Drenica in Kosovo.

He emphasizes that the Albanians in the Zadar area, which is about two thousand, and expanded activities, in addition to bakers, jewelers and confectioners, significantly increased the number of retailers and builders.

- We will all give something, and we pay our space. Tradition, language and culture we can not cultivate without a club with a library, computers, children's playground - Shala said, and I own construction company. The arrival of Albanians from Kosovo need a tourist visa, but Shala stressed that it is necessary for the guarantee letter.

- Tourist visa is complicated, and working visas to us is the biggest problem and we will do everything to simplify its getting through the new embassy - said Adam Shala.

Zadar Albanians under the new leadership is strongly linked Albanian Association of Croatian war veterans. With sukošanskoga cemetery in the joint organization of a few days ago exhumations Veterans Albanians, who was later buried in Kosovo


http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Zadar/tabid/73/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/93791/Default.aspx

hahaha


Albanians=Šiptars=/=Arbanas

He is not Arbanas but Šiptar, he is also one of the representatives of Šiptar minority in Croatia

[Heretik]

you clearly haven't seen north albania:D

I don't need to see it to be aware of it's notoriety as you should be aware of certain parts of Croatia and it's notoriety.

[dralos]

I don't need to see it to be aware of it's notoriety as you should be aware of certain parts of Croatia and it's notoriety.
those parts of croatia are pussies compared to northalbania:D

[Duke]

Vrlo diskutabilno ali kao što sam rekao, neću kategorički tvrditi. ;)

Gle ako niko drugi nego Hrvati koriste tu rič, onda je Hrvatskog podritla, a rič se koristi po ciloj obali

[Heretik]

I can agree to that, Albania is well known for it's backwards customs and rituals. Luckily, Croatia entered the 21st century, just barely, but we did; physically and mentally.
Let us talk in a couple of centuries when you enter the 20th century at least. ;)

[dralos]

I can agree to that, Albania is well known for it's backwards customs and rituals. Luckily, Croatia entered the 21st century, just barely, but we did; physically and mentally.
Let us talk in a couple of centuries when you enter the 20th century at least. ;)
LOL,weren't you braging about the arbanasi as being tough guys now don't be acting like a pussy be a man,try to act for one time as a true balkanite:D

[Heretik]

Gle ako niko drugi nego Hrvati koriste tu rič, onda je Hrvatskog podritla, a rič se koristi po ciloj obali

A jebemu mater sad, jel' moguće da nije našeg porijekla nego predslavenska riječ koja se zadržala u narodu dugi niz godina? Pogledaj članaka na, khm, khm, wikipediji o Arbanasima, onako, usput (Arbanasi-Sestani - Skadar)

[Duke]

A jebemu mater sad, jel' moguće da nije našeg porijekla nego predslavenska riječ koja se zadržala u narodu dugi niz godina? Pogledaj članaka na, khm, khm, wikipediji o Arbanasima, onako, usput (Arbanasi-Sestani - Skadar)

Pa jest predslavenska, nisan ni tvrdija da nije, još san ti lipo napomenija da vjerojatno nije postojala u SCS da bi se mogla zaminit

[Heretik]

LOL,weren't you braging about the arbanasi as being tough guys now don't be acting like a pussy be a man,try to act for one time as a true balkanite:D

I was not bragging, I dislike violent and uncivilized men, but on the other hand, what's a smart man's shame it's a fool's pride and joy, or as you said, northern Albania.

[Heretik]

Pa jest predslavenska, nisan ni tvrdija da nije

Pa to kažem jebemu. :D :D :D
A sad, sve koje znam a da se prezivaju Šestan su Hrvati, i to nadpolovičnom većinom ultradesničari. :D :D

[dralos]

I was not bragging, I dislike violent and uncivilized men, but on the other hand, what's a smart man's shame it's a fool's pride and joy, or as you said, northern Albania.
north albas are tough guys but they're super smart and earn lots of bucks,like the albs in croatia do or those in zadar:D

[Heretik]

north albas are tough guys but they're super smart and earn lots of bucks,like the albs in croatia do or those in zadar:D

Ah, criminals mostly. Excellent, brag some more.

[Duke]

Pa to kažem jebemu. :D :D :D
A sad, sve koje znam a da se prezivaju Šestan su Hrvati, i to nadpolovičnom većinom ultradesničari. :D :D

Pa kad jesu Hrvati.

Posta več san bija da sva Arvantska naselja po grčkoj( neka čak od antike), i Arvantsko predgrađe u Ateni se zove Harvati.

[Dilberth]

north albas are tough guys but they're super smart and earn lots of bucks,like the albs in croatia do or those in zadar:D

Arbanasi are Croats,not Albos;)

[dralos]

Ah, criminals mostly. Excellent, brag some more.
are albs in croatia criminals,haven't you seen the article?
and north albs aren't criminals they just know how to earn money:thumb001:

[Heretik]

Pa kad jesu Hrvati.

Posta več san bija da sva Arvantska naselja po grčkoj, i Arvantsko predgrađe u Ateni se zove Harvati.

Ha čuj, nomen est omen, a prilično je sličnog prizvuka. :D

[dralos]

Arbanasi are Croats,not Albos;)
LOL did you use the pic of an albo as your avatar:D

[Heretik]

are albs in croatia criminals,

Not all but plenty.

[dralos]

Not all but plenty.
you just say these bcs they have money:D

[Heretik]

you just say these bcs they have money:D

No, I say that because I know a few and I know what sort of business are they in to. As simple as that.

[Duke]

Ha čuj, nomen est omen, a prilično je sličnog prizvuka. :D

kad pogledaš, prva Hrvatsko vojvodstvo sa nalazi točno na područiju Liburna, sa svim važnin Liburnskin gradovima i mistima( Krk, Nin, Skradin, Knin), poslin se ostala plemena oslobađaju od bizanta i pridružuju, te se širimo.

6-7 stoliče

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/700/700.jpg

7-8 stoliče

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/800.jpg

[Panopticon]

Obviously the Arbanasi descend from Albanian immigrants in the 1600-1700s.They're not Albanians today, but descend from Albanians. It's just a historical curiousity, not some attempt at claiming land - as if the possibility of such a motive makes it less true. There's only about 4000 of them in Croatia, so there wouldn't be any basis for an attempt at taking land from a country which doesn't even border any Albanian territory.

That said - there still are Arbanasi who speak their form of Albanian. Like the ones here: http://www.albanianlanguage.net/dialects/HR-IT/index.html

[dralos]

No, I say that because I know a few and I know what sort of business are they in to. As simple as that.
lol,why do all albanian haters all of sudden know albanians:D
i know plenty too,i see them in my city in kosova,they are all nice people,drive nice cars :D

[Heretik]

Obviously the Arbanasi descend from Albanian immigrants in the 1600-1700s. It's just a historical curiousity, not some attempt at claiming land - as if the possibility of such a motive makes it less true. There's only about 4000 of them in Croatia, so there wouldn't be any basis for an attempt at taking land from a country which doesn't even border any Albanian territory.

Today they have absolutely no relations to Albania nor do they consider themselves Albanian. That's the whole point... I seriously doubt that there is any pure Croat (Serb, Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek...) living nowadays.

[Heretik]

lol,why do all albanian haters all of sudden know albanians:D
i know plenty too,i see them in my city in kosova,they are all nice people,drive nice cars :D

I do not hate Albanians in general but those I know haven't proved themselves as trust-worthy and/or decent people.

[dralos]

I do not hate Albanians in general but those I know haven't proved themselves as trust-worthy and/or decent people.
why would you hang out then with criminal albs go meet good albs:D
mark marku is albanian too,he's good ahahahah

[Panopticon]

Today they have absolutely no relations to Albania nor do they consider themselves Albanian. That's the whole point... I seriously doubt that there is any pure Croat (Serb, Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek...) living nowadays.

Yes, I do understand that, and I don't think anyone else is claiming them as Albanians - just that their forefathers were.

[Heretik]

why would you hang out then with criminal albs go meet good albs:D
mark marku is albanian too,he's good ahahahah

I never said I hang out with them, I am sure you met some people in your life you know many things about but do not socialize with them.

[Heretik]

Yes, I do understand that, and I don't think anyone else is claiming them as Albanians - just that their forefathers were.

Please re-read the thread. :D

[Duke]

Obviously the Arbanasi descend from Albanian immigrants in the 1600-1700s.They're not Albanians today, but descend from Albanians. It's just a historical curiousity, not some attempt at claiming land - as if the possibility of such a motive makes it less true. There's only about 4000 of them in Croatia, so there wouldn't be any basis for an attempt at taking land from a country which doesn't even border any Albanian territory.

That said - there still are Arbanasi who speak their form of Albanian. Like the ones here: http://www.albanianlanguage.net/dialects/HR-IT/index.html

They dont descend from Šiptars




Luca d'Andrea Gezghenovich, Nicolo di Luca Marghicevich, Nicolo d'Andrea Gasparovich, Giovanni d'Andrea Gezghenovich, Pere di Marco, Prem Vuca Marghicevich, Paolo Giech Marghicevich, Giech Prend Marghicevich, Giech Pepa Marghicevich, Marco Discialo Marghicevich, Prenz Prema Marghicevich, Petar Vuca Gianova, Nico Matessich, Luca Prend, Boso Nico Smira, Stanica Gielencovich, Visco Gielencovich, Lech Pero Marghicevich i Luca Lucich.

