J.R.R. Tolkien: South African or Englishman?

[Joe McCarthy]

From Wiki:


John Ronald Reuel Tolkien was born on 3 January 1892 in Bloemfontein in the Orange Free State (now Free State Province, part of South Africa) to Arthur Reuel Tolkien (1857–1896), an English bank manager, and his wife Mabel, née Suffield (1870–1904).

http://cslewisjrrtolkien.classicalautographs.com/jrrtolkien/JRRTolkien-Writing.jpg

[Padre Organtino]

For God's Sake - Englishman! He wrote himself that he did not have much memories of his childhood life there.

[Beorn]

Tolkien was an Englishman.

http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~elessar5/pafg01.htm

There was a wiki page detailing his ancestry, but I can't find it at this late hour.

[Joe McCarthy]

For God's Sake - Englishman! He wrote himself that he did not have much memories of his childhood life thee.

It's not quite that cut and dried. From the bio info at the Tolkien Society:

http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/biography.html


His memories of Africa were slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent

[Joe McCarthy]

Tolkien was an Englishman.

http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~elessar5/pafg01.htm

There was a wiki page detailing his ancestry, but I can't find it at this late hour.

Likely Anglicised Germans on his paternal side. Again from the Tolkien Society:


The name "Tolkien" (pron.: Tol-keen; equal stress on both syllables) is believed to be of German origin; Toll-kühn: foolishly brave, or stupidly clever - hence the pseudonym "Oxymore" which he occasionally used. His father's side of the family appears to have migrated from Saxony in the 18th century, but over the century and a half before his birth had become thoroughly Anglicised.

[Raikaswinþs]

25 July 1938
To Rutten & Loening Verlag
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter … I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware noone of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and remain yours faithfully

J.R.R. Tolkien





He left no space for doubt.

[Beorn]

Likely Anglicised Germans on his paternal side. Again from the Tolkien Society:

.... Yes, an Englishman. :)

Still can't find the site that went into detail, but this should do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_family

Fromthe names it looks like he was of English/Welsh and German descent...or, English. :thumb001:

[Joe McCarthy]

He left no space for doubt.

I don't see how that settles the matter at all.

[Osweo]

If an English couple has a kid abroad (especially in a part of the British Empire) and the kid comes back to grow up in England, the kid is English. :yawn:

[Joe McCarthy]

If an English couple has a kid abroad (especially in a part of the British Empire) and the kid comes back to grow up in England, the kid is English. :yawn:

Tolkien was not born in the British Empire.

[Loki]

A genetic Englishman who has been fortunate enough to grow up South Africa and acquire superior character insights and personality. :coffee:

[Beorn]

Tolkien was not born in the British Empire.

A British citizen born on Mars is a Martian.

Discuss.

[Loki]

A British citizen born on Mars is a Martian.

Discuss.

A British girl born in Essex does not know what the British Empire was or if Stonehenge is some kind of band.

[Beorn]

A British girl born in Essex does not know what the British Empire was or if Stonehenge is some kind of band.

An Essex girl thinks being on TOWIE isteh gwatezt fing eva!!! xoxoxoxox

A British girl born in Essex is most likely an English girl however close Essex is to Mars.

[Raskolnikov]

Joe has just been nominated for Troll of the Year by Martian Englishmen. Let's all take a moment to congratulate him and wish him well against his competitors.

[Joe McCarthy]

A genetic Englishman who has been fortunate enough to grow up South Africa and acquire superior character insights and personality. :coffee:

Tolkien was probably no more genetically English than I am. And unlike him, I have an English surname.

His German-English mix possibly gives him greater affinity to the average Boer than it does an Enghlishman, speaking strictly genetically.

[Loki]

A British girl born in Essex is most likely an English girl however close Essex is to Mars.

Yes I meant English of course. Essex is one of the most English places in England. But of course not all Essex people are this stupid, only this unfortunate friend of mine. :(

[Loki]

Tolkien was probably no more genetically English than I am. And unlike him, I have an English surname.

His German-English mix possibly gives him greater affinity to the average Boer than it does an Enghlishman, speaking strictly genetically.

It is a fact that Boers/Afrikaners and English-speaking South Africans overlap strongly genetically - something I was not aware of until recently. I have so many close English-speaking SA cousins in SA ... even though in my paternal ancestry line I can see almost no English.

[Beorn]

Tolkien was probably no more genetically English than I am.

Ancestral tree given. Provide yours.


And unlike him, I have an English surname.

Provide your surname and ancestry.


His German-English mix possibly gives him greater affinity to the average Boer than it does an Enghlishman, speaking strictly genetically.

Can't see how an English, Welsh and German ancestry = Boer, but if you can prove this then the forum is your oyster. :)

[Joe McCarthy]

Can't see how an English, Welsh and German ancestry = Boer, but if you can prove this then the forum is your oyster. :)

It obviously doesn't make him a Boer, but Boers, unlike Englishmen, do have a strong German genetic component. Tolkien's mix of German-Welsh-English is more typical of an American than an Englishman as well.

[Beorn]

Tolkien's mix of German-Welsh-English is more typical of an American than an Englishman as well.

Does it? Really? Not to sound an eternal antagonist, Joe, but you'll find many Englishmen from England with that ancestry. :)

[Argyll]

I've always known him as an Englishman. But now that I know that he was born in South Africa, I'm having doubts..

[Mercury]

Tolkien's mix of German-Welsh-English is more typical of an American than an Englishman as well.

Well the formula to make an Englishman is a Germanic plus Brythonic Celt. So his ancestry doesn't seem exotic to me. :D

[Logan]

If an English couple has a kid abroad (especially in a part of the British Empire) and the kid comes back to grow up in England, the kid is English. :yawn:

Makes perfect sense.

Hummm. Needs a bit of figuring.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm6qkdib8G1qkebpzo1_500.gif

Not the only one to wonder about.

[Joe McCarthy]

I've always known him as an Englishman. But now that I know that he was born in South Africa, I'm having doubts..

Born in the Orange Free State, no less.

[Beorn]

I've always known him as an Englishman. But now that I know that he was born in South Africa, I'm having doubts..

= Argyll born in America makes Argyll Native American. :D

[Beorn]

Figures that a lot of colonial rejects would argue the toss.

http://www.teetreedesigns.co.uk/Images/ImOut-main.jpg

[Joe McCarthy]

Figures that a lot of colonial rejects would argue the toss.

http://www.teetreedesigns.co.uk/Images/ImOut-main.jpg

I'm overwhelmed by your prim and proper Anglo-Saxon manners. :rolleyes:

At the risk of tooting my horn I think most fair minded people will acknowledge this is an interesting and thought provoking thread. There's no need to act butthurt about it.

[heathen_son]

Let's look at the thread so far and assess whether it has presented anything vaguely worth more than 2 seconds of thought...

Tolkien said he was English.

English people say he was English.

Joe and Argyll are not English.

Hmmmm...

Soon be time for a cup of tea, a plate of beans on toast and a look through "The Times". I wonder whether the snow tomorrow will make it difficult to get to Anglesey? I should really decide on what coat to wear. I don't want to fall off a cliff. What would I do if that were to happen? That reminds me, I must stop and buy some new laces as well...I wonder if that nice looking girl will be behind the till again...when's Dad's birthday? What should I get him? Can I really just buy him beer again...?...

:coffee:

[Electronic God-Man]

There's little in way of arguing that he was anything but an Englishman. He had ONE German ancestor from the 1700's. Both his parents were English and born in England. He was born in South Africa shortly after his parents had moved there. He returned to England permanently at the age of 3. He considered himself an Englishman.

[Joe McCarthy]

[SIZE="3"]
Tolkien said he was English.