First Arbanas settlers in Zadar, bolded are common Croatian Surnames, of course recorded by Venetians

[Heretik]

Surnames surely do not sound even remotely Albanian.

[Duke]

Surnames surely do not sound even remotely Albanian.

they are patronims mostly, and very frequent here, but also names like Boso-Božo, Visco-Visko..itd

[Heretik]

Gielencovich - Jelenković? :D

http://virovitica.info/media/pictures/paragraph_normal/1437-1-1213529168.jpg

[dralos]

Surnames surely do not sound even remotely Albanian.
i would be worried about those albs in zadar who have money and are building all kinds of things:D

[Heretik]

i would be worried about those albs in zadar who have money and are building all kinds of things:D

I wouldn't, they pose no threat as long as they have their legitimate businesses. We had bigger threats in the past couple of decades and we have proven we can deal with them. :thumb001:

[Rron]

Albanians dont feed the trolls here, let them brain masturbate this dudes were claiming even for Arvanites and even glavonja called Duke posted map and said Albania is Croatia , so dont feed their idiocy .

[dralos]

I wouldn't, they pose no threat as long as they have their legitimate businesses. We had bigger threats in the past couple of decades and we have proven we can deal with them. :thumb001:
i was jk,lol albs and cros have no problems so why would we make one:D

[Heretik]

Albanians dont feed the trolls here, let them brain masturbate this dudes were claiming even for Arvanites and even glavonja called Duke posted map and said Albania is Croatia , so dont feed their idiocy .

Yes, Albanians, please leave the Croatian subforum in calm and orderly fashion.

[Duke]

Gielencovich - Jelenković? :D

http://virovitica.info/media/pictures/paragraph_normal/1437-1-1213529168.jpg

WG9b29iXdk4

[dralos]

Yes, Albanians, please leave the Croatian subforum in calm and orderly fashion.
we leave like the wildes from zadar:D

[Heretik]

WG9b29iXdk4

Ne slušam domaće baš ali mi nije ta loša. Jebote, vi Dalmatinci sve neke tužne pjevače imate, gdje su nestali veselje, more, riba, gradele, barka, žene? :D Sve je to Toma Bebić kriv! :D

[Panopticon]

They dont descend from Šiptars





First Arbanas settlers in Zadar, bolded are common Croatian Surnames, of course recorded by Venetians

They do descend from Albanian immigrants. Arbanasi is what Slavs called Albanians.
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

Source (http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1000.html)

One Arbanasi certainly thinks he does, and he has genealogic proof of that, ironically a descendant of the aforementioned Boro Nico Smyra; http://www.dankotree.org/dhcomplete/index-d21-perov.php

Another link; http://home.iprimus.com.au/zzrperov/page1.html

[Duke]

Ne slušam domaće baš ali mi nije ta loša. Jebote, vi Dalmatinci sve neke tužne pjevače imate, gdje su nestali veselje, more, riba, gradele, barka, žene? :D Sve je to Toma Bebić kriv! :D

to ti je radi toga da nan se uklopi sa fjakon :D

[Heretik]

They do descend from Albanian immigrants. Arbanasi is what Slavs called Albanians.

Source (http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1000.html)

One Arbanasi certainly thinks he does, and he has genealogic proof of that, ironically a descendant of the aforementioned Boro Nico Smyra; http://www.dankotree.org/dhcomplete/index-d21-perov.php

Another link; http://home.iprimus.com.au/zzrperov/page1.html

So, if I write my family descends from alien invaders from Mars it is still the absolute truth? :wink

[Heretik]

to ti je radi toga da nan se uklopi sa fjakon :D

Nego, jeste se iskopali iz snijega?

[Duke]

They do descend from Albanian immigrants. Arbanasi is what Slavs called Albanians.

Source (http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1000.html)

One Arbanasi certainly thinks he does, and he has genealogic proof of that, ironically a descendant of the aforementioned Boro Nico Smyra; http://www.dankotree.org/dhcomplete/index-d21-perov.php

Another link; http://home.iprimus.com.au/zzrperov/page1.html

But not Šiptars, you think Šiptars lived there?

His ancestor name was Božo, thats Croatian name

[Panopticon]

So, if I write my family descends from alien invaders from Mars it is still the absolute truth? :wink

That is simply just a straw-man, Mars and Albania are quite different matters, you know. But if you can prove it - yes.

More;


History of the Arbanasi in Croatia

Foreword

The following page was made possible due to the generosity and kindness of Domagoj Buljat. His help in my quest to learn more about my ancestors is greatly appreciated even though later findings would show that my ancestors are not from the Zadar area home. Regardless of this fact, his help and unselfish kindness has inspired me to push harder to unravel some of the mysteries behind my family's past. For this, I am greatly indebted to him.

Due to the lack of primary resources in my local area, the following text I received from Domagoj Buljat has been gathered mainly from a book entitled Povijest Arbanasa kod Zadra (The History of Albanians Near Zadar). This book was written in an older Croatian text and therefore, forced me to translate and paraphrase a few sections that I felt were important. I have taken it upon myself to minimize any errors. However, mistakes still occur and I apologize if any are found on this page.

I hope the information presented on this page will be as interesting to you as it was for me. Although personally none of my ancestors are from the Zadar area, many present day Croatian (and even some Italian) families will be shocked to learn about their Albanian roots.

Please note that I have chosen to leave Čurković as was found in the book even though the majority of people today write it as Ćurković.

I dedicate this page to the rest of the Ćurković families in the world who are curious about learning more about their ancestry. The following is fairly interesting but in my case, it still leaves a lot of questions that need to be answered. In the meantime, enjoy the read.

Introduction

Very few people in the world know that a small Albanian settlement was established, close to three centuries ago, south of Zadar in Dalmatia. This settlement was known as Borgo Erizzo at first, and then later as Arbanasi. Today, the settlement has been incorporated into the city of Zadar, Croatia.

The inhabitants of this one time village were known as the Arbanasi (or simply, the "Albanians" in Croatian). The Arbanasi are known to have settled the area during two different periods of migration; the first in 1726 and the second in 1733. These settlers were said to be part of the Kastrati clan, one of the numerous Northern Albanian clans known to have existed. How and why an Albanian settlement originated where it is today can be explained by many old legends and historical documents.

Many of today's inhabitants around Zadar, without a doubt, overwhelmingly originate from the first and second Arbanasi migrations. Historical records prove that their ancestors used to belong to the Archdiocese of Bari (Bari, or Bar as it is known today, is located in present-day Montenegro along the Adriatic coast near the border with Albania). However, in which villages they lived in, the records do not mention. Local legend says that they came from two different villages. The first one is Briska and the other from Šesta.

Father Šime Stipčević, a priest from nearby Zadar, once swore that he has seen the two villages mentioned above around the area of Bari (also known as Antivari). Moreover, some citizens from town spoke that they were actually in these villages, which the legend mentions, when they were assigned in Albania as soldiers during the first World War (1914-18).

However, using the most accurate geographical map of Albania at that time, an Italian professor by the name of Tullio Erber, stated that he could not find the names of Briska and Šesta but instead, found Prešja and Šjak, which may very well have been the same villages mentioned in the legend. It may very well have been that the people who at one time lived in these villages may be in fact, the ancestors of today's Arbanasi. It may also help to explain the two different periods of migration as a few linguistic differences have been noted between the people from the first and second migrations.

On the other hand, Sami Flamuri, author of such books as E Perjetshme eshte Shqiperia and Zauvjek Albanija, has confirmed that the Arbanasi did in fact leave the villages of Brisk (Briska) and Shestan (Šesta). He also states that some of those that fled this area were also from the village of Arbnesh. All these Albanian villages still exist and can be found in the outlying areas of Bar and Ulcinj. It is also remarkable to note that today's settlers still remain Catholic to this very day.

Another source confirms Flamuri's comments stating that up to 250 different families migrated from this region mainly from the villages of Shestan, Brisk, Liare, and Arbnesh.

Even though the towns of Bar and Ulcinj are situated by the Adriatic Sea, it is not known for sure whether the Arbanasi were mountain dwellers or inhabitants of the coast. However, some evidence points to the fact that the Arbanasi did not live along the Adriatic Sea coast, as they do today. One clue points to the fact that the Arbanasi of Zadar had no words in their Albanian vocabulary for the various kinds of fish found in the Adriatic. All the words they had for various names of fish were Croatian in origin i.e. manula (burbot), špar (annular gilthead), glavoč (goby), tunjevina (tuna), etc.

Reasons for migration

Since the first Ottoman empire conquest over the Albanian people, there have been many instances whereby the Albanians rose up in rebellion against their Turkish occupiers. In order to pacify the Albanians (who were partly motivated by defence of the Christian faith) as well as to bring Albanians spiritually closer to Turkey, the Ottomans initiated a systematic drive toward the end of the 16th century to Islamize the population.

In the 16th century almost all Albanians were Christian, with the Roman Catholic Church being dominant in the north, and the Orthodox Church in the south. At first, only a small number of town clans became converted to Islam, in order to maintain their economic position and privileges. Within the next hundred years, however, coercion and economic pressures would change the religious makeup of the Albanian people.