From what we saw pasted by the Spaniard earlier he regarded himself as an English subject. So did Disraeli. I don't think anyone will contest that no brainer.


English people say he was English.


It's safe to assume many South Africans regard him at least partially as theirs as well.


Joe and Argyll are not English.


I'm very much an American, but my English ex once told me I am 'more English than the English'. I laughed it off, and still don't take it very seriously, but given some of the Englishmen I've met, especially online, I can with some confidence say I'm more English than some Englishmen.

[heathen_son]

I'm very much an American...

Quite ;)

[Joe McCarthy]

Quite ;)

Naturally. My ancestors were English Puritans. ;)

[Wulfhere]

“I am indeed in English terms a West-midlander at home only in the counties upon the Welsh Marches.”

J.R.R. Tolkien, Letters #165

[Joe McCarthy]

“I am indeed in English terms a West-midlander at home only in the counties upon the Welsh Marches.”

J.R.R. Tolkien, Letters #165

Was Benedict Arnold an Englishman? He regarded himself as such.

[Wulfhere]

Was Benedict Arnold an Englishman? He regarded himself as such.

I don't see why not. He was born in an English colony of English descent and died loyal to the crown.

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't see why not. He was born in an English colony of English descent and died loyal to the crown.

Yet he was a revolutionary for much of the war and his action at Saratoga was the single most decisive military act in the Revolutionary War. He cost the crown the colonies.

[Padre Organtino]

http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.encyclop.data.image.h/h535051a.jpg
Theodor Herzl: Hungarian or Jewish?:rolleyes2:

[Wulfhere]

Yet he was a revolutionary for much of the war and his action at Saratoga was the single most decisive military act in the Revolutionary Wat. He cost the crown the colonies.

It's true he was a traitor for some of his life, but he was born an English subject of the crown and that's how he died.

[Joe McCarthy]

http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.encyclop.data.image.h/h535051a.jpg
Theodor Herzl: Hungarian or Jewish?:rolleyes2:

Herzl was a citizen of Austria-Hungary and until the Dreyfus Affair believed that Jews should assimilate into their host countries. Needless to say, he was never a citizen of a Jewish state, either.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about here. There is obviously something of a dual identity with Herzl just as there was with Disraeli. I think there may be one with Tolkien as well, but simply discussing such matters shouldn't be provoking this kind of sarcasm.

[Joe McCarthy]

It's true he was a traitor for some of his life, but he was born an English subject of the crown and that's how he died.

So then you don't see some basis to question whether he was fully English? It's surely arguable at least.

[Padre Organtino]

Herzl was a citizen of Austria-Hungary and until the Dreyfus Affair believed that Jews should assimilate into their host countries. Needless to say, he was never a citizen of a Jewish state, either.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about here. There is obviously something of a dual identity with Herzl just as there was with Disraeli. I think there may be one with Tolkien as well, but simply discussing such matters shouldn't be provoking this kind of sarcasm.

Thing is Tolkien never identified with South Africa, everyone including Englishmen considered him English and finally he lived there only as a child. I mean using the logic you present Russian guy born in DDR in Soviet offcier's family that later returned back to homeland after reunification is somehow German/not Russian.

[Wulfhere]

Herzl was a citizen of Austria-Hungary and until the Dreyfus Affair believed that Jews should assimilate into their host countries. Needless to say, he was never a citizen of a Jewish state, either.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about here. There is obviously something of a dual identity with Herzl just as there was with Disraeli. I think there may be one with Tolkien as well, but simply discussing such matters shouldn't be provoking this kind of sarcasm.

Tolkien's parents had only moved to South Africa from Birmingham shortly before he was born, and not as settlers either, but rather because his dad had a job there. He returned to Birmingham still an infant and stayed here after his father died. He has no South African descent or cultural influence.

[Wulfhere]

So then you don't see some basis to question whether he was fully English? It's surely arguable at least.

Arguable in Arnold's case, at least. Not Tolkien's though.

[Wulfhere]

Is Senator John McCain Panamanian? He was born there.

[Joe McCarthy]

I mean using the logic you present Russian guy born in DDR in Soviet offcier's family that later returned back to homeland after reunification is somehow German/not Russian.

What logic am I presenting? I haven't taken a position on this poll question.

[Joe McCarthy]

Is Senator John McCain Panamanian? He was born there.

Born in the Canal Zone, which at the time was sovereign US territory. The analogy fails as Tolkien was born in the Orange Free State, which as I'm sure you're aware was an enemy of Great Britain and a belligerent in the Second Boer War.

[Wulfhere]

Born in the Canal Zone, which at the time was sovereign US territory. The analogy fails as Tolkien was born in the Orange Free State, which as I'm sure you're aware was an enemy of Great Britain and a belligerent in the Second Boer War.

People born abroad to English parents, on holiday for example, are still English, regardless of the status of the territory they're born in.

[Joe McCarthy]

Tolkien's parents had only moved to South Africa from Birmingham shortly before he was born, and not as settlers either, but rather because his dad had a job there. He returned to Birmingham still an infant and stayed here after his father died. He has no South African descent or cultural influence.

As we saw from the Tolkien Society that is not the case:


His memories of Africa were slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent

[Wulfhere]

As we saw from the Tolkien Society that is not the case:

A memory of a spider is not a cultural influence. It's a memory of a spider.

[Joe McCarthy]

People born abroad to English parents, on holiday for example, are still English, regardless of the status of the territory they're born in.

Yet Tolkien's African influence was more than a mere holiday.

[Argyll]

Wow, I can't believe people on here would start criticising me because I said I have doubts. Oh wait, yes I can :coffee:

Inever said he wasn't English, just that I have doubts. But, given my situation, I can relate to his. So yes, he's an Englishman, but born in South Africa.

[Wulfhere]

Yet Tolkien's African influence was more than a mere holiday.

His dad had a job in a bank, which, had he not died, would only have been a stage in a long career no doubt all over the place. They weren't even settlers. It was little different in practice from a long holiday.

[Raikaswinþs]

J.R.R. Tolkien: South African or Englishman?.





My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject – which should be sufficient


I don't know how that settles the matter


http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/1/1f/1f522d6f_in-marge-we-trust3.png

[Joe McCarthy]

http://cdn.hotstockmarket.com/1/1f/1f522d6f_in-marge-we-trust3.png

Yes, you established that Tolkien was an English subject, just like Benjamin Disraeli, which incidentally was a rather famous response to some Naziesque German source dealing with whether he was Jewish or some such.

Now, exactly what does that tell us other than that Tolkien was an English subject, which we know already?

[Wulfhere]

The basic test of ethnicity is whether the individual concerned self-identifies as such, and whether other members of the ethnicity recognise him as such. Tolkien fulfills both requirements.

[Raikaswinþs]

Yes, you established that Tolkien was an English subject, just like Benjamin Disraeli, which incidentally was a rather famous response to some Naziesque German source dealing with whether he was Jewish or some such.

I did not establish that, Tokien did


Now, exactly what does that tell us other than that Tolkien was an English subject, which we know already?

You forget to mention here that he also says his great grandfather came to England from Germany in the 18th century and therefore the major part of his descent is purely English. Now you might know better than Biographers, Books and Tolkien himself. But what is the purpose of this thread really? Maybe you want to deprive the english of one of his finest 20th century writers or is it just that time for you flows in a different way than the rets of the mortals and hence you have time to spare debating on things as Tolkien's englishmaniship rather than ..let's say...his body of work.

Give you in idea for you next thread:

Where Imperial Troopers from Star Wars nazis in denial? what sex where they?

[Joe McCarthy]

The basic test of ethnicity is whether the individual concerned self-identifies as such, and whether other members of the ethnicity recognise him as such. Tolkien fulfills both requirements.