In the 17th century the Turks began a policy of Islamization of the population at large to ensure peace in the Albanian lands, and to win the allegiance of this nation of warriors to the Ottoman empire: the propagation of Islam was the best means of pacifying the Albanians. They also used economic incentives to convert the people. Those who adopted Islam received land, and had their taxes lowered, whereas the raya (inhabitants) in subjugated Balkan countries worked the land without the right of ownership. The Albanian raya at first put up rather strong resistance to Islamization, as can be inferred from the length of time needed to convert most of the population. However, in the 18th and 19th centuries Islam became predominant, and its adherents far outnumbered the Christian population of Roman Catholics and Orthodox by a ratio of two-to-one. Those that remained Catholic (in the north) or Orthodox (in the south) experienced many hardships which in turn forced many of them to flee elsewhere. During these times, it is believed that up to one quarter of the Albanian population fled abroad to southern Italy, Sicily, and the Dalmatian coast.

The Arbanasi that settled around Zadar were of the Roman Catholic faith and whatever reason caused them to be placed under the protection of the Venetian Republic of Dalmatia is explained in the records. For the first migration it states that "because of the religious persecution and violence from the Turkish side, it is written that the Albanian families agreed to break free from Turkish barbarism, leaving in their homeland everything and everyone, taking refuge under the protection of the republic" (document from August 15, 1726).

For the second migration it tells "that those families were forced to flee from their homeland because of the persecution due to two Ottoman empire pashas from Bari" (document from October 27, 1733). The Turks recognized that the persecution by Pasha Akmet was wrong and it would inevitably cost him as he would be ousted for forcing the Arbanasi to move out of their homeland (document from December 30, 1733).

According to legend, one of the many ways the Turks persecuted the Albanians was by taking part in the rapes of young Christian women. The Albanians, in turn, took revenge on this act of dishonour by slaughtering the Turks by night, burning down their villages, and fleeing their homeland before encountering any new terrors or worst evils. It is not hard to believe that the first runaways left their homeland for the reasons the legend has given, for in the records it does not mention how they came, but rather that they left "everything and everyone to take refuge under the rule of the republic". However, for the second migration, legend conflicts with historical records with respect to the mention of the exact persecution faced at the hands of the Turkish pasha; and is therefore something that should be discarded.

The first migration

In 1726, 21 Albanian families left their homeland and settled a kilometre south of Zadar. The Republic of Venice, which during that time governed Dalmatia, took in the immigrants under its protection; building them houses for homes and stables for livestock, giving them the deeds to the land and, in the case of Zemunik, ploughing and nourishing the pasture land for them as well as clearing it of any trees.

A register of records from August 15, 1726 carries the names of 21 families with the following names:

Luca d'Andrea Gezghenovich
Nicolo di Luca Marghicevich
Nicolo d'Andrea Gasparovich
Giovanni d'Andrea Gezghenovich
Pere di Marco
Prem Vuca Marghicevich
Paolo Giech Marghicevich
Giech Prend Marghicevich
Giech Pepa Marghicevich
Marco Discialo Marghicevich
Prenz Prema Marghicevich
Petar Vuca Gianova
Nico Matessich
Luca Prend
Boso Nico Smira
Stanica Gielencovich
Visco Gielencovich
Lech Pero Marghicevich
Luca Lucich

In his Zara cristiana, Zadar's Monsignor Bianchi mentions the arrival of the Arbanasi near Zadar. He writes that in 1726, led by the two Petani brothers, 24 families from Turkish Albania came. He furthermore writes that they came from two directions with 12 Arbanasi families from each direction. However, in a different book, it is recorded that 16 families established an Albanian settlement. One particular peculiarity though is that there is no mention of the Petani family in the registry.

Distinguished professor, Vjekoslav Klaić, writes about the Arbanasi in his book Opis zemalja u kojim stanuju Hrvati (Report On The Lands Habitated By The Croats), published in 1881. Here he mentions that even the Archbishop of Zadar settled the area around the year 1720 and that there were 1354 Arbanasi residents from Scutari (in present-day Albania). However, there is no mention of a second settlement. The year of the recorded arrival is also wrong, as it may have come from an incorrect source or may have even been a publishing error. In his book Albanija i Makedonija (Albania and Macedonia), printed in 1904, Jakov Slišković looks back on the Albanian migration and writes that this Albanian migration can be called a settlement for those 27 families which took refuge from the persecution of Mahmut Begović, first in Perast and then to the outskirts of Zadar, thanks to the mediation by Bishop Zmajević in 1726. The bishop is credited with saving approximately 800 people. The findings by this professor are a bit skewed and at the time were in the process of being corrected.

The second migration

In 1733, seven years after the first migrations, the second group of Arbanasi left their birthplaces and crossed the Bay of Kotor, some alongside and others by sea, to arrive in Hercegovina, where they temporarily settled until they were shipped to Zadar and settled upon the land known as Zemunik, which was donated by the Venetian government. Records from March 11, 1735 reveal that there were about 28 families, and 199 people in total. The names are listed below:

Nicolo Andre
Crasto Covac
Marco Giocca
Giocca Gionon
Giocca Giuchin
Stjepo Gjuri
Stiepo Luco
Prento Kneunichi
Lecca Marco
Prento Marcov
Paolo Marussich
Mar Mazia
Marco Nicadobrez
Pema Nichin
Nicolo Pantov
Marco Pertu
Frane Popovich
Paolo Prendi
Nicola Rose
Rado Ruco
Gen Sperc
Prento Stani
Vuco Tamartinovich
Vuksa Tancovich
Pietro Tioba
Andrea Toma
Capitano Nicolo Vlagdan
Jovan Vucin

Did all these families come in one trip? Don Mijo Čurković states the answer as being no because there are many other documents listed between 1733-34 that only speaks of about 150 Arbanasi immigrants. Those 49 extra people listed in the records from March 11, 1735 are thought to have come a bit later. Even documents from 1733 seem to show that 150 people arrived to Kotor and Kaštel Novi in 1733 (although other documents state that this was in 1734). The records from March 11, 1735 also make it very well known that the government credits Archbishop Zmajević for intervening and allowing the Arbanasi to emigrate to Dalmatia. Because of Archbishop Zmajević's influence, the immigrants were also given land in Zemunik and the use of farming equipment for their pastures and the chopping down of trees.

Arbanasi land registry

In 1756, the Venetian government was able to conduct a land registry for the Arbanasi. The register was able to count the number of households in the settlement and the number of people in the each family. The following is a summary of the number of households as found in Erber's book:

14 Čurković 1 Bargela
7 Duka 1 Brothers Jure and Stiepo
6 Petani 1 Gjoka
6 Vladović 1 Jokić
4 Maršan 1 Kalmeta
3 Jelenković 1 Kotlur
3 Jović 1 Markuz
3 Smir 1 Marušić
2 Bitri 1 Nikagi
2 Kovacević 1 Radojcević
2 Marsig-Zotić 1 Škopelja
2 Marsiga 1 Vuk
2 Šestan 1 Zanković

Are the names of those from those from the first and second migrations been passed down to those found in this register or are they new last names? This is not easy to explain but Don Mijo Čurković gives two theories.

The first theory he states is that the names of the first families were replaced by the names of new Arbanasi families that came a short time later (for which there seem to be no records for them). He also points out that the first families may have moved away.

The second theory is a bit more complex and basically states that the last names may have been changed on the basis of the following: nicknames, the name under which a person was christened, and even their father's or grandfather's name. For example, in a document dating back to August 1726, it is seen that the head of the Arbanasi settlement was Luki Andrić. In the first registry we notice the name of Luca d'Andrea Ghesghenovich which has to be the same as Luki Andric. He simply lost his surname and took on another using his father's christened name. Using this approach, it makes it possible to accept this theory that the family names from the first and later registries really are not different families, but in reality are the names of Albanian families that modified their names under their own or even their father's and grandfather's christened names. At the same time, some families let go of their christened last names and went back to their old family name.

The Arbanasi in every day life

In 1729, the Arbanasi asked the authorities for permission, on their own expense, to erect a dam, stretched on a present-day small bay, for the good of their settlement to protect them from flooding strong southerly winds, which would often do damage to their local workshops. At the same time, they also asked that the authorities concede the claim to the embanked piece of land until a time came when this land would be arable. Moreover, the Arbanasi had hoped to obtain permission from the government in order to create a harbour that would divert surplus water from the bay so that they could catch fish. The authorities consented to their request, and on that very same day made their claim legal (document from April 10, 1729). Forty years later, Dominik Condulmer, the provveditore (governor/military commander) of Zadar, as well as reaffirming their old claim to the bay and harbour, passed a law that would penalize trespassers 100 ducats if they were caught on this property.

In 1735, due to the deaths of some landlords and the movement of people to different parts of Dalmatia, much arable land soon became available. The same thing occurred in 1739. A few of the Arbanasi submitted a request to the authorities that the free arable land be divided among them. The provveditore came to a fair decision that legally entitled the oldest land owners to a tenth of the land. Some of the Arbanasi were annoyed by this decision and moved further away to Zemunik. On the other hand, Arbanasi living in Zemunik since 1727 had also moved closer to town. The decision to change homes cost the Arbanasi their property but by the end of 1739 they were firmly in their new surroundings. No matter how inconvenient it was for them at first, the move would later prove to a blessing for their entire families.

In 1749, some of the Arbanasi were already employed in Zadar as masons. However by 1763, Zadar experienced a cholera outbreak and the Arbanasi, which had opened up many taverns in town by this time, took advantage of the situation by bribing the district authorities to buy food off them for later resale to the town inhabitants at a higher price.