Normally, yes. But normally there isn't a conflict of belonging:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/J.R.R._Tolkien


In 2002 Tolkien was voted the ninety-second "greatest Briton" in a poll conducted by the BBC, and in 2004 he was voted thirty-fifth in the SABC3's Great South Africans, the only person to appear in both lists.

You see, South Africans claim him too.

[Wulfhere]

Normally, yes. But normally there isn't a conflict of belonging:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/J.R.R._Tolkien



You see, South Africans claim him too.

They would do, wouldn't they? South African isn't even an ethnicity. The Boers are an ethnicity, but he wasn't one of those.

There's no conflict of belong either where Tolkien himself was concerned, nor where the English are concerned.

[AR89]

I voted SA but I meant English. His culture was fully english, he wasn't a colonial.

[Joe McCarthy]

They would do, wouldn't they? South African isn't even an ethnicity. The Boers are an ethnicity, but he wasn't one of those.

There's no conflict of belong either where Tolkien himself was concerned, nor where the English are concerned.

That South Africans would claim him indicates he had more than a fleeting connection to South Africa and suggests part of Tolkien is South African. You won't find Kipling on a list of greatest Indians, after all, but he is nonetheless connected to India in a way that allows India to consider turning his Mumbai home into a museum and be considered the first Indian writer in the English language. His parents considered themselves 'Anglo-Indians'.

[Beorn]

Boring thread is now very boring.

[Joe McCarthy]

Boring thread is now very boring.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/1605-sound-of-butthurt.png

[Wulfhere]

That South Africans would claim him indicates he had more than a fleeting connection to South Africa and suggests part of Tolkien is South African. You won't find Kipling on a list of greatest Indians, after all, but he is nonetheless connected to India in a way that allows India to consider turning his Mumbai home into a museum and be considered the first Indian writer in the English language. His parents considered themselves 'Anglo-Indians'.

"Being born in a stable does not make one a horse."

Duke of Wellington (who was born in Ireland).

[Beorn]

@ Joe.

Not quite sure why I would be 'butthurt'.

[Joe McCarthy]

"Being born in a stable does not make one a horse."

Duke of Wellington (who was born in Ireland).

Is Wellington on an Irish media list of greatest Irishmen?

[Wulfhere]

Is Wellington on an Irish media list of greatest Irishman?

Are the Irish so pathetic that they have to take other country's famous people as their own?

Whatever the South Africans might like to think, this doesn't affect what Tolkien actually thought. He loved the place so much that he never set foot there again in his life.

[Joe McCarthy]

@ Joe.

Not quite sure why I would be 'butthurt'.

Well, you keep making these sniping comments as if you're upset that I'm stealing your Tolkien from you. I'm just trying to explore an issue here.

At this point I'm inclined to think Tolkien was an Englishman with some argument for him being a bit of both. I'm glad to be having this discussion though.

[Beorn]

Well, you keep making these sniping comments

I'm just dumbfounded that the discussion is being had.

[Wulfhere]

An acquaintance of mine was born in Australia to Irish parents, but when still an infant the whole family decided to move to England. He self-identifies as English and sounds, and acts, fully English. Is he English?

[AR89]

An acquaintance of mine was born in Australia to Irish parents, but when still an infant the whole family decided to move to England. He self-identifies as English and sounds, and acts, fully English. Is he English?

He's english.

I have a friend wich was born in New York, but raised since he was 3 in Italy, he is Italian, not american (his parents are italians).

I want to know what of SA culture there is in Tolkien.

[Joe McCarthy]

I want to know what of SA culture there is in Tolkien.

As with so much in Tolkien lore it's debatable but some see strong South African influences in LoTR. Even the Tolkien Society acknowledges South African influence in his writings. And what is Tolkien if not his writings?

[Wulfhere]

As with so much in Tolkien lore it's debatable but some see strong South African influences in LoTR. Even the Tolkien Society acknowledges South African influence in his writings. And what is Tolkien if not his writings?

A spider is not a cultural inheritance.

Everything about Tolkien's writings is influenced by Germanic and Celtic mythology. Much of it is specifically English, in fact, Mercian (the language of Rohan, for example, is the Mercian dialect of Old English). He even stated quite plainly that his intention was to recreate a mythology for England.

What South African influence is there? Apart from the trivial example of a big scary spider, that is?

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Wulfhere
A spider is not a cultural inheritance.


You seem to be overlooking the rest of the extract from the Tolkien Society:


His memories of Africa were slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent


What South African influence is there?

Just one of any number of things I could cite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien's_influences


Tolkien's father often told him stories of his time in the South African city of Bloemfontein. It has been speculated that the Shire was influenced by the stories Tolkien's father told him as a young boy. The green hilltops of the Shire bear great resemblance to the green and hilly suburbs of Beinsvlei, Hillsboro and Langenhovenpark. Though he left Bloemfontein at a young age, the residents of the Former Free State of South Africa regard the Shire and Tolkien as sons of the city.

[Wulfhere]

You seem to be overlooking the rest of the extract from the Tolkien Society:





Just one of any number of things I could cite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien's_influences

That's pure speculation, not derived from anything Tolkien said, and extremely tenuous at that - hills are hardly uncommon. Everywhere wants to claim the Shire for itself, but the only place on earth Tolkien ever said influenced him was the village of Sarehole, Worcestershire, where he grew up, and which is now part of Birmingham. (See his comments in the Introduction to the 1966 edition of LotR).

[Raikaswinþs]

I think he is a Latin American of Jewish and Turk extraction .

[Beorn]

An acquaintance of mine was born in Australia to Irish parents, but when still an infant the whole family decided to move to England. He self-identifies as English and sounds, and acts, fully English. Is he English?

No. He is a British citizen of Irish descent.

[Osweo]

No. He is a British citizen of Irish descent.

:chin:

I might go with 'Anglicised Irishman'... Citizenship is irrelevant, I've got the Paddy one myself, for lolz.

It's a rather 'case by case' matter, though, I think. We'd have to meet the Paddy bastard to tell. Is he a Catholic? Does he know all the Rebel Songs? His kids could be English, if he married English. If he married another Irish immigrant then they'd just join that army of nationless potato-munching proles we have here. ;)

[Logan]

Henry James b.1843 d.1916?

He was born in the States, but moved to England in 1876. He aquired British citizenship in 1915.


'However British you may be, I am more British still.'
Henry James

[Joe McCarthy]

Henry James b.1843 d.1916?

He was born in the States, but moved to England in 1876. He aquired British citizenship in 1915.

Having read a few of his novels I can say that they feel 'more English than the English' as well. ;)

[Osweo]

'kin immagunts. :tsk:

[Beorn]

It's a rather 'case by case' matter, though, I think.

Of course. You could plonk him in front of me and I'd not know any wiser, but to me, calling him an Englishman takes away something from me calling myself an Englishman. It gets the same response from me as if it were an African, or an Asian, etc...


His kids could be English, if he married English.I'd be a hypocrite to disagree. :D


If he married another Irish immigrant then they'd just join that army of nationless potato-munching proles we have here. ;)He could play for ManU up front. :D


Henry James b.1843 d.1916?

He was born in the States, but moved to England in 1876. He aquired British citizenship in 1915.

Anyone can be a British citizen these days and feel more affinity towards the whole fakey British culture than the British themselves. In the end he is just another example of a wondering Irish 'nationless potato-munching prole' as Wulfhere's example above.

[Eldritch]

As already has been mentioned, a pregnant sow in a stable does not give birth to horses (crude way to put it, but Tolkien is no longer around to be offended).