However, Provveditore Micheli was not able to tolerate such lawlessness and betrayal. He severely ordered against any similar smuggling, bribing, and profiteering under the threat of fines, jail, and hard labour. As well, Micheli tried to alleviate town fears by reassuring people that there was food (meats, etc.) that was thoroughly smoked in Šamarak (now Preparandija). However, this decree would do little to stop the Arbanasi from maintaining this illegal trade.

In an effort to discontinue this defiant behaviour, Provveditore Frano Fallier gave an order to the knez (prince) of Zadar to report to him on which taverns and how many of them were actually needed in town for people visiting Samarak (Samarak was thought to be a large storehouse where the district authorities brought their products and where the town inhabitants came to buy them).

The Venetian government did not want to irritate these valuable and defiant citizens. A plan was in place to get the Arbanasi to work in a factory packaging tobacco, which in those times was planted and cultivated on land in Grbe near Nin, owned by the rich Venetian citizen Manfrina Jerka. There was much discontent among the Arbanasi, the working class, and the civil servants over this decision to halt their black market trade. Provveditore Andeo Memo, was forced to deal punishments with great severity to those that continued in this illegal trade by threatening fines, jail, and slavery on galleys to anyone who, under any excuse, corrupted workers or supervisors with any acts or words and purposely damaged any factory equipment (document from May 10, 1783). His firm and clear stance must have silenced the Arbanasi for it is not observed in any other documents of any other problems regarding them.

The Arbanasi faith

As mentioned earlier, the Arbanasi were of the Roman Catholic faith. When they first arrived, the churches of St. Donat (sv. Donat) in Zadar and that of St. John (sv. Ivan), near the marketplace, were given up to the Arbanasi for public worship. The Arbanasi did not have their own church. However, under the leadership and vision of Archbishop Zmajević, construction of a church for the Arbanasi would begin in 1734. It was to be named Our Lady of Loreta and would be completed three years later. This is evident by the death records which bear the names of those that passed away up to the year of 1737 in the churches of St. Donat and St. John. As well, the marriage records mentions all marriage engagements and the marriages which were performed at those churches up to January 1738. Of all the information available, it is possible to confirm the church was completely built and handed over for public worship in 1737.

Arbanasi in Zemunik

In Zemunik lies another Arbanasi settlement established by the Venetian republic in 1727. It is located 14 km east of Zadar.

A document from February 12, 1728 carries the names of these Arbanasi settlers:

Giovanni di Giovo
Gieci d'Andrea
Pietro di Marco
Giovanni di Vucchia
Giovanni di Nica
Giovanni Prenci
Nicolo Giovi

Today's generation in Zemunik does not regard themselves as being of Albanian descent even though names such as Paleka, Šestan, Pinčić, Prenđa, and Čurković strongly confirm their ancestry. It seems as if some of the Arbanasi closer to town assimilated relatively early. This is evident during the middle of the 19th century when it was found that none of the older men living in Arbanasi had any recollection that they were Albanian or even knew how to speak Albanian. This is thought to have occurred slowly, possibly due to quarrelling among the Arbanasi amongst themselves. Anger may have been caused due to mutually unjust land claims with respect to family graves, pasture land, and the cutting down of trees. This in turn, more than likely, may have contributed to the aversion of their native heritage.

For those Arbanasi that later settled in Zemunik, they still belonged to the Arbanasi church, for in the register of the Arbanasi church it reads many times, that so and so died in Zemunik, received confession and communion from Arbanasi priests, was buried at the church of Our Lady of Loreta, etc. In fact, the burial records extend all the way to the year 1812.

Arbanasi in Ploće

The village of Ploće lies 5 km east of Zadar. In Ploće there are two groups of houses. One set lies on the hills, four kilometres away on the left side of the main road. At the beginning of the street leading to the village of Dračevac (Malpaga), lies another group, 200 metres ahead on the slope of another hill. Here live the true Arbanasi inhabitants, which took up residence and slowly started to acquire land in the nearby vicinity. In the village, homes are named for the families living there. These included the Bulić, Čurković, Marnik, Perović, and Stipčević families.

In everyday life, this generation all spoke the Albanian language; and according to Don Mijo Čurković's book in 1922, "even to this day, the Čurković family speaks beautifully and correctly, the way it is spoken in Albania". This statement is probably an incorrect one as the Albanian language spoken in this region today is most likely unrecognizable to the average Albanian. If spoken today, the language is likely a dialect composed of a mixture of Albanian, Croatian, and Italian words.

Until the middle of the 19th century they all belonged to the Arbanasi church. However, after that they fell under the lead and guidance of the church in Dračevac. The inhabitants were said to have occupied themselves exclusively in agriculture and most have been described as being in good standing. They were known for having stern characters, but otherwise all were good people of noble heart. As well, everyone in the village is said to have treated each other like members of their own family.

A list of Arbanasi family names

Bulić, Ćućula, Čurković, Dadić, Dešpalj, Duka, Gjergja, Jelenković, Jović, Kalmeta, Karuc, Kotlar, Krstić, Maršan, Marušić, Matešić, Mazija, Morović, Musap, Mužanović, Nikpalj, Perović, Petani, Ratković, Relja-Vladović, Smolčić, Stipčević, Tomas, Vladović, Vukić

[Duke]

Nego, jeste se iskopali iz snijega?

A pomalo ide, biž bilo sve super u početku, as sad tramak.

Doduše neznan jesu li jos sva sela u zagori dostupna

[Heretik]

A pomalo ide, biž bilo sve super u početku, as sad tramak.

Doduše neznan jesu li jos sva sela u zagori dostupna

Ajde, samo da ne napada opet. Jebote, nespremni smo na snijeg kao da u najmanju ruku živimo u Africi. :rolleyes2:

[Duke]

That is simply just a straw-man, Mars and Albania are quite different matters, you know. But if you can prove it - yes.

More;

They were not Šiptars

[Adrian]

They were not Šiptars

You should start to accept the facts. Facts are stubborn, always.
Here is a source in your language and everything is clear, thay were albanians.

Some albanian words used by Arvanites in Croatia:

brushki (četka), buculaj (slatki kolač), but (bačva), butig (dućan), butir (maslac), carz (vunena suknja), cat (vrsta dinje), cerod (voštano platno), cimatorje (groblje), cakull (brbljanje, "ćakula"), damizhon (pletenka, "demižon"), denjat (udostojiti se), deshperat (očajavati), dizhgrocje (nesreća), dogan (carinarnica), dret (ravno), duzin (tuce, "duzina"), faculet (rubac), fang (mulj), fashat (poviti), forc (snaga), fortun (nevrijeme, "fortunal"), fregat (ribati), fumat (pušiti), fundac (talog kave), gabju (krletka), garbu (ugljen), gorn (oluk) itd.

Also, there is a write in your language about Arvanitas/Arbanas, in Wikipedia. I will quote only two sentences, and I will bring you the sources.


...sačuvan je autohtoni Arbanaski-Šestanski jezik (mješavina geg narječja, talijanskog i hrvatskog).

and...


Zadarski Arbanasi doselili su se iz svog zavičaja u okolici Skadarskog jezera u grad Zadar 1726. godine, kada je nastalo današnje naselje.

Sources:
Povijest Arbanasa u Hrvatskoj (en.)
Genealogija obitelji Perović (en.)
Povijest zadarskih Arbanasa (en.)
Foto album: Bernard Kotlar
Povijest Bara i Sestana
----
Oxford Dictionary of Family Names:Arbanas


Ethnic name for an Albanian. Some bearers are from the village of Arbanasi near Zadar in Dalmatia, inhabited by Catholic Albanians who arrived in the 18th century, fleeing from the Turks.

http://www.answers.com/topic/arbanas

----

Arbanasi keep relations with their Albanian brothers. Ministry of Culture of Albania support Association of Arbanas from Zara....says president of Association - Enio Grdović.

http://www.zadarskilist.hr/clanci/07082008/zadarski-arbanasi-najbolji-cuvari-svoje-kulture

---

Osvrnut ćemo se i na naselje Arbanasi, nekada samostalno selo, a danas dio Zadra, koje su u prvoj polovini 18. stoljeća osnovali Albanci, doseljeni iz kraja ispod Skadarskog jezera (tzv. turska Albanija). Kruno Krstić u Rječniku govora zadarskih Arbanasa (Zadar, 1987.) kaže da su se arbanaški doseljenici u Zemuniku i Pločama dosta naglo (pred više od jednog stoljeća) jezično posve pohrvatili, dok je matično naselje (Arbanasi) sve do danas sačuvalo albanski jezik - arbënisht. Taj arbanaški govor, koji pripada gegskom narječju, sačuvao je neke arhaične osobine (neke i svojstvene toskijskom narječju), ali je tijekom izoliranog opstanka doživio značajne promjene, što zbog vlastitih razvojnih tendencija (a i degenerativnih procesa), što zbog inojezičnih utjecaja: štokavski iz kotarske pozadine, čakavskih iz neposredne okoline i otoka, te romanskih, uglavnom mletačko-talijanskih iz Zadra.

English:

We look at Arbanasi village, formerly independent village, now part of Zadar, in the first half of the 18th century established the [B] Albanian [/ B], who arrived from below the end of the Skadar Lake (aka Turkey, Albania). Kruno Krstic Dictionary of speech Albanians Zadar (Zadar, 1987.) Says that the settlers in arbanaški Zemunik and Ploce quite rapidly (to more than a century) Croatised language entirely, while the parent complex (Arbanasi) survived until today [B] Albanian language - arbënisht [/ B]. This arbanaški speech, which belongs gegskom dialect, it has retained some archaic characteristics (and some inherent Tosk dialect), but the survival of isolated undergone significant change, due to their developmental tendencies (and the degenerative process), because of the impact inojezičnih: stokavian from county background, Čakavian from the immediate environment and the island, and Roman, Venetian-Italian mainly from Zadar.

SREĆKO LORGER

http://arhiv.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20041204/mozaik04.asp

I don't have time but, if you want, I will bring hundreds and thousands sources which proves that arbanasi were albanians.

1. We don't claim Croatian territories, we just want the truth o be said.
2. You (croatians) should learn from Italians. I didn't hear any Italian claiming that Arvanites are not Albanians..or something like that.

[Duke]

Those words we all use here, and are either of Slavic, Greek or Latin origin, just like Šiptar language is.

You still dont understand that Arbanas language is fully understandable to us, but it has more Greek influnce, but thats just like couple of words, and that mainly because they lived closer to Grece.

When you speak about Arbanas, its like you speak about Dalmatians, Istrians ...etc, not Šiptars

Ill give you example

brushki (četka), buculaj (slatki kolač), but (bačva), butig (dućan), butir (maslac), carz (vunena suknja), cat (vrsta dinje), cerod (voštano platno), cimatorje (groblje), cakull (brbljanje, "ćakula"), damizhon (pletenka, "demižon"), denjat (udostojiti se), deshperat (očajavati), dizhgrocje (nesreća), dogan (carinarnica), dret (ravno), duzin (tuce, "duzina"), faculet (rubac), fang (mulj), fashat (poviti), forc (snaga), fortun (nevrijeme, "fortunal"), fregat (ribati), fumat (pušiti), fundac (talog kave), gabju (krletka), garbu (ugljen), gorn (oluk) itd.

Bruškin, Bucolaj, pot, butiga, putar, cata, cerada, cimatorje, ćakule, damižana, dešperat, dizgracija, drito, dužina, faculet, forca, fortunal, fregat, fumat, fundač, keba/gajba, garbun, gurla...itd


These are just from my head, even tho they are not used that often, and these words are from Latin, and you can find equivalents in Italian, especially Venetian

Šiptars speak "Balkan Yiddish"

[Heretik]

brushki (četka), buculaj (slatki kolač), but (bačva), butig (dućan), butir (maslac), carz (vunena suknja), cat (vrsta dinje), cerod (voštano platno), cimatorje (groblje), cakull (brbljanje, "ćakula"), damizhon (pletenka, "demižon"), denjat (udostojiti se), deshperat (očajavati), dizhgrocje (nesreća), dogan (carinarnica), dret (ravno), duzin (tuce, "duzina"), faculet (rubac), fang (mulj), fashat (poviti), forc (snaga), fortun (nevrijeme, "fortunal"), fregat (ribati), fumat (pušiti), fundac (talog kave), gabju (krletka), garbu (ugljen), gorn (oluk) itd.

Oh my fucking god! More than half of those words are Italian, some derive from German and some from French. Do not sell your bullshit here, nobody's buying it.
Albanian myths are now closing to Serbian myths, way to go. :thumb001:

[Adrian]

Indo-european languages have a lot of similar words, but there are some pure albanian words that doesn't have any sense in other languages.
What does words: dret (drejt), fashat (fasha), faculet (faculete), denjat (ndjenjat), fumat (frymat/frumat), deshperat (deshperim) and many other words mean in croatian, greek, italia, french or german language?!


You still dont understand that Arbanas language is fully understandable to us, but it has more Greek influnce, but thats just like couple of words, and that mainly because they lived closer to Grece.

Arbanas is understable because of coexistence and because asimilation. Thay changed their language till now, taking many Croatian words...or whole language!

Who lived closer to Greeks?
Liqeni i Shkodres (lake skadar) is in border with Montenegro, on the opposite side of Albanian border with Greece.

I have bring here a lot of sources and I can bring more, but you are skipping them. On the other hand, you don't bring any source to show who they were.
Bring me your version/sources about them?!

p.s. I am trying to be polite with you and I expect the same from your side!!!

[Rron]

Oh my fucking god! More than half of those words are Italian, some derive from German and some from French. Do not sell your bullshit here, nobody's buying it.
Albanian myths are now closing to Serbian myths, way to go. :thumb001:
You try sell your bulshit here not us , you are that ones who are claiming about Arbanasit where even historians lingusts etc say that they are Albanians even word speaks itself Arban Arbën Arbër we used name Arbër in middle ages,my question is what is your aim po posting this crap.


Kuvendi i Arbërit i njohur edhe me emërtimet tjera si "Lidhja Shqiptare e Lezhës" ( League of Lezhë in english ) apo Besëlidhja e Lezhës etj. është një tubim i fisnikëve më të njohur shqiptarë të viteve 1444 të cilët rrezikoheshin apo dëshironin të shkëputen nga lidhja me perandorin osmane e cila krijohej me ndikimin ushtarak Osman.
http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidhja_e_Lezh%C3%ABs

Kuvendi i Arbëri u mbajt më 2 mars 1444 në Lezhë (Shqipëri). Si organizatrë të kuvendit merret i posakthyeri nga Stambolli, gjenerali (Skenderbeu) shqiptar në perandorin osmane Gjergj Kastrioti në bashkpunim me klerin katolik shqiptar.

[Duke]

Indo-european languages have a lot of similar words, but there are some pure albanian words that doesn't have any sense in other languages.
What does words: dret (drejt), fashat (fasha), faculet (faculete), denjat (ndjenjat), fumat (frymat/frumat), deshperat (deshperim) and many other words mean in croatian, greek, italia, french or german language?!




Are you thick or what, i already listed it

drito- striaght
infašat- to cover wound, but also infišati- to fall in love
Faculet- handkerchief
Fumat- to smoke
Dešperat- desperate
Denjat se – dignify; Ne denjati se - not even say hallo

these words are spoken all over Croatian coast because of Venetian influence.

There are also words like
Kužit
Depožit
Dišpet
Centurin
...
and million others

[Duke]

You try sell your bulshit here not us , you are that ones who are claiming about Arbanasit where even historians lingusts etc say that they are Albanians even word speaks itself Arban Arbën Arbër we used name Arbër in middle ages,my question is what is your aim po posting this crap.

Šiptars came to existence with coming of Turks and Albania becoming muslim, after Skanderbergs death those who where with him emigrated.

Albania was multiethnic since Roman times, Arbanasi are Croats( some are Vlach tho) who emigrated from Albania, and it was not inhabited by Šiptars, because in your language you dont even have marine terms of your own, which suggest your people didn't live near sea.

Your language is product of melting of surrounding languages(Greek and Slavic)+Latin and Turkish into one, just like Yiddish was made in Germany and Poland-Russia.

Yiddish is basically Slavic+German+Latin

Modern Albania was one of the first places to fall under Rome outside of Apennine peninsula
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Roman_Republic_Empire_map_fast.gif/300px-Roman_Republic_Empire_map_fast.gif
Which suggest tribes there were among first who became Latinized

[Rron]

Šiptars came to existence with coming of Turks
How we came in existence ?


and it was not inhabited by Šiptars,
Where we were in that time?

your people didn't live near sea.
Where we lived?

Your language is product of melting of surrounding languages(Greek and Slavic)+Latin and Turkish into one, just like Yiddish was made in Germany and Poland-Russia.
How we managed to create this language?


Ps: We are bringing you facts, only thing what you are doing is repeating same words all the time.

[Duke]

How we came in existence ?

In ottoman Empire, but as Šiptars, you are also very heterogeneous genetically, which means you were made from different people.
First mixing could of happen in Roman empire tho

http://britam.org/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg.png




Where we were in that time?

Where we lived?

How we managed to create this language?


Some of you were indigenous, some maybe came from other places under Ottoman Empire.

You created that language because you were multiethnic( this is more likely than just influence, because of your heterogeneous genetics) , its a combination of languages that is made into one language, Slavic, Greek, and Latin, with some words that are suspected Thracian, and some Turkish like the rest of Balkan.

[Drawing-slim]

Šiptars came to existence with coming of Turks and Albania becoming muslim, after Skanderbergs death those who where with him emigrated.

Albania was multiethnic since Roman times, Arbanasi are Croats who emigrated from Albania, and it was not inhabited by Šiptars, because in your language you dont even have marine terms of your own, which suggest you didn't live near sea.

Your language is product of melting of surrounding languages(Greek and Slavic)+Latin and Turkish into one, just like Yiddish was made in Germany and Poland-Russia

Yiddish is basically Slavic+German+LatinThis is to say at least creative bullshit. But bullshit nevertheless.

You can actually full serbs and some youtuber idiots into believing this, but no one else.

Most albanian places by the sea were actually shit holes places to live, where malaria was known to kill people i masses.
Also thats why albanians that lived by the sea, (and very small number historically) compare to those that lived up in mountains
differed so much in phisychal and skin tone looks or heathy wise generally.
Infact the city of vlora touristic beach town today was never populated by more then few hundred to a few thousand later people ontill enver hoxha cleaned the
area of sweet sitting waters that spread malaria all around where the city i situated today.
And this goes for the most parts of albanian coast line back in history..