I spent much of my childhood in Brazil and Chile, and of course the environment one grows up in will always have an influence. But I certainly don't consider myself wholly or partly South American because of the influence existing.

[Logan]

Anyone can be a British citizen these days and feel more affinity towards the whole fakey British culture than the British themselves. In the end he is just another example of a wondering Irish 'nationless potato-munching prole' as Wulfhere's example above.

Some prole. :D Never heard of any Irish ancestry. In any case a compliment to Great Britain. ;)



Henry James was born on 15 April 1843 in New York City, New York State, United States, the second of five children born to theologian Henry James Sr. (1811-1882) and Mary Robertson nee Walsh. Henry James Sr. was one of the most wealthy intellectuals of the time, connected with noted philosophers and transcendentalists as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau, as well as Nathaniel Hawthorne, Thomas Carlyle, and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow; fellow friends and influential thinkers of the time who would have a profound effect on his son's life. Education was of the utmost importance to Henry Sr. and the family spent many years in Europe and the major cities of England, Italy, Switzerland, France, and Germany, his children being tutored in languages and literature.



http://www.online-literature.com/henry_james/

[Beorn]

Never heard of any Irish ancestry.

His grandfather came from Bailieborough, Co. Cavan, Ireland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_James,_Sr.#Forebears)

I presumed Irish descent.


In any case a compliment to Great Britain. ;)

Great Britain is not the discussion here. :)

[Brynhild]

I voted English. As has already been mentioned, his parents were English and being 3 years old on the family's return to England, he would've been too young for any telling influence on his upbringing in South Africa. As for his references in LOTR, much of it is derived from Celtic and Norse/Germanic mythology. This next suggestion of mine is speculation, but the Shire would remind me of any quaint village in England.

[Logan]

His grandfather came from Bailieborough, Co. Cavan, Ireland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_James,_Sr.#Forebears)

I presumed Irish descent.



Great Britain is not the discussion here. :)


Thanks for the correction. I was not aware of any Irish ancestry. I think his question would be more more an American origin.

You might wish to correct as well, but I think Great Britain includes England. It use to. Perhaps, I should have been more specific. :D

[Beorn]

You might wish to correct as well, but I think Great Britain includes England. It use to. Perhaps, I should have been more specific. :D

It was more to do with your quote.


'However British you may be, I am more British still.'

Henry James

:D

[Osweo]

As already has been mentioned, a pregnant sow in a stable does not give birth to horses (crude way to put it, but Tolkien is no longer around to be offended).

I spent much of my childhood in Brazil and Chile, and of course the environment one grows up in will always have an influence. But I certainly don't consider myself wholly or partly South American because of the influence existing.

Fuck off, Panchito.

[Wulfhere]

I voted English. As has already been mentioned, his parents were English and being 3 years old on the family's return to England, he would've been too young for any telling influence on his upbringing in South Africa. As for his references in LOTR, much of it is derived from Celtic and Norse/Germanic mythology. This next suggestion of mine is speculation, but the Shire would remind me of any quaint village in England.

You're quite correct about the village, and the village in question is Sarehole, where Tolkien grew up. He says so in his Introduction to the 1966 edition of LotR. It's now part of Birmingham, and in 1969 Tolkien donated part of the proceeds from LotR to the restoration of its water mill.

[Aviane]

English/Welsh and German descent.

Still he is a Englishman not matter what.

[Argyll]

English/Welsh and German descent.

Still he is a Englishman not matter what.

Just curious, since I am all British descent, does that make me eligable to be British? Osweo calls me overseas British, but I'm curious as to how people would think of me in the sense of how they are calling J.R.R. Tolkein English/British.

[Joe McCarthy]

Just curious, since I am all British descent, does that make me eligable to be British? Osweo calls me overseas British, but I'm curious as to how people would think of me in the sense of how they are calling J.R.R. Tolkein English/British.

There is more reason for Osweo to call Tolkien South African than to call you British. That is for sure.

[Wulfhere]

British is a nationality, not an ethnicity.

[Osweo]

British is a nationality, not an ethnicity.
I'm a member of the English nation, so English is my nationality. British is my citizenship.

However, British is more than that. It's a geographical term, most obviously. And that has a bearing on the mental and spiritual side of the national identities the island holds. The look and feel and smell of this island and its specific regions has shaped us as we have shaped it.

Additionally, there IS an ethnic aspect to it. Though the individual British nations come from different parental stocks in an essentialist genetic view of linguistic matters, we DO share blood as well. It's thus a supra-ethnic category, higher than and beside English, Scotch and Welsh.

There are even more sides to it as well. THis matter is NOT one that you can exhaust with a few simplistic soundbites.

[mvbeleg]

J.R.R.T.: a study of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, 1897 - 1973

A portrait of an enduring author illustrated by his own drawings plus family photographs, with reminiscences from his children, commentary by Tom Shippey and Verlyn Flieger, and excerpts from his works read by Dame Judi Dench.

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Youtube Video No. 7 Not Intact

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[Albion]

Tolkien's own opinion:


I am not a German, though my surname is German (anglicized like Cerdic)
...I have inherited with my surname nothing that originally belonged to it in language or culture, and after 200 years the ‘blood’ of Saxony and Poland is probably a negligible physical ingredient.

English and Welsh
J.R.R. Tolkien

[Albion]

Just curious, since I am all British descent, does that make me eligable to be British? Osweo calls me overseas British, but I'm curious as to how people would think of me in the sense of how they are calling J.R.R. Tolkein English/British.

I think of you like you as a "Brito-American" (I would say Anglo-American but it's not a good term, it suggests only a connection with England when in fact it usually means a connection to the greater British Isles).
A few things are different, but Americans are hardly alien.

[Ghost Knight]

There are certain things Tolkien experienced in South Africa that made him more of a South Afikaaner than an Englishman. I wonder if he would have cared so much about the English language, English nation, English culture if he had been actually born in England. Probably not, he was an outsider looking in which caught his interest.

[Frigga]

Tolkien feels English in his writing style, and I feel that he was an Englishman. But I do still think that his time in South Africa helped influence him. For example his love of trees was supposed to have been nurtured by his childhood in South Africa.

[Odin]

English.

[Wanderer]

Englishman with some small amount of German ancestry.

[Smeagol]

Tolkien was obviously an Englishman. His parents were both English (well he had some distant German ancestry on his father's side) and he was only born in South Africa because his father headed an office of a British bank there. He only lived there for about the first four years of his life and had no real connection to the country.

[QUICAS]

From Wiki:



http://cslewisjrrtolkien.classicalautographs.com/jrrtolkien/JRRTolkien-Writing.jpg

Born in South Africa, is a south african.

[Smeagol]

Born in South Africa, is a south african.

That's pretty poorly thought out logic. Is the child of african immigrants born in England an Englishman?

[Bobby Martnen]

Born in South Africa, is a south african.

This is Fluffy.

http://studnet.su/kitten.jpg

Fluffy was born in a horse stable. Is Fluffy a horse?

[Bobby Martnen]

Tolkien was an Englishman born abroad, just like Boris Johnson.

[Dandelion]

Based on his biography, English.

[QUICAS]

That's pretty poorly thought out logic. Is the child of african immigrants born in England an Englishman?

Yes, here in Brazil we think that way. We are an immigrant country and we have thousands of illegal angolans, koreans, senegaleses, moçambicans, bolivians, venezuelans, haitians, chineses, cape verdeans, levantines, nigerians and gambians here. Their kids are considered brazilian.

[QUICAS]

We also think that mexicans in USA are americans and africans/Indians in Europe are europeans. The birth place is what matter in this part of the world.

[QUICAS]

Also brazilians born outside are not brazilians. They are considered of brazilian ancestry/blood, brazilians only if they have our documents.