[Rron]

In ottoman Empire, but as Šiptars
You didnt answer me so again how we came in existence?









Some of you were indigenous, some maybe came from other places under Ottoman Empire.
Which places ?


You created that language because you were multiethnic( this is more likely than just influence, because of your heterogeneous genetics) its a combination of languages that is made into one language, Slavic, Greek, and Latin, with some words that are suspected Thracian, and some Turkish like the rest of Balkan.
So our alphabet was not written yet and we managed to create a language which is unique brand of IE, how that ?

[Duke]

....

Lots of ranting that goes against facts, BTW, Croats are Catholic

[Duke]

You didnt answer me so again how we came in existence?


Which places ?



I answered you, you could come from any parts of OE, but from different sources, and not as single group.



So our alphabet was not written yet and we managed to create a language which is unique brand of IE, how that ?

It was easier because you didn't have alphabet or were literate, folk speech of different influences became language.
Language that is literate, and that there are books written in it, is harder to replace or modify, because it serves as reference, and provides linguists who take care of it.

[Drawing-slim]

Lots of ranting that goes against factsSays the guy that is most likely smoking some good weed and getting creative on bullshit:rolleyes:
Not a bad way to kill time i say:D

[Kanuni]

In ottoman Empire, but as Šiptars, you are also very heterogeneous genetically, which means you were made from different people.
First mixing could of happen in Roman empire tho

http://britam.org/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg.png


Except for those who live in isolated areas every nation is in fact genetically heterogenous.Anyway the mixing of major Albanian haplogroups happened in ancient times long time before Romans.While it is true Albanians from Albania are heterogenous in comparison with their Kosovar brothers again it doesn't mean anything.

[Duke]

Except for those who live in isolated areas every nation is in fact genetically heterogenous.Anyway the mixing of major Albanian haplogroups happened in ancient times long time before Romans.While it is true Albanians from Albania are heterogenous in comparison with their Kosovar brothers again it doesn't mean anything.

how can isolated people who lived on mountains be genetically heterogeneous?

Please explain.


Also what is your source that mixing was before Roman Empire, common sense suggests otherwise.

[Duke]

Says the guy that is most likely smoking some good weed and getting creative on bullshit:rolleyes:
Not a bad way to kill time i say:D

I agree :D

[Rron]

I answered you, you could come from any parts of OE, from a different sources
how is possible to survive of asimilation a small number of people which were ''brought'' here,?




It was easier because you didn't have alphabet or were literate, folk speech of different influences became language.
So just like that, we decided to not talk anymore in our language and started learning other languages,we learned germanic greek slavic etc etc even not being literate:rolleyes:

[Duke]

Aha really, then tell me how is possible to survive of asimilation a small number of people which were ''brought'' here, and after that even fighting against those which ''brought'' us here.
Scender beg wasnt šiptar

He was Arbanas like him, Škender Zdravko
http://www.vecernji.hr/slika-640x348/vijesti/zdravko-skender-ogorcen-sam-to-je-kao-da-mi-je-netko-ukrao-noge-slika-228993


Andrija Kačić Miočić
Razgovor ugodni naroda slovinskog (Pleasant Conversation of Slavic People, 1756), a history in verse, in which Kačić Miočić, influenced by the ideals of the Enlightenment, tried to spread literacy and modern ideas among common people. It was the most popular book in the Croatian-speaking lands for more than a century. It also played a key role in the victory of the Shtokavian dialect as the standard Croatian language. It contain poems about Skanderbeg which were basis for tragedy Skenderbeg


And many people under ottomans that were initially in service of them fought against them, it was same case in Roman Empire.

It seem that you list things which are common sense, and/or common knowledge as outrageous


So just like that, we decided to not talk anymore in our language and started learning other languages,we learned germanic greek slavic etc etc even not being literate:rolleyes:

Of course, isnt that what happen, I mean Šiptars were not literate, and your language is a mix?

[Rron]

Scender beg wasnt šiptar
Dude go for some mental check before its to late, you are claiming now Gjergj Kastrioti being croatian lol


And many people under ottomans that were initially in service of them fought against them, it was same case in Roman Empire.
This is not relevant with my question



Of course, isnt that what happen, I mean Šiptars were not literate, and your language is a mix?

You are failing to bring sources you are repeating same words always , answer me one more question how is possible that this language which was spoken in that time is in common today .


From Dulcina (Ulcinj) to Duratzo (Durrës) we travelled with a bad wind. This is a great city ruined by the Turks, and is now subject to the Venetians. This city lies in Albania where they also have their own language which cannot be written well, as they do not have an alphabet of their own in this country. I have noted down several words of this Albanian language, which are written below in our letters:
boicke- bread
vene- wine
oie- water
mische- meat
jat- cheese
foeije- eggs
oitter- vinegar
poylle- a chicken
pyske- fish
krup- salt
myr- good
kyckge- bad
megarune- to eat
pijne- to drink
tauerne- a tavern
geneyre- a man
growa- a woman
jae- no
criste- god
dreck- the devil
kijrij- a candle
kale- a horse
elbe- oats
fijet- to sleep
mirenestrasse- good morning
myreprama- good night
meretzewen- good day
do daple- I will buy it
laff ne kammijss- wash my shirt
ne kaffs- what is that called
nea- one
dua- two
trij- three
quater- four
pessa- five
jast- six
statte- seven
tette- eight
nante- nine
dieta- ten
nijtgint- hundred
nemijgo- thousand


''Extract from: E. von Groote (ed.): Die Pilgerfahrt des Ritters Arnold von Harff von Cöln durch Italien, Syrien, Aegypten, Arabien, Aethiopien, Nubien, Palästina, die Türkei, Frankreich und Spanien, wie er sie in den Jahren 1496 bis 1499 vollendet, beschrieben und durch Zeichnungen erläutert hat, Cologne 1860, p. 64 66.''
__________________

[Heretik]

You try sell your bulshit here not us , you are that ones who are claiming about Arbanasit where even historians lingusts etc say that they are Albanians even word speaks itself Arban Arbën Arbër we used name Arbër in middle ages,my question is what is your aim po posting this crap.

What in the hell are you talking about? More than half of the posted words have italian/german/french roots, not albanian. Claiming them albanian is ridiculous, but no point in arguing with you obviously.

[Rron]

What in the hell are you talking about? More than half of the posted words have italian/german/french roots, not albanian. Claiming them albanian is ridiculous, but no point in arguing with you obviously.
Its seems its opposite, arguing with you its madness ,which scholar describe Arbanasi like croats.
Seems that you are very paranoid because we are not claiming lands in Croatia , saying that Arbanasi are croats is ridiculous.

[Heretik]

I am talking about words and you are talking about something else. What is your problem really? Are you just trying to pick a fight and trolling like usual or is there something other in that mind of yours?

http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/421/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_270204.jpg

[Rron]

I am talking about words and you are talking about something else. What is your problem really? Are you just trying to pick a fight and trolling like usual or is there something other in that mind of yours?

http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/421/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_270204.jpg
Now dont play victim here because we are trying to be polite and this cant be said about you , you are saying crap things take a look at Duke's posts when he said that we were brought here by turks which is totaly bsh.
A of course we are trolling you are angels.:rolleyes:

[Guapo]

Thread closed

[Heretik]

Now dont play victim here because we are trying to be polite and this cant be said about you , you are saying crap things take a look at Duke's posts when he said that we were brought here by turks which is totaly bsh.
A of course we are trolling you are angels.:rolleyes:

Please read H, e, r, e, t, i, and k and then D, u, k, e. There is a subtle difference.

[Rron]

......

[Adrian]

Brother albanians, please don't post anything that is not related to the topic. This topic is about Arbneshët e Zarës and purpose of the Duke is to give this thread another direction!
Thanks :)

Q9FPBPchDKc

Video 1 – Arbneshet e Zares

1st part

In this part is described how did Albanians migrate from Brisk-Ljare village, in the direction of Zara (Croatia).

Zefi Gjekës, 81 years old albanian, describe how they still perform rituals on the top of the mountain, for blessing the migrants/brothers who went to Zara.
First Arbneshes were located in the municipality of Zemunik and there were engaged in agriculture and livestock as their ancestors did in their villages. They also built objects of cult and began a new life.

Stay tuned, more to come!

[Adrian]

YJIP6tojnVY

Video 1 – Arbneshet e Zares

2nd part

Zemunik

The first interviewee -
Bernard Paleka - Sport reporter.

He speak about first settlements before 280 years ago etc...
There is no need to translate it because he speak in Croatian and Duke can understand him ; ).
What he says are written in the first posts of this thread.

The second interviewee -
Academic- Aleksander Stipcevic, Arbnesh, speak in albanian language.
"We all know where are we from an who we are. When we meet each ther in Zara or somewhere else, we always say that we are Arbëresh and nothing else. As for ethnicity, I have to say that for politics reasons we are with Croats.
We cannot forget from where we came here, says he. We came from Albania. Before 2 or 3 months, 40 Arberesh have been for the first time Albania to visit places from where we come. Thay have visited villages Livadhi, Brisku etc.. located near lake of Skadar (liqeni i Shkodres).


The video continues with Choir of Arbneshes from Zara
Song is dedicated to their ancestors and history...and is sing in Albanian language. Refrain of the song is “...because we are arberesh”.

Stay tuned, more to come!

[Duke]

The second interviewee -
Academic- Aleksander Stipcevic, Arbnesh, speak in albanian language.
"We all know where are we from an who we are. When we meet each ther in Zara or somewhere else, we always say that we are Arbëresh and nothing else. As for ethnicity, I have to say that for politics reasons we are with Croats.
We cannot forget from where we came here, says he. We came from Albania. Before 2 or 3 months, 40 Arberesh have been for the first time Albania to visit places from where we come. Thay have visited villages Livadhi, Brisku etc.. located near lake of Skadar (liqeni i Shkodres).


The video continues with Choir of Arbneshes from Zara
Song is dedicated to their ancestors and history...and is sing in Albanian language. Refrain of the song is “...because we are arberesh”.

Stay tuned, more to come!

He speaks Albanian, not arbanas language, and second, it is not a choir but Klapa, traditional Croatian singing style.

I never denied they were Arbanas, actually i pronounced it, they are Arbanas, but not Šiptars, big difference.

When they came here they know Croatian, and Albanian, and their language is a mix, probably because they live there near Šiptars for a long time


Arbanasi govore i hrvatski, piše don Mijo Ćurković(1852), »istom onom lakoćom kao i arbanaški

Arbanasi speak Croatian, "says Don Mijo Curkovic (1852)," with same ease as Arbanasi



Andrea Dandolo (1300–1354), the Venetian author of his Chronicle of Dalmatia, who writes of Croatian lands (Dalmatian Kingdom), reiterated the boundaries of Red Croatia:
In Latin:
" Svethopolis rex Dalmacie... in plano Dalme coronatus est et regnum suum Dalmacie in IIIIor partes divisit... A plano intaque Dalme usque Ystriam, Chroaciam Albam, vocavit, et a dicto plano usque Duracium, Chroaciam Rubeam, et versus montana, a flumine Drino usque Maceodoniam, Rasiam; et a dicto flumine citra Bosnam nominavit... Moderni autem maritimam totam vocant Dalmaciam, montana autem Chroatiam..."


Translation:
" Svatopluk, king of Dalmatia.... on Duvno field was crowned and his kingdom of Dalmatia is spread out into 4 regions: From the field called Duvno (Tomislavgrad), to Istra is called White Croatia... and from that field to Drac (Durrës in Albania) is called Red Croatia; and the mountainous side from the river Drina to Macedonia is called Rascia, and to that river to here is called Bosnia. The whole sea coast is called Dalmatia and its mountains are Croatia..."

[Heretik]

Ajde, pusti ih nek kenjaju... :D

[Rron]

Illyrian futja vëllai , nuk e shikon se koka i sherben vetem si mjet në funksionin e përmbushjes së nevojave instinktive të urisë dhe etjes.

[Heretik]

Asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf adfasfasf asdfasfasf asfasfasfasfsdf asfasfsafafafa asdfasdfasdf.

[Adrian]

He speaks Albanian, not arbanas language, and second, it is not a choir but Klapa, traditional Croatian singing style.

First, he speaks the language of his ancestors. The language of his ancestors was albanian and I will bring a lot of arguments to prove it.

Klapa is a kind of choir. A group of people who sing together is called choir, and then is divided in the manner of singing or the name of the Choir.
It refers to "a group of people" and the singing style traces its roots to liturgical church singing.
But, this is not important. Important is the language, text and meaning of the song that I have brought here.
I have another video and I will post it soon. 2nd video is more interesting because the Arbnesh audience sings together with them in Albanian.


I never denied they were Arbanas, actually i pronounced it, they are Arbanas, but not Šiptars, big difference.

Arbanas/Arberesh/Arbnesh/Arber/Arvanitas/Arnaut are Albanians/Shqiptarë.
It is as if I say you are Croat but you are not Hrvat or if I say difference between Hrvats and Croatians is huge! lol

1.
Arbanas Name Meaning:
Croatian and Serbian: ethnic name for an Albanian. Some bearers are from the village of Arbanasi near Zadar in Dalmatia, inhabited by Catholic Albanians who arrived in the 18th century, fleeing from the Turks.

http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=arbanas

2. (croatian source)
ZADAR
VENETIAN REPUBLIC (1409-1797)
The Adriatic in 1560, with Dalmatia and ZadarIn the early 16th century the Ottoman Turks conquered Dalmatia's hinterland, and the city became, in essence, a military stronghold protecting Venetian trade in the Adriatic, as well as the administrative centre for the Venetian conquests in Dalmatia. From 1726-1733 a part of its territory was settled by Catholic Albanian refugees. That Albanian settlement is called "Arbanasi".

http://croatia.luksoft.cz/zadar.html

3. (croatian source)
During the continuous Ottoman danger the population stagnated by a significant degree along with the economy. During the 16th and 17th century several large-scale epidemics of bubonic plague erupted in the city. After more than 150 years of Turkish threat Zadar was not only scarce in population, but also in material wealth. Venice sent new colonists and, under the firm hand of archbishop Vicko Zmajević, the Arbanasi (Catholic Albanian refugees) settled in the city, forming a new suburb. Despite the shortage of money, the Teatro Nobile (Theater for Nobility) was built in 1783. It functioned for over 100 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadar


When they came here they know Croatian, and Albanian, and their language is a mix, probably because they live there near Šiptars for a long time

No, you do not have any proof that they were croatians, in other hand I can prove their albanian ethnicity. Evidences are of your historians and of Arbneshi people. Be patient, we are not in hurry.


Arbanasi speak Croatian, "says Don Mijo Curkovic (1852)," with same ease as Arbanasi

This sentence is not well formulated...and bring me the source, please.


Andrea Dandolo (1300–1354), the Venetian author of his Chronicle of Dalmatia, who writes of Croatian lands (Dalmatian Kingdom), reiterated the boundaries of Red Croatia:
In Latin:
" Svethopolis rex Dalmacie... in plano Dalme coronatus est et regnum suum Dalmacie in IIIIor partes divisit... A plano intaque Dalme usque Ystriam, Chroaciam Albam, vocavit, et a dicto plano usque Duracium, Chroaciam Rubeam, et versus montana, a flumine Drino usque Maceodoniam, Rasiam; et a dicto flumine citra Bosnam nominavit... Moderni autem maritimam totam vocant Dalmaciam, montana autem Chroatiam..."


Translation:
" Svatopluk, king of Dalmatia.... on Duvno field was crowned and his kingdom of Dalmatia is spread out into 4 regions: From the field called Duvno (Tomislavgrad), to Istra is called White Croatia... and from that field to Drac (Durrës in Albania) is called Red Croatia; and the mountainous side from the river Drina to Macedonia is called Rascia, and to that river to here is called Bosnia. The whole sea coast is called Dalmatia and its mountains are Croatia..."

Bring me any source to prove that Croatians have lived in Brisk-Ljare, Shestan or Livadhi village. This is interesting for this thread, not Red, Blue or Black Croatian borders.

[Adrian]

This is an Original Research Paper with the number of registration: UDK 929:314.7:262.14 M. Delvesi

It is in Croatian language and consists of 8 pages. I will post it in both languages, Croatian and English. Because of time I will translate it with google translation.

Page 1
Croatian:

UDK 929:314.7:262.14 M. Delvesi
Izvorni znanstveni rad

ALBANSKI PROGNANIK, ZMAJEVIĆEV POUZDANIK –
ZADARSKI SVEĆENIK MARKO DELVESI (XVIII. st.)
Lovorka ČORALIĆ, Zagreb

Važnu sastavnicu društvenog života i svakodnevlja dalmatinskih gradova u vrijeme mletačke
uprave nad istočnojadranskom obalom činile su useljeničke skupine raznorodnog nacionalnog
i vjerskog podrijetla. Grad Zadar – vodeće upravno, političko, gospodarsko i kulturno središte
mletačke pokrajine Dalmacije upravo je primjer, vrelima dobro potvrđen, grada poznatog po
šarolikosti svojega ranonovovjekovnog stanovništva i opstojanja useljeničkih skupina s mletačkog
teritorija od Furlanije do Krete. Tema rada zadarski je svećenik Marko Delvesi, rodom
iz biskupije Sappa u Albaniji, doseljen u Zadar vjerojatno tridesetih godina XVIII. stoljeća, odnosno
u doba planskih useljavanja albanskih stanovnika u neposrednu okolicu Zadra. U radu
se raščlanjuju Delvesijeve veze sa zadarskim nadbiskupom Vickom Zmajevićem i kanonikom
Ivanom Campsijem (po rođenju Skadraninom), kao i Delvesijeva oporuka napisana u Zadru
1775. godine. Prijepis Delvesijeve oporuke, pohranjene u bilježničkim spisima zadarskoga
Državnog arhiva, objavljuje se na kraju rada.
KLJUČNE RIJEČI: Zadar, Dalmacija, Albanija, Albanci, Sappa, crkvena povijest, rani novi
vijek.
Tijekom prošlosti važnu su sastavnicu demografske povijesti, društvenog života i svakodnevlja
dalmatinskih gradova činile su useljeničke skupine raznorodnoga nacionalnog i
vjerskog podrijetla. Grad Zadar – upravno, političko, gospodarsko i kulturno središte mletačke
pokrajine Dalmacije upravo je primjer – vrelima dobro potvrđen – grada poznatog
po šarolikosti svojega ranonovovjekovnog stanovništva i postojanja useljeničkih skupina
s mletačkog teritorija od Furlanije do Krete.
U XVIII. stoljeću, na inicijativu zadarskoga nadbiskupa Vicka Zmajevića (1713.–1745.),
tada zasigurno vodećega crkvenog dostojanstvenika u Dalmaciji, u Zadar u više seoba
(od 1726. do 1733. godine) pristižu useljenici s područja Krajine (između Skadarskog
jezera i barskog priobalja), tada u sastavu osmanlijskih stečevina. Novi će useljenici,
katoličke vjeroispovijesti i poglavito albanske etničke pripadnosti, naseliti zadarsko...

Page 1
English:

UDC 929:314.7:262.14 M. Delves
Original research paper

ALBANIAN REFUGEES, ZMAJEVIĆEV confidante -
ARSENAL Priest Mark Delves (XVIII Century)
Lovorka ČORALIĆ, Zagreb


An important component of social life and everyday life in the Dalmatian city during the Venetian
Administration of the eastern coastline made ​​up of heterogeneous national immigrant groups
and religious backgrounds. The city of Zadar - the leading administrative, political, economic and cultural center
Venetian province of Dalmatia is an example, good sources confirmed, a city known for its
Early Modern diversity of its population and the existence of immigrant groups with the Venetian
territory of Friuli to Crete. Topics of Zadar priest Mark Delves, a native
Diocese of Sappa in Albania, immigrated to Zadar probably the thirties of the eighteenth. century, ie
during the planning of immigration of Albanian population in the immediate surroundings of Zadar.
The authors analyze Delvesijeve connection with Zadar Archbishop Vicka Zmajević and canon
John Campsijem (Skadraninom at birth), and Delvesijeva wills written in Zadar
1775th year. Transcript Delvesijeve wills, notary documents stored in Zadar
National Archives, published at the end of work.

KEY WORDS: Zadar, Dalmatia, Albania, Albanian, Sapp, church history, early modern Ages.

Over the past were an important component of demographic history, social life and everyday
Dalmatian cities accounted for immigrant groups are diverse in national and
religious backgrounds. The city of Zadar - administrative, political, economic and cultural center of Venice
province of Dalmatia is an example - good sources confirmed - the city's famous
the diversity of its population and the existence of Early Modern immigrant groups
the Venetian territory of Friuli to Crete.
In the eighteenth. century, at the initiative of the Zadar archbishop Vicka Zmajević (1713th to 1745th)
then surely the leading dignitaries of the church in Dalmatia, Zadar in more migration
(from the 1726th to 1733rd year) arriving immigrants from the Krajina region (between Skadar
Coastal lakes and Bar), then part of the Ottoman legacy. The new immigrants,
Catholic religion, and especially the Albanian ethnic origin, populate Zadar...

[Adrian]

Page 2

Croatian:

...kopneno okružje (Murvica, Ploče, Zemunik, Raštević i dr.), a žarišno mjesto njihova
naseljavanja – Arbanasi – svoja će prepoznatljiva obilježja zadržati do najnovijeg vremena.
Zmajevićevo naseljavanje Arbanasa zasigurno je planski najopsežnije doseljavanje na zadarsko
područje. No i u prethodnim stoljećima, još od srednjega vijeka, a posebice od
XVI. stoljeća i pojačavanja vojnih djelovanja na zadarskoj i dalmatinskoj protuturskoj
bojišnici, u Zadru se spominje niz osoba podrijetlom s mletačkih prekojadranskih posjeda
na južnome dijelu istočnoga Jadrana. Riječ je o teritoriju koji se nazivao Mletačkom
Albanijom (Albania Veneta, sjedište u Kotoru), u sastav kojega su ulazili – uz Boku kotorsku
i budvansko-barsko-ulcinjsko priobalje – i brojni gradovi na tlu današnje Albanije
(Skadar, Lješ, Drač i drugi). Brojni useljenici, pristigli u metropolu Dalmacije ponajprije
radi vojne službe pod stijegom svetoga Marka (oltramarini, soldati Albanesi), potjecali su
upravo sa šireg područja onodobne Barske nadbiskupije i Skadarske biskupije. Vjersku i
etničku pripadnost svakog pojedinca nerijetko je, radi oskudnosti vrela, teško i nezahvalno
utvrđivati. Ipak, tragom izvora (bilježničkih spisa), u XVI. i XVII. stoljeću bilježimo u
Zadru niz vojnika (rjeđe i civila), za koje nesumnjivo možemo kazati da su bili albanske
etničke pripadnosti. Poneki od njih ostajali su u Zadru i na dalmatinskom području
najveći dio svoje vojničke službe, zasnivali obitelj, stjecali nekretnine i u cijelosti se integrirali
u svakodnevlje svoje nove domovine. Imena odvjetaka nekih od tih useljeničkih
obitelji (npr. Kruta, Ginni, Scura, Progina i dr.) zapažena su u onodobnoj zadarskoj vojnoj
(ali i u crkvenoj) povijesti, ali su – na žalost – još uvijek nedovoljno poznata i obrađena u
historiografskim radovima...

English:

...terrestrial environment (Murvica, plates, Zemunik, Raštević etc.), and the focal point of their settlement - Arbanasi - its distinctive features will keep up to lately.
Zmajevićevo Albanians settling definitely the most comprehensive immigration plan in Zadar the area. But in previous centuries, since the Middle Ages, especially from XVI century and reinforcement of military action in Zadar and Dalmatia protuturskoj battlefield, in Zadar is mentioned a number of persons originating from the Venetian possessions prekojadranskih the southern part of the eastern Adriatic. It is a territory that was called the Venetian Albania (Albania Veneta, based in Kotor), the band he entered - the Bay of Kotor
of Bar, Budva, Ulcinj-coast - and many cities in the territory of modern Albania (Shkodra, Stiff, Durres and others).
Many immigrants arrived in the metropolis of Dalmatia primarily
for military service under the banner of St. Mark (oltramarini, Soldati Albanese), originated just most renowned names in the wider area archdiocese and diocese Skadarska. religious and ethnicity of each individual is often, for scarcity of hot, hard and thankless determine. However, trace sources (notary records), in the XVI and XVII. century saw the Zadar number of soldiers (and civilians rarely), for which we can certainly say that they were Albanian ethnicity. Some of them stayed in Zadar on the Dalmatian Most of his military service, own families, acquired the property and fully integrate everyday life in their new homeland. The names of some of those scion of immigrant families (eg solid, Ginni, SCURO, Progina etc.) were observed in the then military Zadar (but in the church) history, but - unfortunately - still insufficiently known and addressed in historiographic works....

[dralos]

illyrian i myte krejt,bravo

[Duke]

its like going into circle with you guys, they were Albanians because they came from Albania, and even those who came in 18-19 century they were still were not Šiptars, i.e they never called themselves as such.

They mostly come from coastal areas of Montenegro, and Albania, which wasn't overly populated with Šiptars.

When they came they spoke Croatian as easy as Albanian, they were bi-lingual, hard core Catholics,and their names and surnames were mostly Croatian, with some Italian ones(possibly Venetian).
Some of their names had Šiptar origin also.

Its like you dont understand that these areas were not ethnically homogeneous.

When you have surnames names like Lučić, Jelenković, Ivčić,...etc, and names like Visko, Božo,... etc, you canot claim them as Šiptar, because they were never Šiptars, nor they wont you to.

[Adrian]

its like going into circle with you guys, they were Albanians because they came from Albania, and even those who came in 18-19 century they were still were not Šiptars, i.e they never called themselves as such.

Are you claiming that Albanians and Shqiptaret are not the same people?
Albanian is an Exonym, Shqipetar is an Endonym. It is very simple!



They mostly come from coastal areas of Montenegro, and Albania, which wasn't overly populated with Šiptars.

Those areas were always populated by Albanians and still are. Take a look again at the 1st video that I have posted here, there is an 81 year old Albanian and he still live there with his family.
The names of Villages, of where Arbanos came in Zara, are in pure albanian language.

Brisk - Blade
Livadh - Meadow



When they came they spoke Croatian as easy as Albanian, they were bi-lingual, hard core Catholics,and their names and surnames were mostly Croatian, with some Italian ones(possibly Venetian).
Some of their names had Šiptar origin also.

Its like you dont understand that these areas were not ethnically homogeneous.

When you have surnames names like Lučić, Jelenković, Ivčić,...etc, and names like Visko, Božo,... etc, you canot claim them as Šiptar, because they were never Šiptars, nor they wont you to.

Some names were influenced by latin and slavic because of the coexistence in the vicinity of the Montenegrins, because of practice of religion (adaptation of religious names), because mixed marriages etc.
Yes, they were hard core chatolics just as are many other Albanians in northern Albania.

I want to add something. I never deny that in groups of albanian immigrants could be any slavic family. But those families could only be Montenegrin.

About surnames-
Surname Giocca maybe sounds Venetian to you but it is Gjoka in Albanian.
or
Marco - Marku
Gasich - Gashi
Belusich - Belushi
Jakovich - Jakova

etc...
Suffix vich does not deny affiliation of their old ethnicity.
Many albanian surnames have been slavicised during the assimilation.

[Guapo]

so Croats are also Shiftars :confused: :rotfl:

[Duke]

so Croats are also Shiftars :confused: :rotfl:

nope.

___________



Monument to Arbanas arrival, in Arbanasi-Zadar

http://www.photocroatia.com/eephoto/arbanasi/normal/B_KOTLAR_ARBANASI_58.jpg